Kisame vs Kakashi

[the_ultimate_hokage]

Who would win?

[Tsugaga]

Thsi would be a great battle but I am not about to argue on this one again. This thread has already been posted before so it is against the rules to post it again.

[rush rush]

Kakakashi would get his but wooped theres nothing to debate about

[Tsugaga]

U have to think about this one a little cause it would be close. Just think about this first-Water vs electricity.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I would say Kisame

[rush rush]

Kisame by far

[WhiteFang]

^^You have something to back that up?

I personally feel that this is a very very close battle. I'll need to think some more before I pick someone. But Kakashi has lightning, he could electrocute Kisame. And Kakashi has many other things too... along with the brains which Kisame clearly does not have too much of.

[rush rush]

Kisame has monster chakra and plus he has many jutsu.And Kisame could just drown Kakashi

[Tsugaga]

Yeah Kisame is really strong and has his water jutsus. Skilled water users are very powerful seein how they can do whatever with the water. But Kakashi also has water plus his electricity. It would be very easy for him to do a Water and electricity combo.

[WhiteFang]

^^ Yeah you have a point. Plus, Kakashi's summon, the dogs, are an earth summon, and earth>water. That's also something in his favour. And Kisame is not very fast, whereas Kakashi is, if he can restrain him even for a little while with the dogs, he may even use the black-hole. Another thing is that Kakashi won't be slapped around in the water department, he's quite skilled with Suiton himself and has shown the ability to copy Kisame's jutsu and counter him with it. Add to that the Lightning with which he can electrocute Kisame. Plus the sharingan is always helpful. Kakashi may edge this. But Kisame's chakra reserves are an issue. We are also yet to see the full-extent of his powers. So I really don't know...

[itachi0110]

^^ Yeah you have a point. Plus, Kakashi's summon, the dogs, are an earth summon, and earth>water. That's also something in his favour. And Kisame is not very fast, whereas Kakashi is, if he can restrain him even for a little while with the dogs, he may even use the black-hole. Another thing is that Kakashi won't be slapped around in the water department, he's quite skilled with Suiton himself and has shown the ability to copy Kisame's jutsu and counter him with it. Add to that the Lightning with which he can electrocute Kisame. Plus the sharingan is always helpful. Kakashi may edge this. But Kisame's chakra reserves are an issue. We are also yet to see the full-extent of his powers. So I really don't know...



think of this a huge river, i don't think earth is going to have one on this favor, also just because kakashi has lightning that doesn't mean anything, kakashi can copy kisames jutsus all he wants but sooner or later he will run out of chakra, also kakashi can't get close to kismae as long as he has his sword by his side.

[Kyoto]

Well all this talk about kakashi can't win due to his lack of chakra is over since we now know kakashi can store up chakra. which give him a large amount than what he would normal started with.

[Suicide]

Well Kisame sword can absorb chakra then kakashi cant do the Lightning Blade but he can also do the Mangekyou Sharingan so i say that Kakashi will winhttp://i258.photobucket.com/albums/hh254/Hakaisha96/AkatsukiNaruto.pnghttp://i329.photobucket.com/albums/l391/TayyHatake/EvilNaruto1.png

[Midnight-Blood]

kisame. kakashi have to use his jutsus and sharingan at the same time, so he wont really last long in the battle if u also put into consideration kisame's sword being able to shave off chakra. and i dont think tat kisame is in the akatsuki just for show...

[MinatoNamikaze]

Kakashi simply isint kage level, where as Kisame is beleived to be

[WhiteFang]

think of this a huge river, i don't think earth is going to have one on this favor, also just because kakashi has lightning that doesn't mean anything, kakashi can copy kisames jutsus all he wants but sooner or later he will run out of chakra, also kakashi can't get close to kismae as long as he has his sword by his side.
Earth > Water. Fact. And Kakashi really has a good hold on the earth element and water as well.
Another fact I'd like to state is that Kakashi's speed of seal formation is much faster than Kisame's from what we have seen in their last encounter.
Which gives Kakashi the added advantage of using the Suiton attacks itself faster than Kisame. Kakashi can actually out-pace Kisame. Both in terms of physical speed and agility and seal formation speed.
Kisame has also shown no ability to counter genjutsu. As I've rechecked, he gets stuck in the genjutsu cast by Kurenei along with Itachi and is unable to attack Asuma or counter the genjutsu. Itachi is the one who uses the genjutsu counter and saves his ass.
This puts him in a fairly bad situation against the sharingan. Kakashi has genjutsu at his disposal and also offcourse the other general advantages offered by the sharingan. And from what I've seen, I'd also go out and say Kakashi is smarter than Kisame.

Kakashi simply isint kage level, where as Kisame is beleived to be
Woah. That's a pretty flat assumption. There isn't even a remote indication that Kisame is Kage-level.
And actually, I can't begin to define who's Kage level and who's not. Its relative and depends on a lot of things. This statement is very ambiguous.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Woah. That's a pretty flat assumption. There isn't even a remote indication that Kisame is Kage-level.
And actually, I can't begin to define who's Kage level and who's not. Its relative and depends on a lot of things. This statement is very ambiguous


Well actually all memebrs of Akatsuki have been of kage level. Why would Itachis partner be any different? Besides, all kakashi has to do is use his black hole tech and so far kisame has nothing to defend against it.

[WhiteFang]

Well actually all memebrs of Akatsuki have been of kage level. Why would Itachis partner be any different?
Wait wait. Hold. You misinterpreted me I guess. I understand coz I probably wasn't typing coherently at 1 am last night. Anyways, I'll give an example:
Gaara is the Kazekage. So he's officially Kaze level too.
But Deidara beat him, albeit a little unfairly, but using sound strategy.
Itachi creamed Deidara in less than 5 seconds. He can do the same to Kisame.
Kisame, if he fights Gaara, will be at a huge disadvantage against the sand. Same funda of earth>water. Also, there is the fact that Gaara can maneuver as well as him, if not better.
So a straight of distinction cannot be made by stating whose Kage level and who is not.
Saying that Kakashi isn't Kage level is just not right. Kakashi is an all over better shinobi than Gaara, his Raiton element is also greater than Gaara's earth, and he's got tons of more experience. You could very well make him sand's Kazekage. We decide shinobi battles based on the skill set and situation. Just saying Kage level or no Kage level makes no sense at all.

Because there are many many shinobi who are fit to be Kage's. For different reasons. It doesn't only have to do with strength, although it is also a very important factor. Look at Tsunade, she's probably not that strong, but she's resourceful and is saving so many Konoha shinobi. She's protecting the village, exactly something which a Kage should be capable of doing. Top that off with good strategic brains. Going by those parameters, you and I know that Kisame would be a pathetic Kage.
A certain bar of strength is a necessity to be a Kage and I agree. Many shinobi fit in that category. But along with that, resourcefulness and brains and general governance capacity and ability to handle emergencies are also key to a Kage. The most well balanced shinobi are Kage's, not ones with brute force. Shikamaru is the most glaring example that strength only is nowhere near a yardstick to measure a shinobi's skill and ability to win battles.

Besides, all kakashi has to do is use his black hole tech and so far kisame has nothing to defend against it.

Umm.. yeah. ;) Especially now that he can aim it much better, control its size better and lock on with deadly accuracy on even fast moving objects like missiles.

[Smiley]

I don't think earth > water is a huge factor here, hence Kakashi doesn't have any earth element techniques that can match or protect him from Kisame's high-level Suiton attacks.
He would be on constant pressure, having to avoid Kisame's rapid tsunamis ,sharks constantly attacking him from below and superhuman sword strikes.

On the other side, Kisame's samehada can absorb any attacks that Kakashi throws at him. Close combat is out of question, considering Kisame's monsterous strength and sword mastery that beat Base Gai. We also have pre-skip Itachi's statement that it would take "some time" for Kisame to beat Kakashi.

Kakashi's best hope here would be to use Kamui right off the bat, but so far we've only seen it work on missle-sized objects moving in straight path forward that couldn't put any resistance to being sucked-up.

So yeah, I'm definitely leaning towards Kisame.

[WhiteFang]

I don't think earth > water is a huge factor here, hence Kakashi doesn't have any earth element techniques that can match or protect him from Kisame's high-level Suiton attacks. He would be on constant pressure, having to avoid Kisame's rapid tsunamis ,sharks constantly attacking him from below and superhuman sword strikes.
It is actually. Elemental advantage is a huge factor.
That aside, Kakashi does have earth based attacks, Doryuuheki being a good one. He used it against Pein, I think. And Shinjuu Zanshu is nearly always useful for Kakashi, to conceal himself, and as we've seen, lay down traps even.
Also, your saying like, Kakashi will be slapped around in the Suiton department, which is clearly not the case. As I've mentioned above already, Kakashi's speed of seal formation is really fast and he can use several high level Suiton techs. himself. He can actually be faster in executing the attack.
Plus in any case, he has the sharingan advantage. And like against Zabuza and also Kisame himself, Kakashi has shown the ability to predict seals and release the attack simultaneously.
Kakashi undoubtedly also has a strong affinity for water I just don't see him being under any sort of "pressure"


On the other side, Kisame's samehada can absorb any attacks that Kakashi throws at him. Close combat is out of question, considering Kisame's monsterous strength and sword mastery that beat Base Gai. We also have pre-skip Itachi's statement that it would take "some time" for Kisame to beat Kakashi.
Do you have an proof that Samehada can absorb all attacks?
It can absorb chakra, but what of elementally recomposed chakra?
Kisame's sword can't possibly absorb the elements itself.
Pre-skip statements are as good as useless because Kakashi has trained too. He's much different now.
Also, I'd again like to point out the genjutsu factor. Kisame has shown no ability whatsoever to dispel genjutsu.
Another thing is that Kisame till now has shown only water-based attacks.
Kakashi has numerous methods to just electrocute the fellow. Raiton Kage Bunshin being a good idea. If he can fool and get Pein, he can get Kisame.


Kakashi's best hope here would be to use Kamui right off the bat, but so far we've only seen it work on missle-sized objects moving in straight path forward that couldn't put any resistance to being sucked-up.

Actually, the size as Kakashi's talk already indicated, is directly proportional to the amount of chakra he has. That's why he'd clearly stated that the full body was out of question. And lord knows how little chakra he had left, coz it was already cut down to half when Choji and Chouza arrived and after that even, Kakashi used plenty of attacks. And truth be told, they were useless only and only because it was Pein.
And for now, his aim has definitely improved. Basically, its not about straight path, its more about a projectile whose path he can predict.
But really, if he can suck up an entire explosion, he can suck up plenty of things and his timing has improved.

I for one, know just too little about Kisame's fighting prowess to lean towards him in any shape or form, monstrous chakra and all. He's too much a one-dimensional opponent for Kakashi's versatility. If anything Kisame will be under constant pressure. Because he can either defend with Samehada, and Suiton offense against Kakashi just won't be that effective at all. Kakashi will eventually find a opening.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Good points all round. I will keep mine brief.
I'm leaning to Kisame on this one
Plainly and simply it comes down to the monstrous chakra that has been talked about.
Kakashi would be a fool to try and match Kisame in water techs. Kisame has this element so heavily in his favor it would be suicide for Kakashi to try and match it.
AS for elements remember Kisame Vs Gai going underground is meaningless as it will b covered quickly in a giant lake and because of that most earth techs are kinda pointless.
Now it comes down to lightning. It does need to ask if Samehada can absorb the chakra of the lightning clone and nullify it or not. As for Raikiri it is a last ditch attempt especially as Kisame can avoid it by going underwater.
As for the black hole. that is a double edged swod and since we don't know exactly how it works there is still the possiblitiy it is vunerable to Samehada. not only that but it leaves Kakashi open to attack and considering the number of long range and extra attacks kisame has it may not be the greatest method to use.
Now when it comes to intelligence like Gai people underestimate kisame. He isn't stupid by any means and showed a good use of water clones to trap Neji, Tenten and Lee. not only that but he is highly specialised in water techs and can use them in some deadly combination's and due to his own physiology can even use t to protect himself.

So I say Kisame for now due to the monstrous chakra

[L]

kakashi hands down

im new to this so do i need to explain why

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

preferably yeah. Just so people can see why you hold to that outcome.

[MinatoNamikaze]

^^ it helps to explain your reasoning yes

[WhiteFang]

Good points all round. I will keep mine brief.
I'm leaning to Kisame on this one
Oh gosh. I'm outnumbered and outgunned. :p

Plainly and simply it comes down to the monstrous chakra that has been talked about.
Kakashi would be a fool to try and match Kisame in water techs. Kisame has this element so heavily in his favor it would be suicide for Kakashi to try and match it.
Actually, it wouldn't be as much as suicide as you think.
Kisame for one, has himself commented that Kakashi has come a long way in Suiton. Second, Kakashi's speed of seal formation is much faster than Kisame's. And third, up until now, I have seen no jutsu whatsoever from Kisame, except that mini Tsunami, that outclasses Kakashi. And as we've seen it's not that difficult to dodge and Kakashi doesn't suck at taijutsu. He's very good actually, simply on account of the fact that he doesn't waste movement.
And what of the sharingan? That in itself gives Kakashi and edge in terms of both dodging, movement and also copying and releasing techs. simultaneously.

AS for elements remember Kisame Vs Gai going underground is meaningless as it will b covered quickly in a giant lake and because of that most earth techs are kinda pointless.
Kakashi will, in all probability, notice the seals which Kisame uses and won't make a stupid mistake like that. But Doryuuheki will still be far from pointless, especially if he uses it to block the water. But I agree with you, I haven't seen a earth Vs water battle in detail before, so its difficult to comment.

Now it comes down to lightning. It does need to ask if Samehada can absorb the chakra of the lightning clone and nullify it or not. As for Raikiri it is a last ditch attempt especially as Kisame can avoid it by going underwater.
Underwater for Kisame will be suicide. Actually, like I've said, with Kakashi's skill, he just needs to get a safe distance away and use a Raiton: Kage bunshin and its game-over for Kisame. And that makes the minimum outcome of this battle a draw, as Kakashi can atleast, electrocute Kisame along with himself if comes to it.

As for the black hole. that is a double edged swod and since we don't know exactly how it works there is still the possiblitiy it is vunerable to Samehada. not only that but it leaves Kakashi open to attack and considering the number of long range and extra attacks kisame has it may not be the greatest method to use.
I'm thinking more on the lines of Samehada being vulnerable to black hole. And if Kakashi has the element of surprise, he can probably suck up the sword itself.

Now when it comes to intelligence like Gai people underestimate kisame. He isn't stupid by any means and showed a good use of water clones to trap Neji, Tenten and Lee. not only that but he is highly specialised in water techs and can use them in some deadly combination's and due to his own physiology can even use it to protect himself.
I'm not underestimating Kisame's intelligence, but I'm pretty sure as of now that Kakashi is smarter than him. If he can trick Pein twice, I don't see how Kisame is trouble. But my main issue right now remains that we have hardly seen Kisame battle and its very very difficult to comment on his techs. and such.

So I say Kisame for now due to the monstrous chakra
Chakra or not, if he's electrocuted, he's dead.

[0ba]

Well actually all memebrs of Akatsuki have been of kage level. Why would Itachis partner be any different? Besides, all kakashi has to do is use his black hole tech and so far kisame has nothing to defend against it.So, Konan and Hidan are kage level too? :S


Kisame, if he fights Gaara, will be at a huge disadvantage against the sand. Same funda of earth>water.Nah, we've seen what happens when Gaara's sand gets wet, it gets heavy and all, then he can't use it. I think that was in the last filler arc or so.


Plainly and simply it comes down to the monstrous chakra that has been talked about.Not really, monstrous chakra only helps for stamina, and from what we've seen from Kakashi recently, I'd say he has quite alot of chakra too, and no matter how much chakra you have, a Raikiri to the heart would still kill you.

Kakashi would be a fool to try and match Kisame in water techs. Kisame has this element so heavily in his favor it would be suicide for Kakashi to try and match it.Why? Suiton techs are only difficult and chakra consuming when there is no source, and as you said, Kisame would create the huge lake, so, Kakashi could easily copy his hand seals with his sharingan and deflect his attacks with his own. Kakashi's good at water techs too, you know.

AS for elements remember Kisame Vs Gai going underground is meaningless as it will b covered quickly in a giant lake and because of that most earth techs are kinda pointless.
Now it comes down to lightning. It does need to ask if Samehada can absorb the chakra of the lightning clone and nullify it or not. As for Raikiri it is a last ditch attempt especially as Kisame can avoid it by going underwater.I don't know if the Samehada can absorb recomposed chakra, but we do know that when you dispel the clone, it somehow paralyses you, how does the Samehada suck up chakra, by shaving, right? Has it been shown to absorb chakra by blocking elemental attacks?
And going underwater might be costly, the Raikiri paralyses when the attack isn't direct, and water conducts electricity, so, that might put Kisame at a disadvantage.

As for the black hole. that is a double edged swod and since we don't know exactly how it works there is still the possiblitiy it is vunerable to Samehada. not only that but it leaves Kakashi open to attack and considering the number of long range and extra attacks kisame has it may not be the greatest method to use.It leaves him open to attack? Where do you get that from? :S
The Samehada can't absorb a black hole, it isn't chakra, it's a black hole! Kisame would probably just get sucked in with it.

Now when it comes to intelligence like Gai people underestimate kisame. He isn't stupid by any means and showed a good use of water clones to trap Neji, Tenten and Lee. not only that but he is highly specialised in water techs and can use them in some deadly combination's and due to his own physiology can even use t to protect himself.

So I say Kisame for now due to the monstrous chakraWell, I'm sure Kakashi wouldn't get trapped in the water prison, he's too fast and smart for that. And Kakashi's got good defense too, he could fool Kisame with an electric clone, or use the earth wall.

Kakashi ftw, he has doton and raiton techniques, he's much more intelligent, and he can use genjutsu, which Kisame is very poor at dispelling.

[MinatoNamikaze]

So, Konan and Hidan are kage level too? :S

Well yes IMO. There better than kakashi so that means they are better than ANBU. The next level above ANBU is Hokage. They wouldnt be strong kage level, right at the lower end but kage level for sure

Not really, monstrous chakra only helps for stamina, and from what we've seen from Kakashi recently, I'd say he has quite alot of chakra too, and no matter how much chakra you have, a Raikiri to the heart would still kill you.

Agreed

It leaves him open to attack? Where do you get that from? :S
The Samehada can't absorb a black hole, it isn't chakra, it's a black hole! Kisame would probably just get sucked in with it.

Ya samehada would not be able to black the black hole.

Well, I'm sure Kakashi wouldn't get trapped in the water prison, he's too fast and smart for that. And Kakashi's got good defense too, he could fool Kisame with an electric clone, or use the earth wall.

Agreed again

Kakashi ftw, he has doton and raiton techniques, he's much more intelligent, and he can use genjutsu, which Kisame is very poor at dispelling.

One last time I agree :D

[SAM#1]

Well yes IMO. There better than kakashi so that means they are better than ANBU. The next level above ANBU is Hokage. They wouldnt be strong kage level, right at the lower end but kage level for sure

:D

What makes you think Hidan is better than Kakashi? If it wasn't for Kakuzu Hidan would have been beaten by Asuma after he had his head chopped off (he doesn't need to die to be beaten)

I'm very much on the fence with this one. Both have a lot going for and against them, so I think I'll keep out of it for now

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Actually, it wouldn't be as much as suicide as you think.
Kisame for one, has himself commented that Kakashi has come a long way in Suiton. Second, Kakashi's speed of seal formation is much faster than Kisame's. And third, up until now, I have seen no jutsu whatsoever from Kisame, except that mini Tsunami, that outclasses Kakashi. And as we've seen it's not that difficult to dodge and Kakashi doesn't suck at taijutsu. He's very good actually, simply on account of the fact that he doesn't waste movement.
Kakashi's water techs are good. But when you consider the advantages gained by kisame with water then it makes no sense for Kakashi to use water. kisame has shown what appear to be quite chakra consuming tech (i mean creating his own lake) so copying them would be kinda useless as Kakashi would simply be wasting chakra using them to Kisames advantage.
And what of the sharingan? That in itself gives Kakashi and edge in terms of both dodging, movement and also copying and releasing techs. simultaneously.
Again double edged sword. this quickly drains chakra and means that Kakashi has to win even more quickly. Everyone automatically puts the sharingan user above others but remember it has got alot of chakra sucking from it's host and so isn't always the best answer.


Kakashi will, in all probability, notice the seals which Kisame uses and won't make a stupid mistake like that. But Doryuuheki will still be far from pointless, especially if he uses it to block the water. But I agree with you, I haven't seen a earth Vs water battle in detail before, so its difficult to comment.
Yeah due to the fact that it is way underground I don't see the point in many of Kakashis earth techs.


Underwater for Kisame will be suicide. Actually, like I've said, with Kakashi's skill, he just needs to get a safe distance away and use a Raiton: Kage bunshin and its game-over for Kisame. And that makes the minimum outcome of this battle a draw, as Kakashi can atleast, electrocute Kisame along with himself if comes to it.
Actually again it comes down to Samehada. It absorbs chakra and we still aren't sure how far that ability extends. So for the sake of argment lets say it couldn't stop a lightning clone that explodes in the water.
Then all Kisame has to do is Jump........or keep his distance. either one will avoid or minimize exposure to electricity

I'm thinking more on the lines of Samehada being vulnerable to black hole. And if Kakashi has the element of surprise, he can probably suck up the sword itself.
It leaves him open to attack? Where do you get that from? :S
The Samehada can't absorb a black hole, it isn't chakra, it's a black hole! Kisame would probably just get sucked in with it.
Ok this one is also hard. we don't know how the MS techs work. or their vunerability/advantages against samehada. Are they chakra and can Samehada stop them.
(It's also not a black hole he creates as if it were a true black hole kakashi would suck up the world)

I'm not underestimating Kisame's intelligence, but I'm pretty sure as of now that Kakashi is smarter than him. If he can trick Pein twice, I don't see how Kisame is trouble.
I think people overestimate Kakashi at times.
Kakashi is experienced
Kakashi is insightful
kakashi is the most intelligent character........hardly
kakashi is god at analysing and exploiting but that doesn't automatically make him smarter then everyone else and if they underestimate someone like kisame then they are in trouble.

But my main issue right now remains that we have hardly seen Kisame battle and its very very difficult to comment on his techs. and such.
True:lol:

[QUOTE=0ba;748148]
Not really, monstrous chakra only helps for stamina, and from what we've seen from Kakashi recently, I'd say he has quite alot of chakra too, and no matter how much chakra you have, a Raikiri to the heart would still kill you.
Chakra is what you use to move, perform jutsus, do just about anything. kakashi has way less then kisame.
This means that kisame can fight longer, perform more jutsu, and perform more chakra intensive jutsu before he keel over like kakashi has done many times in the past.

[MinatoNamikaze]

What makes you think Hidan is better than Kakashi? If it wasn't for Kakuzu Hidan would have been beaten by Asuma after he had his head chopped off (he doesn't need to die to be beaten)

I'm very much on the fence with this one. Both have a lot going for and against them, so I think I'll keep out of it for now

Youre actually probably right. I was thinking about the pair of them though. Hidan isint smart enough to be kage level but he is still ANBU level for sure. Kakuzu on the other hand definetly is though.

[WhiteFang]

Well, I could've replied to your points again in quotes.. but as I'm observing, lack of enough info is making us go round in circles. I'll just address a few things though:


Kakashi's water techs are good. But when you consider the advantages gained by kisame with water then it makes no sense for Kakashi to use water. kisame has shown what appear to be quite chakra consuming tech (i mean creating his own lake) so copying them would be kinda useless as Kakashi would simply be wasting chakra using them to Kisames advantage.
No no wait. When Kisame builds an entire lake, then there will be water all around and Kakashi will not be wasting chakra to use water techs. as the water will already be there. He'll just use the chakra required for the tech. itself. And Kakashi does have decent chakra. Plus his speed of seal formation is faster, so the situation will be such that if they both do a Suikodan, since Kakashi already knows the tech. and will fore-predict it seeing the hand-seals, he'll release his own faster.

I think people overestimate Kakashi at times.
Kakashi is experienced
Kakashi is insightful
kakashi is the most intelligent character........hardly
kakashi is god at analysing and exploiting but that doesn't automatically make him smarter then everyone else and if they underestimate someone like kisame then they are in trouble.
:lol: :lol:
Like noooo, Hatake ain't smarter than everyone else, but he's very good at analyzing stuff and can generally outsmart people during the course of a battle. I haven't exactly seen Kisame's battle brain application except being a yes-man/fish/shark to Itachi and using brute strength.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Well, I could've replied to your points again in quotes.. but as I'm observing, lack of enough info is making us go round in circles. I'll just address a few things though:
Agreed. I think we need to see more of Kisame to conclude this debate.

No no wait. When Kisame builds an entire lake, then there will be water all around and Kakashi will not be wasting chakra to use water techs. as the water will already be there. He'll just use the chakra required for the tech. itself. And Kakashi does have decent chakra. Plus his speed of seal formation is faster, so the situation will be such that if they both do a Suikodan, since Kakashi already knows the tech. and will fore-predict it seeing the hand-seals, he'll release his own faster.
And then what does Kisame do.....Go underwater.......problem solved.....Remember that some of Kisames are used to attack from under the water (Like the sharks).
Also I went back and watched the fight with Gai again. Kisame isn't as slow as he seems. He was easily beating Gai with a combination of quick moves and brute strength.
As for Hand signs kisames Jutsu's aeem to require very little in the way of them (the most was three or four) while Kakashi's sometimes require more.
So Kakashi doesn't have as big a speed advantage as it seems in either combat of hand signs and due to the fact that Kisame can afford to waste more chakra making his attacks bigger and stronger. Water isn't the best thing or Kakashi to use as Kisame can just overwhelm Kakashis.

:lol: :lol:
Like noooo, Hatake ain't smarter than everyone else, but he's very good at analyzing stuff and can generally outsmart people during the course of a battle. I haven't exactly seen Kisame's battle brain application except being a yes-man/fish/shark to Itachi and using brute strength.
Actually.
Kisame showed good use of Water Clones. He created them quickly to take an opponent off guard
Kisame showed he was more then capable of keeping up with an opponents moves and counterrig them
Kisame also is good at using speed and monstrous strength to do some blistering counterattacks.
Kisame has shown that he is probably a very capable and deadly opponent

[Suicide]

kakashi would win easily because water conducts electricity so of kisame did any water jutsu he will just use the lightning blade to turn kisame into a fishstick

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

kakashi would win easily because water conducts electricity so of kisame did any water jutsu he will just use the lightning blade to turn kisame into a fishstick

2 problems.
1/If I remember correctly the further away you are the less you will get shocked even by electricity running through water
2/Kisame and water users in general doesn't always need to physically touch the water he is using for a water tech