Kakashi and Guy vs. Itachi (OFFICIAL THREAD)

[rush rush]

I know everybody probably will think that Itachi would win cause his mangekou sharingan but Kakashi's mangekou sharingan, and Guy's speed, gates, tajutsu, would be to much for Itachi's genjutsu to handle!

[darkninjaIII]

kakashi and guy would win

[rush rush]

kakashi and guy would winFor sure

[MinatoNamikaze]

No way we already had this fight, Itahci would clober them. No contest. Kakshi's sharingan sucks, and sharingan cancels out Taijutsu. Sorry Guys, Itachi has this without even breaking a sweat, that is unless you guys think that Kakshi and Gai can beat Orochimaru ofcousev.v

[Muffin]

No way we already had this fight, Itahci would clober them. No contest. Kakshi's sharingan sucks, and sharingan cancels out Taijutsu. Sorry Guys, Itachi has this without even breaking a sweat, that is unless you guys think that Kakshi and Gai can beat Orochimaru ofcousev.v

No Gai never fought Itachi. Gai and Kakashi would take this. Either Gai or Kakashi hold Itachi and he gets curbstomped, run through, or loses his head through implosion. Gai won't get beaten by the sharingan, and Kakashi has learnt how to fight Itachi.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No way we already had this fight, Itahci would clober them. No contest. Kakshi's sharingan sucks, and sharingan cancels out Taijutsu. Sorry Guys, Itachi has this without even breaking a sweat, that is unless you guys think that Kakshi and Gai can beat Orochimaru ofcousev.v

Itachi's genjusu works on one person, and only one person, being an Itachi fanatic you should know this.
Therefore, whoever Itachi doesn't put in genjusu will kill him.
Secondly, Itachi is nowhere NEAR as strong as you think he is.
He can't beat Minato, he can't beat Sarutobi, he can't beat Pein, he can't beat Madara, he can't beat Shodamine, he can't beat Jiriaya. He can't. You seriously need to control your fandom because as of right now you are the single most pro-biased debater on the forum.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

And in regards to your Kakashi's Mangekyo comment.
You're dead wrong.
Kakashi's Mangekyo is the strongest technique ever made.

[MinatoNamikaze]

No Gai never fought Itachi. Gai and Kakashi would take this. Either Gai or Kakashi hold Itachi and he gets curbstomped, run through, or loses his head through implosion. Gai won't get beaten by the sharingan, and Kakashi has learnt how to fight Itachi.

Were talking about Itachi. He beat oro in 5 seconds twice!! Kakshi and guy will dodge Tsukiyomi but not Amateratsu and certainly not sasuno. But i gues that assumes that Kakashi and Guy could beat Orochimaru easily then?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Were talking about Itachi. He beat oro in 5 seconds twice!! Kakshi and guy will dodge Tsukiyomi but not Amateratsu and certainly not sasuno. But i gues that assumes that Kakashi and Guy could beat Orochimaru easily then?

Ameratsu damn near blinds Itachi, and susano kills him, so by all means continue to ignore that fact but that is what it is.
Kakashi and Guy can't beat Orochimaru, but that can beat Itachi.
Itachi's main focus is genjutsu, genjutsu that affects ONE person.

[Muffin]

Orochimaru is a different story. You assume he was weak compared to Itachi, but it was Itachi and Itachi alone who made him look like a joke. He was one of most powerful shinobi in the Naruto world. There wasn't anyone else who could've beaten Orochimaru like Itachi did. But Itachi can't do that to everyone. Especially people who have fought him before and won't look into his eyes.

Itachi will get crushed by the gates, Kakashi's mangekyo will suck up Amaterasu and Kakashi and Gai won't get caught by Susanoo they're both not slow enough to be caught by an exhausted mess of a person Itachi becomes using Susanoo.

[Smiley]

Orochimaru is a different story. You assume he was weak compared to Itachi, but it was Itachi and Itachi alone who made him look like a joke. He was one of most powerful shinobi in the Naruto world. There wasn't anyone else who could've beaten Orochimaru like Itachi did. But Itachi can't do that to everyone. Especially people who have fought him before and won't look into his eyes.

Itachi will get crushed by the gates, Kakashi's mangekyo will suck up Amaterasu and Kakashi and Gai won't get caught by Susanoo they're both not slow enough to be caught by an exhausted mess of a person Itachi becomes using Susanoo.

Kakashi's mangekyo needs a sh*t of time to be charged.
Itachi just has to close and open his eyes.
And Kakashi's done with.

[rush rush]

Itachi can use Amaterasu on either Gai or Kakashi and once he defeated that person since Amaterasu does such a huge strain on the body that whoever is left will kill him and Itachi can't use sasunoo or bi bi Itachi and Gais gates would kill Itachi so of course Gai and Kakashi win!

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Yes but he does not open with Ameratsu, he'll use Tsukoymi on them, as shown in Kakashi vs. Itachi.

[Smiley]

Neither of them is going to look him in the eyes.
Kakashi has experienced it, Gai as well knows about it.
I'm pretty sure he can use two amaterasus, though.
He was able to use all three techniques in one fight.(And I bet Susano'o takes even more chakra than Amaterasu).

[rush rush]

But since it make him much weaker than either Gai or Kakashi could take him out!

[Muffin]

Kakashi's mangekyo needs a sh*t of time to be charged.
Itachi just has to close and open his eyes.
And Kakashi's done with.

Amaterasu takes a long time to charge aswell.
Kakashi shown that he won't get caught by Tsukiyomi again.

[rush rush]

Kakashi is not stupid he is definetly not going to get caught in Tsukiyomi and neither is gai since he is a sharingan expert!

[WhiteFang]

And in regards to your Kakashi's Mangekyo comment.
You're dead wrong.
Kakashi's Mangekyo is the strongest technique ever made.

:hug:

Orochimaru is a different story. You assume he was weak compared to Itachi, but it was Itachi and Itachi alone who made him look like a joke. He was one of most powerful shinobi in the Naruto world. There wasn't anyone else who could've beaten Orochimaru like Itachi did. But Itachi can't do that to everyone. Especially people who have fought him before and won't look into his eyes.

Itachi will get crushed by the gates, Kakashi's mangekyo will suck up Amaterasu and Kakashi and Gai won't get caught by Susanoo they're both not slow enough to be caught by an exhausted mess of a person Itachi becomes using Susanoo.

Yep. Completely agreed here, Muffin. :xd:

[9TailedBijuu]

I know it might not mean a lot but I wanted you guys to take one fact into consideration.

Itachi was dieing. He used some sort of medicine to increase his life span when he fough with Sasuke (atleast thats what Madara said) If thats true that means that Itachi might be able to use ametarasu and other techniques longer.

Kakashi's mangekyo will suck up Amaterasu
Kakashi has to "lock on the target" to be able to suck it into another dimension so it is almost impossible to to attack a moving target.
Ametarasu works by creating flames wherever the user looks with his mangekyou so it makes it impossible to avoid it. And because Ametarasu covers such a high area Kakashi wont be able to suck it in.

[Muffin]

He sucked up an explosion using the technique. Fire should really be no problem.

[Smiley]

Amaterasu takes a long time to charge aswell.
Kakashi shown that he won't get caught by Tsukiyomi again.

Not at all.
When he burned the frog stomach technique Jiraiya and Naruto ran after him and couldn't catch him, because both Kisame and Kakashi were out already.
It took Kakashi around 5 chapters to charge his mangekyou.

[Muffin]

Not at all.
When he burned the frog stomach technique Jiraiya and Naruto ran after him and couldn't catch him, because both Kisame and Kakashi were out already.
It took Kakashi around 5 chapters to charge his mangekyou.

He needed to perform a series of seals in order to perform it. Jiraiya and Naruto ran after they heard the crash of them breaking through the walls Jiraiya was too busy controlling the walls and Naruto was standing still so it's not like they were right behind them chasing.

[WhiteFang]

And.. time is something Kakashi does have at his disposal here. Gai can distract Itachi long enough with the gates open, so Kakashi can activate that black-hole. And its pretty much game-over when that comes into the picture.

[Smiley]

He needed to perform a series of seals in order to perform it. Jiraiya and Naruto ran after they heard the crash of them breaking through the walls Jiraiya was too busy controlling the walls and Naruto was standing still so it's not like they were right behind them chasing.

It was just a couple of seconds really.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/05/
Take a look there.
After they started running, moments later we see Jiraiya and Naruto chasing them and then noticing that Kisame and Itachi are gone.
While it took Kakashi around 4-5 chapters to charge his mangekyou.

[rush rush]

4-5 chapters to charge his mangekou!!!!!!!

[MinatoNamikaze]

Ok Itahci isint dumb. He wouldnt use Tsukiyomi because it wouldnt be activated, and if it was Kakshi or guy would be out of commision. Amaaterastsu would beat Kakshi becasue Kakashi's Mangekyou talkes forever to charge.

And to Majin, yes i am very biased towards Itahci becasue he is so strong. His Genjutsu works on one person but, he can still fight the other person at the same time, (watch Kakashi and Naruto, and Sakura vs Itachi for your "proof"

[rush rush]

Amaaterastsu would beat Kakshi becasue Kakashi's Mangekyou talkes forever to charge.
But since Amaaterastsu makes Itachi alot slower and weaker than Guy could kill Itachi with his gates!

[MinatoNamikaze]

But since Amaaterastsu makes Itachi alot slower and weaker than Guy could kill Itachi with his gates!

Amateratsu doesnt make him slower. Secondly, Itahci just needs to use Sasuno and hes protected from Gates. And dont think Sasuno kills him. Itachi was weakeded first by his mangekyou sharingan, and second by his disease, not to mention the fact that he already had tsukiyomi shoved back in his face, and ativated the biggest blast of amateratsu every seen before he activated it.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

And to Majin, yes i am very biased towards Itahci becasue he is so strong. His Genjutsu works on one person but, he can still fight the other person at the same time, (watch Kakashi and Naruto, and Sakura vs Itachi for your "proof"

He's not near as strong as you think.
Give me a link to that in the manga.

[MinatoNamikaze]

He's not near as strong as you think.
Give me a link to that in the manga.

I cant remember the chapter but it is when Itachi first comes back for sasuke in season one. Its around chapter 140 or so

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I cant remember the chapter but it is when Itachi first comes back for sasuke in season one. Its around chapter 140 or so

Chapter 147, the chapter you are referring to, he used Tsukoyomi on Sasuke for a short period of time, and then inserted something in his mind to replay the day of the Uchiha Massacre in 24 hours.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Chapter 147, the chapter you are referring to, he used Tsukoyomi on Sasuke for a short period of time, and then inserted something in his mind to replay the day of the Uchiha Massacre in 24 hours.

No it was before that when Itahci met Asuma

[Doctor Octogonapus]

You're referring to Chapter 141 where again, Itachi does not do what you say he does.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Oh wait Majin Im an idiot, I was refering to when Naruto and Kakshi were after Garaa (after he was abducted) when Itahci confronted them at 30% power. (I hope that happened in MAnga cause I started reading around chapter 300 [sorry if I screwed this up:D :D :D :D )

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Oh wait Majin Im an idiot, I was refering to when Naruto and Kakshi were after Garaa (after he was abducted) when Itahci confronted them at 30% power. (I hope that happened in MAnga cause I started reading around chapter 300 [sorry if I screwed this up:D :D :D :D )

Okay....I have no clue when this happened.
I watched the anime up until the end of the Gaara arc then switched to manga.
But I'll find it, hold on.
And I believe the part you're referring to is simple genjutsu, not Tsukoymi.

Edit: As I thought, he put a spell type Genjutsu on him. But either way, unless it's Tsukoyomi, it's easily overcome by those two.

[MinatoNamikaze]

True but Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu, why would it be any different than any other genjutsu.

[Smiley]

Because while for the victim of Tsukoyomi the illusion can last for hours, it's only a few seconds in normal world.
Therefore it cannot be dispelled by your comrade.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Because while for the victim of Tsukoyomi the illusion can last for hours, it's only a few seconds in normal world.
Therefore it cannot be dispelled by your comrade.

thats a very good point, I hadnt thought of that.:D

[Doctor Octogonapus]

True but Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu, why would it be any different than any other genjutsu.

Two paragraphs down you will find your answer.

Because while for the victim of Tsukoyomi the illusion can last for hours, it's only a few seconds in normal world.
Therefore it cannot be dispelled by your comrade.

No, this is why....

Tsukoyomi is cast from the Sharingan, and can't be used without the sharingan.
Every other form of genjutsu however, does not require the sharingan.
Just Tsukoyomi.

[Smiley]

Wow..
Well that is another 'why'.
Mine is correct too `-.-

[MinatoNamikaze]

Two paragraphs down you will find your answer.



No, this is why....

Tsukoyomi is cast from the Sharingan, and can't be used without the sharingan.
Every other form of genjutsu however, does not require the sharingan.
Just Tsukoyomi.

ok but why does that mean it hinders his ability to fight. It only last a second so nobody would have time to attack him. Secondly, the genjutsu is cast by the sharingan so theres proof against your theory.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

ok but why does that mean it hinders his ability to fight. It only last a second so nobody would have time to attack him. Secondly, the genjutsu is cast by the sharingan so theres proof against your theory.

Because he's using the sharingan.
How is that not clear.
If I put my hands over your eyes would you want proof that you can't see?
He's using the sharingan which is in his EYES.
Therefore he SEES the genjutsu as well.
So he couldn't possibly be in reality at that time.

Secondly, this debate is over.
Read the Sasuke vs. Itachi fight.
They both used Sharingan Genjutsu and BOTH were not moving in reality.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Because he's using the sharingan.
How is that not clear.
If I put my hands over your eyes would you want proof that you can't see?
He's using the sharingan which is in his EYES.
Therefore he SEES the genjutsu as well.
So he couldn't possibly be in reality at that time.

Secondly, this debate is over.
Read the Sasuke vs. Itachi fight.
They both used Sharingan Genjutsu and BOTH were not moving in reality.

They dont have to be. And regardlees of the fact It doesnt matter. Tsukiyomi only lsats a second so even if he is unable to move for a second, it measn nothing. He still takes out one of them and 1v1 Ithachi wins every time.

[hyuga_fan]

They dont have to be. And regardlees of the fact It doesnt matter. Tsukiyomi only lsats a second so even if he is unable to move for a second, it measn nothing. He still takes out one of them and 1v1 Ithachi wins every time.

I agree totally.

[rush rush]

Originally Posted by MinatoNamikaze
They dont have to be. And regardlees of the fact It doesnt matter. Tsukiyomi only lsats a second so even if he is unable to move for a second, it measn nothing. He still takes out one of them and 1v1 Ithachi wins every time.I agree

[WhiteFang]

They dont have to be. And regardlees of the fact It doesnt matter. Tsukiyomi only lsats a second so even if he is unable to move for a second, it measn nothing. He still takes out one of them and 1v1 Ithachi wins every time.

It does matter actually. I'll explain:

Both Kakashi and Gai know how to fight the sharingan.

Kakashi has been hit with a Tsukyomi head on once, he knows the intricacies of that technique. He ain't dumb. He's smart actually, and he is definitely not getting caught in it again. The only person who has repeatedly fallen for Itachi's genjutsu is Naruto. And as seen in the battle against 30% Itachi, Kakashi used a good strategy. His execution was fast enough that Itachi was even unable to notice with his sharingan. And as matter of fact, the ploy Kakashi used would have even worked had Itachi even been trying to use Tsukyomi. And anyways, Kakashi has really good battle brains, he won't get caught in Tsukyomi.
Second is Gai. He is a taijutsu expert. He knows how to battle the sharingan. He has beaten Kakashi. He also won't get caught in Tsukyomi.

So, Tsukyomi is out of the picture.

Now for regular genjutsu, that thing works in real-time. And Itachi is actually stationary while using it. If Itachi tries to pull that, it will be disaster for him. That's because,
1) He leaves a blind-spot which can be easily exploited by either Gai or Kakashi, depending on which one of them is caught in the genjutsu.
2) It can be cancelled by inserting chakra. Thereby rendering it useless.

As far as Amaterasu is concerned, Gai can handle that with the gates. He's insanely fast then. Sasuke was able to dodge Amaterasu for just a little while. But Gai can definitely dodge it longer, because he is easily much faster than Sasuke with the gates open. And, the Amaterasu fires wherever Itachi's vision focuses, Gai is hardly visible with open gate speed. And Kakashi won't be sitting around. He also has his dog summons. Itachi can't handle Kakashi and Gai and the dogs when he has only one eye from which he can fire Amaterasu. He can't focus on 3 entities at one instant of time. Especially if they attack from 3 different directions. 2 Amaterasu's wear out Itachi a LOT.

Itachi's other fire techs. won't help at all. Kakashi has strong Suiton and most of the fire techs. can be easily dodged too.

Now comes Susanoo. After Itachi uses that he dies. Or pretty much becomes useless. All Gai and Kakashi need to do is dodge for a little while. And I'd like to mention that Gai has plenty of stamina, he was not too weared out after using the 6 gates. And I don't think the reflecting shield can reflect back a black-hole. And Kakashi can use that. He used it fairly fast against Deidara when he zapped his blast to the next dimension. When that happened, Kakashi has already used the tech. twice and deactivated his MS back to its ground 3-tomoe state. Then he reactivated that and used it again on Deidara for the third time.

[rush rush]

It does matter actually. I'll explain:

Both Kakashi and Gai know how to fight the sharingan.

Kakashi has been hit with a Tsukyomi head on once, he knows the intricacies of that technique. He ain't dumb. He's smart actually, and he is definitely not getting caught in it again. The only person who has repeatedly fallen for Itachi's genjutsu is Naruto. And as seen in the battle against 30% Itachi, Kakashi used a good strategy. His execution was fast enough that Itachi was even unable to notice with his sharingan. And as matter of fact, the ploy Kakashi used would have even worked had Itachi even been trying to use Tsukyomi. And anyways, Kakashi has really good battle brains, he won't get caught in Tsukyomi.
Second is Gai. He is a taijutsu expert. He knows how to battle the sharingan. He has beaten Kakashi. He also won't get caught in Tsukyomi.

So, Tsukyomi is out of the picture.

Now for regular genjutsu, that thing works in real-time. And Itachi is actually stationary while using it. If Itachi tries to pull that, it will be disaster for him. That's because,
1) He leaves a blind-spot which can be easily exploited by either Gai or Kakashi, depending on which one of them is caught in the genjutsu.
2) It can be cancelled by inserting chakra. Thereby rendering it useless.

As far as Amaterasu is concerned, Gai can handle that with the gates. He's insanely fast then. Sasuke was able to dodge Amaterasu for just a little while. But Gai can definitely dodge it longer, because he is easily much faster than Sasuke with the gates open. And, the Amaterasu fires wherever Itachi's vision focuses, Gai is hardly visible with open gate speed. And Kakashi won't be sitting around. He also has his dog summons. Itachi can't handle Kakashi and Gai and the dogs when he has only one eye from which he can fire Amaterasu. He can't focus on 3 entities at one instant of time. Especially if they attack from 3 different directions. 2 Amaterasu's wear out Itachi a LOT.

Itachi's other fire techs. won't help at all. Kakashi has strong Suiton and most of the fire techs. can be easily dodged too.

Now comes Susanoo. After Itachi uses that he dies. Or pretty much becomes useless. All Gai and Kakashi need to do is dodge for a little while. And I'd like to mention that Gai has plenty of stamina, he was not too weared out after using the 6 gates. And I don't think the reflecting shield can reflect back a black-hole. And Kakashi can use that. He used it fairly fast against Deidara when he zapped his blast to the next dimension. When that happened, Kakashi has already used the tech. twice and deactivated his MS back to its ground 3-tomoe state. Then he reactivated that and used it again on Deidara for the third time.perfectly put Gai's intenence speed can dodge Amaterasu with or without the gates!And Itachi can only use Amaterasu 3 times at most that won't be to hard and While Itachi's trying to hit Gai with Amaterasu Kakashi can summon the ninja dogs to hold down Itachi down then they could just go up to him and cut his head off with a kunai knife!And if Itachi was trying to get Kakashi instead with Amaratsu then Gai can just go in to gate mode and then run up to Itachi with blinding speed and kill Itachi with Gais gates!

[9TailedBijuu]

Itachi isn't stupid and he wont use his attacks just for sake of seeing what happens. He knows his abilities better than anyone else and he knows his limits. He will surely try combinations of attacks to somehow distract either Gai or Kakashi and get them in his genjutsu or attack them with Amatarasu. He wouldn't start the battle by using amaterasu or some of his more powerfull attacks because it would be stupid.

Itachi also has more stamina than Kakashi because at the fight at the village he said that Kakashi lacks stamina of the Uchiha which means that Itachi might not be so hopeless at taijutsu as everyone thinks.

[Smiley]

It does matter actually. I'll explain:

Both Kakashi and Gai know how to fight the sharingan.

Kakashi has been hit with a Tsukyomi head on once, he knows the intricacies of that technique. He ain't dumb. He's smart actually, and he is definitely not getting caught in it again. The only person who has repeatedly fallen for Itachi's genjutsu is Naruto. And as seen in the battle against 30% Itachi, Kakashi used a good strategy. His execution was fast enough that Itachi was even unable to notice with his sharingan. And as matter of fact, the ploy Kakashi used would have even worked had Itachi even been trying to use Tsukyomi. And anyways, Kakashi has really good battle brains, he won't get caught in Tsukyomi.
Second is Gai. He is a taijutsu expert. He knows how to battle the sharingan. He has beaten Kakashi. He also won't get caught in Tsukyomi.

So, Tsukyomi is out of the picture.

Now for regular genjutsu, that thing works in real-time. And Itachi is actually stationary while using it. If Itachi tries to pull that, it will be disaster for him. That's because,
1) He leaves a blind-spot which can be easily exploited by either Gai or Kakashi, depending on which one of them is caught in the genjutsu.
2) It can be cancelled by inserting chakra. Thereby rendering it useless.

As far as Amaterasu is concerned, Gai can handle that with the gates. He's insanely fast then. Sasuke was able to dodge Amaterasu for just a little while. But Gai can definitely dodge it longer, because he is easily much faster than Sasuke with the gates open. And, the Amaterasu fires wherever Itachi's vision focuses, Gai is hardly visible with open gate speed. And Kakashi won't be sitting around. He also has his dog summons. Itachi can't handle Kakashi and Gai and the dogs when he has only one eye from which he can fire Amaterasu. He can't focus on 3 entities at one instant of time. Especially if they attack from 3 different directions. 2 Amaterasu's wear out Itachi a LOT.

Itachi's other fire techs. won't help at all. Kakashi has strong Suiton and most of the fire techs. can be easily dodged too.

Now comes Susanoo. After Itachi uses that he dies. Or pretty much becomes useless. All Gai and Kakashi need to do is dodge for a little while. And I'd like to mention that Gai has plenty of stamina, he was not too weared out after using the 6 gates. And I don't think the reflecting shield can reflect back a black-hole. And Kakashi can use that. He used it fairly fast against Deidara when he zapped his blast to the next dimension. When that happened, Kakashi has already used the tech. twice and deactivated his MS back to its ground 3-tomoe state. Then he reactivated that and used it again on Deidara for the third time.

Itachi's amaterasu charges a lot faster than Gai's gates.
While Gai's charging Itachi can just use amaterasu and Gai's out of the picture.
And afterwards he can easily beat Kakashi one on one.
Kakashi knows that he has to keep an eye on his legs if he doesn't wanna get caught in genjutsu.
In that case his sharingan is completely useless because he can't read or predict Itachi's hand-seals.
If he, however looks at his hands, there's a high possibility that he'll get caught in the finger or crow genjutsu which can't be dispelled unless you're with your comrades and since Gai's already been burnt, there's no one to dispell it.

[WhiteFang]

Itachi's amaterasu charges a lot faster than Gai's gates.
While Gai's charging Itachi can just use amaterasu and Gai's out of the picture.
And afterwards he can easily beat Kakashi one on one.
Kakashi knows that he has to keep an eye on his legs if he doesn't wanna get caught in genjutsu.
In that case his sharingan is completely useless because he can't read or predict Itachi's hand-seals.
If he, however looks at his hands, there's a high possibility that he'll get caught in the finger or crow genjutsu which can't be dispelled unless you're with your comrades and since Gai's already been burnt, there's no one to dispell it.

This is where you get the assumption wrong. Gai's gates are fast. And if you observed the Itachi Vs Sasuke fight. While Itachi is focusing his Amaterasu, he's a sitting duck. He can only focus his Amaterasu at one person at a time. While he's busy with Gai... Kakashi and his dogs can end his story. Amaterasu is essentially only useful in one on one combat. And.. Gai won't be out of the picture, he has his heal gate, even if Itachi somehow does manage to catch him before he opens the gates. And as I've said before, you have hardly justified any of the points.

[MinatoNamikaze]

First of all, Amateratsu takes almost no time to form. Look when Itahci and Kisame escaped from the toads stomach. He had less than 5 seconds to activate Mangekyou and then shoot off an Amateratsu. So he would catch one of the targets easily and then be right back into the battle. Also, just so you know, Kakshi got caught in Tsukiyomi 2 times. Once in the leaf village, and once in the Itahci vs naruto and kakshi in the Garra arc. So he might fall for it again becasue the second time Itahci forced him to look himin the eyes.

And finally, the thing I always find funny when people put Itachi against some one and they think itahci will loose, they completely underestimate Sasuno. They all say, well they just have to dodge it for a bit and then Itahci will be too weakened to fight. Have you seen sasunos sword. It is lighting fast and has no shape so it can bend and twist very fast. Just look at how fast he caught orochimaru with it.

BTW sasuno doesnt kill Itahci. Itachi died becasue 1) he used his Mangekyou too much which exerted to much energy/chakra 2) he had a deadly disease in him for a long time and took medicine to keep him alive 3) His mangekyou made him blind and weakened 4) HE WANTED TO DIE!! The fight was over becasue he destroyed Oro and released him from sasuke. He had to die then becasue he had to allow sasuke to activate his own MS.

Itachi > Kakshi and Gai

[WhiteFang]

First of all, Amateratsu takes almost no time to form. Look when Itahci and Kisame escaped from the toads stomach. He had less than 5 seconds to activate Mangekyou and then shoot off an Amateratsu. So he would catch one of the targets easily and then be right back into the battle. Also, just so you know, Kakshi got caught in Tsukiyomi 2 times. Once in the leaf village, and once in the Itahci vs naruto and kakshi in the Garra arc. So he might fall for it again becasue the second time Itahci forced him to look himin the eyes.

Incorrect. Kakashi has been caught in Tsukyomi just once. Recheck your facts. He did not get caught in it in the Gaara arc. I won't say anymore. The manga proves you wrong here.

And you still have not justified the point that Itachi's Amaterasu is only effective in a one on one situation because he can focus on only one person at a time, and he is a sitting duck while doing that. Here he is dealing with an insanely fast, gate enhanced Gai, Kakashi and the nin-dogs.

And finally, the thing I always find funny when people put Itachi against some one and they think itahci will loose, they completely underestimate Sasuno. They all say, well they just have to dodge it for a bit and then Itahci will be too weakened to fight. Have you seen sasunos sword. It is lighting fast and has no shape so it can bend and twist very fast. Just look at how fast he caught orochimaru with it.

Oro was foolish as usual. He rammed headfirst into that sword. Something which Kakashi and Gai won't do. Staying away from Susanoo is quite easy, Itachi's movements are very restricted and he gets extremely drained of chakra.

BTW sasuno doesnt kill Itahci. Itachi died becasue 1) he used his Mangekyou too much which exerted to much energy/chakra 2) he had a deadly disease in him for a long time and took medicine to keep him alive 3) His mangekyou made him blind and weakened 4) HE WANTED TO DIE!! The fight was over becasue he destroyed Oro and released him from sasuke. He had to die then becasue he had to allow sasuke to activate his own MS.

Susanoo weakens him a hell lot. There is no doubt about it. Disease or no. I'm not saying that he'll necessarily die after using it, but he becomes useless.

Itachi > Kakshi and Gai
No. Gai and Kakashi > Itachi.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Incorrect. Kakashi has been caught in Tsukyomi just once. Recheck your facts. He did not get caught in it in the Gaara arc. I won't say anymore. The manga proves you wrong here.

Show me where Manga proves me wrong becasue I only started reading Manga at chapter 300 so maybe I missed it becasue in anime he did. Sorry if that only happened in Anime :D

And you still have not justified the point that Itachi's Amaterasu is only effective in a one on one situation because he can focus on only one person at a time, and he is a sitting duck while doing that. Here he is dealing with an insanely fast, gate enhanced Gai, Kakashi and the nin-dogs.

Ya I did. Amateratsu is very fast aswell. once it attcks an opponent, it burns by itself. So he only has to look at them for a second and they are covered in Amateratsu adn out of the fight. He is a sitting duck for less then a second.

Oro was foolish as usual. He rammed headfirst into that sword. Something which Kakashi and Gai won't do. Staying away from Susanoo is quite easy, Itachi's movements are very restricted and he gets extremely drained of chakra.

Oro didnt move into it. The sword stabbed him before he had a chance to make a move.

Susanoo weakens him a hell lot. There is no doubt about it. Disease or no. I'm not saying that he'll necessarily die after using it, but he becomes useless.

No it doesnt. It weakens him a little more than the other techiniques because it uses both eyes but it doesnt put him anywhere near being out of the fight.

No. Gai and Kakashi > Itachi.


Itahci > kakashi and Gai lol :D

[9TailedBijuu]

And finally, the thing I always find funny when people put Itachi against some one and they think itahci will loose, they completely underestimate Sasuno. They all say, well they just have to dodge it for a bit and then Itahci will be too weakened to fight. Have you seen sasunos sword. It is lighting fast and has no shape so it can bend and twist very fast. Just look at how fast he caught orochimaru with it.

I agree with that.
Orochimaru was killed in an instant before he could even make a move.

By the way you should remember that Orochimaru is one fo the legendary sannin and Kakashi almost peed his pants when he saw him comming his way and after that talked of how stupid he was to try and attack Oro.
The 3rd hokage said that Orochimaru alone could have probably taken out the village (Gai and Kakashi included).

And after all that talk of how powerfull Orochimaru is he was no match for Itachi.
So peopel who say that Kakashi and Gai could take Itachi out think again.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I agree with that.
Orochimaru was killed in an instant before he could even make a move.

By the way you should remember that Orochimaru is one fo the legendary sannin and Kakashi almost peed his pants when he saw him comming his way and after that talked of how stupid he was to try and attack Oro.
The 3rd hokage said that Orochimaru alone could have probably taken out the village (Gai and Kakashi included).

And after all that talk of how powerfull Orochimaru is he was no match for Itachi.
So peopel who say that Kakashi and Gai could take Itachi out think again.

THANK YOU finally someone sees the power of sasuno and Itahci

[rush rush]

THANK YOU finally someone sees the power of sasuno and Itahciif Itachi uses sasoono he dies!

[MinatoNamikaze]

if Itachi uses sasoono he dies!

No he doesnt. I already listed why he doesnt a couple posts ago. :D

[rush rush]

Oh i'll read it then No it doesnt. It weakens him a little more than the other techiniques because it uses both eyes but it doesnt put him anywhere near being out of the fight.Do you have any proof of this or are just saying this because Itachi's your favorite character

[9TailedBijuu]

(Isn't the reason why Itachi died was the disease that he had and not Susano. I mean he was coughing an all. It wasn't because of over exhaustion)

Even if disease didn't killed him he would have died in a day or two which means that he already was extremely weak and because he already used ametarasu couple of times he was weakened further more and right after that he used Susano. So maybe thats the reason why he died.

[rush rush]

(Isn't the reason why Itachi died was the disease that he had and not Susano. I mean he was coughing an all. It wasn't because of over exhaustion)

Even if disease didn't killed him he would have died in a day or two which means that he already was extremely weak and because he already used ametarasu couple of times he was weakened further more and right after that he used Susano. So maybe thats the reason why he died.
agreed

[Smiley]

In find Gaara arc, Kakashi's clone was caught in Tsukoyomi if I remember well.
But that doesn't count ^^

I'm still pretty sure Itachi can take this.
In Itachi vs. Sasuke fight we saw him throwing shurikens, defending Sasuke's attacks AND forming seals all at the same time.
Beating up the dogs and dealing with Gai at the same time isn't much of a problem.
Gai doesn't know about either finger or crow genjutsu and watching his hands is necessary to be ready for the upcoming jutsus or in hand-to-hand combat.
As soon as Gai is caught in genjutsu Itachi can use fireball jutsu or throw shurikens at the dogs(or maybe even at the same time; one hand for each of his opponents)
If necessary to deal with multiple opponents he can create a shadow clone, like in Sasuke/Itachi fight where we saw his amazing ability to form seals while fighting.
And for the finale he uses amaterasu on Kakashi.

[rush rush]

In find Gaara arc, Kakashi's clone was caught in Tsukoyomi if I remember well.
But that doesn't count ^^

I'm still pretty sure Itachi can take this.
In Itachi vs. Sasuke fight we saw him throwing shurikens, defending Sasuke's attacks AND forming seals all at the same time.
Beating up the dogs and dealing with Gai at the same time isn't much of a problem.
Gai doesn't know about either finger or crow genjutsu and watching his hands is necessary to be ready for the upcoming jutsus or in hand-to-hand combat.
As soon as Gai is caught in genjutsu Itachi can use fireball jutsu or throw shurikens at the dogs(or maybe even at the same time; one hand for each of his opponents)
If necessary to deal with multiple opponents he can create a shadow clone, like in Sasuke/Itachi fight where we saw his amazing ability to form seals while fighting.
And for the finale he uses amaterasu on Kakashi.But while Itachi is taking care of Gai and the ninja dogs Kakashi can charge his mangekou sharingan and soon use it on Itachi

[Smiley]

No..
It's actually just a couple of seconds.
One great fireball technique can kill the dogs, and genjutsu reality is happening outside the normal world, so no.
In the worst possible scenario for Itachi this fight would and as a tie if he's at the end forced to use Susano'o.

[rush rush]

No..
It's actually just a couple of seconds.
One great fireball technique can kill the dogs, and genjutsu reality is happening outside the normal world, so no.
In the worst possible scenario for Itachi this fight would and as a tie if he's at the end forced to use Susano'o.That might happen but if Gai can get close to Itachi Gai could use his tajutsu really injur Itachi!

[WhiteFang]

In find Gaara arc, Kakashi's clone was caught in Tsukoyomi if I remember well.
But that doesn't count ^^
Just to correct you. It was not Tsukyomi. And it was deliberate on Kakashi's part. The execution of his tech. was so fast that Itachi failed to notice even with his sharingan.

In Itachi vs. Sasuke fight we saw him throwing shurikens, defending Sasuke's attacks AND forming seals all at the same time.
Not a problem, Kakashi is almost as good at the multi-tasking. You don't even come to know when he uses a Bunshin or Kawarimi.
Beating up the dogs and dealing with Gai at the same time isn't much of a problem.
It is actually. I'm amazed at how people constantly underestimate Gai, who infact is one of the strongest guys out there.
Gai doesn't know about either finger or crow genjutsu and watching his hands is necessary to be ready for the upcoming jutsus or in hand-to-hand combat.
As soon as Gai is caught in genjutsu Itachi can use fireball jutsu or throw shurikens at the dogs(or maybe even at the same time; one hand for each of his opponents)
This battle is not linear. Its not like Itachi takes care of one guy first, then another. That won't happen. The teamwork factor. And Kakashi and Gai are one hell of a team. Its the guy with the most extensive ninjutsu paired with at least in my opinion the best taijutsu user.
And the one hand thing... trust me.. even with both his hands Itachi would have trouble with Gai. Gai has a hell lot of stamina.
Now, for the crow/finger genjutsu part. That is a regular real-time genjutsu. Means Itachi is completely still while casting that, in actual time. In other words, if Itachi does such a stupidity, Kakashi will kill him due to the fact that Itachi will be just standing there. Check out the Itachi-Sasuke fight, they were both completely still.
Fire techs. are fairly easy to dodge and Kakashi can use water and earth.
If necessary to deal with multiple opponents he can create a shadow clone, like in Sasuke/Itachi fight where we saw his amazing ability to form seals while fighting.
Kakashi is just as good at the Bunshin stuff. But anyways, a bunshin would just waste chakra, seeing that each of Itachi's MS techs. are already so heavy costing.

And for the finale he uses amaterasu on Kakashi.
He does not. More like Kakashi zaps him to the next dimension.

[rush rush]

Agreed with everything you said whitefang and if the ninja dogs are holding down Itachi then how could he use his fireball jutsu on them?And if there holding Itachi down then Kakashi can just use his chidori on Itachi and hes dead!

[Doctor Octogonapus]

They dont have to be. And regardlees of the fact It doesnt matter. Tsukiyomi only lsats a second so even if he is unable to move for a second, it measn nothing. He still takes out one of them and 1v1 Ithachi wins every time.

He wasn't using Tsukoymi, he was using regular genjutsu.
Itachi does not win, I'm sorry he just doesn't.
You want proof in the manga?
It's called Chapter 1 through 409.
And Tsukoymi lasted about 7 seconds for Sasuke, 7 seconds is about .5 too long to be standing still when fighting Gai.
Not only that it's enough time to charge the Mangekyo, and once Kakashi has that charged, Itachi is dead.
So simply put, if he uses genjutsu of any kind, he will lose.
End of story.

Itachi isn't stupid and he wont use his attacks just for sake of seeing what happens.


JUSTTOSEEWHATHAPPINS!

(Dane Cook)

He knows his abilities better than anyone else and he knows his limits.

That would be more believable hadn't he just killed himself.

He will surely try combinations of attacks to somehow distract either Gai or Kakashi and get them in his genjutsu or attack them with Amatarasu.

Genjutsu - Loses the fight for him.
Ameratsu - Blinds him
Susano - Kills Him

Itachi also has more stamina than Kakashi because at the fight at the village he said that Kakashi lacks stamina of the Uchiha which means that Itachi might not be so hopeless at taijutsu as everyone thinks.

He may have more stamina than Kakashi, but he sure as hell doesn't have more than Gai.

First of all, Amateratsu takes almost no time to form. Look when Itahci and Kisame escaped from the toads stomach.

Yet he was wasted afterwards.

So he would catch one of the targets easily and then be right back into the battle.

Unless one of these people can move faster than it.
Which of course they can.

Also, just so you know, Kakshi got caught in Tsukiyomi 2 times. Once in the leaf village, and once in the Itahci vs naruto and kakshi in the Garra arc. So he might fall for it again becasue the second time Itahci forced him to look himin the eyes.

Once.
Not twice.

And finally, the thing I always find funny when people put Itachi against some one and they think itahci will loose, they completely underestimate Sasuno.

A technique that kills you and is extremely hard to use and will damn near blind you.
You're overestimating it.
We're not underestimating anything.


They all say, well they just have to dodge it for a bit and then Itahci will be too weakened to fight. Have you seen sasunos sword. It is lighting fast and has no shape so it can bend and twist very fast. Just look at how fast he caught orochimaru with it.

It wasn't that fast. And Gai is faster.

BTW sasuno doesnt kill Itahci. Itachi died becasue 1) he used his Mangekyou too much which exerted to much energy/chakra 2) he had a deadly disease in him for a long time and took medicine to keep him alive 3) His mangekyou made him blind and weakened 4) HE WANTED TO DIE!!

Yet what was it that killed him now?
He used his Mangekyo too much....he used too much chakra...and he wanted to die....this isn't looking good for you since the Susano was the cause of 3 of your 4 reasons he died.

Itachi > Kakshi and Gai

No, he's not.
He's really not.
Itachi is nowhere near as strong as you think he is.
Not even close.

Show me where Manga proves me wrong becasue I only started reading Manga at chapter 300 so maybe I missed it becasue in anime he did. Sorry if that only happened in Anime :D

Chapters 1 through 409.



Amateratsu is very fast aswell

Wasn't very fast at all.

once it attcks an opponent, it burns by itself. So he only has to look at them for a second and they are covered in Amateratsu adn out of the fight. He is a sitting duck for less then a second.

No, actually he doesn't just have to look at them, the flames have to go towards them, and the flames aren't that fast.


No it doesnt. It weakens him a little more than the other techiniques because it uses both eyes but it doesnt put him anywhere near being out of the fight.


It does not weaken him a LITTLE.



THANK YOU finally someone sees the power of sasuno and Itahci

You see Itachi's power in stereo.
He's about 1/4 as strong as you think he is.


if Itachi uses sasoono he dies!

THANK YOU! finally someone sees the ACTUAL power of Susano and Itachi.

Oh i'll read it then Do you have any proof of this or are just saying this because Itachi's your favorite character

The Favorite character thing of course.

[rush rush]

Originally Posted by MinatoNamikaze
They dont have to be. And regardlees of the fact It doesnt matter. Tsukiyomi only lsats a second so even if he is unable to move for a second, it measn nothing. He still takes out one of them and 1v1 Ithachi wins every time.

He wasn't using Tsukoymi, he was using regular genjutsu.
Itachi does not win, I'm sorry he just doesn't.
You want proof in the manga?
It's called Chapter 1 through 409.
And Tsukoymi lasted about 7 seconds for Sasuke, 7 seconds is about .5 too long to be standing still when fighting Gai.
Not only that it's enough time to charge the Mangekyo, and once Kakashi has that charged, Itachi is dead.
So simply put, if he uses genjutsu of any kind, he will lose.
End of story.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 9TailedBijuu
Itachi isn't stupid and he wont use his attacks just for sake of seeing what happens.


JUSTTOSEEWHATHAPPINS!

(Dane Cook)


Quote:
He knows his abilities better than anyone else and he knows his limits.

That would be more believable hadn't he just killed himself.


Quote:
He will surely try combinations of attacks to somehow distract either Gai or Kakashi and get them in his genjutsu or attack them with Amatarasu.

Genjutsu - Loses the fight for him.
Ameratsu - Blinds him
Susano - Kills Him


Quote:
Itachi also has more stamina than Kakashi because at the fight at the village he said that Kakashi lacks stamina of the Uchiha which means that Itachi might not be so hopeless at taijutsu as everyone thinks.

He may have more stamina than Kakashi, but he sure as hell doesn't have more than Gai.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MinatoNamikaze
First of all, Amateratsu takes almost no time to form. Look when Itahci and Kisame escaped from the toads stomach.

Yet he was wasted afterwards.


Quote:
So he would catch one of the targets easily and then be right back into the battle.

Unless one of these people can move faster than it.
Which of course they can.


Quote:
Also, just so you know, Kakshi got caught in Tsukiyomi 2 times. Once in the leaf village, and once in the Itahci vs naruto and kakshi in the Garra arc. So he might fall for it again becasue the second time Itahci forced him to look himin the eyes.

Once.
Not twice.


Quote:
And finally, the thing I always find funny when people put Itachi against some one and they think itahci will loose, they completely underestimate Sasuno.

A technique that kills you and is extremely hard to use and will damn near blind you.
You're overestimating it.
We're not underestimating anything.



Quote:
They all say, well they just have to dodge it for a bit and then Itahci will be too weakened to fight. Have you seen sasunos sword. It is lighting fast and has no shape so it can bend and twist very fast. Just look at how fast he caught orochimaru with it.

It wasn't that fast. And Gai is faster.


Quote:
BTW sasuno doesnt kill Itahci. Itachi died becasue 1) he used his Mangekyou too much which exerted to much energy/chakra 2) he had a deadly disease in him for a long time and took medicine to keep him alive 3) His mangekyou made him blind and weakened 4) HE WANTED TO DIE!!

Yet what was it that killed him now?
He used his Mangekyo too much....he used too much chakra...and he wanted to die....this isn't looking good for you since the Susano was the cause of 3 of your 4 reasons he died.


Quote:
Itachi > Kakshi and Gai

No, he's not.
He's really not.
Itachi is nowhere near as strong as you think he is.
Not even close.


Quote:
Show me where Manga proves me wrong becasue I only started reading Manga at chapter 300 so maybe I missed it becasue in anime he did. Sorry if that only happened in Anime

Chapters 1 through 409.



Quote:
Amateratsu is very fast aswell

Wasn't very fast at all.


Quote:
once it attcks an opponent, it burns by itself. So he only has to look at them for a second and they are covered in Amateratsu adn out of the fight. He is a sitting duck for less then a second.

No, actually he doesn't just have to look at them, the flames have to go towards them, and the flames aren't that fast.



Quote:
No it doesnt. It weakens him a little more than the other techiniques because it uses both eyes but it doesnt put him anywhere near being out of the fight.

It does not weaken him a LITTLE.




Quote:
Originally Posted by MinatoNamikaze
THANK YOU finally someone sees the power of sasuno and Itahci

You see Itachi's power in stereo.
He's about 1/4 as strong as you think he is.



Quote:
Originally Posted by rush rush
if Itachi uses sasoono he dies!

THANK YOU! finally someone sees the ACTUAL power of Susano and Itachi.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rush rush
Oh i'll read it then Do you have any proof of this or are just saying this because Itachi's your favorite character

The Favorite character thing of course.Thank you for realizing all those points!im series

[9TailedBijuu]

He knows his abilities better than anyone else and he knows his limits.
That would be more believable hadn't he just killed himself.

He will surely try combinations of attacks to somehow distract either Gai or Kakashi and get them in his genjutsu or attack them with Amatarasu.
Genjutsu - Loses the fight for him.
Ameratsu - Blinds him
Susano - Kills Him

He had a good reason to kill himself..

Genjutsu - Yeah I agree it really wouldn't work.

Amatarasu - He would only use it if he would now that it will actualy kill either Gai or Kakashi

Susano - It doesn't kill him. I already told the real reasons why he died. He had a disease and he was already over exhausted from using other techs. It will be enough to use Susano once and finish of both Kakashi and Gai. And susano really is fast. Itachi killed all of the snakes that Oro sent at him fairly quickly. (Itachi was almost blind to begin with.. afcourse after using Tsukano he was left with almost no vision.)

Also by saying combinations of attacks I meant general ninja techniques like replacement and clones for distractions and after that some more powerfull attacks like amaterasu.


No, actually he doesn't just have to look at them, the flames have to go towards them, and the flames aren't that fast.
Flames are pretty fast. Atleast fast enough to catch Sasuke.

I still think that Susano will easily crush both Kakashi and Gai. I actualy think that it is overpowered and if Itachi was healthy by which I mean without disease he would have been able to operate Susano longer and more easily.

[Smiley]

]Just to correct you. It was not Tsukyomi. And it was deliberate on Kakashi's part. The execution of his tech. was so fast that Itachi failed to notice even with his sharingan.

That was only 30% Itachi.


Not a problem, Kakashi is almost as good at the multi-tasking. You don't even come to know when he uses a Bunshin or Kawarimi.

Not against sharingan user.

It is actually. I'm amazed at how people constantly underestimate Gai, who infact is one of the strongest guys out there.

I am not underestimating him. He's simply weak against mangekyou.


This battle is not linear. Its not like Itachi takes care of one guy first, then another. That won't happen. The teamwork factor. And Kakashi and Gai are one hell of a team. Its the guy with the most extensive ninjutsu paired with at least in my opinion the best taijutsu user.

Yes, they're working together.
But KAkashi has just now summoned the dogs.
And is charging his MS.
Can he fight Itachi at the same time?

Now, for the crow/finger genjutsu part. That is a regular real-time genjutsu. Means Itachi is completely still while casting that, in actual time. In other words, if Itachi does such a stupidity, Kakashi will kill him due to the fact that Itachi will be just standing there. Check out the Itachi-Sasuke fight, they were both completely still.

Actually I think that Itachi can fight in normal world while at the same time having someone trapped in genjutsu.
And it's not just an assumption.
See, in 30% Itachi vs. Team Kakashi, Naruto was in the genjutsu for quite a time.
And Sakura and Chiyo were the ones that dispelled it.
I doubt Kakashi was just standing still all that time.
He would have attacked Itachi if he knew that he can't defend himself while having someone captured in genjutsu.
Not only attacked.. He would have killed him. One direct chidori is enough to finish him off.

Fire techs. are fairly easy to dodge and Kakashi can use water and earth.

Not by dogs.
And Kakashi is charging his MS now.
He's pretty low on chakra anyways I wonder if he would be able to use all those stuff and still be able to fight.

Kakashi is just as good at the Bunshin stuff. But anyways, a bunshin would just waste chakra, seeing that each of Itachi's MS techs. are already so heavy costing.


Yes.. I agree. One bunshin however won't cost much.
If I'm not wrong before Sasuke/Itachi fight ITachi created two shadow clones one to search for Sasuke and one for Naruto.
And afterwards he still created one clone in the fight AND used all three of his techniques(although the last one killed him).
Itachi clearly has much more chakra than Kakashi.


Agreed with everything you said whitefang and if the ninja dogs are holding down Itachi then how could he use his fireball jutsu on them?And if there holding Itachi down then Kakashi can just use his chidori on Itachi and hes dead!

He burns them or kills them with shuriken before they get to him.

[rush rush]

Susano - It doesn't kill him. I already told the real reasons why he died. He had a disease and he was already over exhausted from using other techs. It will be enough to use Susano once and finish of both Kakashi and Gai. And susano really is fast. Itachi killed all of the snakes that Oro sent at him fairly quickly. (Itachi was almost blind to begin with.. afcourse after using Tsukano he was left with almost no vision.)

just because you think thats what killed him does not mean your correct.And everybody knows if Itachi uses sasunoo it either kills you or makes you useless in battle and if itachi uses Amatarasu he could not get Gai for sure for sure cause hes too fast and even if he got lucky and got Kakashi then Itachi would be blind and that would make it easier for Gai to use his gates on Itachi!I am not underestimating him. He's simply weak against mangekyou.while Itachi is fighting Gai the ninja dogs can hold Itachi down like in the battle in team 7 vs. Haku and ZabuzaI am not underestimating him. He's simply weak against mangekyouGai is a sharingan expert he can fight the mangekou!!!

[Smiley]

Itachi is not Zabuza.
ITachi has the sharingan.
And about Gai stuff.. I'm not gonna explain it all over again.
Read my last posts.

[_Zetsu_]

i guess i pick Itachi

[9TailedBijuu]

just because you think thats what killed him does not mean your correct.And everybody knows if Itachi uses sasunoo it either kills you or makes you useless in battle and if itachi uses Amatarasu he could not get Gai for sure for sure cause hes too fast and even if he got lucky and got Kakashi then Itachi would be blind and that would make it easier for Gai to use his gates on Itachi!

Well yes my guess is a speculation but so is yours. Were is your proof that the user dies or becomes useless after using Susano?
Wasn't Itachi hit by Sasuke's new jutsu? And wasnt that the reason why he got so badly injured?

I think I gave some valid proof on saying that he was weak from disease and previously used techniques.

[rush rush]

Okay maybe the user does not die but he still becomes alot weaker!Itachi is not Zabuza.
ITachi has the sharingan.
And about Gai stuff.. I'm not gonna explain it all over again.
Read my last posts.Im just saying that Gai since he did so much research on the sharingan he knows what to do in a battle with an oppenent that has the sharingan!

[MinatoNamikaze]

I still go with Itahcis AMateratsu, and sasuno, not to mention is superior intelligence, and other non sharingan techs. I didnt see Gai as an Anbu captain when he was 13. Sasuno could take out all 3 groups with sasuno alone. Gai speed is unimportant in this case. Even a simple amateratsu could defeat all of them.

Think about this. Naruto is better than Kakashi, and sasuke is better than naruto (for now), and Itahci could have kicked sasukes ass if he had wanted to. So that means Itahci is ALOT stronger than Kakashi.

Again, i dont know why people cant get their head around this, but SASUNO DOESNT KILL THE USER

[9TailedBijuu]

Again, i dont know why people cant get their head around this, but SASUNO DOESNT KILL THE USER

I don't really know where they got this idea from lol.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I don't really know where they got this idea from lol.

lol its just becasue Itahci died after he used sasuno. Of course he also used Amateratsu 2 or three times, had tsukiyomi shived back in his face, had a deadly disease, and wanted to die FOR HEAVEN SAKES. Oh well at least you see it :D :D

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I still go with Itahcis AMateratsu, and sasuno

And I go with the overwhelming evidence against Itachi.
Ameratsu is slow.
Gai can easily avoid it.
Susano will kill Itachi because it's his LAST RESORT.

not to mention is superior intelligence

Lol.
Wow.
Just wow.
He's not smarter than Kakashi.
Show me proof that he's smarter than Kakashi, or Gai for that matter.

and other non sharingan techs.

None of which we have seen.
So that's irrelevant.

I didnt see Gai as an Anbu captain when he was 13.

So?
I don't see Itachi having a technique that makes him physically invincible and allows him to move faster than the speed of sound.
Who cares if he was Anbu captain at 13?
The answer is you and only you.
That doesn't mean he's special.
That doesn't mean he's God which according to you he's damn close to.
And also, I don't see Itachi having the strongest jutsu in the world.

Sasuno could take out all 3 groups with sasuno alone.

I wanna point out the irony in your being completely biased about Itachi yet not knowing how to spell Itachi, Susano, Ameratsu, and Tsukoymi.

Gai speed is unimportant in this case.

Just because you say so doesn't make it true.
Gai's speed is a big factor in this.

Even a simple amateratsu could defeat all of them.

If they stand still which they won't.

Naruto is better than Kakashi

I thought you said Think about it.
Naruto is not better than Kakashi.

and sasuke is better than naruto (for now),

They're about even depending on what Itachi gave Naruto.

and Itahci could have kicked sasukes ass if he had wanted to. So that means Itahci is ALOT stronger than Kakashi.

Your logic is seriously flawed.
Like not even kidding, it's not valid in anyway.

Here's an example proving why you can't use that chain.

Orochimaru is stronger than Jiriaya.
Jiriaya is stronger than Itachi.
Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru.

Orochimaru>Jiriaya
Jiriaya>Itachi
Itachi>Orochimaru

So with your logic Itachi>Jiriaya, but that's obviously not true.


Again, i dont know why people cant get their head around this, but SASUNO DOESNT KILL THE USER[/QUOTE]

You shouldn't be saying we can't get our heads around something, seriously hypocritical.
And Susano is a last resort, it will kill him if he uses the sharingan too much, which seeing as that's all we know he can do, he will.

I don't really know where they got this idea from lol.

Gee, I don't know, care to show me what happened after he used Susano?

lol its just becasue Itahci died after he used sasuno. Of course he also used Amateratsu 2 or three times, had tsukiyomi shived back in his face, had a deadly disease, and wanted to die FOR HEAVEN SAKES. Oh well at least you see it :D :D

He used Ameratsu once, and Tsukoymi once.
The disease played no part in this, as he killed himself, he did not die from the disease.
And thirdly, I don't care if he wanted to die.
That doesn't mean Susano didn't kill him!

[9TailedBijuu]

He used Ameratsu once, and Tsukoymi once.
The disease played no part in this, as he killed himself, he did not die from the disease.
And thirdly, I don't care if he wanted to die.
That doesn't mean Susano didn't kill him!

Well when you put it this way the disease really didn't had to do anything with his death but still.. It tells us that Itachi wasn't at his 100%.

Susano did kill him but you should look at what was going before that. As I said Itachi was weakened from disease and his vision was failing. He just used Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi and than he was hit by Sasuke's new jutsu. All of these things happened before the use of Susano. Susano was the thing that finished him off.

[MinatoNamikaze]

And I go with the overwhelming evidence against Itachi.
Ameratsu is slow.
Gai can easily avoid it.
Susano will kill Itachi because it's his LAST RESORT.

Amateratsu is not slow. Remeber how fast he had to use it to escape the toads stomach. Ya its not slow.

Lol.
Wow.
Just wow.
He's not smarter than Kakashi.
Show me proof that he's smarter than Kakashi, or Gai for that matter.

Hes alot smarter. I dont see Kakashi figuring out Madara is alive, knowing about Akatsuki, almost killing Madara with a sneek attck, and predicting sasuke would attack Konoha.

None of which we have seen.
So that's irrelevant.

WHat are you talking about. What about his Katon Jutsus. Note he didnt even have Mangekyou when he entered ANBU so he was incredibly strong without his Mangekyou.

So?
I don't see Itachi having a technique that makes him physically invincible

Did you miss sasuno, he cant die while it is activated.

and allows him to move faster than the speed of sound.

Thats not his forte. Kakshi doesnt have one. There are only three people with incredible speed, Gai, 4th, Madara.

Who cares if he was Anbu captain at 13?
The answer is you and only you.
That doesn't mean he's special.
That doesn't mean he's God which according to you he's damn close to.

wow calm down. It means alot. Noone else was in ANBU at 13. I dont think Gai has ever mbeen in anbu has.

And also, I don't see Itachi having the strongest jutsu in the world.

I guess you missed sasuno then. Unless you think theres a stronger Jutsu? Perfect defence, and an incredible offence, like sasuno has.

I wanna point out the irony in your being completely biased about Itachi yet not knowing how to spell Itachi, Susano, Ameratsu, and Tsukoymi.


Who cares. It doesnt make a defference. Im typing fast and not editing. Its completely irrelevent.

Just because you say so doesn't make it true.
Gai's speed is a big factor in this.

Its a minor factor. Sasuno and Amateratsu would still catch him.

If they stand still which they won't.

Itahci can still catch them. He has a good sharingan.

I thought you said Think about it.
Naruto is not better than Kakashi.

Yes he is. After his Rasenshuriken training, kakshi admitted Naruto was better.

They're about even depending on what Itachi gave Naruto.

Its irrelevent becasue I am measring Itahci level before he died. We still dont even know what power he gave him so it holds no bearing on his skill level.

Your logic is seriously flawed.
Like not even kidding, it's not valid in anyway.

Well mines just as flawed as your.

Here's an example proving why you can't use that chain.

Orochimaru is stronger than Jiriaya.
Jiriaya is stronger than Itachi.
Itachi is stronger than Orochimaru.

Orochimaru>Jiriaya
Jiriaya>Itachi
Itachi>Orochimaru

So with your logic Itachi>Jiriaya, but that's obviously not true.

From what ive discussed else where Oro < Jiriya so theres your chain out the window:D

You shouldn't be saying we can't get our heads around something, seriously hypocritical.
And Susano is a last resort, it will kill him if he uses the sharingan too much, which seeing as that's all we know he can do, he will.

Exactly my point. His Mangekyou is just one area of his Jutsus. He got into ANBU without it thank you :D


Gee, I don't know, care to show me what happened after he used Susano?

Gee, care to think about the other things that lead him to his death

He used Ameratsu once, and Tsukoymi once.
The disease played no part in this, as he killed himself, he did not die from the disease.
And thirdly, I don't care if he wanted to die.
That doesn't mean Susano didn't kill him!

OMG see you still havent gotten your head around it. Madar even said the disease killed him PLus he used amateratsu 2 times. the second time was a humungus one also.

Ill counter what ever you say when I get back from soccer between 8:30 and 9:00

[Smiley]

"Chains" can't be used to prove that someone is stronger or weaker than someone.I'll quote @Xinobi:

Also here is another thing. Ninja A can beat Ninja B, Ninja B can beat Ninja C. By a twist of fate and abilities, Ninja C may be able to beat Ninja A. Maybe the Sannin didnt have the abilities to beat that ninja that Pein beat. But that doesn't make him unbeatable.

That's very true actually.
And Itachi most likely can't get Gai with Amaterasu if he can't catch him in his sight.
Although, I still would give this to Itachi.
In one of my last posts I explained the reasons.

[rush rush]

I still belive that Gai and Kakashi would win or this may result in a tie but thats what I think the battle would result in to!

[MinatoNamikaze]

I still belive that Gai and Kakashi would win or this may result in a tie but thats what I think the battle would result in to!

Ok fair enough. Theres nothing that can prove which way the battle would go. Maybe Itahci gets something in his eye and Gai catches him while hes trying to get it out, or Gai slips and falls and cracks his head open. Anything can happen so theres no set answer one way or the other. I believe Itahci would win, but who knows maybe he has a bad day.:D So i guess we can say the debate is over?

[rush rush]

Yea i guess im sorry we both could not agrre this time oh well we're all still friends here i respect all of your opinions!!!

[Muffin]

Amateratsu is not slow. Remeber how fast he had to use it to escape the toads stomach. Ya its not slow.

That wasn't fast. The only 2 times we've seen him use it was when he was running away from Jiraiya and Naruto all the way down the hall, whom were not chasing him. And the 2nd time he needed to prepare a series of seals and keep his eyes closed for a while to use it which Sasuke almost prevented.


Hes alot smarter. I dont see Kakashi figuring out Madara is alive, knowing about Akatsuki, almost killing Madara with a sneek attck, and predicting sasuke would attack Konoha.

Itachi is not a genius. Kakashi is around Shikamaru's intelligence. Itachi is not, thats not opinion it's fact. He was tricked by Kakashi who is much smarter than Itachi. Gai has shown he is dam smart when he's not busy being a nutcase. As for the things you pointed out i guess by all those intances he's smarter than Shikaku and Shikamaru too then huh?


WHat are you talking about. What about his Katon Jutsus. Note he didnt even have Mangekyou when he entered ANBU so he was incredibly strong without his Mangekyou.

Exactly..who cares about his Katon jutsu's. Kakashi was an anbu captain at a young age aswell it doesn't mean anything.


Did you miss sasuno, he cant die while it is activated.

He can't run after people with it either.


wow calm down. It means alot. Noone else was in ANBU at 13. I dont think Gai has ever mbeen in anbu has.

So? Kakashi was in Anbu at around the same age. And Gai is just about even with him so being in Anbu is meaningless.


I guess you missed sasuno then. Unless you think theres a stronger Jutsu? Perfect defence, and an incredible offence, like sasuno has.

Deidara's C4 is better than it. It's only good if he can actually catch his opponents who can just run away.

Its a minor factor. Sasuno and Amateratsu would still catch him.

No they wouldn't. Itachi has never run when using Susanoo so he can't catch anyone. Amaterasu dodged by Sasuke, and only hit by a 2nd one.


Itahci can still catch them. He has a good sharingan.

So? Sharingan doesn't make him move any faster, both Kakashi and Gai are faster than Itachi.

Exactly my point. His Mangekyou is just one area of his Jutsus. He got into ANBU without it thank you :D

Yet they're the only Jutsu's he uses 95% of the time.

Gee, care to think about the other things that lead him to his death

No because it doesn't matter, Susanoo is what killed him. It will either kill him or leave him exhausted and barely able to move.

OMG see you still havent gotten your head around it. Madar even said the disease killed him PLus he used amateratsu 2 times. the second time was a humungus one also.


You still haven't got your head around that Itachi isn't the strongest person to ever walk out of Konoha.

[rush rush]

Nicely put Muffin

[9TailedBijuu]

No they wouldn't. Itachi has never run when using Susanoo so he can't catch anyone. Amaterasu dodged by Sasuke, and only hit by a 2nd one.

Well he never had to run with Susano so we don't really know if he can move while its activated.

No because it doesn't matter, Susanoo is what killed him. It will either kill him or leave him exhausted and barely able to move.

You can't say that it will kill him or leave him exhausted because as I pointed out Itachi was hit by Sasuke's new jutsu which left Itachi almost dead. Susano might have nothing to do with this. (If it does why didn't Itachi die right after he used it?)

Itachi is not a genius. Kakashi is around Shikamaru's intelligence. Itachi is not, thats not opinion it's fact. He was tricked by Kakashi who is much smarter than Itachi. Gai has shown he is dam smart when he's not busy being a nutcase. As for the things you pointed out i guess by all those intances he's smarter than Shikaku and Shikamaru too then huh?

Beeing tricked once isn't really the proof of Kakashi beeing smarter than Itachi. At the battle anything can happen and anyone can make such simple mistakes as that. Also Kakashi was fighting a "fake Itachi" which means he was only at his 30%. It means that his speed and reaction time are slower than of the real Itachi and thats why he was tricked by Kakashi's moves.

Itachi must be smart. He was anbu at age of 13. You must have some brains to be able to do something like this.
Also he was a spy for a long time and he was able to not get cought.
BTW he was always praised of beeing smart :)

[WhiteFang]

That was only 30% Itachi.
Yes it was. But the brains were the same. He was outsmarted. And regardless, although Itachi was 30% as Kisame later stated, the presence of less chakra just inhibited the no. of techs. they could use. Itachi's 3-tomoe was working perfectly fine. Yet, Kakashi's technique execution was fast enough that Itachi failed to notice. Itachi accepted that himself.


Not against sharingan user.
Actually no. With people as fast as Gai and Kakashi in the picture, sharingan really can't do much. And Kakashi is really good at working out strategies.


I am not underestimating him. He's simply weak against mangekyou.

No he is not. You are underestimating him. Tell me, how the heck is Gai weak against MS. He won't get caught in Tsukyomi. He is much faster than Amaterasu with the gates open, and he has much much more stamina that Itachi.

Yes, they're working together.
But KAkashi has just now summoned the dogs.
And is charging his MS.
Can he fight Itachi at the same time?

Again, wrong. The dogs have been summoned, and as we have already seen, they hardly take chakra to summon. And it's about 8 dogs. Kakashi is not charging his MS right now. Itachi is holding off Gai with the open gates. He's already preoccupied. Now Kakashi sends out his dogs. And he himself can use extensive ninjutsu. Washing him up with a Suiton tech. is not a bad idea.


Actually I think that Itachi can fight in normal world while at the same time having someone trapped in genjutsu.
And it's not just an assumption.
See, in 30% Itachi vs. Team Kakashi, Naruto was in the genjutsu for quite a time.
And Sakura and Chiyo were the ones that dispelled it.
I doubt Kakashi was just standing still all that time.
He would have attacked Itachi if he knew that he can't defend himself while having someone captured in genjutsu.
Not only attacked.. He would have killed him. One direct chidori is enough to finish him off.
Kakashi did not do that... because Naruto went out and did Rasengan on an empty space. Naruto was being stupid as usual. It took him a long time to realise that he was in a genjutsu. Gai however is not that stupid. He'd know faster. And he has more of an iron will. And since this is not Tsukyomi, it can be dispelled easily by Kakashi or Kakashi can go and finish off Itachi. You can actually do that against regular sharingan. Here is proof:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/06/
Tsukyomi is the only exception since it takes affect in a split second. And Kakashi and Gai are not making eye contact, so they are not getting caught in it.

Not by dogs.
And Kakashi is charging his MS now.
He's pretty low on chakra anyways I wonder if he would be able to use all those stuff and still be able to fight.
Kakashi's chakra levels are severely underestimated. He does not have too much chakra, but it is not too less either. He lasted a fairly long time against Hidan and Kakuzu, and later also told Naruto that he had enough chakra left to use MS had help not arrived.


Yes.. I agree. One bunshin however won't cost much.
If I'm not wrong before Sasuke/Itachi fight ITachi created two shadow clones one to search for Sasuke and one for Naruto.
And afterwards he still created one clone in the fight AND used all three of his techniques(although the last one killed him).
Itachi clearly has much more chakra than Kakashi.
He does not. Kakashi is just as good with the Bunshins. And Itachi is out numbered here. Gai clearly has much more stamina and chakra than Itachi.

He burns them or kills them with shuriken before they get to him.
No he does not. If you have not noticed yet, they are earth summons, perfectly capable of moving under the ground and making a sneak attack.

Well he never had to run with Susano so we don't really know if he can move while its activated. [?QUOTE]
That's because he can't. He's pretty much stationary inside that shield of his. His movement is restricted.

[QUOTE]You can't say that it will kill him or leave him exhausted because as I pointed out Itachi was hit by Sasuke's new jutsu which left Itachi almost dead. Susano might have nothing to do with this. (If it does why didn't Itachi die right after he used it?)
You have all the facts wrong. Itachi was not hit by any of Sasuke's jutsus. Sasuke deliberately fired the fire dragons such that they would miss, they were not aimed at Itachi. And Itachi pulled out Susanoo to block Kirin, as that was the only way. Else he would have been fried. So, yes, Susanoo completely depletes him of chakra. He's as good as dead after using it.

Beeing tricked once isn't really the proof of Kakashi beeing smarter than Itachi. At the battle anything can happen and anyone can make such simple mistakes as that. Also Kakashi was fighting a "fake Itachi" which means he was only at his 30%. It means that his speed and reaction time are slower than of the real Itachi and thats why he was tricked by Kakashi's moves.
Actually, there are far too many other proofs of Kakashi being exceptionally smart. Itachi on the other hand, many a times trusts his sharingan too much.

Now for the clone, lets clear up a few things. Yes, that Itachi was 30%. But NO, his reaction times and speed were not slower. They were the same. There was just a limitation to the no. of techs he could use. Here:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/260/17/

Itachi must be smart. He was anbu at age of 13. You must have some brains to be able to do something like this.
Also he was a spy for a long time and he was able to not get cought.
BTW he was always praised of beeing smart :)
Kakashi was also an ANBU fairly young. And everyone there seem to have immense respect for him. He was jonin at 13. He invented his own jutsu at that age, and now as we know had already mastered rasengan first. His intelligence is at the level of Shikamaru and that's saying something. And as far as praise is concerned, Tsunade and Jiraiya deem him fit for Hokage. And that title is not just based on strength. You have to be an all-round skilled shinobi. Kakashi just isn't strong and skilled, he's smart and wise too. He can handle almost anything thrown at him.

[9TailedBijuu]

Ok.. Perhaps Itachi isn't as smart as Kakashi but still he isn't stupid either.

I wanted to say soemthing about Gai.
No he is not. You are underestimating him. Tell me, how the heck is Gai weak against MS. He won't get caught in Tsukyomi. He is much faster than Amaterasu with the gates open, and he has much much more stamina that Itachi.

How does he supposed to avoid Amaterasu when he can't look into Itachi's eyes? He might be able to notice it after few seconds of release but it might be too late.

BTW. Itachi don't have to always rely on Tsukuyomi, Ametarasu and Susano he has lots of other techniques that he copied with sharingan.

[WhiteFang]

^^ No. He doesn't need to. Itachi needs to do some handseals to do Amaterasu, Gai will see that since he has trained himself to just not look in the eyes. He can see the seals. Besides, Gai has the heal gate which heals all injuries.
This battle goes to Gai and Kakashi. Until and unless offcourse you can justify everything else which I have said.

[Smiley]

Kakashi did not do that... because Naruto went out and did Rasengan on an empty space. Naruto was being stupid as usual. It took him a long time to realise that he was in a genjutsu. Gai however is not that stupid. He'd know faster. And he has more of an iron will. And since this is not Tsukyomi, it can be dispelled easily by Kakashi or Kakashi can go and finish off Itachi. You can actually do that against regular sharingan. Here is proof:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/06/
Tsukyomi is the only exception since it takes affect in a split second. And Kakashi and Gai are not making eye contact, so they are not getting caught in it.

Kakashi did not do what?
I said that if he COULD attack he WOULD HAVE.
If ITachi was defenseless while having Naruto trapped in genjutsu he would have killed him, hence the genjutsu lasted for a while he had plenty of time.
My point was that Kakashi can't dispell genjutsu that Itachi traps Gai in because Itachi can fight at the same time..


He does not. Kakashi is just as good with the Bunshins. And Itachi is out numbered here. Gai clearly has much more stamina and chakra than Itachi.

Gai's pretty much beaten after being caught in finger/crow genjutsu.

No he does not. If you have not noticed yet, they are earth summons, perfectly capable of moving under the ground and making a sneak attack.

.. Which won't work against sharingan.Kakashi has to do a hand-seal to summon the dogs, Itachi will read it and will know what's coming. Plus he can see chakra underground with his sharingan. He can easily avoid the dogs and then burn them with katon or kill them with shurikens.


Now for the clone, lets clear up a few things. Yes, that Itachi was 30%. But NO, his reaction times and speed were not slower. They were the same. There was just a limitation to the no. of techs he could use. Here:



That doesn't make any difference. They were trying there best and we all know that his intention was not to kill them. He didn't even use MS then.


I did not want to quote every paragraph because most of the stuff depend on opinion.

[WhiteFang]

Kakashi did not do what?
I said that if he COULD attack he WOULD HAVE.
No. Not with Naruto behaving so immaturely on the battlefield. It would have been a bad move.
If ITachi was defenseless while having Naruto trapped in genjutsu he would have killed him, hence the genjutsu lasted for a while he had plenty of time.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/
Kakashi got to him actually.

My point was that Kakashi can't dispell genjutsu that Itachi traps Gai in because Itachi can fight at the same time..
http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000257/06.jpg


Gai's pretty much beaten after being caught in finger/crow genjutsu.
No. Naruto wasn't. Gai definitely won't be. Regular genjutsu will just serve to waste Itachi's chakra.


.. Which won't work against sharingan.Kakashi has to do a hand-seal to summon the dogs, Itachi will read it and will know what's coming. Plus he can see chakra underground with his sharingan. He can easily avoid the dogs and then burn them with katon or kill them with shurikens.
Check out Hidan-Kakuzu battle, he did Kuchiyose without hand-seals. And you are once again missing the point. Itachi is already preoccupied with Gai. Then there is the dogs and Kakashi. That's 3 attacks from 3 different directions. Itachi's in big trouble.


That doesn't make any difference.
It does.

They were trying there best and we all know that his intention was not to kill them.
No they were not. Chiyo and Sakura did not fight. And Kakashi barely broke a sweat. Naruto was the only one who got a little worked up. And when Kakashi actually took Itachi on, the battle finished after that, real soon.

He didn't even use MS then.
He couldn't actually.

I did not want to quote every paragraph because most of the stuff depend on opinion.

Its fact.

[Muffin]

Kakashi was also an ANBU fairly young. And everyone there seem to have immense respect for him. He was jonin at 13. He invented his own jutsu at that age, and now as we know had already mastered rasengan first.

Just wanted to add the only jutsu he ever invented was Chidori. Which he learnt as a gennin.

Gai's pretty much beaten after being caught in finger/crow genjutsu.

No because Gai is not Naruto. Naruto was still very weak against Genjutsu, Gai is way to experienced to be beaten by normal genjutsu.

[Smiley]

No. Not with Naruto behaving so immaturely on the battlefield. It would have been a bad move.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/
Kakashi got to him actually.


Hm.. okay. That just justifies my point from the last post: Itaci can fight while having Gai trapped in genjutsu. He's not a sitting duck.

No. Naruto wasn't. Gai definitely won't be. Regular genjutsu will just serve to waste Itachi's chakra.

Yes, he will be.
The only way to dispell that kind of genjutsu is that you have a comrade that will dispell it for you. And Kakashi will be too busy holding off Itachi.

Check out Hidan-Kakuzu battle, he did Kuchiyose without hand-seals. And you are once again missing the point. Itachi is already preoccupied with Gai. Then there is the dogs and Kakashi. That's 3 attacks from 3 different directions. Itachi's in big trouble.


Couple of shurikens can solve the dog problem.
Dogs are only useful for surprise attacks from underground, which won't work on Itachi because he can see chakra underground.


No they were not. Chiyo and Sakura did not fight. And Kakashi barely broke a sweat. Naruto was the only one who got a little worked up. And when Kakashi actually took Itachi on, the battle finished after that, real soon.


And that was only 30% Itachi that couldn't use MS.



Its fact.

No.

No because Gai is not Naruto. Naruto was still very weak against Genjutsu, Gai is way to experienced to be beaten by normal genjutsu.

Jiraiya said that if stopping the chakra flow in your head won't work, the only way to get out of genjutsu is that your comrade dispells it your you.
No matter how skilled he is(and there's no actual proof that Gai can dispell genjutsu - he never has) he can't dispell it alone.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/10/

[Muffin]

Jiraiya said that if stopping the chakra flow in your head won't work, the only way to get out of genjutsu is that your comrade dispells it your you.
No matter how skilled he is(and there's no actual proof that Gai can dispell genjutsu - he never has) he can't dispell it alone.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/10/

There's been barely anyone who actually has dispelled genjutsu by themselves, Kurenei and Deidara are the only two whom come to mind but that doesn't mean noone besides them can. Naruto was still very inexperienced against genjutsu, Gai is not in the least inexperienced.

[Smiley]

Deidara spend years to develop his sharingan-genjutsu counter.
And Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist.
In his two and a half years training with Jiraiya the only stuff Naruto learned were:
- Oodama rasengan(that he used only once)
- How to stop chakra flow in his head.

And that would be about it. So I doubt that he is weak at it, hence that's pretty much the only thing he learned and is useful during the time-skip.
As for the other jounin we have no idea how good they're at dispelling genjutsu once they're caught. Therefore we don't know about Gai either.
Also, in hunt for Uchiha arc Naruto was again caught in Itachi's genjutsu and still wasn't skilled enough to dispell it.
Saying that Gai can get out of genjutsu by himself is pretty much an assumption.

[Muffin]

Deidara spend years to develop his sharingan-genjutsu counter.
And Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist.
In his two and a half years training with Jiraiya the only stuff Naruto learned were:
- Oodama rasengan(that he used only once)
- How to stop chakra flow in his head.

And that would be about it. So I doubt that he is weak at it, hence that's pretty much the only thing he learned and is useful during the time-skip.
As for the other jounin we have no idea how good they're at dispelling genjutsu once they're caught. Therefore we don't know about Gai either.
Also, in hunt for Uchiha arc Naruto was again caught in Itachi's genjutsu and still wasn't skilled enough to dispell it.
Saying that Gai can get out of genjutsu by himself is pretty much an assumption.

We don't know the extent of what he's learnt from Jiraiya. He's never had a full out battle to shown the extent of his training. Naruto seems to have a serious weakness towards Genjutsu which is why he's repeatedly beaten by Genjutsu.

Kurenei bit her lip. Gai can bite his lip. There's one way Gai can dispel genjutsu. Shikamaru and Sakura both managed to get out of genjutsu as Chunnin Gai definitely has way more experience under his belt than both of them put together, it's simply far too unlikely that Gai actually cannot get out of normal Genjutsu.

[Smiley]

We don't know the extent of what he's learnt from Jiraiya. He's never had a full out battle to shown the extent of his training. Naruto seems to have a serious weakness towards Genjutsu which is why he's repeatedly beaten by Genjutsu.

Kurenei bit her lip. Gai can bite his lip. There's one way Gai can dispel genjutsu. Shikamaru and Sakura both managed to get out of genjutsu as Chunnin Gai definitely has way more experience under his belt than both of them put together, it's simply far too unlikely that Gai actually cannot get out of normal Genjutsu.

That was Kabuto's genjutsu .It most likely isn't the same level as Itachi's. Plus it was targetted at like.. 1000 people.
If every genjutsu can be broken by biting your lip Jiraiya would have told Naruto that and Naruto would have gotten out of it easily.
This is most likely a high-level genjutsu that can't be broken so easily.
I have a couple of other examples where really strong characters couldn't break the genjutsu

1. Third couldn't break the 1st's genjutsu even though he had a sword pierced through his body. (he felt pain, much greater than if he had bitten his lip)
2. Pain who is most likely one of the strongest characters in manga couldn't break Jiraiya's genjutsu

[WhiteFang]

Just wanted to add the only jutsu he ever invented was Chidori. Which he learnt as a gennin.

That's what I said too, right? He invented Chidori and learnt Rasengan. All that at 13.

[9TailedBijuu]

That's what I said too, right? He invented Chidori and learnt Rasengan. All that at 13.

Where does it say that he learned rasengan at 13?

[WhiteFang]

^^ Its what it implies actually. Kakashi said while teaching Naruto that he was forced to invent chidori because he was unable to mix his elemental nature with Rasengan. And since he was infact 13 when he used the chidori in the Gaiden, means he'd already learnt Rasengan.

[9TailedBijuu]

^^ Its what it implies actually. Kakashi said while teaching Naruto that he was forced to invent chidori because he was unable to mix his elemental nature with Rasengan. And since he was infact 13 when he used the chidori in the Gaiden, means he'd already learnt Rasengan.

Oh..

[WhiteFang]

Hm.. okay. That just justifies my point from the last post: Itaci can fight while having Gai trapped in genjutsu. He's not a sitting duck.

Yes, he will be.
The only way to dispell that kind of genjutsu is that you have a comrade that will dispell it for you. And Kakashi will be too busy holding off Itachi.

No. At max. what he was able to do there was dodge. He can't fight.

Couple of shurikens can solve the dog problem.
Dogs are only useful for surprise attacks from underground, which won't work on Itachi because he can see chakra underground.

He has to take care of Gai and Kakashi. Do you think he'll have time to look at the ground and track the dogs' movements underground. And he can't see chakra through solid ground. The sharingan does not have that much insight. It is only restricted to Byakugan. So, not only will he not have time to, he won't be able to altogether.

Jiraiya said that if stopping the chakra flow in your head won't work, the only way to get out of genjutsu is that your comrade dispells it your you.
No matter how skilled he is(and there's no actual proof that Gai can dispell genjutsu - he never has) he can't dispell it alone.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/10/

So? No problem, Kakashi can dispel it. I haven't once seen Itachi attack someone while he's using genjutsu. So he can't. Kakashi can easily dispel that.

[XuchihaXsasukeX]

White fang i stand to correct what u said about sharingan not being ablee to see underground!!
Remeber in the sasuke vs. deidara fight when sasuke clearly states that his sharingan gives color to chakra so he could therefore see the bombs underground!!
So infact the sharingan can see chakra although its underground

[MinatoNamikaze]

Yea i guess im sorry we both could not agrre this time oh well we're all still friends here i respect all of your opinions!!!

Like wise. And friend dont have to agree on everything. Thats half the fun. :D

[MinatoNamikaze]

I would just like to point out to everyone that has stated that Gai and Kakashi can just leave when sasuno appears and Itahci cant chase them, that if they leave the fight THEY LOOSE. You cant just come and go and consider it a fight. Once once person leaves they surrender and retreat.

[MinatoNamikaze]

He has to take care of Gai and Kakashi. Do you think he'll have time to look at the ground and track the dogs' movements underground.

Why wouldnt he be able to?

And he can't see chakra through solid ground. The sharingan does not have that much insight. It is only restricted to Byakugan. So, not only will he not have time to, he won't be able to altogether.

Ya, it can see through the ground, enough to see chakra that is. Look at the sasuke and Deidar fight.

So? No problem, Kakashi can dispel it. I haven't once seen Itachi attack someone while he's using genjutsu. So he can't. Kakashi can easily dispel that.

The I guess you missed the whole Kakashi and Naruto vs itahci fight where Naruto was in genjutsu and Kakashi was fighting Itachi.

[Smiley]

No. At max. what he was able to do there was dodge. He can't fight.

Lemme see. He was able to dodge, but he couldn't attack?
I fail to see the logic there.

He has to take care of Gai and Kakashi. Do you think he'll have time to look at the ground and track the dogs' movements underground. And he can't see chakra through solid ground. The sharingan does not have that much insight. It is only restricted to Byakugan. So, not only will he not have time to, he won't be able to altogether.

Yes, sharingan can see chakra underground.
Check Deidara vs. Sasuke battle.
And about how he'll be able to make it all in time..
He just has to make a shadow clone. Use the clone to track and kill the dogs, and the original to beat Kakashi.


So? No problem, Kakashi can dispel it. I haven't once seen Itachi attack someone while he's using genjutsu. So he can't. Kakashi can easily dispel that.

Not if he's busy fighting Itachi.

One more thing that I've just realized.
Itachi doesn't even have to create the shadow clone.
See, the whole thing has already happened.
Naruto(in our case- Gai) trapped in genjutsu, Kakashi fighting Itachi.
If Itachi couldn't dodge Kakashi's attacks AND track the dogs at the same time then surely Kakashi would have used the dogs and beaten Itachi before Chiyo and Sakura even broke the genjutsu.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Lemme see. He was able to dodge, but he couldn't attack?
I fail to see the logic there.



Yes, sharingan can see chakra underground.
Check Deidara vs. Sasuke battle.
And about how he'll be able to make it all in time..
He just has to make a shadow clone. Use the clone to track and kill the dogs, and the original to beat Kakashi.




Not if he's busy fighting Itachi.

One more thing that I've just realized.
Itachi doesn't even have to create the shadow clone.
See, the whole thing has already happened.
Naruto(in our case- Gai) trapped in genjutsu, Kakashi fighting Itachi.
If Itachi couldn't dodge Kakashi's attacks AND track the dogs at the same time then surely Kakashi would have used the dogs and beaten Itachi before Chiyo and Sakura even broke the genjutsu.

Agreed. Good points by the way

[Muffin]

That was Kabuto's genjutsu .It most likely isn't the same level as Itachi's. Plus it was targetted at like.. 1000 people.
If every genjutsu can be broken by biting your lip Jiraiya would have told Naruto that and Naruto would have gotten out of it easily.
This is most likely a high-level genjutsu that can't be broken so easily.
I have a couple of other examples where really strong characters couldn't break the genjutsu

1. Third couldn't break the 1st's genjutsu even though he had a sword pierced through his body. (he felt pain, much greater than if he had bitten his lip)
2. Pain who is most likely one of the strongest characters in manga couldn't break Jiraiya's genjutsu

I guess Jiraiya felt like telling Naruto a more reliable way to break Genjutsu instead of tearing his lips to shreds. But seeing as Gai has shown he is not as weak against Genjutsu as Naruto it is still very likely that Gai can break it himself.

The third undid the Genjutsu once he killed the 1st with the Dead demon sealing. The sword was put through him after he killed the first.
Because Jiraiya's Genjutsu paralyzed all the nerves in his body rendering him unable to move, Itachi can't do that so it doesn't even matter.

[WhiteFang]

Lemme see. He was able to dodge, but he couldn't attack?
I fail to see the logic there.
Well I can't help it then.



Yes, sharingan can see chakra underground.
Check Deidara vs. Sasuke battle.
And about how he'll be able to make it all in time..
He just has to make a shadow clone. Use the clone to track and kill the dogs, and the original to beat Kakashi.
That was my bad. I forgot about that fight. Anyways, Itachi can't take care of Gai and Kakashi and track the dogs. The Bunshin? He's again wasting chakra. Just how many will he make? And eight dogs vs One Bunshin?

Not if he's busy fighting Itachi.
Wow. Just wow.
He'll be busy fighting Itachi?
In all the genjutsus I've seen till now, Itachi has been absolutely still Rooted to the same spot. Kakashi can dispel it. The link proves it. The strategy works against regular genjutsu.

One more thing that I've just realized.
Itachi doesn't even have to create the shadow clone.
See, the whole thing has already happened.
Naruto(in our case- Gai) trapped in genjutsu, Kakashi fighting Itachi.

Prove to me Itachi can move while using regular genjutsu.

Stop comparing Gai to Naruto. Naruto is most pathetic against genjutsu. Gai is not. And Naruto released chakra to get out. If Gai opens the gates whilst in genjutsu, he'll release a damn hell lot of chakra, Itachi won't definitely be able to hold that.

[QUOTE]If Itachi couldn't dodge Kakashi's attacks AND track the dogs at the same time then surely Kakashi would have used the dogs and beaten Itachi before Chiyo and Sakura even broke the genjutsu.

Again, no. Naruto, was out there, stuck in genjutsu, and he did a rasengan on an empty space. With Naruto beserking, it would have been a bad move. Another thing is that, if you have four members in your team, its the logical thing to not waste too much of your chakra and do everything. That's why Kakashi did not do the aforementioned things and just end it. Another thing was that he wanted Naruto to fight alongside him. Learn to deal with an opponent.

And now, another thing is that quit comparing Gai to Naruto. Naruto is the only guy in the entire series who falls so easily for genjutsu. Gai on the other hand, is not the same. One more thing is, Naruto was just standing still there like a fool as usual, and shouting obscenities. Gai is very very fast, when the heck will Itachi point a finger at him.

[9TailedBijuu]

Stop comparing Gai to Naruto. Naruto is most pathetic against genjutsu. Gai is not. And Naruto released chakra to get out. If Gai opens the gates whilst in genjutsu, he'll release a damn hell lot of chakra, Itachi won't definitely be able to hold that.

The logic behind stopping Genjutsu is to stop the flow of chakra. If Gai would release his gates it will make it impossible for him to get out of that genjutsu because his body will be over flowing with chakra. (I doubt that even Kakashi will be able to dispel the genjutsu that will be placed on Gai while his gates are open)

I don't understand one thing. Why do everyone think that Gai can so easily get out of Genjutsu? We never actualy saw him in a Genjutsu before (except at the arena but that doesn't really count because it was incredibly weak) so no one can really say that he will be able to fight against Genjutsu user.

And now, another thing is that quit comparing Gai to Naruto. Naruto is the only guy in the entire series who falls so easily for genjutsu. Gai on the other hand, is not the same. One more thing is, Naruto was just standing still there like a fool as usual, and shouting obscenities. Gai is very very fast, when the heck will Itachi point a finger at him.

How hard is it to point at Gai with a finger while he is charging his gates? At the fight with Naruto even Kakashi wasn't expecting Itachi to use genjutsu by pointing with a finger so Gai shouldn't know it either and so he will be cought in a Genjutsu while charging his gates and he will be stuck in that genjutsu because he wont be able to stop flow of his chakra.

[WhiteFang]

The logic behind stopping Genjutsu is to stop the flow of chakra. If Gai would release his gates it will make it impossible for him to get out of that genjutsu because his body will be over flowing with chakra. (I doubt that even Kakashi will be able to dispel the genjutsu that will be placed on Gai while his gates are open)

No. If you pay attention to Jiraiya's explanation, genjutsus work by controlling the chakra flow of the users mind, not stopping it. That leads to the hallucinations.
The logic behind stopping genjutsus is 2 things:
1. Releasing large amounts of chakra from your body.
2. By insertion of chakra by your teammates, which cancels out the effect of the genjutsus.

I don't understand one thing. Why do everyone think that Gai can so easily get out of Genjutsu? We never actualy saw him in a Genjutsu before (except at the arena but that doesn't really count because it was incredibly weak) so no one can really say that he will be able to fight against Genjutsu user.
Similarly I don't understand how in the world people compare Gai to Naruto and consider him an idiot, which he definitely is not. Gai is a jonin. He has beaten Kakashi. He knows how to fight a sharingan wielder. Itachi has himself said that he should not be underestimated.
Gai can take care of genjutsus. The gates release unimaginable amounts of chakra, if Gai does that, there is no way Itachi will be able to continue to hold the genjutsu by controlling his chakra flow. The chakra release will be enormous.

How hard is it to point at Gai with a finger while he is charging his gates? At the fight with Naruto even Kakashi wasn't expecting Itachi to use genjutsu by pointing with a finger so Gai shouldn't know it either and so he will be cought in a Genjutsu while charging his gates and he will be stuck in that genjutsu because he wont be able to stop flow of his chakra.

See.. its quite difficult actually. With so much chakra being emitted out that anti-gravity accelerations are produced, its not so easy.
And Itachi's genjutsus are over-rated actually. Tell me, if his finger genjutsu is actually so effective, in the Naruto-Kakashi Vs Itachi fight you just mentioned, why didn't Itachi point his finger at Kakashi? Kakashi's sharingan eye was even covered then. It would have been a fairly wise idea to take down Kakashi first. But he did not because he knew it would be useless against someone Kakashi's level. Or any other jonin for that matter. Kurenei got out fairly easy by biting her lip. Jonins are well trained to handle this sort of stuff... that's why they are jonins.
The only person who Itachi has been able to catch in his genjutsu is Naruto, who is hopelessly pathetic with it.

[Smiley]

That was my bad. I forgot about that fight. Anyways, Itachi can't take care of Gai and Kakashi and track the dogs. The Bunshin? He's again wasting chakra. Just how many will he make? And eight dogs vs One Bunshin?

Yes. One bunshin is enough. Dogs are good only for surprise attacks, which won't work on Itachi.
As I said, he's only got to hit them with shuriken.

Prove to me Itachi can move while using regular genjutsu.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/
Itachi is clearly moving(he's above the ground).


Stop comparing Gai to Naruto. Naruto is most pathetic against genjutsu. Gai is not. And Naruto released chakra to get out. If Gai opens the gates whilst in genjutsu, he'll release a damn hell lot of chakra, Itachi won't definitely be able to hold that.

No.. See, this is where you're wrong. Releasing chakra won't break the genjutsu. The key is in stopping the chakra flow in your head.
Releasing a large amount of chakra will only make genjutsu worse.

Again, no. Naruto, was out there, stuck in genjutsu, and he did a rasengan on an empty space. With Naruto beserking, it would have been a bad move. Another thing is that, if you have four members in your team, its the logical thing to not waste too much of your chakra and do everything. That's why Kakashi did not do the aforementioned things and just end it. Another thing was that he wanted Naruto to fight alongside him. Learn to deal with an opponent.

Naruto never did a rasengan on an empty space.. That was a filler.. In manga he was standing still the whole time.


And now, another thing is that quit comparing Gai to Naruto. Naruto is the only guy in the entire series who falls so easily for genjutsu. Gai on the other hand, is not the same. One more thing is, Naruto was just standing still there like a fool as usual, and shouting obscenities. Gai is very very fast, when the heck will Itachi point a finger at him.


He has to keep an eye on his hands to watch-out for hand-seals and if getting in the close combat with him, watching hands is necessary.
Plus he's got the crow genjutsu for that neither Gai or Kakashi know.

[WhiteFang]

Yes. One bunshin is enough. Dogs are good only for surprise attacks, which won't work on Itachi.
As I said, he's only got to hit them with shuriken.
Not for 8 dogs.
And I observed, Itachi failed to notice the underground Bunshin in time. He was caught off-guard when the Bunshin burst through the ground.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/
Itachi is clearly moving(he's above the ground).
OMG you have vision problems. The guy in the air is Kakashi. He has a back pack. Zoom it and observe closely. The guy on the ground is Itachi.. in the Akatsuki cloak.

No.. See, this is where you're wrong. Releasing chakra won't break the genjutsu. The key is in stopping the chakra flow in your head.
Releasing a large amount of chakra will only make genjutsu worse.
Itachi is controlling the chakra flow in Gai's head to make the genjutsu work. All Gai needs to do, is use more power to disrupt the chakra flow. And he can do that far better than Naruto. Its basically about overpowering your opponents hold on your brain. Clearly, Naruto released Ki to try and get out.
That genjutsu simply is not of that high a level. Otherwise why didn't Itachi target Kakashi. Naruto is the only character dumb enough to get caught by that.

Naruto never did a rasengan on an empty space.. That was a filler.. In manga he was standing still the whole time.
He did do a rasengan. In the genjutsu. I'm not sure if he did it in actuality.


He has to keep an eye on his hands to watch-out for hand-seals and if getting in the close combat with him, watching hands is necessary.
Plus he's got the crow genjutsu for that neither Gai or Kakashi know.

Crow genjutsu? That's like any other regular genjutsu.

[Smiley]

I guess Jiraiya felt like telling Naruto a more reliable way to break Genjutsu instead of tearing his lips to shreds. But seeing as Gai has shown he is not as weak against Genjutsu as Naruto it is still very likely that Gai can break it himself.

The third undid the Genjutsu once he killed the 1st with the Dead demon sealing. The sword was put through him after he killed the first.
Because Jiraiya's Genjutsu paralyzed all the nerves in his body rendering him unable to move, Itachi can't do that so it doesn't even matter.

But wouldn't bitting your lip be easier?
Naruto isn't a noob in breaking genjutsu.
They spent two and a half years doing what exactly?
We've already seen Naruto fight enough that is safe to say that there isn't anything he learned with Jiraiya that we haven't seen yet.
Jiriaya was preparing him for counter with Akatsuki.. And Itachi is the one who uses genjutsu.
If they were training Naruto's control of Kyuubi's chakra then I must say that Jiraiya sucks as a ninja trainer, Naruto was twice almost killed as a result of releasing Kyuubi AFTER the time-skip (after his training with Jiraiya).
And about the third.. I don't have time to check now, but if I remember well, he was in genjutsu even after the sword was pierced through his body? And if dispelling it was as simple as bitting your lip third would have done it.

Yet, he was able to talk.
Also, remember the genjutsu they were caught in forest of death?
None of them dispelled it by bitting their lips, or similar.
We get the idea that there are genjutsus that aren't that simple to dispell.

don't understand one thing. Why do everyone think that Gai can so easily get out of Genjutsu? We never actualy saw him in a Genjutsu before (except at the arena but that doesn't really count because it was incredibly weak


Agreed, except for one thing.
We don't even know if it was Gai who broke that genjutsu, Kakashi could have woken up.

imilarly I don't understand how in the world people compare Gai to Naruto and consider him an idiot, which he definitely is not. Gai is a jonin. He has beaten Kakashi.

In rock paper scissors?

And Itachi's genjutsus are over-rated actually. Tell me, if his finger genjutsu is actually so effective, in the Naruto-Kakashi Vs Itachi fight you just mentioned, why didn't Itachi point his finger at Kakashi? Kakashi's sharingan eye was even covered then. It would have been a fairly wise idea to take down Kakashi first. But he did not because he knew it would be useless against someone Kakashi's level. Or any other jonin for that matter. Kurenei got out fairly easy by biting her lip. Jonins are well trained to handle this sort of stuff... that's why they are jonins.

Proof of this? We've never seen any jounin breaking the high-level jutsu.. Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist. She spent her whole life on developing genjutsu and ways of dispelling it, it is expected from her to know how to break one.

Not for 8 dogs.
And I observed, Itachi failed to notice the underground Bunshin in time. He was caught off-guard when the Bunshin burst through the ground.

Dogs are only effective when they do a surprise attack which won't work on Itachi. Other than that, they can easily be killed with a couple of shurikens.

OMG you have vision problems. The guy in the air is Kakashi. He has a back pack. Zoom it and observe closely. The guy on the ground is Itachi.. in the Akatsuki cloak.

lol, no.. I was refferring to the Akatsuki cloak person(Itachi).
If you look closely you'll notice that he is as well a bit above the ground(=he was moving).

Itachi is controlling the chakra flow in Gai's head to make the genjutsu work. All Gai needs to do, is use more power to disrupt the chakra flow. And he can do that far better than Naruto. Its basically about overpowering your opponents hold on your brain. Clearly, Naruto released Ki to try and get out.
That genjutsu simply is not of that high a level. Otherwise why didn't Itachi target Kakashi. Naruto is the only character dumb enough to get caught by that.

We both know that it wasn't his intention to kill them. IMO it was pretty dumb he used finger genjutsu on Naruto in first place, it was just a waste of chakra, he KNEW that Chiyo and Sakura would have dispelled it sooner or later. If he used it on Kakashi as well it would just be an extra waste of chakra, knowing that Sakura would have dispelled it same as she did with Naruto.
Plus Kakashi has sharingan, that can see through genjutsu. It would have been a complete waste of chakra if he used it on Kakashi.



He did do a rasengan. In the genjutsu. I'm not sure if he did it in actuality.

In genjutsu, yeah..
Therefore, he wasn't doing anything to disrupt Kakashi's work, if he thought that summoning dogs would have worked, he would have done it that day and surprised Itachi from underground.

[xxx4everscenexxx]

I think Itachi would win because he is awesome! :^^:

[9TailedBijuu]

I don't know why but I can't help but think that if Kishimoto ever placed Gai, Kakashi and Itachi on the same battlefield Itachi would win..

[xxx4everscenexxx]

I was thinking the same :^^: Itachi seems a lot stronger. :itachi:

[MinatoNamikaze]

You know what, theres really no point in debating this anymore. We arent going to change anyones minds here. I say debate over. I personally believe Itahci would win but, I dont want to continue this debate anyomre.

[WhiteFang]

In rock paper scissors?
In battle. When he was talking to Rock Lee.

Proof of this? We've never seen any jounin breaking the high-level jutsu.. Kurenai is a genjutsu specialist. She spent her whole life on developing genjutsu and ways of dispelling it, it is expected from her to know how to break one.

High level jutsu?
A jutsu that can be broken by biting the lip is not high level.
And the genjutsu Itachi used on Naruto was not high level either. Because if it were truly that good, he would have used it on Kakashi, which he didn't. And as you said, with teammates present, he would have known that the genjutsu would eventually be dispelled. Yet he did that. It was a stupid move. He won't do it again against opponents of the level of Gai and Kakashi.
Another mentionable fact is that uptil now, Itachi's genjutsu has only and only proved effective in one on one battles. It's basically useless against multiple opponents.

Dogs are only effective when they do a surprise attack which won't work on Itachi. Other than that, they can easily be killed with a couple of shurikens.

Lemme guess. Itachi is taking care of Gai and Kakashi and he has time to focus on the dogs and use shuriken? I don't think so. He even failed to notice Kakashi's Bunshin in time which approached him from under the ground.

Also if you say that a Kage Bunshin will kill the dogs with shuriken, it won't. Bunshins can't use weapons. They have never been shown doing so.


lol, no.. I was refferring to the Akatsuki cloak person(Itachi).
If you look closely you'll notice that he is as well a bit above the ground(=he was moving).
No. He is not above the ground. He's a little behind from his position.

And this incident has happened after Chiyo and Sakura dispelled the genjutsu. Means Itachi was no longer using it. He was back to his usual stance.

We both know that it wasn't his intention to kill them. IMO it was pretty dumb he used finger genjutsu on Naruto in first place, it was just a waste of chakra, he KNEW that Chiyo and Sakura would have dispelled it sooner or later. If he used it on Kakashi as well it would just be an extra waste of chakra, knowing that Sakura would have dispelled it same as she did with Naruto.
Plus Kakashi has sharingan, that can see through genjutsu. It would have been a complete waste of chakra if he used it on Kakashi.

Exactly. And here we have a situation, when Kakashi is present along with Gai. Not Naruto. BTW, Itachi isn't fast either. Gai and Kakashi we know have a massive speed advantage in this situation.


Therefore, he wasn't doing anything to disrupt Kakashi's work, if he thought that summoning dogs would have worked, he would have done it that day and surprised Itachi from underground.
No he wouldn't have. One Bunshin takes less chakra than summoning the dogs. And that strategy worked, he probably had that planned through.

I think Itachi would win because he is awesome! :^^:
Wow. Good reasoning.

I don't know why but I can't help but think that if Kishimoto ever placed Gai, Kakashi and Itachi on the same battlefield Itachi would win..
And I can't help but think that Uchiha Itachi is overrated and the 2 strongest jonin of Konoha are perfectly capable of taking him down.

[Smiley]

In battle. When he was talking to Rock Lee.

I don't remember him ever saying that. I know that he said that he's stronger, but that's just his opinion.


High level jutsu?
A jutsu that can be broken by biting the lip is not high level.
And the genjutsu Itachi used on Naruto was not high level either. Because if it were truly that good, he would have used it on Kakashi, which he didn't. And as you said, with teammates present, he would have known that the genjutsu would eventually be dispelled. Yet he did that. It was a stupid move. He won't do it again against opponents of the level of Gai and Kakashi.
Another mentionable fact is that uptil now, Itachi's genjutsu has only and only proved effective in one on one battles. It's basically useless against multiple opponents.

Perhaps it's useless against more than two opponents, but here we have two. While Gai's in genjutsu Itachi will hold off/finish off Kakashi.

Lemme guess. Itachi is taking care of Gai and Kakashi and he has time to focus on the dogs and use shuriken? I don't think so. He even failed to notice Kakashi's Bunshin in time which approached him from under the ground.

He probably failed to track Kakashi's hand seal behind the fireball he fired at him. AND you've got to keep in mind that Itachi wasn't trying to kill him.
If Kakashi wants to summon the dogs he has to do a hand seal, which Itachi will read and create a shadow clone to kill the dogs.


Also if you say that a Kage Bunshin will kill the dogs with shuriken, it won't. Bunshins can't use weapons. They have never been shown doing so.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/387/09/



No. He is not above the ground. He's a little behind from his position.


Check again.

And this incident has happened after Chiyo and Sakura dispelled the genjutsu. Means Itachi was no longer using it. He was back to his usual stance.

They were ending their "fight".. retreating. Obviously, they did fight while Naruto was in genjutsu.
As I mentioned earlier, I don't understand your logic, he was able to dodge Kakashi's attacks, jump (= move) but not attack?


Exactly. And here we have a situation, when Kakashi is present along with Gai. Not Naruto. BTW, Itachi isn't fast either. Gai and Kakashi we know have a massive speed advantage in this situation.

Hahahahaha, Itachi isn't fast. This one was good :)
Even Kakashi commented in their first fight that he can barely catch up with his speed even with his sharingan.
Not to mention his speed of doing hand-seals, throwing shuriken etc.. I'm not gonna comment on that, just take a look at Sasuke/Itachi fight.


No he wouldn't have. One Bunshin takes less chakra than summoning the dogs. And that strategy worked, he probably had that planned through.

Itachi's got far more chakra than Kakashi so no problem.

[WhiteFang]

I don't remember him ever saying that. I know that he said that he's stronger, but that's just his opinion.
No. 8 gate Gai is stronger than anyone.. he's Hokage level. But that's beside the point.




Perhaps it's useless against more than two opponents, but here we have two. While Gai's in genjutsu Itachi will hold off/finish off Kakashi.
You've got real fine logic here.
Anyways, give me PROOF that Itachi can fight while casting genjutsu on a person. And finish off? Are you kidding me? Itachi can barely move. And that link is of after the genjutsu was already released. That is not even valid.

He probably failed to track Kakashi's hand seal behind the fireball he fired at him. AND you've got to keep in mind that Itachi wasn't trying to kill him.
If Kakashi wants to summon the dogs he has to do a hand seal, which Itachi will read and create a shadow clone to kill the dogs.


Whatever the reasons, Itachi failed to see the seals. This is an ideal hypothetical situation, so, in everyone of Itachi's fights he was not trying to kill anyone, but that doesn't mean we can start giving him "intention" advantages. We have to take what's there in those fights as fact.

You are clearly overrating Itachi's abilities. He can't take care of Kakashi while holding Gai in genjutsu and take care of the dogs. In actuality, there is no proof that Itachi can fight while he has put another person in genjutsu. Read this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/06/
Acc. to your theory, this is useless. But fact is that it is NOT. Chiyo had fought Uchihas, she definitely knew what she was talking about. This strategy only and only fails against Tsukyomi. And Gai and Kakashi are not getting caught in that. Against regular genjutsu this startegy works fairly well and two of the strongest jonin of Konoha in Gai and Kakashi WILL make it work.
You are arguing with a strategy that the manga proves true. It is successful under any circumstance against any real-time genjutsu.


They were ending their "fight".. retreating. Obviously, they did fight while Naruto was in genjutsu.
As I mentioned earlier, I don't understand your logic, he was able to dodge Kakashi's attacks, jump (= move) but not attack?

No. That is your assumption... that they were 'retreating'.
There is no proof that Itachi is able to "fight" whilst casting genjutsu on a person.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/14/
Here, he has not even moved an inch.

Hahahahaha, Itachi isn't fast. This one was good :)
Even Kakashi commented in their first fight that he can barely catch up with his speed even with his sharingan.
Not to mention his speed of doing hand-seals, throwing shuriken etc.. I'm not gonna comment on that, just take a look at Sasuke/Itachi fight.
His speed of seal formation is fast. But he ain't physically fast. No he is not. Both Gai and Kakashi are faster than him. And the first incident that you mention... although Kakashi was not able to keep up back then, Itachi only got the Mizu Bunshin, after that Kurenei behaved really stupidly, Kakashi had to jump in to save her.


Itachi's got far more chakra than Kakashi so no problem.
Far more? Prove it.

And chakra of 2 people > chakra of one.


And why do people assume that Gai will be caught in that crow genjutsu. As I've said before, the only one stupid enough to get caught was Naruto. Gai is not the same. He's much to faster. Itachi won't have time to point fingers at him.

[Bybo]

itachi would definitly win

[Smiley]

No. 8 gate Gai is stronger than anyone.. he's Hokage level. But that's beside the point.

There's a thread dedicated especially to that.
And IMO Kakashi can copy gates.

You've got real fine logic here.
Anyways, give me PROOF that Itachi can fight while casting genjutsu on a person. And finish off? Are you kidding me? Itachi can barely move. And that link is of after the genjutsu was already released. That is not even valid.

What's your point? That they stood still the whole time?
No, clearly they were landing after a combat.

You are clearly overrating Itachi's abilities. He can't take care of Kakashi while holding Gai in genjutsu and take care of the dogs. In actuality, there is no proof that Itachi can fight while he has put another person in genjutsu. Read this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/06/
Acc. to your theory, this is useless. But fact is that it is NOT. Chiyo had fought Uchihas, she definitely knew what she was talking about. This strategy only and only fails against Tsukyomi. And Gai and Kakashi are not getting caught in that. Against regular genjutsu this startegy works fairly well and two of the strongest jonin of Konoha in Gai and Kakashi WILL make it work.
You are arguing with a strategy that the manga proves true. It is successful under any circumstance against any real-time genjutsu.

No. I still claim that Itachi can fight while having someone trapped in genjutsu. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/
Take a look at that pic.
Naruto has just been released from genjutsu.
Next picture: Kakashi and Itachi in the air clearly retreating from a combat.
Now you're telling me that it all happened after Naruto was released from genjutsu? That's like.. a whole second.
And btw, Chiyo is talking about sharingan genjutsu. This was finger genjutsu.

No. That is your assumption... that they were 'retreating'.
There is no proof that Itachi is able to "fight" whilst casting genjutsu on a person.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/14/
Here, he has not even moved an inch.

First off, that's sharingan genjutsu, not finger/crow genjutsu.
Second off, why would he move when he's only fighting one opponent?
Sure, if he could move, he could easily have walked towards Sasuke and killed him, but that's not what he wanted is it?



His speed of seal formation is fast. But he ain't physically fast. No he is not. Both Gai and Kakashi are faster than him. And the first incident that you mention... although Kakashi was not able to keep up back then, Itachi only got the Mizu Bunshin, after that Kurenei behaved really stupidly, Kakashi had to jump in to save her.

I'm not going to argue against this because it really doesn't matter.
No matter how fast he is he can't escape amaterasu.



Far more? Prove it.

And chakra of 2 people > chakra of one.

Meh, I can prove it but it's kinda pointless you'll just say that it doesn't matter cause he's fighting the two of them >.>

And why do people assume that Gai will be caught in that crow genjutsu. As I've said before, the only one stupid enough to get caught was Naruto. Gai is not the same. He's much to faster. Itachi won't have time to point fingers at him.

What? He won't have time to point a finger? lol
That's about half a second.

[9TailedBijuu]

And why do people assume that Gai will be caught in that crow genjutsu. As I've said before, the only one stupid enough to get caught was Naruto. Gai is not the same. He's much to faster. Itachi won't have time to point fingers at him.

You make it sound like Itachi will be beaten before he could even move a finger..

[rush rush]

He did not mean that!

[MinatoNamikaze]

No. 8 gate Gai is stronger than anyone.. he's Hokage level. But that's beside the point.

Do you think the Mangekyuo sharingan abilities are not Hookage level. At least Sasuno is minimum.


You've got real fine logic here.
Anyways, give me PROOF that Itachi cant fight while casting genjutsu on a person. And finish off? Are you kidding me? Itachi can barely move. And that link is of after the genjutsu was already released. That is not even valid.

2 reasons your wrong. Itahci is a stationary fighter. When have you ever seen him jumping arond the battle ground. He attacks in defence (thats what that pick looks like to me) The second reason your wrong is becasue how did Itachi and kakshi fight the whole time Naruto was in Genjutsu if Itachi cant move and defend himself. Theres no "logic" in your thinking.

Whatever the reasons, Itachi failed to see the seals. This is an ideal hypothetical situation, so, in everyone of Itachi's fights he was not trying to kill anyone, but that doesn't mean we can start giving him "intention" advantages. We have to take what's there in those fights as fact.

Did you happen to miss the huge ass fireabll blocking his view at all. I dont know about you but i definetly didnt see anyhting on the other side of that thing.:D

You are clearly overrating Itachi's abilities. He can't take care of Kakashi while holding Gai in genjutsu and take care of the dogs. In actuality, there is no proof that Itachi can fight while he has put another person in genjutsu.

Theres no proof he cant. I guess we have to assume everyone else in the Naruto universe cant fight while there in genjutsu either? That is just to stupid to even concieve.

Read this:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/06/
Acc. to your theory, this is useless. But fact is that it is NOT. Chiyo had fought Uchihas, she definitely knew what she was talking about. This strategy only and only fails against Tsukyomi. And Gai and Kakashi are not getting caught in that. Against regular genjutsu this startegy works fairly well and two of the strongest jonin of Konoha in Gai and Kakashi WILL make it work.

Again, Itachi wouldnt let the second person free the first person from genjutsu. He would attack them both if he tried so it doesnt matter. Itachi took out an entire clan of top jonin who had even better sharingan than Kakashi. If Itachi can beat 80 or however many Jonin were in the Uchiha clan, then why couldnt he beat 2 fairly strong jonin with no bloodline limits?

You are arguing with a strategy that the manga proves true. It is successful under any circumstance against any real-time genjutsu.

Show us Mangas proof


No. That is your assumption... that they were 'retreating'.
There is no proof that Itachi is able to "fight" whilst casting genjutsu on a person.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/14/
Here, he has not even moved an inch.

Im giving you the exact same reasoning I gave you before:

2 reasons your wrong. Itahci is a stationary fighter. When have you ever seen him jumping arond the battle ground. He attacks in defence (thats what that pick looks like to me) The second reason your wrong is becasue how did Itachi and kakshi fight the whole time Naruto was in Genjutsu if Itachi cant move and defend himself. Theres no "logic" in your thinking.
His speed of seal formation is fast. But he ain't physically fast. No he is not. Both Gai and Kakashi are faster than him. And the first incident that you mention... although Kakashi was not able to keep up back then, Itachi only got the Mizu Bunshin, after that Kurenei behaved really stupidly, Kakashi had to jump in to save her.



Far more? Prove it.

And chakra of 2 people > chakra of one.

I dont think he has more chakra than the two combined (I could be wrong) but he definetly has more then each one individually.

And why do people assume that Gai will be caught in that crow genjutsu. As I've said before, the only one stupid enough to get caught was Naruto. Gai is not the same. He's much to faster. Itachi won't have time to point fingers at him.

Gai could get caught becasue he doesnt know about it. He also knows to watch itachis hand to if he does, he gets caught. Thats my only explanation:D

[rush rush]

Is everyone forgeting about Kakashi while Itachi is so occupied with Gai then Kakashi can charge his mangekou and send Itachi to another dimension

[MinatoNamikaze]

Is everyone forgeting about Kakashi while Itachi is so occupied with Gai then Kakashi can charge his mangekou and send Itachi to another dimension

No you see we are saying that Itahci would be fighting Kakshi after he puts Gai into genjutsu which could very likely happen. Besides Kakashi wouldnt be able to use his MS becasue it is WAY to slow to work on itachi.

[rush rush]

yes but the genjutsu does not last that long in the real world right

[MinatoNamikaze]

yes but the genjutsu does not last that long in the real world right

Well I believe regular genjutsu does and thats what we are talking about. Its Tsukiyomi that only last for a second

[rush rush]

Well I believe regular genjutsu does and thats what we are talking about. Its Tsukiyomi that only last for a second
yea that and the crow thing right

[MinatoNamikaze]

yea that and the crow thing right


Oops sorry i ddint say what I wanted to say in my last post. I meant to say regular genjutsu like the crow one goes by in regular time unlike Tsukiyomi which only last a second

My bad:D

[rush rush]

No problem i knew there was something wrong i just did not feel like correcting you

[9TailedBijuu]

Kakashi won't use his Mangekyou against Itachi. If he does use it there will be a very high chance of him beeing cought in Tsukuyomi because when he uses it his vision worsen. The image in his eye starts to bend and spin making it impossible to look at Itachi without looking at his eyes.

[Peinsagod]

really any battle Itachi would have with anyone would end very quickly if he just used susanoo because if he did that no one could hit him and he would have the super sword to destroy them the only reason he died the last time he used it was because 1. he was weak after fighting and
2. he had to use a lot of strength to make sauske think the battle was real and let him win so he had to use a lot more chakra but i guarantee if he used susanoo in the beginning of any fight he would win and only sustain low ammounts of damage from what suasanoo does to the summoner

[Hashirama]

Itachi, of course.

[MinatoNamikaze]

No problem i knew there was something wrong i just did not feel like correcting you

k thanks. but you can feel fere to correct me if something doesnt sound right. I wont take any offence:D

[WhiteFang]

Do you think the Mangekyuo sharingan abilities are not Hookage level. At least Sasuno is minimum.
... Did I ever say they were not?


2 reasons your wrong. Itahci is a stationary fighter. When have you ever seen him jumping arond the battle ground. He attacks in defence (thats what that pick looks like to me) The second reason your wrong is becasue how did Itachi and kakshi fight the whole time Naruto was in Genjutsu if Itachi cant move and defend himself. Theres no "logic" in your thinking.
Maybe you should read my post a little more closely before passing that declaration.
That's my entire point. Itachi and Kakashi did not "fight". There is no logic in the thinking that Itachi can fight while casting genjutsu.
That particular scene is after the genjutsu had already been dispelled by Chiyo and Sakura. Means, Itachi was no longer casting that genjutsu. Whatever "battle" you are assuming happened before that is just assumption. There is absolutely no proof.


Did you happen to miss the huge ass fireabll blocking his view at all. I dont know about you but i definetly didnt see anyhting on the other side of that thing.:D

Again. Whatever the reasons might have been, Itachi was the one who made the decision to use Gokakyuu. It backfired. You call that failure of strategy. And what Kakashi did was exploitation of mistake.

And Kakashi was damn ass fast. And BTW, although you or for that matter anyone else can't see through that smoke, Itachi CAN. He has the sharingan. Kakashi was too fast with the Doton, and on top of that he did a Kage Bunshin which went through the ground (another thing Itachi failed to notice despite his sharingan) and caught him off-guard.


Theres no proof he cant. I guess we have to assume everyone else in the Naruto universe cant fight while there in genjutsu either? That is just to stupid to even concieve.
There is:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/14/
Now, if Itachi could actually move about or fight while casting genjutsu, it would have been much easier for him to just go and get Sasuke right then. It would have been a head start and good advantage. I actually find your notions a little strange when you say that people can fight whilst in genjutsu, because they can't. And neither can the caster fight. Its fairly simple if you look at it logically, casting genjutsu involves controlling the chakra flow to the individuals brain, thus leading to the hallucinations, clearly the caster would need to focus on controlling his opponents chakra while casting the genjutsu. Its quite obvious that it will be extremely difficult for them to be able to fight while doing so, if they are able to fight at all, that is.


Again, Itachi wouldnt let the second person free the first person from genjutsu. He would attack them both if he tried so it doesnt matter.
Itachi can't do anything about it.

Itachi took out an entire clan of top jonin who had even better sharingan than Kakashi.
No they did not have better sharingan than Kakashi. Give me proof. Most Uchihas were not even able to activate sharingan. As Sasuke said, its a rare ability found in some members of the clan. They were not jonins, just the police force.

If Itachi can beat 80 or however many Jonin were in the Uchiha clan, then why couldnt he beat 2 fairly strong jonin with no bloodline limits?
They were not jonins.
He can't beat Gai and Kakashi.
I won't even start on Kakashi's stats because it has no point in this battle.
But I would like to comment on your "bloodline" point. Because that was just uncalled for and useless. One of the strongest ninja's ever, had no bloodlines. Just for examples sake, the 3rd, the 4th, the 2nd, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi's dad etc. etc.

Show us Mangas proof

Gladly.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/06/
Chiyo knows what she is talking about. She has clearly stated a scenario when 2 people are up against a sharingan user. This strategy is fact and it will work. Kakashi and Gai are 2 accomplished ninja, they can apply this.


2 reasons your wrong. Itahci is a stationary fighter. When have you ever seen him jumping arond the battle ground. He attacks in defence (thats what that pick looks like to me)
That scene is from after the genjutsu has already been dispelled. Itachi is back in his normal stance, he ain't busy with that genjutsu anymore.

The second reason your wrong is becasue how did Itachi and kakshi fight the whole time Naruto was in Genjutsu if Itachi cant move and defend himself. Theres no "logic" in your thinking.

They did not fight. And you know what, Kakashi knows that Itachi is a dangerous opponent. He might have considered the possibilty, that if he just intervened while Itachi was casting the genjutsu on Naruto, he too may get caught up in it. So he let Sakura and Chiyo cancel it out first and then immediately made his move to attack, which Itachi dodged, since he was already done with the genjutsu. That's why that particular scene is shown after the genjutsu was dispelled.


I dont think he has more chakra than the two combined (I could be wrong) but he definetly has more then each one individually.

There is no way in hell that he has more chakra than the 2 combined.
He has definitely lesser chakra than Gai.
And as far as Kakashi is concerned, lets see. Itachi gets pretty much drained after 2 Amaterasu's and Susanoo kills him. Kakashi ended up in the hospital after 3 consecutive black-holes. So yeah... they are nearly equals. But Itachi having Uchiha blood, I give him the slight advantage here.

Gai could get caught becasue he doesnt know about it. He also knows to watch itachis hand to if he does, he gets caught. Thats my only explanation:D
Oh no. Gai will know about it. Kakashi's has a tendency to lecture his comrades on the opponents abilities.
Besides, as I've said before, Naruto has been the only one pathetic enough to get caught and creamed in Itachi's regular genjutsu. He and Gai are very very different. Gai is someone who has dedicated his life in learning to fight the sharingan.

Fine then guys.. I'm off. Someone else can take over from me if they wish, but me, Matt and Muffin agree on this. So yeah, I really don't feel the need to justify to too many people. :xd:

[vane]

I just want to add. About everyone saying Itachi will use Susanoo. If Itachi uses Susanoo he slows down as it takes a toll on his body and makes him slower and not as manueverable as he has to lead a giant warrior looking body. That makes Itachi vulnerable to Kakashi's black hole jutsu (which has a high chance of working seeing as how it is 2 on 1 and not just 1 on 1. And the people that say that wouldnt work on him because he has the armor then that makes you literally not to smart (I wont use the stronger term for it). Because anything is weak against a black hole that actually sucks stuff up into another demension. You cant reflect a black hole.

[Hashirama]

Kakashi got owned already by Itachi. and Gai, even if he doesn't look at the Sharingan, he will get mind raped by Genjutsu, just like Naruto did, and I doubt he can cancel Itachi's Genjutsu since he is a Taijutsu type.

[Smiley]

I just want to add. About everyone saying Itachi will use Susanoo. If Itachi uses Susanoo he slows down as it takes a toll on his body and makes him slower and not as manueverable as he has to lead a giant warrior looking body. That makes Itachi vulnerable to Kakashi's black hole jutsu (which has a high chance of working seeing as how it is 2 on 1 and not just 1 on 1. And the people that say that wouldnt work on him because he has the armor then that makes you literally not to smart (I wont use the stronger term for it). Because anything is weak against a black hole that actually sucks stuff up into another demension. You cant reflect a black hole.

No one said that he will use Susano'o(yet).
We haven't gotten to that part yet :)
Itachi's got more stuff than just it.

[MinatoNamikaze]

...Did I ever say they were not?

No but it was implied.


Maybe you should read my post a little more closely before passing that declaration.
That's my entire point. Itachi and Kakashi did not "fight". There is no logic in the thinking that Itachi can fight while casting genjutsu.
That particular scene is after the genjutsu had already been dispelled by Chiyo and Sakura. Means, Itachi was no longer casting that genjutsu. Whatever "battle" you are assuming happened before that is just assumption. There is absolutely no proof.

So basically your saying Kakshi just stood there while Naruto was being tortured by Itahcis genjutsu? Thats really intelligent. It only shows us the battle after the genjutsu becasue we were looking at it from narutos perpective. There is no proof the battle didnt happen either. And actually the proof lies in this link http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/
Notice how as soon as Naruto is released Kakshi is already flying back? That means he was already fighting before Naruto was realesed. There is clearly no logic in your thinking if you assume he cant fight while casting genjutsu.

Again. Whatever the reasons might have been, Itachi was the one who made the decision to use Gokakyuu. It backfired. You call that failure of strategy. And what Kakashi did was exploitation of mistake

Ok whats your point. Kakshi was able to find a way around the Katon, big deal, it makes no difference. He still even with that didnt even hit Itahci with it.

And Kakashi was damn ass fast. And BTW, although you or for that matter anyone else can't see through that smoke, Itachi CAN. He has the sharingan. Kakashi was too fast with the Doton, and on top of that he did a Kage Bunshin which went through the ground (another thing Itachi failed to notice despite his sharingan) and caught him off-guard.

Ok Like I just said, Kakshi found a way around Itachis Katon, big deal, he still didnt even land a hit on itahci, because Itachi was fast enough to see it coming and dodged it and then countered. It makes no difference Kakashi dodged it. Make no mistake, I dont underestimate Kakshi. I actually really like him, but Itachi is just a better shinobi.

There is:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/385/14/
Now, if Itachi could actually move about or fight while casting genjutsu, it would have been much easier for him to just go and get Sasuke right then. It would have been a head start and good advantage. I actually find your notions a little strange when you say that people can fight whilst in genjutsu, because they can't. And neither can the caster fight. Its fairly simple if you look at it logically, casting genjutsu involves controlling the chakra flow to the individuals brain, thus leading to the hallucinations, clearly the caster would need to focus on controlling his opponents chakra while casting the genjutsu. Its quite obvious that it will be extremely difficult for them to be able to fight while doing so, if they are able to fight at all, that is.


First off, Itachi didnt want to kill sasuke so there would be no point in moving to attack him. Secondly, Here is definate proof I just thought of that shows us Itahci can move while using genjutsu. http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/141/15/

It clearly shows Itahci charging at her while she is in genjutsu. When she dispells it he is already almost close enough to strike. Theres your proof.


No they did not have better sharingan than Kakashi. Give me proof. Most Uchihas were not even able to activate sharingan. As Sasuke said, its a rare ability found in some members of the clan. They were not jonins, just the police force.

Almost all of the Police Force are Jonin, they have to be if they are incharge of controling other ninja. Kashi has one sharingan, Uchihas have 2. Kakshis takes chakra to use Uchiha dont. It has also been stated many times in the manga.

They were not jonins.
He can't beat Gai and Kakashi.
I won't even start on Kakashi's stats because it has no point in this battle.
But I would like to comment on your "bloodline" point. Because that was just uncalled for and useless. One of the strongest ninja's ever, had no bloodlines. Just for examples sake, the 3rd, the 4th, the 2nd, Jiraiya, Tsunade, Kakashi's dad etc. etc.

Ok but Kakashi and Gai are nowhere near the level of anyone listed there. the blood line limit is just one huge advantage Itachi had on those two.

Gladly.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/06/
Chiyo knows what she is talking about. She has clearly stated a scenario when 2 people are up against a sharingan user. This strategy is fact and it will work. Kakashi and Gai are 2 accomplished ninja, they can apply this.

She is obviously talking about taking on the sharingan. If you hadnt noticed, Itahci wasnt using his sharingan to cast that genjutsu. She meant that if you are diresctly fighting a sharingan, one person distracts from the front while the other atacks from the sharingans blind spot. It has nothing to do with regular genjutsu.

They did not fight. And you know what, Kakashi knows that Itachi is a dangerous opponent. He might have considered the possibilty, that if he just intervened while Itachi was casting the genjutsu on Naruto, he too may get caught up in it. So he let Sakura and Chiyo cancel it out first and then immediately made his move to attack, which Itachi dodged, since he was already done with the genjutsu. That's why that particular scene is shown after the genjutsu was dispelled.

Ok heres your logic against you. If Itahci cant do anything while casting genjutsu, then why would Kakshi be afraid to atack him if he cant defend himself. There is no logic in your thinking. Why would he have helped dispell the genjutsu himself. and by the way, he was already flying back by the time Naruto was snapped out of genjutsu meaning he was already fighting. It was shown after the genjutsu was dispelled because Kishi was showing us the battle from Narutos point of view.


There is no way in hell that he has more chakra than the 2 combined.
He has definitely lesser chakra than Gai.
And as far as Kakashi is concerned, lets see. Itachi gets pretty much drained after 2 Amaterasu's and Susanoo kills him. Kakashi ended up in the hospital after 3 consecutive black-holes. So yeah... they are nearly equals. But Itachi having Uchiha blood, I give him the slight advantage here.

Sasuno DOESNT kill him, get that through your head. Your right, he doesnt have more chakra than both combined but I would say he is atleast equal to each individually to be able to use 2 amateratsus, tsukiyomi, and a sasuno.

Oh no. Gai will know about it. Kakashi's has a tendency to lecture his comrades on the opponents abilities.
Besides, as I've said before, Naruto has been the only one pathetic enough to get caught and creamed in Itachi's regular genjutsu. He and Gai are very very different. Gai is someone who has dedicated his life in learning to fight the sharingan.

WE ARENT TALKING ABOUT THE SHARINGAN HERE!! It is regular genjutsu and Kakashi wouldnt have known about it becasue he woudlnt have known how Naruto was put in Genjutsu.

Fine then guys.. I'm off. Someone else can take over from me if they wish, but me, Matt and Muffin agree on this. So yeah, I really don't feel the need to justify to too many people. :xd:[/QUOTE]

Ok, thats fine with me. Good debate. Ill give you a rep for that last post:D See you around

[Kyoto]

No but it was implied.




So basically your saying Kakshi just stood there while Naruto was being tortured by Itahcis genjutsu? Thats really intelligent. It only shows us the battle after the genjutsu becasue we were looking at it from narutos perpective. There is no proof the battle didnt happen either. And actually the proof lies in this link http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/
Notice how as soon as Naruto is released Kakshi is already flying back? That means he was already fighting before Naruto was realesed. There is clearly no logic in your thinking if you assume he cant fight while casting genjutsu.

Well he did if you remember kakashi tols naruto to back him up he throw two kunis then ran up and through a punch. furthermore, shadow clone ran right at naruto then after the impact they had there was a weird poof. So what most likely had was kakashi wait for naruto the heard the girl call his name then he jump back by that time they got him out

Ok whats your point. Kakshi was able to find a way around the Katon, big deal, it makes no difference. He still even with that didnt even hit Itahci with it.

Well had kakashi been by his self he would have kill itachi. However he just factor in naruto an allowed him to finish it. That what he does exam the situation from all aspects


Ok Like I just said, Kakshi found a way around Itachis Katon, big deal, he still didnt even land a hit on itahci, because Itachi was fast enough to see it coming and dodged it and then countered. It makes no difference Kakashi dodged it. Make no mistake, I dont underestimate Kakshi. I actually really like him, but Itachi is just a better shinobi.

No he not if sharrigun can tell the different from a shadow clone and the original. And kakashi who by your statement ins't a better shinobi. How was it itachi a better shinobi was fool by kakashi. With simply tactic by kakashi.


First off, Itachi didnt want to kill sasuke so there would be no point in moving to attack him. Secondly, Here is definate proof I just thought of that shows us Itahci can move while using genjutsu. http://http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/141/15/

It clearly shows Itahci charging at her while she is in genjutsu. When she dispells it he is already almost close enough to strike. Theres your proof.

He didn't put her in a genjutsu he reflected it back at her. So he basicly put threw the genjutsu she used on him back at her. If watch clear the genjutsu was the same movement



Almost all of the Police Force are Jonin, they have to be if they are incharge of controling other ninja. Kashi has one sharingan, Uchihas have 2. Kakshis takes chakra to use Uchiha dont. It has also been stated many times in the manga.

sharingan take chakra no matter who the users is that one.

Ok but Kakashi and Gai are nowhere near the level of anyone listed there. the blood line limit is just one huge advantage Itachi had on those two.

that a dumb statement sorry it is.Kakashi was anbu they go on S rank jonin don't what did Gai say anbu on the way what happen after that itachi left wake up.

She is obviously talking about taking on the sharingan. If you hadnt noticed, Itahci wasnt using his sharingan to cast that genjutsu. She meant that if you are diresctly fighting a sharingan, one person distracts from the front while the other atacks from the sharingans blind spot. It has nothing to do with regular genjutsu.

ok

Ok heres your logic against you. If Itahci cant do anything while casting genjutsu, then why would Kakshi be afraid to atack him if he cant defend himself. There is no logic in your thinking. Why would he have helped dispell the genjutsu himself. and by the way, he was already flying back by the time Naruto was snapped out of genjutsu meaning he was already fighting. It was shown after the genjutsu was dispelled because Kishi was showing us the battle from Narutos point of view.




Sasuno DOESNT kill him, get that through your head. Your right, he doesnt have more chakra than both combined but I would say he is atleast equal to each individually to be able to use 2 amateratsus, tsukiyomi, and a sasuno.

Na kakashi has more way more.

WE ARENT TALKING ABOUT THE SHARINGAN HERE!! It is regular genjutsu and Kakashi wouldnt have known about it becasue he woudlnt have known how Naruto was put in Genjutsu.



Ok, thats fine with me. Good debate. Ill give you a rep for that last post:D See you around[/QUOTE]