View Full Version : Itachi vs. Madara (OFFICIAL THREAD)
Butter
07-21-2008, 10:23 PM
:itachi:vs :tobi:
Location: Uchiha hideout.
Distance: 5 meters.
Abilities: As last seen in manga. However, Madara is in his prime. He can summon the Kyuubi. Itachi too is in his prime and has significantly more chakra than in his fight with Sasuke.
Restrictions: None.
Mindset: In character and fighting to kill.
Who wins in this battle of the stalwart Uchihas?
Doctor Octogonapus
07-24-2008, 02:24 AM
Don't spam, mod delete most of his posts.
Don't double post.
Don't triple post.
Don't quadruple post.
Don't quintuple post.
Don't sextuple post.
Mod move thread to manga battledome.
Now then, this all depends on what you mean by Madara.
Madara technically is the person the 1st Hokage fought, although a lot of people refer to Tobi as Madara.
So, simply put, Itachi beats Tobi, but not Madara.
Itachi and Madara are equals, aside from the fact that Madara has EMS.
That's what sets them apart, that's why Madara will win.
Doctor Octogonapus
07-24-2008, 02:29 AM
1, stop spamming
2, Stop Multiple Posting, as you're the only person on this forum who's managed to ever surpass Sextuple posting...
3, Itachi will not beat Madara.
Yeah he got all 11 post from this one thread saying nothing at all other than complete spam. And Matt has a point. It just depends on how you look at it.
Narutoninja
08-04-2008, 01:51 AM
i say it would be a tie unless mardra teams up with the nintaild fox agian
naruwiskers^_^
08-05-2008, 07:33 AM
i think madara would win.
he's got more experience, as he's been living for how many years now??
and itachi himself said he was "invincible and immortal".
narutofan09
08-07-2008, 04:24 AM
wow my other account gets banned for spaming when it wasent even me and that guy spams like a super ass and he dont get banned.:mad:
anyways itachi would lose
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/2194/mybannerglittere5353675tg5.gif[/URL]
MinatoNamikaze
08-10-2008, 01:15 AM
I think it would be close but if Itachi also gained EMS than it would be a cake walk. Either way i say itachi has it.
narutofan09
08-10-2008, 05:32 AM
no way itachi would have no chance.madara has most of itachis moves,and is more skilled.
Doctor Octogonapus
08-10-2008, 09:47 PM
Again, it all depends if you mean Madara, like Madara, or Madara like "Tobi"
If you're referring to Madara as Tobi in this case, Itachi wins hands down.
But if not, Madara clearly wins this just because of his more detailed mastery of the sharingan and arguably the Kyuubi.
Smiley
08-10-2008, 10:30 PM
And how do you suppose Itachi will get to him?
I'm saying both Madara and Tobi win this.
EMS > MS in Madara's case.
And Tobi's time/space jutsu from what we've seen has no flaws.
Besides if Itachi was stronger than Tobi he would've killed him.
Doctor Octogonapus
08-10-2008, 10:35 PM
And how do you suppose Itachi will get to him?
I'm saying both Madara and Tobi win this.
EMS > MS in Madara's case.
And Tobi's time/space jutsu from what we've seen has no flaws.
Besides if Itachi was stronger than Tobi he would've killed him.
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled-1.jpg
Itachi didn't know everything he needed to know yet, meaning as soon as he did, Tobi would've been killed.
That also indicates that EMS is nothing more than it says it is, an everlasting Mangekyo Sharingan.
So you're right, if Itachi was stronger than Tobi he would have killed him, which he intended to do as soon as he knew everything he needed to know.
caleb08
08-10-2008, 10:49 PM
i would have to say itachi because he has obtained mastery of MS and ever since madara's battle with the 1st he has gotten weaker. And I highly doubt Madara can use EMS anymore, so i would have to say Itachi takes this one.
Smiley
08-10-2008, 11:08 PM
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled-1.jpg
Itachi didn't know everything he needed to know yet, meaning as soon as he did, Tobi would've been killed.
That also indicates that EMS is nothing more than it says it is, an everlasting Mangekyo Sharingan.
So you're right, if Itachi was stronger than Tobi he would have killed him, which he intended to do as soon as he knew everything he needed to know.
..It also gives user an extra technique.
Okay, ehm, still how does Itachi beat Tobi's time/space jutsu?
Tobi was toying with 8 Leaf ninja, 3 of them jounin level and 5 chuunin.
Even though he isn't at his full power he ain't a joke.
Doctor Octogonapus
08-10-2008, 11:22 PM
..It also gives user an extra technique.
Okay, ehm, still how does Itachi beat Tobi's time/space jutsu?
I don't know and you know that so why're you asking?
It doesn't make that point any less valid.
Itachi was using Tobi and he would've killed him when he was done.
How?
How am I supposed to know that.
All I know is, Itachi would have, therefore he could have.
Smiley
08-10-2008, 11:58 PM
I don't know and you know that so why're you asking?
It doesn't make that point any less valid.
Itachi was using Tobi and he would've killed him when he was done.
How?
How am I supposed to know that.
All I know is, Itachi would have, therefore he could have.
How do you figure that he could have?
By "he kept secrets from Itachi" he was probably referring to whatever his used to avoid Amaterasu(and it was most likely time/space jutsu).
He would have been dead if he hadn't avoided it.
What was he using him for? All he needed him for was to kill the clan.
If he could have killed him he would have, and thus would have prevented him from getting to Sasuke.
MinatoNamikaze
08-11-2008, 12:00 AM
Ok but what if Itachi also had EMS. I say Itachi would take it then becasue he has a complete mastery of the sharingan.
Doctor Octogonapus
08-11-2008, 12:10 AM
How do you figure that he could have?
By "he kept secrets from Itachi" he was probably referring to whatever his used to avoid Amaterasu(and it was most likely time/space jutsu).
He would have been dead if he hadn't avoided it.
Possibly, we have no way of knowing what secrets he was talking about until he shows us the secrets he was referring to in that chapter.
What was he using him for? All he needed him for was to kill the clan.
If he could have killed him he would have, and thus would have prevented him from getting to Sasuke.
We're talking about Tobi not Madara.
Tobi didn't kill the clan.
MinatoNamikaze
08-11-2008, 12:12 AM
Possibly, we have no way of knowing what secrets he was talking about until he shows us the secrets he was referring to in that chapter.
Agreed
The Joker
08-11-2008, 12:26 AM
I believe Madara would own itachi, however, i would like itachi to win
Smiley
08-11-2008, 12:30 AM
Possibly, we have no way of knowing what secrets he was talking about until he shows us the secrets he was referring to in that chapter.
Right after almost being killed by Amaterasu, Tobi makes a comment that had he not kept "secrets" from Itachi he would have been dead.
Obviously, he's referring to the secret behind the time/space jutsu.
Had Itachi known the secret, Amaterasu would have killed Tobi.
We're talking about Tobi not Madara.
Tobi didn't kill the clan.
Whatever, I'm not gonna argue against this now.
Still, what did Itachi use Tobi for?
He wanted him DEAD.
He knew he was going to die in the battle with Sasuke.
If he was so much afraid that Tobi would get to Sasuke after his death, he would have killed him had he been able to.
(In case he needed him for something after his death, Itachi wouldn't have implanted Amaterasu in Sasuke).
Doctor Octogonapus
08-11-2008, 12:31 AM
Right after almost being killed by Amaterasu, Tobi makes a comment that had he not kept "secrets" from Itachi he would have been dead.
Obviously, he's referring to the secret behind the time/space jutsu.
Had Itachi known the secret, Amaterasu would have killed Tobi.
Now that I think about that makes sense.
Thanks for clearing that up, srry for the trouble.
Blaze The Poke Master
08-11-2008, 12:39 AM
madara
MinatoNamikaze
08-11-2008, 01:23 AM
I still say itahci
Evan Bourne
09-22-2008, 11:53 PM
okay ITachi has tsukayomi amaretsu and themangekyou sharingan so i think that itachi will ein
MinatoNamikaze
09-23-2008, 12:34 AM
Impossible to say. We havent seen madara fight at all. I think Itachi is a better shinobi but I cant say that for a fact.
I have to side with Itachi on this if he new what Madara was hideing from him. Madara himself already said he took counter measures against Itachi and had Itachi learned of those secrets he would have been dead by now. So Itachi as of right now until we learn what Madara can do and judge him that way instead of useing words of mouth alone.
Suicide
09-28-2008, 03:19 AM
i say itachi because he will jusy do tsukayomi
Bushido Brown
09-28-2008, 03:30 AM
Itachi already said he couldnt be Marada and if he could he would have done it already
ninetailedfox4432
09-29-2008, 01:07 AM
ya, itachi said he couldn't beat the "OLD" madara but that he could surpass him with sasuke's eyes
Cross Marian
09-29-2008, 01:53 AM
Madara seems to have an extraordinary reputation.
I guess I'll go with Madara for now.
Butter
09-29-2008, 02:31 AM
o wow people actually voted for itachi
madara would win hands down.madara is to strong for itachi.if he wasnt itachi would have killed him
Evan Bourne
09-29-2008, 03:22 AM
well if tsukayomi dosent work he will do amaretsu and finish him off
FmAkilla
10-02-2008, 11:42 PM
Madara because he is the leader of the Uchiha clan
Butter
10-02-2008, 11:58 PM
well if tsukayomi dosent work he will do amaretsu and finish him off
Yes beut u have to remember itachi isnt as strong as madara
MinatoNamikaze
10-03-2008, 12:11 AM
Its impossible to say becasue we have never seen madara figth so everything is speculation
Yes beut u have to remember itachi isnt as strong as madara
Yes and you have to remember that Madara is over 100 years old. That he may also be either weaker or stronger than he was when he fought the 1st. He currently doesnt have EMS so I think we can say he is weaker because of that. So its only an assumption at this point to say that Madara is stronger than Itachi.
SpaceRazorz
10-03-2008, 04:31 PM
This is obvious. Madara wins. If Itachi was stronger than him, he would've killed him by now. Madara can even order Pein around, and we know how strong Pein is. It's no joke. Madara's eternal Mangekyou Sharingan > Itachi's half-blind Mangekyou Sharingan. He's also by far the fastest Naruto character so far. He was able to dodge Amaterasu.
This is obvious. Madara wins. If Itachi was stronger than him, he would've killed him by now. Madara can even order Pein around, and we know how strong Pein is. It's no joke. Madara's eternal Mangekyou Sharingan > Itachi's half-blind Mangekyou Sharingan. He's also by far the fastest Naruto character so far. He was able to dodge Amaterasu.
Just to fill you in because you didnt read my previous post Madara doesnt have EMS until proven otherwise. He has basically came out and said he doesnt have it anymore.
Proof is on chapter 364 pages 16 through 18.
D.I.Y Death
10-03-2008, 07:18 PM
For now I'll go with Itachi since we KNOW NOTHING about Mandara's ems/ms. But once we do know more I guarantee he will be much more powerful.
DeathAngel
10-05-2008, 01:10 AM
Just to fill you in because you didnt read my previous post Madara doesnt have EMS until proven otherwise. He has basically came out and said he doesnt have it anymore.
Proof is on chapter 364 pages 16 through 18.That doesn't proof anything. He did not say he lost his EMS.
Amaterasu is useless against Madara as he can put it out. Itachi's MS is powerful, but Madara has a much more powerful EMS(though we don't know its capabilities). So I'd say Madara wins.
Butter
10-05-2008, 01:11 AM
Yes and you have to remember that Madara is over 100 years old. That he may also be either weaker or stronger than he was when he fought the 1st. He currently doesnt have EMS so I think we can say he is weaker because of that. So its only an assumption at this point to say that Madara is stronger than Itachi.
^agreed
repped for greatly put
That doesn't proof anything. He did not say he lost his EMS.
Amaterasu is useless against Madara as he can put it out. Itachi's MS is powerful, but Madara has a much more powerful EMS(though we don't know its capabilities). So I'd say Madara wins.
Did you read the chapter. Madara said he wants to make things the way they should be. His power (the EMS) Madara Uchiha's power (which was the EMS that no one else had). So mister that proves nothing, it proves Madara either no longer has EMS or his EMS is damaged (until proven otherwise in the manga). So go and try to correct someone else.
MinatoNamikaze
10-05-2008, 02:14 AM
For now I'll go with Itachi since we KNOW NOTHING about Mandara's ems/ms. But once we do know more I guarantee he will be much more powerful.
Ya madara will probably be stronger for many reasons if all is proven.
1. he has/had EMS
2. hes had over 100 years of training (Itahci has about 7)
3. Itachi has a disease
But other than that becasue we have no info its impossible to tell
Evan Bourne
10-05-2008, 03:08 AM
what disease does itachi have
Ya madara will probably be stronger for many reasons if all is proven.
1. he has/had EMS
2. hes had over 100 years of training (Itahci has about 7)
3. Itachi has a disease
But other than that becasue we have no info its impossible to tell
Oh my gosh wow. This is the first time I have ever heard you use Itachi's disease against himself. I think this is just great :lmao:
Evan Bourne
10-05-2008, 03:31 AM
so what don't make fun of him okay dude.
^^Also dont spam. That is a complete waste of a post. And no one is making fun of anyone. Now if you have something to post regarding this battle that would be fine.
Oh but not Im spamming so I guess I will post a link.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/16/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/17/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/364/18/
Evan Bourne
10-05-2008, 03:41 AM
fine itachi will use the unavoidable amaretsu and beat madara
Hunter-nin
10-05-2008, 10:03 AM
:haku: Two points to consider here:
1) Madara is the possessor of the most powerful and advanced form of Sharingan possible. He can manipulate Space and Time. He was on par with one of the strongest men to have lead Konoha, the 1st Hokage, and even has the power to summon Kyuubi himself, and bend him to his will! This guy is extremely dangerous!
2) If Itachi wished to protect both his brother and the village from Madara, and was strong enough to take on Madara and win, then he would have done so. The fact that he didn't suggests that Itachi wasn't strong enough to take on Madara.
It's clear to me that Madara would win.
Madara is the possessor of the most powerful and advanced form of Sharingan possible.
Again read my previous posts because at this point is molre clear that Madara's EMS is either not there or is damaged.
He can manipulate Space and Time.
One of the only things he has shown he can do so far.
He was on par with one of the strongest men to have lead Konoha, the 1st Hokage,
Yeah like 80 to 100 years ago. Being over 100 doesnt mean you have the strength you had when you were roughly 20.
and even has the power to summon Kyuubi himself, and bend him to his will!
Yeah and since Kyuubi is inside Naruto there is no summoning the Kyuubi. So point is pointless.
This guy is extremely dangerous!
Yeah a 100 and some odd year old man is dangerous and no one knows what he can do. Yeah that makes him dangerous. I just love that. A man that was strong over 100 years ago and hasnt shown any kind of techniques and everyone just thinks he is like a god :lmao:
If Itachi wished to protect both his brother and the village from Madara, and was strong enough to take on Madara and win, then he would have done so.
Maybe you forgot that Itachi looked for Madara to help destroy a part of that village he was so trying to protect. He was more trying to protect his brother from Madara. It isnt like Itachi could just come up to Sasuke and be like dont trust Madara, he is a lyer and will make you a bad guy.
The fact that he didn't suggests that Itachi wasn't strong enough to take on Madara.
Not really its more like a stale mate between the 2. Itachi has show his full capabilities and Madara hasnt, So in a sense Itachi wins there. Madara said he kept secrets from Itachi or else he would be dead (hinting that Itachi would have already killed Madara.
But by default Itachi wins for now. We know nothing of Madara other than the fact that his EMS is either gone or damaged, in which case would make him weaker than he use to be.
LaserMonkey
10-05-2008, 10:24 PM
what disease does itachi have
Disease???
Itachi is gonna go blind because he has the MS. Well, thats a theory.
Well, i am gonna have to go with Madara on this one. Itachi is smart, Technical, and Powerful. Madara is immortal, even tho he is a half of a person(As Matt stated) Madara is still able to fight. We don't even know what Madara's MS can do to people. Madara's MS > Itachi's MS. Itachi's end, was a tragedy to see him dead. Since Itachi is dead, Madara wins. Next fight will be Sasuke vs. Madara. Plus, Kishi only revealed a few of Madara's techniques. So you can't really decide on this.
EDIT: Plus, Madara's Chakara amount. It's probably the highest amount, effect is that he is IMMORTAL.
Do you guys not read the manga?
Stop trying to make up complicated theories.
Itachi clearly said once he obtains sasuke's eye he will surpass madara.
LaserMonkey
10-05-2008, 10:36 PM
Do you guys not read the manga?
Stop trying to make up complicated theories.
Itachi clearly said once he obtains sasuke's eye he will surpass madara.
Isn't it the other way around?
'Sasuke obtains Itachi's eyes, he will surpass Madara'
Correct me if i am wrong.
@Soul: And stop acting like you know it all. Everyone has heard Itachi say that, and everyone has heard Madara say that Itachi would have killed him by now if not for secrets. And he means pass up Madara's old EMS, not necissarily in power. And you cant say Madara would win with no techniques because we havnt seen any and we cant just start saying he knows techniques that we dont know if he has or not. So here technically Itachi wins by default because Madara hasnt shown what he is capable of.
LaserMonkey
10-05-2008, 10:39 PM
@Soul: And stop acting like you know it all. He means pass up Madara's old EMS, not necissarily in power. And you cant say Madara would win with no techniques because we havnt seen any and we cant just start saying he knows techniques that we dont know if he has or not. So here technically Itachi wins by default because Madara hasnt shown what he is capable of.
Technically thats what i meant, guessing i didn't explain it right.
As i said "You can't really decide on this" Because Kishi hasn't even revealed all of Madara's techniques.
Smiley
10-05-2008, 10:43 PM
Madara would win because of the T/S jutsu.
Teleport behind and kunai in the throat.
Oh wow. You actually think Itachi would fall for that. But using things that you have used in defense for Itachi, wouldnt Itachi see that coming?
But whatever. Im not going to go into to much detail with it here.
But time/space isnt going to win this. You have to have something that goes with it and Madara has nothing that he has show yet so no win for Madara.
@Soul: And stop acting like you know it all. Everyone has heard Itachi say that, and everyone has heard Madara say that Itachi would have killed him by now if not for secrets. And he means pass up Madara's old EMS, not necissarily in power. And you cant say Madara would win with no techniques because we havnt seen any and we cant just start saying he knows techniques that we dont know if he has or not. So here technically Itachi wins by default because Madara hasnt shown what he is capable of.
Stop disagreeing with the manga.
So you mean to tell me sasuke can beat madara? Because if sasuke can stand a chance against him, i'm pretty sure madara can. For god sake, madara is the akatsuki leader. It would be stupid if kishimoto left him with no powerful techniques. Kishimoto isn't stupid, i'm sure madara has a lot of powerful techniques. I mean, jiraiya can beat itachi. Jiraiya could have beaten the pein if he knew his secrets earlier in time. Pein can beat itachi. Madara can beat pein. If itachi can't beat pein, he can't beat madara. Madara is the leader, so it makes sense for him to be the most powerfull. it would be fucked up if he was stronger than madara, considering the fact that he's ill and could barely beat sasuke.
Smiley
10-05-2008, 10:50 PM
Oh wow. You actually think Itachi would fall for that. But using things that you have used in defense for Itachi, wouldnt Itachi see that coming?
He wouldn't, hence Madara's T/S requires no hand seals and Sharingan can't keep up with the speed of teleporting.
And if we take Itachi's statement about Madara having MS correct, Madara has everything Itachi does.
I don't see Itachi winning this.
And there's also the fact he would have killed him had he been able to when he was alive.
X-Drake
10-05-2008, 10:58 PM
And if we take Itachi's statement about Madara having MS correct, Madara has everything Itachi does.
Since when do all ms have the same jutsus. Why did Itachi seal amatrasu if sasuke would be getting it anyways.
So you mean to tell me sasuke can beat madara?
Not in a sense. But as far as one not being able to use a technique here in the battledone because we dont know what he can do then yes, for now Sasuke can.
For god sake, madara is the akatsuki leader. It would be stupid if kishimoto left him with no powerful techniques. Kishimoto isn't stupid
Of course it would be. But heres the question, what can he do? Oh wow he'll teleport? Then he might just, wait he teleported again. I think he is about to...Wait he just teleported again. Not much of a fight.
i'm sure madara has a lot of powerful techniques.
Ok name one of these hella powerful techniques that he has then. Because if you cant then you dont need to say that Madara can win because that means you are just going with the fact that Madara once had EMS (my earlier post).
. I mean, jiraiya can beat itachi.
Yes
Jiraiya could have beaten the pein if he knew his secrets earlier in time.
Yes in which case if they fought again Jiraiya would then have won.
Pein can beat itachi.
Yes again
Madara can beat pein.
No. Or not until we see what Madara is capable of. And even still thats only of Madara knows Peins secret (which he doesnt until proven otherwise)
If itachi can't beat pein, he can't beat madara.
Your first point was invalid in this situation so this point is invalid also.
Madara is the leader, so it makes sense for him to be the most powerfull.
That or it makes sense for him to be the smartest. In which we know he is smart. But we dont know exactly how powerful he is.
it would be fucked up if he was stronger than madara, considering the fact that he's ill and could barely beat sasuke.
Another invalid point. Itachi could have killed Sasuke on a few occasions earlier in the fight. Itachi wanted to die. Yes Itachi went all out as far as using all of his techniques, but he couls have won the fight way earlier. So it does make sense that Itachi can beat him (until proven otherwise in the manga).
He wouldn't, hence Madara's T/S requires no hand seals and Sharingan can't keep up with the speed of teleporting.
Its just funny to hear you say that he couldnt. Because at a point like this you would bring up that Itachi would notice Madara's chakra once it appears and tries to attack then Itachi would counter accordingly. But like I said whatever. just funny to hear you say that :lmao:
And if we take Itachi's statement about Madara having MS correct, Madara has everything Itachi does.
And which statement is this. Because so far everyone has different techniques that come with their MS (with the exception that Itachi implanted Amaterasu into Sasuke)
I don't see Itachi winning this.
And there's also the fact he would have killed him had he been able to when he was alive.
Well when you can come up with a game winning move that Madara can win then you have an arguement. But until then the Madara teleporting and cutting a throat isnt going to finish this.
@X-Drake: Exactly my point.
X-Drake
10-05-2008, 11:21 PM
This is like saying that a character yet to come can beat kakashi. Untill we know what madara can be capable of we cannot judge him. We have seen all Itachi's ms jutsus and a few of his normal jutsus.
Madara is tobi and we have not seen any of his ms jutsus so we cannot say how powerfull he is. Yes he can use T/S jutsus but what can he do after, if it was kazaku with the hardened body a kunai cannot harm him.
Yes Madara could appear right behind him but if susano sets the sheilds to cover itachi's body as it has no shape. Then madara cannot harm him.
Evan Bourne
10-05-2008, 11:47 PM
well i guess madara is strong but itachi could be stronger
Smiley
10-05-2008, 11:55 PM
Since when do all ms have the same jutsus.
Since the databook said so. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/edufe7.gif
Why did Itachi seal amatrasu if sasuke would be getting it anyways.
Because he implanted it so it would activate at the sight of Madara's Sharingan, to protect Sasuke.
And I believe that had Sasuke not met Madara and learned the secret about Itachi he wouldn't have gotten MS in first place, hence he wouldn't have considered Itachi a close person.
Its just funny to hear you say that he couldnt. Because at a point like this you would bring up that Itachi would notice Madara's chakra once it appears and tries to attack then Itachi would counter accordingly.
How would he notice his chakra, if he teleports behind him?
One moment he is standing before him, the other he is behind him with kunai in his hand.
X-Drake
10-06-2008, 12:00 AM
Since the databook said so. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/edufe7.gif
Wrong i read the databook. Itachi said those were the three jutsu to awaken in HIS EYES on that faithful day.
Show me where it says all ms jutsus are the same as kakashi doesn't have them. Naruto said amatarusu was itachi's jutsus. ect.
Because he implanted it so it would activate at the sight of Madara's Sharingan, to protect Sasuke.
And I believe that had Sasuke not met Madara and learned the secret about Itachi he wouldn't have gotten MS in first place, hence he wouldn't have considered Itachi a close person. Wrong itachi used a Fuuinjutsu. A sealing jutsu to seal amatarusu in sasuke to activate on madara. Not to help him activate the ms. Itachi never wanted that. Madara did so he made sasuke have feeling of loss.
How would he notice his chakra, if he teleports behind him?
One moment he is standing before him, the other he is behind him with kunai in his hand.
Your taking this a little more serious than I had pointed. I was rambling more or less about how funny it is that Itachi can do something in one fight but not in another.
Also Madara's T/S technique isnt instan anyways.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/02/
That doesnt look all that instant to me. It seems like it gives Itachi time to react and use a technique.
D.I.Y Death
10-06-2008, 04:04 AM
Since the databook said so. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/edufe7.gif
The databook did not say that specifically. Also its implied that this isn't true since kakashi's ms has a different tech than Itachi's or (so far) Sauske's. (I don't include Mandara since we haven't seen anything from him yet)
It also doesn't help that Sauske and Itachi are related giving them a blood connection as well as Itachi giving Amaertsu to Sauske. This implies that Amaretsu is a unique ability or Itachi wouldn't have bothered to pass it on since giving someone something they already have would be pointless.
Because he implanted it so it would activate at the sight of Madara's Sharingan, to protect Sasuke.
And I believe that had Sasuke not met Madara and learned the secret about Itachi he wouldn't have gotten MS in first place, hence he wouldn't have considered Itachi a close person.
The real question is could Sauske have Amaertsu and then have it given to him? This relates to the topic above.
How would he notice his chakra, if he teleports behind him?
One moment he is standing before him, the other he is behind him with kunai in his hand.
He probably couldn't. That's too fast for Itachi to react to. However Itachi could react to the moment Mandara appeared behind him. No guarantees that would be enough though.
In any case we don't know enough about Mandara to make a call on Mandara vs Itachi since all we have seen Mandara do is teleport and avoid attacks.
Smiley
10-06-2008, 09:46 AM
Wrong i read the databook. Itachi said those were the three jutsu to awaken in HIS EYES on that faithful day.
Show me where it says all ms jutsus are the same as kakashi doesn't have them. Naruto said amatarusu was itachi's jutsus. ect.
Kakashi is for some reason an exception.
Here's (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=18614734&postcount=64) a link.
Important part:
""Amaterasu", representing "the material world and light" and "Tsukuyomi", symbolizing "the spiritual world and darkness", are two jutsu that can only be used by the ones who awakened the "Mangekyou Sharingan", the almighty eyes that can see through anything. The power of the violent god resides in the ones who are able control both jutsu: that is Susanoo
Wrong itachi used a Fuuinjutsu.
A sealing jutsu to seal amatarusu in sasuke to activate on madara
. Not to help him activate the ms. Itachi never wanted that. Madara did so he made sasuke have feeling of loss.
That's exactly my point. He implanted Amaterasu in his eye, so Sasuke would never meet Madara, never learn truth about Itachi and never activate his MS.
The real question is could Sauske have Amaertsu and then have it given to him? This relates to the topic above.
He didn't have MS until he learned truth about Itachi.
Until that point he didn't consider him a close person.
So Itachi implanted Amaterasu in his eye to make sure he never finds out truth.
Doctor Octogonapus
10-06-2008, 09:37 PM
Since the databook said so. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/edufe7.gif
Well since we're using because I said so logic here's a little something.
This is the manga section.
If it's not an official manga page from the official series, then it will not be used as proof here.
The manga is the only proof in the manga section.
And just to clarify, is this Madara vs. Itachi as in Madara vs. Itachi or Tobi vs. Itachi
D.I.Y Death
10-06-2008, 10:18 PM
Well since we're using because I said so logic here's a little something.
This is the manga section.
If it's not an official manga page from the official series, then it will not be used as proof here.
The manga is the only proof in the manga section.
And just to clarify, is this Madara vs. Itachi as in Madara vs. Itachi or Tobi vs. Itachi
They are the same. We don't know what the hell is with Tobi/Mandara because he seems to have very distinct and different personalities but their abilities are the same since it is one body. Its like saying Mandara with his serious attitude or Mandara with his silly antics
Doctor Octogonapus
10-06-2008, 10:22 PM
They are the same. We don't know what the hell is with Tobi/Mandara because he seems to have very distinct and different personalities but their abilities are the same since it is one body. Its like saying Mandara with his serious attitude or Mandara with his silly antics
Madara*
Actually I needed to know because there's already a Tobi vs. Itachi and a Madara vs. Itachi, I need to know which to merge it with.
Smiley
10-06-2008, 11:31 PM
Well since we're using because I said so logic here's a little something.
No, it's the "DB said so" logic x_x
This is the manga section.
If it's not an official manga page from the official series, then it will not be used as proof here.
The manga is the only proof in the manga section.
Well that's like saying that things said in the interview can't be considered as canon, hence they weren't said in the manga.
Everything in the Databook is canon, hence it's written by Kishimoto's staff and has an approval from him.
Doctor Octogonapus
10-06-2008, 11:34 PM
Well that's like saying that things said in the interview can't be considered as canon, hence they weren't said in the manga.
Everything in the Databook is canon, hence it's written by Kishimoto's staff and has an approval from him.
And we learned our lesson from that haven't we?
It wasn't canon.
Like I've said many times, he can say whatever he damn well pleases but it's proven fact unless it's in the manga.
That's the series.
Not the databook.
The databook is related to the series, but it isn't the series.
That's like saying the bloopers on a sitcom are part of the series.
Manga is the only proof here.
It's the only proof.
the databook can be used as proof in every other section, but in the manga section, only manga is regarded as proof.
amathews1998
10-06-2008, 11:34 PM
Madara because he has a scaret shingan and a powerful one too....
he's is the 3rd best in the uchia clan itacih is in 5th
Doctor Octogonapus
10-06-2008, 11:35 PM
Who's numbers 1, 2 and 4?
Smiley
10-06-2008, 11:44 PM
And we learned our lesson from that haven't we?
It wasn't canon.
If you're referring to the fake interview, it was fake.
Of course it wasn't canon.
Like I've said many times, he can say whatever he damn well pleases but it's proven fact unless it's in the manga.
That's the series.
Not the databook.
The databook is related to the series, but it isn't the series.
That's like saying the bloopers on a sitcom are part of the series.
Manga is the only proof here.
It's the only proof.
the databook can be used as proof in every other section, but in the manga section, only manga is regarded as proof
I don't really get that logic.
Kishimoto, the writter and creator of the Narutoverse says something regarding the series he made and it isn't considered as canon?
How come?
Doctor Octogonapus
10-06-2008, 11:47 PM
If you're referring to the fake interview, it was fake.
Of course it wasn't canon.
Exactly, thus a wake up call for us.
We shouldn't believe anything said until proven to be correct.
I don't really get that logic.
It's not in the manga yet you believe it to be true with no proof in the actual story.
That's the logic I don't get.
Kishimoto, the writter and creator of the Narutoverse says something regarding the series he made and it isn't considered as canon?
It's canon, it's just not true.
He has to prove it to be true.
You seem to think that everything that comes out of his mouth is immediately true.
What if it never happens.
Is it true then?
There's no proof to back it up, therefore it couldn't possibly be true, because proof is all we have, or in this case don't have.
How come?
Because there are no spoilers and everyone here for the most part are the mature bunch of debaters.
This isn't a new rule, don't act so surprised, this has been talked about long before this databook came out.
Smiley
10-06-2008, 11:59 PM
Exactly, thus a wake up call for us.
We shouldn't believe anything said until proven to be correct.
And Kishimoto wouldn't have said something that isn't correct.
He doesn't have to prove it.
He most likely wasn't writting the databooks hastily during the lunch break.
It prolly took months and months of thinking and planning for him and his staff to complete it.
Because there are no spoilers and everyone here for the most part are the mature bunch of debaters.
This isn't a new rule, don't act so surprised, this has been talked about long before this databook came out.
You're the first guy that says that the Databook stuff aren't true.
Except the statistics, which we figured aren't meant to be compared.
Other than that, everything from the DB is canon material.
Doctor Octogonapus
10-07-2008, 12:04 AM
And Kishimoto wouldn't have said something that isn't correct.
He doesn't have to prove it.
:facepalm:
Look, what do you read?
Naruto, or Naruto The Official Databook.
Which is the series?
Naruto, or Naruto The Official Databook.
You're the first guy that says that the Databook stuff aren't true.
Except the statistics, which we figured aren't meant to be compared.
1, I'm also the first guy to demand proof of the databook being true. You're a good debater, you must have proof of what you're saying is true, you're not the type to say things without proof. So I'll expect manga pages proving what you said to be true.
2, You don't get to pick and choose which parts you believe and which you don't. If you believe that the databook is part of the series, then you believe all of it, or you believe none of it, there is no in between.
Other than that, everything from the DB is canon material.
Canon, yes.
Proven and to be used as proof, no.
You can use it in any other section aside from the manga battledome and manga bookstore.
You want permission to, you send Jay or Lina to me, and you send Muffin to me.
The bookstore is theirs and this section is ours.
You want us to revoke our rule, you need to tell us, not do as you please.
D.I.Y Death
10-07-2008, 12:14 AM
Madara*
Actually I needed to know because there's already a Tobi vs. Itachi and a Madara vs. Itachi, I need to know which to merge it with.
Ah that explains a lot. Sometimes when I think you're just being a dick you're really not. Sorry my fault for being a douche.
X-Drake
10-07-2008, 12:15 AM
1, I'm also the first guy to demand proof of the databook being true.
Being on the shounen jumps japanese site is proof enough.
wanna buy it here
http://books.shueisha.co.jp/CGI/search/syousai_put.cgi?isbn_cd=978-4-08-874247-2&mode=1
On the thread i would say madara 90%
D.I.Y Death
10-07-2008, 12:17 AM
Being on the shounen jumps japanese site is proof enough.
wanna buy it here
http://books.shueisha.co.jp/CGI/search/syousai_put.cgi?isbn_cd=978-4-08-874247-2&mode=1
On the thread i would say madara 90%
To be fair some of that databook looks like a horrible hack job. Its like Kishi made it for money rather than to fill in the blanks for the fans. People screamed long and hard for more information and they were thrown some scraps from the table to silence them.
Ah that explains a lot. Sometimes when I think you're just being a dick you're really not. Sorry my fault for being a douche.
Well, your the only dick around here. You said so yourself
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not an elitist I'm an opinionated dick who doesn't like children.
sorry my fault for being so concerned.
X-Drake
10-07-2008, 12:21 AM
To be fair some of that databook looks like a horrible hack job. Its like Kishi made it for money rather than to fill in the blanks for the fans. People screamed long and hard for more information and they were thrown some scraps from the table to silence them.
No everything in the book was just. Hell people been using info from the first and second databook before. Nearly all of leafninja is from the databook and manga.
The stats are rough. Itachi is around the same level as jiraya ect
Tell me what parts was crap.
Zepzune
10-07-2008, 12:29 AM
Madara hands down! He has everything that Itachi has, plus more. And, he also has more anger and hatred. He's brutal in every way, i mean, when he went blind, he killed his comrads to get the sharingan back.
I say Madara.
X-Drake
10-07-2008, 12:31 AM
Madara hands down! He has everything that Itachi has, plus more. And, he also has more anger and hatred. He's brutal in every way, i mean, when he went blind, he killed his comrads to get the sharingan back.
I say Madara.
How in the hell does madara have everything itachi has?
All ms jutsus are different ok.
Doctor Octogonapus
10-07-2008, 12:49 AM
Ah that explains a lot. Sometimes when I think you're just being a dick you're really not. Sorry my fault for being a douche.
It's cool xDD.
Being on the shounen jumps japanese site is proof enough.
wanna buy it here
http://books.shueisha.co.jp/CGI/search/syousai_put.cgi?isbn_cd=978-4-08-874247-2&mode=1
You've yet to provide me any proof in the manga.
That doesn't look good for your side.
To be fair some of that databook looks like a horrible hack job. Its like Kishi made it for money rather than to fill in the blanks for the fans. People screamed long and hard for more information and they were thrown some scraps from the table to silence them.
Exactly right.
Most likely proposed by his "people" in order to make more money.
No everything in the book was just. Hell people been using info from the first and second databook before. Nearly all of leafninja is from the databook and manga.
Yet there are things in the databook that aren't in the manga, as well as things that contradict things shown in the manga.
The stats are rough. Itachi is around the same level as jiraya ect
The states are incorrect.
Plain and simple.
Tell me what parts was crap.
The stats.
Everything.
If this was all true it would be in the manga.
I'm not debating this with you.
You use manga as the only proof in this section.
No wiggle room.
You have a problem with that you take it up with Muffin.
You have a problem with that in the bookstore, you take it up with Lina and Jay and tell them to take it up with me.
How in the hell does madara have everything itachi has?
The databook says so.
All ms jutsus are different ok.
Not according to your precious databook.
Smiley
10-07-2008, 12:49 AM
:facepalm:
.....
2, You don't get to pick and choose which parts you believe and which you don't. If you believe that the databook is part of the series, then you believe all of it, or you believe none of it, there is no in between.
No, the thing about stats it, they're true, but aren't meant to be compared between the characters.
Canon, yes.
Proven and to be used as proof, no.
Canon but cannot be used as proof?
Manga, interviews, databooks.. All are sources of canon information.
What is the difference? :blink:
Where does it specifically say that only manga stuff can be used in battledome?
Doctor Octogonapus
10-07-2008, 12:54 AM
No, the thing about stats it, they're true, but aren't meant to be compared between the characters.
@Vane: Or not...
@Smiley: Is there proof in the manga that they're true?
Manga, interviews, databooks.. All are sources of canon information.
What is the difference? :blink:
Where does it specifically say that only manga stuff can be used in battledome?
It was one of the unwritten rules of the battledome and manga sections, this was a LOOOONG time ago, during your time so I expected you to remember this.
It was because people were using the previous databooks in debates in the manga sections.
So we(by we I mean the current staff of Tac, Akatsuki, Mika, Jay, and Ham) created a rule saying that only manga can be used as proof in the manga sections.
It should've been written down, it really should've, and I actually added it to the rules earlier today unless my internet shut down and didn't complete the request which it might've done.
But it's simply common sense.
It's the manga section.
You use the manga as proof, nothing else.
D.I.Y Death
10-07-2008, 12:55 AM
Well, your the only dick around here. You said so yourself
sorry my fault for being so concerned.
Please go away. I don't like you and don't want to talk to you. Neither comment was directed at you so mind your own business.
TsuyoiTrav
10-07-2008, 12:55 AM
DO YOU PEOPLE ACTUALLY THING MADARAS HAD THE SAME BODY HE DID 100 YEARS AGO?
Seriously, A ninja can not live that long, wheres his long hair? WHY does he wear a mask and why does he call himself tobi? He had to get a new body to live longer, but there is no explanation for how he could have done it, for now id leave it at a tie since we dont know that much about Madara.
Doctor Octogonapus
10-07-2008, 12:57 AM
Travis calm down, we all have heard that before
DIY calm down although granted it's very amusing when you're riled up.
Smiley, rule 12, aren't I just the worst? But in all seriousness it was a rule before today and was supposed to be added to the rules today.
Owner of this thread, I just wanted to know who you meant, Madara or Tobi.
D.I.Y Death
10-07-2008, 01:07 AM
Aww I was looking forward to taking out my frustrations from the crappy megavideo on some poor little 14 year old who happened to step on the emotional land mine of my interrupted anime episodes. :(
At any rate Madara will most likely win against Itachi once we get more information on him. at this moment we know that Amaretsu doesn't work on him. Genjutsu is probably useless and there is doubt Susano can hit something that can't be hit. Basically this boils down to Madara or tobi laughing as Itachi get frustrated at nothing working and then dying from over exertion. If something happens to start working on Madara/Tobi he can just teleport away from the area and laugh some more.
PristineNymph
10-07-2008, 10:45 AM
We can't really clearly decide who would be the winner of this battle. Since we have never seen what Madara is capable of so what he would do would be just based purely on speculation with no evidence to back it up except for his ability of teleportation.
D.I.Y Death
10-07-2008, 03:44 PM
No everything in the book was just. Hell people been using info from the first and second databook before. Nearly all of leafninja is from the databook and manga.
The stats are rough. Itachi is around the same level as jiraya ect
Tell me what parts was crap.
Hands down the stats are total b.s. They don't make sense in conjunction with the magna and therefore it makes it unreliable and most likely a gimmick for poor people like you to get sucked into.
Other than that the ms description was pretty stupid and the feel of the book was "lets make something to milk our pathetic fans for all they are worth."
Zepzune
10-07-2008, 11:35 PM
How in the hell does madara have everything itachi has?
All ms jutsus are different ok.
Haha, i meant Uchiha bloodline type stuff. Jutsu, sharingan levels. so on...
X-Drake
10-08-2008, 12:18 AM
Hands down the stats are total b.s. They don't make sense in conjunction with the magna and therefore it makes it unreliable and most likely a gimmick for poor people like you to get sucked into.
Other than that the ms description was pretty stupid and the feel of the book was "lets make something to milk our pathetic fans for all they are worth."
Do not say people like "you" yh just cause your older, your over 20 and still watching anime's v.v
The stats were rough and Jiraya is stronger than most of the people in there. The most important parts were the jutsus, showing itachi sealed amatrasu and sasuke uses it in his left eye as what we think is a mirror effect as itachi's right amatarasu eye was facing sasuke left eye. Also the Q&As were intresting as well as histories.
Doctor Octogonapus
10-08-2008, 12:20 AM
Yet aren't relevant here because they can't be proven.
Read Rule Number 12 or go a few posts back.
It was already an official rule, yet there was no need to write it because everyone followed it.
Since no one is following it, it's been added to the rulebook.
X-Drake
10-08-2008, 12:22 AM
Yet aren't relevant here because they can't be proven.
Read Rule Number 12 or go a few posts back.
It was already an official rule, yet there was no need to write it because everyone followed it.
Since no one is following it, it's been added to the rulebook.
Agh the databook has manga clips, not the full panel as words are there. Like what is on the side of the front page, How is ??? Shino from the ??? ect
But ok i'll leave it for now.
Doctor Octogonapus
10-08-2008, 12:38 AM
Agh the databook has manga clips, not the full panel as words are there. Like what is on the side of the front page, How is ??? Shino from the ??? ect
But ok i'll leave it for now.
1. Yes, but it's not in the actual manga. It doesn't matter if it HAS manga, it has to be IN the manga.
2. No, not for now.
D.I.Y Death
10-08-2008, 12:48 AM
Do not say people like "you" yh just cause your older, your over 20 and still watching anime's v.v
The stats were rough and Jiraya is stronger than most of the people in there. The most important parts were the jutsus, showing itachi sealed amatrasu and sasuke uses it in his left eye as what we think is a mirror effect as itachi's right amatarasu eye was facing sasuke left eye. Also the Q&As were intresting as well as histories.
...Don't get me in a bad mood and don't insult me, age had nothing to do with this topic. Anime is just like normal t.v. little boy. Some is meant for kids some is for adults only which obviously is far beyond your comprehension.
Stats were complete junk. The other bits I'll agree with but those have little relevancy to this subject. If you don't like the fact that you can't use your precious databook cry to someone who gives a damn.
I feel better now. Don't piss me off when I wasn't insulting you or I will start to.
Do not say people like "you" yh just cause your older, your over 20 and still watching anime's
:)
Rofl win.
Anime is just like normal t.v. little boy. Some is meant for kids some is for adults only which obviously is far beyond your comprehension. (Not you xinobi, and vane xD)
Anime is mostly meant for kids/teens to watch.. I've never seen a grown person that has to pay bills/taxes that watches anime. unless your one of those adults that live with their mom's and read comics and anime all day. You hate children.
Once again, mostly everyone on this forum are teens. there are only a few adults on this forum Those are: Xinobi/Jay, vane, and you yourself.
So i suggest you just leave this forum.
Doctor Octogonapus
10-08-2008, 02:25 AM
Hey don't be hatin on DIY, he's cool, leave the guy alone xD
D.I.Y Death
10-08-2008, 05:12 AM
:)
Rofl win.
(Not you xinobi, and vane xD)
Anime is mostly meant for kids/teens to watch.. I've never seen a grown person that has to pay bills/taxes that watches anime. unless your one of those adults that live with their mom's and read comics and anime all day. You hate children.
Once again, mostly everyone on this forum are teens. there are only a few adults on this forum Those are: Xinobi/Jay, vane, and you yourself.
So i suggest you just leave this forum.
Instead of insulting you I'm just going to report you for insulting other users and blatant disrespect. This is what adults do when they have have to deal with problems in their life. They don't resort to rude comments like you just have.
Instead of insulting you I'm just going to report you for insulting other users
So now your going to false report me?
This is what adults do when they have have to deal with problems in their life. They don't resort to rude comments like you just have.
What problems? you dont even have a life.
If an adult came up to me saying he'll molest me with a fucking saw and hates me, of course i'd resort to a rude comments. this is what kids do, if you dont like it get over it. that's how life is.
D.I.Y Death
10-08-2008, 06:14 PM
So now your going to false report me?
What problems? you dont even have a life.
If an adult came up to me saying he'll molest me with a fucking saw and hates me, of course i'd resort to a rude comments. this is what kids do, if you dont like it get over it. that's how life is.
...I'm not even going to get into this with you. You're seeing what you want to see and have absolutely no sense of "black" humor or sarcasm. There you go again. Another rude post.
(how the hell am i trying to act ''black'' humorous)
..I'm not even going to get into this with you. You're seeing what you want to see and have absolutely no sense of "black" humor or sarcasm. There you go again. Another rude post.
It's ok. Even i wouldnt reply to something that's true. ''black'' humor? wtf are you talking about? what are you trying to say..... o_o
You want me to act black?
Acting black isn't my thing on the internet....
No offence, but your not the type to act sarcastic and humorous around. You don't have a sense of humor. but still, where df did the ''black'' thing come from? how was i trying to act black?
I am black, but how do i have no sense of ''black'' humor?
Sorry, i'm not an internet gangster. acting the way i do in real life on the internet? sorry, aint my thing.
I'm black, I grew up in a black community. (aka the ghetto, if you know what the fuck that is, dont live there anymore) So don't go on saying i have no sense of ''black humor''? Is this how you act in real life? always a dick? Keep it up and you might actually get shot by a black person.
Hey don't be hatin on DIY, he's cool, leave the guy alone xD
Him cool? Please man, you must be high on something. This ''adult'' right here is hatin on kids/teens.
He's a loser.
He's a hater.
He's a molester.
You hate on me. Son, I'll be hating on you too.
Who the hell hates children, and goes to a naruto forum knowing its filled with children?
Go kidnap and kill some kids or something man.
PristineNymph
10-09-2008, 10:49 AM
I find it amusing that he misunderstood the black humor thing and think that it was racist or something. And oh! I think I'm planning on continue on doing what I like even after I finished college and have a job. Conformity much? ^.^
On topic... there would be no real conclusion to this fight yet. Since this section requires manga pages as proof. And Tobi/Madara never really fought with anybody yet. So we can just assume that he kicks and punch. ^.^
And I don't think Itachi would be killed with only kicks and punches. -.-
D.I.Y Death
10-10-2008, 05:26 AM
(how the hell am i trying to act ''black'' humorous)
It's ok. Even i wouldnt reply to something that's true. ''black'' humor? wtf are you talking about? what are you trying to say..... o_o
You want me to act black?
Acting black isn't my thing on the internet....
No offence, but your not the type to act sarcastic and humorous around. You don't have a sense of humor. but still, where df did the ''black'' thing come from? how was i trying to act black?
I am black, but how do i have no sense of ''black'' humor?
Sorry, i'm not an internet gangster. acting the way i do in real life on the internet? sorry, aint my thing.
I'm black, I grew up in a black community. (aka the ghetto, if you know what the fuck that is, dont live there anymore) So don't go on saying i have no sense of ''black humor''? Is this how you act in real life? always a dick? Keep it up and you might actually get shot by a black person.
Him cool? Please man, you must be high on something. This ''adult'' right here is hatin on kids/teens.
He's a loser.
He's a hater.
He's a molester.
You hate on me. Son, I'll be hating on you too.
Who the hell hates children, and goes to a naruto forum knowing its filled with children?
Go kidnap and kill some kids or something man.
Kids and teens are different. but right now I'm loling at your ban for being such a prick when I hadn't said anything to you until this thread.
I agree. Any calls made right now are biased and useless. Lets post here once we see Madara in a battle.
WhiteFang
10-09-2009, 01:56 PM
*revives*
Well we've just seen a bit of the awesomeness that is Uchiha Madara.
I think he'd own Itachi. Suck him into the dimension through his eye. xDDD
MinatoNamikaze
10-09-2009, 09:23 PM
*revives*
Well we've just seen a bit of the awesomeness that is Uchiha Madara.
I think he'd own Itachi. Suck him into the dimension through his eye. xDDD
Well if its CURRENT manga madara then Itachi still rapes. Madara still has only the sharingan so itachi has superiority in the sharingan and genjutsu department which basically cancels out taijutsu. Madara could teleport behind itachi but itachis incredible reflexes cancels that out. SO really with genjutsu Itachi wins
TOTCD
10-09-2009, 09:25 PM
I think that Itachi actually stood a chance against the current Madara.
How else would you explain that he waited untill Itachi died to attack Konoha?
Hauclir
10-09-2009, 09:55 PM
He waited till Itachi killed himself for Sasgays sake, before attacking Konoha, because Itachi is god.. and would of layed some smack down..
Madara still has only the sharingan
Wait wasnt it stated by the girl kage (I forget proper names sometimes I think it was Tsuchikage but cant remember) that Madara has MS?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/13/
So umm yeah lol
And Itachi even called him a shell of his former self yet still said he needed the EMS to surpass him.
But Itachi against Madara as I see it would lead Itachi to losing since he wouldnt be beat actually but as Fang said Madara would just send him to that other deminsion and end the fight there lol. Itachi cant use Tsukiyomi on him as he
1.Has MS himself
2.Moves to quickly also
And we know Amaterasu cant effect him so thats another technique down.
Susanoo wont work even if the Sword of Totsuka could actually pierce him with him phasing ability since Madara can easily teleport away from that.
Again Madara technically wins since he cant be hit so far with what we know Itachi has, he can just teleport around then get around Itachi and active his eye vacuum and suck Itachi to another deminsion thus ending the fight even if he cant kill him lol
And Ive been wondering. We know Tsukiyomi can be canceled by another MS. So what if this Mugen Tsukiyomi was cast, could someone with MS get out of it? Or is it possible that someone with EMS could (maybe being a reason why Itachi stated all that stuff that he could surpass Madara if he did have those eyes). Just a guess lol
MinatoNamikaze
10-10-2009, 12:23 AM
Wait wasnt it stated by the girl kage (I forget proper names sometimes I think it was Tsuchikage but cant remember) that Madara has MS?
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/467/13/
So umm yeah lol
No, he HAD it. Also, its not valid proof because what would she know?? She didnt even know he was alive. Finally, this statement was contradicted by madara later when he said he was a shell of his former self.
And Itachi even called him a shell of his former self yet still said he needed the EMS to surpass him.
No again, Itachi said he needed them to surpass the INVINCIBLE madara not the weak pathetic one. Also he said he wanted to be the strongest of all time, not of the ones now specifically.
But Itachi against Madara as I see it would lead Itachi to losing since he wouldnt be beat actually but as Fang said Madara would just send him to that other deminsion and end the fight there lol. Itachi cant use Tsukiyomi on him as he
1.Has MS himself
2.Moves to quickly also
1. Madara doesnt have MS
2. Speed is irrelevant with tsukiyomi. If u look for an instance ur finished
And we know Amaterasu cant effect him so thats another technique down.
True
Susanoo wont work even if the Sword of Totsuka could actually pierce him with him phasing ability since Madara can easily teleport away from that.
You cant break out of susanoos genjutsu once your scraped by the swrod so again not true
Again Madara technically wins since he cant be hit so far with what we know Itachi has, he can just teleport around then get around Itachi and active his eye vacuum and suck Itachi to another deminsion thus ending the fight even if he cant kill him lol
Just because he teleports itachi away doesnt mean he wins?? How do u conclude that? Its like ppl argueing well ____ can just leave the battlefield until susano is finished and then come back and fight. Its broken logic. If he teleports itachi away, then its just a no contest
And Ive been wondering. We know Tsukiyomi can be canceled by another MS. So what if this Mugen Tsukiyomi was cast, could someone with MS get out of it? Or is it possible that someone with EMS could (maybe being a reason why Itachi stated all that stuff that he could surpass Madara if he did have those eyes). Just a guess
Ya very possible. I mean theres a reason madara is so desperate to get his EMS back. It must have incredible power or maybe it transforms into the rinnegan or something. Who knows
Nikushimi
10-10-2009, 12:56 AM
I don't even know at this point.
Itachi seemed to imply to Sasuke that he was weaker than Madara, since he mentioned that obtaining Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan would allow him to surpass Madara. But whether or not he was referring to CURRENT Madara is the issue. Was he talking about Madara's original power? Also, does that mean he was weaker than Madara, or were they tied?
Madara also states towards the end of the recent chapter that he has "no power of [his] own", which...brings up a fuckton of new questions.
In any case, I'll go with Madara winning this one, by a hair. He's the guy who manipulated Pain and the entire Akatsuki organization from the shadows, the one who first tamed the Kyuubi, the invincible immortal... It just makes sense. He's got 80+ years under his belt and some neat space-time manipulation. He's also shown excellent Taijutsu...blocking the Kubikiri Houchou with one arm.
There's really not enough information to reach a definitive conclusion on this one. This thread should probably stay locked until we actually see him in a protracted fight with a competent opponent, or at least get some better statements or examples to identify him on the power scale.
sun_dragon_shinobi
10-17-2009, 06:09 PM
Tobi would win. Please tell me if im wrong.
Both Pein and madara are the two i dont about but by seeing what he can do i'll say Madara wins.
No, he HAD it.
Prove he still doesnt have it.
Also, its not valid proof because what would she know?? She didnt even know he was alive.
Well ok prove her wrong. I could care less whether he does have it or doesnt. Hell if he doesnt that just proves my theory right from before with an added bonus. But you cant claim he doesnt have it without him actually saying he doesnt have it and he never says he doesnt have it straight forward. My thought is since he's such an honest guy now after the girl kage said he had it he would have said "no I dont have it" if he didnt have it.
Finally, this statement was contradicted by madara later when he said he was a shell of his former self.
That doesnt contradict it. That just means he's a shell of his former self. You cant start pulling your own meanings and calling them right with no way to back them up.
No again, Itachi said he needed them to surpass the INVINCIBLE madara not the weak pathetic one.
:lmao: There one in the same. Your point doesnt add up because
1.If he didnt need the EMS to win he could beat him without it then
2.Since he doesnt need it to win he would have just fought and beat him since he was really a good guy remember ;) he wouldnt have let Madara get as far as he did. He would have stopped him earlier and been a greater hero for defeating the mastermind Madara who is now the cause of the 4th great Ninja War lol
1. Madara doesnt have MS
2. Speed is irrelevant with tsukiyomi. If u look for an instance ur finished
1.Again prove it
2.Amaterasu had the same rules only didnt have to look into the eyes. Just being looked at by Itachi meant losing.
Plus Sasuke broke out of a Tsukiyomi with base 3 tomoe so taking that giving a man 80+ years with the Sharingan and far more knowledge on Tsukiyomi he can break out of it also.
You cant break out of susanoos genjutsu once your scraped by the swrod so again not true
Yeah but point is he wont get scraped. He isnt going to get hit with that warping ability of his. And it might even be debated that the sword cant even hit him since it might just pass right through him.
Just because he teleports itachi away doesnt mean he wins?? How do u conclude that?
Ok your on a battlefield of say 30km and you have a crowd of people watching and spectating. Then one enemy just disapears never to show up again. He left the battlefield to never be seen by anyone again. Is that not winning? Hell after a good 2 weeks or so Itachi would just starve to death xD
Its like ppl argueing well ____ can just leave the battlefield until susano is finished and then come back and fight. Its broken logic. If he teleports itachi away, then its just a no contest
No if Madara warps Itachi away to a dimension with no food or water technically Madara wins after 2 weeks its over :p
MinatoNamikaze
10-17-2009, 10:35 PM
Prove he still doesnt have it.
You make this point a few times so ill just say it once here for simplicity sake if thats ok with you:
It is actually YOU who has to prove he still has MS. We have only seen regular sharingan and it is heavily hinted that he DOESNT have MS. So in reality you have to prove he does have it, not the other way around.
This is exactly like me trying to prove itachi could manipulate amateratsu. Its fairly logical to think he could, BUT he was never shown to be able to and hence i cant argue he could with 100% certainty.
Well ok prove her wrong. I could care less whether he does have it or doesnt. Hell if he doesnt that just proves my theory right from before with an added bonus. But you cant claim he doesnt have it without him actually saying he doesnt have it and he never says he doesnt have it straight forward. My thought is since he's such an honest guy now after the girl kage said he had it he would have said "no I dont have it" if he didnt have it.
^^
That doesnt contradict it. That just means he's a shell of his former self. You cant start pulling your own meanings and calling them right with no way to back them up.
^^
:lmao: There one in the same. Your point doesnt add up because
1.If he didnt need the EMS to win he could beat him without it then
2.Since he doesnt need it to win he would have just fought and beat him since he was really a good guy remember ;) he wouldnt have let Madara get as far as he did. He would have stopped him earlier and been a greater hero for defeating the mastermind Madara who is now the cause of the 4th great Ninja War lol
However it is very possible that they are almost equal in power at the time and going to battle woulda been WAAAY to risky for either of them
1.Again prove it
2.Amaterasu had the same rules only didnt have to look into the eyes. Just being looked at by Itachi meant losing.
Plus Sasuke broke out of a Tsukiyomi with base 3 tomoe so taking that giving a man 80+ years with the Sharingan and far more knowledge on Tsukiyomi he can break out of it also.
Actually amateratsu takes a second to finish. And once you make eye contact the effect is INSTANT. Its not about speed cause even Gai wouldnt look itachi n the eye.
Also, that was a fully charged, bloodlusted healthy sasuke. Madara isint nearly powerful enough to break tsukiyomi in his state
Yeah but point is he wont get scraped. He isnt going to get hit with that warping ability of his. And it might even be debated that the sword cant even hit him since it might just pass right through him.
Ill agree to that. Unless hes hit by tsukiyomi and left vulnerable
Ok your on a battlefield of say 30km and you have a crowd of people watching and spectating. Then one enemy just disapears never to show up again. He left the battlefield to never be seen by anyone again. Is that not winning? Hell after a good 2 weeks or so Itachi would just starve to death xD
No if Madara warps Itachi away to a dimension with no food or water technically Madara wins after 2 weeks its over :p
:lmao: funny ;) But in all seriousness, teleporting someone away isint a battle feat cause u dont kill them.
Smiley
10-18-2009, 01:19 AM
It is actually YOU who has to prove he still has MS. We have only seen regular sharingan and it is heavily hinted that he DOESNT have MS. So in reality you have to prove he does have it, not the other way around.
Itachi said that there would be three living Mangekyou users if Sasuke had obtained the MS. Then, he revealed the third user was Madara. Current Madara might have the regular Mangekyou, but probably not the EMS.
Anyway, I also think Itachi might stand a chance against current Madara. Madara himself said he is "powerless" now, and Itachi himself indicated the EMS was what separated his power from Madara's. So, since he's heavily implied to have lost his eye power during his fight with Shodai, I'd think Itachi might be able to beat him the way he is now.
However, Prime Madara, or Madara after he obtains the EMS or the Juubi, would murder him.
You make this point a few times so ill just say it once here for simplicity sake if thats ok with you:
It is actually YOU who has to prove he still has MS. We have only seen regular sharingan and it is heavily hinted that he DOESNT have MS. So in reality you have to prove he does have it, not the other way around.
This is exactly like me trying to prove itachi could manipulate amateratsu. Its fairly logical to think he could, BUT he was never shown to be able to and hence i cant argue he could with 100% certainty.
She said he had it and he didnt say no. Thats what points me in the direction of thinking he does or might have it.
^^
The shell of his former self does not contradict him not having MS :confused: it could just mean he is weaker at everything. Who knows.
However it is very possible that they are almost equal in power at the time and going to battle woulda been WAAAY to risky for either of them
Or it is even more possible that Madara is more powerful since Itachi is reaching for that much more power to beat him. Plus your theory has a gap. The gap that if he did have the power to kill Madara he would have already since he knows Madara is this mastermind of masterminds. If he had the power to stop Madara earlier from getting all these Bijuus why did he do the opposite and just help him? :confused:
Actually amateratsu takes a second to finish.
NO its not. Dont start trying to change your views on Amaterasu now. You've always been the main person talking about how Amatasu is instant. You instantly catch fire and lose. You never said there was a second interval before. Dont start changing your story now. You even said before that it was instant.
And once you make eye contact the effect is INSTANT.
Amaterasu was suppose to be also. But Tsukiyomi wont work on a true Uchiha bloodline 3 tomoe sharingan. Sasuke is proof of this that it can be overcame if you have 3 tomoe and have true Uchiha blood and Madara's is just about the most truest being the oldest meaning close to the purest xD
Its not about speed cause even Gai wouldnt look itachi n the eye.
Umm ok and neither was Amaterasu at first. Like in the Sasori Itachi thread ;) and the fact that everytime something came up you were the main one to use the words of Sasori saying "Amatarsu is unavoidable". If you dont remember I can try and find a few of your posts of you making that claim that it is indeed unavoidable. You were saying that its unavoidable because it worked instantly. But now you change your argument lol
Also, that was a fully charged, bloodlusted healthy sasuke. Madara isint nearly powerful enough to break tsukiyomi in his state
Huuuh? You mean the man who blocked Zabuza's sword with one arm, the same man that instantly warped and grapped Sasuke from getting "smashed to smithereens" as the Tsuchikage claims, and the same Madara who has had like at least 3 defeating blows pass right through him? He is obviously strong enough to do some things. And he is by far the purest of Uchiha since he is the oldest.
Ill agree to that. Unless hes hit by tsukiyomi and left vulnerable
Thats if he doesnt just laugh at the use of Tsukiyomi and break out like Sasuke did.
funny But in all seriousness, teleporting someone away isint a battle feat cause u dont kill them.
YOu dont have to kill to win a fight ;) and it is a technique, and Itachi would die if he didnt eat after a period of time so technically not existing in the normal world anymore and eventually going to starve to death means ... well death xD
But yeah you dont have to kill someone to win I just wanted to repeat that xD
Itachi said that there would be three living Mangekyou users if Sasuke had obtained the MS. Then, he revealed the third user was Madara. Current Madara might have the regular Mangekyou, but probably not the EMS.
And damn you are right I forgot about that part. Im also agreeing about the EMS.
But yeah MN thats some more proof. +rep to smiley for that part xD
MinatoNamikaze
10-18-2009, 05:14 AM
Itachi said that there would be three living Mangekyou users if Sasuke had obtained the MS. Then, he revealed the third user was Madara. Current Madara might have the regular Mangekyou, but probably not the EMS.
Anyway, I also think Itachi might stand a chance against current Madara. Madara himself said he is "powerless" now, and Itachi himself indicated the EMS was what separated his power from Madara's. So, since he's heavily implied to have lost his eye power during his fight with Shodai, I'd think Itachi might be able to beat him the way he is now.
However, Prime Madara, or Madara after he obtains the EMS or the Juubi, would murder him.
Very good. THATS the proof Vane needed. Although as Majin would say its "secondary proof" i think its substantial enough to say that madara does infact have MS.
And ya i agree to the next bit aswell
I'll make this point again
If Itachi was stronger than or equal to Madara why didnt he just go ahead and kill him since he was in fact a good guy the whole time and knew of Madara and his plan the whole time?
Maybe its because Itachi couldnt beat him and he knew it so he was wanting more power but wouldnt go through with actually killing his own brother so he tried helping his brother get power to be able to beat Madara.
But if he was equal to Madara then why didnt he just go ahead and take that risk of possibly losing? He was gonna die anyways and even set up a whole fight for him to lose and die. He knew Madara was getting these Bijuu for a bad purpose why wouldnt he team up then sneak away and kill Madara before his plan got so far? A plan that he helped Madara achieve. If he was equal and it was risky he should have taken his chance so in turn if he did win everything would be over but if he didnt he'd pretty much be like he is now... dead.
NaruxHina_4_Ever
10-18-2009, 05:41 AM
Yeah i'm gonna have to agree with Vane on this one.
In the end there is no evidence to support Madara being weak in any way.
From what we have seen he must have been as strong if not stronger then Itachi (Or Itachi would have taken him out) and all this talk of "Shells of former selves" and "powerless" are pointless with no reference point to what power limit they refer.
As for MS there is nothing to say he doesn't have it.
Nikushimi
10-27-2009, 12:15 AM
I'll make this point again
If Itachi was stronger than or equal to Madara why didnt he just go ahead and kill him since he was in fact a good guy the whole time and knew of Madara and his plan the whole time?
Maybe its because Itachi couldnt beat him and he knew it so he was wanting more power but wouldnt go through with actually killing his own brother so he tried helping his brother get power to be able to beat Madara.
But if he was equal to Madara then why didnt he just go ahead and take that risk of possibly losing? He was gonna die anyways and even set up a whole fight for him to lose and die. He knew Madara was getting these Bijuu for a bad purpose why wouldnt he team up then sneak away and kill Madara before his plan got so far? A plan that he helped Madara achieve. If he was equal and it was risky he should have taken his chance so in turn if he did win everything would be over but if he didnt he'd pretty much be like he is now... dead.
It's actually not that simple, at all.
Itachi's agenda was oriented more around Sasuke, and while I'm sure he would've at least tried to kill Madara if he had nothing better to do, the fact of the matter is, he did have something better to do, which was to die by Sasuke's hand and awaken his Mangekyou Sharingan, as well as extract Orochimaru and the Juin.
Because the other flip-side to it is, if Madara was stronger than Itachi, why didn't HE just kill him? It seems to be implied...that the two were at least reasonably close enough in power...that the outcome of a fight between the two would be heavily dictated by circumstance...and that both were bound to lose something, in the worst case even their lives. And there is of course always the likelihood that Madara needed Itachi in some twisted capacity to go through and succeed in his plans in order to win Sasuke over.
Most likely though, I would have to agree that Madara had the edge. Itachi was effing strong, but it simply wouldn't make sense for him to stand on the same tier of strength as the primary final villain candidate (though personally, I'm still pushing for Orochimaru on that one).
Yeah i'm gonna have to agree with Vane on this one.
In the end there is no evidence to support Madara being weak in any way.
From what we have seen he must have been as strong if not stronger then Itachi (Or Itachi would have taken him out) and all this talk of "Shells of former selves" and "powerless" are pointless with no reference point to what power limit they refer.
That doesn't mean it can simply be ignored. The fact of the matter is, Madara's power HAS been cut down in some respect, and he even seems to admit to a degree of impotence.
We simply don't know the details yet. We should wait until it is further expounded upon.
As for MS there is nothing to say he doesn't have it.
Of course he has it. Itachi stated there would be three Mangekyou Sharingan users living if Sasuke activated it (which is actually false, since Itachi died- or was he implying yet ANOTHER Mangekyou user? PLOT TWEEST.), and he also stated that Madara's eyes and their power remained alive and well.
So he may even have Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan, but the exact details are sketchy to say the least.
It's actually not that simple, at all.
And its not the complicating either.
Itachi's agenda was oriented more around Sasuke, and while I'm sure he would've at least tried to kill Madara if he had nothing better to do, the fact of the matter is, he did have something better to do, which was to die by Sasuke's hand and awaken his Mangekyou Sharingan,
His plan wasnt to awaken Sasuke's MS. He left the fight having Sasuke consider him his worst enemy not his best friend. Itachis only plan was to extract the Orochimaru and the Juin since he made Sasuke consider him his worst enemy. He didnt make things so that Sasuke would follow Madara later and consider him a best friend. Madara is what made Sasuke consider Itachi a best friend and Itachi was trying to avoid that.
Heres the link proving Itachi didnt want Madara to meet Sasuke "Click (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/03/)"
And again Madara is the one that made Sasuke see Itachi as a best friend and helping him gain MS.
Because the other flip-side to it is, if Madara was stronger than Itachi, why didn't HE just kill him?
There is no flip side. He didnt kill Itachi because Itachi was helping him. Good help is hard to come by especially help as good as Itachi's. Itachi aided him in capturing a beast with the help of Kisame. Itachi aided him in the slowing down of Kakashi and co. to save Gaara. Madara also used him to gain Sasuke into his ranks who he seen from the beginning as someone who will surpass Itachi. Madara was using Itachi's help to further his own plan.
It seems to be implied...that the two were at least reasonably close enough in power.
Not quite you were the one talking about hype before in that other thread, Madara is by far waaay more hyped even with him saying he is weaker then his old self. He says that yet he waltz on into the Kage summit and has a nice little chit chat about taking over the world. I think that implies more.
that the outcome of a fight between the two would be heavily dictated by circumstance...and that both were bound to lose something, in the worst case even their lives. And there is of course always the likelihood that Madara needed Itachi in some twisted capacity to go through and succeed in his plans in order to win Sasuke over.
Exactly. He used Itachi to further his own selfish plans.
Most likely though, I would have to agree that Madara had the edge. Itachi was effing strong, but it simply wouldn't make sense for him to stand on the same tier of strength as the primary final villain candidate (though personally, I'm still pushing for Orochimaru on that one).
I somewhat agree with you here and I personally agree with you on the Orochimaru also. I think Orochimaru being the main villain in the whole first part and dies in the second part would make for a nice twist as the final final villain.
Nikushimi
11-01-2009, 03:07 AM
And its not the complicating either.
What are you talking about? It IS complicated.
His plan wasnt to awaken Sasuke's MS. He left the fight having Sasuke consider him his worst enemy not his best friend. Itachis only plan was to extract the Orochimaru and the Juin since he made Sasuke consider him his worst enemy. He didnt make things so that Sasuke would follow Madara later and consider him a best friend. Madara is what made Sasuke consider Itachi a best friend and Itachi was trying to avoid that.
Heres the link proving Itachi didnt want Madara to meet Sasuke "Click (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/03/)"
And again Madara is the one that made Sasuke see Itachi as a best friend and helping him gain MS.
Madara stated that Itachi died in order to awaken Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan. He plausibly could have anticipated that Madara would survive Amaterasu somehow and tell Sasuke the truth...which is kinda supported by the expectation he expressed previously to Naruto about how Sasuke might end up going after Konoha.
There is no flip side. He didnt kill Itachi because Itachi was helping him. Good help is hard to come by especially help as good as Itachi's. Itachi aided him in capturing a beast with the help of Kisame. Itachi aided him in the slowing down of Kakashi and co. to save Gaara. Madara also used him to gain Sasuke into his ranks who he seen from the beginning as someone who will surpass Itachi. Madara was using Itachi's help to further his own plan.
Itachi wasn't just helping, he was spying on the Akatsuki, leaking their secrets, and preventing Madara from attacking Konoha.
Not quite you were the one talking about hype before in that other thread, Madara is by far waaay more hyped even with him saying he is weaker then his old self. He says that yet he waltz on into the Kage summit and has a nice little chit chat about taking over the world. I think that implies more.
Except that Madara himself hyped Itachi, going so far as to admit he could've been killed by the Amaterasu trap if only Itachi knew a bit more about him. Besides, Madara isn't the only one to casually walk all over Kage-level ninja; Itachi's done that, too.
Exactly. He used Itachi to further his own selfish plans.
The only thing Itachi really helped with was the sealing ritual. He never captured or intended to capture Naruto and he smiled when his Shouten was defeated, indicating he wanted it to happen and may have even thrown the fight. On the other hand, like I said, he forced Madara to stay away from Konoha, and from Sasuke.
I somewhat agree with you here and I personally agree with you on the Orochimaru also. I think Orochimaru being the main villain in the whole first part and dies in the second part would make for a nice twist as the final final villain.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have such an integral villain with such high-aimed ambitions end up just another brick in the wall... I dunno. I'm hoping his dreams of becoming the ultimate shinobi are achieved.
What are you talking about? It IS complicated.
Then its only complicating to you then :p
Madara stated that Itachi died in order to awaken Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan. He plausibly could have anticipated that Madara would survive Amaterasu somehow and tell Sasuke the truth...which is kinda supported by the expectation he expressed previously to Naruto about how Sasuke might end up going after Konoha.
How so then? Itachi wanted Sasuke to hate him. If Sasuke hated Itachi (like Itachi wanted and led Sasuke to) then he cant get MS that way. Meaning Itachi's intentions couldnt have been to awaken Sasuke's MS. Madara's word doesnt add up to the story at hand. Theres proof against Madara. And just like you said Itachi plausibly could have but like you said its only plausible, not fact. Theres more facts against Madara saying that. Itachi couldnt have done all that to awaken Sasuke's MS since he made Sasuke hate him his whole life. Itachi was a good guy he didnt want Sasuke to turn around and attack Konoha.
Itachi wasn't just helping, he was spying on the Akatsuki, leaking their secrets, and preventing Madara from attacking Konoha.
Leaking little secrets that didnt have no big effect on Akatsuki? Yeah those are minor insignificance's compared to Itachi's overall help to the group itself. Its all about which outweighs the other and Madara obviously seen that Itachi's help outweighed Itachi leaking a few minor secrets. Also gaining Sasuke in turn.
The only thing Itachi really helped with was the sealing ritual.
Nope he also helped with
1.Bringing Sasuke to Madara
2.Slowing down team Kakashi from saving Gara
3.Helping in the capture of the 4 tailed Bijuu
4.Gathering info for Akatsuki
5. and helping with the extraction.
All of those especially the first one are the big counters that outweighed Itachi leaking a little info that Madara seen and took advantage of.
Also dont forget that Madara hid things from Itachi also like you said, meaning he possibly hid the major things from Itachi since he knew Itachi was a spy, so he didnt tell Itachi the major stuff and only gave Itachi Insignificant information to be leaked.
He never captured or intended to capture Naruto and he smiled when his Shouten was defeated,
He helped in the 4 tails capture.
And that smiling can be taken more than one way. To me it showed that the whole time he was merely playing with them and for them to have defeated him and thought they accomplished something in there lifes he thought the idea of that was funny.
And the more logical for that smile is that it was only thrown in as plot. Like when Naruto hit him with a suped up Rasengan the author showed the smile to show that something wasnt right about the situation. That smile had no role on the story and how Itachi thought.
indicating he wanted it to happen and may have even thrown the fight.
Of course he threw it. He was only slowing team Kakashi down from saving Gara. That was the whole purpose. He probably knew his and Kisame's shouten wouldnt win but was only to slow the group down.
On the other hand, like I said, he forced Madara to stay away from Konoha, and from Sasuke.
How so? Madara still got Sasuke.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to me to have such an integral villain with such high-aimed ambitions end up just another brick in the wall... I dunno. I'm hoping his dreams of becoming the ultimate shinobi are achieved.
:lmao: well Im not hoping for that but I am hoping for him to come out hella stonger and a power to be reckoned with for our heroine to have to face down and defeat xD lol
MinatoNamikaze
11-03-2009, 12:21 AM
I'll make this point again
If Itachi was stronger than or equal to Madara why didnt he just go ahead and kill him since he was in fact a good guy the whole time and knew of Madara and his plan the whole time?
Maybe its because Itachi couldnt beat him and he knew it so he was wanting more power but wouldnt go through with actually killing his own brother so he tried helping his brother get power to be able to beat Madara.
But if he was equal to Madara then why didnt he just go ahead and take that risk of possibly losing? He was gonna die anyways and even set up a whole fight for him to lose and die. He knew Madara was getting these Bijuu for a bad purpose why wouldnt he team up then sneak away and kill Madara before his plan got so far? A plan that he helped Madara achieve. If he was equal and it was risky he should have taken his chance so in turn if he did win everything would be over but if he didnt he'd pretty much be like he is now... dead.
One major reason Itachi wouldnt have made a move? Because as great as Itachi is, he couldnt take on the whole of akatsuki alone. Noone could.
If madara was strong enough, he would simply killed itachi, revealed the fact that he helped kill the uchiha and sasuke woulda still went after him and obtained EMS when he took Itachis eyes (who he woulda hated)
Its a very complicated matter, but i beleive Itachi and Madara were playing a very tactful game of chess inwhich Itachi will ultimatly win
NaruxHina_4_Ever
11-03-2009, 01:02 AM
One major reason Itachi wouldnt have made a move? Because as great as Itachi is, he couldnt take on the whole of akatsuki alone. Noone could.
However his fight with Sasuke basically showed he had no qualms about dying to achieve his goals.
If he was so willing to die why not do it taking out Madara and as many Akatsuki members as possible?
If madara was strong enough, he would simply killed itachi, revealed the fact that he helped kill the uchiha and sasuke woulda still went after him and obtained EMS when he took Itachis eyes (who he woulda hated)
2 points
1/If Madara killed Itachi then he wouldn't have gotten Sasuke.
If Madara truly didn't want Itachi he could simply have excluded him from Akatsuki and been done with him
No For Madara the best thing was to keep Itachi near by.
2/Sasuke would never have got EMS (Cos he never had MS) and would never have gone after Madara either.
Remember that the information regarding Madara came from Madara himself who admitted his part in the massacre.
If Itachi was killed straight away then Sasuke would have lost all reason to even try to go after any akatsuki member and I doubt Madara would ahve had any reason to pursue him (Or had much better tacts to try).
Its a very complicated matter, but i beleive Itachi and Madara were playing a very tactful game of chess inwhich Itachi will ultimatly win
No
Itachi will help but Ultimately Naruto and Sasuke will be the ones to win where all others fail.
MinatoNamikaze
11-03-2009, 01:10 AM
However his fight with Sasuke basically showed he had no qualms about dying to achieve his goals.
If he was so willing to die why not do it taking out Madara and as many Akatsuki members as possible?
I meant that Itachi would not be able to take out Madara while fighting Hidan, kakuzu, deidara, Sasori, Kisame, etc.
2 points
1/If Madara killed Itachi then he wouldn't have gotten Sasuke.
If Madara truly didn't want Itachi he could simply have excluded him from Akatsuki and been done with him
No For Madara the best thing was to keep Itachi near by.
2/Sasuke would never have got EMS (Cos he never had MS) and would never have gone after Madara either.
Remember that the information regarding Madara came from Madara himself who admitted his part in the massacre.
If Itachi was killed straight away then Sasuke would have lost all reason to even try to go after any akatsuki member and I doubt Madara would ahve had any reason to pursue him (Or had much better tacts to try).
Actually thats not valid because Madara wants sasuke for his eyes. He coulda simply killed Itachi, held onto his eyes, told sasuke the truth, made sasuke angery at him, and sasuke woulda killed naruto and then taken Itachis eyes and had EMS. Much simpiler
No
Itachi will help but Ultimately Naruto and Sasuke will be the ones to win where all others fail.
Actually, naruto/sasuke will only be able to win in the end BECAUSE of itachis efforts. Just watch and youll see
NaruxHina_4_Ever
11-03-2009, 01:20 AM
I meant that Itachi would not be able to take out Madara while fighting Hidan, kakuzu, deidara, Sasori, Kisame, etc.
However.
Itachi can fix it so that he fights an enemy alone.
Why could he not fix it so he was alone with an "ally"?
Plus he had the time during and just after the massacre to do something to Madara and how many years after that?
Actually thats not valid because Madara wants sasuke for his eyes. He coulda simply killed Itachi, held onto his eyes, told sasuke the truth, made sasuke angery at him, and sasuke woulda killed naruto and then taken Itachis eyes and had EMS. Much simpiler
Why would Sasuke kill Naruto here?
The truth even now does not lead Sasuke to the path of killing Naruto?
Actually, naruto/sasuke will only be able to win in the end BECAUSE of itachis efforts. Just watch and youll see
He is one of many pieces of the puzzle along with the Forth, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Fukusaku, Oro even to name a few who all helped both Naruto and Sasuke achieve it.
One major reason Itachi wouldnt have made a move? Because as great as Itachi is, he couldnt take on the whole of akatsuki alone. Noone could.
Itachi found Madara. Madara never came out and said he was Madara also, so if Itachi had the ability to kill Madara he could have an no one would have known or cared in the Akatsuki besides Pein and Pein wouldnt even know since Madara (disguised as Tobi) wouldnt have been found since Itachi found him meaning he had alone time with Madara and could have killed him. Thats all there is to it.
If madara was strong enough, he would simply killed itachi,
No because Itachi was still helping Madara regardless
1.Helped slow down Kakashi and co.
2. Helped capture the 4 tails
those were major assets to Madara.
revealed the fact that he helped kill the uchiha and sasuke woulda still went after him and obtained EMS when he took Itachis eyes (who he woulda hated)
No because if he had killed Itachi earlier he wouldnt have got the help Itachi provided the whole time. And if he killed him earlier it would have been Sasuke wouldnt have cared and came all that way since Itachi was already dead. He could have seaked out Madara to find out but then the fight with Itachi and Sasuke wouldnt have taken place and helped Sasuke realize these things. Sasuke wouldnt have got MS.
Its a very complicated matter,
Only to the people trying to defend Itachi in this thread :lmao:
but i beleive Itachi and Madara were playing a very tactful game of chess inwhich Itachi will ultimatly win
You might be right but if Itachi could have killed him earlier he would have is the point.
MinatoNamikaze
11-04-2009, 01:32 AM
Itachi found Madara. Madara never came out and said he was Madara also, so if Itachi had the ability to kill Madara he could have an no one would have known or cared in the Akatsuki besides Pein and Pein wouldnt even know since Madara (disguised as Tobi) wouldnt have been found since Itachi found him meaning he had alone time with Madara and could have killed him. Thats all there is to it.
HOWEVER, neither of them knew the others full potential. Madara never reveale all his secrets adn neither did itachi. It woulda been to risky for either of them to make a move because the course of history and the destiny of the world relied on the actions of those 2 individuals.
No because Itachi was still helping Madara regardless
1.Helped slow down Kakashi and co.
2. Helped capture the 4 tails
those were major assets to Madara.
Actually its a negative. Madara knew Itachi wouldnt harm them. If he wanted to get rid of them, he woulda sent sasori or kisame or someone after them, not a spy.
No because if he had killed Itachi earlier he wouldnt have got the help Itachi provided the whole time. And if he killed him earlier it would have been Sasuke wouldnt have cared and came all that way since Itachi was already dead. He could have seaked out Madara to find out but then the fight with Itachi and Sasuke wouldnt have taken place and helped Sasuke realize these things. Sasuke wouldnt have got MS.
However he coulda still had sasuke on his side by revealing all the truth. Sasuke woulda still been just as pissed off.
Only to the people trying to defend Itachi in this thread :lmao:
:xd:
You might be right but if Itachi could have killed him earlier he would have is the point.
This was adressed above. It was too risky for either of the titans to make a move
HOWEVER, neither of them knew the others full potential.
Potential smotential, they both knew that Madara was stronger. Madara knew he was stronger but used Itachi to gain the little things. Itachi knew Madara was stronger so he didnt attempt to kill him but to join his group and help from the inside.
If he wanted to get rid of them, he woulda sent sasori or kisame or someone after them, not a spy.
Madara knew Itachi would still at least slow them down regardless. That was all Madara wanted was to slow them down so the extraction could finish.
However he coulda still had sasuke on his side by revealing all the truth.
No because Sasuke wouldnt have believed it all had that fight with Sasuke and Itachi not taken place. Sasuke only realized Madara was telling the truth by events in that fight. He realized when Madara said it that Itachi had chances to finish him and he only realized it then. Sasuke wouldnt have been up for Madara had Itachi and Sasuke not fought.
Sasuke woulda still been just as pissed off.
Of course but in that event when Sasuke didnt believe Madara he would have attempted to kill him and Madara would have either fled so he didnt have to kill Sasuke or he would have killed him. Either way without that necessary fight between Sasuke and Itachi, Sasuke wouldnt have joined or believed Madara.
To be honest the thing I think that made Sasuke realize Madara was telling the truth was during that fight Itachi had Sasuke in a corner, and Sasuke knew he was finished but Itachi only poked his forehead. I think thats what made Sasuke realize Madara was telling the truth about Itachi rigging that fight and realize he was telling the truth.
This was adressed above. It was too risky for either of the titans to make a move
No I think they both knew that Madara was stronger. But I do think they were playing a game of chess with each other xD
Nikushimi
11-07-2009, 09:44 AM
Then its only complicating to you then :p
No, it's simply complicated, that's a fact. There's nothing simple or direct about this issue, otherwise, it would have been resolved already.
How so then? Itachi wanted Sasuke to hate him. If Sasuke hated Itachi (like Itachi wanted and led Sasuke to) then he cant get MS that way. Meaning Itachi's intentions couldnt have been to awaken Sasuke's MS. Madara's word doesnt add up to the story at hand. Theres proof against Madara. And just like you said Itachi plausibly could have but like you said its only plausible, not fact. Theres more facts against Madara saying that. Itachi couldnt have done all that to awaken Sasuke's MS since he made Sasuke hate him his whole life. Itachi was a good guy he didnt want Sasuke to turn around and attack Konoha.
And yet Itachi accounted for all of these things, and Madara makes it clear that Itachi died to give Sasuke Mangekyou Sharingan. We also don't know...that Sasuke NEEDED to end up loving Itachi in order to awaken the power...since all that's stated is that it needs to be the person closest to him...which could be made valid through emotions that are negative rather than positive, for all we know. And who's to say...Sasuke didn't feel a tinge of regret for having to kill his own brother anyway? The whole thing was...just a mess.
Leaking little secrets that didnt have no big effect on Akatsuki? Yeah those are minor insignificance's compared to Itachi's overall help to the group itself. Its all about which outweighs the other and Madara obviously seen that Itachi's help outweighed Itachi leaking a few minor secrets. Also gaining Sasuke in turn.
All your baseless opinion. We don't know what these secrets were or how significant they were.
Nope he also helped with
1.Bringing Sasuke to Madara
2.Slowing down team Kakashi from saving Gara
3.Helping in the capture of the 4 tailed Bijuu
4.Gathering info for Akatsuki
5. and helping with the extraction.
All of those especially the first one are the big counters that outweighed Itachi leaking a little info that Madara seen and took advantage of.
Again, mostly just your opinion or interpretation.
1. This was against Itachi's wishes, completely.
2. He arguably threw that fight to let them pass, hence his smile.
3. He didn't help; Kisame fought it alone.
4. We don't know what info this was or whether or not he gave them any missinformation along with it.
5. Again, this is the only truly morally ambiguous issue with Itachi.
Also dont forget that Madara hid things from Itachi also like you said, meaning he possibly hid the major things from Itachi since he knew Itachi was a spy, so he didnt tell Itachi the major stuff and only gave Itachi Insignificant information to be leaked.
This is all just speculation. Kishimoto implies it in such a way that we're supposed to give Itachi a little more credit than that; the situation was essentially Itachi and Madara with guns pointed at eachothers' heads.
He helped in the 4 tails capture.
No, no, and no. Kisame stated he fought it alone.
And that smiling can be taken more than one way. To me it showed that the whole time he was merely playing with them and for them to have defeated him and thought they accomplished something in there lifes he thought the idea of that was funny.
He doesn't typically smile over stuff like that. He usually smiles when he's hinting at something...like when he smiled at Naruto for vowing to save Sasuke AND the village...or when he smiled at Sasuke when he mentioned that Itachi wasn't alone during the Uchiha massacre. It's Itachi's...telltale way of saying "Exacta!" It may not specifically be the case here, but it is the most obvious implication.
Itachi would not...smile at an act of futility on their part. Just wouldn't be in-character for him, especially the way Kishi portrayed it.
And the more logical for that smile is that it was only thrown in as plot. Like when Naruto hit him with a suped up Rasengan the author showed the smile to show that something wasnt right about the situation. That smile had no role on the story and how Itachi thought.
Actually, that's EXACTLY why it had a role; it was implying that something was up, and Naruto even bothered to question it afterwards. From a literary standpoint, that's what you'd call a "plant." No, not the kind with leaves on it. The kind that is meant to hint at something in the future, like in this case, the revelation that Itachi was actually on their side.
Of course he threw it. He was only slowing team Kakashi down from saving Gara. That was the whole purpose. He probably knew his and Kisame's shouten wouldnt win but was only to slow the group down.
So he threw the fight and made it look like a believable loss...instead of having his Shouten fight until they killed it on their own. That was the best he could do. He couldn't just...have it give up...or trip over its own feet and land on Kakashi's Raikiri. That would be too obvious.
How so? Madara still got Sasuke.
Madara's having a little difficulty controlling Sasuke, in case you haven't noticed; things aren't going quite his way.
And it's pretty obvious that Naruto's eventually going to save Sasuke as per Itachi's wishes, so why even bother with this point? Madara is only "winning" for the time being. It ain't over.
:lmao: well Im not hoping for that but I am hoping for him to come out hella stonger and a power to be reckoned with for our heroine to have to face down and defeat xD lol
If he doesn't...I will be pissed. He's too epic not to...and plus, there's really no other way he can compete with the current top tiers.
No, it's simply complicated, that's a fact. There's nothing simple or direct about this issue, otherwise, it would have been resolved already.
xD an oxymoron lol simply complicated :lmao:. But its not resolved because people like you looking for any reason to hype Itachi more than what he is keeps making it more complicating.
And yet Itachi accounted for all of these things, and Madara makes it clear that Itachi died to give Sasuke Mangekyou Sharingan
1.Yes Itachi accounted for it, but he didnt want Sasuke to meet Madara. If Sasuke wouldnt have met Madara he wouldnt have got MS. So umm yeah ;)
2.Madara may or may not be lying to Sasuke to manipulate him so he will help him.
that Sasuke NEEDED to end up loving Itachi in order to awaken the power...since all that's stated is that it needs to be the person closest to him...which could be made valid through emotions that are negative rather than positive, for all we know. And who's to say...Sasuke didn't feel a tinge of regret for having to kill his own brother anyway? The whole thing was...just a mess.
Because its been stated to be a best friend that has to die more than once. Also Itachi had Sasuke hate him thats what he wanted. Itachi didnt want Madara to confront Sasuke so he set up a way to try and prevent it. Madara is the reason Sasuke got MS for making Sasuke feel like he killed a best friend.
All your baseless opinion. We don't know what these secrets were or how significant they were.
So is everything you brought up only mine makes more sense. Point is they had to be significant since Madara addressed them as secrets that could have beat himself. Those are very significant secrets regardless how you look at it.
Again, mostly just your opinion or interpretation.
Same to you
1. This was against Itachi's wishes, completely.
2. He arguably threw that fight to let them pass, hence his smile.
3. He didn't help; Kisame fought it alone.
4. We don't know what info this was or whether or not he gave them any missinformation along with it.
5. Again, this is the only truly morally ambiguous issue with Itachi.
1.Exactly. They were against Itachi's wishes completely so he set up a way to avoid that. But Madara outsmarted him and got Sasuke regardless. Case closed.
2. Stop bringing up a pointless smile. It was to show it was a fake Itachi at that moment. He couldnt win against the group he was only use to slow them down which he did. Case closed.
3.He was there as precaution he would have helped. If not he would have stopped Kisame which he damn sure didnt do that so he was helping Madara regardless. Case closed.
4.Madara said Itachi didnt know some things or Itachi would have beat Madara. Madara said that himself. Case closed.
5.Yet another thing he helped for Madara.
This is all just speculation. Kishimoto implies it in such a way that we're supposed to give Itachi a little more credit than that; the situation was essentially Itachi and Madara with guns pointed at eachothers' heads.
No :lmao: Kishimoto doesnt imply anything just because you say so. Madara is clearly the smarter. And its not just speculation you said yourself Madara hid things from Itachi. He hid the parts to where Itachi's plan would have worked but it didnt which means Madara hid major things from Itachi.
No, no, and no. Kisame stated he fought it alone.
Itachi was there and would have helped if needed. If not then why didnt he stop Kisame himself? He could have beat Kisame and covered it up by planning with the 4 tails. But he stood on watching and let Kisame take out the 4 tails.
He doesn't typically smile over stuff like that.
It was a fake Itachi. The smile was to portray that it was a fake Itachi before it was actually revealed it was a fake Itachi thats all. See your making things more complicating than what they are and heres one part especially. You over complicate things that are obvious :facepalm:
He usually smiles when he's hinting at something
He did. He hinted he was a fake Itachi at that moment. Since we didnt know he was fake, he smiled hinting he was a fake before it was revealed.
like when he smiled at Naruto for vowing to save Sasuke AND the village...or when he smiled at Sasuke when he mentioned that Itachi wasn't alone during the Uchiha massacre. It's Itachi's...telltale way of saying "Exacta!" It may not specifically be the case here, but it is the most obvious implication.
Again your over complications to a smile that was just to show it was a fake Itachi.
Itachi would not...smile at an act of futility on their part. Just wouldn't be in-character for him, especially the way Kishi portrayed it.
Your also not Kishi to say why he made him do something. And he did smile to hint something. He smiled to hint he was a fake Itachi.
Actually, that's EXACTLY why it had a role; it was implying that something was up, and Naruto even bothered to question it afterwards. From a literary standpoint, that's what you'd call a "plant." No, not the kind with leaves on it. The kind that is meant to hint at something in the future, like in this case, the revelation that Itachi was actually on their side.
Yeah like it was a fake Itachi. And it was revealed at the end of the chapter that he was fake. End of role with the smile.
So he threw the fight and made it look like a believable loss...instead of having his Shouten fight until they killed it on their own.
He slowed down team Kakashi right? Thats all he had to do. Thats it. Thats all. No more.
Madara's having a little difficulty controlling Sasuke, in case you haven't noticed; things aren't going quite his way.
Oh really?
1. Sasuke went to the Kage summit and fought with all the Kages
2. Sasuke awakened his Susanoo
3. Sasuke went to capture the 8 tails like Madara told him to
Things seem to be going pretty smoothly for Madara with Sasuke. He didnt act unimpressed when he went to save Sasuke from the Kage summit.
And it's pretty obvious that Naruto's eventually going to save Sasuke as per Itachi's wishes,
Yes an extra precaution he took in case what he did before didnt stop Madara from getting to Sasuke.
If he doesn't...I will be pissed. He's too epic not to...and plus, there's really no other way he can compete with the current top tiers.
Agreed here so far
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