Jiriaya vs. Younger Itachi (Conditions)

[Raikage's left hand]

But there just so damn pretty :lol:

I know they're dead sexy.

:
However your link proved something else. Sasuke coudlnt predict the kyubis movements cause it was controlled by another source. The natural enrgy that is released from jiriya doesnt have a mind of its own like Kyubi chakra

It didn't have to do with it beign controlled by another source. He just couldn't predict it because it moved differently. Jiraiya's attacks with natural energy would work the same way and extend his attack range.

[Smiley]

Sharingan's pre-cognition works by watching muscle movement of an object. That's why Sasuke couldn't predict Ichibi Naruto's chakra waves.

Kawazu Kumite, assuming that Jiraiya has it, is the only way I see Jiraiya potentially defeating Itachi. That's assuming Sharingan can't see natural energy though.

So Muffin, other than pissing on it, what does Jiraiya do about Amaterasu? What about Itachi's initial genjutsu while he's still in base mode? That's right, he gonna do nothin', he gonna die.

[Raikage's left hand]

Sharingan's pre-cognition works by watching muscle movement of an object. That's why Sasuke couldn't predict Ichibi Naruto's chakra waves.

Kawazu Kumite, assuming that Jiraiya has it, is the only way I see Jiraiya potentially defeating Itachi. That's assuming Sharingan can't see natural energy though.

So Muffin, other than pissing on it, what does Jiraiya do about Amaterasu? What about Itachi's initial genjutsu while he's still in base mode? That's right, he gonna do nothin', he gonna die.

Defeat Itachi before Amaterasu comes out. Kill him while he begins the prep time by getting in close quarters and destroying Itachi physically. Deep fryer while Itachi prepares would also be a viable counter.

Initial Genjutsu is broken with summons and Jiraiya going straight into Sage mode.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Defeat Itachi before Amaterasu comes out. Kill him while he begins the prep time by getting in close quarters and destroying Itachi physically. Deep fryer while Itachi prepares would also be a viable counter.

Initial Genjutsu is broken with summons and Jiraiya going straight into Sage mode.

You cant beat a sharingan user that easily. The sharingan is used mainly as a counter for taijutsu and it inhances reflexes and speed and stuff

[Raikage's left hand]

You cant beat a sharingan user that easily. The sharingan is used mainly as a counter for taijutsu and it inhances reflexes and speed and stuff

I will simply summarize my arguement into the following point: No.

[Smiley]

Defeat Itachi before Amaterasu comes out. Kill him while he begins the prep time by getting in close quarters and destroying Itachi physically. Deep fryer while Itachi prepares would also be a viable counter.

Initial Genjutsu is broken with summons and Jiraiya going straight into Sage mode.

So Itachi won't have the time to "prep" Amaterasu (a technique that doesn't even require preparation) as opposed to Jiraiya standing still and gathering energy for Sennin Mode for some time? To be honest, I don't see how that's plausible. Jiraiya needs a concrete Amaterasu counter if he wants to win this. Something like Snake Bulimia.

Wait, you said Itachi was faster than Jiraiya right? So who's going to be faster: Itachi blinking or pointing his finger, or Jiraiya taking some of his blood, sticking his hand to the ground and summoning?

[Raikage's left hand]

So Itachi won't have the time to "prep" Amaterasu (a technique that doesn't even require preparation) as opposed to Jiraiya standing still and gathering energy for Sennin Mode for some time? To be honest, I don't see how that's plausible. Jiraiya needs a concrete Amaterasu counter if he wants to win this. Something like Snake Bulimia.

Wait, you said Itachi was faster than Jiraiya right? So who's going to be faster: Itachi blinking or pointing his finger, or Jiraiya taking some of his blood, sticking his hand to the ground and summoning?

OOC for Itachi to use Amaterasu right off the bat.

Amaterasu requires plenty of prep time. It took Itachi an entire chapter to use Amaterasu and in that time Sasuke had him on the ropes and almost killed him. Deep fryer or needle barrage would be enough to kill Itachi once he begins taking time out to begin an entire series of seals.

I said Itachi was faster, but lacks the stamina amounts to keep it up for too long. The difference between them wouldn't be too great anyway imo. Once Jiraiya begins drawing natural energy he would enter a state of natural genjutsu immunity and not need to worry about any of Itachi's Taijutsu.

[Smiley]

OOC for Itachi to use Amaterasu right off the bat.

Amaterasu requires plenty of prep time. It took Itachi an entire chapter to use Amaterasu and in that time Sasuke had him on the ropes and almost killed him. Deep fryer or needle barrage would be enough to kill Itachi once he begins taking time out to begin an entire series of seals.

I said Itachi was faster, but lacks the stamina amounts to keep it up for too long. The difference between them wouldn't be too great anyway imo. Once Jiraiya begins drawing natural energy he would enter a state of natural genjutsu immunity and not need to worry about any of Itachi's Taijutsu.

I never said that he would do it. But you're suggesting that Itachi won't have the time for Amaterasu, whereas Jiraiya will have the time for Sennin Mode, which requires even more preparation time (Amaterasu arguably not even requiring any)?

First off, the whole chapter? This (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/02/) is the only point in the whole chapter where Itachi is shown doing some hand seals. After Sasuke threw the Shuriken at him, the hand seals were interrupted and the rest of the chapter consists of Itachi dodging Sasuke's attacks, with his Mangekyou Sharingan turned off. Even if we agree that the hand seals were necessary for Amaterasu (when there is nothing to suggest that - even Zetsu questioned his initial statement after he saw Itachi's hand seals), that's the only point in the whole chapter where he is supposedly "preparing" Amaterasu. He later instantaneously activates it during the Katon struggle. Sasuke instantly activates it against Madara and Killer Bee. Is Jiraiya going to try to stop Itachi every time he wants to execute a jutsu? That's rather improbable.

I'm talking about genjutsu. Itachi started almost every single fight in the manga with his basic genjutsu. Even if Jiraiya immediately proceeds to summoning as soon as the fight starts (which would be OOC), who would be faster: Itachi making an eye contact or pointing a finger, or Jiraiya taking his own blood and sticking his hand to the ground? Assuming that Itachi is faster, I think the answer is obvious.

[Nikushimi]

You've piqued my interest in this topic again i couldn't leave it be :p

Although surely you understand that you must now suffer the consequences of your actions.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2503/diovssakura2.jpg

The chakra flow in the victims head is being controlled by the opponent. It was stated that all that is required is a secondary source to break the genjutsu. It was flat out stated all you need is an injection of chakra from an ally and that it didn't even have to be molded, controlled or anything.

It needs to be injected with the intent to disrupt the flow. If an external source was all it took to break Genjutsu, then Sennin Jiraiya's chakra flow would constantly be erratic and he'd be unable to perform his own Jutsu. Just shoving chakra into someone isn't going to cut it- chakra flows in small, nerve-like networks, so unless you specifically target those networks you're not even tapping into the chakra flow at all.

Also, natural energy isn't chakra.

Fukasaku and Shima are fused to Jiraiya's shoulders and one of the three is always drawing natural energy. Even instantaneous Genjutsu like Tsukiyomi would be instantly dispelled.

Tsukuyomi occurs independent of real-world time. Disrupted chakra flow wouldn't effect it because it would be over by the time there was any variance in the flow.

Well if Jiraiya were in the process of preparing sage mode he would likely summon a giant toad and sit atop it like the Pein battle. Genjutsu wouldn't be viable on Jiraiya seeing as he's drawing chakra constantly. The toad genjutsu could be broken by Jiraiya (which seems pretty likely considering he created a barrier just by clicking his heels together).

If Genjutsu could be broken simply by building chakra then every damn character in this series would be able to break Genjutsu. We saw that even careful chakra manipulation in a purposeful Genjutsu counter isn't always enough when Naruto failed to break the Utakata Genjutsu cast by Itachi's Shouten. Genjutsu isn't anywhere near as fragile as you make it out to be.

Furthermore, Jiraiya didn't resort to Sennin Moodo immediately when he fought Pain (no more immediate than Itachi resorted to Tsukuyomi on Kakashi), and the only reason he did it as soon as he did was because he acknowledged that he was fighting the Akatsuki Leader and couldn't afford to screw around. We saw Jiraiya confront Itachi already, he posed, gave a loud speech, and then stood there doing nothing while Itachi beat up Sasuke. Then when Itachi was distracted, he used his "inescapable" Jutsu, which Itachi escaped. Didn't really even think of using Sennin Moodo, and Itachi had already used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. So as far as being IC goes, Itachi is much more likely to use Mangekyou Sharingan first, before Jiraiya attempts to go into Sennin Moodo.

We're talking about a form that laughs off falling off a cliff onto jagged rocks. Sasuke's curse seal form has shown to be excessively durable but i don't see a major difference between Sage mode and Curse seal two durability-wise. You could argue either way that one is far durable than the other. I would say that there probably is a difference but not a major one.

...Did you click the link I just posted? What Sasuke got hit with packs far more of a punch than simply falling off a cliff onto jagged rocks.

He used the barrier when he fought the 6 paths.

Because Chikushodou was inside an invisible summon. It's a detection barrier.

Well i agree that Itachi's speed does give him an advantage although i would say he would need ot use is sparingly, considering his limited chakra reserves.

Physical attributes draw from Stamina directly, not chakra. Just for technicality's sake. But it's hardly a drain for him to simply dodge around, as he does a lot of that.

I disagree with it requiring no prep time. Itachi was preparing it for an entire chapter. The only time we've ever seen Itachi use it to full effect and he caught a shuriken to the leg and nearly got completely overwhelmed before he could get it out. Hell, should Jiraiya used the deep fryer attack against him, Itachi would have to try and run or be boiled alive.

Smiley is correct, Itachi's hand-seals were interrupted and there is no evidence whatsoever to connect them with the Amaterasu that followed much later at the end of that chapter. We've also seen Amaterasu used before and it has never been shown to require seals or prep of any sort.

As for Senpou: Gouemon, yes, Itachi would most likely run from it, although I doubt Jiraiya would live long enough to use it anyway. Getting into Sennin Moodo alone would require that Itachi hadn't been dead-set on killing him from the start, since base Jiraiya is vulnerable to almost every little trick Itachi can pull out of his cloak. 99% of the time I would expect base Jiraiya to have already been defeated with Genjutsu, the other 1% of the time I would expect Itachi to resort to Amaterasu as soon as he sees Jiraiya's enhanced form and incinerate him at a glance.

Sif. Jiraiya completely figured out the Rinnegan mid battle with no prep time. Orochimaru was also one to never worry about physical injury. Hell the guy stabbed himself because he was yawning.

I'm not saying Jiraiya isn't smart, I'm just saying he's foolish and just as arrogant as Orochimaru (if not more-so). As for Orochimaru, he may be a bit casual with taking damage, but he doesn't go out of his way to do so (he DOES dodge), and he's clearly surprised when he first gets skewered with the Totsuka no Tsurugi (he doesn't try laughing it off until AFTER he realizes he's been hit with it).

Also, it wasn't Jiraiya who figured out the Rinnegan. It was Fukasaku. If it weren't for Jiraiya's databook stat giving him a 4.5 in Intelligence I would still be calling him an idiot, but, that's the problem with fans trying to interpret the manga on their own. If I wanted to, I'd be a huge bastard and press you to show me proof that Jiraiya is intelligent, knowing that you aren't allowed to use the databooks as evidence, but, I won't do that, because I'm a good boy.

Dodge it how? It covers a wide area and is extremely fast. A clone wouldn't protect Itachi's real body.

Sakura and Chiyo somehow dodged Sasori's needle spray. Itachi would weave in and out of the needles Matrix-style, or simply jump over it. The clone thing wasn't to shield him, it was so he could hide in the smoke while a clone goes out and becomes cannon fodder for Jiraiya's attack. Then while Jiraiya is stuck in a hairy situation, Itachi can light him up like an Amaterasu bonfire.

Itachi would most likely continue his usual fighting style like he did against Sasuke second curse seal form imo.

Itachi was holding back against Sasuke in order to exhaust him. A better example of how Itachi fights IC is when he fights guys like Kakashi, Orochimaru, and Deidara (although he held back on Kakashi since he didn't want to hurt him, so Orochimaru and Deidara are more accurate examples). Itachi knows that he's fighting a Sannin, so he already knows not to hold back or let his guard down. If he actually lets Jiraiya live long enough to show some of his moves, or even get into Sennin Moodo, then Itachi is definitely going to go for the kill with Mangekyou Sharingan.

Oh it's on now. We will eventually reach a conclusion, such as Jiraiya's obvious superiority.

If you added in Orochimaru and Tsunade on Jiraiya's team then I would agree with you that Itachi would only win with moderate difficulty rather than extreme ease. http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1428/itachizaru3.jpg

I drew a comic on how this fight would go down. Would you like to see it? ^_____^

[Raikage's left hand]

Although surely you understand that you must now suffer the consequences of your actions.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/2503/diovssakura2.jpg

Bring it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irp8CNj9qBI)

It needs to be injected with the intent to disrupt the flow. If an external source was all it took to break Genjutsu, then Sennin Jiraiya's chakra flow would constantly be erratic and he'd be unable to perform his own Jutsu. Just shoving chakra into someone isn't going to cut it- chakra flows in small, nerve-like networks, so unless you specifically target those networks you're not even tapping into the chakra flow at all.

Also, natural energy isn't chakra.

Jiraiya's chakra flow was erratic. He began turning into a toad mid-battle. It doesn't require all that jazz. All that is required is a tap in the shoulder from an ally that disrupts the irregular chakra flow.

Natural energy = chakra. Otherwise Sasuke wouldn't have been able to manipulate the natural into chakra to use for an attack.

Tsukuyomi occurs independent of real-world time. Disrupted chakra flow wouldn't effect it because it would be over by the time there was any variance in the flow.

Tsukiyomi still must play by the rules of all other Genjutsu until proven otherwise. Drawing in chakra at a constant rate rules out even Tsukiyomi.

If Genjutsu could be broken simply by building chakra then every damn character in this series would be able to break Genjutsu. We saw that even careful chakra manipulation in a purposeful Genjutsu counter isn't always enough when Naruto failed to break the Utakata Genjutsu cast by Itachi's Shouten. Genjutsu isn't anywhere near as fragile as you make it out to be.

Well there's a reason there are only like four characters who know how to draw in Natural energy. It's really, really fucking hard to do. That's why no one else did it. Orochimaru was going to break Itachi's Genjutsu by simply building chakra too. Until his hand was cut off. Naruto couldn't break it because he couldn't concentrate and was still pretty shit tier at chakra control.


Furthermore, Jiraiya didn't resort to Sennin Moodo immediately when he fought Pain (no more immediate than Itachi resorted to Tsukuyomi on Kakashi), and the only reason he did it as soon as he did was because he acknowledged that he was fighting the Akatsuki Leader and couldn't afford to screw around. We saw Jiraiya confront Itachi already, he posed, gave a loud speech, and then stood there doing nothing while Itachi beat up Sasuke. Then when Itachi was distracted, he used his "inescapable" Jutsu, which Itachi escaped. Didn't really even think of using Sennin Moodo, and Itachi had already used Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu. So as far as being IC goes, Itachi is much more likely to use Mangekyou Sharingan first, before Jiraiya attempts to go into Sennin Moodo.

He defended himself with a technique then went straight into hermit mode summoning something that would buy him the required time. Unless Itachi blitz right up to him in which case he would be utterly overwhelmed.

He was in close quarters combat. He used a technique that could have killed both Kisame and Itachi had they not gotten the hell out of there. We've seen Itachi fight in character. He uses everything except Mangekyo straight away. He didn't even bother using any genjutsu against Kakashi.

...Did you click the link I just posted? What Sasuke got hit with packs far more of a punch than simply falling off a cliff onto jagged rocks.

Katon are the most filler moves in the entire manga. No one's ever been injured by one. Claiming they pack any punch at all is laughable.

As far as durability curse seal 2 and sage mode are about even.

Because Chikushodou was inside an invisible summon. It's a detection barrier.

He used it while fighting all six path's, it detects any and all movement.

Physical attributes draw from Stamina directly, not chakra. Just for technicality's sake. But it's hardly a drain for him to simply dodge around, as he does a lot of that.

Same difference.

Smiley is correct, Itachi's hand-seals were interrupted and there is no evidence whatsoever to connect them with the Amaterasu that followed much later at the end of that chapter. We've also seen Amaterasu used before and it has never been shown to require seals or prep of any sort.

As for Senpou: Gouemon, yes, Itachi would most likely run from it, although I doubt Jiraiya would live long enough to use it anyway. Getting into Sennin Moodo alone would require that Itachi hadn't been dead-set on killing him from the start, since base Jiraiya is vulnerable to almost every little trick Itachi can pull out of his cloak. 99% of the time I would expect base Jiraiya to have already been defeated with Genjutsu, the other 1% of the time I would expect Itachi to resort to Amaterasu as soon as he sees Jiraiya's enhanced form and incinerate him at a glance.


Itachi's preparation began here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/17/) It took almost an entire chapter for Amaterasu to come out. It requires building up a shit load of chakra. Which is why the hand seals were necessary. It's the only time Itachi's Amaterasu has been shown in full effect and that time it required plenty of prep time.

And i can picture Jiraiya summoning a toad to help buy him time to get into sage mode. Once Jiraiya begins drawing natural energy Itachi's genjutsu is no longer an option. Once he's entered into sage mode he would either force Itachi into close combat or just straight up kill him with ninjutsu.

I'm not saying Jiraiya isn't smart, I'm just saying he's foolish and just as arrogant as Orochimaru (if not more-so). As for Orochimaru, he may be a bit casual with taking damage, but he doesn't go out of his way to do so (he DOES dodge), and he's clearly surprised when he first gets skewered with the Totsuka no Tsurugi (he doesn't try laughing it off until AFTER he realizes he's been hit with it).

Also, it wasn't Jiraiya who figured out the Rinnegan. It was Fukasaku. If it weren't for Jiraiya's databook stat giving him a 4.5 in Intelligence I would still be calling him an idiot, but, that's the problem with fans trying to interpret the manga on their own. If I wanted to, I'd be a huge bastard and press you to show me proof that Jiraiya is intelligent, knowing that you aren't allowed to use the databooks as evidence, but, I won't do that, because I'm a good boy.

What..? Orochimaru did begin to laugh once he was stabbed by Susanoo he stopped once he realized he was being sealed away.

Sure you could try to argue that Jiraiya isn't smart. But I'd laugh and wouldn't bother with it because that would be stupid.

Sakura and Chiyo somehow dodged Sasori's needle spray. Itachi would weave in and out of the needles Matrix-style, or simply jump over it. The clone thing wasn't to shield him, it was so he could hide in the smoke while a clone goes out and becomes cannon fodder for Jiraiya's attack. Then while Jiraiya is stuck in a hairy situation, Itachi can light him up like an Amaterasu bonfire.

They were trained specifically to dodge. Itachi never was. He can't do something he was never trained to do. There's no way he would dodge the needles. He won't be able to hide or fool Jiraiya with a feint once Jiraiya's barrier is up either. Jiraiya will still detect Itachi's movements whereas Itachi will have no way to tell which is either the toad or Jiraiya before he uses the attack.

Itachi was holding back against Sasuke in order to exhaust him. A better example of how Itachi fights IC is when he fights guys like Kakashi, Orochimaru, and Deidara (although he held back on Kakashi since he didn't want to hurt him, so Orochimaru and Deidara are more accurate examples). Itachi knows that he's fighting a Sannin, so he already knows not to hold back or let his guard down. If he actually lets Jiraiya live long enough to show some of his moves, or even get into Sennin Moodo, then Itachi is definitely going to go for the kill with Mangekyou Sharingan.

Genjutsu isn't viable against someone who uses summons in their fighting style like Jiraiya does. Jiraiya knows he fighting a sharingan user and isn't exactly goign to not summon back up or not go all out.

If you added in Orochimaru and Tsunade on Jiraiya's team then I would agree with you that Itachi would only win with moderate difficulty rather than extreme ease. http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/1428/itachizaru3.jpg

I drew a comic on how this fight would go down. Would you like to see it? ^_____^

Adding in Orochimaru and Tsunade just wouldn't be fair to poor Itachi. Jiraiya can beat him alone :^^:

Yes i would like to see your comic pl0x.

[Nikushimi]

Bring it. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irp8CNj9qBI)

Queen. <3

I see your Bohemian Rhapsody and raise you:

This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpwR90iADZY&feature=channel_page)

Jiraiya's chakra flow was erratic. He began turning into a toad mid-battle. It doesn't require all that jazz. All that is required is a tap in the shoulder from an ally that disrupts the irregular chakra flow.

Turning into a toad doesn't mean it's erratic, it means it's imbalanced, meaning there is more natural energy than necessary.

Natural energy = chakra. Otherwise Sasuke wouldn't have been able to manipulate the natural into chakra to use for an attack.

Wut to the power of ten? Sasuke is a Sennin now? When did this happen?

Natural energy is just a third component of chakra that makes Sennin chakra, just like how spiritual and physical energies make up regular chakra, but independently are not chakra. Like how Sodium and Chloride are both poisonous to human beings but combine to form yummy salt.

Tsukiyomi still must play by the rules of all other Genjutsu until proven otherwise. Drawing in chakra at a constant rate rules out even Tsukiyomi.

Doesn't work that way, because Tsukuyomi DOESN'T play by the rules of other Genjutsu. Kakashi even stated that the partner method of injecting chakra wouldn't work because there is simply no time in the real world that the Genjutsu takes place, it just happens in an instant and the full effects are dealt. Itachi himself pretty clearly stated that only someone with Sharingan AND the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai could defeat Tsukuyomi, and this has remained a canon fact.

Well there's a reason there are only like four characters who know how to draw in Natural energy. It's really, really fucking hard to do. That's why no one else did it. Orochimaru was going to break Itachi's Genjutsu by simply building chakra too. Until his hand was cut off. Naruto couldn't break it because he couldn't concentrate and was still pretty shit tier at chakra control.

What Orochimaru was going to do was unknown; he has shown other techniques that he initiates with that seal, such as the Ninjutsu Fuuton: Daitoppa and even Edo Tensei. It might possibly have been him attempting to use Fushi Tensei and take Itachi's body.

As for Naruto, give him some credit here; he had plenty of time to train with Jiraiya, and this is the same kid that perfected Minato's own technique which he himself couldn't perfect, in only a week, and who eventually perfected Sennin Moodo, which Jiraiya himself couldn't do. Naruto lost simply because Itachi's a Genjutsu monster.

He defended himself with a technique then went straight into hermit mode summoning something that would buy him the required time. Unless Itachi blitz right up to him in which case he would be utterly overwhelmed.

Jiraiya first dodged around and even used Ranji Shigami to attempt to subdue Chikushodou. Then he listened to his crappy godspeech for a chapter before actually summoning Gamaken, and it wasn't until after Chikushodou drew out his own Pokemon that Jiraiya decided it was time for Kermit Mode. By this point, Jiraiya would have been caught in Genjutsu already. It's been shown that giving Itachi an inch is basically the same as handing him the victory. It's a patently bad idea.

He was in close quarters combat. He used a technique that could have killed both Kisame and Itachi had they not gotten the hell out of there. We've seen Itachi fight in character. He uses everything except Mangekyo straight away. He didn't even bother using any genjutsu against Kakashi.

He needed Tsukuyomi to put Kakashi down without wasting any time. As far as Ninpou: Gamaguchi Shibari is concerned, yes, it could have killed Itachi and Kisame if they simply did nothing. But they were trapped in a confined space, inside the Jutsu, so what do you expect? They'd be in the same amount of danger if a C-Rank Katon was fired down that hallway towards them. They had nowhere to go. But ultimately they DID escape, so big deal. And the technique wasn't close-quarters anyway, they were at least at mid-range, with Itachi at one end of the hallway and Jiraiya at the other. And Itachi and Kisame were both conveniently occupied at the time.

Katon are the most filler moves in the entire manga. No one's ever been injured by one. Claiming they pack any punch at all is laughable.

I don't understand why this argument is so popular. You're basically arguing that a massive, raging ball of fire with heat probably in the thousands of degrees centigrade, couldn't hurt someone, simply because it never has. By that same logic, most of Jiraiya's arsenal is completely useless, then. If not all of it.

As far as durability curse seal 2 and sage mode are about even.

I supplied evidence to support my claim, I would appreciate it if you returned the favor.

He used it while fighting all six path's, it detects any and all movement.

He only used it against Chikushodou. If you're referring to the "barrier" that he used to end up trapping and killing Chikushodou, that was Kekkai: Gama Hyourou, a completely different technique altogether.

Itachi's preparation began here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/388/17/) It took almost an entire chapter for Amaterasu to come out. It requires building up a shit load of chakra. Which is why the hand seals were necessary. It's the only time Itachi's Amaterasu has been shown in full effect and that time it required plenty of prep time.

Show me evidence that connects Itachi's hand-seals to Amaterasu. Because they were interrupted, and Itachi has never had to use them when performing Amaterasu on other occasions. The second one he used on Sasuke was just as big as if not bigger than the first, so I'm not quite sure what you are referring to as "full effect."

And i can picture Jiraiya summoning a toad to help buy him time to get into sage mode. Once Jiraiya begins drawing natural energy Itachi's genjutsu is no longer an option. Once he's entered into sage mode he would either force Itachi into close combat or just straight up kill him with ninjutsu.

Drawing in natural energy isn't enough to break Genjutsu, as I already said. Even deliberate Genjutsu counters like the one Naruto used didn't work. Jiraiya simply is not going to have time to summon before Itachi looks him in the eye and stakes him to the ground. And if Itachi DOES dick around enough for Jiraiya to get into Sennin Moodo, for whatever reason, Itachi just lights him up with Amaterasu or takes him out with Tsukuyomi if they make eye-contact.

What..? Orochimaru did begin to laugh once he was stabbed by Susanoo he stopped once he realized he was being sealed away.

Not at first. He hadn't even completed his sentence and he was surprised when it actually entered him. It was after he assessed the situation that he started trying to play it off like it was no big deal.

Sure you could try to argue that Jiraiya isn't smart. But I'd laugh and wouldn't bother with it because that would be stupid.

Not really. Jiraiya has no feats in the manga to show that he is smart. He's just old.

They were trained specifically to dodge. Itachi never was. He can't do something he was never trained to do. There's no way he would dodge the needles. He won't be able to hide or fool Jiraiya with a feint once Jiraiya's barrier is up either. Jiraiya will still detect Itachi's movements whereas Itachi will have no way to tell which is either the toad or Jiraiya before he uses the attack.

Chiyo was never specifically trained to dodge, Sakura was, and she only succeeded because Chiyo was controlling her. Itachi has Sharingan, so training isn't really necessary, he's pro at dodging just because. It's also grossly improbable how Jiraiya would do all these things you claim and let them fall into perfect alignment, while Itachi WOULDN'T have used Amaterasu by this point. Basically, Jiraiya has no reason to be using the barrier, so that's out. At best Jiraiya might take out a clone before getting hit with Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi.

Genjutsu isn't viable against someone who uses summons in their fighting style like Jiraiya does. Jiraiya knows he fighting a sharingan user and isn't exactly goign to not summon back up or not go all out.

I didn't know Jiraiya could clap his hands together faster than Itachi could cast Genjutsu by glancing. I also didn't know that Jiraiya immediately resorts to Kuchiyose at the start of the fight all of the time when facing opponents. Oh, wait. He doesn't. Even when he summoned the toad to block Kisame's swing, he de-summoned it when he was about to face Itachi. Smooth move, ex-lax.

Adding in Orochimaru and Tsunade just wouldn't be fair to poor Itachi. Jiraiya can beat him alone :^^:

After seeing Itachi pwn Orochimaru and Tsunade with extreme ease, Jiraiya would probably just give up the fight. >_>

Yes i would like to see your comic pl0x.

I based it off the Gai one. Viewers beware, you're in for a scare:



http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/itachivsjiraiya.jpg



I just need someone to clean it up and colorize it. http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4017/itachiblindzaru.gif

[Raikage's left hand]

Queen. <3

I see your Bohemian Rhapsody and raise you:

This. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpwR90iADZY&feature=channel_page)

Superior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqEYuzD5RcE)

Turning into a toad doesn't mean it's erratic, it means it's imbalanced, meaning there is more natural energy than necessary.

I believe it does because that's what erratic means.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8536/1240818827202.png

Wut to the power of ten? Sasuke is a Sennin now? When did this happen?

Natural energy is just a third component of chakra that makes Sennin chakra, just like how spiritual and physical energies make up regular chakra, but independently are not chakra. Like how Sodium and Chloride are both poisonous to human beings but combine to form yummy salt.

Sasuke used natural energy to use for Kirin when he had none of his own.

Right and it's been stated that natural energy is a lot more potent than spiritual and physical energy. Jiraiya is absorbing at a constant rate, Itachi trying to manipulate chakra inside Jiraiya's head when he's constantly and continually adding new energy to his chakra just isn't going to work.

Doesn't work that way, because Tsukuyomi DOESN'T play by the rules of other Genjutsu. Kakashi even stated that the partner method of injecting chakra wouldn't work because there is simply no time in the real world that the Genjutsu takes place, it just happens in an instant and the full effects are dealt. Itachi himself pretty clearly stated that only someone with Sharingan AND the Uchiha Kekkei Genkai could defeat Tsukuyomi, and this has remained a canon fact.

Tsukiyomi works like every other Genjutsu. It can be broken. It has been broken. Jiraiya will be immune to it.

What Orochimaru was going to do was unknown; he has shown other techniques that he initiates with that seal, such as the Ninjutsu Fuuton: Daitoppa and even Edo Tensei. It might possibly have been him attempting to use Fushi Tensei and take Itachi's body.

As for Naruto, give him some credit here; he had plenty of time to train with Jiraiya, and this is the same kid that perfected Minato's own technique which he himself couldn't perfect, in only a week, and who eventually perfected Sennin Moodo, which Jiraiya himself couldn't do. Naruto lost simply because Itachi's a Genjutsu monster.

People create seals to build chakra. Naruto used a seal when trying to break a genjutsu. It's pretty fair to say Orochimaru was preparing to break a genjutsu.

And for all Naruto's training he was still completely shit at Genjutsu it's the first time the guys been against Genjutsu, which is why it wrecked his shit so bad.

Jiraiya first dodged around and even used Ranji Shigami to attempt to subdue Chikushodou. Then he listened to his crappy godspeech for a chapter before actually summoning Gamaken, and it wasn't until after Chikushodou drew out his own Pokemon that Jiraiya decided it was time for Kermit Mode. By this point, Jiraiya would have been caught in Genjutsu already. It's been shown that giving Itachi an inch is basically the same as handing him the victory. It's a patently bad idea.

Itachi didn't stop Deidara from using a few attacks before he could catch him in Genjutsu/argument.

And lol @ Kermit mode.

He needed Tsukuyomi to put Kakashi down without wasting any time. As far as Ninpou: Gamaguchi Shibari is concerned, yes, it could have killed Itachi and Kisame if they simply did nothing. But they were trapped in a confined space, inside the Jutsu, so what do you expect? They'd be in the same amount of danger of a C-Rank Katon was fired down that hallway towards them. They had nowhere to go. But ultimately they DID escape, so big deal. And the technique wasn't close-quarters anyway, they were at least at mid-range, with Itachi at one end of the hallway and Jiraiya at the other. And Itachi and Kisame were both conveniently occupied at the time.

Yet he still tried his luck against Kakashi without Mangekyo and they were evenly matched. Of course it would've killed them Itachi was forced to use his absolute best ninjutsu just run away from Jiraiya what does that tell you http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9735/zarularge.jpg

I don't understand why this argument is so popular. You're basically arguing that a massive, raging ball of fire with heat probably in the thousands of degrees centigrade, couldn't hurt someone, simply because it never has. By that same logic, most of Jiraiya's arsenal is completely useless, then. If not all of it.

Well it couldn't hurt someone in sage mode. Especially considering Itachi's katon's are really shit tier.

I supplied evidence to support my claim, I would appreciate it if you returned the favor.

Nah. Jiraiya shrugging off being rammed into a wall by a raging bull weighing tons is far more impressive than not being burnt by an exhausted, half dead HIV patient.

He only used it against Chikushodou. If you're referring to the "barrier" that he used to end up trapping and killing Chikushodou, that was Kekkai: Gama Hyourou, a completely different technique altogether.

Oh well then let's just go with that then. Jiraiya can either detect and slight movement Itachi makes or just cut him in half by moving close brilliant.

Show me evidence that connects Itachi's hand-seals to Amaterasu. Because they were interrupted, and Itachi has never had to use them when performing Amaterasu on other occasions. The second one he used on Sasuke was just as big as if not bigger than the first, so I'm not quite sure what you are referring to as "full effect."

Hand seals = required depending on the amount of chakra to use for the technique. A heavily chakra exhausting technique like Amaterasu requires a lot of seals. Sasuke's didn't require the seals because he'd gotten a shitload of chakra from both Karin and android 18.

Plus there was the whole Zetsu directly connecting the two while being the commentator and all.

Drawing in natural energy isn't enough to break Genjutsu, as I already said. Even deliberate Genjutsu counters like the one Naruto used didn't work. Jiraiya simply is not going to have time to summon before Itachi looks him in the eye and stakes him to the ground. And if Itachi DOES dick around enough for Jiraiya to get into Sennin Moodo, for whatever reason, Itachi just lights him up with Amaterasu or takes him out with Tsukuyomi if they make eye-contact.

Nah.

Not at first. He hadn't even completed his sentence and he was surprised when it actually entered him. It was after he assessed the situation that he started trying to play it off like it was no big deal.

He said directly after he was stabbed that wounds like that wouldn't hurt him. Stated as fact. He has no worries at all about physical injuries.

Not really. Jiraiya has no feats in the manga to show that he is smart. He's just old.

And wise and awesome and pretty much a walking encyclopedia on pretty much anything Naruto's ever wanted to know. He's got a lot more going for him in brains than Itachi "oh I'll plan everything out and still fail" Uchiha.

Chiyo was never specifically trained to dodge, Sakura was, and she only succeeded because Chiyo was controlling her. Itachi has Sharingan, so training isn't really necessary, he's pro at dodging just because. It's also grossly improbable how Jiraiya would do all these things you claim and let them fall into perfect alignment, while Itachi WOULDN'T have used Amaterasu by this point. Basically, Jiraiya has no reason to be using the barrier, so that's out. At best Jiraiya might take out a clone before getting hit with Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi.

It was implied by Tsunade that medic shinobi are trained to dodge attacks.

Sharingan's pre-cognition works by watching muscle movement of an object.

Sharingan doesn't help against anything that doesn't actually have muscles. Sasuke couldn't predict chakra itself from moving. Itachi won't be able to see the needles and better not to mention he is like half blind. Smoke bomb + needle barrage = Guaranteed win.

I didn't know Jiraiya could clap his hands together faster than Itachi could cast Genjutsu by glancing. I also didn't know that Jiraiya immediately resorts to Kuchiyose at the start of the fight all of the time when facing opponents. Oh, wait. He doesn't. Even when he summoned the toad to block Kisame's swing, he de-summoned it when he was about to face Itachi. Smooth move, ex-lax.

He de-summoned it because he'd put up his toad stomach. If he got caught in genjutsu Itachi and Kisame would've still been killed by the walls.

After seeing Itachi get pwned by Jiraiya with extreme ease, Orochimaru and Tsunade would probably just give up the fight. >_>

Fixed for you bro.

I based it off the Gai one. Viewers beware, you're in for a scare:



http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4624/itachivsjiraiya.jpg



I just need someone to clean it up and colorize it. http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4017/itachiblindzaru.gif

That is so awesome! You drew that? It's pretty good.

I also made a comic would you like to see mine?

[Nikushimi]

Superior. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqEYuzD5RcE)

No way, that doesn't compare to the mad verses of the GT theme.

I believe it does because that's what erratic means.

http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8536/1240818827202.png

"Erratic" implies inconsistency. Jiraiya's chakra is not inconsistent, it is consistantly disproportionate; he always has more natural energy than necessary, it doesn't fluctuate.

Sasuke used natural energy to use for Kirin when he had none of his own.

No, he just heated the atmosphere to create a thunderstorm and then guided the lightning with his own faint remainder of chakra.

Right and it's been stated that natural energy is a lot more potent than spiritual and physical energy. Jiraiya is absorbing at a constant rate, Itachi trying to manipulate chakra inside Jiraiya's head when he's constantly and continually adding new energy to his chakra just isn't going to work.

First of all, when is that stated? Second, if Jiraiya's absorbing it at a constant rate, then that proves my point; his chakra flow is consistent. No reason for him having any sort of special immunity, especially since this is not canonically proven or implied.

Tsukiyomi works like every other Genjutsu. It can be broken. It has been broken. Jiraiya will be immune to it.

1. Show me another Genjutsu that works like Tsukuyomi.

2. Show me where other counters for it are stated besides being an Uchiha.

3. Show me where anyone besides an Uchiha has broken it.


Seems pretty clear-cut that Tsukuyomi hasn't deviated from what's been laid out in the canon.

People create seals to build chakra. Naruto used a seal when trying to break a genjutsu. It's pretty fair to say Orochimaru was preparing to break a genjutsu.

People build chakra to cast Jutsu as well. Forming a seal does not prove that he was trying to specifically use a Genjutsu counter.

And for all Naruto's training he was still completely shit at Genjutsu it's the first time the guys been against Genjutsu, which is why it wrecked his shit so bad.

Speculation. We don't know how many times Naruto has faced Genjutsu or how good he is by average standards. The same goes for Jiraiya. Playing the experience card doesn't work here, as neither have feats other than Naruto getting owned by the nerfed clone of the greatest Genjutsu user in the series.

Itachi didn't stop Deidara from using a few attacks before he could catch him in Genjutsu/argument.

And lol @ Kermit mode.

Itachi cast Genjutsu on Deidara immediately after challenging him...



http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8260/senninmodekermit.png



^I seriously did that right after the chapter came out...

Yet he still tried his luck against Kakashi without Mangekyo and they were evenly matched. Of course it would've killed them Itachi was forced to use his absolute best ninjutsu just run away from Jiraiya what does that tell you http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/9735/zarularge.jpg

Kakashi was having far more difficulty in that exchange than Itachi was, and concerning Jiraiya, it doesn't really matter what move Itachi used to escape, since Jiraiya possesses nothing that it wouldn't have overcome anyway.

Well it couldn't hurt someone in sage mode. Especially considering Itachi's katon's are really shit tier.

Itachi's Katons are the strongest in the series barring the combo Katon with Gamabunta and can scorch paths through solid ground.

Nah. Jiraiya shrugging off being rammed into a wall by a raging bull weighing tons is far more impressive than not being burnt by an exhausted, half dead HIV patient.

So I guess the part where Sasuke got nuked in the face and lived never happened?

Oh well then let's just go with that then. Jiraiya can either detect and slight movement Itachi makes or just cut him in half by moving close brilliant.

That's...not how it works. He drags his target into that toad gourd and brings them to an acid pond that he throws them into. He'll have to bypass Amaterasu first.

Hand seals = required depending on the amount of chakra to use for the technique. A heavily chakra exhausting technique like Amaterasu requires a lot of seals. Sasuke's didn't require the seals because he'd gotten a shitload of chakra from both Karin and android 18.

Android 16.

And Jutsu don't require more seals based on the chakra they require; Kage Bunshin requires one seal while Chidori requires three and Goukakyuu requires six. Amaterasu is a Doujutsu and doesn't require seals; you've basically admitted in Sasuke's case that all it requires is chakra ready to be used.

Plus there was the whole Zetsu directly connecting the two while being the commentator and all.

He didn't. He asked if Amaterasu was coming out. Asked. He wasn't sure.

Nah.

:/

He said directly after he was stabbed that wounds like that wouldn't hurt him. Stated as fact. He has no worries at all about physical injuries.

That's why he still dodges basic attacks, right?

And wise and awesome and pretty much a walking encyclopedia on pretty much anything Naruto's ever wanted to know. He's got a lot more going for him in brains than Itachi "oh I'll plan everything out and still fail" Uchiha.

Jiraiya is the self-admitted failure, Itachi is the one regarded by the invincible immortal as a brilliant mastermind. Itachi passed some of his own power directly on to Naruto, while Jiraiya's dying achievement was fingering an 800-year-old toad in order to relay a vague and irrelevent message. Uh...what?

It was implied by Tsunade that medic shinobi are trained to dodge attacks.

That belief doesn't necessarily have to extend beyond Konoha's borders, and even if it does, there's no guarantee that Chiyo was a medic-nin, simply because she knew the basic healing technique.

He de-summoned it because he'd put up his toad stomach. If he got caught in genjutsu Itachi and Kisame would've still been killed by the walls.

They canonically escaped that Jutsu with Amaterasu. And if Jiraiya's dead he can't guide it to attack them, so they can just walk right out. :/

Fixed for you bro.

They'd need to bypass Amaterasu first.

That is so awesome! You drew that? It's pretty good.

Who else would draw Itachi bludgeoning Jiraiya with his cock? >_>

I also made a comic would you like to see mine?

Sure, why not?

[Raikage's left hand]

No way, that doesn't compare to the mad verses of the GT theme.

Bah. The sheer adrenaline pumping theme of Z is way to chronic for GT to overcome.

"Erratic" implies inconsistency. Jiraiya's chakra is not inconsistent, it is consistantly disproportionate; he always has more natural energy than necessary, it doesn't fluctuate.

It is inconsistent. That's why he's changing because it's not balanced perfectly all the time, sometimes he has too much natural chakra and other times he's balanced it of course it fluctuates he turned into a friggin toad for gods sake because it wasn't perfectly balanced.

No, he just heated the atmosphere to create a thunderstorm and then guided the lightning with his own faint remainder of chakra.

He was using the basics of Natural energy to turn the entire lightning storm into a single giant bolt.

First of all, when is that stated? Second, if Jiraiya's absorbing it at a constant rate, then that proves my point; his chakra flow is consistent. No reason for him having any sort of special immunity, especially since this is not canonically proven or implied.

Except he's drawing energy in at a natural rate. It's just not balanced with his own chakra which is why it's erratic. It was also never implied that Bijuu chakra could grant a host immunity to Genjutsu either but Killerbee showed that to work pretty well.

1. Show me another Genjutsu that works like Tsukuyomi.

2. Show me where other counters for it are stated besides being an Uchiha.

3. Show me where anyone besides an Uchiha has broken it.

Seems pretty clear-cut that Tsukuyomi hasn't deviated from what's been laid out in the canon.

1. It's a Genjutsu.

2. It's a Genjutsu.

3. It's a Genjutsu.

It could be broken like any normal Genjutsu. The only reason a partner doesn't work is because of how quickly it takes effect. I'm also certain Itachi has no knowledge of a bijuu host being able to use their beast to break a genjutsu either.


People build chakra to cast Jutsu as well. Forming a seal does not prove that he was trying to specifically use a Genjutsu counter.

All speculation. You're guess isn't any better than mine. It doesn't make any sense for him to just allow himself to be trapped inside a paralyzing Genjutsu and not even attempt to break it.

Speculation. We don't know how many times Naruto has faced Genjutsu or how good he is by average standards. The same goes for Jiraiya. Playing the experience card doesn't work here, as neither have feats other than Naruto getting owned by the nerfed clone of the greatest Genjutsu user in the series.

It was the first time in canon that he faced a Genjutsu IIRC. Unless you can prove otherwise it was the first time he's faced a Genjutsu.

Itachi cast Genjutsu on Deidara immediately after challenging him...



http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8260/senninmodekermit.png



^I seriously did that right after the chapter came out...

Actually...Itachi caught Deidara in the Genjutsu after Deidara's first attack missed him and blew a hole in the wall.

Many lulz ensued for that pic.

Kakashi was having far more difficulty in that exchange than Itachi was, and concerning Jiraiya, it doesn't really matter what move Itachi used to escape, since Jiraiya possesses nothing that it wouldn't have overcome anyway.

Bullshit. Kisame said himself he was surprised Kakashi was holding his own so well against Itachi. It's matters very greatly actually..Itachi crapped himself after Jiraiya gave him a serious look and used the best strategy he knew which was to get the hell away from the handsome man who can silence a crying child.

Itachi's Katons are the strongest in the series barring the combo Katon with Gamabunta and can scorch paths through solid ground.

Absolutely no proof to prove Itachi's Katon are better than anyone's. Every time he used a Katon it's missed or been overpowered. He's quite shit at it. So GTFO with something so absurd and retarded.

So I guess the part where Sasuke got nuked in the face and lived never happened?

Irrelevant. No way to prove the Curse seal adds more overall durability than Kermit mode.

That's...not how it works. He drags his target into that toad gourd and brings them to an acid pond that he throws them into. He'll have to bypass Amaterasu first.

That is so awesome where did you find that info from btw?

Android 16.

And Jutsu don't require more seals based on the chakra they require; Kage Bunshin requires one seal while Chidori requires three and Goukakyuu requires six. Amaterasu is a Doujutsu and doesn't require seals; you've basically admitted in Sasuke's case that all it requires is chakra ready to be used.

16...right what did i say?

Hand seals are required according to amount needed for the particular Jutsu.Stated. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/05/)

He didn't. He asked if Amaterasu was coming out. Asked. He wasn't sure.

He also wasn't sure Itachi was dead once he collapsed from Susano'o I guess he didn't die either >________>

:/

:turtle:

That's why he still dodges basic attacks, right?

"You don't think a little cut like this will be enough to stop me-" (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/16/)

Jiraiya is the self-admitted failure, Itachi is the one regarded by the invincible immortal as a brilliant mastermind. Itachi passed some of his own power directly on to Naruto, while Jiraiya's dying achievement was fingering an 800-year-old toad in order to relay a vague and irrelevent message. Uh...what?

Jiraiya is a self admitted failure because he never got the girl and never saved his student or teacher. Itachi's a failure because his entire life he's been a pathetic scapegoat who lost to his own little brother in a fight and never amounted to anything. See? I can exaggerate too.

I also like with all Itachi's planning and knowledge of Madara he still couldn't stop Madara from molesting Sasuke. Everything he planned still turned to shit.

That belief doesn't necessarily have to extend beyond Konoha's borders, and even if it does, there's no guarantee that Chiyo was a medic-nin, simply because she knew the basic healing technique.

Would she know a forbidden medic jutsu to exchange one's life for another if she wasn't a medic?

They canonically escaped that Jutsu with Amaterasu. And if Jiraiya's dead he can't guide it to attack them, so they can just walk right out. :/

But that's not what happened. They crapped themselves and did the best they could to get the hell out of there.

They'd need to bypass Amaterasu first.

Because they'd certainly need to bypass a technique that took even more panels and chapter than Jiraiya getting into Kermit mode..

Who else would draw Itachi bludgeoning Jiraiya with his cock? >_>

Dunno. A lot of people i guess..?

Sure, why not?

A million hours went into this masterpiece:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1264/comicvmf.png
Pretty Amazing AMIRITE?

[Nikushimi]

Bah. The sheer adrenaline pumping theme of Z is way to chronic for GT to overcome.

Please. The GT theme will take you on a Grand Tour, where a brand new adventure begins. Another challenge for Goku and his friends. Now he's a Saiyan strong, but Pilaf makes him a child again. The Dragonballs are burning red again, the world, and everything within. It's the ultimate battle between good and evil, so who's going to win? When the Saiyan clock dictates the consequence will our heroes have the strength to be the last line of defense? Well, you'd have to watch and see.

It is inconsistent. That's why he's changing because it's not balanced perfectly all the time, sometimes he has too much natural chakra and other times he's balanced it of course it fluctuates he turned into a friggin toad for gods sake because it wasn't perfectly balanced.

When did this happen? As I recall, Jiraiya remained partially transformed throughout the fight and gradually progressed towards more toad-like features in subtle ways, indicating that it was imbalanced slightly in favor of natural energy. That doesn't mean it's inconcistent. That means it was consistently imbalanced.

He was using the basics of Natural energy to turn the entire lightning storm into a single giant bolt.

Where is this stated, and by who?

Except he's drawing energy in at a natural rate. It's just not balanced with his own chakra which is why it's erratic. It was also never implied that Bijuu chakra could grant a host immunity to Genjutsu either but Killerbee showed that to work pretty well.

The Bijuu acts as a partner and consciously disrupts the illusion, it's not an inherent immunity. Jiraiya's Sennin chakra may be imbalanced, but as far as we know that imbalance seems to be consistent. Ergo, there's no reason why Itachi's Genjutsu shouldn't work.

1. It's a Genjutsu.

2. It's a Genjutsu.

3. It's a Genjutsu.

It could be broken like any normal Genjutsu. The only reason a partner doesn't work is because of how quickly it takes effect. I'm also certain Itachi has no knowledge of a bijuu host being able to use their beast to break a genjutsu either.

1. That doesn't answer the question.

2. That doesn't answer the question.

3. That doesn't answer the question.

You just admitted yourself that the partner method doesn't work because of how quickly Tsukuyomi takes effect. That's exactly the point. Tsukuyomi is not like other Genjutsu, because it can't be broken by disrupting chakra, because there is no time to disrupt the chakra. It's over virtually the instant it begins.

All speculation. You're guess isn't any better than mine.

That's the first thing you've said that I agree with, although you just sort of doomed your own argument with it as that was MY point...

It doesn't make any sense for him to just allow himself to be trapped inside a paralyzing Genjutsu and not even attempt to break it.

As you said, that's speculation. What if Orochimaru COULDN'T break it? What if he was trying to launch an attack to break Itachi's focus? There is nothing to show that he was trying to break the Genjutsu. While it's plausible, it's not something that is made explicit or implicative. Nor is there any guarantee he could've succeeded, if that's what he was actually doing.

It was the first time in canon that he faced a Genjutsu IIRC. Unless you can prove otherwise it was the first time he's faced a Genjutsu.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/62/08/

http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/4394/zaru.gif

That argument is a negative proof fallacy. Saying it's his first time is a specification without grounds to do so, and denying anything to the contrary that can't be proven is a fallacy because you have dug your heels in on a belief that is just as baseless as any other assumption. In this case, the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. You can't say it was Naruto's first time just because no other times are shown (disregarding instances prior to his learning that technique, such as I posted above to be snarky).

Besides, how would he have been able to practice using that technique if someone wasn't using Genjutsu on him? Everything he's learned to do has one big thing in common: He's actually applied them at some point while learning them.

Actually...Itachi caught Deidara in the Genjutsu after Deidara's first attack missed him and blew a hole in the wall.

Kisame disagrees. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/359/11/) He says it happened here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/359/08/). Notice how Deidara comments on Itachi's eyes. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/359/09/)

Bullshit. Kisame said himself he was surprised Kakashi was holding his own so well against Itachi. It's matters very greatly actually..Itachi crapped himself after Jiraiya gave him a serious look and used the best strategy he knew which was to get the hell away from the handsome man who can silence a crying child.

Jiraiya is a crying child. A loud one. And the only reason Itachi ran away was because he had no interest in accomplishing what Akatsuki had sent him there to do. He was actually a good guy looking for any convincing excuse to book it.

And what Kisame said about Kakashi holding his own against Itachi doesn't change the fact that that's all he was doing: holding his own. And it was with great difficulty, while Itachi stood there looking totally emotionless, as always.

Absolutely no proof to prove Itachi's Katon are better than anyone's. Every time he used a Katon it's missed or been overpowered. He's quite shit at it. So GTFO with something so absurd and retarded.

They miss because he doesn't like killing. They've been overpowered by someone he was trying to lose to (who was also using something that amplified his power). Itachi's Katons still scorch paths through solid ground and cause large explosions on impact, and they're just as lethal as anything else if they hit. And since Itachi WAS able to hit Sasuke...well, there you go. 'Nuff said.

Irrelevant. No way to prove the Curse seal adds more overall durability than Kermit mode.

Feats. Juin Sasuke's are better. Sennin Jiraiya has not shown the durability necessary to withstand a direct hit from Deidara's most powerful C2 bomb.

That is so awesome where did you find that info from btw?

The databooks. But there is manga evidence of this as well, since we see them in this alternate world where his chameleon is dissolving in a pond. Then we see them exit the toad gourd and they're back in Amegakure. So the manga evidence is all there, I'm merely citing the databooks for clarification on what the hell happened, since before this technique was explained I had no idea what was going on, because the transition is poorly done on Kishimoto's part, IMO.

16...right what did i say?

18. >_>

Hand seals are required according to amount needed for the particular Jutsu.Stated. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/90/05/)

"From there, it is necessary to control the chakra, according to the amount needed for that particular Jutsu, by using a series of complex hand poses."

This statement in no way indicates that the number of seals is determined by the quantity of chakra. It states that seals are necessary to control the amount of chakra relegated to the Jutsu in question.

He also wasn't sure Itachi was dead once he collapsed from Susano'o I guess he didn't die either >________>

Oh he didn't. You will see. You will all see.

The serious difference between these two instances is that he later confirmed that Itachi was dead. Asking isn't the same as stating. When he asked if Amaterasu was coming out, he didn't know, it was just something he was waiting for. It happened, but not then- later.

"You don't think a little cut like this will be enough to stop me-" (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/16/)

I am already aware that Orochimaru has an insane amount of durability and regeneration.

However.

That does not make him immortal. He still got put down for the count by Tsunade and the constant pain/rotting of his sealed arms almost killed him. He doesn't just walk into attacks, he DOES dodge them when he can.

Jiraiya is a self admitted failure because he never got the girl and never saved his student or teacher. Itachi's a failure because his entire life he's been a pathetic scapegoat who lost to his own little brother in a fight and never amounted to anything. See? I can exaggerate too.

Except Jiraiya DID admit to being a failure, so that's not exaggeration on my part. Being a scapegoat doesn't make someone a failure and neither does losing a fight to their little brother if it's one that they staged in the first place to end that way.

I also like with all Itachi's planning and knowledge of Madara he still couldn't stop Madara from molesting Sasuke. Everything he planned still turned to shit.

After he died and could no longer do anything about it.

Prior to that, Madara kept in line with what Itachi wanted.

As I often like to say, the King kept his pimp hand strong.

Also, you're kidding yourself if you don't think Itachi's wishes, ideologies, and deathbed gifts won't have won out in the end over Madara's by the time this manga's over. We can all see what's coming just like anyone standing on train tracks staring down the train could.

Would she know a forbidden medic jutsu to exchange one's life for another if she wasn't a medic?

It's not a medic Jutsu, it's a Tensei Jutsu. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/274/16/)

Granted she DOES possess basic medic skills...so what? Non-Taijutsu specialists still use Taijutsu. Non-Ninjutsu specialists still use Ninjutsu. Non-Genjutsu specialists still use Genjutsu. Having that skill doesn't make her a full-blown medic-nin, necessarily. And once more, even if she WAS a medic-nin, nothing says Konoha's practices apply to Suna's.

But that's not what happened. They crapped themselves and did the best they could to get the hell out of there.

Define "crapped themselves" please. It looks to me like Itachi casually getting done with manhandling his little brother and telling Kisame it's time to pull out. The most we got out of either of them was a bead of sweat from Kisame, because he was waiting for Itachi to make the call and watching as they were being eaten alive. Had The Kisame not been concerned with what Itachi wanted to do, he wouldn't have worried about breaking out. He wouldn't have run away at all. He would have stayed and flattened Jiraiya with a flex of his biceps and then proceeded to solo Konoha.

The Kisame doesn't read books, he stares them down until he gets the information he wants.

Ultimately, the explanation is that Itachi didn't want Naruto, so he ran instead of killing Jiraiya. Or letting The Kisame do it.

Because they'd certainly need to bypass a technique that took even more panels and chapter than Jiraiya getting into Kermit mode..

Amaterasu can be used instantly.

Dunno. A lot of people i guess..?

If that's true, then I really need to step up my game.

A million hours went into this masterpiece:

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/1264/comicvmf.png
Pretty Amazing AMIRITE?

Itachi would destroy base Jiraiya in Taijutsu.