Jiriaya vs. Younger Itachi (Conditions) [Archive]

MinatoNamikaze

08-17-2008, 03:33 AM

All these reasons plus the fact that Jiraiya has way more battle experience than Itachi. Also the part where Smiley showed Kisame contradicting himself. Neither knew of Jiraiya's sage mode. Which makes Jiraiya exceptionally stronger. Also had Kisame and Itachi not fled Jiraiya would have been able to finish them both. But I'll just wait till someone says something about that comment and explain why.

Ok i will. They also said if they all fought, they all would die.

Yes they didnt know about hermit mode, but none knew about sasuno either. I would say Hermit mode = Sasuno if not sasuno> hermit mode, but becasue i dont want to argue about it casue Im not changeing anyones mind, ill go with the first one.

And yes Jiriya has much more experience, but Itachi is a gifted genious. He never made unexperienced mistakes. He almsot fights as though hes been fighting for 100 years. :)

You also have to remeber Jiriya has been trough his prime and has learned eveything and gotten as stong as he could have been. Itahci was about 8 - 10 years from his prime, and he never really did anything after he killed his clan to train adn grow stronger. So i say put itachi in his prime and at his best and he takes it.

One last thing, we put Jiriya at full strength (as strong as he coudl possibly hope to be, all the stops pulled off) if we did the same to itahci, he would have EMS. That and him in his prime, it would almost be a no contest.

vane

08-17-2008, 03:43 AM

Ok i will. They also said if they all fought, they all would die.

But this is going into info that neither Kisame nor Itachi knew of. Neither knew of HM.

Yes they didnt know about hermit mode, but none knew about sasuno either.
Susanoo is an attack. It is not a power up.

I would say Hermit mode = Sasuno if not sasuno> hermit mode,
Cant be compared. Seeing that Susanoo is an attack and HM is a form. Now if you want to get into attacks then I would say the frog song is on par with Susanoo. yes the Frog song takes time. But that is because it is such an awesome attack.

but becasue i dont want to argue about it casue Im not changeing anyones mind, ill go with the first one.

Whether or not your changeing minds shoulnd mean to lessen your post.

And yes Jiriya has much more experience, but Itachi is a gifted genious. He never made unexperienced mistakes. He almsot fights as though hes been fighting for 100 years
Im glad people actually keep saying this. Because it is funny hearing people say that Jiraiya is not a genious in his own sense because he was never called one. That just means thta people are actually following the hype that is Itachi.

You also have to remeber Jiriya has been trough his prime and has learned eveything and gotten as stong as he could have been. Itahci was about 8 - 10 years from his prime, and he never really did anything after he killed his clan to train adn grow stronger. So i say put itachi in his prime and at his best and he takes it. One last thing, we put Jiriya at full strength (as strong as he coudl possibly hope to be, all the stops pulled off) if we did the same to itahci, he would have EMS. That and him in his prime, it would almost be a no contest.

They are both the way they were before they died. So all the prime stuff you just mentioned is pointless. Also Itachi would never have the EMS because he wouldnt ever kill his brother.

MinatoNamikaze

08-17-2008, 04:02 AM

But this is going into info that neither Kisame nor Itachi knew of. Neither knew of HM.

Exactly so they couldnt have made an accurate decision.

Susanoo is an attack. It is not a power up.

I know, but that doesnt matter cause its also a defence. Form or attack makes no difference as long as it makes you invincible. (sasuno ultimate attack, ultimate defence)

Cant be compared. Seeing that Susanoo is an attack and HM is a form. Now if you want to get into attacks then I would say the frog song is on par with Susanoo. yes the Frog song takes time. But that is because it is such an awesome attack.

Read above (I know you already did :))

Whether or not your changeing minds shoulnd mean to lessen your post.

Its just a waste of time though cause people either love or hate itachi. Ive tried, but Im not making a hater a lover and thats fine becasue eveyones entitled to their own opinions.

Im glad people actually keep saying this. Because it is funny hearing people say that Jiraiya is not a genious in his own sense because he was never called one. That just means thta people are actually following the hype that is Itachi.

By no means am I calling him an idiot, but for his age I believe Itachi is more intelligent. I think you know what I was getting at with my point ;)

They are both the way they were before they died. So all the prime stuff you just mentioned is pointless. Also Itachi would never have the EMS because he wouldnt ever kill his brother.

I know, I was speaking hypotheically. If both were at absolute maximum power and prime, Itachi would take it, not by alot, but he would IMO

vane

08-17-2008, 06:35 AM

Exactly so they couldnt have made an accurate decision.

What Im getting at is that neither knew about HM and Kisame still said that Jiraiya might be a match for the both of them. So if you ad HM then that kinda puts it more in Jiraiya's favor.

I know, but that doesnt matter cause its also a defence. Form or attack makes no difference as long as it makes you invincible. (sasuno ultimate attack, ultimate defence)

Actually it does matter. I mean you are refering to an attack (that if used will kill the user as seen in the manga). To a power up that increases every aspect of the user with no set backs. They just cant be compared. Literally. But I do know what you were trying to say.

Its just a waste of time though cause people either love or hate itachi. Ive tried, but Im not making a hater a lover and thats fine becasue eveyones entitled to their own opinions.

It doesnt matter. You dont lessen your post because you think it wont change minds. Its not suppose to anyway. You extend your post to the fullest to make sure your point gets across so that when the other person still denies what you are saying then you stop. But always make sure you get your point across.

By no means am I calling him an idiot, but for his age I believe Itachi is more intelligent. I think you know what I was getting at with my point
Yes by age. But that still plays no part in this battle because Jiraiya is no longer the same age as Itachi. Yes Itachi is smarter than Jiraiya than when Jiraiya was Itachi's same age. But Jiraiya is now in his 50's and Itahci is like 18 or so. But with all the time on Jiraiya's side and Battle experience, I think it gives Jiraiya an edge.

I know, I was speaking hypotheically. If both were at absolute maximum power and prime, Itachi would take it, not by alot, but he would IMO

Not saying it in a smart a$$ way. But this is not a hypothetical battle. Its a battle that is before each of them died. So really they couldnt get any stronger anyways since they died. Because looking at it like that we can make about 1000 other theories as to why one would beat the other. But since this battle is right before each of them died, that is where their power stops.

And I think Jiraiya in this case takes this.

Peinsagod

08-17-2008, 07:23 AM

ok what Itachi said later was the if he AND Kisame fought him they would all die plus they didn't know about hm and so jir has the upper hand he's not dumb enough to look into itachis eyes and even caught in an illujsion he can dispell genjutsu

also jir in hermit mode is extremely fast and susanoo is very slow so jir wouldn't get hit by it and could just stay away till itachi is drained of chakra then slit his throat

Smiley

08-17-2008, 12:01 PM

Ma and Pa toad need some time to be summoned. In the fight with Pein, Jiraiya summoned Gamaken to distract Pein, while he was summoning the toads.
If he does the same thing here, Itachi can just put Gamaken in genjutsu and then go fight Jiraiya.

MinatoNamikaze

08-17-2008, 02:45 PM

What Im getting at is that neither knew about HM and Kisame still said that Jiraiya might be a match for the both of them. So if you ad HM then that kinda puts it more in Jiraiya's favor.

True but kisame didnt know about sasuno either. Sasuno is just as important a factor in the battle as HM

Actually it does matter. I mean you are refering to an attack (that if used will kill the user as seen in the manga). To a power up that increases every aspect of the user with no set backs. They just cant be compared. Literally. But I do know what you were trying to say.

Ya, as long as it gives you power and an advantage, I dont care if its a summoned worm.:D Itll still give you an advantage in battle.

It doesnt matter. You dont lessen your post because you think it wont change minds. Its not suppose to anyway. You extend your post to the fullest to make sure your point gets across so that when the other person still denies what you are saying then you stop. But always make sure you get your point across.

Well you should see all my other posts regarding itachi. People disagree, and we go over the same points over and over again. I have argued about every single aspect about Itachi all the way up to him not being considered a true hero many times and I didnt want to get into it again, its fruitless. But I see what your saying. If I hadnt been it that many endless pointless debates, i would have.:D

Yes by age. But that still plays no part in this battle because Jiraiya is no longer the same age as Itachi. Yes Itachi is smarter than Jiraiya than when Jiraiya was Itachi's same age. But Jiraiya is now in his 50's and Itahci is like 18 or so. But with all the time on Jiraiya's side and Battle experience, I think it gives Jiraiya an edge.

No I meant that itachi is extremely smart for his age. Meaning he is well ahead of his time, meaning Itachi = Jiriya (if not Itachi>jiriya) in intelligence. Have we ever seen Itachi make inexperienced mistakes like other experienced characters in Naruto? Again im not saying Jiriya is stupid, infact he is very smart (one of the smartest and most experienced) Only Itachi superior intelligence makes up for his 30 less years in battle, which is shown every time Itachi fights.

Not saying it in a smart a$$ way. But this is not a hypothetical battle. Its a battle that is before each of them died. So really they couldnt get any stronger anyways since they died. Because looking at it like that we can make about 1000 other theories as to why one would beat the other. But since this battle is right before each of them died, that is where their power stops.

I know, but I was speaking hypotheically. Nothing to do with the thread. I just wanted to know who you thought would be stronger without any handicaps, Full power toe to toe.:D

And I think Jiraiya in this case takes this.

Ok fair enough, Im not going to yell at oyu for disagreeing:D :D

Oh and to the people who think sasuno is slow, show me proof. Did you happen to miss how quikly Saauno took out all 8 or so head of the snakes that were lunging for him (please note how fast a snake strikes when its atacking) and how he caught oro with the sword that fast aswell. Sasuno is one of (if not THE) best jutsus in the entire Narutouniverse. Whe Itachi summons it he is "invincible" as said by zetsu. Ultime defence and ultimate offence.

Hashirama

08-17-2008, 06:29 PM

Itachi takes this.

rush rush

08-17-2008, 06:33 PM

Itachi takes this.

Really why Jiriya can kick his A$$ but please tell me why you think this :rolleyes:

Hashirama

08-17-2008, 06:40 PM

Really why Jiriya can kick his A$$ but please tell me why you think this :rolleyes:

You know that young Itachi owned Orochimaru easily, right? Orochimaru and Jiraiya are almost the same level. So, Itachi definitely can own Jiraiya.

Smiley

08-17-2008, 06:40 PM

Really why Jiriya can kick his A$$ but please tell me why you think this :rolleyes:

And you say your reasons for thinking that Jiraiya will win ;)

rush rush

08-17-2008, 06:43 PM

And you say your reasons for thinking that Jiraiya will win ;)

Not easily but he will pull through hes one of thestrongest ninja in the show!

Smiley

08-17-2008, 06:51 PM

Not easily but he will pull through hes one of thestrongest ninja in the show!

How about going into more details..?
I agree, Jiraiya is deinitely in top 10.
But Itachi isn't a joke.
He defeated one of the legendary sennin in one attack twice.
He easily beat the strongest Konoha's jounin.
Also, with help of Madara he killed the whole Uchiha clan.
Not to mention that he has the strongest ninjutsu and genjutsu in the series.
Amaterasu, which is as unavoidable as Kirin.
And Tsukoyomi, which puts the victim in the strongest genjutsu after an eye contact.

rush rush

08-17-2008, 06:59 PM

How about going into more details..?
I agree, Jiraiya is deinitely in top 10.
But Itachi isn't a joke.
He defeated one of the legendary sennin in one attack twice.
He easily beat the strongest Konoha's jounin.
Also, with help of Madara he killed the whole Uchiha clan.
Not to mention that he has the strongest ninjutsu and genjutsu in the series.
Amaterasu, which is as unavoidable as Kirin.
And Tsukoyomi, which puts the victim in the strongest genjutsu after an eye contact.

1.Sasuno is suicide
2.amarterasu is avoidebel because if it was not than Itachi would use it in the first second of a battle and kill the oppenent!
3.Jiriya is a genius he knows not to look in his eyes!
and p.s Madara is stronger than Itachi and the first beat him and Jiriya is stronger than the first so yea Jiriya wins!

Smiley

08-17-2008, 07:07 PM

1.Sasuno is suicide
2.amarterasu is avoidebel because if it was not than Itachi would use it in the first second of a battle and kill the oppenent!
3.Jiriya is a genius he knows not to look in his eyes!
and p.s Madara is stronger than Itachi and the first beat him and Jiriya is stronger than the first so yea Jiriya wins!

1. Where in my post have I mentioned Susano'o? Nowhere.
Does it kill him opens a whole new subject which I'm not going to get into now.

2. It's avoidable, but extremely hard.
We saw Sasuke avoid with a replacement technique which Jiraiya doesn't have.

3. That is true.
That, however puts him at disadvantage.
If he isn't looking him in the eyes, he won't know that Amaterasu is coming, and even if he had ways to avoid it, he will fail to.

4. Jiraiya probably isn't stronger than the 1st. Even if he was, you're using a battle chain, which can't work in shinobi world.

Hashirama

08-17-2008, 07:08 PM

rush rush

08-17-2008, 07:16 PM

MinatoNamikaze

08-17-2008, 07:50 PM

How about going into more details..?
I agree, Jiraiya is deinitely in top 10.
But Itachi isn't a joke.
He defeated one of the legendary sennin in one attack twice.
He easily beat the strongest Konoha's jounin.
Also, with help of Madara he killed the whole Uchiha clan.
Not to mention that he has the strongest ninjutsu and genjutsu in the series.
Amaterasu, which is as unavoidable as Kirin.
And Tsukoyomi, which puts the victim in the strongest genjutsu after an eye contact.

And sasuno with the ultimate offence and ultimate defence.

I would even go as far as to put Jiriya in top 4 (just before his death) of living shinobi. I would put, Itahci, pein, Madara ahead of him.

rush rush

08-17-2008, 08:00 PM

And sasuno with the ultimate offence and ultimate defence.

I would even go as far as to put Jiriya in top 4 (just before his death) of living shinobi. I would put, Itahci, pein, Madara ahead of him.

im sorry but i disagree i don't think Itachi would be stronger than Jiriya

MinatoNamikaze

08-17-2008, 08:16 PM

No, Susano'o isn't suicide. Itachi died because of disease not because of Susano'o.

Amaterasu is unavoidable, Zetsu said it. You can block it somehow. But you can't avoid it.

Naruto didn't look in Itachi's eyes, although he did fall to Itachi's Genjutsu.

Thank you I was just going to say the exact same thing.

And to rush rush, that was regular genjutsu, not tsukiyomi so it lasted regular time. But thats not really important:D

Muffin

09-25-2008, 05:18 AM

Ok. Sorry to bump a dead topic.

But i would really like to resolve this.

We all know what Itachi can do. But noone really puts an emphasis on Jiraiya's abilities. He showed in his battle with Pein that he is just freakishly powerful.

What does Itachi have to defend against the hermit art: deep fryer which fills an entire room with burning oil and fire?

Then there's this Hermit art: Hair needle barrage. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/16/) Itachi will definitely not be able to defend against something that quick without seeing it and seeing as Sharingan does not actually give a larger range of vision all Jiraiya needs is a blind spot to nail Itachi in the back of the head with a needle and end it right there.

Even against Itachi's ultimate attack Susanoo Itachi pulls a dud. The swamp of the underworld can be made near impossible to detect like here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/16/) Itachi would be stuck in the floor while Jiraiya can just chill and wait for Itachi to die.

I cannot see how Itachi can pull it out against Jiraiya.

vane

09-25-2008, 07:03 AM

^^ Exactly my point. Although I havnt ever brought up the needle hair but that is true. It is a very quick attack that if used properly can be devestateing.

D.I.Y Death

09-25-2008, 10:05 AM

Thank you for that post. People who can't think choose Itachi over Jiraiya.

MinatoNamikaze

09-25-2008, 05:51 PM

We all know what Itachi can do. But noone really puts an emphasis on Jiraiya's abilities. He showed in his battle with Pein that he is just freakishly powerful.

Yes he is powerful, but that was him all out. We cant measure Itachis full power becasue we have never and will never see him at FULL power going all out like jiriya did. If yo think he was going all out against sasuke you are very biased. He was diseased, almost completely blind, and wasnt trying to kill sasuke.

What does Itachi have to defend against the hermit art: deep fryer which fills an entire room with burning oil and fire?

sasuno

Then there's this Hermit art: Hair needle barrage. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/16/) Itachi will definitely not be able to defend against something that quick without seeing it and seeing as Sharingan does not actually give a larger range of vision all Jiraiya needs is a blind spot to nail Itachi in the back of the head with a needle and end it right there.

sasuno

Even against Itachi's ultimate attack Susanoo Itachi pulls a dud. The swamp of the underworld can be made near impossible to detect like here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/16/) Itachi would be stuck in the floor while Jiraiya can just chill and wait for Itachi to die.

sasuno doesnt move so swamp of the underworld is pointless.

Now let me ask you how jiriya moves faster than a snakes strike continuosly. Even in hermit mode hes not fast enough to dodge sasunos sword

Muffin

09-25-2008, 06:09 PM

Yes he is powerful, but that was him all out. We cant measure Itachis full power becasue we have never and will never see him at FULL power going all out like jiriya did. If yo think he was going all out against sasuke you are very biased. He was diseased, almost completely blind, and wasnt trying to kill sasuke.
Itachi's full power is him in his disease ridden, half blind state. He's never going to be stronger than he was then. So it was him at full power.

sasuno
You know it's a little ridiculous that your being so narrow minded in saying Itachi can defend against attacks that he won't even see coming. Itachi won't get Susanoo up if he's catching needles in the back of his skull 20 seconds after Jiraiya goes into hermit mode.

sasuno doesnt move so swamp of the underworld is pointless.

Now let me ask you how jiriya moves faster than a snakes strike continuosly. Even in hermit mode hes not fast enough to dodge sasunos sword

It leaves Itachi in a hole unable to go anywhere.

So your entire argument of Itachi winning is Susanoo? Itachi won't live long enough to put it up. If he starts the battle with it he basically forfeits. Jiraiya is fast enough to see a giant sword coming towards him to move away.

MinatoNamikaze

09-25-2008, 06:13 PM

Itachi's full power is him in his disease ridden, half blind state. He's never going to be stronger than he was then. So it was him at full power.

so then are we putting jiriya in when hes dead becasue he not getting any stronger.

You know it's a little ridiculous that your being so narrow minded in saying Itachi can defend against attacks that he won't even see coming. Itachi won't get Susanoo up if he's catching needles in the back of his skull 20 seconds after Jiraiya goes into hermit mode.

Sharingan tracks movemnets, and sasuno is faster than lighting

It leaves Itachi in a hole unable to go anywhere.

So your entire argument of Itachi winning is Susanoo? Itachi won't live long enough to put it up. If he starts the battle with it he basically forfeits. Jiraiya is fast enough to see a giant sword coming towards him to move away

hes not faster than a snake strike is he :confused:

Smiley

09-25-2008, 06:19 PM

How is Swamp of the undeworld almost impossible to detect? :huh:
Itachi would read his hand seal, see that it is a doton attack and jump up before the swamp is formed.

Muffin

09-25-2008, 06:29 PM

so then are we putting jiriya in when hes dead becasue he not getting any stronger.

Then please refer me to the manga pages where Itachi is stronger than his battle against Sasuke don't worry i'll wait.

Sharingan tracks movemnets, and sasuno is faster than lighting

Sharingan has blind spots. Jiraiya can go around to behind Itachi by using a smoke bomb and the same frog he used against Pein. Susanoo's defense won't work if he doesn't know an attack's coming.

hes not faster than a snake strike is he :confused:

He's not going to charge straight into the attack. He's fast enough to dodge a giant sword that's swiping at him and get to a good enough distance to watch Itachi die.

How is Swamp of the undeworld almost impossible to detect? :huh:
Itachi would read his hand seal, see that it is a doton attack and jump up before the swamp is formed.

Swamp of the underworld leaves almost no mark at all on the area it's used if Jiraiya doesn't want it to be seen. Itachi couldn't seem to catch Kakashi's doton seal. But what happens when Itachi comes down anyway? He'll get caught in a swamp anyway.

Smiley

09-25-2008, 06:35 PM

Swamp of the underworld leaves almost no mark at all on the area it's used if Jiraiya doesn't want it to be seen. Itachi couldn't seem to catch Kakashi's doton seal. But what happens when Itachi comes down anyway? He'll get caught in a swamp anyway.

Itachi fired a Katon at him, and Kakashi did his hand seals behind the grand fireball.
Jiraiya's hand seals aren't that fast and Itachi would be able to track them.

Sharingan can definitely see Jiraiya's hair needle barriage coming, then use Katon to burn it or Shunshin to move out of the way.

Muffin

09-25-2008, 06:39 PM

Itachi fired a Katon at him, and Kakashi did his hand seals behind the grand fireball.
Jiraiya's hand seals aren't that fast and Itachi would be able to track them.

Sharingan can definitely see Jiraiya's hair needle barriage coming, then use Katon to burn it or Shunshin to move out of the way.

Were Itachi still able to track the seals then what? It's not like he knows the specific jutsu he's using. Even if he jumped he would still land in the swamp and be unable to move.

Sharingan doesn't give the user a wider range of vision. It has blind spots. Jiraiya could easily get into a blind spot. It's Jiraiya's fastest attack and covers a wide range a simple shunshin wont suffice to get out of the way even if Itachi were for some miraculous reason able to see it.

Smiley

09-25-2008, 06:49 PM

Were Itachi still able to track the seals then what? It's not like he knows the specific jutsu he's using. Even if he jumped he would still land in the swamp and be unable to move.

He would channel chakra in his feet and walk over the swamp.

Sharingan doesn't give the user a wider range of vision. It has blind spots. Jiraiya could easily get into a blind spot. It's Jiraiya's fastest attack and covers a wide range a simple shunshin wont suffice to get out of the way even if Itachi were for some miraculous reason able to see it.

It's not a mraciulous thing; it's Sharingan.
Pein had time to summon, Itachi will have time to use body flicker.

Itachi won't just let Jiraiya get behind him, although we've seen him dodge even attacks coming from behind.

That is all assuming that Jiraiya would manage to prepare his hermit mode.
Hermit mode needs time to be ready.

Thank you for that post. People who can't think choose Itachi over Jiraiya.

So when they disagree with you they can't think?
I understand that people think Jiraiya could beat Itachi, but he's definitely not much below his level.

MinatoNamikaze

09-26-2008, 01:33 AM

Then please refer me to the manga pages where Itachi is stronger than his battle against Sasuke don't worry i'll wait.

Uh thats my point geious. we havent ever seen him at his strongest becasue he has never gone all out :p So all we have seen himcan be increaseed ALOT as much as you hate to admit it and probably wont.

Sharingan has blind spots. Jiraiya can go around to behind Itachi by using a smoke bomb and the same frog he used against Pein. Susanoo's defense won't work if he doesn't know an attack's coming.

Oh and Itahci is going to be confused by a smoke bomb. Please hes alot stronger than that.

He's not going to charge straight into the attack. He's fast enough to dodge a giant sword that's swiping at him and get to a good enough distance to watch Itachi die.

He is not faster than a snake strike is he?:p

Swamp of the underworld leaves almost no mark at all on the area it's used if Jiraiya doesn't want it to be seen. Itachi couldn't seem to catch Kakashi's doton seal. But what happens when Itachi comes down anyway? He'll get caught in a swamp anyway.

He wont land in the swamp. Besides the swamp wouldnt affect sasunos ARMS

Muffin

09-26-2008, 05:09 AM

He would channel chakra in his feet and walk over the swamp.
How would that save him when it's sucking him down?

It's not a mraciulous thing; it's Sharingan.
Pein had time to summon, Itachi will have time to use body flicker.

Itachi won't just let Jiraiya get behind him, although we've seen him dodge even attacks coming from behind.

That is all assuming that Jiraiya would manage to prepare his hermit mode.
Hermit mode needs time to be ready.

Sharingan doesn't make the user see more than normal. The only reason Pein had enough time to summon was because he saw the attack coming. Itachi doesn't have that luxury.

All of Itachi's attacks need time to be ready as well. Jiraiya would be able to stall for enough time against Itachi.

Uh thats my point geious. we havent ever seen him at his strongest becasue he has never gone all out :p So all we have seen himcan be increaseed ALOT as much as you hate to admit it and probably wont.
Right so you naturally just assume Itachi must be much stronger than his fight against Sasuke? Well he wasn't. That was Itachi at his limit.

Oh and Itahci is going to be confused by a smoke bomb. Please hes alot stronger than that.

Being strong doesn't make you clairvoyant Pein almost missed the attack. Unless your implying Pein is weak?

He is not faster than a snake strike is he?:p
No he's faster than a toad leaps.

He wont land in the swamp. Besides the swamp wouldnt affect sasunos ARMS
Itachi gets stuck in the swamp. Can't move any closer. Jiraiya just uses the toad song. Bye Itachi.

D.I.Y Death

09-26-2008, 05:20 AM

So when they disagree with you they can't think?
I understand that people think Jiraiya could beat Itachi, but he's definitely not much below his level.

in this case, yes, how much common sense does it take to figure out that Jir is at a totally different level than Itachi? Its not like there isn't any proof anywhere so people who have a differing opinion can't rationalize properly. This is like my argument about how Susano has devastating effects on Itachi, even with perfect proof some are just too stupid and head strong to admit they are wrong. This is also the reason why I avoid this place on most occasions because there's no point in arguing a solid point with fan boys because no matter how solid and canon your proof it it will never be accepted.

Soul

09-26-2008, 11:48 AM

People usually use this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/144/08/) to prove that Jiraiya > Itachi.
Well, it can't really be used as proof.

1) Kisame said might. He might be a match, and he might not.
2) It was later contradicted by the same character here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/07/)

Kisame indirectly states that Itachi > Jiraiya
"Why is a retreat necessary for a man like him" (referring to his strength).

Other than that, state your opinion and reasons.

So what your trying to say is jiraiya has a weakness and itachi can beat him?

Fail. Problem is Itachi doesnt know his weakness. Everyone knows jiraiya is stronger than itachi. For god sake, Jiraiya is a legendary sannin, Itachi is like Anbu level. Itachi had to use half his chakra to get out of jiraiya's technique.

Matter of fact, If itachi CAN beat jiraiya, I guarantee you he wont beat his sage mode. All itachi can do is dodge his techniques. Jiraiya has an enormous amount of stamina/chakra. Within in minutes itachi will run out of chakra and then bam he's down.

MinatoNamikaze

09-26-2008, 03:20 PM

Fail. Problem is Itachi doesnt know his weakness. Everyone knows jiraiya is stronger than itachi. For god sake, Jiraiya is a legendary sannin, Itachi is like Anbu level. Itachi had to use half his chakra to get out of jiraiya's technique.

Itachi is hokage level as jiriya is. And amateratsu doesnt take up half his chakra.

Matter of fact, If itachi CAN beat jiraiya, I guarantee you he wont beat his sage mode. All itachi can do is dodge his techniques. Jiraiya has an enormous amount of stamina/chakra. Within in minutes itachi will run out of chakra and then bam he's down.

Ok instead of using sasuno, Itachi just uses amateratsu (unavoidable) on jiriya. How does jiriya get out of that.

D.I.Y Death

09-26-2008, 04:02 PM

Itachi is hokage level as jiriya is. And amateratsu doesnt take up half his chakra.

Ok instead of using sasuno, Itachi just uses amateratsu (unavoidable) on jiriya. How does jiriya get out of that.

Ok first of all Amaretsu takes a lot of chakra out of Jiraiya, not half but a lot of it. Sage Barrier will also stop Amaretsu easily.

Next Susano can be avoided and trapped in swamp of the underworld, or better yet try the frog's belly to save some chakra just in case. Susano is not an indefinite move and has massive side effects on Itachi's health as I've already proven with half a dozen links(to the manga) in other threads.
Normally its not a simple "you're wrong I'm right" scenario but when you've been proven wrong so many times and refuse to give up you just look stupid. So stop looking stupid and start posting like you used to when you first came here because this is getting absurd and stupid with how redundant, opinionated and blind your posts have been for the last few weeks.

vane

09-26-2008, 05:26 PM

Itachi is hokage level as jiriya is. And amateratsu doesnt take up half his chakra.

Ok instead of using sasuno, Itachi just uses amateratsu (unavoidable) on jiriya. How does jiriya get out of that.

Now Im not jumping in right now. But we have already debated this. Basically you just brought it back full circle. I have already gave you proof and a lot of the times you agreed with me about the Amaterasu thing (not that you thought I was right. BUt about a time or 2 that Jiraiya can avoid Amaterasu). So bringing it up now is kinda pointless. So far the only tech that you wont give up on is Susanoo and you should stick to that in this case. Because you are just brining up old facts that will get proven wrong and wrong again, and then just bring back up later when you feel like someones forgot.

Samehada

09-26-2008, 06:48 PM

Uh thats my point geious. we havent ever seen him at his strongest becasue he has never gone all out :p So all we have seen himcan be increaseed ALOT as much as you hate to admit it and probably wont.

Oh and Itahci is going to be confused by a smoke bomb. Please hes alot stronger than that.

He is not faster than a snake strike is he?:p

He wont land in the swamp. Besides the swamp wouldnt affect sasunos ARMS

But we don't know how much it can be improved, and i have to say, using susano is pretty much all out.

just because a trick is simple doesn't mean it's weak, and i don't really see a way to counter it, unless he knows some windjutsu the smoke going to be there, limiting his eyesight, it's now like he can blow it away with his mouth.

You know how a mungo kills a snake? it tires it out by letting it attack over and over again, how can he do that? Simple, hes having a faster reaction time, which makes a huge difference. (hmm, maybe a bit offtopic...) anyway, all I'm saying is a snake isn't the fastest creature on earth and it's a big possibility that Jiraiya is faster, atleast in hermit mode.

He just uses it and then stands there dancing outside the swords range, the susano won't be able to touch him, so itachi would have to leave the safety of susano's shield.

Offtopic: Damn Vane, your showpicturethingyintheleftcorner just gets more awsome everytime I see it :nuts:

Edit: Avatar it's called /d'oh

Smiley

09-26-2008, 06:52 PM

How would that save him when it's sucking him down?

Swamp won't be sucking him down any more than water would.
And any average ninja can walk on water by channeling chakra in their feet.
Itachi would walk over the swamp.

Sharingan doesn't make the user see more than normal. The only reason Pein had enough time to summon was because he saw the attack coming. Itachi doesn't have that luxury.

Sharingan sees attacks before they come.
He would see Jiraiya's hair technique before he uses it and would avoid it on time.

All of Itachi's attacks need time to be ready as well. Jiraiya would be able to stall for enough time against Itachi.

Explain.
Against Pein he used Gamaken as distraction.
Itachi can get rid of Gamaken in couple of seconds with genjutsu.

in this case, yes, how much common sense does it take to figure out that Jir is at a totally different level than Itachi? Its not like there isn't any proof anywhere so people who have a differing opinion can't rationalize properly.

No offense, but Jiraiya being on a whole different level than Itachi is material for fan fiction.
We've already seen him instant-pwn ninja with the same title as Jiraiya.
Kisame was surprised that Itachi had to retreat vs. Jiraiya.

I have no problem with you saying that Jiriaya would beat him, but saying that he is head and shoulders above him is just ridiculous.

So what your trying to say is jiraiya has a weakness and itachi can beat him?

Lol wut? Have you even read the OP?
The whole point of it was that Kisame's statement can't be used to prove that Jiraiya > Itachi.

Fail. Problem is Itachi doesnt know his weakness. Everyone knows jiraiya is stronger than itachi. For god sake, Jiraiya is a legendary sannin, Itachi is like Anbu level. Itachi had to use half his chakra to get out of jiraiya's technique.

Again.. what?
Itachi one paneled one of the legendary sennin TWICE.
And you're telling me that he is ANBU level? Bullshit.
Saying that Jiraiya would win because he is one of the sennin is a bad argument.

Ok first of all Amaretsu takes a lot of chakra out of Jiraiya, not half but a lot of it. Sage Barrier will also stop Amaretsu easily.

How will Jiraiya know that Amaterasu is coming?
Putting Jiraiya against Itachi, people immediately assume that Jiraiya won't be looking Itachi in the eyes.

Then, how will he know that Amaterasu is coming and prepare the frog's stomach to avoid it?

D.I.Y Death

09-26-2008, 07:53 PM

Swamp won't be sucking him down any more than water would.
And any average ninja can walk on water by channeling chakra in their feet.
Itachi would walk over the swamp.

Its not an ordinary swamp, or Pein would have just walked out of it.
Point null.

Sharingan sees attacks before they come.
He would see Jiraiya's hair technique before he uses it and would avoid it on time.

Sure sharingan can see it, but that doesn't mean Itachi's reaction speed is as fast as his Hair jutsu which is Jir's fastest and widest range attack.

No offense, but Jiraiya being on a whole different level than Itachi is material for fan fiction.
We've already seen him instant-pwn ninja with the same title as Jiraiya.
Kisame was surprised that Itachi had to retreat vs. Jiraiya.
I have no problem with you saying that Jiriaya would beat him, but saying that he is head and shoulders above him is just ridiculous.

Itachi has one thing going for him and that's his MS other than that he's a bit lacking, good at genjutsu, ok at taijutsu, ninjutsu is lacking and stamina is horrible. He's not amazing unless he has the MS.

Jir has his sage mode, summoning techniques (Itachi's comes from his ms), ransagen, toad techniques, fire techniques, genjutsu and a few others. Over all hes a far better ninja and out does Itachi in everything except Genjutsu by more than just a little and as soon as Sage mode is activated his abilities increase ten fold. Sure Itachi has his MS HAX but that's it and as soon as his stamina wears out (which doesn't take long) he's screwed.

Again.. what?
Itachi one paneled one of the legendary sennin TWICE.
And you're telling me that he is ANBU level? Bullshit.
Saying that Jiraiya would win because he is one of the sennin is a bad argument.

I agree, but we have seen time and time again that rank means very little. Hell Naruto's taken out s-class criminals before and he's no where near that kind of rank. We have also seen S-Class criminals take out Kage and Sannin take out Kage. Rank is a pointless argument.

How will Jiraiya know that Amaterasu is coming?
Putting Jiraiya against Itachi, people immediately assume that Jiraiya won't be looking Itachi in the eyes.

Itachi always spwes some stupid speech before using Amaretsu, or he simply says the name of the technique before he uses it. All Jir needs to do is read body movements and be ready for Itachi to use amaretsu and he'll block it easily and maybe if he's lucky Itachi will lose his vision for a moment and stumble into the barrier :P

[qiote]Then, how will he know that Amaterasu is coming and prepare the frog's stomach to avoid it?[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't it just be more simple to use his barrier? Amaretsu will just chew its way through the stomach like last time. He'd use The swamp or frogs stomach to stop Susano from having a chance at hitting him, although swamp of the underworld would be a better technique for this. Oh for the record if Itachi brings out Susano I doubt he can let an Amaretsu go with how bad of shape he is in once he uses Susano (I've proven that it takes a lot out of his body to use Susano)

Smiley

09-26-2008, 08:41 PM

Its not an ordinary swamp, or Pein would have just walked out of it.
Point null.

Once you sink, you are stuck, yes.
But Itachi won't sink.
He will jump up when he reads Jiraiya's hand seal, channel chakra in his feet, land on the swamp and walk over it.

Sure sharingan can see it, but that doesn't mean Itachi's reaction speed is as fast as his Hair jutsu which is Jir's fastest and widest range attack.

And yet, Pein had time to summon.
That means that if you can see it, which Itachi can with his Sharingan, he will be able to avoid it.

Itachi has one thing going for him and that's his MS other than that he's a bit lacking, good at genjutsu, ok at taijutsu, ninjutsu is lacking and stamina is horrible. He's not amazing unless he has the MS.

Jir has his sage mode, summoning techniques (Itachi's comes from his ms), ransagen, toad techniques, fire techniques, genjutsu and a few others. Over all hes a far better ninja and out does Itachi in everything except Genjutsu by more than just a little and as soon as Sage mode is activated his abilities increase ten fold. Sure Itachi has his MS HAX but that's it and as soon as his stamina wears out (which doesn't take long) he's screwed.

Just because Jiraiya has more techniques doesn't mean he's better.
If we were judging strength by number of learned techniques Kakashi would be the strongest character in the manga.

I agree, but we have seen time and time again that rank means very little. Hell Naruto's taken out s-class criminals before and he's no where near that kind of rank. We have also seen S-Class criminals take out Kage and Sannin take out Kage. Rank is a pointless argument.

..Which was exactly my point?
Dash said that Jiraiya would win because he's one of the sennin.
My post was a reply on that.

Itachi always spwes some stupid speech before using Amaretsu, or he simply says the name of the technique before he uses it. All Jir needs to do is read body movements and be ready for Itachi to use amaretsu and he'll block it easily and maybe if he's lucky Itachi will lose his vision for a moment and stumble into the barrier :P

He never gave a speech before using Amaterasu.
If he says its name, it doesn't help Jiraiya because he doesn't know about Amaterasu. Although I don't think he ever said it before shooting it.
Sasuke read his hand seals thanks to Sharingan and started moving before Itachi opened his eye, knowing that he wouldn't be able to avoid it if Itachi focused his eye on him.

If Jiraiya isn't looking him in the eyes, he'll get burnt with Amaterasu.
If he is, then he'll fall for Tsukoyomi or Sharingan genjutsu.

[ Oh for the record if Itachi brings out Susano I doubt he can let an Amaretsu go with how bad of shape he is in once he uses Susano (I've proven that it takes a lot out of his body to use Susano)

Susano'o is just in case, if all other attacks fail.
And if he is healthy he'll be able to maintain Susano'o for more time.

D.I.Y Death

09-26-2008, 08:50 PM

Once you sink, you are stuck, yes.
But Itachi won't sink.
He will jump up when he reads Jiraiya's hand seal, channel chakra in his feet, land on the swamp and walk over it.

And yet, Pein had time to summon.
That means that if you can see it, which Itachi can with his Sharingan, he will be able to avoid it.

Just because Jiraiya has more techniques doesn't mean he's better.
If we were judging strength by number of learned techniques Kakashi would be the strongest character in the manga.

..Which was exactly my point?
Dash said that Jiraiya would win because he's one of the sennin.
My post was a reply on that.

He never gave a speech before using Amaterasu.
If he says its name, it doesn't help Jiraiya because he doesn't know about Amaterasu. Although I don't think he ever said it before shooting it.
Sasuke read his hand seals thanks to Sharingan and started moving before Itachi opened his eye, knowing that he wouldn't be able to avoid it if Itachi focused his eye on him.

If Jiraiya isn't looking him in the eyes, he'll get burnt with Amaterasu.
If he is, then he'll fall for Tsukoyomi or Sharingan genjutsu.

Susano'o is just in case, if all other attacks fail.
And if he is healthy he'll be able to maintain Susano'o for more time.
I really don't feel like getting into this. I'm going to make an executive decision and say I'm right. You have valid points but you also are missing a TON of information and are making a lot of assumptions. So rather than have me explain something I really don't care about how about you go read the entire shippuuden series again because you definitely need to do some refreshing.

vane

09-26-2008, 08:51 PM

If he says its name, it doesn't help Jiraiya because he doesn't know about Amaterasu.
Actually Jiraiya sealed those black flames from back in there first encounter. Jiraiya knows about the black flames.

MinatoNamikaze

09-26-2008, 09:24 PM

Now Im not jumping in right now. But we have already debated this. Basically you just brought it back full circle. I have already gave you proof and a lot of the times you agreed with me about the Amaterasu thing (not that you thought I was right. BUt about a time or 2 that Jiraiya can avoid Amaterasu). So bringing it up now is kinda pointless. So far the only tech that you wont give up on is Susanoo and you should stick to that in this case. Because you are just brining up old facts that will get proven wrong and wrong again, and then just bring back up later when you feel like someones forgot.

Ok I dont remeber saying he would avoid amateratsu. Prove to how. Its unaboidable and jiriya has nothing to "block" it with. Its as simple as that. And what about the fact that Gai is the only one fast enough to fight somone while only looking at their feet. Jiriya cant so unless he looks into Itachis eyes and gets hit by tsukiyomi, he will have to look at his feet and not see amateratsu coming (not thats theres anything he can do about it)

Soul

09-26-2008, 09:26 PM

vane

09-26-2008, 09:41 PM

Ok I dont remeber saying he would avoid amateratsu. Prove to how. Its unaboidable and jiriya has nothing to "block" it with. Its as simple as that. And what about the fact that Gai is the only one fast enough to fight somone while only looking at their feet. Jiriya cant so unless he looks into Itachis eyes and gets hit by tsukiyomi, he will have to look at his feet and not see amateratsu coming (not thats theres anything he can do about it)

Aaww come on. Just drop it. I already told you. Frogs belly will work good enough. Then theres the sages barrier that D.I.Y also brought up. Also Jiraiya is very fast once in HM. So like I said you are bringing up old facts that have been proven wrong and its staring to get pointless. I mean everytime someone comes up with a counter you just say no or just change the whole move and that gets proven wrong then you just bring up another all the way up till you bring it back around full circle. And its starting to get old debateing this.

Smiley

09-26-2008, 10:08 PM

I really don't feel like getting into this. I'm going to make an executive decision and say I'm right. You have valid points but you also are missing a TON of information and are making a lot of assumptions. So rather than have me explain something I really don't care about how about you go read the entire shippuuden series again because you definitely need to do some refreshing.

Lol @ hypocrisy.
Up until now you've been saying how we, Itachi supportes have denied everything thrown at us saying how we're right without justifying our points.

Now you're doing the same thing. Leaving the thread saying how you're right.
Either prove me wrong or shut up. :)

Actually Jiraiya sealed those black flames from back in there first encounter. Jiraiya knows about the black flames.

Yes, he knows about the black flames.
But name "Amaterasu" doesn't mean anything to him.
If Itachi yells "AMATERASU!" Jiraiya won't know that it's the black flames coming at him.

And I don't remember Itachi screaming the technique's name before shooting it at Sasuke.

I agree stop making assumptions.

What are my assumptions?
The opposite side has made many more assumptions.

Saying how swamp of the underworld is unavoidable, especially when it's the skilled Sharingan user we're talking about.
I just find it funny.

For god sake, itachi only has like 18/20 years of experience and jiraiya has had 53 years of experience.

Oro had 40+ years of experience.
Itachi was 11.

Oro got wtfpwned.
Same was the second time.(except they were both older).

Experience is important yes, but you can't say "Jiraiya will win because he's the sennin and has more experience". ;)

Aaww come on. Just drop it. I already told you. Frogs belly will work good enough. Then theres the sages barrier that D.I.Y also brought up. Also Jiraiya is very fast once in HM. So like I said you are bringing up old facts that have been proven wrong and its staring to get pointless. I mean everytime someone comes up with a counter you just say no or just change the whole move and that gets proven wrong then you just bring up another all the way up till you bring it back around full circle. And its starting to get old debateing this.

If Itachi isn't looking Jiraiya in the eyes, how is going to know that Amaterasu is coming?

vane

09-26-2008, 10:14 PM

If Itachi isn't looking Jiraiya in the eyes, how is going to know that Amaterasu is coming?
Well Im sure that a giant black flame comeing your way isnt that obvious. You know with the heat and the giant black thing comeing your way. Yeah that is just invisible.

Smiley

09-26-2008, 10:25 PM

Well Im sure that a giant black flame comeing your way isnt that obvious. You know with the heat and the giant black thing comeing your way. Yeah that is just invisible.

lol :xd:
Jiraiya's only chance is to start moving before Itachi opens his eye, like Sasuke did, otherwise he is set on fire as soon as Itachi focuses his eye on him.
And since Jiraiya isn't looking him in the eyes..

Soul

09-26-2008, 10:25 PM

Oro had 40+ years of experience.
Itachi was 11.

Oro got wtfpwned.

Yea but, Orochimaru is weaker than jiraiya.
Orochimaru is the weakest sannin out of all of them.
Orochimaru doesnt even deserve the title ''sannin'' anyways.

Experience is important yes, but you can't say "Jiraiya will win because he's the sennin and has more experience".

And you can't say Itachi will win because you think so.

Your basically saying sasuke could beat jiraiya.

Just because they have sharingan, and amaterasu?

Strategy counts to you know.

Itachi uses up to much chakra and stamina most of the time.

Jiraiya can keep avoiding his attacks until itachi is tired.

If itachi was to use amaterasu, Jiraiya could just go undergroud, like sasuke did. Jiraiya then can come back up and use ultimate rasengan and bam.

Smiley

09-26-2008, 10:49 PM

Yea but, Orochimaru is weaker than jiraiya.
Orochimaru is the weakest sannin out of all of them.
Orochimaru doesnt even deserve the title ''sannin'' anyways.

Hanzou disagrees with you. :p
He's the sennin like Jiraiya, whether you like it or not.

And you can't say Itachi will win because you think so.

And I never have.
I've stated my reasons and countered other people's points on this subject numerous times, and not just on this thread.

Itachi uses up to much chakra and stamina most of the time.

Jiraiya can keep avoiding his attacks until itachi is tired.

If itachi was to use amaterasu, Jiraiya could just go undergroud, like sasuke did. Jiraiya then can come back up and use ultimate rasengan and bam.

One big WUT!
Firstly, Jiraiya has never used Earth decapitiation.

Sasuke never went underground to avoid Amaterasu, nor does he use doton element. He used Orochimaru's Kawarimi which Jiraiya doesn't have.

Soul

09-26-2008, 10:58 PM

Hanzou disagrees with you.
He's the sennin like Jiraiya, whether you like it or not.

Guess what, I disagree with Hanzou.:^^:

One big WUT!
Firstly, Jiraiyas ha never used Earth decapitiation.

Sasuke never went underground to avoid Amaterasu, nor does he use doton element. He used Orochimaru's Kawarimi which Jiraiya doesn't have.

Jiraiya never used earth decapitiation, your right on that. But he's able to SMASH underground (http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000378/03.jpg)

Smiley

09-26-2008, 11:06 PM

Guess what, I disagree with Hanzou.:^^:

Guess what? You can't disagree with the manga.
Tsunade, Orochimaru and Jiraiya are sennin.

Jiraiya never used earth decapitiation, your right on that. But he's able to SMASH underground (http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000378/03.jpg)

I don't see Jiraiya smashing underground on that one? :huh:
Look, it wouldn't be a problem for Jiraiya to block Amaterasu with his barrier or frog's stomach but the prob is he won't even know that Amaterasu is coming, because unlike Sasuke, he can't look Itachi into the eyes.

0ba

09-26-2008, 11:12 PM

Once you sink, you are stuck, yes.
But Itachi won't sink.
He will jump up when he reads Jiraiya's hand seal, channel chakra in his feet, land on the swamp and walk over it.That seems like an assumption, imo, it's not show that it'd be so easy to avoid it, and jumping might not be the best thing to do, it leaves you open to attack.

And yet, Pein had time to summon.
That means that if you can see it, which Itachi can with his Sharingan, he will be able to avoid it.It's not how fast you SEE it, but how fast you can AVOID it. Itachi isn't known for his speed, apart from hand seals.

Just because Jiraiya has more techniques doesn't mean he's better.
If we were judging strength by number of learned techniques Kakashi would be the strongest character in the manga.That does play a major part, though, considering the fact that apart from the MS, Itachi has no other good techniques. (Great ball jutsu, fire balls, and clones?)

He never gave a speech before using Amaterasu.
If he says its name, it doesn't help Jiraiya because he doesn't know about Amaterasu. Although I don't think he ever said it before shooting it.
Sasuke read his hand seals thanks to Sharingan and started moving before Itachi opened his eye, knowing that he wouldn't be able to avoid it if Itachi focused his eye on him.Jiraiya sealed the flames earlier, in a scroll when Itachi used it to escape from the frog belly. He would know SOMETHING about it at least. And since we're assuming, and that the Amaterasu appears where Itachi is looking, and not propelled or anything, that it can be blocked with paper, a clone, or anything else to block what he's looking at. Unavoidable, but can be blocked.

If Jiraiya isn't looking him in the eyes, he'll get burnt with Amaterasu.
If he is, then he'll fall for Tsukoyomi or Sharingan genjutsu.Nope. The left eye is for ninjutsu, I think, the right eye for genjutsu. I guess it's be very taxing, or impossible for him to do BOTH, especially as he closes one eye when doing either.

Susano'o is just in case, if all other attacks fail.
And if he is healthy he'll be able to maintain Susano'o for more time.He can't use it unless he uses Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi before it, I think. He can't be healthy after using both which consume alot of chakra, while fighting Jiraiya, of all people, with all his stamina, complete with hermit mode.

Soul

09-26-2008, 11:14 PM

Guess what? You can't disagree with the manga.
Tsunade, Orochimaru and Jiraiya are sennin.
Guess what? I just did. Disagreeing with Jiraiya being able to defeat itachi is also disagreeing with the manga aswell.

I don't see Jiraiya smashing underground on that one?

Wrong One.
Here's the one i was talking about
http://img55.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000378/02.jpg

Look, it wouldn't be a problem for Jiraiya to block Amaterasu with his barrier or frog's stomach but the prob is he won't even know that Amaterasu is coming, because unlike Sasuke, he can't look Itachi into the eyes.

Yes he would, It will take time for amaterasu to get jiraiya. Besides, In sage mode jiraiya is faster than the speed of light. He can than just go to a further safer area. Then use the barrier of the frogs stomach.

Smiley

09-26-2008, 11:57 PM

Besides, In sage mode jiraiya is faster than the speed of light.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/faceplam.png
I stopped reading there.
It is still debated if Naruto characters can move up to the speed of sound.
Don't let this offend you but.. You have some serious mental problems if you believe that Jiraiya has surpassed the speed of light.

I will reply on Oba's post tomorrow, I'm off for today.

vane

09-27-2008, 12:05 AM

Yeah honestly I was was agreeing with most of it (except the breaking through the ground part) then he said fast as light and I just stopped. Sorry but not light. That is just way off v.v

LaserMonkey

09-27-2008, 12:34 AM

i say :itachi: would win

Dude, you can't just say :itachi: would win. If you are, explain first.

Like Dash said, Jiraiya in Sage mode is faster than the speed of light. Do you really think Itachi can beat Jiraiya. Itach is good. Itachi has Tsukoyomi, if i remember correctly, Jiraiya knows how to avoid the MS. correct me if i am wrong.

Soul

09-27-2008, 01:20 AM

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/faceplam.png
I stopped reading there.
It is still debated if Naruto characters can move up to the speed of sound.
Don't let this offend you but.. You have some serious mental problems if you believe that Jiraiya has surpassed the speed of light.

I will reply on Oba's post tomorrow, I'm off for today.

Not in the speed of light but he's fast.

Like at the time when he used the ultimate rasengan, he disappeared and came up to pein's face within a second.

Here's proof (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/12/)

It was either teleportion or speed. either way like i said, he could go to a further safer area and use his barrier.

The speed of light thing was my mistake.

No offence taken.

except the breaking through the ground part

Why in the world do you disagree with that?

It may be lame, but its strategy.

Besides jiraiya probably does know how to use earth decapitation.

If sasuke can do it, Jiraiya can do it too.

Jiraiya is able to use earth element jutsus too.

If you were Jiraiya and you were about to get hit by black flame, knowing your able to smash through the ground, wtf would you do?

1. Stand their in black flames

2. Avoid the flames by going underground.

If you have a another way to avoid it, please tell me.
Amaterasu basically follows you wherever your body goes, so theres no choice but to do go underground if your not able to use earth decapitation. I don't have a mental problem, I just have common sense.

Anyways, I think jiraiys is fast enough to do barrier jutsu before the amaterasu can even hit him. If it's a little to fast and jiraiya can't do it on time, like i said he could go underneath.

You underestimated Jiraiya
(Toward smiley If you agree with jiraiya beating itachi than all of this isnt toward you}

Smiley

09-27-2008, 10:26 AM

That seems like an assumption, imo, it's not show that it'd be so easy to avoid it, and jumping might not be the best thing to do, it leaves you open to attack.

If he is in Susano'o, for which Swamp of the underworld was meant to beat, then nothing Jiraiya casts at him will work.

It's not how fast you SEE it, but how fast you can AVOID it. Itachi isn't known for his speed, apart from hand seals.

Speed of hand seals + Shunshin = Speed
His Shunshin is an instant.

That does play a major part, though, considering the fact that apart from the MS, Itachi has no other good techniques. (Great ball jutsu, fire balls, and clones?)

Raven Bunshins, Sharingan, the greatest speed of hand seals in the manga, one of the highest level Shunshins in the manga, finger/crow genjutsu, Sharingan genjutsu, one handed hand seals etc.

Jiraiya sealed the flames earlier, in a scroll when Itachi used it to escape from the frog belly. He would know SOMETHING about it at least. And since we're assuming, and that the Amaterasu appears where Itachi is looking, and not propelled or anything, that it can be blocked with paper, a clone, or anything else to block what he's looking at. Unavoidable, but can be blocked.

I agree.
But if he doesn't know that it's coming he won't be able to block it.

Nope. The left eye is for ninjutsu, I think, the right eye for genjutsu. I guess it's be very taxing, or impossible for him to do BOTH, especially as he closes one eye when doing either.

Well what's your point? For all Jiraiya knows he musn't look him into the eyes or he'll fall for Sharingan genjutsu/Tsukoyomi.
He's either going to look into his eyes the whole time, or not at all.

He can't use it unless he uses Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi before it, I think.

Manga page please.

Guess what? I just did. Disagreeing with Jiraiya being able to defeat itachi is also disagreeing with the manga aswell.

No..? It hasn't been said that Jiraiya> Itachi so no.

Not in the speed of light but he's fast.

OK.

Like at the time when he used the ultimate rasengan, he disappeared and came up to pein's face within a second.

Here's proof (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/377/12/)

It was either teleportion or speed. either way like i said, he could go to a further safer area and use his barrier.

You're missing the point.
He has other ways of blocking Amaterasu.
Frog's stomach or barrier jutsu would do good.

But he isn't looking Jiraiya into the eyes so how is he going to know that Amaterasu is coming?

If sasuke can do it, Jiraiya can do it too.

Sasuke can't do it `-_-

If you were Jiraiya and you were about to get hit by black flame, knowing your able to smash through the ground, wtf would you do?

Exactly, if I were Jiraiya and I KNEW I was about to get burnt with black flames I would try to do something to block it.

But he doesn't know that Amaterasu is coming.

You underestimated Jiraiya

No, I didn't. ^^

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 10:31 AM

Just to point it out but in the manga when Itachi uses Amaretsu, he always closes his eyes and then yells amaertsu. If I was fighting someone that used eye techniques and I saw their movement speed drop and then I heard him take a breath I'd instantly use a technique to obstruct his line of sight. That's just common sense and Jir has the capability and the knowledge as one of the strongest Ninja in Naruto to accomplish this.

If you don't believe me look it up, I'm sick of proving people wrong and doing all the work.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 10:41 AM

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 10:46 AM

His movement speed doesn't drop. He does hand seals.
For all Jiriaya knows it could be just another Katon jutsu.

He stops moving when he uses his eye techniques. He doesn't run around when he uses Amaretsu, he's always standing completely still, just like Sauske. The only exception Ive seen to this is kakashi but he doesn't use amaretsu and the technique doesn't appear to be anything remotely similar to any other MS abilities. If you don't believe me look it up, there's tons of proof everywhere and considering how Itachi fights if he stops moving that's a very, very bad thing because he's either getting ready for an MS technique, his genjutsu or another long boring speech.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 11:08 AM

He stops moving when he uses his eye techniques. He doesn't run around when he uses Amaretsu, he's always standing completely still, just like Sauske. The only exception Ive seen to this is kakashi but he doesn't use amaretsu and the technique doesn't appear to be anything remotely similar to any other MS abilities. If you don't believe me look it up, there's tons of proof everywhere and considering how Itachi fights if he stops moving that's a very, very bad thing because he's either getting ready for an MS technique, his genjutsu or another long boring speech.

In the frog's stomach that day he was running through the belly while charging Amaterasu.

He stopped moving to do a hand seal vs. Sasuke, but who doesn't?
He stopped moving around when he did a normal Katon seal too.

And yet, he moved around to avoid Sasuke's shurikens and fireballs.
To quote you,
Point = null. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/edufe7.gif

0ba

09-27-2008, 12:52 PM

If he is in Susano'o, for which Swamp of the underworld was meant to beat, then nothing Jiraiya casts at him will work.Doesn't mean he can walk over water or float or anything else. That canges the terrain in Jiraiya's favour, harder to see him, a better place to go into Sage mode, and can pop out of anywhere.

Speed of hand seals + Shunshin = Speed
His Shunshin is an instant.Fastest hand seals, I'll give you that, but he's nowhere as fast as Jiraiya, and most of his techniques require him to stop (Great Fireball, Tsukuyomi, Amatersu, Susano'o) etc, so keeping him on his toes always moving and attacking would make it easier to beat him.

Raven Bunshins, Sharingan, the greatest speed of hand seals in the manga, one of the highest level Shunshins in the manga, finger/crow genjutsu, Sharingan genjutsu, one handed hand seals etc.The Sharingan genjutsu's would be easily dispelled by Jiraiya, the Raven bunshins would not fool him, too easy to deal with, and his shunshin being one of the highest level? Sage mode Jiraiya would be much faster.

I agree.
But if he doesn't know that it's coming he won't be able to block it. Well what's your point? For all Jiraiya knows he musn't look him into the eyes or he'll fall for Sharingan genjutsu/Tsukoyomi.
He's either going to look into his eyes the whole time, or not at all.Looking into Itachi's eyes doesn't put you into genjutsu, he has to USE the technique while you're looking at his eyes. Keeping him moving and bombarding him with techniques, a very fast paced battle where Itachi can't stand still would be too much for him to handle, as he doesn't have much stamina either. You don't know how great an advantage turning the battlefield into a swamp would be for Jiraiya.

0ba

09-27-2008, 12:58 PM

In the frog's stomach that day he was running through the belly while charging Amaterasu.That's true. But he probably needs to stop during battle to aim better, since it's usually against a moving opponent, I guess.

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 01:06 PM

In the frog's stomach that day he was running through the belly while charging Amaterasu.

He stopped moving to do a hand seal vs. Sasuke, but who doesn't?
He stopped moving around when he did a normal Katon seal too.

And yet, he moved around to avoid Sasuke's shurikens and fireballs.
To quote you,
Point = null. http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/edufe7.gif

The hell...this isn't Dragon Ball Z, you don't charge an ability (according to the manga, the anime does have kakashi charge his MS). You fill a prerequisite and then you do the move. Usually the prerequisite it hand signs, closing an eye or using one jutsu to use another jutsu.
Itachi has demonstrated bursts of agility and speed but his stamina is really, really low. He can't keep that up for long and as proof read the Sauske/Itachi battle again. That was one of the shorter battles and while it had some awesome sharingan vs sharingan action it showed Itachi's limits, his weaknesses and the fact that he has very little stamina.

Sorry but your point is still null and void.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 01:16 PM

The hell...this isn't Dragon Ball Z, you don't charge an ability (according to the manga, the anime does have kakashi charge his MS). You fill a prerequisite and then you do the move. Usually the prerequisite it hand signs, closing an eye or using one jutsu to use another jutsu

Who cares? You got my point, Itachi can move while preparing his Amaterasu.

Itachi has demonstrated bursts of agility and speed but his stamina is really, really low. He can't keep that up for long and as proof read the Sauske/Itachi battle again. That was one of the shorter battles and while it had some awesome sharingan vs sharingan action it showed Itachi's limits, his weaknesses and the fact that he has very little stamina.

Sorry but your point is still null and void.

No, it's not.
What you wrote above had nothing to do with my post.

Itachi's stamina is not really impressive, I know.
But we saw what he was capable of, and that's enough to beat Jiraiya.
Lots of bunshins, Katons, genjutsus and MS x 4.

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 01:30 PM

Who cares? You got my point, Itachi can move while preparing his Amaterasu.

Do tell me, what doe he prepare, A pot of water to boil potatoes in?

[quote]
No, it's not.
What you wrote above had nothing to do with my post.

Then why did you bring up his speed?

Itachi's stamina is not really impressive, I know.
But we saw what he was capable of, and that's enough to beat Jiraiya.
Lots of bunshins, Katons, genjutsus and MS x 4.

You have to be kidding. He used 9 techniques and he was finished. We have seen Jir pushed to his limits against Pein and he had shown us that he can inflict massive damage in sage mode, has extreme speed, endurance, a better list of jutsu to use and even genjutsu that is extremely powerful.

And you say Itachi wins because of what? He can create fire 2-3 times in a battle, use genjutsu wich Jir is trained to break out of, Susano, which essentially kills Itachi and a few crappy fire techniques?

Itachi is slow with everything but hand signals, has 2 godly moves that can be avoided(Susano) or blocked (Amaretsu) and a few fire techniques that travel slowly.

Now since you're going blind just like Itachi lets go over what Jiraiya can do.
Ransagen, Toad Stomach, Swamp, Deep fryer, Toad Song, Sage mode, Hair Needle Barrage, Barrier. And he used almost every last one of these moves in a single battle, took one hell of a beating, was stabbed, had his throat crushed and still managed to permanently kill one of Pein's bodies while killing 3 others? Sorry but I don't buy it. Your argument is weak, boring and reeks of pubescent drivel.

Muffin

09-27-2008, 02:01 PM

Now since you're going blind just like Itachi lets go over what Jiraiya can do.
Ransagen, Toad Stomach, Swamp, Deep fryer, Toad Song, Sage mode, Hair Needle Barrage, Barrier. And he used almost every last one of these moves in a single battle, took one hell of a beating, was stabbed, had his throat crushed and still managed to permanently kill one of Pein's bodies while killing 3 others? Sorry but I don't buy it. Your argument is weak, boring and reeks of pubescent drivel.

Your also forgetting the toad silhouette technique, the ability to permanently turn someone into a toad, wild lions mane technique and even the underworld spines. Not to mention he has got some serious fortitude in hermit mode.

But no, one can't just walk over the swamp of the underworld. It sucks the opponent down. It sucked one of Pein's bodies through the roof in the corridor they fought in. Amaterasu can also be avoided by spewing a lot of fire in Itachi's face. In the Sasuke, Itachi battle Itachi's first Amaterasu was wasted on Sasuke's katon techniques because Itachi couldn't actually see Sasuke. And i also don't see why Jiraiya's summons would be out of the equation here if Itachi uses Genjutsu on them Jiraiya can always release the genjutsu seeing as he has a tendency to ride his summons.

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 02:17 PM

Your also forgetting the toad silhouette technique, the ability to permanently turn someone into a toad, wild lions mane technique and even the underworld spines. Not to mention he has got some serious fortitude in hermit mode.

But no, one can't just walk over the swamp of the underworld. It sucks the opponent down. It sucked one of Pein's bodies through the roof in the corridor they fought in. Amaterasu can also be avoided by spewing a lot of fire in Itachi's face. In the Sasuke, Itachi battle Itachi's first Amaterasu was wasted on Sasuke's katon techniques because Itachi couldn't actually see Sasuke. And i also don't see why Jiraiya's summons would be out of the equation here if Itachi uses Genjutsu on them Jiraiya can always release the genjutsu seeing as he has a tendency to ride his summons.

THANK YOU. I was getting annoyed at smiley interruption my One Piece marathon with his crappy arguments. I'll let you and Vayne handle it until I feel motivated to dig through manga chapters and post links.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 02:25 PM

Do tell me, what doe he prepare, A pot of water to boil potatoes in?

Stop going off the subject to point out some worthless things.
You know well what I meant, he can move while performing hand seals that Amaterasu requires.

Then why did you bring up his speed?

I didn't?

And you say Itachi wins because of what? He can create fire 2-3 times in a battle, use genjutsu wich Jir is trained to break out of,

He can't break out of Tsukoyomi, or Sharingan genjutsu.

Itachi is slow with everything but hand signals

Wrong.
Did you miss the part where Itachi outmanuevered Kakashi and Kurenai with his speed again and again?

, has 2 godly moves that can be avoided(Susano) or blocked (Amaretsu) and a few fire techniques that travel slowly.

Lol @ Susano'o is easy to avoid.
Oro's hydras couldn't avoid it.
Oro couldn't.

And Jiraiya who has no knowledge about Susano'o magically can.
Oh, and on top of that, while sword of Totsuka is incredibly easy to avoid, swamp of the underworld and giant Rasengan are unavoidable?

Please..

And about Amaterasu, you're yet to answer me how he will know that Amaterasu is coming.

Now since you're going blind just like Itachi lets go over what Jiraiya can do.
Ransagen, Toad Stomach, Swamp, Deep fryer, Toad Song, Sage mode, Hair Needle Barrage, Barrier. And he used almost every last one of these moves in a single battle, took one hell of a beating, was stabbed, had his throat crushed and still managed to permanently kill one of Pein's bodies while killing 3 others?

More than half of those are hermit mode techniques.
Before saying how Jiraiya will use his sage techniques to win, tell me how Jiraiya will get his Hermit Mode ready.

THANK YOU. I was getting annoyed at smiley interruption my One Piece marathon with his crappy arguments

Again, I lol'd.
All you've been doing up until now is listing Jiraiya's techniques and calling my argument crappy.

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 02:48 PM

Stop going off the subject to point out some worthless things.
You know well what I meant, he can move while performing hand seals that Amaterasu requires.

I didn't?

He can't break out of Tsukoyomi, or Sharingan genjutsu.

Wrong.
Did you miss the part where Itachi outmanuevered Kakashi and Kurenai with his speed again and again?

,

Lol @ Susano'o is easy to avoid.
Oro's hydras couldn't avoid it.
Oro couldn't.

And Jiraiya who has no knowledge about Susano'o magically can.
Oh, and on top of that, while sword of Totsuka is incredibly easy to avoid, swamp of the underworld and giant Rasengan are unavoidable?

Please..

And about Amaterasu, you're yet to answer me how he will know that Amaterasu is coming.

More than half of those are hermit mode techniques.
Before saying how Jiraiya will use his sage techniques to win, tell me how Jiraiya will get his Hermit Mode ready.

Again, I lol'd.
All you've been doing up until now is listing Jiraiya's techniques and calling my argument crappy.
Tell you what list exactly why you think Jiraiya can't be beaten by Itachi in point form and then I'll address you. Right now your facts are skewed and you're interrupting my One Piece marathon with your bullshit, child.

Muffin

09-27-2008, 03:19 PM

Stop going off the subject to point out some worthless things.
You know well what I meant, he can move while performing hand seals that Amaterasu requires.
Jiraiya could throw a smoke bomb, a katon technique or anything to obscure Itachi's vision and Amaterasu is rendered useless. I still have not seen anything that is convincing me that Itachi would survive past the smoke bomb - Needle barrage combo. Itachi won't see it coming. If he had Byakugan maybe you could argue the case. But seeing as how the only reason Pein could counter it in time was because he actually saw it coming. Itachi doesn't have any extra vision than normal so he won't see the attack from behind.

He can't break out of Tsukoyomi, or Sharingan genjutsu.
Why wouldn't Jiraiya be able to get out of Sharingan genjutsu..?

Wrong.
Did you miss the part where Itachi outmanuevered Kakashi and Kurenai with his speed again and again?

Like how Pein was completely out maneuvered one on one against Jiraiya due to his speed? Jiraiya definitely has Itachi out done in the speed department. Itachi doesn't have the stamina to keep up the constant speed like Jiraiya does.

Lol @ Susano'o is easy to avoid.
Oro's hydras couldn't avoid it.
Oro couldn't.

And Jiraiya who has no knowledge about Susano'o magically can.
Oh, and on top of that, while sword of Totsuka is incredibly easy to avoid, swamp of the underworld and giant Rasengan are unavoidable?

Please..

And about Amaterasu, you're yet to answer me how he will know that Amaterasu is coming.

Orochimaru wasn't trying to avoid it. Orochimaru is immune to almost any and all physical harm, he's not exactly the type to panic over being stabbed by a sword. He was simply unlucky that the sword sealed him away. Jiraiya however never underestimates an opponent enough he will be extremely cautious to any of Itachi's attacks. As for swamp of the underworld it covers a massive area when Jiraiya wants it to and is almost instantaneous, Itachi will get caught in the swamp and be trapped.

More than half of those are hermit mode techniques.
Before saying how Jiraiya will use his sage techniques to win, tell me how Jiraiya will get his Hermit Mode ready.
How's Itachi gonna stop him from getting into hermit mode? If Jiraiya summons a toad Itachi's genjutsu can simply be broken when Jiraiya rides the toad.

And i know you can get a bit hot headed in arguments but as a mod i would like you both to calm down a tad bit.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 03:21 PM

Tell you what list exactly why you think Jiraiya can't be beaten by Itachi in point form and then I'll address you. Right now your facts are skewed and you're interrupting my One Piece marathon with your bullshit, child.

Tell you what, I don't give a damn.
Unless you're going to stop shitting bricks how I'm wrong and you're right without getting into details and further explanation, gtfo of my thread. Trolls are not wanted here.

Soul

09-27-2008, 03:23 PM

No..? It hasn't been said that Jiraiya> Itachi so no.

It hasn't been said Itachi>Jiraiya Either.

Your proof is lame. Just because he can make flames come out of his fucking eyes and do some susano bullshit, doesnt mean he can beat jiraiya.

You're missing the point.
He has other ways of blocking Amaterasu.
Frog's stomach or barrier jutsu would do good.
So now you agree with that idea? You said the amaterasu would come to fast for his jutsu to become sucessful.

Sasuke can't do it `-_-

You just SAID he could use earth decapitation. If sasuke can do it, Jiraiya can do it to.

wow.

Exactly, if I were Jiraiya and I KNEW I was about to get burnt with black flames I would try to do something to block it.

But he doesn't know that Amaterasu is coming.

Why would you say he could use the frogs belly, if he doesnt even know when it's coming? Sasuke avoided the amaterasu for like 2 mins then used earth decapitation. Sasuke was able to hold out that long. Meaning Jiraiya could do it much longer. MEANING he could head to itachi, and the amaterasu will follow jiraiya. Itachi will have no choice but to cancel the jutsu. I'm pretty sure itachi doesn't want to get burned.

No, I didn't. ^^

Yes, You did

^^

You fail to understand what jiraiya is capable of.

MinatoNamikaze

09-27-2008, 03:37 PM

Smiley, DIY, Muffin and Vane.

Weve been argueing about figths with Itahci for months now. I say that we stop argueing about Itachi vs jiriya and other close fights with itachi because lets face it, none of use are going to back down. we all have out opinion and were not changing each others and bad blood is starting to form between us. I am willing to settle for a tie in this Itachi fight. What do you guys say?

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 03:39 PM

Tell you what, I don't give a damn.
Unless you're going to stop shitting bricks how I'm wrong and you're right without getting into details and further explanation, gtfo of my thread. Trolls are not wanted here.

Troll eh? I don't see your list for me to specifically address so I'm not giving you the time of day until you do. Until then don't expect me to even attempt to explain myself to you in an argument.

Oh Muffin, I'm annoyed with him because he won't actually list what his argument is. He just relies on counter arguments for foothold situations. If he would actually list his argument I'd be happy to pick it apart.

Soul

09-27-2008, 03:43 PM

This thread should even be closed.

We all know jiraiya can beat itachi.

So what do you say muffin?

MinatoNamikaze

09-27-2008, 03:45 PM

^^ lol thats not very fair. I say look at post 85 and tell me what you think

Soul

09-27-2008, 03:47 PM

^^ lol thats not very fair. I say look at post 85 and tell me what you think

The problem is, We all disagree with smiley.

He's the only person who thinks jiraiya is stronger than itachi.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 03:48 PM

MinatoNamikaze

09-27-2008, 03:52 PM

I agree with smiley actually. But PLEASE READ POST 85!!!!!!!!!!!!

Muffin

09-27-2008, 03:53 PM

Troll eh? I don't see your list for me to specifically address so I'm not giving you the time of day until you do. Until then don't expect me to even attempt to explain myself to you in an argument.

Oh Muffin, I'm annoyed with him because he won't actually list what his argument is. He just relies on counter arguments for foothold situations. If he would actually list his argument I'd be happy to pick it apart.

That's fine your getting annoyed but i still must ask you to calm down as flaming other members is still not something i can just ignore and your getting really close to losing it. I suggest you just leave it for a while and relax because i really, really do not want to have to hand out infractions to either one of you.

This thread should even be closed.

We all know jiraiya can beat itachi.

So what do you say muffin?

I would love to just abuse my power and just post LOLz Jiraiya Winz Itachi is teh Suxx0r and close topics. But that wouldn't exactly be fair for anyone.

Smiley and Minato both deserve their right to input why they think Itachi would win even if i do disagree with it.

Smiley, DIY, Muffin and Vane.

Weve been argueing about figths with Itahci for months now. I say that we stop argueing about Itachi vs jiriya and other close fights with itachi because lets face it, none of use are going to back down. we all have out opinion and were not changing each others and bad blood is starting to form between us. I am willing to settle for a tie in this Itachi fight. What do you guys say?

Not on your life buddy :p

If you give up trying to say why you think Itachi will win that's fine. But I'm not about to just settle for a tie when i feel absolutely certain that Itachi can't defeat Jiraiya.

MinatoNamikaze

09-27-2008, 03:54 PM

That's fine your getting annoyed but i still must ask you to calm down as flaming other members is still not something i can just ignore and your getting really close to losing it. I suggest you just leave it for a while and relax because i really, really do not want to have to hand out infractions to either one of you.

I would love to just abuse my power and just post LOLz Jiraiya Winz Itachi is teh Suxx0r. and close topics. But that wouldn't exactly be fair for anyone.

Smiley and Minato both deserve their right to input why they think Itachi would win even if i do disagree with it.

Thats a very good post and Ill even rep you for that. Thats the way to be an MOD nice job, but please everyone READ POST 85

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 04:09 PM

And what have I been doing all these 8 pages?
I have no intention of repeating myself.
You have enough of my argument to pick apart on this thread.

I'm not reading 8 pages and picking through a pile of crap to find a few points. If I can repeat myself dozens of times it won't hurt you to form your argument into a single post.

Muffin, we haven't insulted each other...well yet at least. And I'm fairly certain that we don't have any intention of insulting each other either. So please, some people you might have to tell to calm down, but in my case that's probably the worst thing to say to me because it gets me even more riled up. Plus usually I'm pretty calm and neutral. Even if I get extremely rude I won't give into name calling, I lure my prey into name calling so I can win an argument.

MinatoNamikaze

09-27-2008, 04:14 PM

Smiley, DIY, Muffin and Vane.

Weve been argueing about figths with Itahci for months now. I say that we stop argueing about Itachi vs jiriya and other close fights with itachi because lets face it, none of use are going to back down. we all have our opinion and were not changing each others and bad blood is starting to form between us. I am willing to settle for a tie in this Itachi fight. What do you guys say?

Soul

09-27-2008, 04:16 PM

Smiley, DIY, Muffin and Vane.

Weve been argueing about figths with Itahci for months now. I say that we stop argueing about Itachi vs jiriya and other close fights with itachi because lets face it, none of use are going to back down. we all have our opinion and were not changing each others and bad blood is starting to form between us. I am willing to settle for a tie in this Itachi fight. What do you guys say?

Why would you post that again? LIke muffin said, its not your life.

So don't worry about it.

MinatoNamikaze

09-27-2008, 04:20 PM

Fine then im out. You guys keep argueing in your pointless endless battle

Soul

09-27-2008, 04:22 PM

Fine then im out. You guys keep argueing in your pointless endless battle

Ok, peace.

It well end, Don't worry about.

MinatoNamikaze

09-27-2008, 04:23 PM

trust me it wont. Its been on since April and like world war 1, noones gaining any ground

Smiley

09-27-2008, 04:24 PM

I'm not reading 8 pages and picking through a pile of crap to find a few points. If I can repeat myself dozens of times it won't hurt you to form your argument into a single post.

You had enough stuff to reply to in my last post.
But instead you gave me some one-line bullshit about how my argument is crappy.

No one is forcing you to argue. Just go and continue your one piece marathon.

Soul

09-27-2008, 04:25 PM

No one is forcing you to argue. Just go and continue your one piece marathon.

Ha, for some reason that actually made me laugh.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 04:26 PM

Ha, for some reason that actually made me laugh.

That made you laugh? 8)
You have a weird sense of humour.

Soul

09-27-2008, 04:36 PM

You have a weird sense of humour.

I didn't laugh laugh, I kind of just smiled laugh if you know what i mean.

even when its something positive, you always want to insult me.

at least i have a sense of humor anyways.

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 04:41 PM

You had enough stuff to reply to in my last post.
But instead you gave me some one-line bullshit about how my argument is crappy.

No one is forcing you to argue. Just go and continue your one piece marathon.

Quit your crap and post a solidified argument. Seriously, I want to squash your argument in one go rather than arguing with you for days on end about this. So compile your list and post it so I can make this brief.

I am watching my marathon, in between episodes I check for replies. Hopefully you get over yourself and post the list so I can nail your ass to the wall along with vane and Muffin.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 04:47 PM

Quit your crap and post a solidified argument. Seriously, I want to squash your argument in one go rather than arguing with you for days on end about this. So compile your list and post it so I can make this brief.

I am watching my marathon, in between episodes I check for replies. Hopefully you get over yourself and post the list so I can nail your ass to the wall along with vane and Muffin.

Confident about winning, eh? 8)
You will nail my.. ass.. to the wall.

How about you writting your own list? Because all you've been doing is listing Jiraiya's attacks.
If you're so confident about Jiraiya winning it shouldn't be a problem for you.

I'm too tired to think now.
I will probably do it later.

I didn't laugh laugh, I kind of just smiled laugh if you know what i mean.

even when its something positive, you always want to insult me.

at least i have a sense of humor anyways.

That was positive? O....k.
And I didn't want to insult you, sorry if I did.

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 05:52 PM

1. Itachi has always avoided battle with Jiraiya.
2.Jiraiya fought pein and was winning until bodies were revived, Pein stated that he would have died if not for his secret...do you suggest that Itachi is stronger than Pein? (keep in mind the argument that everyone has their weakness isn't valid here since Pein has control over all elements and therefore has the advantage in any situation when it comes to Jutsu)
3.Sage Mode which increases his strength, durability, speed and jutsu drastically.
4. Jiraiya has knowledge of Itachi's Amaretsu through capturing it and has previous knowledge with the other MS abilities other than Susano.

Here's a list of Jiraiya's jutsu.

* Twin Rasengan (a ransagen in each hand)
* Frog Conversion Technique (Captures the enemy inside of a toad)
* Barrier: Dome Method Formation (Allows for detection of any enemy in the dome)
* Barrier: Toad Gourd Prison (Digests the enemy captured within it)
* Fire Sealing Method (can be used to seal amaretsu and in this battle to minimize its damage)
* Summoning: Toad Shop Technique (not useful for this battle)
* Hermit Mode (increases his attributes tenfold and allows him to use senjutsu)
*****************senjutsu list***********************
* Hermit's Art: Hair Needle Barrage (fastest attack Jir has and covers a wide range)
* Super Great Ball Rasengan (effects unknown, but is only available with Senjutsu making it extremely powerful)
* Hermit's Art: Boiling Oil (Fire, Wind, Oil attack. Spews burning oil that is blown in a large area)
* Hermit's Art: Deep Fryer (same thing as above with longer range)
* Kaneshibari Genjutsu (powerful genjutsu that traps the targets mind and body in a genjutsu)
***********************End of Senjutsu List*****************
* Hiding in a Toad Technique (hides in toad)
* Wild Lion's Mane Technique (hair is used to capture the enemy and can be used to impale the enemy as well)
* Rasengan (you know what this is)
* Demon Fox Chakra Seal (Given to kakashi)
* Finger Engraving Seal
* Earth Release: Swamp of the Underworld (Traps enemies in the swamp, swamp size is only limited by the chakra used)
* Needle Guardian (protects Jir with his hair, forming spikes around his body)
* Shadow Clone Technique (you know what this is)
* Toad Flat Shadow Control Technique (Allows the user to control the target through their shadow. Target must be subdued)
* Summoning Technique (Toads)
* Summoning: Toad Mouth Bind (Traps opponents, Amaretsu is the only thing that can break out of it)
* Fire Release: Toad Oil Flame Bullet (only usable with Gambunta, massive flaming bullet)
* Transparent Escape Technique
* Toad Oil Projectile (can be used to hinder enemy movements)
* Five Elements Unseal
* unamed barrier used against Pein (stops all attacks, kills whatever hit it.)

Ok now that I've covered that. If Jir soaks itachi in oil he is limited to genjutsu, Susano and taijutsu. Amaretsu will possibly ignite Itachi and all of his normal fire techniques are totally out of the question for use.

From there Jir can go sage mode or summon Gambunta. Either way Itachi will be forced to use Susano extremely fast. Now Susano obviously has an extreme impact on Itachi's health so he can't keep it out indefinitely so if Jiraiya went sage mode and forced Itachi to use Susano with say Hair needle Barrage all he needs to do from there is use the genjutsu which imprisons the body and mind and use that time to use Toad Flat Shadow Control Technique. From there he just needs to make Itachi use up all his chakra or even pull out a Kunai and slit his own throat. The only flaw with a strategy like this is Itachi is a genjutsu genius. That high level toad genjutsu won't last for very long so Jiraiya has to act quickly. If that fails or if Itachi lets loose an amaretsu Jiraiya can use a shadow clone to escape the fire. If for some reason he can't do that he can use Needle Guardian and then seal the fire away within a scroll.

I'm not even getting into depth here, this is just a basic look at his techniques and a simple and effective way to take down Itachi with contingency plans to stop Amaretsu from causing massive damage.

D.I.Y Death

09-27-2008, 06:09 PM

Here's a list of itachi's techniques.

Crow Genjutsu
Sharingan (allows the user to see chakra flow and color)
Mangekyo Sharingan (allows for Itachi's 3 strongest moves)
Amaterasu (which has been proven does not burn extremely fast as when Karin was caught in Amaterasu she survived and was not consumed by the flames while burning for a few seconds)
Tsukuyomi (eye contact required, proven that it can be broken by Sauske, during the Itachi/Sauske fight, who did not have an MS)
Fire Release: Phoenix Immortal Fire Technique (multiple katon technique)
Water Release: Water Fang Bullet (creates water spikes around the target, requires enough water near by)
Crow Clone Technique (like shadow clone technique)
Clone Great Explosion (exploding clone)
Susano
Shadow clone
Great fireball (giant fireball)

Not too much to work with, if Jir saks Itachi in oil it removes the safe use of these abilities.

Amaterasu
Fire Release: Phoenix Immortal Fire
Clone Great Explosion
great fireball

Jiraiya is also trained to counter genjutsu so finger genjutsu won't work.

Lets see what Itachi's list looks like now.

Sharingan (allows the user to see chakra flow and color)
Mangekyo Sharingan (allows for Itachi's 3 strongest moves)
Tsukuyomi (eye contact required, proven that it can be broken by Sauske, during the Itachi/Sauske fight, who did not have an MS)
Water Release: Water Fang Bullet (creates water spikes around the target, requires enough water near by)
Crow Clone Technique (like shadow clone technique)
Shadow Clone
Susano

Its been limited to supliment skills, one genjutsu move which can be avoided by not looking into the users eyes, one summon and a water skill which requires near by water.
That's not a very good list list of skills to hold off Jiraiya with.

Oh because the issue of Itachi sealing Jir away with Susano is going to come into play, technically genjutsu isn't a attack and if Itachi is unable to control Susano Jiraiya can then possess his shadow and release Susano and kill Itachi in whatever way he feels like it.

P.S. I'm tired so don't mind the spelling, punctuation and fragment sentences.

Soul

09-27-2008, 06:11 PM

DIY

Just killed this thread.

He killed everything.

Smiley, try talking your way out of this.:)

uchiha123123

09-27-2008, 06:36 PM

at first I would have said Itachi keep in mind i am 12.......but thanks to DIY I have changed my mind because of the facts he has just said

Smiley

09-27-2008, 08:08 PM

Ok, here is my "list".

I will start with listing Itachi's useful non-MS techniques:

-Sharingan (you know what it does, the ability to read, copy and predict movements).

-Sharingan genjutsu
You would say, useless. Jiraiya will break out of it.
BUT:

1. We see Kakashi telling Kurenai and Asuma that only another Sharingan user could deal with it. [1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/15/)] (*Note: Kakashi didn't know about Tsukoyomi at that point).

2. We also see Chiyo saying that when you're alone against Sharingan user, "you're sure to flee". In case you have a partner with you, he can get behind the Sharingan user and dispell genjutsu. [1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/257/06/)]

3.Deidara had to train his eye for years to be able to fight Itachi again.
(*Note, Itachi used regular Sharingan genjutsu vs. Deidara, not Tsukoyomi).

4. Gai, after arriving at the battle scene vs. Kisame and Itachi, states that over the years he has come up with the method to fight the Sharingan user: looking at their feet.
Why is looking at their feet necessary, if it can be broken with stopping the chakra flow in your head?

5.Orochimaru couldn't break it.

-Shunshin.
Itachi has an incredibly high-level Shunshin.

Example 1. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/141/16/)

Example 2. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/09/)

Itachi seemingly "teleports" behind his opponents.
This combined with Kage bunshin explosion or kunai can be very deadly.

-Hand seals
You're aware of Itachi's speed of hand seals.
With combination of Sharingan's ability to predict movements and the speed of hand seals + his high level Shunshin, Itachi can avoid even Jiraiya's fastest HM attack. (hair needle barriage).

-Finger/crow genjutsu.
It is of course not on high level as Sharingan/Tsukoyomi genjutsu but still, Naruto failed to break it with the method that Jiraiya taught him.
It could be just the fact that Naruto sucks at genjutsu.. But then again, so does Jiraiya. (except the toad's song, but it is performed by ma and pa toad, not Jiraiya)

That would be it for non-ms techniques.
Now, for the Mangekyou Sharingan, Itachi's most powerful weapon.

-Tsukoyomi.
One little glare into Itachi's eyes and you're dead.
True, you could say that Jiraiya will be avoiding an eye contact the whole battle, but I don't think it is that simple because:

1. It puts him at huge disadvantage before the battle even starts. Unlike Gai, Jiraiya doesn't have the Sharingan fighting style and can not predict movements judging from his opponent's feet.

2.Jiraiya's also at disadvantage, because, if he isn't looking at Itachi's eyes, he won't be aware when Itachi is using his doujutsu(Amaterasu) and his chances to avoid it decrease very much.

3.Tsukoyomi would do good against Jiraiya's summons.

-Amaterasu.
The strongest ninjutsu in the world, as stated by Zetsu.
The black flames appear on whatever Itachi focuses his eye on.
[1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/04/)]

In other words, Jiraiya would be set on fire, as soon as Itachi focused his eye on him.
You will say, bullshit, overestimation. Sasuke was clearly running away from it.

Here's an explanation.
First, let's list the required cirumstances under which, Sasuke was able to avoid Amaterasu.
1.He had knowledge.
He already had witnessed Amaterasu once. He knew how it works. Itachi opens hie eye, and the black flames appear on whatever he focuses his eye on.

2.He had the Sharingan, and thanks to it, he was able to start moving a moment before Itachi opened his eye. In other words, he predicted the exact moment Itachi would open his eye, and started moving a second before. [1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/)]

3. He was already immune to Sharingan genjutsu and Tsukoyomi. Thus, he could freely look into Itachi's eyes and see if Itachi is using his eye ninjutsu. Jiraiya however, doesn't have that privilege.

Possible counters: Frog's stomach, Trap Barrier jutsu.
Those would work fine, if Jiraiya knew that Amaterasu is coming.

-Susano'o
Itachi's most powerful and deadliest weapon.

True, it takes a toll on the user's body. But it wasn't the only factor that made Itachi die.
He had the decease, that Susano'o pushed too far.

Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/394/06/) is by Zetsu stated that Itachi possibly received some damage before the battle started, thus causing him to cough blood up and not dodge attacks properly.
That was the first thing that indicated Itachi was deceeased.

Then, Madara pretty much confirmed this.
Here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/14/), he talks about Itachi's decese. The picture shows Itachi coughing blood up.

I agree, it definitely takes a toll on his body. But you'll have to agree, that, had he not been deceased, he would have been able to maintain it for more time.

Sword of Totsuka which seals whatever pierces through into the genjutsu world and Yata shield that blocks every attack.
You will say that Jiraiya would be dodging sword of Totsuka easily until Susano'o at the end kills Itachi.

On this picture here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/11/)
we see Oro's hydras getting their heads ripped off one by one with the Totsuka sword.
There was also a decent distance between them.
I honestly doubt Jiraiya could easily be avoiding something that huge and fast for a long time.

Possible counters: Swamp of the underworld.
There are two ways to fight swamp of the underworld that I see at this moment.

1.Itachi would read Jiraiya's hand seal. He would see that it's a doton attack. If Susanoo's weakness is doton attacks(attacks from below) he would naturally jump up in order to avoid it.
Then, when the swamp is formed, channel chakra on his feet, land on the swamp and walk over it.

2.Shunshin.
I've already shown how great Itachi's Shunshin is. The only thing he would have to do is use it the moment before the swamp is formed. This wouldn't be a problem, considering that the Sharingan predicts movements.

Additional information:

Kisame was surprised to see that Itachi had to retreat against Jiraiya. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/07/)
That indicates that they're on similar level, even if Jiraiya could beat Itachi.

In the official English translation, Itachi even says that his fight with Jiraiya would probably end as a tie.

I will reply on DIY's above post later.

vane

09-27-2008, 08:20 PM

Here's an explanation.
First, let's list the required cirumstances under which, Sasuke was able to avoid Amaterasu.
1.He had knowledge.
He already had witnessed Amaterasu once. He knew how it works. Itachi opens hie eye, and the black flames converge on whatever he focuses his eye on.

Actually Sasuke was unconsious at that time. He couldnt have seen anything considering he was just hit with a Tsukiyomi and wasnt fit to see anything what so ever. So Sasuke didnt know anything about it, until Itachi used it to smother Sasuke's flames with it.

Here is by Zetsu stated that Itachi possibly received some damage before the battle started, thus causing him to cough blood up and not dodge attacks properly.
That was the first thing that indicated Itachi was deceeased.

Oh and as for Itachi not dodging things properly that was because he was going blind, not from the disease.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 08:23 PM

Actually Sasuke was unconsious at that time. He couldnt have seen anything considering he was just hit with a Tsukiyomi and wasnt fit to see anything what so ever. So Sasuke didnt know anything about it, until Itachi used it to smother Sasuke's flames with it.

What the..?
If he was unconsious how was he throwing shuriken and spamming Katons at Itachi :huh:

As for my post, I will later add more details about Jiraiya.

Oh and as for Itachi not dodging things properly that was because he was going blind, not from the disease.

I know.

vane

09-27-2008, 08:27 PM

What the..?
If he was unconsious how was he throwing shuriken and spamming Katons at Itachi
No you said Sasuke had seen Amaterasu before. But that is not true. The first and only time he had actually seen Amaterasu is when Itachi used it on him and he had to run away from it and only get away from it barely. I wasnt talking anything about the current fight and him being unconsious. Sasuke was surprised to see the Amaterasu himself. So Sasuke had never seen the Amaterasu before and had no idea that it was comeing.

Smiley

09-27-2008, 08:29 PM

No you said Sasuke had seen Amaterasu before. But that is not true. The first and only time he had actually seen Amaterasu is when Itachi used it on him and he had to run away from it and only get away from it barely. I wasnt talking anything about the current fight and him being unconsious. Sasuke was surprised to see the Amaterasu himself. So Sasuke had never seen the Amaterasu before and had no idea that it was comeing.

He did.
Itachi first used Amaterasu to defeat Sasuke's Katon attack, which followed by another, that was meant to hit Sasuke.

During the first attack, Sasuke learned how it works and thus, he was able to avoid it the second time.

D.I.Y Death

09-28-2008, 08:08 AM

Still waiting for your reply.

Smiley

09-28-2008, 11:11 AM

D.I.Y Death

09-28-2008, 01:51 PM

1. He has avoided it once and he was already tired from using his MS two or three times that day
2.And Madara said that had Itachi known his secret, Madara would have been dead a long time ago.

As for Pein I can't answer that until we learn more about him. But by secret he probably meant the fact that the real body is hidding somewhere controlling other bodies.
Well, then, until we see what this "final body" can do or what his secret is I can't answer that.

3.And needs a lot time to be ready.
4.The only thing he knows about Amaterasu is that it's fire, and that it's black.
That's it.
He only saw its leftovers, he doesn't even knows its name.

You mean toad's oil projectile? That's not happening.

Unless he thinks of some kind of distraction, then he can't go sage mode.
If he summons Gamabunta he'll get instantly genjutsu'd.

Other things are mostly about Hermit mode.
First tell me how he would get to hermit mode then I will continue.

How is he not soaking Jir's oil? its a technique he uses and its spewing oil, as I listed above, even if it misses and splatters the ground any fire techniques become very hazardous to use. Itachi is boned for a lot of his moves all of a sudden. It takes Jir a split second to get into Hermit Mode, He closes his eyes and opens them and he's in Hermit mode. If he really needs a distraction he just needs to summon his frog with the big shield. If he can do that in the battle with Pein he can do it in the battle with Itachi. Poof Hermit mode, Itachi is soaked in oil or the ground is covered in it preventing the use of fire techniques without burning yourself alive. After that Itachi is screwed since your entire argument pretty well relies on Amaretsu and a tiny bit on Susano.

Jir wins, Itachi is screwed.

Muffin

09-28-2008, 02:02 PM

Unless he thinks of some kind of distraction, then he can't go sage mode.
If he summons Gamabunta he'll get instantly genjutsu'd.

Other things are mostly about Hermit mode.
First tell me how he would get to hermit mode then I will continue.

Summon the toads. Dispell the genjutsu. Hermit mode isn't going to be stopped by Itachi.

D.I.Y Death

09-28-2008, 02:06 PM

How will he get into Hermit mode? Doesn't he have to be looking into Itachi's eyes for Tsyuomi (sp?) and finger genjutsu is just normal genjutsu and Jiraiya has trained himself to get out of Genjutsu. What is Itachi going to do to stop Jir from going into Hermit mode? Use amaretsu with oil all over the place? Not likely.

Oh I've listed my case and I know you're fishing for me to slip up somewhere so you can discredit me so its your turn. Ive stated some powerful points that Itachi will have to deal with along with complete lists of jutsu for both Jir and Itachi.

Smiley

09-28-2008, 05:29 PM

How is he not soaking Jir's oil? its a technique he uses and its spewing oil, as I listed above, even if it misses and splatters the ground any fire techniques become very hazardous to use. Itachi is boned for a lot of his moves all of a sudden. It takes Jir a split second to get into Hermit Mode, He closes his eyes and opens them and he's in Hermit mode. If he really needs a distraction he just needs to summon his frog with the big shield. If he can do that in the battle with Pein he can do it in the battle with Itachi. Poof Hermit mode, Itachi is soaked in oil or the ground is covered in it preventing the use of fire techniques without burning yourself alive. After that Itachi is screwed since your entire argument pretty well relies on Amaretsu and a tiny bit on Susano.

How does oil splattered over the ground prevent Itachi from using Amaterasu?
If it starts spreading towards him he can put it out or move to the spot where there is no oil.

Btw. is the Oil projectile you're referring to the one he used against Konan?

Summon the toads. Dispell the genjutsu. Hermit mode isn't going to be stopped by Itachi.

If he uses Tsukoyomi, there is no dispelling.

What is Itachi going to do to stop Jir from going into Hermit mode?

Hermit Mode needs a lot time to be ready. Like Kakashi's Kamui.
Unless you're saying that Itachi is going to sit out and let Jiraiya summon Ma and Pa then tell me what kind of distraction is he going to use.

Oh I've listed my case and I know you're fishing for me to slip up somewhere so you can discredit me

No, you wanted my reply. You got it.

so its your turn.

My turn for what? I've already posted my "list" and replied to your post.
It's your turn to reply to mine.

Muffin

09-28-2008, 06:20 PM

How does oil splattered over the ground prevent Itachi from using Amaterasu?
If it starts spreading towards him he can put it out or move to the spot where there is no oil.
Because the flames spread and converge on the target.

If he uses Tsukoyomi, there is no dispelling.

So Jiraiya summons another toad and Itachi loses a chunk of his own chakra. Either way he's not stopping Hermit mode.

D.I.Y Death

09-28-2008, 06:37 PM

How does oil splattered over the ground prevent Itachi from using Amaterasu?
If it starts spreading towards him he can put it out or move to the spot where there is no oil.

Do you understand how oil works when its on fire? The fumes are poisonous, it can't be put out with anything but chemical agents or by smothering the fire, the oil can transfer to other surfaces...its generally a huge risk to Itachi to use fire when there is oil on the battle field...yeesh I can't believe you didn't know how dangerous fire and oil is when combined.

If it ignites its almost instantaneous, it doesn't slowly spread it spreads almost immediately and Jiraiya now can just fire a blast of oil in Itachi's general direction for an oil/Amaretsu attack. Itachi isn't a moron so he won't be messing with oil and fire regardless of your opinion. If Itachi has to put out Amaretsu chances are he put it out for a good reason. He won't be using it again if he was forced to put it out the first time unless all that oil is cleaned up.

Btw. is the Oil projectile you're referring to the one he used against Konan?

Yep, that's the oil. He also uses that oil for deep fryer.

If he uses Tsukoyomi, there is no dispelling.

Tsukoyomi requires eye contact, Jiraiya does not need to look into Itachi's eyes to read his movements.

Hermit Mode needs a lot time to be ready. Like Kakashi's Kamui.
Unless you're saying that Itachi is going to sit out and let Jiraiya summon Ma and Pa then tell me what kind of distraction is he going to use.

Kakashi's kamui is instant in the manga as is Jiraiya's Hermit Mode.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/15/ there is no charging, he summons the elder frogs and goes into Hermit Mode. This point wasn't well thought through and wasn't well researched...kind of like the whole counter to the oil response you had.

Smiley

09-28-2008, 07:33 PM

Do you understand how oil works when its on fire? The fumes are poisonous, it can't be put out with anything but chemical agents or by smothering the fire, the oil can transfer to other surfaces...its generally a huge risk to Itachi to use fire when there is oil on the battle field...yeesh I can't believe you didn't know how dangerous fire and oil is when combined.

But dude, this is Narutoverse, the guy put out Amaterasu just by focusing his eyes on it.
What difference does it make if there's oil splattered around?

If it ignites its almost instantaneous, it doesn't slowly spread it spreads almost immediately and Jiraiya now can just fire a blast of oil in Itachi's general direction for an oil/Amaretsu attack.

He doesn't have time for that, nor will he know that Amaterasu is coming at him.
I'm saying that if he spreads the oil around at the beginning then Itachi would only have to move to the surface where there is no oil and fire Amaterasu at him.

Tsukoyomi requires eye contact

What I said is that he would genjutsu his summons.
You don't think Gamabunta with his giant-size eyes can just look at Itachi's feet, right?

Kakashi's kamui is instant in the manga

It is now.
I'm talking about how slow it was back in Deidara arc.

as is Jiraiya's Hermit Mode.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/15/ there is no charging, he summons the elder frogs and goes into Hermit Mode. This point wasn't well thought through and wasn't well researched...kind of like the whole counter to the oil response you had

He had his hands this way (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/02/)the whole chapter.

And reply to my post two pages before.
This is just going in circles, I mostly put all my thoughts together there.

So Jiraiya summons another toad and Itachi loses a chunk of his own chakra. Either way he's not stopping Hermit mode.

Base Jiraiya doesn't have chakra for more than one giant summon.

0ba

09-28-2008, 08:42 PM

But dude, this is Narutoverse, the guy put out Amaterasu just by focusing his eyes on it.
What difference does it make if there's oil splattered around?There'll be more fire to put out. There'll be more for Itachi to focus on, his own fire, and Jiraiya's attacks, and he'll want to keep attacking Jiraiya to prevent him from going into Sage mode as well. It would make it alot more difficult for Itachi, with his Amaterasu, Great ball and other fire attacks each with a chance to affect him.

He doesn't have time for that, nor will he know that Amaterasu is coming at him.
I'm saying that if he spreads the oil around at the beginning then Itachi would only have to move to the surface where there is no oil and fire Amaterasu at him.Doesn't have time to spit oil out, but Itachi has time to use Amaterasu? Jiraiya can use the attack a number of times, so Itachi won't ever be really safe using fire attacks.

What I said is that he would genjutsu his summons.
You don't think Gamabunta with his giant-size eyes can just look at Itachi's feet, right?And Jiraiya, being on top of them, or close to them, would easily put his chakra into Gamabunta or Gamaken, and they'd be back to normal, unless it's Tsukuyomi, which would put it under great strain or something. And that'd take alot of Itachi's little chakra. And it takes direct eye contact, so it doesn't mean it's easier, it's actually harder. Try making eye contact with an ant.

He had his hands this way (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/02/)the whole chapter.

And reply to my post two pages before.
This is just going in circles, I mostly put all my thoughts together there.True, it might take some time to go into Sage mode, he could use the frog belly, the swamp, or conceal himself in the environment.

Base Jiraiya doesn't have chakra for more than one giant summon.Where does it say so? Does he use up more than half of his chakra to summon one? He summoned Ma and Pa before going into Sage mode, they're both very powerful, so it'd probably be more difficult to summon them, unless it's purely by size.

Smiley

09-28-2008, 08:59 PM

There'll be more fire to put out.

Yes, there will be more fire, I agree.
But he doesn't need to put out all of it, just to clear his path out, then use Shunshin to escape.

Doesn't have time to spit oil out, but Itachi has time to use Amaterasu?

No, I didn't say he doesn't have time to spit out oil.
I said that he doesn't have time between the activation of Amaterasu and the moment Amaterasu reaches him.

And Jiraiya, being on top of them, or close to them, would easily put his chakra into Gamabunta or Gamaken

If he has his hands put together(which hermit mode requires) then he can't snap his summons out of it.
Or as you said, use Tsukoyomi.

Or simply use Susano'o and seal the summon.

True, it might take some time to go into Sage mode, he could use the frog belly, the swamp, or conceal himself in the environment.

If he uses frog's stomach, Itachi would seal him while he's inside.
The swamp won't work, see my explanation two pages before.
Wherever he hides himself, Itachi will see his chakra (Sasuke was able to see Deidara's bombs which were underground).

Where does it say so? Does he use up more than half of his chakra to summon one?

Well, don't you think he would've spammed summons against Pein if he could?
Also Naruto who is chakra beast was worn-out after summoning Gamabunta and had to use Kyuubi's chakra to keep fighting.

D.I.Y Death

09-28-2008, 09:29 PM

Yes, there will be more fire, I agree.
But he doesn't need to put out all of it, just to clear his path out, then use Shunshin to escape.

But with oil all over the place it limits his use of fire. That takes out most of his techniques.

No, I didn't say he doesn't have time to spit out oil.
I said that he doesn't have time between the activation of Amaterasu and the moment Amaterasu reaches him.
Itachi stops moving closes his eyes and opens them. This means he's preparing something big. Jiraiya has studied Amaretsu and would know that the minute Itachi stops moving he should go on the defense or create multiple targets with shadow clones.

If he has his hands put together(which hermit mode requires) then he can't snap his summons out of it.
Or as you said, use Tsukoyomi.

Then how did he try to punch Pein, use multiple techniques and how is Naruto able to walk around in Sage mode without his hands clasped?

Or simply use Susano'o and seal the summon.

If its gambunta that can be done if its the elder frogs good bloody luck. They put Itachi in a genjutsu and like I said befoe Jir controls Itachi through his shadow and Itachi is dead.

If he uses frog's stomach, Itachi would seal him while he's inside.
The swamp won't work, see my explanation two pages before.
Wherever he hides himself, Itachi will see his chakra (Sasuke was able to see Deidara's bombs which were underground).

Seal? Itachi doesn't have any sealing techniques that can be used in this circumstance.

Well, don't you think he would've spammed summons against Pein if he could?
Also Naruto who is chakra beast was worn-out after summoning Gamabunta and had to use Kyuubi's chakra to keep fighting.

Jiraiya also realizes his summons aren't mindless creatures and won't risk their lives when it obviously wouldn't work. Itachi on the other hand doesn't have 6 bodies, the rennegan and unique abilities like Pein does so don't even think of bringing him into this.

Itachi loses, you're grasping for ideas and you're falling short. So just give up...everyone else has given up in light of the mountain of proof provided by Vane, myself and whoever.

rush rush

09-28-2008, 09:37 PM

But with oil all over the place it limits his use of fire. That takes out most of his techniques.

Itachi stops moving closes his eyes and opens them. This means he's preparing something big. Jiraiya has studied Amaretsu and would know that the minute Itachi stops moving he should go on the defense or create multiple targets with shadow clones.

Then how did he try to punch Pein, use multiple techniques and how is Naruto able to walk around in Sage mode without his hands clasped?

If its gambunta that can be done if its the elder frogs good bloody luck. They put Itachi in a genjutsu and like I said befoe Jir controls Itachi through his shadow and Itachi is dead.

Seal? Itachi doesn't have any sealing techniques that can be used in this circumstance.

Jiraiya also realizes his summons aren't mindless creatures and won't risk their lives when it obviously wouldn't work. Itachi on the other hand doesn't have 6 bodies, the rennegan and unique abilities like Pein does so don't even think of bringing him into this.

Itachi loses, you're grasping for ideas and you're falling short. So just give up...everyone else has given up in light of the mountain of proof provided by Vane, myself and whoever.

i agree once again If Jiriya goes hermit mode Itachi is toast!

Smiley

09-28-2008, 09:42 PM

Itachi stops moving

He doesn't.
He was running through the stomach while having one of his eyes closed.

Jiraiya has studied Amaretsu

Not necessarily.

Then how did he try to punch Pein, use multiple techniques and how is Naruto able to walk around in Sage mode without his hands clasped?

I mean while PREPARING HM.
While having his hands put together.
I showed you the link, Gamaken fought Pein's summons while Jiraiya stood still having his hands put together.

Seal? Itachi doesn't have any sealing techniques that can be used in this circumstance.

Sword of Totsuka.

Jiraiya also realizes his summons aren't mindless creatures and won't risk their lives when it obviously wouldn't work. Itachi on the other hand doesn't have 6 bodies, the rennegan and unique abilities like Pein does so don't even think of bringing him into this

Pein hasn't shown the ability to fight Gamabunta-size summon.

Itachi loses

Itachi wins. ;)

, you're grasping for ideas and you're falling short.

No, I am not.

.

rush rush

09-28-2008, 10:13 PM

Sword of Totsuka.
sword of Totsuka what the heck is that proof please

NejiTaker

09-28-2008, 10:40 PM

sword of Totsuka what the heck is that proof please

Naruto Manga Chapter 392.

D.I.Y Death

09-29-2008, 08:38 AM

Hey smiley.

4. No crazed fan fanatics

7. No being unreasonable. If 10 people confirm that something is or is not true do not be a pain in the neck and keep holding on to your answer. If you still disagree then keep it to yourself UNLESS you have undeniable proof that you can paste a link to the source of the truth.

You're the only one who thinks that Jiraiya can't win. He out classes Itachi in everything but genjutsu and has a counter move for every single one of Itachi's jutsu.

I'm done arguing with you because you're stubborn, you're ignorant and you definitely aren't following those two rules. Have fun arguing with yourself because I won't give you the time of day.

Smiley

09-29-2008, 12:31 PM

You're the only one who thinks that Jiraiya can't win.

Bullshit.
On this topic, there are three people arguing on your side and me on the other. (after MinatoNamikaze and Dash left)

He out classes Itachi in everything but genjutsu and has a counter move for every single one of Itachi's jutsu.

Then name the f**** counters.
I gave you a full list of Itachi's jutsu with deep analysis which you just ignored came here and said how I am being stubborn and ignorant.

I'm laughing my ass off at your hypocrisy right now.
Leave the thread, I don't care.

You proved nothing. ;)

D.I.Y Death

09-29-2008, 01:58 PM

Hey look another dumb post from smiley.
I gave you that list you twit...don't take credit for compiling a complete list of Itachi's jutsu when I just posted it a few days ago. I've given you ample proof and you're still ignoring it. I can't stand people like you. I swear your mother must have dropped you on your head because I've given you counters to Amaertsu, "crow" genjutsu, Susano and all of his fire techs but obviously you can't read.

Time to use the ignore feature you crazed Itachi fanatic.

D.I.Y Death

09-29-2008, 02:04 PM

Smiley

09-29-2008, 08:44 PM

Hey look another dumb post from smiley.

Keep reducing yourself.
It only makes you look more pathetic.

I swear your mother must have dropped you on your head

The more retarded insults you throw in, the more I'm confident that you're just trolling.

because I've given you counters to Amaertsu, "crow" genjutsu, Susano and all of his fire techs but obviously you can't read.

Yes, you have, but I've also given reasons why those counters wouldn't work, on which you never replied, but instead started bragging how I'm stubborn and ignorant.

Oh by the way, you said something about how you will nail my ass to the wall in one post.
Now you're leaving the thread.

Ironic, huh?

Page 11 post 107. YOU DID NOT POST THIS, which is a complete list of his Jutsu, don't take credit for the work someone else has done.

What the **** are you talking about?
You know well that I was not referring to that post, but the one below that gave further analysys of his techniques and why Jiraiya's counters won't work on which you never replied.

And you still haven't addressed the genjutsu toad song that can be used

Toad's genjutsu comes with Hermit mode. And you haven't told how he will get to hermit mode yet.

, the toad shadow control

Well, is it really a problem to avoid it? I mean, it's the thing that worked on a fodder-level Amegakure ninja, you really think he would catch Itachi with it?

We never saw it in action but I guess it's similar to Shikamaru's kage mane.
Well without Shikamaru's uber intelligence that thing is pretty useless.

vane

09-29-2008, 09:34 PM

Yes, you have, but I've also given reasons why those counters wouldn't work
Not necissarily. Every time you have brought something up about Itachi say useing Amaterasu and then he countered with say the frogs stomach you just turned around and said wel then Itachi will use Susanoo instead. Which is changeing the rules and changeing what you had previously said before. That is why this debate keeps going back and forth. Because everytime a new piece of evidence is brought up against you, you just completely change what you said Itachi would do in the first place. That is what I was saying before and the reason I stopped debating it myself.

And you haven't told how he will get to hermit mode yet.

Oh but I have. I'll post it again.
Jiraiya uses frogs belly. Then uses kagebunshin while inside. Now Itachi cant see thorugh it since the frogs belly is comprised of chakra itself and Itachi can see chakra but not see through chakra to see other chakra so Itachi cant see the kagebunshins inside. The real Jiraiya uses HM and stays under cover outside of the frogs belly a little out of distance while Itachi from what you say uses Amaterasu and slowly burns the whole belly, or uses Susanoo and seals it but then Itachi will be really weak from sealing it with the fake Jiraiya inside. Now Jiraiya has had plenty of time to go into HM. Then from there Itachi has already used a Amaterasu or Susanoo and now has that much less chakra, althouh if he used Susanoo which you love so much then Itachi is now in no shape to fight and Jiraiya wins by default or just uses swamp of the underworld (which Itachi didnt notice because he thought he had already won and wont notice Jiraiya behind him doing his seals) to trap Iatchi where he stands while Jiraiya just stays out of range of the stupid sword. But if he used Amaterasu then he still thinks he has won and gives Jiraiya the advantage of surprise in which he can make another kagebunshin and use one to distract Itachi after that and make him use more chakra while the real Jiraiya uses the shadow capture thing that he does and takes control of Itachi and finishes it there.

So now Im just waiting for you to come in and say that wont work, and try to change everything like where as you already said either Susanoo or Amaterasu to get rid of the frogs belly just to probably change it to something like his explodeing kagebunshin just crashing into the side of the wall of the belly or something. But you already said one of the 2 and I still told you a way that both would not work in this case. So he will get to HM and it there wont be nothing to do to stop it. I dont really care what yo bring up afterwards but he will make it HM and he will use it to its fullest.

Smiley

09-29-2008, 09:59 PM

Not necissarily. Every time you have brought something up about Itachi say useing Amaterasu and then he countered with say the frogs stomach you just turned around and said wel then Itachi will use Susanoo instead. Which is changeing the rules and changeing what you had previously said before. That is why this debate keeps going back and forth. Because everytime a new piece of evidence is brought up against you, you just completely change what you said Itachi would do in the first place. That is what I was saying before and the reason I stopped debating it myself.

Not true.
I explained dozens of times why using frog's stomach wouldn't work to avoid Amaterasu.
Just reread my explanation on page 11.

If you disagree, explain.

Jiraiya uses frogs belly. Then uses kagebunshin while inside. Now Itachi cant see thorugh it since the frogs belly is comprised of chakra itself and Itachi can see chakra but not see through chakra to see other chakra so Itachi cant see the kagebunshins inside. The real Jiraiya uses HM and stays under cover outside of the frogs belly a little out of distance

How is Jiraiya going to make a kage bunshin and hide, without Itachi noticing?

vane

09-29-2008, 10:09 PM

Not true.

This is exactly what I said I knew you was going to do. Figures. Oh and it is true.

I explained dozens of times why using frog's stomach wouldn't work to avoid Amaterasu.
Just reread my explanation on page 11.

If you disagree, explain.

I just did. That whole paragraph of stuff I just wrote. Dont tell me you missed it. Because you did quote it.

How is Jiraiya going to make a kage bunshin and hide, without Itachi noticing?
By being inside the frogs stomach which Itachi cant see through since it is comprised of chakra, then becomeing a shadow like he did in the fight with Pein and just sneak out the back since Itachi cant see through it anyways. So he does fo into HM. And thats that, thats all there is to it.

Smiley

09-29-2008, 10:13 PM

This is exactly what I said I knew you was going to do. Figures. Oh and it is true.

No, it is not. :)
I'm not switching to Susano'o.

I just did. That whole paragraph of stuff I just wrote. Dont tell me you missed it. Because you did quote it.

But that was about Jiraiya preparing his Hermit Mode in frog's stomach.
I still don't get how Jiraiya will know that Amaterasu is coming at him, once Itachi does his hand seals.

By being inside the frogs stomach which Itachi cant see through since it is comprised of chakra, then becomeing a shadow like he did in the fight with Pein and just sneak out the back since Itachi cant see through it anyways. So he does fo into HM. And thats that, thats all there is to it.

If he makes his KB inside the frog, then, he has to make his real body escape the frog and Itachi not notice.
If he makes it outside, then Itachi will, again notice.

vane

09-29-2008, 10:22 PM

No, it is not.
I'm not switching to Susano'o.
No not this part. Not this part at all. The part where I said you would say I was wrong.

But that was about Jiraiya preparing his Hermit Mode in frog's stomach.

Exactly and thats what we're debateing right now. You just seem to have this absolute in your head that Jiraiya wont be able to go HM. And that is pretty biased to think that way. Even Pein wasnt able to stop him from doing so, and neither is Itachi. Im sure Jiraiya would use a different method of doing so but my way for now would work as well.

I still don't get how Jiraiya will know that Amaterasu is coming at him, once Itachi does his hand seals.

Thats not what we're debating right now. We're talking about how Jiraiya will go HM. And if Jiraiya is in the frogs belly and it catches fire then Im sure Jiraiya will know the instant the flames touch. Considering that it wont just burn the whole belly instanly. Because Jiraiya can sense if people are lying while trapped in the frogs belly. So Im sure he can sense that the belly is in pain.

If he makes his KB inside the frog, then, he has to make his real body escape the frog and Itachi not notice.
If he makes it outside, then Itachi will, again notice.
Not if he makes it out the back while Itachi is standing in the front. Like I said Jiraiya basically turns into a shadow and creeps out the back while Itachi is standing in the front and Jiraiya isnt standing or anything (since he is basically a shadow here) so then he can go and hide while the kagebunshin or 2 kagebunshins distract Itachi so he can stay back for a while. And since he wont have to be jumping around and avoiding attacks he will be able to concetrate more so he will go HM faster.

Smiley

09-29-2008, 10:41 PM

No not this part. Not this part at all. The part where I said you would say I was wrong.

"Not true" was meant for the part where you said that I switch to Susano'o whenever you bring up the frog's belly.

Thats not what we're debating right now.

You mentioned Amaterasu.
I'm not talking about setting the frog's stomach on fire, but using it on an actual Jiraiya.

Not if he makes it out the back while Itachi is standing in the front. Like I said Jiraiya basically turns into a shadow and creeps out the back while Itachi is standing in the front and Jiraiya isnt standing or anything (

What..? 8)
No seriously, I don't get it.
If he is in the belly, how does he get out without Itachi noticing? :/
What do you mean by "turns into a shadow"?

And since he wont have to be jumping around and avoiding attacks he will be able to concetrate more so he will go HM faster.

He wasn't jumping around and avoiding attacks, Gamaken did that.

D.I.Y Death

09-29-2008, 10:56 PM

You mentioned Amaterasu.
I'm not talking about setting the frog's stomach on fire, but using it on an actual Jiraiya.

Itachi Can't see Jir while he is in the Frog's belly so he cannot use Amaretsu directly on Jir. This removes the Amaretsu factor you're hell bent on keeping.

What..? 8)
No seriously, I don't get it.
If he is in the belly, how does he get out without Itachi noticing? :/
What do you mean by "turns into a shadow"?

Read the Pein fight again, Jiraiya has shadow techniques including traveling as a shadow and controling someone through their shadow.

Smiley

09-29-2008, 10:59 PM

Itachi Can't see Jir while he is in the Frog's belly so he cannot use Amaretsu directly on Jir. This removes the Amaretsu factor you're hell bent on keeping.

So Jiraiya is going to jump into the belly as soon as the fight starts?
That's kinda doubtful.

Read the Pein fight again, Jiraiya has shadow techniques including traveling as a shadow and controling someone through their shadow.

And how does that help him get out of the stomach without Itachi noticing?

vane

09-29-2008, 11:06 PM

"Not true" was meant for the part where you said that I switch to Susano'o whenever you bring up the frog's belly.

I didnt mean you switch to Susanoo. I said you switch techs everytime a good plan is thought out which completely changes the fight. And I used the Susanoo and Amaterasu as an example because you have switched techs before useing these 2. Like I said Amaterasu wouldnt work then you said alright then Itachi can just use Susanoo and get Jiraiya and the belly in one shot. So you switched and that leads this entire debate in circles.

You mentioned Amaterasu.
I'm not talking about setting the frog's stomach on fire, but using it on an actual Jiraiya.

So then your saying that when Jiraiya summons the frogs belly Itachi is freely going to let Jiraiya go HM now. But before you were saying that Itachi will use Amaterasu on the frogs belly to either get in or get Jiraiya out. So now you are changeing it.

What..?
No seriously, I don't get it.
If he is in the belly, how does he get out without Itachi noticing? :/

Maybe you dont understand. Ok example:
I run into a house while you are shooting at me
I walk out the back door while your still in the front
you didnt notice me getting out
now Im hideing thinking of a plan to beat you with (in which case this would be where Jiraiya goes HM)

Now do you see what I mean. Itachi will not notice Jiraya sliping out the back while he is standing in the front. And Itachi cant see through chakra, he can only see chakra through things but not actually see through chakra itself (kakashi vs Zabuza. Kakahsi couldnt see through the mist which was made of chakra).

What do you mean by "turns into a shadow"?

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/378/13/
Jiraiya blends in with the wall basically becomeing a shadow on the wall in which he could do while going out the bacl of the frog belly and Itachi wont notice it still.

He wasn't jumping around and avoiding attacks, Gamaken did that.
Exactly. And that would throw off his concentration where as when he gets out the back and has time to just sit there and take his time while the kagebunshin distracts Itachi and he will achieve HM faster.

So Jiraiya is going to jump into the belly as soon as the fight starts?
That's kinda doubtful.

If he gets a black flame shot at him he will. I mean you dont really think Itachi is going to start off in MS are you? That is doubtfull.

And how does that help him get out of the stomach without Itachi noticing?Read the rest of my post.

Smiley

09-29-2008, 11:19 PM

So then your saying that when Jiraiya summons the frogs belly Itachi is freely going to let Jiraiya go HM now. But before you were saying that Itachi will use Amaterasu on the frogs belly to either get in or get Jiraiya out. So now you are changeing it.

Well we're not playing the video game where we can't reverse what we did.
He will do what turns out to be the smartest move. DDx

By the way I'm not reversing anything.
Just saying that he would use Amaterasu on Base Jiraiya, before the frog's stomach comes into play.

Maybe you dont understand. Ok example:
I run into a house while you are shooting at me
I walk out the back door while your still in the front
you didnt notice me getting out
now Im hideing thinking of a plan to beat you with (in which case this would be where Jiraiya goes HM)

But there is no back door on a toad.
He can only get out of it through its mouth like he did in Amegakure.

If he gets a black flame shot at him he will.

Well now we're going in circles again.
If he gets Amaterasu shot at him he won't have time to react.

I mean you dont really think Itachi is going to start off in MS are you? That is doubtfull.

He goes for a fast win, if genjutsu doesn't work, he'll immediately switch to Amatearasu.

He's a type of an opponent who goes for a fast win.
He never let Orochimaru use his hydra mode.
He never let Deidara use his C4.

You see what I mean? It's not completely biased to say that Jiraiya won't achieve his hermit mode.
Jiraiya is completely opposite type of a fighter that first analyses then attacks and only when he figures that it's a serious fight goes for Hermit mode.

I mean, we know how he underestimated Itachi and Kisame that day.

vane

09-29-2008, 11:49 PM

Well we're not playing the video game where we can't reverse what we did.
He will do what turns out to be the smartest move. DDx

Still though that has been the only defense you have. Just to change everything once you alread said one thing.

He will do what turns out to be the smartest move. DDx

See now it seems like you are trying to make it sound like if this fight were to really happen in the manga. So in this case do you really think Kishi would not let Jiraiya achieve his HM in this fight? Because Im pretty sure he wouldnt let a fight like this go to waste. So bringing that up is pointless.

By the way I'm not reversing anything.
Just saying that he would use Amaterasu on Base Jiraiya, before the frog's stomach comes into play.
Itachi has never started off useing MS. Everytime he starts off trying something small. Just like every other Shinobi on the series. So point is void. Because neither will use their trump card first move.

But there is no back door on a toad.

Of course theres no back door. but Jiraiya controls the belly. He can make an opening where ever he chooses. So now your just digging deeper for more facts that are comeing up short again. So I would just go along with the fact that Jiraiya will make it into HM. Because everything you have brought up against achieveing it has failed. And I really cant believe you think he wouldnt go HM.

He can only get out of it through its mouth like he did in Amegakure.

Actually he was on the side of a mountain. He didnt come out of a mouth.Which proves he can get out at any part of the belly he chooses. So again void.

Well now we're going in circles again.

No this is where you think we're in a circle because that is your debateing style and it isnt working right now.

If he gets Amaterasu shot at him he won't have time to react.

Oh just like Itachi will have time to react to Jiraiya's fastest and most wide range attack? Just like Sasuke didnt have time to react and use shunshin to try and escape it? You are telling me that Jiraiya wont be able to react? Now thats BS. Just to feel you in. All Jiraiya has to do is stomp a foot and he is in the frogs belly. All he has to do is stomp his foot and he can sense movement. So IM pretty sure Jiraiay will have time to react just like Itachi has time to react to Jiraiya's hair needle barrage technique.

He goes for a fast win, if genjutsu doesn't work, he'll immediately switch to Amatearasu.

Again he doesnt just start off with MS. You act as if Itachi walks around with it constantly activated.

He's a type of an opponent who goes for a fast win.

Yes because he doesnt have the stamina for a lot of people.

He never let Orochimaru use his hydra mode.

Oh wow bring this up. The fact that he was already in Susanoo. The fact that Orochimaru tried some wierd technique that the Sharingan can counter against. That is pointless to bring up here aswell.

He never let Deidara use his C4.
There you go. Was Itachi useing MS at the time? No. He used a regular genjutsu. And here it seems like you are comparing Deidara to Jiraiya. That is pretty pointless.

You see what I mean? It's not completely biased to say that Jiraiya won't achieve his hermit mode.

Actually it is. Look at the examples you gave. Orochimaru got hit by Susanoo because Itachi was already useing it during that same fight. And Deidara isnt in a catagory to be compared so again pointless.

Jiraiya is completely opposite type of a fighter that first analyses then attacks and only when he figures that it's a serious fight goes for Hermit mode.

No actually again. Itachi doesnt just walk around with MS turned on 24/7. he first tries to fight without it and then uses it when he needs it (which is almost always). Which is the same thing Jiraiya does. Also Jiraiya knows Itachi is a dangerous opponent so he wont just goof off. he has already analyzed Itachi.

I mean, we know how he underestimated Itachi and Kisame that day.
For one he didnt underestimate them at all. he broke out one of his best techs for the situation. He had them both in the stomach. And you have a hard time believing that Jiraiya would be able to get Itachi in the frogs belly lol. He just didnt know that Itachi had a tech like that. And another fact is that was like 3 years ago. Jiraiya has been following Akatsuki around and learning more about them. He knows and has analyed them.

Smiley

09-30-2008, 01:25 PM

Actually he was on the side of a mountain. He didnt come out of a mouth.Which proves he can get out at any part of the belly he chooses. So again void.

Actually, he did come out of its mouth.
Link. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/371/08/)

If you're talking about the esophagus that he used to trap Itachi and Kisame, that wasn't the same thing and cannot be used in open-areas.

No this is where you think we're in a circle because that is your debateing style and it isnt working right now.

No, we are going in circles because I explained it many times over now and you're bringing it up again.

Oh just like Itachi will have time to react to Jiraiya's fastest and most wide range attack? Just like Sasuke didnt have time to react and use shunshin to try and escape it? You are telling me that Jiraiya wont be able to react? Now thats BS.

Now you're making me think that you didn't read my Amaterasu explanation at all.
There's a reason why Sasuke had time to react.
He had knowledge, Sharingan and Tsukoyomi/Sharingan genjutsu immunity.

For more details, click here. (http://www.talknaruto.com/showpost.php?p=673876&postcount=110)

All Jiraiya has to do is stomp a foot and he is in the frogs belly

It doesn't work that way in open areas.
He has to summon the toad then jump into its mouth like Sasuke did with Manda.

Again he doesnt just start off with MS. You act as if Itachi walks around with it constantly activated.

No, the whole point was that Itachi ends his fights fast and doesn't let them use their main weapons.

vane

09-30-2008, 05:21 PM

Actually, he did come out of its mouth.
Link.

If you're talking about the esophagus that he used to trap Itachi and Kisame, that wasn't the same thing and cannot be used in open-areas.

Actually that is the same thing. He just used it a different way there.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/06/
Here you see Jiraiya walking out of the side of it. Which in fact is the same thing he used in the hallway with Itachi and Jiraiya. So stop with the desperate assumptions.

Because you are now makeing assumptions that the belly and what he used in the hallway are 2 different things when in fact they are one in the same. So actually in this case you are wrong once again and fell just short of correcting me.

No, we are going in circles because I explained it many times over now and you're bringing it up again.

No we're going in circles because we arent even talking about what your talking about here. You are bringing other things up before I get to them. So again pointless.

Now you're making me think that you didn't read my Amaterasu explanation at all.
There's a reason why Sasuke had time to react.
He had knowledge, Sharingan and Tsukoyomi/Sharingan genjutsu immunity.

No if it came down to Itachi useing Amaterasu on Jiraiya then he has enough time to summon the frogs belly and block the Amaterasu altogether. And in this position Jiraiya can do the kagebunshin and go out the back giving Jiraiya the time he needs to go HM.

It doesn't work that way in open areas.
He has to summon the toad then jump into its mouth like Sasuke did with Manda.

Again, just desperate assumptions that arent true. He came out of the frogs mouth there because he wanted to sneak in. It is in fact the same thing as this
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/06/
The technique can be used in different ways.

No, the whole point was that Itachi ends his fights fast and doesn't let them use their main weapons.
Yes ans he doesnt use MS at the begining of a fight. He always starts small and works his way up. That is what every shinobi in the entire series does. So if you keep arguing this then that shows just how biased you are acting right now. Itachi didnt start off by using MS first in Sasuke, Itachi didnt start off using MS when they confronted Deidara, and he didnt start of using MS when he encountered Asuma,Kurenai, and Kakashi. So he isnt just going to start off with MS now. So your whole point is pointless.

jiraiya_sama

09-30-2008, 05:47 PM

ok so here is where it ends itachi could barely pull off all of his jutsu before he croaked what a ninja huh cant even use all of ur arsenal without dying kinda pathetic if you ask me. jiraiya on the other hand can use all of his moves without kicking the can he is compared to naruto on amount of chakra lvl he has so in a stamina battle jiraiya wins. in a battle of smarts id have to say jiraiya because of battle experiance. as far as powerful moves maybe itachi takes that one but if sasuke was able to avoid them id have to say jiraiya is quite capable. and due to the fact that itachi would need to use all of his jutsu to kill jiraiya right there itachi dies lol it gets down to itachi just cant beat him without killing himself first. so jiraiya wins lol face the facts. plus i mean i dont know how it fares in a fight but jiraiya does have that fire sealing scroll that put out amateratsu(sp?) so if he effectivly used that another one of itachi's moves is useless further making jiraiya the victor

MinatoNamikaze

09-30-2008, 05:55 PM

vane

09-30-2008, 05:59 PM

Anyway. Heres the problem with Jiriya going into the stomach. Itachi sues sasuno and kills the frog.
You dont just kill the frog. If your refering to stabbing the belly with the sword then that is pointless as I have already mentioned that he can make a kagebunshin while inside and get out the back and Itachi will have just wasted his chakra useing Susanoo in the first place thus giving Jiraiyaa victory. So using Susanoo isnt a tech Itachi should use here as I have already stated before.

If Jiriya is int eh frog, he is also sucked into Sasunos sword and put into eternal genjutsu fight over.

Not over. Because he would have just sucked up the kagebunshin and left the real Jiraiya out there going HM and useing Swamp of the Underworld and trapping Itachi where he stands because he didnt see it coming and just stands out of range of the sword and waits for Susanoo to either dispel or kill Itachi off. Either way in this case Jiraiya wins here.

jiraiya_sama

09-30-2008, 06:02 PM

wow not even going to counter that post. :blink:

Anyway. Heres the problem with Jiriya going into the stomach. Itachi sues sasuno and kills the frog. If Jiriya is int eh frog, he is also sucked into Sasunos sword and put into eternal genjutsu fight over.

lol why no counter? and why is jiraiya in the frog lol if its a one on one fight he doesnt need to be in a frog your putting jiraiya in a situation that he wouldnt need to be in

Smiley

09-30-2008, 10:15 PM

Actually that is the same thing. He just used it a different way there.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/370/06/
Here you see Jiraiya walking out of the side of it. Which in fact is the same thing he used in the hallway with Itachi and Jiraiya.

Dude, in the hotel that day he used a technique that helped him surround the inner area (walls, ceiling etc.) with frog's esophagus.
The thing he used in Amegakure is an actual frog.

How can he make an opening on a real living toad?
He has never been shown doing so.

No we're going in circles because we arent even talking about what your talking about here. You are bringing other things up before I get to them. So again pointless.

But you did bring up Amaterasu.
I don't get your point.

No if it came down to Itachi useing Amaterasu on Jiraiya then he has enough time to summon the frogs belly and block the Amaterasu altogether.

Did you even read what I wrote?
I will repeat it once but only once more.

IF he isn't looking Itachi in the eyes how will he know that Amaterasu is coming?
You never answered me this, you just keep repeating the same thing.

And you never answered the Susano'o thing either.
I just keep hearing how Jiraiya would catch him in swamp of the undeworld until Itachi tires out and dies.

uchiha123123

09-30-2008, 10:26 PM

Susano'o is bad if brought out to early it kills itachi slowly and Jiraiya can make him bring it out because he cancels out itachis fire jutsu

vane

09-30-2008, 10:42 PM

Dude, in the hotel that day he used a technique that helped him surround the inner area (walls, ceiling etc.) with frog's esophagus.
The thing he used in Amegakure is an actual frog.

How can he make an opening on a real living toad?
He has never been shown doing so.

No you are assumeing that they are 2 different techniques but they are in fact the same but used in a different way.

But you did bring up Amaterasu.
I don't get your point.

And I dont get yours so we will drop his part of this pointless bickering.

Did you even read what I wrote?
I will repeat it once but only once more.

Yes I did. Its not necissary to repeat because its not the case.

IF he isn't looking Itachi in the eyes how will he know that Amaterasu is coming?

Great now your dodging what I am saying. How do you miss a friggin giant black flame coming your way!?!?! You dont! He will see it coming and counter accordingly. So I go on to say that if Itachi can see Jiraiya using his hair needle barrage and can avoid it then Jiraiya can react in time to block Amaterasu. So which do you choose.

You never answered me this, you just keep repeating the same thing.

I did answer it and you are just ignoring it. So I will quit once again with debateing with you because it has become pointless once again. You keep with the selective reading and acting like someone didnt post anything. You arnt talking to a rookie here. I know what I have been saying and you are just dodging every thing and trying to turn it against me and it isnt working. Every thing you have brought up is good points but when someone else like myself and D.I.Y comes up with better points you choose not to listen to them and just ignore them and start repeating things and make this whole debate pointless. So I will finish what I am saying here and just call it quits because I dont like debating against biasness.

And you never answered the Susano'o thing either.

Actually I answered it a few times. But what ever. Just keep on choosing what you want to hear (or in this case read).

I just keep hearing how Jiraiya would catch him in swamp of the undeworld until Itachi tires out and dies.
One more time. Frogs belly. Then kagebunshin. Then goes out the back. Then while Itachi uses Susanoo on the belly Jiraiya is going HM. Then while Itachi thinks its over Jiraiya surprises him with Swamp of the Underworld and sticks Itachi where he stands. Game over Itachi loses and you dont want to admit it. So like I said I am finished here. I am going to try and convince someone to close this thread because it has become senseless bicker and is achieving nothing.

Smiley

09-30-2008, 10:55 PM

No you are assumeing that they are 2 different techniques but they are in fact the same but used in a different way.

..Who cares if it's the same thing.
HE can't make an opening on a LIVING TOAD, man.

Great now your dodging what I am saying. How do you miss a friggin giant black flame coming your way!?!?!

It isn't coming your way, YOU'RE SET ON FIRE.
That's why Sasuke started moving a moment before Itachi opened his eye. :oh:

So I go on to say that if Itachi can see Jiraiya using his hair needle barrage and can avoid it then Jiraiya can react in time to block Amaterasu. So which do you choose.

He has the Sharingan.
He will see it coming before it does.

Thus, he will be able to avoid it.

Then while Itachi thinks its over Jiraiya surprises him with Swamp of the Underworld and sticks Itachi where he stands.

Well now I will assume that he does somehow escape the belly from behind (although you're still to explain how).
If the belly gets sealed, Itachi would immediately notice Jiraiya that has been hiding behind it or wherever, then seal him too.

I did answer it and you are just ignoring it. So I will quit once again with debateing with you because it has become pointless once again. You keep with the selective reading and acting like someone didnt post anything. You arnt talking to a rookie here. I know what I have been saying and you are just dodging every thing and trying to turn it against me and it isnt working.

I could say the same thing for you - many times over I've talked my ass off about why frog's belly wouldn't work that everybody ignored.

MinatoNamikaze

09-30-2008, 10:55 PM

You dont just kill the frog. If your refering to stabbing the belly with the sword then that is pointless as I have already mentioned that he can make a kagebunshin while inside and get out the back and Itachi will have just wasted his chakra useing Susanoo in the first place thus giving Jiraiyaa victory. So using Susanoo isnt a tech Itachi should use here as I have already stated before.

Not over. Because he would have just sucked up the kagebunshin and left the real Jiraiya out there going HM and useing Swamp of the Underworld and trapping Itachi where he stands because he didnt see it coming and just stands out of range of the sword and waits for Susanoo to either dispel or kill Itachi off. Either way in this case Jiraiya wins here.

Well fine if we just have them creating kagebushins everytime noone gets hit. I could say Itahci uses a kagebushin while Jiriya uses his swamp of the underworld. And secondly, the frogs stomach can be countered if not by sasuno which it easily could then by amateratsu. Without it, Jiriya is susptable to amateratsu. Now explain how he gets out of amateratsu now, He has NOTHING against amateratsu.

D.I.Y Death

10-01-2008, 01:14 AM

Well fine if we just have them creating kagebushins everytime noone gets hit. I could say Itahci uses a kagebushin while Jiriya uses his swamp of the underworld. And secondly, the frogs stomach can be countered if not by sasuno which it easily could then by amateratsu. Without it, Jiriya is susptable to amateratsu. Now explain how he gets out of amateratsu now, He has NOTHING against amateratsu.

He has shadow clones . summons. genjutsu. shadow control techniques. oil (if he spews oil and gets close to itachi theres no way Itachi is going to do something stupid like a fire technique). Sorry for the lack of commas my comma key is broken.

jiraiya_sama

10-01-2008, 01:33 AM

Well fine if we just have them creating kagebushins everytime noone gets hit. I could say Itahci uses a kagebushin while Jiriya uses his swamp of the underworld. And secondly, the frogs stomach can be countered if not by sasuno which it easily could then by amateratsu. Without it, Jiriya is susptable to amateratsu. Now explain how he gets out of amateratsu now, He has NOTHING against amateratsu.

lol but your forgetting that he needs to be hit by amateratsu for it to do any damage explain a situation where he can get hit and ill show you the reason your situation wont work

Xai

10-01-2008, 08:26 AM

Swamp won't be sucking him down any more than water would.
And any average ninja can walk on water by channeling chakra in their feet.
Itachi would walk over the swamp.

since swamp f the underworld is a tech, wouldn't that mean it's chakra? how can you concentrate chakra into a place where theres already chakra, i mean wouldn't the chakra in the swampy water counteract the chakra concentrated in itachi's feet?

also, iirc jiraya uses the swamp of the underworld tech in sage mode right? and in the recent chapters of the manga fukasaku is telling naruto about the difference between sage and normal chakra http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/409/11/

and if i'm correct sage chakra is stronger than normal ninja chakra, so i think that'd counterbalance him walking aabove jiraya's tech :^^:

also sorry to reannouncee this but i thought it was important.

EDIT: sorry he doesn't have to be in HM i missed that

Smiley

10-01-2008, 02:38 PM

since swamp f the underworld is a tech, wouldn't that mean it's chakra? how can you concentrate chakra into a place where theres already chakra, i mean wouldn't the chakra in the swampy water counteract the chakra concentrated in itachi's feet?

also, iirc jiraya uses the swamp of the underworld tech in sage mode right? and in the recent chapters of the manga fukasaku is telling naruto about the difference between sage and normal chakra http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/409/11/

and if i'm correct sage chakra is stronger than normal ninja chakra, so i think that'd counterbalance him walking aabove jiraya's tech :^^:

also sorry to reannouncee this but i thought it was important.

EDIT: sorry he doesn't have to be in HM i missed that

If it's chakra, Yata shield adjusts its elemental nature to Raiton and disables the swamp.

PristineNymph

10-01-2008, 02:51 PM

Smiley

10-01-2008, 03:05 PM

Why does it looks like that this Susano'o became the kill all beat all super mega hax jutsu than nobody ever can beat... From what I see since it uses minimum chakra if any at all, it therefore use the life force of the user I think it's like Sarutobi's and Minato's sealing jutsu which means it's a last desperate suicide attack I think...

But it does use chakra.
Susano'o is a being made of chakra.

But yes, you're right, it does consume life force.
But we saw how long he was able to hold it vs. Sasuke, not to mention he was deceased.

One struck with the sword would be enough to end the fight.

PristineNymph

10-01-2008, 03:17 PM

But it does use chakra.
Susano'o is a being made of chakra.

But yes, you're right, it does consume life force.
But we saw how long he was able to hold it vs. Sasuke, not to mention he was deceased.

One struck with the sword would be enough to end the fight.

If it does uses chakra it would only be minimal seeing that he used it on the last minute of his fight with sasuke with them both have their chakra almost depleted. It mostly uses life force and since it's one very powerful jutsu as you say then the toll on the body would be enormous too...

When Itachi uses Susano'o yes it would be the end... If it fails it end with him losing but if he succeeds it end with a draw with both of them dead...

Smiley

10-01-2008, 03:30 PM

If it does uses chakra it would only be minimal seeing that he used it on the last minute of his fight with sasuke with them both have their chakra almost depleted. It mostly uses life force and since it's one very powerful jutsu as you say then the toll on the body would be enormous too...

When Itachi uses Susano'o yes it would be the end... If it fails it end with him losing but if he succeeds it end with a draw with both of them dead...

It would be the end if Itachi stood there and waited for Susano'o to drain all of his life force.
But no, after Jiraiya gets sealed he would turn it off.

We saw how fast the sword is vs. Oro's hydras.

And Yata shield that blocked Kirin coming at him in 1/1000 second.
The sword shouldn't be any slower.
It's the same being holding those items.

D.I.Y Death

10-01-2008, 04:07 PM

It would be the end if Itachi stood there and waited for Susano'o to drain all of his life force.
But no, after Jiraiya gets sealed he would turn it off.

We saw how fast the sword is vs. Oro's hydras.

And Yata shield that blocked Kirin coming at him in 1/1000 second.
The sword shouldn't be any slower.
It's the same being holding those items.

First of all Oro's hydra was massive and was coming straight at Itachi. That makes a really bad comparison.
Secondly Sauske had a speech before he used Karin saying that it is unavoidable. If Sauske was to just use the technique without the warning I doubt that Itachi's reaction speed would ever hope to catch up.
That sward has a limited range all that is required is evasive action or swamp of the underworld. Better yet GENJUTSU FOLLOWED BY SHADOW CONTROL. Since both of those aren't direct attacks Yata won't block them and Jiraiya can dispel Susano and then make Itachi cut his own throat. There are many variations to counter Susano.

jooter

10-01-2008, 05:06 PM

MinatoNamikaze

10-01-2008, 05:44 PM

lol but your forgetting that he needs to be hit by amateratsu for it to do any damage explain a situation where he can get hit and ill show you the reason your situation wont work

Amateratsu is unavoidable. Jiriya has no jutsu to dodge it with.

@DIY

Shadow clones cant trick the sharingan. They can see chakra flow. So please explain to HOW JIRIYA MANAGES TO WIN IF ITACHI USES AMATERTASU

vane

10-01-2008, 06:06 PM

Now I was really planning on leaving but I just want to make a point that I just read.

Shadow clones cant trick the sharingan. They can see chakra flow. So please explain to HOW JIRIYA MANAGES TO WIN IF ITACHI USES AMATERTASU

Actually yes they can. They can even trick a Byakugan user who can even see the flow of chakra. So what makes you think that a Sharingan user who cant see the flow of chakra but can only see chakra itself will be able to tell the difference.

Shadow clones are perfect clones that have the same everything basically. There is no telling them apart. You either have to destroy them or you have to see when they get made. If you dont see when they get made then you cant tell.

Muffin

10-01-2008, 06:26 PM

Amateratsu is unavoidable. Jiriya has no jutsu to dodge it with.

@DIY

Shadow clones cant trick the sharingan. They can see chakra flow. So please explain to HOW JIRIYA MANAGES TO WIN IF ITACHI USES AMATERTASU

Jiraiya can just obstruct Itachi's sight. A wall of earth, a cloud of smoke, a ball of fire, a spray of oil. All are capable of stopping Amaterasu.

D.I.Y Death

10-01-2008, 07:26 PM

Now I was really planning on leaving but I just want to make a point that I just read.

Actually yes they can. They can even trick a Byakugan user who can even see the flow of chakra. So what makes you think that a Sharingan user who cant see the flow of chakra but can only see chakra itself will be able to tell the difference.

Shadow clones are perfect clones that have the same everything basically. There is no telling them apart. You either have to destroy them or you have to see when they get made. If you dont see when they get made then you cant tell.
Exactly. I see that Smiley is now giving neg rep to people who don't agree with him. Way to go buddy!

MinatoNamikaze

10-01-2008, 08:24 PM

Now I was really planning on leaving but I just want to make a point that I just read.

Actually yes they can. They can even trick a Byakugan user who can even see the flow of chakra. So what makes you think that a Sharingan user who cant see the flow of chakra but can only see chakra itself will be able to tell the difference.

Shadow clones are perfect clones that have the same everything basically. There is no telling them apart. You either have to destroy them or you have to see when they get made. If you dont see when they get made then you cant tell.

Actually neji and sasuke are able to see which naruto is the real one when he sues his mass shadow clone jutsu so theres your argument out the window

MinatoNamikaze

10-01-2008, 08:26 PM

Jiraiya can just obstruct Itachi's sight. A wall of earth, a cloud of smoke, a ball of fire, a spray of oil. All are capable of stopping Amaterasu.

Sorry for the double post ill fix it later.

Ok muffin but how long can he keep that up before he runs out of chakra? Once hes out of chakra hes done while Itahci wouldnt need much chakra at all to just move around and look for openings in the mean time.

Also Itachi could use a shadow clone and make jiriya think he is blocking his view but actually appear behind him and nail him with an amateratsu.

D.I.Y Death

10-01-2008, 09:57 PM

Actually neji and sasuke are able to see which naruto is the real one when he sues his mass shadow clone jutsu so theres your argument out the window

You're wrong. During the chunin Exams Neji couldn't tell Naruto from his shadow clones. And since the Sharingan allows the user to see just the chakra color and not the chakra flow as well it won't be able to either.

Sorry for the double post ill fix it later.

Ok muffin but how long can he keep that up before he runs out of chakra? Once hes out of chakra hes done while Itahci wouldnt need much chakra at all to just move around and look for openings in the mean time.

Also Itachi could use a shadow clone and make jiriya think he is blocking his view but actually appear behind him and nail him with an amateratsu.

...Its Jiraiya...he has massive amounts of chakra like Kisame and Naruto thats why Jiraiya and Naruto are able to do sage training. Itachi also has low amounts of chakra. Itachi can't go invisible sure he could use a shadow clone at the expense of 50% of his chakra but all it takes is sage barrier and the clone dies Itachi loses 50% of his chakra and Jiraiya can't be hit my amaretsu while its up. Or he could just save himself the trouble and spew oil at Itachi and his clone. Kage Bushin requires hand signs still and when the clone is created it doesn't mean Itachi turns invisible and the clone always is created near the user. proof is Naruto and his constant use of Kage Bushin. When he does the hand signals all Jiraiya has to do is spew oil either Itachi will have to stop with the signals or get soaked in oil. As soon as he's soaked in oil its an extreme risk to use Amaretsu.

MinatoNamikaze

10-01-2008, 10:01 PM

You're wrong. During the chunin Exams Neji couldn't tell Naruto from his shadow clones. And since the Sharingan allows the user to see just the chakra color and not the chakra flow as well it won't be able to either.

actually I remeber a couple of instances where either sasuke or neji said they were able to keep track of the real naruto.

D.I.Y Death

10-01-2008, 10:09 PM

actually I remeber a couple of instances where either sasuke or neji said they were able to keep track of the real naruto.

Neji and Naruto have only fought once. Sauske and Naruto have only fought once. When Neji and Naruto fought it was clearly stated that because the clones have equal amounts of chakra there is no way of telling. That's canon material. Sauske's sharingan allows him to see chakra (as stated in the Deidara vs Sauske fight) but doesn't allow him to see the chakra flow. This is less advanced in that respect than Neji's eye ability so what makes you think that the Sharingan (which has been said to spawn from the whatever the name of Neji's eye ability is) can tell the difference when the byugaguan (sp?) can't?
Also when Sauske and Naruto fought Naruto was in Kyuubi form and did not create shadow clones. He created the ransagen in one hand for this fight so shadow clones were not necessary.

So either provide proof or you're bluffing...which you are because anyone who knows their manga knows better than what you just tried to pass as truth.

vane

10-02-2008, 02:19 AM

Actually neji and sasuke are able to see which naruto is the real one when he sues his mass shadow clone jutsu so theres your argument out the window

Now your trying to sound like me. But it isnt working. Just to let you know reread the old chapters. You missed out on some crucial stuff there man. So before you think you correct me look it up and stop being buased about this entire debate thinking that it would end as soon as Amaterasu comes out.

Smiley

10-02-2008, 02:24 PM

Exactly. I see that Smiley is now giving neg rep to people who don't agree with him. Way to go buddy!

I did, in fact, bad rep you, but that's because you bad repped me first.
Or so I figured, because I received a negative rep right after our argument with the reason that seemed like sth. you would write.

If that wasn't you I'll good rep you to fix that x_x

First of all Oro's hydra was massive and was coming straight at Itachi. That makes a really bad comparison.

And Jiraiya is going to retreat immediately after Itachi uses Susano'o?
No.
He would naturally try to see if his attacks can get past the barrier.

Secondly Sauske had a speech before he used Karin saying that it is unavoidable. If Sauske was to just use the technique without the warning I doubt that Itachi's reaction speed would ever hope to catch up.

Actually, Itachi started using his MS after Kirin was shot at him.
Its activation speed is less than 1/1000 second.

Link. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/08/)

That sward has a limited range all that is required is evasive action or swamp of the underworld.

Of course it has a limited range, but it's pretty darn huge and Oro and his hydras were on the significant distance when they were pierced with the sword.

Swamp won't work.

Better yet GENJUTSU FOLLOWED BY SHADOW CONTROL.

Genjutsu? You mean the toad's song? Jiraiya doesn't have time for that.
And that move requires Hermit mode,.

Itachi can't go invisible sure he could use a shadow clone at the expense of 50% of his chakra but all it takes is sage barrier and the clone dies Itachi loses 50% of his chakra and Jiraiya can't be hit my amaretsu while its up.

Just to point out, Itachi has Karasabunshin which takes a lot less chakra than regular kage bunshin.

D.I.Y Death

10-02-2008, 03:14 PM

I did, in fact, bad rep you, but that's because you bad repped me first.
Or so I figured, because I received a negative rep right after our argument with the reason that seemed like sth. you would write.

If that wasn't you I'll good rep you to fix that x_x

No. I gave you bad rep because you keep posting crappy posts. That shouldn't be confused with your own opinion. Your rep was removed by a mod because it was decided it wasn't a valid reason to give bad rep.

And Jiraiya is going to retreat immediately after Itachi uses Susano'o?
No.
He would naturally try to see if his attacks can get past the barrier.

Jiraiya would see a giant skeleton and try to use a technique from afar. You don't rush a summon on your own...that's absolutely stupid.

Actually, Itachi started using his MS after Kirin was shot at him.
Its activation speed is less than 1/1000 second.

Link. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/391/08/)

Itachi's ms was already activated and he had a whole speech from Sauske as warning. If Sauske didn't warn him his reaction speed wouldn't be enough unless you're saying Itachi has inhuman reaction speed?

Of course it has a limited range, but it's pretty darn huge and Oro and his hydras were on the significant distance when they were pierced with the sword.
They were far away but they weren't kilometers away.You're making it sound like Susano has a 5 mile reach.

Swamp won't work.
Why not?

Genjutsu? You mean the toad's song? Jiraiya doesn't have time for that.
And that move requires Hermit mode,.
Jiraiya doesn't sing. The elder frogs do which allows him to focus on battle still. You have yet to provide any proof on why jiraiya cannot make it into hermit mode.

Just to point out, Itachi has Karasabunshin which takes a lot less chakra than regular kage bunshin.

Where's the proof it takes less chakra? If we assume that it can then its abilities are severely reduced like all other clones other than kage bushin clones.

Smiley

10-02-2008, 03:46 PM

No. I gave you bad rep because you keep posting crappy posts. That shouldn't be confused with your own opinion.

Oh, so it was you.
No.

You get the award for being the most hypocrite person here, buddy.

You accuse me of bad repping you while you're the one who bad repped me first.
I had plenty of reasons to give you negative rep in first place, like numerous insults you threw at me.
But I didn't, until you bad repped me.

Your rep was removed by a mod because it was decided it wasn't a valid reason to give bad rep.

Yours was too. ;)
By the way, giving neg rep for neg rep is a valid reason to give neg rep.

Forum itself displays a message "you may be lucky to get the same rep in return" when you rep.
Well, you were lucky.

Jiraiya would see a giant skeleton and try to use a technique from afar. You don't rush a summon on your own...that's absolutely stupid.

He would most likely use his own summons, like Oro's hydras.

Itachi's ms was already activated and he had a whole speech from Sauske as warning. If Sauske didn't warn him his reaction speed wouldn't be enough unless you're saying Itachi has inhuman reaction speed?

The point is, Susanoo's activation speed is an instant.

They were far away but they weren't kilometers away.You're making it sound like Susano has a 5 mile reach.

And Jiraiya can't run 5 miles away from Itachi.
If he for some reason (although he doesn't have knowledge of Susano'o) retreats, it's not like Itachi can't follow him.

Why not?

I have explained it dozens of times already.
There are MANY ways to deal with the swamp.

Jiraiya doesn't sing. The elder frogs do which allows him to focus on battle still. You have yet to provide any proof on why jiraiya cannot make it into hermit mode.

Nope, you have yet to prove how he will make it to hermit mode.

Where's the proof it takes less chakra?

There is none, but I assumed.
The reason is, Itachi with his low stamina still could make two or three Karasabunshins vs. Sasuke AND use MS 4 times.

If you assume they take the same ammount of chakra as KBs, then, in theory Itachi can use his MS about 16 times in one fight.

vane

10-02-2008, 07:51 PM

There is none, but I assumed.
The reason is, Itachi with his low stamina still could make two or three Karasabunshins vs. Sasuke AND use MS 4 times.

If you assume they take the same ammount of chakra as KBs, then, in theory Itachi can use his MS about 16 times in one fight.
Actually the first time he used kagebunshin against Sasuke in that fight that was MS's Tsukiyomi which Sasuke broke afterwards and proceeded to fight and the clone was gone. Itachi only used the other kagebunshin like once after that.

D.I.Y Death

10-02-2008, 08:11 PM

Oh, so it was you.
No.

You get the award for being the most hypocrite person here, buddy.

You accuse me of bad repping you while you're the one who bad repped me first.
I had plenty of reasons to give you negative rep in first place, like numerous insults you threw at me.
But I didn't, until you bad repped me.

How do you call someone an idiot and be politically correct about it?

Yours was too. ;)
By the way, giving neg rep for neg rep is a valid reason to give neg rep.

You have done nothing but post the same argument and have ignored more than a few rules. You ignore canon proof and resort to old points when you have new points brought up creating a huge redundant circle. Even if that's pointed out and even if we address your points all you do is go back to another previous point and deny that you just did. Point being that's more than a fair reason to give someone like you negative rep and I firmly believe people like you should be restricted from debates since you're so inept at it.

He would most likely use his own summons, like Oro's hydras.

I'll agree with that but he wouldn't sit in one place and summon he'd retreat and summon.

The point is, Susanoo's activation speed is an instant.

I agree with that much at least.

And Jiraiya can't run 5 miles away from Itachi.
If he for some reason (although he doesn't have knowledge of Susano'o) retreats, it's not like Itachi can't follow him.

At the most Susano has a 500 meter range with its sword. That distance is nothing for any decent Shinobi. Also Susano has has NO LEGS how the hell is it supposed to move? With the power of friendship?

I have explained it dozens of times already.
There are MANY ways to deal with the swamp.

No you haven't you just keep saying "swamp can be detected" and "Itachi can avoid it" and never elaborate. Why do you think I have no respect for you? You are terrible at debating and worse than that you're opinionated and ignorant. Maybe if you had better communication skills we could actually see what you're talking about.

Nope, you have yet to prove how he will make it to hermit mode.

Thats not my duty. Its a move that Jiraiya has, as a person with an opposing belief its YOUR duty to dprove that he cannot use it. Which you have not done. Learn how to debate.

There is none, but I assumed.
The reason is, Itachi with his low stamina still could make two or three Karasabunshins vs. Sasuke AND use MS 4 times.

No proof not a valid point.

If you assume they take the same ammount of chakra as KBs, then, in theory Itachi can use his MS about 16 times in one fight.

In theory then Jiraiya can simply imprison Itachi in a frog and step on it. Don't speculate in a debate. I'll rip you a new asshole faster than you can blink if you try to pull the wool over my eyes with non canon theories or speculation.

vane

10-02-2008, 10:53 PM

MinatoNamikaze

10-03-2008, 12:09 AM

You're wrong. During the chunin Exams Neji couldn't tell Naruto from his shadow clones. And since the Sharingan allows the user to see just the chakra color and not the chakra flow as well it won't be able to either.

...Its Jiraiya...he has massive amounts of chakra like Kisame and Naruto thats why Jiraiya and Naruto are able to do sage training. Itachi also has low amounts of chakra. Itachi can't go invisible sure he could use a shadow clone at the expense of 50% of his chakra but all it takes is sage barrier and the clone dies Itachi loses 50% of his chakra and Jiraiya can't be hit my amaretsu while its up. Or he could just save himself the trouble and spew oil at Itachi and his clone. Kage Bushin requires hand signs still and when the clone is created it doesn't mean Itachi turns invisible and the clone always is created near the user. proof is Naruto and his constant use of Kage Bushin. When he does the hand signals all Jiraiya has to do is spew oil either Itachi will have to stop with the signals or get soaked in oil. As soon as he's soaked in oil its an extreme risk to use Amaretsu.

Thats not what im saying. If Jiriya has to keep using chakra to obstruct Itachis view, he will eventually run out of chakra and have no obstacles to block Itachis view. Its as simple as that. The second Itachi sees jiriya its over.

Muffin

10-03-2008, 12:59 AM

Thats not what im saying. If Jiriya has to keep using chakra to obstruct Itachis view, he will eventually run out of chakra and have no obstacles to block Itachis view. Its as simple as that. The second Itachi sees jiriya its over.

So your saying Jiraiya's techniques, which don't use his own monstrous chakra won't last as long as Itachi's Amaterasu? Which Itachi can only use twice.

D.I.Y Death

10-03-2008, 02:31 AM

So your saying Jiraiya's techniques, which don't use his own monstrous chakra won't last as long as Itachi's Amaterasu? Which Itachi can only use twice.

Just to be fair at most he can use it 4-5 times. And that's stretching it and accounts for chakra used by Kage Bushin (shadow clone). Jiraiya has a lot more chakra that that. He used a lot of techniques during the Pein fight and it didn't end because he ran out of chakra it ended because he wasn't strong enough.

Smiley

10-03-2008, 12:42 PM

You have done nothing but post the same argument and have ignored more than a few rules. You ignore canon proof and resort to old points when you have new points brought up creating a huge redundant circle.
Even if that's pointed out and even if we address your points all you do is go back to another previous point and deny that you just did. Point being that's more than a fair reason to give someone like you negative rep and I firmly believe people like you should be restricted from debates since you're so inept at it.

I don't wanna get into this, but I feel the same way about you.
You keep bringing up the old stuff like swamp of the underworld for which I've already mentioned and explained why it wouldn't work, which you just ignored and mentioned it again as a possible Susano'o counter.

At the most Susano has a 500 meter range with its sword. That distance is nothing for any decent Shinobi. Also Susano has has NO LEGS how the hell is it supposed to move? With the power of friendship?

Susano'o moves wherever Itachi does, with him in the center.
I thought you knew that much, buddy.

No you haven't you just keep saying "swamp can be detected" and "Itachi can avoid it" and never elaborate.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/faceplam.png
I don't believe that you actually think that swamp of the underworld is unavoidable for the Sharingan user.
Says a lot about your intelligence..

Oh, and I did in fact, give a solid explanation here. (http://www.talknaruto.com/showpost.php?p=673876&postcount=110) but you obviously missed that.

There are other ways, really..
Susano'o alone is enough to deal with the swamp.
Yata shield can change its elemental nature to Raiton and disable the swamp which is Doton.

He could also use the Totsuka sword to seal the swamp.

Why do you think I have no respect for you?

Why do you think I give a damn?

Thats not my duty. Its a move that Jiraiya has, as a person with an opposing belief its YOUR duty to dprove that he cannot use it.

Because it takes a lot time to be ready(charged?) and while it's being prepared he is is having his hands put together and is a sitting duck.

In theory then Jiraiya can simply imprison Itachi in a frog and step on it.

No, that wouldn't work in an open area.
If it were an inner area, it still wouldn't work, hence Itachi had already seen the technique once and would body flicker himself out as soon he read Jiraiya's hand seal.

Don't speculate in a debate. I'll rip you a new asshole faster than you can blink if you try to pull the wool over my eyes with non canon theories or speculation.

Okay, so Itachi made one or two Karasabunshins during (and in forest before) the fight wtith Sasuke.
If each of those split his chakra in two, and he was able to use MS 4 times after that, that would mean that originally, he had chakra to use MS 8 or 16 times.

It's either that, or Karasabunshin uses less chakra.

D.I.Y Death

10-03-2008, 06:56 PM

I don't wanna get into this, but I feel the same way about you.
You keep bringing up the old stuff like swamp of the underworld for which I've already mentioned and explained why it wouldn't work, which you just ignored and mentioned it again as a possible Susano'o counter.

Because they are counters. Ive explained why and you just keep saying it isn't.

Susano'o moves wherever Itachi does, with him in the center.
I thought you knew that much, buddy.

Prove it with a link or shut up. You're gonna have to shut up because Ive already done that research for another thread about Itachi's susano and its after effects and limitations.

http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/faceplam.png
I don't believe that you actually think that swamp of the underworld is unavoidable for the Sharingan user.
Says a lot about your intelligence..

He can see the chakra itself but if it form underneath of him Itachi can't simply evade it. Jiraiya could create hundreds of meters of swamp and Itachi can't fly.

Oh, and I did in fact, give a solid explanation here. (http://www.talknaruto.com/showpost.php?p=673876&postcount=110) but you obviously missed that.

You're right I did miss that. But thats what happens when I have you on my ignore list.

There are other ways, really..
Susano'o alone is enough to deal with the swamp.
Yata shield can change its elemental nature to Raiton and disable the swamp which is Doton.

...Yata shield disables attacks, Swamp isn't a direct attack. its a change in the environment. Thats like Saying Kimmaru (sp?) couldn't use his bone jungle because the bones would be dispelled. Would you like another go at the wheel of fish?

He could also use the Totsuka sword to seal the swamp.

Can that thing seal something that isn't alive? There's no proof either way and there's already debates about that. Drop it here because its a non canon theory.

Because it takes a lot time to be ready(charged?) and while it's being prepared he is is having his hands put together and is a sitting duck.

Look at how Naruto goes into Sage mode for a further explaination of how Jir does it. Its a given that Naruto is better at it since he doesn't need the help of the elder frogs. But the general principal is the same. Focus clasp and a second later you're in sage mode. That clasping could have just been a stance. There's no proof for that either. if you believe otherwise prove it.

No, that wouldn't work in an open area.
If it were an inner area, it still wouldn't work, hence Itachi had already seen the technique once and would body flicker himself out as soon he read Jiraiya's hand seal.

Ok that was meant in response to your stupid idea. If Jiraiya were to try that it requires a touch from one hand. This is demonstrated when he imprisoned the low life soldier in a frog before fighting Pein/meeting Konan.

Okay, so Itachi made one or two Karasabunshins during (and in forest before) the fight wtith Sasuke.
If each of those split his chakra in two, and he was able to use MS 4 times after that, that would mean that originally, he had chakra to use MS 8 or 16 times.

What is the recovery rate for chakra? Because that may limit this idea to 1 kagebushin. 8 uses and he's done. And thats straining him with the use fo chakra and stamina to avoid Jiraiya's attacks.

It's either that, or Karasabunshin uses less chakra.
If it has full abilities which it seemed not to it would be 50% but it seemed more like an average clone technique. Except instead of being made of Earth or water it was made of crows.

I've addressed every point. We are continuing from this point anew so its easier to keep track of your arguments so you can't bring up proven issues anymore.
Oh please provide proof for your theories from now on. I don't take your theories for truth so I REQUIRE proof.

Smiley

10-03-2008, 08:09 PM

Because they are counters. Ive explained why and you just keep saying it isn't.

You've explained them just now in this post.

Prove it with a link or shut up. You're gonna have to shut up because Ive already done that research for another thread about Itachi's susano and its after effects and limitations.

He was walking towards Sasuke who was throwing Shuriken at him, that were all blocked with Yata shield.
Susano'o was around him the whole time.

He can see the chakra itself but if it form underneath of him Itachi can't simply evade it. Jiraiya could create hundreds of meters of swamp and Itachi can't fly.

He has never been shown making swamp of that size.
He won't fly, he will channel chakra in feet, and walk over the swamp.
Or use Shunshin a moment before it is formed.

You're right I did miss that. But thats what happens when I have you on my ignore list.

What's the point of having me on ignore list when you read my posts anyway?
Well, I don't care, do as you like.

...Yata shield disables attacks, Swamp isn't a direct attack. its a change in the environment.

Hence it disables attacks by changing its element to whatever is required to beat the opponent's attack, what is stopping Itachi from sticking the shield into the swamp after its elemental nature was adjusted to Raiton?

Can that thing seal something that isn't alive? There's no proof either way and there's already debates about that. Drop it here because its a non canon theory.

Zetsu said that the sword can seal "anyone or anything". That includes the swamp.

Look at how Naruto goes into Sage mode for a further explaination of how Jir does it. Its a given that Naruto is better at it since he doesn't need the help of the elder frogs. But the general principal is the same. Focus clasp and a second later you're in sage mode. That clasping could have just been a stance. There's no proof for that either. if you believe otherwise prove it.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/02/
"Try buying me some time before the summoning is complete".
Thus, it requires time and Jiraiya has to think of a distraction.. A better one this time.
Hence Itachi can get rid of Gamaken really easily.

Ok that was meant in response to your stupid idea. If Jiraiya were to try that it requires a touch from one hand.

Because they were already inside the frog's stomach, except it was turned into a pub.
In the hotel that day he had to do a hand seal.

And still, it can't work in open areas.

I've addressed every point. We are continuing from this point anew so its easier to keep track of your arguments so you can't bring up proven issues anymore.

That goes for you too.

D.I.Y Death

10-03-2008, 08:27 PM

You've explained them just now in this post.

He was walking towards Sasuke who was throwing Shuriken at him, that were all blocked with Yata shield.
Susano'o was around him the whole time.

You're proving my point for me.

He has never been shown making swamp of that size.
He won't fly, he will channel chakra in feet, and walk over the swamp.
Or use Shunshin a moment before it is formed.

Swamp of the underworld is chakra made of chakra. Itachi can't use chakra to float on chakra. Unless you have proof?

What's the point of having me on ignore list when you read my posts anyway?
Well, I don't care, do as you like.

It makes me feel better because I really don't like you.

Hence it disables attacks by changing its element to whatever is required to beat the opponent's attack, what is stopping Itachi from sticking the shield into the swamp after its elemental nature was adjusted to Raiton?

But its not an attack. How can it reflect something that doesn't hit it?
This is the whole can kakashi's ms effect susano argument all over again since both aren't attacks.

Zetsu said that the sword can seal "anyone or anything". That includes the swamp.

This is also in the magna that says that Gaara's demon can destroy mountains with a swing of its tail. There's over exadurations everywhere to add emphasis to a battle.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/02/
"Try buying me some time before the summoning is complete".
Thus, it requires time and Jiraiya has to think of a distraction.. A better one this time.
Hence Itachi can get rid of Gamaken really easily.

Just like how Pein did eh? Itachi doesn't know about Sage Mode so he has no reason to suspect that Jiraiya is capable of it.

Because they were already inside the frog's stomach, except it was turned into a pub.
In the hotel that day he had to do a hand seal.

...its not a prerequisite to be in a frog to imprison someone inside of a smaller frog.

And still, it can't work in open areas.

Proof?

Also lets address Jiraiya's oil. If he starts spewing that all over the place and sticks to close combat how is Itachi going to safely use an amaretsu?
Oil+Amaretsu=certain death for both of them since the flames will spread and cling to everything with oil on it almost immediately. This also limits all of his other explosion and fire techs with his 3/4th of what Itachi knows. At that point he can simply summon the shield Froggy then go into hermit mode After that Itachi has to use Susano or he'll die in an instant.
Either agree or tell me how Itachi can avoid the oil issue. Keep in mind that Jiraiya knows about Amaretsu and its common knowledge that fire techniques are commonly used among the sharingan users (great fireball is used as a mark that you've become a man) so spewing oil is a logical course of action.

Smiley

10-03-2008, 10:23 PM

You're proving my point for me.

My point is that Susano'o moves along with him when he walks.
If that's your point then we're fine.

Swamp of the underworld is chakra made of chakra.

Since.. when?
Ninjas use their elemental chakra to produce elemental attacks.
But how is swamp of the underworld made of chakra?
I don't think it's any different than the normal real-life swamp.

Regardless, he still has Kawarimi and Shunshin which would do just fine.

But its not an attack. How can it reflect something that doesn't hit it?

Not reflect it, but disable it by sticking itself to it.

This is also in the magna that says that Gaara's demon can destroy mountains with a swing of its tail. There's over exadurations everywhere to add emphasis to a battle.

I can't give you greater evidence that the manga statement.
And Bijuus like Hachibi and Kyuubi can definitely destroy mountains with swings of their tails.
I'm not so sure about Gaara, but if it was stated in the manga; then it's true.

Just like how Pein did eh? Itachi doesn't know about Sage Mode so he has no reason to suspect that Jiraiya is capable of it.

Why does he need knowledge?
He sees that Jiraiya is having his hands put together.
He's definitely up to something.

He can get rid of Gamaken in couple of seconds with Tsukoyomi or the Totsuka sword.

...its not a prerequisite to be in a frog to imprison someone inside of a smaller frog.

I don't get it?
If he wants to trap his opponent inside the frog's stomach he would have to force him in.
Unless they're in an inner area, then the walls, floor, ceiling etc. get surrouned with its esophagus automatically.

Proof?

Prove that he can.
He's never done such thing.

Also lets address Jiraiya's oil. If he starts spewing that all over the place and sticks to close combat how is Itachi going to safely use an amaretsu?

How is he not? Ok, oil spewed around will cause poisoned fumes to appear and will make the fire bigger.
And since Itachi can put out Amaterasu just by focusing his eye on it, how is it a problem for him to not get burned with it?

Although not necessary he can make the bunshin explosion to blow the poisoned fumes away.

At that point he can simply summon the shield Froggy then go into hermit mode After that Itachi has to use Susano or he'll die in an instant.

If he summons Gamaken Itachi will either genjutsu him with Tsukoyomi/Sharingan genjutsu or seal him with Susano'o.

MinatoNamikaze

10-03-2008, 10:36 PM

So your saying Jiraiya's techniques, which don't use his own monstrous chakra won't last as long as Itachi's Amaterasu? Which Itachi can only use twice.

No you dont get it. Itachi wouldnt use his amateratsu. Jiriya would have to block his view constantly however becasue if he didnt then Itachi could nail him with one. So it doesnt matter how big of chakra reserve jiriya has if he is forced to use chakra dn Itahci isint. Eventually he will run out and its fight over.

vane

10-03-2008, 10:49 PM

MinatoNamikaze

10-03-2008, 10:53 PM

^^ Ok but if Itachi isnt going to use Amaterasu till Jiraiya runs out of chakra then why does Jiraiya have to keep obstructing Itachi's view if Itachi is not using Amaterasu? Jiraiya would use something to obstruct the view when Amaterasu is finally shot.

He couldnt. If he can only look at Itachis feet, he wont know amateratsus coming. If itachi has a second, he will hit him with it casue amateratsu is fast. Faster than sasuke and that as we can all agree is fast. Jiriya stands no chance.

Ill counter points later tonight. ttyl

vane

10-03-2008, 11:00 PM

He couldnt. If he can only look at Itachis feet, he wont know amateratsus coming.
Again your not going to miss a giant black flame coming your way. That is so pointless to say he wont have time to react.

If itachi has a second, he will hit him with it casue amateratsu is fast. Faster than sasuke and that as we can all agree is fast.
Of course its faster than Sasuke. But Sasuke had time to react just as Jiraiya will have time to react. Reactions in the Narutoverse is faster than someone just running trying to get away from something. So we know that Sasuke couldnt outrun it but there is plently of time to react.

Jiriya stands no chance.

No he stands more than a chance. Amaterasu wont win this fight. Susanoo would be the only game winner and that isnt going to work as Jiraiya has to much chakra, to many techniques to counter with, and is by far just as smart as Itachi battlewise, and actually smarter if he has Ma and Pa toad with him.

Smiley

10-03-2008, 11:08 PM

Again your not going to miss a giant black flame coming your way. That is so pointless to say he wont have time to react.

They don't come your way, you're set on fire.

D.I.Y Death

10-03-2008, 11:10 PM

My point is that Susano'o moves along with him when he walks.
If that's your point then we're fine.

No. He can't he never moved with Susano and there is no indication it can move. This is an assumption.

Since.. when?
Ninjas use their elemental chakra to produce elemental attacks.
But how is swamp of the underworld made of chakra?
I don't think it's any different than the normal real-life swamp.

Normally I'd agree but the fact that he can make the swamp invisible means it is no ordinary swamp.

Regardless, he still has Kawarimi and Shunshin which would do just fine.

Completely circumstantial but I'll let you that. Now he has less chakra.

Not reflect it, but disable it by sticking itself to it.

And how does one make a swamp stick to itself? I'm dying to hear how this works.

I can't give you greater evidence that the manga statement.
And Bijuus like Hachibi and Kyuubi can definitely destroy mountains with swings of their tails.
I'm not so sure about Gaara, but if it was stated in the manga; then it's true.

Its a form of literature called a hyperbole. Its meant as an exaduration to put emphasis on an event or action. Gaara's tailed beast was not that strong and yet it was said to cause earthquakes with its tail or crush mountains (can't remember which one it was)
Obviously that isn't true since Naruto beat the shit out of Gaara's tailed beast without even using Kyuubi chakra.

Why does he need knowledge?
He sees that Jiraiya is having his hands put together.
He's definitely up to something.

Ok now time to throw that right back in your face. The minute Itachi stops moving Jiraiaya will know something is up and with his previous knowledge of Amaretsu and his studies on it he should know the basics. He can easily block the amaretsu by your own logic.

He can get rid of Gamaken in couple of seconds with Tsukoyomi or the Totsuka sword.

Both of these give Jiraiya the time he needs for Hermit mode. Its not an hour long ritual.

I don't get it?
If he wants to trap his opponent inside the frog's stomach he would have to force him in.
Unless they're in an inner area, then the walls, floor, ceiling etc. get surrouned with its esophagus automatically.

I think we are talking about a different thing here. I'm talking about how to turned one of the henchmen into a frog.

Prove that he can.
He's never done such thing.

No proof either way. Lets let this point drop since neither one of use can use it.

How is he not? Ok, oil spewed around will cause poisoned fumes to appear and will make the fire bigger.
And since Itachi can put out Amaterasu just by focusing his eye on it, how is it a problem for him to not get burned with it?

Its not fumes. Its OIL. Itachi will have a lot more to put out which requires further use of the ms. Best circumstance Itachi puts it out at the expense of more chakra and strain on his eye. we can safely bet that putting out amaretsu will take chakra and the use of his ms. We also know his use of ms is very limited (8-12 uses) Now considering Jiraiya's chakra whats stopping him from just spewing more oil? If we go by your plan he'd use amaretsu again and have to put it out again. And if he was hit with the oil not only will his movement be slowed but he will also have a high risk at catching on fire since amaretsu (something that burns that hot is well above the heat requirements for ignition of oil) will light anything near it on fire (providing its flammable)

Although not necessary he can make the bunshin explosion to blow the poisoned fumes away.

Its oil not gas. An explosion will ignite the oil. Really really bad idea for Itachi considering flaming oil will be flung everywhere from that.

If he summons Gamaken Itachi will either genjutsu him with Tsukoyomi/Sharingan genjutsu or seal him with Susano'o.

If he summons the elders on his shoulders they are experienced in genjutsu. Very experienced considering that incredibly high level genjutsu they pulled. Susano is unlikely to connect if Jiraiya is not in range. If its another summon this gives Jiraiya time to use Sage Mode.

D.I.Y Death

10-03-2008, 11:15 PM

They don't come your way, you're set on fire.

Thats true. Itachi focuses his eye on a target and the target lights on fire. There's no projectiles involved. Hence why the obstruction point works wonders on Itachi since he closes his eyes and then opens them.

D.I.Y Death

10-03-2008, 11:19 PM

He couldnt. If he can only look at Itachis feet, he wont know amateratsus coming. If itachi has a second, he will hit him with it casue amateratsu is fast. Faster than sasuke and that as we can all agree is fast. Jiriya stands no chance.

Ill counter points later tonight. ttyl

Have you ever taken taijutsu before? Yes its an actual martial art and is one of the founding principals of being a ninja/shinobi. I'm enrolled in it and you're taught to read body movements. You rarely look someone in the eyes since a slight shift of weight can tell you exactly what they are going to do next.
Jiraiya is a ninja and since this is a basic principal of being a shinobi he will be able to read movements through body language. If Itachi stops moving or backs off from close quarter combat something is about to happen. Its an immediate give away to any techniques or preparations.

vane

10-03-2008, 11:32 PM

They don't come your way, you're set on fire.

Oh wow how wrong are you. Thats how Sasuke was able to run from it. Now you just need to stop and give it up with the Amaterasu points. You just completely hurt yourself there. If you were to just instantly combust Sasuke would not have had time to run. Regardless if something starts to come your way then you have time to run, then you have time to react so point void.

Smiley

10-03-2008, 11:43 PM

Oh wow how wrong are you. Thats how Sasuke was able to run from it. Now you just need to stop and give it up with the Amaterasu points. You just completely hurt yourself there. If you were to just instantly combust Sasuke would not have had time to run. Regardless if something starts to come your way then you have time to run, then you have time to react so point void.

Oh, but I am not wrong.
Sasuke was able to avoid being instantly set on fire because he started moving BEFORE Itachi opened his eye.
I explained it in more details here. (http://www.talknaruto.com/showpost.php?p=673876&postcount=110)

Even DIY agreed.

D.I.Y Death

10-03-2008, 11:47 PM

Sorry vane. Through everything Ive read it looks like the target just catches on fire. Maybe its open for interpretation but I'm not so sure since Amaretsu is unavoidable. In any case obstructing his view or getting out of his line of sight will work for countering. Shadow clones will also be an effective counter.

Smiley

10-04-2008, 12:14 PM

No. He can't he never moved with Susano and there is no indication it can move. This is an assumption.

How is it an assumption? He stood there at the significant distance from Sasuke when he sealed Oro and his hydras.
Then, he started walking towards Sasuke, who was running backwards from him.
Susano'o was with Itachi the whole time.

Link 1. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/)
Link 2. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/08-09/)
Link 3 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/10/)
Link 4. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/12/)

Susano'o was clearly changing its position as Itachi walked.

Completely circumstantial but I'll let you that. Now he has less chakra.

That's fine, but Kawarimi/Shunshin don't use up a lot of chakra.
Sasuke is using Shunshin constantly during his fights.
That's where his speed comes from.

And how does one make a swamp stick to itself? I'm dying to hear how this works.

..I said stick the Yata shield into the swamp.

Its a form of literature called a hyperbole. Its meant as an exaduration to put emphasis on an event or action. Gaara's tailed beast was not that strong and yet it was said to cause earthquakes with its tail or crush mountains (can't remember which one it was)

Then, why didn't the writter say that it's a hyperbole like he usually does when he uses this form such as here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/07/)

Obviously that isn't true since Naruto beat the shit out of Gaara's tailed beast without even using Kyuubi chakra.

He had a boss summon of the same size as his tailed beast, and he did use Kyuubi chakra.

Ok now time to throw that right back in your face. The minute Itachi stops moving Jiraiaya will know something is up and with his previous knowledge of Amaretsu and his studies on it he should know the basics. He can easily block the amaretsu by your own logic.

He stops to do a hand seal, like he usually stops every time he wants to perform a technique.
And he doesn't necessarily have to stop, in the hotel that day he was running through the stomach while preparing Amaterasu.

While Hermit mode, which apparantly uses senjutsu, requires no movement and no seals for some time.
Even if it wasn't for that, Itachi would naturally try to defeat the giant-sized frog summon attacking him as soon as possible.

Both of these give Jiraiya the time he needs for Hermit mode. Its not an hour long ritual.

Both Tsukoyomi and Susano'o are instants.
Hermit Mode took him a whole chapter to be ready.

And regular Sharingan genjutsu and finger/crow genjutsu would do fine against summons, hence Jiraiya can't move while summoning Ma and Pa toad he won't be able to snap them out of it.

I think we are talking about a different thing here. I'm talking about how to turned one of the henchmen into a frog.

Oh, that.
Are you suggesting that he would turn Itachi into a frog?
The Amegakure fodder that was turned into a frog couldn't move hence Jiraiya tied them up to a wall.

. Itachi will have a lot more to put out which requires further use of the ms. Best circumstance Itachi puts it out at the expense of more chakra and strain on his eye. we can safely bet that putting out amaretsu will take chakra and the use of his ms. We also know his use of ms is very limited (8-12 uses) Now considering Jiraiya's chakra whats stopping him from just spewing more oil? If we go by your plan he'd use amaretsu again and have to put it out again. And if he was hit with the oil not only will his movement be slowed but he will also have a high risk at catching on fire since amaretsu (something that burns that hot is well above the heat requirements for ignition of oil) will light anything near it on fire (providing its flammable)

Why would he use it again? One is enough defeat Jiraiya.
He won't put out all the fire, just as much as he needs to clear his path out.
Like Sasuke first put out the part where Karin was, then a few seconds later everything else.

D.I.Y Death

10-05-2008, 05:19 PM

How is it an assumption? He stood there at the significant distance from Sasuke when he sealed Oro and his hydras.
Then, he started walking towards Sasuke, who was running backwards from him.
Susano'o was with Itachi the whole time.

Link 1. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/04-05/)
Link 2. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/08-09/)
Link 3 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/10/)
Link 4. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/12/)

Susano'o was clearly changing its position as Itachi walked.

You must have bad eye sight. Susano clearly is not there when Itachi reaches Sauske.

..I said stick the Yata shield into the swamp.

Even if that worked.Which it wont since it isn't an attack. That leaves itachi open for a attack and pretty much any technique Jiraiya uses with instantly kill or main Itachi.

Then, why didn't the writter say that it's a hyperbole like he usually does when he uses this form such as here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/07/)

...I swear I want to beat you over the head with a book written about literature and context. Kishi uses hyperboles a lot sometimes in jext like your link and sometimes in amazement to add emphasis. Seriously. If you're still in school you need to take English over again.

He had a boss summon of the same size as his tailed beast, and he did use Kyuubi chakra.

No he had no tell tale signs of the kyuubi chakra. But this isn't important to our debate.

He stops to do a hand seal, like he usually stops every time he wants to perform a technique.
And he doesn't necessarily have to stop, in the hotel that day he was running through the stomach while preparing Amaterasu.

Prove it with a link then.

While Hermit mode, which apparantly uses senjutsu, requires no movement and no seals for some time.
Even if it wasn't for that, Itachi would naturally try to defeat the giant-sized frog summon attacking him as soon as possible.

Does it have to be a giant sized summon? That more of a give away that he is planning something then if he was to summon something to block Itachi's line of sight.

Both Tsukoyomi and Susano'o are instants.
Hermit Mode took him a whole chapter to be ready.

It took him having to set up a way to get into hermit mode a whole chapter. Once he was away from Pein's eyes it took him seconds.

And regular Sharingan genjutsu and finger/crow genjutsu would do fine against summons, hence Jiraiya can't move while summoning Ma and Pa toad he won't be able to snap them out of it.

Will it work against the guy who tried to train Naruto to break genjutsu? He knows how it works and how to counter normal genjutsu so this is a non factor.

Oh, that.
Are you suggesting that he would turn Itachi into a frog?
The Amegakure fodder that was turned into a frog couldn't move hence Jiraiya tied them up to a wall.

Yeah its not a serious point. I wouldn't expect Itachi to be caught off guard with something that simple.

Why would he use it again? One is enough defeat Jiraiya.
He won't put out all the fire, just as much as he needs to clear his path out.
Like Sasuke first put out the part where Karin was, then a few seconds later everything else.

Did you just ignore half my post? the temperature of the flames will ignite the oil since is burns at a massive temperature. One amaeretsu=all oil on fire. If Itachi leaves any amaretsu burning all Jiraiya needs to do is position himself and he has an amaretsu flame thrower. Bad news for itachi. Even if he does put it out that's an ms use and Jiraiya can just spit more oil up. His chakra can take it and while Itachi is trying to think of a way to get out of that mess Jiraiya can go into hermit mode using a number of distractions (swamp Toad stomach Toad shop summons shadow clones) at his disposal and then this is game over. Itachi cannot win if Hermit mode comes into play.

Evan Bourne

10-05-2008, 11:49 PM

itachi will win with amaretsu and tsukayomi

D.I.Y Death

10-06-2008, 01:36 AM

itachi will win with amaretsu and tsukayomi

Have you just ignored the entire thread? I mean even reading the last few posts put that into question.

Smiley

10-06-2008, 10:10 AM

You must have bad eye sight. Susano clearly is not there when Itachi reaches Sauske.

No. Susano'o is clearly there.
You could even see its head here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/14-15/)
And those black lines behind are part of it.

Even if that worked.Which it wont since it isn't an attack. That leaves itachi open for a attack and pretty much any technique Jiraiya uses with instantly kill or main Itachi.

What jutsu does Jiraiya have that would instantly kill Itachi?
Either way it doesn't matter.
You agreed that Shunshin/Kawarimi would work.

...I swear I want to beat you over the head with a book written about literature and context. Kishi uses hyperboles a lot sometimes in jext like your link and sometimes in amazement to add emphasis. Seriously. If you're still in school you need to take English over again.

And I'm asking why doesn't he say that it's a hyperbole like he usually does when he uses it?
And I don't see why "Anyone or anything" would be considered as a hyperbole.
It's a sword that seals anything it hits in genjutsu world. Why would it be limited to living beings only?

No he had no tell tale signs of the kyuubi chakra.

No, but he was worn-out and had to use Kyuubi's chakra to keep fighting.

Prove it with a link then.

Link 1. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/04/)
Link 2. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/05/)

Does it have to be a giant sized summon? That more of a give away that he is planning something then if he was to summon something to block Itachi's line of sight.

Like what? He has only been shown summoning giant frogs.

It took him having to set up a way to get into hermit mode a whole chapter. Once he was away from Pein's eyes it took him seconds.

..Because he already was setting it up for some time.

Will it work against the guy who tried to train Naruto to break genjutsu?

And Naruto failed to break finger genjutsu with that method.
But no, I said he would use it on Jiraiya's summons, and hence his hands would be busy setting up Hermit mode, he wouldn't be able to snap them out of it.

Did you just ignore half my post? the temperature of the flames will ignite the oil since is burns at a massive temperature. One amaeretsu=all oil on fire. If Itachi leaves any amaretsu burning all Jiraiya needs to do is position himself and he has an amaretsu flame thrower. Bad news for itachi. Even if he does put it out that's an ms use and Jiraiya can just spit more oil up.

Well first, if they're fighting in an open area no matter how oil he splits up Itachi can always move to the surface where there is no oil.
Secondly, he wouldn't need the second Amaterasu, hence the first would defeat Jiraiya.

His chakra can take it and while Itachi is trying to think of a way to get out of that mess Jiraiya can go into hermit mode using a number of distractions
swamp

Swamp won't work.

Toad stomach

Explain.
If Jiraiya enters the stomach Itachi can seal the stomach along with Jiraiya using Susano'o.

Toad shop

What is Toad shop?

summons

Summons can be easily genjutsu'd.

shadow clones

Making KBs will only cost him chakra.
KBs die after only one hit, and we've seen Itachi blitzing Kakashi's bunshin no problem.

D.I.Y Death

10-06-2008, 10:30 PM

No. Susano'o is clearly there.
You could even see its head here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/14-15/)
And those black lines behind are part of it.

Point proven Susano can move with Itachi.

What jutsu does Jiraiya have that would instantly kill Itachi?
Either way it doesn't matter.
You agreed that Shunshin/Kawarimi would work.

Hair needle Barrage. Sage Deep fryer. Sage Barrier.

And I'm asking why doesn't he say that it's a hyperbole like he usually does when he uses it?
And I don't see why "Anyone or anything" would be considered as a hyperbole.
It's a sword that seals anything it hits in genjutsu world. Why would it be limited to living beings only?

How can one use seal something in a genjutsu when the object has no chakra?

No, but he was worn-out and had to use Kyuubi's chakra to keep fighting.

If he was using kyuubi chakra he would have the sings of using it (red eyes) much like when he first summoned Gambunta to save his life.

Link 1. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/04/)
Link 2. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/148/05/)

Point proven but he still has to close his eyes to use it.

Like what? He has only been shown summoning giant frogs.

I thought you meant giant like Gambunta not giant like shield froggy.

..Because he already was setting it up for some time.

Link to prove that?

And Naruto failed to break finger genjutsu with that method.
But no, I said he would use it on Jiraiya's summons, and hence his hands would be busy setting up Hermit mode, he wouldn't be able to snap them out of it.

That's Naruto who has no time to practice it. We are talking about Jiraiya who has more experience than Itachi.

Well first, if they're fighting in an open area no matter how oil he splits up Itachi can always move to the surface where there is no oil.
Secondly, he wouldn't need the second Amaterasu, hence the first would defeat Jiraiya.

And if Itachi is hit with oil? Or if Jiraiya just keep vomiting it everywhere?
This is a major flaw in your argument. Jiraiya's oil hinders Itachi horrifically in both movement speed and techniques to use.

Swamp won't work.

Itachi can see the swamp even if its invisible. I'll agree with that. But it can work in the right situation.

Explain.
If Jiraiya enters the stomach Itachi can seal the stomach along with Jiraiya using Susano'o.

And if Jir doesn't go in with Itachi?

What is Toad shop?

Shop disguised as a toad. probably wouldn't work since Itachi isn't stupid.

Summons can be easily genjutsu'd.

And if Jiraiya tells them to not look their opponent in the eyes it has to be finger genjutsu. Which makes him vulnerable and allows Jiraiya to get into Hermit mode.

Making KBs will only cost him chakra.
KBs die after only one hit, and we've seen Itachi blitzing Kakashi's bunshin no problem.
Its a good way to get out of an amaretsu situation. Sharingan can't tell the difference between the original and the kb.

Smiley

10-07-2008, 11:50 AM

How can one use seal something in a genjutsu when the object has no chakra?

Well firstly, it's not genjutsu, it's genjutsu world.
Secondly, you yourself said that the swamp is made of chakra.

Point proven but he still has to close his eyes to use it.

One eye.

Link to prove that?

I've given you a link already.
He had his hands put together while Gamaken was fighting Pein's summons.
Some time later the HM was ready.

That's Naruto who has no time to practice it. We are talking about Jiraiya who has more experience than Itachi.

And I'm telling you if his hands are busy "charging" the Hermit mode, he can't snap his summons out of genjutsu.

And if Itachi is hit with oil?

What if Itachi burns Jiraiya with Grand fireball technique? 8)

Or if Jiraiya just keep vomiting it everywhere?

It uses chakra right? He can't keep vomiting it forever.

Itachi can see the swamp even if its invisible. I'll agree with that. But it can work in the right situation.

I agree.
But most techniques would work on most people in the right situation.

And if Jir doesn't go in with Itachi?

Go in where?
Wait - you said use frog's stomach to help him get the Hermit mode ready.
Jiraiya is inside, Itachi is outside the belly.

I don't understand your question.

And if Jiraiya tells them to not look their opponent in the eyes it has to be finger genjutsu.

What tells you he'll have time to tell them?
Itachi could instantly genjutsu them once they're summoned, like Sasuke did with Manda.

Which makes him vulnerable and allows Jiraiya to get into Hermit mode.

It doesn't. Even with finger genjutsu, Jiraiya can't dispell it if his hands are busy.
But Tsukoyomi would most likely work.

Its a good way to get out of an amaretsu situation. Sharingan can't tell the difference between the original and the kb

And how does Jiraiya know that Amaterasu is coming, thus makes KBs to confuse Itachi?

And I know that Sharingan can't tell the difference, but shouldn't he be able to keep an eye on the original Jiriaya?
Jiraiya doesn't have the chakra capacity to make hundreads of KBs like Naruto, so the real one won't get mixed up with them.
At best he can make couple of those, and if Itachi doesn't get his eyes off the real one, how will KBs confuse him?

D.I.Y Death

10-07-2008, 03:39 PM

Well firstly, it's not genjutsu, it's genjutsu world.
Secondly, you yourself said that the swamp is made of chakra.

We could go on forever about this. The genjutsu world defies logic and the Narutoverse. Persnoally I believe that Susano can only seal something with a brain because genjutsu only works on something with a brain.
Prrof is the description of sealing the target in an eternal genjutsu.

One eye.

He has to close both and open one. Every time he has used it he has had to do this. Every time Sauske has used it he has had to do this.

I've given you a link already.
He had his hands put together while Gamaken was fighting Pein's summons.
Some time later the HM was ready.

Right. Well since you know so much about Hermit mode lets see you explain how Naruto is able to do it with minimal prep time then? The only difference is Jiraiya needs help from the elder frogs to do what Naruto can do on his own. Its channeling natural chakra not meditating for 5 hours.

And I'm telling you if his hands are busy "charging" the Hermit mode, he can't snap his summons out of genjutsu.

...as long as Jiraiya says "don't look in his eyes" to his summon which is not unreasonable and if you deny me this than there's no point to this and you're just a stuck up fan boy.
Itachi has to use finger genjutsu. That puts him in the genjutsu as well. That gives Jiraiya time.

What if Itachi burns Jiraiya with Grand fireball technique? 8)

what part of oil didn't you understand?

It uses chakra right? He can't keep vomiting it forever.

Which is going to last longer? Itachi's chakra and stamina or Jiraiya's chakra and stamina? Since I'm afraid of your answer I'll answer for you. Jiraiya is miles ahead in chakra and stamina.

Go in where?
Wait - you said use frog's stomach to help him get the Hermit mode ready.
Jiraiya is inside, Itachi is outside the belly.

That's exactly my point.

What tells you he'll have time to tell them?
Itachi could instantly genjutsu them once they're summoned, like Sasuke did with Manda.

You know what the difference is? Sauske knew where to look. Itachi doesn't.

It doesn't. Even with finger genjutsu, Jiraiya can't dispell it if his hands are busy.
But Tsukoyomi would most likely work.

It doesn't take as long as you think for Hermit mode. I don't know where you got this idea from but it sure wasn't the manga.

And how does Jiraiya know that Amaterasu is coming, thus makes KBs to confuse Itachi?

Since Itachi needs to close both his eyes and open one of them he needs to take a defensive stance. Something is wrong if Itachi takes a defensive stance and a kb can br produced and used as a meat shield.

And I know that Sharingan can't tell the difference, but shouldn't he be able to keep an eye on the original Jiriaya?
Jiraiya doesn't have the chakra capacity to make hundreads of KBs like Naruto, so the real one won't get mixed up with them.
At best he can make couple of those, and if Itachi doesn't get his eyes off the real one, how will KBs confuse him?
Since Itachi needs to close both his eyes and open one of them he needs to take a defensive stance. Something is wrong if Itachi takes a defensive stance and a kb can br produced and used as a meat shield.

Smiley

10-07-2008, 06:06 PM

We could go on forever about this. The genjutsu world defies logic and the Narutoverse. Persnoally I believe that Susano can only seal something with a brain because genjutsu only works on something with a brain.

It doesn't "genjutsu" your brain.
Normal genjutsu disrupts the chakra flow in your head.
The Totsuka sword sucks your whole body up to another dimension.
Why do you need a brain to be sucked up?

He has to close both and open one.
Every time he has used it he has had to do this. Every time Sauske has used it he has had to do this.

No. He closes and opens only one eye.

Right. Well since you know so much about Hermit mode lets see you explain how Naruto is able to do it with minimal prep time then?

Where are you getting the idea that he did with minimal prep time?
We don't know how long it took.
We only saw the ending, in that he completed his training.

Regardless, we're discussing Jiraiya not Naruto.

The only difference is Jiraiya needs help from the elder frogs to do what Naruto can do on his own. Its channeling natural chakra not meditating for 5 hours.

1. He needed Gamaken to distract Pein for a while. That itself gives an idea that Hermit mode is far from an instant.
2. It took him the whole chapter 375 to finish preparing.

...as long as Jiraiya says "don't look in his eyes" to his summon which is not unreasonable and if you deny me this than there's no point to this and you're just a stuck up fan boy.

What's going to happen first- Jiraiya saying that to his summon, or Itachi looking his summon into the eyes?

By the way, how is Gamaken/Gamabunta going to avoid an eye contact with his giant-sized eyes?

Itachi has to use finger genjutsu. That puts him in the genjutsu as well. That gives Jiraiya time.

Yes, but he can move in the real world while having someone in finger genjutsu.
He was fighting Kakashi while having Naruto in genjutsu.

what part of oil didn't you understand?

There's no difference. Saying that Jiraiya will hit Itachi with oil is same as if I said that Itachi is going to burn Jiraiya with Grand fireball.
Neither of them is going to get hit by those under normal circumstances, hence avoiding them is as simple as moving out of the way.

Which is going to last longer? Itachi's chakra and stamina or Jiraiya's chakra and stamina? Since I'm afraid of your answer I'll answer for you. Jiraiya is miles ahead in chakra and stamina.

Itachi only has to keep moving to the clean surfaces, Jiraiya has to spit oil AND move around.

That's exactly my point.

And then the stomach and Jiraiya get sealed.

It doesn't take as long as you think for Hermit mode. I don't know where you got this idea from but it sure wasn't the manga.

Chapter 375.

Since Itachi needs to close both his eyes

No. He closes only one.

Something is wrong if Itachi takes a defensive stance

He doesn't. He does a normal everyday Katon hand seal.
There's nothing indicating that Amaterasu is coming out from that.

He could even trick Jiraiya by shooting normal Katon at him first, which would be followed by Amaterasu (which Jiraiya won't be expecting).

D.I.Y Death

10-07-2008, 08:28 PM

It doesn't "genjutsu" your brain.
Normal genjutsu disrupts the chakra flow in your head.
The Totsuka sword sucks your whole body up to another dimension.
Why do you need a brain to be sucked up?

It wouldn't be called genjutsu for no reason. If it was what you say it is it would simply be a space/time jutsu rather than a GENJUTSU.

No. He closes and opens only one eye.

Do I really need to go get proof that you're wrong? Every time he uses his Amaretsu he closes both eyes and opens one.

Where are you getting the idea that he did with minimal prep time?
We don't know how long it took.
We only saw the ending, in that he completed his training.

Regardless, we're discussing Jiraiya not Naruto.

Direct relation to a relatively new technique. Its a valid point.

1. He needed Gamaken to distract Pein for a while. That itself gives an idea that Hermit mode is far from an instant.
2. It took him the whole chapter 375 to finish preparing.

The prep time was for the summoning. 15 minutes at maximum.
Think a summon can hold out for 15 minutes against a sharingan user? If you say yes there's no point in this entire debate.

What's going to happen first- Jiraiya saying that to his summon, or Itachi looking his summon into the eyes?

Probably Jir talking to his summon. Itachi doesn't know what is going to be summoned so he can't look it in the eyes right away. This is really stretching it. Even for you.

By the way, how is Gamaken/Gamabunta going to avoid an eye contact with his giant-sized eyes?

By not looking into his eyes? Itachi is like a cat to him. You can look at the whole cat and not look into its eyes can't you?

Yes, but he can move in the real world while having someone in finger genjutsu.
He was fighting Kakashi while having Naruto in genjutsu.

He was standing still and Sakura smacked Naruto out of it. So provide a link.

There's no difference. Saying that Jiraiya will hit Itachi with oil is same as if I said that Itachi is going to burn Jiraiya with Grand fireball.
Neither of them is going to get hit by those under normal circumstances, hence avoiding them is as simple as moving out of the way.

Moving around on what? slippery oil?

Itachi only has to keep moving to the clean surfaces, Jiraiya has to spit oil AND move around.

Each spray leaves less and less dry ground. Its an extreme hazard to use any type of fire with this on the field. Itachi is not that stupid.

And then the stomach and Jiraiya get sealed.

Provided that the sword hits both of them. Secondly what if jiraiya used a shadow clone to hide in there? Now Itachi has Susano out and he's straining his body. One step closer to victory.

Chapter 375.

15 minutes to summon and 30 seconds for sage mode. He went into that hole. Summoned and then went into sage mode directly after.

No. He closes only one.

Riiight. I don't believe you.

He doesn't. He does a normal everyday Katon hand seal.
There's nothing indicating that Amaterasu is coming out from that.

...*facepalm*

He could even trick Jiraiya by shooting normal Katon at him first, which would be followed by Amaterasu (which Jiraiya won't be expecting).

with oil everywhere. great idea. How about we just give Itachi a bucket of bleach and tell him to drink it as fast as he can. Same outcome in the end.

Anyhow I'm tired of debating with you. You refuse any logic but your own still. FIRE+OIL=BAD. ITACHI=NOT STUPID...I really don't know how else to say that. I've tried being direct. Ive tried reason I've tried listing techniques and counters. You just are unreasonable so have fun debating on your own because you aren't worth my time anymore. This isn't a win this is me walking away before I start calling you names for ignoring logic and reason.

Smiley

10-07-2008, 09:35 PM

It wouldn't be called genjutsu for no reason. If it was what you say it is it would simply be a space/time jutsu rather than a GENJUTSU.

Let's leave this aside.
You agreed that Shunshin/Kawarimi would work to avoid the swamp, so I don't really need to convince you about other stuff.

Do I really need to go get proof that you're wrong?

Yes. I am giving you manga pages to back up my statements every time you ask me to.
Now I'm asking you to.
Let me help you.
It's chapter 389.
I don't see Itachi closing his eyes anywhere in there.

The prep time was for the summoning. 15 minutes at maximum.
Think a summon can hold out for 15 minutes against a sharingan user? If you say yes there's no point in this entire debate.

Of course I'm going to say no.
That was the whole point of me saying that he won't get to his HM.
Because Itachi has numerous ways to get rid of giant frogs really fast.

Finger/Crow genjutsu, Sharingan genjutsu, Tsukoyomi, the Totsuka sword etc.

Probably Jir talking to his summon. Itachi doesn't know what is going to be summonedso he can't look it in the eyes right away. This is really stretching it. Even for you.

He will see the summon a moment before it's there.
Thus he will know where to look.

By not looking into his eyes? Itachi is like a cat to him. You can look at the whole cat and not look into its eyes can't you?

And then suddenly the cat looks up and boom, an eye contact is made.
The toad gets genjutsu'd.

He was standing still and Sakura smacked Naruto out of it. So provide a link.

Link. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/)
The panel shows Kakashi and Itachi retreating.

Provided that the sword hits both of them.

No, the sword only hits the stomach.
Then the stomach gets sealed along with Jiriaya who was inside.

Secondly what if jiraiya used a shadow clone to hide in there?

So Jiraiya is going to make a kage bunshin and hide his real body, all in front of the eyes of the Sharingan user and expect him to not notice?

...*facepalm*

Lol, that's all you could write.

Anyhow I'm tired of debating with you. You refuse any logic but your own still. FIRE+OIL=BAD. ITACHI=NOT STUPID...

OIL = LIMITED.
THE AREA WHERE OIL IS SPLATTERED = LIMITED.

If Itachi wants to use fire techniques, he has to keep moving to the dry surfaces.
It's as simple as that.

I really don't know how else to say that. I've tried being direct. Ive tried reason I've tried listing techniques and counters.
You just are unreasonable so have fun debating on your own because you aren't worth my time anymore. This isn't a win this is me walking away before I start calling you names for ignoring logic and reaso

Yeah, this again.
How many times are you going to leave the thread?
You haven't proven me wrong.

You never gave me a valid Susano'o counter.
You never gave a valid Amaterasu counter.
You never showed me how Jiraiya would get to Hermit mode.

Somehow I'm always the one ignoring logic and facts.

D.I.Y Death

10-07-2008, 10:11 PM

I'm getting sick of this so I'm cutting right to the chase.

You never gave me a valid Susano'o counter.

The only option is retreat. there is no counter. You can also use indirect attacks or environment changes. Swamp would most likely have an effect since it is not attack.

You never gave a valid Amaterasu counter.

Oil. Obstruction of Itachi's line of sight.

You never showed me how Jiraiya would get to Hermit mode.

This entire debate has been about Jiraiya getting into hermit mode.
Do you honestly think that its going to be harder to get into hermit mode with Itachi near than it was against Pein? 3 bodies that had shared vision is tough to pull out Sage mode.

If you want to continue this should be a non factor. Of course Jiraiya would end up in hermit mode somehow. For every situation there is a counter and an opening will present itself just like every other Naruto battle.

What you should be arguing is if Itachi can beat Jiraiya in hermit mode. Which he can't.

Somehow I'm always the one ignoring logic and facts.
Because you can't see how oil and fire is a bad combination? Because you're fixated on Jiraiya not getting into hermit mode? If Itachi doesn't know about hermit mode then using it won't be an issue. Seriously. Read your posts.

Now because your whole debate is based upon Jiraiya not getting into sage mode which is total b.s. we are just going to skip that part especially since you somehow think that Jiraiya won't find an opening on one sharingan user when he can make one with three bodies who have the rinnegan.

Reasons why Jiraiya can kill Itachi in Hermit mode.
-Extreme speed strength and fortitude. (Itachi won't be able to physically keep up.)
-Toad song genjutsu (won't last long on Itachi but it will catch him off guard with such a high level genjutsu that he has never encountered)
-Deep fryer (large area of burning oil)
-Great barrier (If itachi steps into it he will die. It also prevents attacks from hitting Jiraiya)
-hair needle barrage (extremely fast and has a wide area of coverage)

The ONLY question is Susano. Which puts strain on Itachi. He can't keep it up forever so all this becomes is a waiting game. Once Susano goes down then Jiraiya attacks. As for the "susano" will hit Jir b.s. in sage mode he's incredibly fast. Itachi won't be able to keep up what so ever.

Smiley

10-08-2008, 04:47 PM

The only option is retreat. there is no counter.

Base Jiraiya isn't faster than Oro's hydras.

Consider the Totsuka's insane range, speed and Itachi's Sharingan to predict every Jiraiya's next movement.
He could simply predict where Jiraiya is going to move next, and aim the sword for that exact spot.
Jiraiya is screwed vs. Susano'o.

Oil.

The surface on that oil is splattered is limited.
Itachi would move to the clean surface.

Obstruction of Itachi's line of sight.

With what exactly?

This entire debate has been about Jiraiya getting into hermit mode.
Do you honestly think that its going to be harder to get into hermit mode with Itachi near than it was against Pein? 3 bodies that had shared vision is tough to pull out Sage mode.

There were no 3 bodies at that point.
Just one.
So until you tell me how EXACTLY he will get to Hermit mode, we won't be discussing it.

D.I.Y Death

10-08-2008, 06:10 PM

Base Jiraiya isn't faster than Oro's hydras.

Consider the Totsuka's insane range, speed and Itachi's Sharingan to predict every Jiraiya's next movement.
He could simply predict where Jiraiya is going to move next, and aim the sword for that exact spot.
Jiraiya is screwed vs. Susano'o.

Sharingan is like watching everything in slow motion with the perk of seeing chakra.
Now if he created a kb and both clones retreated? Problem solved. All you have to do is back off and let Susano wear Itachi out. And since that's his trump card it doesn't come out first. He could also summon swap to stop Itachi from following. If you think that Jiraiya can't escape Susano you're in need of a cat scan.

The surface on that oil is splattered is limited.
Itachi would move to the clean surface.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/03/
That's a lot of oil. Somehow you are just unable to grasp that it doesn't matter. An amaretsu fueled oil fire is extremely hazardous and allows Jiraiya to spew oil through it at Itachi. Worst case scenario Jiraiya keeps spewing oil. This can be used in conjunction with swamp of the underworld to form a trap as well as hinder Itachi's fire based jutsu.

There were no 3 bodies at that point.
Just one.
So until you tell me how EXACTLY he will get to Hermit mode, we won't be discussing it.

Ive told you many times. You refuse to accept anything but your own flawed logic. The summons also have the rinnegan. That's 3 bodies. Pein his lizard and that dog summon with multiple heads. 3 bodies.

Now tell me why he can't make it into hermit mode? If he can do it against the rinnegan why not one sharingan? That's a much easier task. If you say "because Itachi won't give him a chance" Itachi doesn't know about Sage Mode and therefore can't prevent its usage with knowledge. Any obstruction of that will be coincidence.

Also your point on him having his hands clasped has now been disproved.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/04/
He did that to use his detection barrier...actually we can't tell why he clasped his hands. It could be for either or so you can't use that point as proof since it is now speculation.

Now since you can't unbiasedly say that Jiraiya can't make it into hermit mode we WILL be discussing that. I've given you more than enough proof and explanation. If by some stupidity you can't accept that that's your biased opinion and I will have nothing to do with it.

Like I said before Jiraiya in Hermit mode physically is far beyond Itachi and has access to new Jutsu which will obliterate Itachi in seconds. He will be forced to use Susano immediately and then Jiraiya just needs to retreat or put up his sage barrier. 5 bucks says sage barrier will last longer than Susano.

Smiley

10-09-2008, 08:19 PM

Sharingan is like watching everything in slow motion with the perk of seeing chakra.

And seeing everything before it happens.
So he will be able to see every next Jiraiya's movement and chances that he'll miss Jiraiya with the Totsuka sword are really, really low.

Now if he created a kb and both clones retreated? Problem solved.

If Itachi doesn't get his eyes off the real Jiraiya, KBs won't confuse him.

All you have to do is back off and let Susano wear Itachi out. And since that's his trump card it doesn't come out first. He could also summon swap to stop Itachi from following.

No.
Stop bringing up the swamp.

Worst case scenario Jiraiya keeps spewing oil.

And Itachi keeps moving to dry surfaces.
Srsly, I don't think Amaterasu + oil would endanger Itachi in any way.

After he had finished off Jiraiya, he would put out the black flames blocking his path out(if there are any)/then body flicker himself away.

Now tell me why he can't make it into hermit mode? If he can do it against the rinnegan why not one sharingan?

I've already told you. Jiraiya's summons will be instantly genjutsu'd.
Frog's stomach will be sealed.

Sennin mode isn't happening.

Also your point on him having his hands clasped has now been disproved.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/04/

No.
This (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/03/)is the point where he decides that he needs barrier jutsu and claspes his legs in order to do so.

He clasped his hands in order to get to hermit mode, as it's clearly indicated from this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/375/02/) scan.

Like Fukasaku explained, Hermit mode requires no movement for a certain period of time.
Jiraiya is a sitting duck while preparing the Hermit mode, and hence summons and frog's belly won't work, unless you think of a really good distraction, Jiraiya isn't getting to his sennin mode in this fight.

Doctor Octogonapus

10-10-2008, 12:26 AM

And seeing everything before it happens.
So he will be able to see every next Jiraiya's movement and chances that he'll miss Jiraiya with the Totsuka sword are really, really low.

Actually when dealing with dead characters, they're status in the battle is directed back to the last moment of their existence in which they were at perfect physical health.
Jiriaya had no health problems that we knew up. However, Itachi, was very close to blind when he fought Sasuke.
The chances of him landing any precision based attack is very low.

If Itachi doesn't get his eyes off the real Jiraiya, KBs won't confuse him.

Alright then, imagine the penny under the cup game, but people are throwing bricks at you while they're shuffling.
So while you're trying to lock onto what cup has the penny and stay locked on that cup, you have to dodge the bricks being thrown at you.
This is a very challenging task ESPECIALLY if it's being done by someone who's nearly blind.

No.
Stop bringing up the swamp.

Wow, damn good argument.
Especially since his point is valid.

And Itachi keeps moving to dry surfaces.

Did he tell you this or are you writing the battle yourself?

Srsly, I don't think Amaterasu + oil would endanger Itachi in any way.

That's like saying I don't think juggling these torches in a pool of gasoline will harm me in anyway.
Regardless of what you think....Fire+Oil/Gasoline = More Fire.

I've already told you. Jiraiya's summons will be instantly genjutsu'd.
Frog's stomach will be sealed.

Then Itachi will instantly lose.
Itachi can cast genjutsu on ONE person or thing.

Sennin mode isn't happening.

Idk what that is, but if it's hermit mode, it is happening.
He has to clap his hands together, big deal.
And Shadow Clones are made for distractions.

Smiley

10-10-2008, 12:52 AM

Actually when dealing with dead characters, they're status in the battle is directed back to the last moment of their existence in which they were at perfect physical health.
Jiriaya had no health problems that we knew up. However, Itachi, was very close to blind when he fought Sasuke.

Yes, but since I'm the thread opener I decide on the rules & restrictions, correct?
So I think it'd be fair if he was at his 100% and not nearly blind.

The chances of him landing any precision based attack is very low.

He hit Oro's hydras with it.
He hit Oro, who didn't even notice the sword until it hit him (or so it seemed - he was in middle of his speech).
The sword's insane range and speed + Sharingan's movement predicting ability.

Alright then, imagine the penny under the cup game, but people are throwing bricks at you while they're shuffling.
So while you're trying to lock onto what cup has the penny and stay locked on that cup, you have to dodge the bricks being thrown at you.

He doesn't have to dodge attacks if he is in Susano'o.
Yata shield takes care of that.

The point of KBs was to distract Itachi so Jiraiya could retreat when Itachi uses Susano'o.

Wow, damn good argument.

We've dicussed the swamp several times already, DIY even agreed that Itachi would be able to avoid it, and now is bringing it up again.

Did he tell you this or are you writing the battle yourself?

Alright, if oil is splatted over the battlefield, and Itachi wants to use Amaterasu, wouldn't it be logical for him to move to the dry surface?

That's like saying I don't think juggling these torches in a pool of gasoline will harm me in anyway.
Regardless of what you think....Fire+Oil/Gasoline = More Fire.

That's true.
But how is more fire a threat to Itachi, if he can put it out just by focusing his eyes on it?

Then Itachi will instantly lose.
Itachi can cast genjutsu on ONE person or thing.

Yeah, but he can move in the real world while having someone in genjutsu.
(He was fighting KAkashi while having Naruto in finger genjutsu; He was with Kisame and went to trap Naruto while having the fodder girl in Sharingan genjutsu).

Idk what that is, but if it's hermit mode, it is happening.

Sennin mode = Hermit mode.

He has to clap his hands together, big deal.

And not move for a certain period of time.

And Shadow Clones are made for distractions.

I doubt that base Jiraiya has enough chakra to make more than 2-3 KBs.
Also we saw Itachi blitzing Kakashi's water bunshin with Shunshin/kunai.

And using Susano'o in situation when your opponent is standing still and can't do any hand seals sounds like a good idea to me.

D.I.Y Death

10-10-2008, 05:21 AM

Yes, but since I'm the thread opener I decide on the rules & restrictions, correct?
So I think it'd be fair if he was at his 100% and not nearly blind.

Fair enough. Itachi is at 100%

He hit Oro's hydras with it.
He hit Oro, who didn't even notice the sword until it hit him (or so it seemed - he was in middle of his speech).
The sword's insane range and speed + Sharingan's movement predicting ability.

Oro is cocky. He doesn't move unless he has to because he can't die. To his surprise that sword was not something to be messed around with.

He doesn't have to dodge attacks if he is in Susano'o.
Yata shield takes care of that.

So he's going to use his trump card...the one that hurts him as soon as a something is thrown at him? lmao no. Also I doubt Itachi can use Amaertsu and Susano at the same time. Its an "eye" technique and using more than one att he same time so far has never happened and therefore cannot hppen in this battle.

The point of KBs was to distract Itachi so Jiraiya could retreat when Itachi uses Susano'o.

There's multiple functions to the kb. Just because we are discussing one scenario doesn't mean that he can't use them for something else.

We've dicussed the swamp several times already, DIY even agreed that Itachi would be able to avoid it, and now is bringing it up again.

Sure it can be avoided. So can Shikamaru's shadow but Temari got caught in that eh? Traps can catch anyone off guard.

Alright, if oil is splatted over the battlefield, and Itachi wants to use Amaterasu, wouldn't it be logical for him to move to the dry surface?

Yep.

That's true.
But how is more fire a threat to Itachi, if he can put it out just by focusing his eyes on it?

Excessive chakra expenditure. I think we have established Itachi has 8-10 ms uses before hes done. One amaertsu and one putting it out that's now 6-8 uses. Don't for a moment think that putting out Amaretsu is an easy thing and that it uses no chakra. Everything comes at a price.

Yeah, but he can move in the real world while having someone in genjutsu.
(He was fighting KAkashi while having Naruto in finger genjutsu; He was with Kisame and went to trap Naruto while having the fodder girl in Sharingan genjutsu).

I don't remember that. Link?

And not move for a certain period of time.

And you proof is where? The training required that to become aware of natural chakra. If this is true then Jiraiya and Naruto should not be able to move around in this mode without turning into frogs. And then Naruto was shown moving around without the elder frog at night practicing "that jutsu". This pokes some serious holes in that theory.

I doubt that base Jiraiya has enough chakra to make more than 2-3 KBs.
Also we saw Itachi blitzing Kakashi's water bunshin with Shunshin/kunai.

2-3 is enough to do some serious damage. Each one can create a ransagen and do any jutsu it has the chakra to do.

And using Susano'o in situation when your opponent is standing still and can't do any hand seals sounds like a good idea to me.
Well I just blew that theory out of the water so this comment is useless.

So why can't Jiraiya go into sage mode?

PristineNymph

10-10-2008, 10:07 AM

D.I.Y Death

10-10-2008, 04:21 PM

Why can't Jiraiya go into sage mode? =/
He just need to clasp his hands to summon the two hermit frogs. He could dodge run and do anything else just like when Oro has his hands sealed. After that it's instantaneous transformation to sage mode. ^.^

Exactly. There's no proof he has to stay still to activate sage mode. He stood still because he activated his barrier hence his foot claps thing before he stood still.

Smiley

10-10-2008, 06:55 PM

Oro is cocky. He doesn't move unless he has to because he can't die. To his surprise that sword was not something to be messed around with.

Like I said: The sword's range, speed (which was great enough to hit the hydras) + Sharingan's movement predicting ability.
Orochimaru maybe wouldn't have moved in first place, but he seemed pretty surprised when the sword hit him, as if he didn't see it coming.

So he's going to use his trump card...the one that hurts him as soon as a something is thrown at him?

You said that Jiraiya would use KBs to distract Itachi so he can retreat.
If he doesn't get his eye off the real Jiraiya, KBs won't confuse him.
He will aim the sword for Jiraiya's real body.

Also I doubt Itachi can use Amaertsu and Susano at the same time. Its an "eye" technique and using more than one att he same time so far has never happened and therefore cannot hppen in this battle.

Idk what you're on for.
I never said he would do Amaterasu while in Susano'o.

Sure it can be avoided. So can Shikamaru's shadow but Temari got caught in that eh? Traps can catch anyone off guard.

He will read Jiraiya's hand seal, see that it's a doton seal then notice the chakra underground before the swamp is formed.
It's extremely hard to get hit by something you see coming, and can predict the exact moment when it will happen.
If you really want the swamp to suck up Itachi, you'll have to blindfold him and tie him up to a tree firsthttp://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3316/blinditachixk5.gif

Yep.

Ok..? So he will move to the dry surface and fire Amaterasu.

Excessive chakra expenditure. I think we have established Itachi has 8-10 ms uses before hes done. One amaertsu and one putting it out that's now 6-8 uses. Don't for a moment think that putting out Amaretsu is an easy thing and that it uses no chakra. Everything comes at a price.

Why does that matter if he already won?
Assume that Jiraiya gets burnt with Amaterasu.
Then fire starts spreading towards Itachi.
Itachi puts out the part that he is about to get hit with, then uses body flicker to escape.

I don't remember that. Link?

1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/18/)

2 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/147/04/)

And then Naruto was shown moving around without the elder frog at night practicing "that jutsu". This pokes some serious holes in that theory.

Ok, the last chapter confirmed that has to stand still, but if Fukasaku in on his shoulder, then he's okay.
But summoning Fukasaku still required time, and Gamaken for distraction.

He still has to keep dodging the 500m long sword against the guy who can see his every next movement.

Doctor Octogonapus

10-10-2008, 08:49 PM

Smiley

10-10-2008, 09:47 PM

1. Quit making your own fight.
2. Drop the Kage Bunshin argument because it's pointless. You're wrong, end of story.
3. He's near blind, his sight related sharingan abilities are extremely faulty. His ability to predict opponents moves is no more than an average ninjas.

1.How am I writting my own fight?o_O
2.Explain
3.DIY agreed it'd be fair if he wasn't blind.
And I believe that I as the OP can decide on restrictions and stuff.

Doctor Octogonapus

10-10-2008, 10:03 PM

1.How am I writting my own fight?o_O
2.Explain
3.DIY agreed it'd be fair if he wasn't blind.
And I believe that I as the OP can decide on restrictions and stuff.

1. You're saying what Itachi will do. And you're saying what Jiriaya can't do. You're writing your own fight.
2. Nut, Cup, and Brick. Just as I said before.
3. Giving him perfect vision is unfair for Jiriaya, because that's giving Itachi something he doesn't have.

Within your limits.
You can't change the fact that he had terrible eyesight.
If you do, you have to be fair and up one of Jiriaya's attributes.
If you aren't being fair with this, I could probably have this thread closed for improper direction.

D.I.Y Death

10-10-2008, 10:25 PM

Like I said: The sword's range, speed (which was great enough to hit the hydras) + Sharingan's movement predicting ability.
Orochimaru maybe wouldn't have moved in first place, but he seemed pretty surprised when the sword hit him, as if he didn't see it coming.
[quote]
He was shocked when he realized what the sword was. He snickered when he was stabbed. *EPIC WTF FACEPALM*

[quote]
You said that Jiraiya would use KBs to distract Itachi so he can retreat.
If he doesn't get his eye off the real Jiraiya, KBs won't confuse him.
He will aim the sword for Jiraiya's real body.

Lets test this theory. Lets take 3 cups and a nut and put the nut in one of those cups. The we'll set a baseball launcher up to fire baseballs at you. To compensate for the sharingan I'll put it at slow speed but it will still be rapid fire. Lets see if you can still keep track of the nut.

Idk what you're on for.
I never said he would do Amaterasu while in Susano'o.

Ok good. I'm holding you to that.

He will read Jiraiya's hand seal, see that it's a doton seal then notice the chakra underground before the swamp is formed.
It's extremely hard to get hit by something you see coming, and can predict the exact moment when it will happen.
If you really want the swamp to suck up Itachi, you'll have to blindfold him and tie him up to a tree firsthttp://img50.imageshack.us/img50/3316/blinditachixk5.gif

Or control him though his shadow and make him walk into it....or set up a trap. Itachi doesn't have 360 degree vision.

Ok..? So he will move to the dry surface and fire Amaterasu.

And more oil comes up. Maybe Jiraiya will release half a blast and then the other half as Itachi is moving in mid air since he will have to jump with that much oil everywhere.

Why does that matter if he already won?

*facepalm* Ignorance is bliss eh?

Assume that Jiraiya gets burnt with Amaterasu.
Then fire starts spreading towards Itachi.
Itachi puts out the part that he is about to get hit with, then uses body flicker to escape.

Why would I assume that? Jiraiya has experience with Amaretsu and had it sealed for studying. He knows what it is.
Sure Itachi puts out the fire coming towards him....oh wait because theres SO MUCH OIL the fire is bigger than Itachi's line of sight and has possibly trapped him since he keeps jumping to dry spots. Not to mention Itachi is screwed with how hot that fire is (he'll get burned at a distance) and if he has ANY oil on him it'll instantly catch fire.

Ok, the last chapter confirmed that has to stand still, but if Fukasaku in on his shoulder, then he's okay.
But summoning Fukasaku still required time, and Gamaken for distraction.

And yet at night Naruto is moving around without any frogs! Big hole in your theory still that you have yet to address.

He still has to keep dodging the 500m long sword against the guy who can see his every next movement.

Do you not understand what trump card means? Itachi won't throw that out until he has to. Its too risky to his health plus throwing your best out there right away is just plain stupid. Hate to say it but if you were a general you'd lose every battle you went into.

Smiley

10-11-2008, 09:45 PM

1. You're saying what Itachi will do. And you're saying what Jiriaya can't do. You're writing your own fight.
2. Nut, Cup, and Brick. Just as I said before.
3. Giving him perfect vision is unfair for Jiriaya, because that's giving Itachi something he doesn't have.

1. Of course, and others are saying what Jiraiya will do.
And I'm saying he can't get to Hermit mode because it takes some time to be ready, like Kakashi's Mangekyou before.
And I don't see anything from his arsenal that can hold off Itachi for HM to be ready.

So I'll stop bringing that up as soon as someone tells me how he will distract Itachi so he can summon Ma and Pa toad that he needs to gather natural energy for him so he can move around and dodge attacks. Against Pein he used Gamaken that Itachi can instantly put in genjutsu.

2. And since I'm having this chakra barrier around me that will deflect any bricks thrown at me, I won't be having trouble keeping track of the nut any more than I would under normal circumstances.

3. How is it unfair to put him at his 100%? He wasn't always nearly blind or diseased.
Like the threads where OPs make Orochimaru and Kimimaro perfectly healthy.
Or put Sandaime in his prime.

Doctor Octogonapus

10-11-2008, 09:59 PM

1. Of course, and others are saying what Jiraiya will do.

Then tell them to stop. Don't stoop to their level.

And I'm saying he can't get to Hermit mode because it takes some time to be ready, like Kakashi's Mangekyou before.

He managed in a 6 on 1 battle against the strongest ninja alive.
That just looks god awful for your case.

So I'll be saying that until someone tells me how he will distract Itachi so he can summon Ma and Pa toad that he needs to gather natural energy for him and move around. Against Pein he used Gamaken that Itachi can instantly put in genjutsu.

Jiriaya vs. Pain proves you wrong.

2. And since I'm having this chakra barrier around me that will deflect any bricks thrown at me, I won't be having trouble keeping track of the nut any more than I would under normal circumstances.

What chakra barrier is this?
Since when is Itachi invincible?

3. How is it unfair to put him at his 100%? He wasn't always nearly blind or diseased.

We have 3/4-Blind Itachi, in which we know that he has Susano, Ameratsu, and Tsukoyomi.
We have Pre-Skip Itachi, in which we don't know that he has Susano.
We have Younger Itachi, in which we don't know that he has Susano or Ameratsu.
We have Pre-Massacre Itachi, in which we don't know that he has Susano, Ameratsu, or Tsukoyomi.

Take your pick.
Any one outside of those characters is a handicap because we do not know of their existence in the manga.
Choose which Itachi Jiriaya is fighting, I'll be changing the thread next post, if you decide to that is.
If you want him to have 100% eye sight then Younger Itachi or Pre-massacre Itachi are your only choices.

Like the threads where OPs make Orochimaru and Kimimaro perfectly healthy.
Or put Sandaime in his prime.

Sandaime's prime is different, Sandaime wasn't as big of a character as Itachi, we don't know enough of what Sandaime could and couldn't do at that time.
Kimimaro is healthy in any battle regardless of what they say. He was fine in the Gaara fight up until the very end, we can't make the same call in the battledome.
Orochimaru however has been at perfect health, that's not unreasonable.

Smiley

10-11-2008, 10:19 PM

Then tell them to stop. Don't stoop to their level.

D:
What's the point of battledome if we don't say what characters will do?

That's the situation on almost any other battledome thread.
And I'm not saying Itachi will do anything he never did in the manga or what any character with average intelligence would do (like move to the dry surface so he can use his fire techniques and Amaterasu).

He managed in a 6 on 1 battle against the strongest ninja alive.
That just looks god awful for your case.

Only Fuuma Pein was there at that point.
And he tried to counter Jiraiya with his summons that couldn't even defeat Gamaken.

What chakra barrier is this?

Susano'o.
The point of making kage bunshins in first place was so when Itachi used Susano'o, he wouldn't know which one is real, and the real one could retreat while he is dealing with clones.

We have Pre-Skip Itachi, in which we don't know that he has Susano.

All three of his Mangekyou techniques were activated on the same day.
We do know that he had Susano'o at that point.

So yeah, change the title.

Doctor Octogonapus

10-11-2008, 10:42 PM

D:
What's the point of battledome if we don't say what characters will do?

What's the point of the literature section if we write our fan fiction here?

And I'm not saying Itachi will do anything he never did in the manga or what any character with average intelligence would do (like move to the dry surface so he can use his fire techniques and Amaterasu).

You're elaborating too much, we're deciding who will win, we're not going into major details here.

All three of his Mangekyou techniques were activated on the same day.
We do know that he had Susano'o at that point.

You don't know that.
You have literally no proof to support that.

Smiley

10-11-2008, 10:51 PM

You're elaborating too much, we're deciding who will win, we're not going into major details here.

Well I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to but..
Let's just say I'll try not to in the future D:

You don't know that.
You have literally no proof to support that.

What about this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/02/)?

Doctor Octogonapus

10-11-2008, 11:22 PM

Well I'm not sure what exactly you're referring to but..
Let's just say I'll try not to in the future D:

You're saying how and when he will move.
Which is writing the fight yourself.

What about this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/392/02/)?

Whadda'ya know lol.
Guess my previous post wrong xD

D.I.Y Death

10-12-2008, 08:03 AM

Bwahaha this is easy now. Since this is full vision/young Itachi all we know for certain is he has the Sharingan and Great fireball jutsu. Even if he has MS younger Itachi has to learn how to control his MS and might not have full knowledge of what awoken that fateful day. You also now must remove his experience with s-class criminals and ALL knowledge of Jiraiya gained through anything other than hearsay and books. You would have been better off sticking with half blind Itachi.

Smiley

10-12-2008, 11:49 AM

You're saying how and when he will move.
Which is writing the fight yourself.

If oil is everywhere around Itachi and Jiraiya, and Itachi wants to use Amaterasu.. What will he do?
Of course, he'll move to the surface where there is no oil.

That's what any ninja with average intelligence would do D:

Bwahaha this is easy now. Since this is full vision/young Itachi all we know for certain is he has the Sharingan and Great fireball jutsu.

No. We know for sure that he had Tsukoyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o.

You also now must remove his experience with s-class

This is preskip-Itachi not 10 years old Itachi.

D.I.Y Death

10-13-2008, 06:34 AM

If oil is everywhere around Itachi and Jiraiya, and Itachi wants to use Amaterasu.. What will he do?
Of course, he'll move to the surface where there is no oil.

That's what any ninja with average intelligence would do D:

And a ninja with the capability would simply spew more oil. Jiraiya has the chakra levels and his chakra usage will be further decreased when entering Sage Mode while gaining strength.

His fire techniques are a hazard for him to use because of the oil. You cannot deny this without looking stupid.

No. We know for sure that he had Tsukoyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o.

Did you see him use Susano in pre time skip? Please provide a link.

This is preskip-Itachi not 10 years old Itachi.

The you can only use techniques used in pre skip. Susano is not valid anymore.

Smiley

10-13-2008, 12:33 PM

Did you see him use Susano in pre time skip? Please provide a link.

He had the technique. Thus, he was able to use it.

Look, 100% healthy and not blind Itachi with Tsukoyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o would win.
I'm not debating any other version of Itachi.
If take Susano'o away, we're greatly handcapping Itachi by taking away one of his three main techniques WHICH WE KNOW HE HAD.

Muffin

10-13-2008, 01:43 PM

Itachi's eye sight would be similar or the same as when he fought Sasuke. Look at Sasuke he just got his mangekyo and after using it a few times his eye sight has already begun to suffer.

I'm assuming this is pre skip Itachi here so he still doesn't have the chakra necessary to last any longer against Jiraiya than he would normally. He used Tsukiyomi twice and Amaterasu once and he had to rest. The dynamics of the battle are not changed much at all, unless your going to start giving Jiraiya handicaps he still won't lose to Itachi.

Smiley

10-13-2008, 02:19 PM

Well that makes more sense than "Preskip Itachi doesn't have Susanoo" BS.
But to get technical, Itachi can use MS more than 3 times.
In the fight vs. Konoha's jounin he made a kage bunshin, that took away 50% of his chakra.
So even before using his MS he was at 50%, meaning that he can use his MS at least 6 times in one fight.

Also I'm still dying to hear what Jiraiya will do when Itachi uses Susano'o.

Muffin

10-13-2008, 02:54 PM

Saying Itachi can use mangekyo 6 times is seriously stretching it imo. There's really nothing to support it. I can't see how he lost half his chakra by using one shadow clone, if that was how it worked Naruto would've been absolutely screwed after trying to fight Kimimaro considering he made hundreds of them he would've only had about a hundredth of his chakra left. 4 is the absolute maximum number of times i could see Itachi using his mangekyo (not including susanoo).

As for what Jiraiya can do Itachi would need to survive long enough for it to be able to come into play. If he somehow does miraculously make it out long enough then Jiraiya can do either the toad song or Swamp of the underworld.

Now what i'd like to know is how Itachi can survive should Jiraiya do the same smoke bomb - Hair needle barrage combo against Itachi.

Smiley

10-13-2008, 03:14 PM

Saying Itachi can use mangekyo 6 times is seriously stretching it imo. There's really nothing to support it. I can't see how he lost half his chakra by using one shadow clone, if that was how it worked Naruto would've been absolutely screwed after trying to fight Kimimaro considering he made hundreds of them he would've only had about a hundredth of his chakra left.

Isn't chakra split equally to all bunshins?
Also, if I remember correctly he released a bit of Kyuubi's chakra against Kimimaro(his eyes went red).

If he somehow does miraculously make it out long enough then Jiraiya can do either the toad song or Swamp of the underworld.

Toad's song requires Hermit mode, Swamp of the underworld can easily be escaped with Shunshin or Kawarimi.

Now what i'd like to know is how Itachi can survive should Jiraiya do the same smoke bomb - Hair needle barrage combo against Itachi.

Hermit mode required. I don't think avoiding it would be a problem for the Sharingan user, though.

Muffin

10-13-2008, 03:31 PM

Isn't chakra split equally to all bunshins?
Also, if I remember correctly he released a bit of Kyuubi's chakra against Kimimaro(his eyes went red).

If it did then you'd never run out of chakra if you did just keep splitting, but the reason it was forbidden was because the users with low chakra would run out and die very quickly from using it. So i don't think just using one would split your chakra in half.

Toad's song requires Hermit mode, Swamp of the underworld can easily be escaped with Shunshin or Kawarimi.
Why wouldn't Jiraiya be able to get into Hermit mode? Genjutsu on summons can be undone. And there's no way you can prove that Itachi can use both Susanoo and shushin or Kawarimi at the same time considering the intense physical strain it puts on the user.

Hermit mode required. I don't think avoiding it would be a problem for the Sharingan user, though.

Why wouldn't it be a problem? It doesn't have the penetrating abilities of Byakugan and doesn't give more eye sight. Itachi won't see hand seals behind a smoke cloud he can be tricked into thinking the toad leaping out is Jiraiya and be nailed from behind by Jiraiya's intense speed.

LaserMonkey

10-13-2008, 03:40 PM

By younger Itachi, you mean like ANBU Itachi? or the time when he killed the uchiha clan?

Well, for starters, i don't think Itachi would be able to handle Jiraiya at the age of 13 or whatever. Plus, i don't even think that Itachi had all these techniques that he has now back then. So for jiraiya, He's a sanin. Sage Mode, Rasengan, And Gamabunta. Younger Itachi is good, but he wouldn't be able to match Jiraiya. I mean, yeah Itachi has MS at the age. But Jiraiya, he has sage mode dude.

Smiley

10-13-2008, 04:13 PM

If it did then you'd never run out of chakra if you did just keep splitting, but the reason it was forbidden was because the users with low chakra would run out and die very quickly from using it. So i don't think just using one would split your chakra in half.

I'm pretty sure it was stated that the chakra is split equally.
I'll try to find a link later.

Why wouldn't Jiraiya be able to get into Hermit mode? Genjutsu on summons can be undone

Not if his hands are busy summoning Ma and Pa toad.

And there's no way you can prove that Itachi can use both Susanoo and shushin or Kawarimi at the same time considering the intense physical strain it puts on the user.

Shunshin doesn't take much chakra or put a strain on the user, hence why we see Sasuke using it constantly during his fights.

And also, he was coughing blood up because of his disease, not Susanoo. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/14/)
So we can't know if Susano'o puts any strain on the user at all.

The Totsuka sword should also be able to seal the swamp.

Why wouldn't it be a problem? It doesn't have the penetrating abilities of Byakugan and doesn't give more eye sight. Itachi won't see hand seals behind a smoke cloud he can be tricked into thinking the toad leaping out is Jiraiya and be nailed from behind by Jiraiya's intense speed.

I will reply on this when you tell me how he will get to Hermit mode.

Muffin

10-13-2008, 04:48 PM

I'm pretty sure it was stated that the chakra is split equally.
I'll try to find a link later.

I'm sure it was too, but i don't see how using it once would split your chakra in half if Naruto can use it so many times in battle without going Kyuubi.

Not if his hands are busy summoning Ma and Pa toad.

He was able to create a barrier by just clicking his feet together, he can dispel genjutsu by flowing his chakra through the summons.

Shunshin doesn't take much chakra or put a strain on the user, hence why we see Sasuke using it constantly during his fights.

And also, he was coughing blood up because of his disease, not Susanoo. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/14/)
So we can't know if Susano'o puts any strain on the user at all.

The Totsuka sword should also be able to seal the swamp.

high speed movement uses a whole load of stamina, (Lee said this during the chuunin exams) something Itachi doesn't have a whole lot of if he's using a physically demanding technique like Susanoo there will be no way he can combine it with something like Shushin.

He was barely able to walk after using Susanoo. Notice the entire time he was gasping for air. You can't say it was purely the disease when Itachi admitted he had no chakra left but still was able to use Susanoo. It's obvious Susanoo will still carry a physically demanding role with or without the disease.

How do you seal a swamp? He would need to seal away the very earth itself.

I will reply on this when you tell me how he will get to Hermit mode.

Seems like an overly weak cop-out in my opinion. Jiraiya won't be stopped getting into hermit mode. He could summon, spit oil in Itachi's eyes, create some bushins, use swamp of the underworld to trap Itachi in the ground take your pick.

Smiley

10-13-2008, 05:59 PM

He was able to create a barrier by just clicking his feet together, he can dispel genjutsu by flowing his chakra through the summons.

Ok. I agree, you're right about that.
He could use Tsukoyomi, and since it's an instant in real world, he can't snap his summon out of it.
He could directly attack Jiraiya(who is on the summon's head) with Amaterasu.
And since Jiraiya's hands are busy he won't be able to do anything to avoid it, even if he under normal circumstances could.

And although not necessary, Susanoo, to seal both Jiraiya (who can't do swamp of the underworld or protect himself since his hands are clasped) and the summon.

You can't say it was purely the disease when Itachi admitted he had no chakra left but still was able to use Susanoo.

I'm pretty sure he said SASUKE was out of chakra. They only said Itachi looked exhausted, but not that he was completely out of chakra.
He was also, unlike Sasuke able to use the Sharingan, even while in Susano'o.

How do you seal a swamp?

You stick the sword in it.
"Anyone or anything" can be sealed.

spit oil in Itachi's eyes, create some bushins, use swamp of the underworld to trap Itachi in the ground take your pick

Itachi won't be hit with oil, or swamp of the underworld. I don't think I have to elaborate.
If he uses bunshins, then Itachi uses Shunshin [1 (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/09/)] to quickly get behind Jiraiya and kill him. (the real one is focused on summoning Ma and Pa toad)

Seems like an overly weak cop-out in my opinion

Ok, even though I don't think the sennin mode is happening, I'll reply anyways.
Since we're assuming that a single kage bunshin takes less than 50% of the user's chakra, then Itachi could use KB explosion the blow the smoke away and then dodge Jiraiya's attacks normally.