Minato vs. Pein (OFFICIAL THREAD)

[Xyamato5X]

Location: Small grassy field, with sparse forests nearby.
Distance: Face off at 50 meters.
Abilities: As last seen in manga.
Restrictions: None.
Mind-set: In-character. Fighting to kill.

Minato needs to destroy the Pein Rikudou to win. He does not need to find and kill Nagato.

[Summer.]

Don't know enough about either really right now, other than they r both rly strong

agree.
we can make only predicts about this fight, since we know NOTHING about minato's fight style, and not much about pein's either.

[Deadpool]

I think yellow would win this one... Pein vs. Minato is an =Draw

The whole white flash would been the winner. Pein isnt that strong. Thats Minato vs. Pein=Draw so the whole white flash vs. Pein= White Flash win

[BK-nin]

1 i'm gonna need you to speak more clearly on that
2 pein is seen as god

[Summer.]

The whole white flash would been the winner. Pein isnt that strong.

ehm...
he was strong enough to beat the ninja, who beat all 3 legendary sannins at the same time though... not to mention that hanzou had guard all around him...

[Doctor Octogonapus]

This thread shoudln't exist either.
Pein will definitly win.
He beat an entire village by himself.
He killed the man who beat all three legendary sannin at the same time, and he beat him almost easily.
Minato was stronger than Jiriaya, no doubt. But not all three sannin.
No way he will beat Pein.

[The8tailed1]

This thread shoudln't exist either.
Pein will definitly win.
He beat an entire village by himself.
He killed the man who beat all three legendary sannin at the same time, and he beat him almost easily.
Minato was stronger than Jiriaya, no doubt. But not all three sannin.
No way he will beat Pein.

for arguements sake lets say pein is stronger than the fourth wouldn't he either come up with a strategy or use that special jutsu of his in order to take him down.

[LaserMonkey]

Who do you think will win this battle

Yondaime or Pein?

I think Yondaime, he is the 4th Hokage, Yellow flash, Creator of
Death Reaper Jutsu.

Do you think Pein whould stand a chance against Yondaime?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

of course he will.
No offense but what a dumb quesion.
Jiriaya stands no chance against Pein at all.
Minato was a tad bit stornger than Jiriaya.
You think that with that little tad that he can beat all three sannin, when all three of them were at full strength and charge in at once?

[LaserMonkey]

Pein cannot take on all three sannins <_<

and i apprieate this reply "No offence but what a dumb quesiton" i really appreate it lol.....

D'oh Yondaime will win, Pein maybe a AL but he not a hokage <_<

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Pein can beat all 3 of the sannin at the same time.
he beat an entire village on his own.
he beat the strongest ninja ever to live on his own.
He beat Hanzou, the storngest ninja to ever live, on his own, Hanzou beat all three sannin at the same time, not to mention the rest of their elite squad.
Minato will not win this.

[LaserMonkey]

So Pein is really the strongest Ninja ever correct?

[Summer.]

yes he is.

edit: but I think he won't be the strongest forever^^

[Doctor Octogonapus]

yes he is.

edit: but I think he won't be the strongest forever^^

Of course he won't.
But we won't see anyone get stornger than him.
Like I've pointed out many times.
We have 3 or 4 story arcs left.
I think if Pein dies it'll be either the gayest and stupidest victory ever, so stupid that it shoudn't even be allowed to be viewed by human eyes(i.e. Ichigo vs. Renji), or it will be lucky, and on a whim(i.e. Naruto vs. Sasuke)

[LaserMonkey]

Can Pein even match Yondaimes Speed?

Since Majin made the point here, i am going to change my vote to Pein now.

[Summer.]

but look... naruto learned FRS in ONE WEEK! normal person ( even if very talented one) would need for it many YEARS.
Idk, but I think he has potential to eventually surpass pein...

[LaserMonkey]

But, Naruto is not stronger than Pein, Not yet atleast....

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Yes but there isn't time for another 10 chapter training montage.
Naruto can get as strong as Jiriaya by the end of the series maybe.
But definitly not 5 times stronger than that.

[LaserMonkey]

Probaly Naruto will be the strongest ninja in the end of the series, this is my opinion gawd <_<

[Summer.]

well, maybe they won't show us all the training... just the results xDD

[LaserMonkey]

But a rough fight would be Kyubi Naruto vs. Pein

Pein will have a hard time of fighting him, The Red Chakara protects Natuto, so i think the only person that can defeat Pein is NARUTO.

This is my opinion.....

:EDIT: I have a question, did they even show Hanzou in Manga chapters?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

But a rough fight would be Kyubi Naruto vs. Pein

Pein will have a hard time of fighting him, The Red Chakara protects Natuto, so i think the only person that can defeat Pein is NARUTO.

This is my opinion.....

Okay, and in Pein and the world's defense.
If pein dies, Naruto dies.
Naruto can only match Pein's strength by going like 8 tails.
Cause 4 tails was nothing to Orochimaru.
And once he goes 8 tails he'll be unstoppable, Yamato couldn't catch him, nor surpress him.
He'll have to be killed.

[Summer.]

but naruto said he won't use kyuubi anymore

[LaserMonkey]

Try Nine Tails Majin and will talk about a extreame fight against Pein and Naruto.

Wait wouldn't that kill Naruto if he releases the Nine Tails?

:EDIT: Summer, he probaly meant when their is great danger *Coughs* Pein's Descruction *Coughs*

[Summer.]

yes it would kill him.
he was badly injured when he was only 4-tailed.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Try Nine Tails Majin and will talk about a extreame fight against Pein and Naruto.

Wait wouldn't that kill Naruto if he releases the Nine Tails?

:EDIT: Summer, he probaly meant when their is great danger *Coughs* Pein's Descruction *Coughs*

No.
it'll destroy Naruto, and make Naruto, Kyuubi.
Therefore history repeats itself and two important characters die, Naruto and Kakashi or Tsunade.
And then the only new born baby would be Kurenei's so the nine tails would be sealed in Kurenei and Asuma's baby and Shikamaru would take care of the child and train it and yada yada yada.

[hyugamaster]

why would shikamaru take care of it besides the baby wouldnt even have a father because asuma dies so wouldnt you give it to someone who has a father?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

why would shikamaru take care of it besides the baby wouldnt even have a father because asuma dies so wouldnt you give it to someone who has a father?

You've obviously have only heard what's happened or read summaries.
Because, Shikamaru said himself to Kurenei, that he will help take care of the kid.

[hyugamaster]

Kurenai knows Shikamaru so why would you leave your kid in the hands of a shadow loving lazy bum

[hyugamaster]

im a genin whipeeeee(sorry about double posting i know it annoys you)

[naruto_pwns_emosasuke]

Pein v. Minato would be interesting, we havent seen all that either can do. I find it hard to believe that minato would die unless he used the death reaper seal because if he gets introuble he can telport anywhere he left one of his special kunei. And pein, well pein is a monster.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Kurenai knows Shikamaru so why would you leave your kid in the hands of a shadow loving lazy bum

I can really tell you don't read the manga now.
He's not a lazy bum. He set off to kill Hidan with ambition for revenge.
And he beat Hidan.
And now he's no longer the lazy bum, he's willing to do what he has to, he's more ambitious now.
He went to Kurenei herself and told her that he'll be there to help her with the baby.

Also the double posting not only annoys me, but it's not allowed and you'll get reported for it.

[hyugamaster]

but right now i say minato

[hyugamaster]

maybe but he still retains his lazy character traits because even in shippuden hes too lazy to turn off his alarm clock

[Doctor Octogonapus]

maybe but he still retains his lazy character traits because even in shippuden hes too lazy to turn off his alarm clock

IT HASNT HAPPENED YET!
You need to read the damn manga if your gonna be in the manga battledome.
You don't know what your talking about.

[hyugamaster]

your just proving my point shikamaru is lazy

[Doctor Octogonapus]

HE WAS!!!!!!!!
HES NOT ANY-BLOODY-MORE!
HE'S AMBITIOUS!
HE'S SWORN TO ASUMA THAT HE WILL PROTECT KURENEI'S CHILD AND THE CHILDREN OF THE NEXT GENERATION!
He is no longer lazy.

[LaserMonkey]

Are we just spamming this thread?

I thought it was about Minato and Pein <_<

:EDIT: And Shikamaru is not lazy anymore.

[hyugamaster]

your retarded how can you get rid of your character trait

[LaserMonkey]

Who's retarded, if your calling majin is, than you should look in the mirror. <_<

your starting to piss me off -_-

but i'll stay calm

[Doctor Octogonapus]

your retarded how can you get rid of your character trait

Things change.
Things drastically change.
He grew up pretty much.
I'm incredibly different than I was 4 months ago.
Things change.
People change.

[LaserMonkey]

Majin is right. <_<

he proves that Shika ain't lazy no more <_<

[hyugamaster]

this is different when your 4 months all u no is eat crap cry and sleep now you know alot more lazyness has nothing to do with how much you no. like have u ever seen a scientist theyre mad smart but there terribly lazy

[Doctor Octogonapus]

1. I said four months AGO.
2. Shikamaru is not lazy anymore.

[LaserMonkey]

Dammit, Hyugamaster STOP SPAMMING THIS DAMN THREAD! <_<

and stop being mean to majin. -_-

[hyugamaster]

im not being mean im just trying to prove a point i actually like her(not like that) and respect her intellect

[LaserMonkey]

lol majin is a guy ^_^

and i know you wernt being mean, or did i xDD

My bad for doing that to you Hyuga

[Doctor Octogonapus]

im not being mean im just trying to prove a point i actually like her(not like that) and respect her intellect

That pisses me off almost as much as when people call me a kid...IM A BOY!


Also there's no point to prove.
He's just not lazy anymore.

[iRob]

im going pein he is a really strong ninja took on an entire village and can get the sannin at the same time pein is really strong

[Uchiha Obito]

I think everybody like to pretend they know allot about Yondaime, when they really dont. Come on, we've only seen him do one jutsu, which he probably doesn't even use all the time. We cant assume we know everything about him, that's all I'm saying.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I think everybody like to pretend they know allot about Yondaime, when they really dont. Come on, we've only seen him do one jutsu, which he probably doesn't even use all the time. We cant assume we know everything about him, that's all I'm saying.

True.
But he know he can do,

Summoning Jutsu.
Rasengan.
The Teleporting thing.

[Sasori[RedSand]]

Pein wins,his eyes are just out of everyones league
and shikamaru is just a little lazy now but with serious things likeDeath of AsumaHe will do what he must and go all the way
so shika go get them ))
Majin do u know any of hanzou jutsus if u do pls tell me ))

[Doctor Octogonapus]

;54434']Pein wins,his eyes are just out of everyones league
and shikamaru is just a little lazy now but with serious things likeDeath of AsumaHe will do what he must and go all the way
so shika go get them ))
Majin do u know any of hanzou jutsus if u do pls tell me ))

No i don't srry.

[Konoha's Warrior]

Tie or ending up with "Reaper Death Seal" on Pein.

[KingTW]

Let's not 4get the theory that Minato might b Pein xD

[The8tailed1]

Let's not 4get the theory that Minato might b Pein xD

Don't go into that one because I tried and got chewed out for it.

[KingTW]

haha, i never said I believed in it, I just said don't 4get

I would like to c it happen though, that would add a nice twist to the series xD

[shikadude]

Yondaime would probably win, but who knows

[JackpottJinchuuriki]

hmmm...im thinkin Pein....and i wonder...y does everyone spell him name like Pain??? he is not a feeling of hurt fer jeezus christmas!! lol xD PEIN!
but anywayz...pein would so win...there r like, 6 of him rite!?!? lol he can use that jutsu

[Minato]

ill go with minato . Pein is strong who said he isnt. Ill Stick with Minato

[hyugamaster]

stalemate

[Soul]

Summer. if you seen the preview of the game naruto clash of ninja 3 it shows all
of his fighting styles, hes even faster than speed of light. which is why hes called the ''yellow flash'' ^_^

[Summer.]

Summer. if you seen the preview of the game naruto clash of ninja 3 it shows all
of his fighting styles, hes even faster than speed of light. which is why hes called the ''yellow flash'' ^_^

I didn't.
but I think we can't make statements based on game.
I think that manga is the only reliable source.

[Tohno Takaki]

even in manga he has defeated many many shinobi at once

[Night_Shade]

This would be one of the greatest battles of all time!!!!!!!
The greatest Akatsuki member versus the legendary "Yellow Flash" of Konoha.
Is Pein's Rinnengan too much for the almighty Yondaime -or- would the originator of the Rasengan slaughter the "6 paths of Pein"?
Tell me wut u think...........

[Naruto_Uchiha]

wow thats a toguh 1! im confidant in the 4th, but considering pein is the page of 6 paths, and also has the rin'nengan...
id bet minato will win

[Katon]

I'll bet Pein. Simply because one Pein is bad enough, and when there is six, they aren't together for a tea party. And they kiled Jaraiya in hermit mode...(I think) and Jaraiya was a student of the third who was considered the god of all shinobi. So I say Pein.

[Uzuki]

Why would you think Pein is the strongest Akatsuki member when he takes orders from Tobi?

[Katon]

Tobi is Madara...and Madara taught Itachi...but we aren't talking about Tobi fightning Yondaime.

[Uzuki]

Right, but if Pein takes orders from Tobi (who is Madara), why would you think that Pein is the strongest Akatsuki member?

I dunno, I guess my logic is this:

Jiraiya/Kakashi both seem to believe that it's fate that future generations surpass older generations. That would seem to indicate Pein would beat Yondaime, since Pein is younger.

However, Pein is weaker than Madara. Madara has been beaten by the Konoha founder, who is weaker than Yondaime. Thus, Yondaime may be stronger than Madara.

If Pein is weaker than Madara, and Yondaime is stronger than Madara, then Yondaime should be stronger than Pein.

[Katon]

XD I lost you at right.

But I see your point. I suppose there is logic there. Good point.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Right, but if Pein takes orders from Tobi (who is Madara), why would you think that Pein is the strongest Akatsuki member?


Tobi is not Madara.
Tobi is _____dara.

Jiraiya/Kakashi both seem to believe that it's fate that future generations surpass older generations. That would seem to indicate Pein would beat Yondaime, since Pein is younger.

Pein is Older.

However, Pein is weaker than Madara. Madara has been beaten by the Konoha founder, who is weaker than Yondaime. Thus, Yondaime may be stronger than Madara.

Madara is half a guy's head. I'm stronger than Madara.


And Minato has no chance.
The one person who can beat Pein is Jiriaya.

[Katon]

Didn't Pein already kill Jaraiya anyways?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Yep.

[Uzuki]

Why would you think Jiraya is stronger than Yondaime?

Also, why would you think that Madara is half a head? You sure you're not thinking of Obito?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Why would you think Jiraya is stronger than Yondaime?

Because technically he is.
Minato obviously never fought Jiriaya in Hermit Mode.
He cannot beat Jiriaya in Hermit Mode.
And anyway.
Only Jiriaya can beat Pein because only he knew all 6 of those people so only he could have unlocked his secret.


Also, why would you think that Madara is half a head? You sure you're not thinking of Obito?

Oh haha this is gonna be fun.
Madara is 115 years old the body starts to decay physically around that time, things aren't supossed to live that long, not to mention he is considered Immortal, the only way to become Immortal is Orochimaru's Technique, otherwise Orochimaru would not have been developing one if there already was one. Madara would have to live in a body just like Orochimaru, but the difference between Madara and Orochimaru is that Madara is living in a body that is alive unlike Orochimaru who takes over dead bodies so he has full control. Madara however does not have full control and Tobi's Second Half is seen in control most of the time.
Madara is half of a head.
The head belongs to Obito Uchiha.

[Uzuki]

Because technically he is.
Minato obviously never fought Jiriaya in Hermit Mode.
He cannot beat Jiriaya in Hermit Mode.
And anyway.
Only Jiriaya can beat Pein because only he knew all 6 of those people so only he could have unlocked his secret.

Hermit mode didn't really impress me. He just wore some extra paint and had some singing frogs on his shoulders.

But we do know that Minato could fully control Gama Bunta, which is something that Jiriaya could not do.

Minato is also seriously faster than Jiriaya.




Oh haha this is gonna be fun.
Madara is 115 years old the body starts to decay physically around that time, things aren't supossed to live that long, not to mention he is considered Immortal, the only way to become Immortal is Orochimaru's Technique, otherwise Orochimaru would not have been developing one if there already was one. Madara would have to live in a body just like Orochimaru, but the difference between Madara and Orochimaru is that Madara is living in a body that is alive unlike Orochimaru who takes over dead bodies so he has full control. Madara however does not have full control and Tobi's Second Half is seen in control most of the time.
Madara is half of a head.
The head belongs to Obito Uchiha.

Um...making stuff up doesn't make it true? I'm not sure what to say to this. I just read all the manga from Shippuden's current spot to the current issue over the past two days, and there's nothing to indicate any of this stuff in the manga.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Hermit mode didn't really impress me. He just wore some extra paint and had some singing frogs on his shoulders.

But we do know that Minato could fully control Gama Bunta, which is something that Jiriaya could not do.

Minato is also seriously faster than Jiriaya.

Jiriaya's Frog's are Gammabunta's Parents.
Gammabunta would not fight his parents.
His frogs have Genjutsu, he has Three Rasengans while Minato has one.
All Minato has is speed and will have to attack from behind in which his hand would be sliced to pieces because of Jiriaya's hair that covers his entire back side and can also work as a frontal defense as well.



Um...making stuff up doesn't make it true? I'm not sure what to say to this. I just read all the manga from Shippuden's current spot to the current issue over the past two days, and there's nothing to indicate any of this stuff in the manga.

I'm not making this stuff up.
You are not reading between the lines at all.
Everything I have said, minus the Obito part(which is 99% true but has not been revealed) is true.
I have been doing this argument for months believe I know what I'm talking about.

Tobi is not Madara's Body, especially since in Shippuden Tobi's Voice is that of a younger man's.
Tobi has bolts lining his body, something that would be needed if you have been crushed between rocks.
Tobi has two personalities, one matches Obito's, the other matches Madara's.
Madara is after Sasuke, yet Tobi is in front of Kakashi which I said myself months ago, the only way Tobi is 100% Obito(now Obidara) is if he shows up in front of Kakashi instead of Sasuke.
And Kishimoto, the author himself said a big event will happen to Kakashi this year.

[Uzuki]

The big event that's going to happen to Kakashi is that he's going to become Hokage after Tsunade dies. You know, that whole foreshadowing between Tsunade and Jiriaya before Jiriaya dies.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

The big event that's going to happen to Kakashi is that he's going to become Hokage after Tsunade dies. You know, that whole foreshadowing between Tsunade and Jiriaya before Jiriaya dies.

No he's not.
Unless Kishimoto is losing his talents as a writer that won't happen.
Kakashi is not fit for Hokage in anyway.
And if that was true, or if Tobi wasn't Obidara, he would not be in front of Kakashi.

[Uzuki]

The current Hokage and Jiriaya both seem to think Kakashi's fit to be Hokage. He is the son of Konoha's White Fang, which is said to be as powerful as the Legendary Sannin. And he was trained by a former Hokage. He's got the right pedigree.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

The current Hokage and Jiriaya both seem to think Kakashi's fit to be Hokage. He is the son of Konoha's White Fang, which is said to be as powerful as the Legendary Sannin. And he was trained by a former Hokage. He's got the right pedigree.

But he is not a Five-Star General.
He's a Captain.
He is a leader he won't just sit back and do paperwork until he's 80.
He is 30 years old, this isn't like where they picked the Fourth because he was actually the strongest, Shikaku and Hiashi are stronger and smarter than Kakashi.
kakashi should not be Hokage.

[Teh4th:)]

I'd go for Yondaime.
Jiraiya lost to Pein. Maybe, because he lost concentration when he saw Nagato,Yahiko,and Konan.
I think Jiraiya can defeat Pein.
Yondaime can kill the 6 bodies in a flash.
I go for Yondaime!

[Naruto_Uchiha]

I'd go for Yondaime.
Jiraiya lost to Pein. Maybe, because he lost concentration when he saw Nagato,Yahiko,and Konan.
I think Jiraiya can defeat Pein.
Yondaime can kill the 6 bodies in a flash.
I go for Yondaime!

i second that. besides, yondaime won the battle against the nine tailed fox demon. could pein do that? nooooooooo. the kyubi would rip his six bodies to shreds within seconds. only reason the 4th died (if he died for sure) is becasue he used a jutsu to seal the kyubi wich killed him. he did that to save the village. were talking about pein vs yondaime for their lives. not their lived ones

[Muffin]

But he is not a Five-Star General.
He's a Captain.
He is a leader he won't just sit back and do paperwork until he's 80.
He is 30 years old, this isn't like where they picked the Fourth because he was actually the strongest, Shikaku and Hiashi are stronger and smarter than Kakashi.
kakashi should not be Hokage.

Well i would hardly call Tsunade a 5 star general either. :p

But Pein would defeat Yondaime, i like Yondaime but Pein is one bamf.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Yondaime took out an entire opposing ninja army on his own I seriously think he has more then enough to defeat Pein with or without his secret.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I'd go for Yondaime.
Jiraiya lost to Pein. Maybe, because he lost concentration when he saw Nagato,Yahiko,and Konan.
I think Jiraiya can defeat Pein.
Yondaime can kill the 6 bodies in a flash.
I go for Yondaime!

No he cannot. The only person who can defeat Pein is JIRIAYA! I don't care how strong Minato is unless Minato somehow went back in time before he was born and had the same experiences Jiriaya had with those 6 People. HE CAN'T WIN!


I second that. besides, yondaime won the battle against the nine tailed fox demon. could pein do that? nooooooooo.

YES!
And also Minato didn't BEAT the Nine-Tails Fox, he went out there, and killed himself and sealed the demon away, he didn't fight, he would have LOST.

Well i would hardly call Tsunade a 5 star general either. :p

I know I couldn't remember the name of the Top Officer in the Military, but she's that, she's the strongest, wisest, and most experienced in the village(given that we aren't counting the elders of course)

Yondaime took out an entire opposing ninja army on his own I seriously think he has more then enough to defeat Pein with or without his secret.

Okay, Minato took out an Opposing Army by himself, in what village? A crappy one because Sand and Leaf are Allies and it wasn't rain.
So he beat a Crappy Army.

Hanzou defeated all three Sannin and their entire squadron at the same time.

Then, Pein came in, beat Hanzou and his entire Army, the strongest army in the world, He beat them.

So if you are comparing this to what they have done, Pein wins easily.

[Kaden]

pein wins. minato would be like jiriya, destroy a couple of the peins.


what's peins secret?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

^^You don't have to use spoilers here this is manga section.
We don't know yet.

[Naruto_Uchiha]

my opinion hasn't changed since the begining. look at it this way. yondaime is strongest of all hokages so far. 1st, who yondaime is stroger then, beat madara. that makes yondaime stronger then tobi, who can control pein s though he were a puppet

[Doctor Octogonapus]

my opinion hasn't changed since the begining. look at it this way. yondaime is strongest of all hokages so far. 1st, who yondaime is stroger then, beat madara. that makes yondaime stronger then tobi, who can control pein s though he were a puppet

Well that's probably because you aren't understanding what I am saying. I can't make it any clearer.
1. Minato never beat Madara.
2. Tobi is not Madara
3. Because of the Sharingan most likely.

Also, I have stated this before this is a fact that is why I keep repeating myself, if you dont believe me then read the manga then come back because I am tired of me repeating myself in every single debate.

Jiriaya was the only one who could beat Pein.
To beat Pein you have to know his secret, to know his secret you have to have had the experiences Jiriaya had with those 6 people.
Minato was not alive then nor does he know those 6 people.
Therefore, he cannot unlock his secret, therefore cannot win.

[Uzuki]

Why do you keep saying that Tobi isn't Madara when the manga clearly said that Tobi is Madara?

[Muffin]

I know I couldn't remember the name of the Top Officer in the Military, but she's that, she's the strongest, wisest, and most experienced in the village(given that we aren't counting the elders of course)

Okay, Minato took out an Opposing Army by himself, in what village? A crappy one because Sand and Leaf are Allies and it wasn't rain.
So he beat a Crappy Army.

Hanzou defeated all three Sannin and their entire squadron at the same time.

Then, Pein came in, beat Hanzou and his entire Army, the strongest army in the world, He beat them.

So if you are comparing this to what they have done, Pein wins easily.

Meh Tsunade was still the 2nd choice for Hokage behind Jiraiya, she only got the job because Jiraiya told them she was still alive.

Minato defeated a rock village army. The rain village is not the strongest village, it was basically the whipping boy of all the villages, Hanzou was the rain's saving grace and the only reason it wasn't eradicated along time ago. To be fair Pein killed Hanzou first then went and killed all his friends and family which is pretty awesome imo.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

No he cannot. The only person who can defeat Pein is JIRIAYA! I don't care how strong Minato is unless Minato somehow went back in time before he was born and had the same experiences Jiriaya had with those 6 People. HE CAN'T WIN!
How do you come to this conclusion? Just because he didn't know the secret of Pein doesn't mean he can't beat him as the secret will only tell you the Best way to beat him not the only way just the best. Pein isn't invincible remember.

Okay, Minato took out an Opposing Army by himself, in what village? A crappy one because Sand and Leaf are Allies and it wasn't rain.
So he beat a Crappy Army.
Hanzou defeated all three Sannin and their entire squadron at the same time.
Then, Pein came in, beat Hanzou and his entire Army, the strongest army in the world, He beat them.
So if you are comparing this to what they have done, Pein wins easily.
So basically all you've proven is that they both took out an army each. This is not conclusive proof that Pein will win easily nor that Minato will win either.


However Minato still has the extreme advantage of pure destructive speed which I think will give him victory.

[Kaden]

yet the secret is key. it allows the person attacking pein to not lose chakra or stamina.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Why do you keep saying that Tobi isn't Madara when the manga clearly said that Tobi is Madara?

The manga clearly says he is Obidara.
It is physically Impossible for Madara to be alive, the body starts to decay around 105 or 110, he is 115.
Not only that but the only way to become immortal is through Orochimaru's technique which is why he was developing it, why spend your life trying to get something that already exists?
If Madara is using Orochimaru's technique it cannot be his brother's body because his brother is long dead and bodies are inhabitable after 3 years and decay after longer.
Obito was not dead however and was left in Zetsu's Village.
Zetsu and Kakuzu can both fix him up but cannot repair the damage done to the right side of his brain, now this was 20 years ago, Madara was 95, and in the time this story takes place and in real life, that's basically staring death in the face.

Tobi acts exactly like Madara, and his other half acts exactly like Obito.

I told you I've been doing this debate for months I know what I am talking about.


Meh Tsunade was still the 2nd choice for Hokage behind Jiraiya, she only got the job because Jiraiya told them she was still alive.

Well no shit! She was the best choice for Hokage if Jiriaya didn't want to be Hokage.

Minato defeated a rock village army. The rain village is not the strongest village, it was basically the whipping boy of all the villages, Hanzou was the rain's saving grace and the only reason it wasn't eradicated along time ago. To be fair Pein killed Hanzou first then went and killed all his friends and family which is pretty awesome imo.

Rock village is definitely one of the weakest.
And Rain is the Strongest.
Rain is where Akatsuki resides, this is more significant in subbed since not everyone is dead.



How do you come to this conclusion? Just because he didn't know the secret of Pein doesn't mean he can't beat him as the secret will only tell you the Best way to beat him not the only way just the best. Pein isn't invincible remember.

How did I come to this conclusion?
I don't know maybe the way Jiriaya got his ass tossed around when he was at his 100% strongest AND when using TWO of the strongest allies he has(meaning toads of course)

Oh and also because if you kill one, he will come back.
Jiriaya killed 3, they came back.
The only way to beat Pein is to unlock his secret.
It should be obvious now after watching Jiriaya fight.


So basically all you've proven is that they both took out an army each. This is not conclusive proof that Pein will win easily nor that Minato will win either.

Then what was the point of bringing it up?

However Minato still has the extreme advantage of pure destructive speed which I think will give him victory.

Speed doesn't win battles.
Lee vs. Gaara.
Lee vs. Kimimaru
Sasuke vs. Gaara
Naruto(4-Tails) vs. Orochimaru
Naruto vs. Itachi Clone

Minato would not win because he does not know Pein's secret, he cannot unlock it therefore cannot win.
If it was possible to win without the secret you think Jiriaya would use his last breath to send it to Konoha?
If it meant nothing do you think he would risk it all to figure it out?

[Naruto_Uchiha]

well if pein IS stronger... then i'd definitely root for minato. and by the way matt, it says in the magna tobi IS madara, or atleast the remains of him

[Doctor Octogonapus]

well if pein IS stronger... then i'd definitely root for minato. and by the way matt, it says in the magna tobi IS madara, or atleast the remains of him

I know what the manga said, it never said Tobi is Madara.
It gave hints to Madara being PART of Tobi.

[Naruto_Uchiha]

you could be right there, cuz not only ave i never even SEEN a single magna page, but it would make sence if he was part of tobi

[Muffin]

The manga clearly says he is Obidara.
It is physically Impossible for Madara to be alive, the body starts to decay around 105 or 110, he is 115.
Not only that but the only way to become immortal is through Orochimaru's technique which is why he was developing it, why spend your life trying to get something that already exists?
If Madara is using Orochimaru's technique it cannot be his brother's body because his brother is long dead and bodies are inhabitable after 3 years and decay after longer.
Obito was not dead however and was left in Zetsu's Village.
Zetsu and Kakuzu can both fix him up but cannot repair the damage done to the right side of his brain, now this was 20 years ago, Madara was 95, and in the time this story takes place and in real life, that's basically staring death in the face.

Tobi acts exactly like Madara, and his other half acts exactly like Obito.

I told you I've been doing this debate for months I know what I am talking about.


5 letters: Hidan. We have no idea how old he was he could've been a 1000 for all we know. And if Madara is immortal because of PMS then he wouldn't mature like normal people. He would stay the way he was when he got those eyes. You can argue this theory for as long as you want (not saying your wrong) but until it is proven it cannot be used as fact.


Rock village is definitely one of the weakest.
And Rain is the Strongest.
Rain is where Akatsuki resides, this is more significant in subbed since not everyone is dead.

How would it matter if that army was weak? Minato wiped them out in a matter of seconds, even if they were all as strong as Jiraiya he basically owned them before they could even wonder what hit them.

Noone even enters rain, it's a village which was scared of anyone and anything coming in incase it wrecks the place, they were a village of wussies save for Pein or Hanzou and this is in the Manga section not subbed :p

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

The manga clearly says he is Obidara.
Ok give the chapter and page number that state Tobi is Obito.


Tobi acts exactly like Madara, and his other half acts exactly like Obito.
Actually Tobi doesn't act alot like Obito very much as Tobi is like a 5year old and Obito was like a wuss of a teenager.


Rock village is definitely one of the weakest.
And Rain is the Strongest.
Rain is where Akatsuki resides, this is more significant in subbed since not everyone is dead.

Where does it say which is stronger can you give me a reference please?



How did I come to this conclusion?
I don't know maybe the way Jiriaya got his ass tossed around when he was at his 100% strongest AND when using TWO of the strongest allies he has(meaning toads of course)

Oh and also because if you kill one, he will come back.
Jiriaya killed 3, they came back.
The only way to beat Pein is to unlock his secret.
It should be obvious now after watching Jiriaya fight.

But what if he was to destroy not kill destroy all six bodies? and remember it is possible to kill individual peins (As Jiraiya showed) so proof is there that the secret isn't needed to beat pein (But it probably helps alot)

Then what was the point of bringing it up?
well I made an argument and was simply acknowledging your counterargument voided my argument


Speed doesn't win battles.
Lee vs. Gaara.
Lee vs. Kimimaru
Sasuke vs. Gaara
Naruto(4-Tails) vs. Orochimaru
Naruto vs. Itachi Clone
Yet we are talking speed beyond anything these characters could ever even hope to match and as such would give a major advantage to the people using it especially when combined wth other high level techniques.


Minato would not win because he does not know Pein's secret, he cannot unlock it therefore cannot win.
If it was possible to win without the secret you think Jiriaya would use his last breath to send it to Konoha?
If it meant nothing do you think he would risk it all to figure it out?
You have to remember Jiraiya got caught off guard by the multiple bodies and if he had known about them beforehand he might have won anyway. Despite that the secret is undoubtedly the best way to defeat pein but not the only way meaning Minato could still win even without the secret.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

5 letters: Hidan. We have no idea how old he was he could've been a 1000 for all we know. And if Madara is immortal because of PMS then he wouldn't mature like normal people. He would stay the way he was when he got those eyes. You can argue this theory for as long as you want (not saying your wrong) but until it is proven it cannot be used as fact.

WHO GETS IMMORTAL FROM PMS!!!!
lmao.
I won't argue with the theory, although I think Madara's a guy....

Noone even enters rain, it's a village which was scared of anyone and anything coming in incase it wrecks the place, they were a village of wussies save for Pein or Hanzou and this is in the Manga section not subbed

They have Akatsuki and Pein. That's what makes them the strongest.

That's why Sound was the Strongest before Tsunade and Jiriaya came back to Konoha, Orochimaru.

Ok give the chapter and page number that state Tobi is Obito.

There isn't one. I've gathered this from reading the manga.

Actually Tobi doesn't act alot like Obito very much as Tobi is like a 5year old and Obito was like a wuss of a teenager.

That cried very easily, that was obnoxious, he was described as Naruto.
Tobi acts like Naruto did before becoming a Genin.

Where does it say which is stronger can you give me a reference please?

Seriously? Okay why are you in the battle dome if you are demanding a reference to everything?
There is no references that's why this is the battle dome and not the Bookstore.

But what if he was to destroy not kill destroy all six bodies? and remember it is possible to kill individual peins (As Jiraiya showed) so proof is there that the secret isn't needed to beat pein (But it probably helps alot)

Jiriaya killed 4, 3 came back, he had a frog take the body and haul ass.

Yet we are talking speed beyond anything these characters could ever even hope to match and as such would give a major advantage to the people using it especially when combined wth other high level techniques.

We've never really seen how fast Minato is, unless you are referring to Kakashi Gaiden where he fought the Rock Ninja in which I must say that speed is no faster than Sasuke, as well as that was hardly an army more like a Squadron at best.

You have to remember Jiriaya got caught off guard by the multiple bodies and if he had known about them beforehand he might have won anyway. Despite that the secret is undoubtedly the best way to defeat pein but not the only way meaning Minato could still win even without the secret.

6 on 1 vs. the Strongest 6 Ninja to ever live?
I don't think so.
Minato can't beat The Sannin and their Squadron all at the same time when the sannin were all at their prime.
Hanzou did that.
Then Pein annihilated Hanzou.

[Masterofdeath]

Your all idiots Pein is not the sage or his reincarntation for that matter. In naruto it is said that the Sage of Six Paths is the creator of ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu as well as the creator and taker of life. That means that there is a 99.9% chance he is still alive and just watching and waiting to make a move. Which means he has no where near the power of the Sage thus he stands no chance against Yodaime

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Your all idiots Pein is not the sage or his reincarntation for that matter. In naruto it is said that the Sage of Six Paths is the creator of ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu as well as the creator and taker of life. That means that there is a 99.9% chance he is still alive and just watching and waiting to make a move. Which means he has no where near the power of the Sage thus he stands no chance against Yodaime

1. You're talking out your ass here.
2. 99.9% chance that he's still alive? The creator of Ninja Arts? Impossible. Madara was a child and he was already practicing them, that was over 110 years ago, his clan also was practicing it before them, over 160 years ago. He is dead.
Pein has 6 Bodies, all of them are different people, all by one name. Pein.
Minato stands no chance against Pein.
It does not matter how fast he is, Speed will win battles against Amateurs, but against the best, you'll need more than Speed, and when it comes down to that, Jiriaya beats Minato in every category but speed. and Jiriaya was completely destroyed.
Speed will not do anything for Minato.

[Masterofdeath]

The sage can take or bring life you idiot!! He is probaly immortal like Madara.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I've never heard of this sage for one! And for two Madara is not immortal.

[Masterofdeath]

In the magna during the fight between Jiraiya and Pein Jiraiya discusses it and its relation to Nagato. look it up

'

[Doctor Octogonapus]

In the magna during the fight between Jiraiya and Pein Jiraiya discusses it and its relation to Nagato. look it up

'

Oh you mean the only person besides Pein to have mastered all levels of Ninjutsu and all elements?
Yeah he's not Pein or Minato so leave him out of the debate, he's not important.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

There isn't one. I've gathered this from reading the manga.
That cried very easily, that was obnoxious, he was described as Naruto.
Tobi acts like Naruto did before becoming a Genin.
Seriously? Okay why are you in the battle dome if you are demanding a reference to everything?
There is no references that's why this is the battle dome and not the Bookstore.
I'm asking for references because there seems to be very little to back up many of your claims and would actually like evidence to prove what you say.
Jiriaya killed 4, 3 came back, he had a frog take the body and haul ass.
So this just proves what I said which was that the Secret isn't actually necessary to kill pein as it has been proven Individuals can be taken out and not revived.
We've never really seen how fast Minato is, unless you are referring to Kakashi Gaiden where he fought the Rock Ninja in which I must say that speed is no faster than Sasuke, as well as that was hardly an army more like a Squadron at best.
He was way faster then Sasuke could ever dream to be using his thundergod technique he could move faster then any character ever in the whole Naruto series and he was so feared all enemy no matter how many there were, were
to run the second they saw him. That doesn't sound like he was a weak ninja to me.
6 on 1 vs. the Strongest 6 Ninja to ever live?
I don't think so.
The six strongest. Might I remind you that all 6 were defeated at some point by Jiraiya (Except perhaps Nagato or whoever the leader was again) meaning that individually they are far from the best ninja ever to have lived


Minato can't beat The Sannin and their Squadron all at the same time when the sannin were all at their prime.
Hanzou did that.
Then Pein annihilated Hanzou.
Considering how Minato never fought the 3rd and all the Sannin together that argument is not valid as has false premises and conclusion

Pein has 6 Bodies, all of them are different people, all by one name. Pein.
Minato stands no chance against Pein.
It does not matter how fast he is, Speed will win battles against Amateurs, but against the best, you'll need more than Speed, and when it comes down to that, Jiriaya beats Minato in every category but speed. and Jiriaya was completely destroyed.Speed will not do anything for Minato.
So ur saying that despite the forth moving so fast pein could not see him let alone hit him he would still lose? Somehow I find that hard to believe as speed is a huge factor in this battle as Minato would have the speed and power to end this battle very quickly.

[Super Luigi]

i think tie

[Masterofdeath]

I think everyone needs a refresher on the fight with Pein and Jiraiya because Pein is greatly overrated.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I think everyone needs a refresher on the fight with Pein and Jiraiya because Pein is greatly overrated.

I totally agree with that statement.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I'm asking for references because there seems to be very little to back up many of your claims and would actually like evidence to prove what you say.


That is the evidence right there.
What I said, that's evidence.

So this just proves what I said which was that the Secret isn't actually necessary to kill pein as it has been proven Individuals can be taken out and not revived.


No.
The only reason that Peidara wasn't revived is because a Toad grabbed him, hauled ass and Jiriaya distracted them.

He was way faster then Sasuke could ever dream to be using his thundergod technique he could move faster then any character ever in the whole Naruto series and he was so feared all enemy no matter how many there were, were
to run the second they saw him. That doesn't sound like he was a weak ninja to me.

Never said he was weak.

The six strongest. Might I remind you that all 6 were defeated at some point by Jiraiya (Except perhaps Nagato or whoever the leader was again) meaning that individually they are far from the best ninja ever to have lived

4 of them were defeated, 3 came back, so only 1 was defeated.


Considering how Minato never fought the 3rd and all the Sannin together that argument is not valid as has false premises and conclusion


I don't see how it's not valid.
He couldn't beat them.
And of course he never fought them, seriously you are in the wrong section.

So ur saying that despite the forth moving so fast pein could not see him let alone hit him he would still lose? Somehow I find that hard to believe as speed is a huge factor in this battle as Minato would have the speed and power to end this battle very quickly.

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Sasuke is no doubt the fastest Ninja alive yet somehow lost to Itachi.
Speed does not matter if you are out matched.
Pein can use all 6 Elements and has seemingly endless summons.
Another thing, Jiriaya went all out, pulled out everything in his arsenal, Pein used what, 6 techniques?
Minato is clearly outmatched here, it does not matter how fast he is, Sasuke vs. Itachi, Lee vs. Gaara, Gai vs. Kisame, If you do not have the skill to match your speed you will fall flat on your face, Minato has fewer and less powerful skills than Jiriaya, but he's faster.
Jiriaya didn't have the skill to beat Pein, why would someone with even less beat him?

I think everyone needs a refresher on the fight with Pein and Jiraiya because Pein is greatly overrated.

No I don't think they do.
Pein is obviously overrated but that's just because Kishimoto is planning on having Naruto defeat him, so he must be overrated.
But if the story wasn't falling apart and we weren't judging on actual storyline but by ability, Pein is definitely not overrated.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

That is the evidence right there.
What I said, that's evidence.
Actually saying Tobi=Otito etc isn't evidence its a statement.

No.
The only reason that Peidara wasn't revived is because a Toad grabbed him, hauled ass and Jiriaya distracted them.
So???? This still proves that individual Peins can be killed and stay killed. Regardless of the fact that Jiraiya only killed one the fact remains that Individually they can be taken out so if all six were to be taken out then don't you think it follows that all six would stay dead and thus mean Pein is dead??

4 of them were defeated, 3 came back, so only 1 was defeated.
Regardless of the fact that they came back he still beat at least four and so it shows that they are not actually that strong individually (and even seemed like a pretty weak team) meaning Pein is not as good as he seems

I don't see how it's not valid.
He couldn't beat them.
And of course he never fought them, seriously you are in the wrong section.
The problem here is that you can't prove that Minato couldn't beat 3rd and all the Sannin (Which I most definately think Minato could do) back in the day meaning any comparison from this to what Hanzou did and thus leading to Pein is wrong on the Basis of an Invalid argument

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying.
Sasuke is no doubt the fastest Ninja alive yet somehow lost to Itachi.
Speed does not matter if you are out matched.
Two things
1/Sasuke won (Technically)
2/Sasuke is not the fastest Ninja out there. Lee+Gai and who knows there may be others out there in other vilages but basically he is fast but the fastest currently alive is highly debatable


Pein can use all 6 Elements and has seemingly endless summons.
Another thing, Jiriaya went all out, pulled out everything in his arsenal, Pein used what, 6 techniques?
Minato is clearly outmatched here, it does not matter how fast he is, Sasuke vs. Itachi, Lee vs. Gaara, Gai vs. Kisame, If you do not have the skill to match your speed you will fall flat on your face, Minato has fewer and less powerful skills than Jiriaya, but he's faster.
Jiriaya didn't have the skill to beat Pein, why would someone with even less beat him?
Less skill, Minato was the single most fared Ninja of the Nja wars this points to skill behind the speed.
Also Minatos speed was greater then any of the characters above Gai/Lee/Itachi/Sasuke all of these are horribly slow compared to Minato so there is hardly a comparison as unlike them Minato can move faster then Is possible to see no matter who you are. Travelling at light speed would mean Pein could never even hope to touch him let alone kill him as all the time he would be getting attack almost from all directions at once. no offence to Pein but this much speed is way out of his league to even have a hope of stopping

Speed may not win all matches but If your opponent can't see you let alone touch you then he can't possibly win.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Actually saying Tobi=Otito etc isn't evidence its a statement.

1. Obidara, not Obito, this entire argument you've said I've been saying he's Obito which is clearly wrong judging from the manga.

2. I've backed that up with evidence.

So???? This still proves that individual Peins can be killed and stay killed.

If you Run the hell away with it!
So Minato will kill one, run away, hide it, and repeat?


The problem here is that you can't prove that Minato couldn't beat 3rd and all the Sannin (Which I most definately think Minato could do) back in the day meaning any comparison from this to what Hanzou did and thus leading to Pein is wrong on the Basis of an Invalid argument

Okay, before you say I'm making Pein sound over rated talk a look at what you're saying.
I almost want to stop this now because of that paragraph.
I'm not even gonna bother with it.

Two things
1/Sasuke won (Technically)
2/Sasuke is not the fastest Ninja out there. Lee+Gai and who knows there may be others out there in other vilages but basically he is fast but the fastest currently alive is highly debatable

Actually no it's not, Lee's max speed is without his weights, and Gai said in Episode 65(or 66) that Sasuke has matched that speed, now, judging from the fact that he was still slightly visible and from the fact that he was completely unnoticeable by even a high level Jounin, and an Anbu says he has gotten much faster.
Gai I do not know about because we've yet to see him at top speed.
But if they are using the gates then it's not debatable they are definitely faster.

Less skill, Minato was the single most fared Ninja of the Nja wars this points to skill behind the speed.
Also Minatos speed was greater then any of the characters above Gai/Lee/Itachi/Sasuke all of these are horribly slow compared to Minato so there is hardly a comparison as unlike them Minato can move faster then Is possible to see no matter who you are. Travelling at light speed would mean Pein could never even hope to touch him let alone kill him as all the time he would be getting attack almost from all directions at once. no offence to Pein but this much speed is way out of his league to even have a hope of stopping

Again, you are making him sound like a God.
Stop that.
Fact is, we know loads more about Pein than we do about Minato.

What we know about Minato is he has 7 Techniques(Rasengan, Thundergod, Death Seal, Summoning, Clone, Transformation, and Replacement).

Jiriaya had 3 Rasengans, Many Summoning, An assortment of Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind Techniques, Hair Techniques(go figure, lol), Hermit Mode, and not to mention the two most powerful Toad Sages at his side too.

Minato travels around the speed of Sasuke, I don't care if you think, I don't care if it even said he travels at the speed of light, he doesn't. Lee(4 Gates) travels at the speed of Sound, Sasuke does not.
Minato's speed resembles Sasuke's, not Lee's. There are no sound waves, nothing.
He does not break the sound barrier therefore does not break the light.

Speed may not win all matches but If your opponent can't see you let alone touch you then he can't possibly win

Episode....50.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

1. Obidara, not Obito, this entire argument you've said I've been saying he's Obito which is clearly wrong judging from the manga.
2. I've backed that up with evidence.
All I was doing was asking for that evidence.


If you Run the hell away with it!
So Minato will kill one, run away, hide it, and repeat?
Or you could just kill them all before they can revive each other?


Actually no it's not, Lee's max speed is without his weights, and Gai said in Episode 65(or 66) that Sasuke has matched that speed, now, judging from the fact that he was still slightly visible and from the fact that he was completely unnoticeable by even a high level Jounin, and an Anbu says he has gotten much faster.
Gai I do not know about because we've yet to see him at top speed.
But if they are using the gates then it's not debatable they are definitely faster.
So basically ur now argeeing with me that Sasuke is probably (Or almost definately) not the fastest?

What we know about Minato is he has 7 Techniques(Rasengan, Thundergod, Death Seal, Summoning, Clone, Transformation, and Replacement).

Jiriaya had 3 Rasengans, Many Summoning, An assortment of Fire, Earth, Water, and Wind Techniques, Hair Techniques(go figure, lol), Hermit Mode, and not to mention the two most powerful Toad Sages at his side too.
ok with you so far....


Minato travels around the speed of Sasuke, I don't care if you think, I don't care if it even said he travels at the speed of light, he doesn't. Lee(4 Gates) travels at the speed of Sound, Sasuke does not.
Minato's speed resembles Sasuke's, not Lee's. There are no sound waves, nothing.
He does not break the sound barrier therefore does not break the light.
But just because he doesn't obviously break the sound barrier has absolutely nothing to with this.Certainly if he was to zig through the Air then yes breaking the sound barrier would be evident but he doesn't seem to travel along the intervening space. If you look at kakshi Gaiden it shows that he doesn't physically move through the air he just teleports if you will to the location.
He travels at the speed of light and not breaking the sound barrier means nothing with this technique and Thus means that he is ridiculously faster then lee/Gai/Sasuke could ever be.

Episode....50.
Yes but Pein wouldn't have a chance like that (I.e.opponent basically stopped cos he screwed himself over.)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Okay, I took your advice, and I read Kakashi Gaiden.
You know what I found out?
It's all a Hoax.
Minato isn't fast.
He doesn't travel at the speed of light.
He uses Teleportation Kunai and Body Flicker not Flying Thundergod.
He carried the Teleportation Kunai with him on missions, not in a one on one fight because they would show no use there.
And the Body Flicker...is a technique every Genin level and higher ninja has, so Konohamaru....Naruto....Kakashi....Tsunade....and yes, even Pein. Is as fast as Minato.

So now, speed is not a factor in this battle, without that Minato has absolutely no chance at all.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Ummmm Ooookkkkkkk

I still don't follow how he is not faster then any of them?

[Muffin]

Okay, I took your advice, and I read Kakashi Gaiden.
You know what I found out?
It's all a Hoax.
Minato isn't fast.
He doesn't travel at the speed of light.
He uses Teleportation Kunai and Body Flicker not Flying Thundergod.
He carried the Teleportation Kunai with him on missions, not in a one on one fight because they would show no use there.
And the Body Flicker...is a technique every Genin level and higher ninja has, so Konohamaru....Naruto....Kakashi....Tsunade....and yes, even Pein. Is as fast as Minato.

So now, speed is not a factor in this battle, without that Minato has absolutely no chance at all.

Your wrong.

The body flicker is Minato's Technique, it's his only, noone else knew it you based your theory that every genin knew it on nothing. He uses the Kunai to travel at the speed of light, he travels through them and used it to wipe out entire armies in the blink of an eye, the technique is called the flying thundergod.

And it's said Minato could move at the speed of light using his thundergod technique yet you don't care if it said that and to you he's as fast as sasuke i'm sorry but that's just stupid :confused:

WHO GETS IMMORTAL FROM PMS!!!!
lmao.
I won't argue with the theory, although I think Madara's a guy....

I meant permanent Mangekyo Sharingan :p

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Ummmm Ooookkkkkkk

I still don't follow how he is not faster then any of them?

Because every ninja has that Technique.


The body flicker is Minato's Technique, it's his only, noone else knew it you based your theory that every genin knew it on nothing. He uses the Kunai to travel at the speed of light, he travels through them and used it to wipe out entire armies in the blink of an eye, the technique is called the flying thundergod.


He did not travel through them.
He traveled TO them.
Also Every Genin knew Body Flicker, Shikamaru used it against Temari.
Bring this up with Jay, I had an extremely long argument with him on this, everyone, genin level or higher, knows the Body Flicker, if you do not believe me, start a thread, Challenge Jay and get back to me.

And it's said Minato could move at the speed of light using his thundergod technique yet you don't care if it said that and to you he's as fast as sasuke i'm sorry but that's just stupid :confused:


I'm saying that because I saw his movements, and I know that if something was traveling at the speed of sound it would make a sound wave and I also know that it is physically impossible to travel faster than the Speed of Sound and yet not at the same time.

I meant permanent Mangekyo Sharingan :p

lmao Ooooooh!!!!! lol my mistake xDDD

[Uzuki]

BI also know that it is physically impossible to travel faster than the Speed of Sound and yet not at the same time


Um...it's not impossible to travel faster than the speed of sound. We do that in reality, with planes, all the time.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Um...it's not impossible to travel faster than the speed of sound. We do that in reality, with planes, all the time.

You didn't understand me but who can blame you I barely understood me.
What I meant was...

She says he is traveling faster than the speed of light, yet he does not break the sound barrier, indicating that he does not pass the speed of sound, but the speed of light is faster than the speed of light, which means he travels faster than the speed of sound and yet doesn't as well.

[Uzuki]

You didn't understand me but who can blame you I barely understood me.
What I meant was...

She says he is traveling faster than the speed of light, yet he does not break the sound barrier, indicating that he does not pass the speed of sound, but the speed of light is faster than the speed of light, which means he travels faster than the speed of sound and yet doesn't as well.

Well, this is somewhat of a discussion of theoretical physics now.

But assuming he was traveling near the speed of light, it's entirely possible he's figured out how to transform his body from matter to energy (ala, E=mc^2) and travels at the high speeds in an energy form rather than in a matter form. Because of this, he wouldn't produce a sonic boom, and would still be traveling faster than the speed of sound.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Because every ninja has that Technique.
He did not travel through them.
He traveled TO them.
Also Every Genin knew Body Flicker, Shikamaru used it against Temari.
Bring this up with Jay, I had an extremely long argument with him on this, everyone, genin level or higher, knows the Body Flicker, if you do not believe me, start a thread, Challenge Jay and get back to me.
Yes they all know body flcker (Its one of the most basic techniques) however just because both can do it means nothing as some would be faster then others when using this technique so therefore It doesn't follow that Minato would be slower then others who know body flicker. And also combined with the Flying thundergod he would be faster then any other character ever.

Well, this is somewhat of a discussion of theoretical physics now.

But assuming he was traveling near the speed of light, it's entirely possible he's figured out how to transform his body from matter to energy (ala, E=mc^2) and travels at the high speeds in an energy form rather than in a matter form. Because of this, he wouldn't produce a sonic boom, and would still be traveling faster than the speed of sound.
Yeah what he said.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

But assuming he was traveling near the speed of light, it's entirely possible he's figured out how to transform his body from matter to energy (ala, E=mc^2) and travels at the high speeds in an energy form rather than in a matter form. Because of this, he wouldn't produce a sonic boom, and would still be traveling faster than the speed of sound.

But this is assuming his body is capable of transforming from matter to energy and then capable successfully transforming back with few or no repercussions.

Yes they all know body flcker (Its one of the most basic techniques) however just because both can do it means nothing as some would be faster then others when using this technique so therefore It doesn't follow that Minato would be slower then others who know body flicker. And also combined with the Flying thundergod he would be faster then any other character ever.

No he wouldn't. Flying Thundergod is not a technique.
It's teleportation, no jutsu or chakra is required.
You throw the Kunai, it activates, you are taken to it.
Second of all, Body Flicker is basically Move-Out-The-Way No Jutsu.
If Shikamaru can move as fast as Minato did, I don't think it's a controllable jutsu.

[Uzuki]

But this is assuming his body is capable of transforming from matter to energy and then capable successfully transforming back with few or no repercussions.

I don't think that's a huge assumption, he can teleport.

[Muffin]

But this is assuming his body is capable of transforming from matter to energy and then capable successfully transforming back with few or no repercussions.
No he wouldn't. Flying Thundergod is not a technique.
It's teleportation, no jutsu or chakra is required.
You throw the Kunai, it activates, you are taken to it.

It was never shown exactly what happens once the Jutsu started, it was shown how he starts it after they throw the kunai's he moves at the speed of light moving with them and basically killing any and everything he wants.



Second of all, Body Flicker is basically Move-Out-The-Way No Jutsu.
If Shikamaru can move as fast as Minato did, I don't think it's a controllable jutsu.

Noone besides Minato knew body flicker, Shikamaru only moved out of the way of Temari's movements it wasn't a jutsu. When Minato used it he looked at the area of where the rock nin was gave a look and was suddenly behind him before his backpack even hit the ground. He is easily faster than any and all ninja's in naruto. And if sound effect are what you want, then read manga 240 pages 8 and 9 there is "sfx: zoom" where he grabs kakashi and saves him.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

No he wouldn't. Flying Thundergod is not a technique.
It's teleportation, no jutsu or chakra is required.
You throw the Kunai, it activates, you are taken to it.
Second of all, Body Flicker is basically Move-Out-The-Way No Jutsu.
If Shikamaru can move as fast as Minato did, I don't think it's a controllable jutsu.
Flying Thundergod is a jutsu and only requires a seal (Not a kunai) which he can activate whenever he wants to teleport himself to it.

Body flicker is simply a sharp release of chakra out of the feet to give a speed boost much like a spring on the bottom of your feet and so is easily directional and controllable and of course different people are faster or slower with it etc.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

It was never shown exactly what happens once the Jutsu started, it was shown how he starts it after they throw the kunai's he moves at the speed of light moving with them and basically killing any and everything he wants.


He throws the kunai, they land he begins.
If he threw 100 Kunai and teleported to 100 kunai he would kill himself.

Noone besides Minato knew body flicker, Shikamaru only moved out of the way of Temari's movements it wasn't a jutsu. When Minato used it he looked at the area of where the rock nin was gave a look and was suddenly behind him before his backpack even hit the ground. He is easily faster than any and all ninja's in naruto. And if sound effect are what you want, then read manga 240 pages 8 and 9 there is "sfx: zoom" where he grabs kakashi and saves him.

Every one genin level or higher knew body flicker.

Flying Thundergod is a jutsu and only requires a seal (Not a kunai) which he can activate whenever he wants to teleport himself to it.


By throwing what now?

Body flicker is simply a sharp release of chakra out of the feet to give a speed boost much like a spring on the bottom of your feet and so is easily directional and controllable and of course different people are faster or slower with it etc.

No, actually they're not because if Shikamaru moves as fast with his Body Flicker as Minato did, well that's pretty much the fastest and the slowest right there being equals when using body flicker.

[HyuugaHanabi]

He throws the kunai, they land he begins. If he threw 100 Kunai and teleported to 100 kunai he would kill himself. Every one genin level or higher knew body flicker. By throwing what now? No, actually they're not because if Shikamaru moves as fast with his Body Flicker as Minato did, well that's pretty much the fastest and the slowest right there being equals when using body flicker. Wow...how do you know all this..?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Wow...how do you know all this..?

Read the manga...a few times...

[HyuugaHanabi]

Read the manga...a few times... Lol! genius

[Uzuki]

He throws the kunai, they land he begins.
If he threw 100 Kunai and teleported to 100 kunai he would kill himself

You obviously weren't paying attention to Kakashi Gaiden when he handed out about 50 Kunai with seals on them and said "You guys just throw all these at once."

[HyuugaHanabi]

You obviously weren't paying attention to Kakashi Gaiden when he handed out about 50 Kunai with seals on them and said "You guys just throw all these at once." Yeah! that makes big difference. so who's right

[Uzuki]

Further evidence...


http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000242/04-05.jpg

[shika shuffle]

yodaime

[shika shuffle]

http://[IMG]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/Indie-Princess-/z57489554

[shika shuffle]

http://[IMG]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa183/Indie-Princess-/z57489554

[Doctor Octogonapus]

^^Don't triple post and don't spam.

Also yes he did do that, I read it, but if you were to teleport to 50 places at once, you would die.

[Masterofdeath]

Who cares majin the winner would be Yodaime accept it and move on.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Who cares majin the winner would be Yodaime accept it and move on.

No he's not.
And quit being an ass about things.

Minato stands no chance, Body Flicker is a technique every genin level ninja or high knows, Pein knows Body Flicker, Minato would not have one of those Kunai on him he uses those for Missions and Wars, Pein has mastered all 6 elements, has a lot of summons, pulverized Jiriaya into submission when he went all out, can beat all three Sannin and their squadron at the same time and very easily, Minato cannot do that, Minato is Jiriaya but 30 years younger and with less techniques, there is no chance for him to win at all. Pein>Hanzou>The Strongest Konoha Squadron>Minato

Accept that and move on.

[shika shuffle]

yodaime!

[Doctor Octogonapus]

yodaime!

I'm tired of repeating myself. Just read my previous posts.

[Masterofdeath]

Your pathetic, you base all your thoughts on mere assumptions... how about you look it up. Minato was far superior to Jiraiya and he would decimate pein it is not a competiton but your to much of an ass to realize that Pein is deadly overrated and isn't very strong at all. Remember Minato>1st hokage>Madara>Pein. Minato wins face it

[Masterofdeath]

See you have no comeback I am right at all times.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Your pathetic, you base all your thoughts on mere assumptions... how about you look it up. Minato was far superior to Jiraiya and he would decimate pein it is not a competiton but your to much of an ass to realize that Pein is deadly overrated and isn't very strong at all. Remember Minato>1st hokage>Madara>Pein. Minato wins face it

I'm basing nothing here on assumptions everything I've said and gathered in this debate for the most part has been entirely from the manga. Minato was not far superior to Jiriaya, he was Superior yes, but recent events in the manga shows that that gap was very small. He would not discriminate Pein, and another thing quit pulling this bullshit insulting that you're doing it's immature and pointless, grow up and debate or don't bother starting something.
Minato beats the first Hokage, Shodamine beats Madara, but Madara is now part of someone's head that's going to be beaten by Kakashi, Kakashi is not stronger than Pein. Minato does not win.
1. You're judging on Speed alone which has already been proven that Speed 1, does not matter, and 2, Body Flicker is not speed. Lee, Sasuke, Gai, that's speed, teleportation, not speed.
2. There's nothing else to judge this on but the fact that you believe Minato is fast when actually he is no faster than Pein if that. He cannot beat Pein, he has no chance.
3. Pein destroyed Jiriaya in mere minutes, he destroyed the man that beat Jiriaya, Tsunade, Orochimaru(all in their prime) and their entire squadron. He is not overrated, nor is he weak. He is no doubt the strongest ninja alive and the second strongest to ever live, the only way to beat him is knowing his secret, the only way to figure out his secret is knowing all 6 of those people and having the same experiences with them as Jiriaya did, and only Jiriaya could figure out the secret, not Minato.
Pein wins.

See you have no comeback I am right at all times.

Pft. Arrogant. Don't bother coming up with a comeback, you're not worth the trouble.
Come back when you've matured.

[Masterofdeath]

Lol! some of your points are valid, but others are assumption. Don't you get it even it pein is too strong for Minato he still has his strongest weapon. The power of the death god. He can seal Pein away for good. And a body with no soul is an empty shell. Don't forget he doesn't have to kill himself through this as proven in the fight against Orochimaru in which the third used shadow clones to seal away the other hokages.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Lol! some of your points are valid, but others are assumption. Don't you get it even it pein is too strong for Minato he still has his strongest weapon. The power of the death god. He can seal Pein away for good. And a body with no soul is an empty shell. Don't forget he doesn't have to kill himself through this as proven in the fight against Orochimaru in which the third used shadow clones to seal away the other hokages.

I'm done with assumptions, assumptions are useless at the point this debate is in.
Everything I'm using is from the manga.

The Death God Sealing Technique? Okay, Minato and One Pein is dead, but there are 5 left.
Minato does not know the Shadow Clone technique, that is just an assumption and should be left out of the debate.

[Masterofdeath]

It is an assumption that he doesn't know the kage bushin, whic he does proven by Kakshi Gaiden

[Uzuki]

It's like you didn't even read the image I showed you.

Minato just told them to throw over 50 of those sealed Kunai at once. If throwing 50 at once would kill him, he'd be dead after that. But he wasn't dead after that. So we can safely say that he can throw 50+ of those sealed kunai at once.

And why on earth would you think that Minato wouldn't carry any sealed kunai normally? He friggin had dozens in that frame above.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

It is an assumption that he doesn't know the kage bushin, whic he does proven by Kakshi Gaiden

Show me the page.
I do not recall him using Kage Bunshin, I re-read the manga last night and today, but show me him using it, if you cannot he does not know it.


It's like you didn't even read the image I showed you.

Minato just told them to throw over 50 of those sealed Kunai at once. If throwing 50 at once would kill him, he'd be dead after that. But he wasn't dead after that. So we can safely say that he can throw 50+ of those sealed kunai at once.

And why on earth would you think that Minato wouldn't carry any sealed kunai normally? He friggin had dozens in that frame above.

Yes, probably because they were so close together, if you threw one north and threw one south, and teleported to both of them at the same time what would happen?

Yes, because he was on a mission, and in a war.
Why would you carry those if you weren't in a war?
For fun?
It's like Kakashi going far away and keeping the Kyuubi seal, what use is that with no Naruto?

[Masterofdeath]

true he hasnt been seen using it but all jounin of basic level or higher can use it except for Gai

[Doctor Octogonapus]

true he hasnt been seen using it but all jounin of basic level or higher can use it except for Gai

No, it was called a Jounin Level Technique, not All jounin Know This.

[Masterofdeath]

whateva we all have different opinions

[Doctor Octogonapus]

whateva we all have different opinions

That isn't an opinion it was said in the manga.

[Masterofdeath]

OMFG stop being an ass!!!!!! Minato would win end of subject. Ps: Stop sucking Peins dick!

[Doctor Octogonapus]

OMFG stop being an ass!!!!!! Minato would win end of subject. Ps: Stop sucking Peins dick!

Go.

[madara_uchiha_unlimited]

YONDAIME WINS!!!!!!!
but tobi/madara beats all

[Doctor Octogonapus]

YONDAIME WINS!!!!!!!
but tobi/madara beats all

1. Minato does not win.
2. Tobi is as strong as Kakashi
3. Madara is the right side of Tobi's head, he can't beat s**t

[madara_uchiha_unlimited]

well im talking about old madara
i know i just put tobi
but idc

[Doctor Octogonapus]

well im talking about old madara
i know i just put tobi
but idc

1. Old Madara? You mean old as in when he was young?
2. No you put Tobi/Madara
3. Noted.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Lets Clarify the Flying thundergod

He throws the kunai, they land he begins.
If he threw 100 Kunai and teleported to 100 kunai he would kill himself.
No, Minato can teleport to the seals instantaneously at will whenever he wants and is obviously able to control which seal he goes to at each time but it is conceivable he could travel between all seals in almost an instant.


By throwing what now?
I would like to clarify this one
Minato does not need to throw special kunai to use Flying thundergod
If you don't believe me look at kakashi gaiden when he fights the other ninja and places a paper seal on his foot. as long as their is a seal he can use his technique

No, actually they're not because if Shikamaru moves as fast with his Body Flicker as Minato did, well that's pretty much the fastest and the slowest right there being equals when using body flicker.
Differing speeds are still there even with the body flicker as it doesn't magically make everyone the same speed.

Thus the Flying thundergod combined with body flicker and the natural speed of Yondaime means that his advantage is huge. People are unable to even track his movements let alone attack him and it is for this reason that supernatural speed would crush pein as no matter how fast he reacts, by the time he has finally figured where he is, Minato would already be long gone to anouther seal and attacking again

Speed doesn't win on its own but this sort of speed is too much for any ninja to even dream of competing against and so I say Yondaime wins.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I would like to clarify this one
Minato does not need to throw special kunai to use Flying thundergod
If you don't believe me look at kakashi gaiden when he fights the other ninja and places a paper seal on his foot. as long as their is a seal he can use his technique

He does not place a seal on HIS foot, he places one on his opponents foot.

Differing speeds are still there even with the body flicker as it doesn't magically make everyone the same speed.


Well Sasuke must be the fastest ninja ever then, he's matched Minato's Body Flicker Speed with his own speed.

Speed doesn't win on its own but this sort of speed is too much for any ninja to even dream of competing against and so I say Yondaime wins.

Goku vs. Cell.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

He does not place a seal on HIS foot, he places one on his opponents foot.
Ok sorry bout the typo

Well Sasuke must be the fastest ninja ever then, he's matched Minato's Body Flicker Speed with his own speed.
When did he match his speed?????

Goku vs. Cell.
Ur gonna have to explain this one as my DBZ is a little rusty.

[vane]

I wont comment cause seeing as Minato is my fave character I would only try to look for ways for Minato to win. Not saying he wouldnt win. But they are both really strong. It would be a really good match.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Ok sorry bout the typo

Oh, my bad then sorry :o

When did he match his speed?????

Shippuden 1, you said that Minato's speed was untraceable, Sasuke's was untraceable.

Ur gonna have to explain this one as my DBZ is a little rusty.

Goku could, and did move faster than the speed of light when fighting Cell, yet he still lost.

[vane]

^^ I wouldnt say untracable to everybody. I think the sharingan can see it. But since Minato was telepoting the sharingan cant follow him. It could only help determine where he might go ( maybe). Which in turn I beleive Minato is faster.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

^^Yes but Sasuke also used a Teleportation Jutsu against Deidara.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Shippuden 1, you said that Minato's speed was untraceable, Sasuke's was untraceable.
Not the same as his movements could be traced by stuff like the sharingan


Goku could, and did move faster than the speed of light when fighting Cell, yet he still lost.
Yeah but hismeans nothing in this argument as cell could move just as fast so it didn't matter and If instead you are referring to instant transmission you need to remember that it was actually slow to use.

^^ I wouldnt say untracable to everybody. I think the sharingan can see it. But since Minato was telepoting the sharingan cant follow him. It could only help determine where he might go ( maybe). Which in turn I beleive Minato is faster.
Exactly what I meant thanks for helping clear that up

when I said untracable I literally meant untraceable by anything even things like sharingan which allows movement to be tracked.

[vane]

^^Yes but Sasuke also used a Teleportation Jutsu against Deidara.

When did he use that. Im going to go back through and check. Not saying your wrong but I dont remember.

If you were talking about in the begining of the fight when Tobi said his shunshin jutsu is too fast he wasnt saying he could teleport. Deidara could see him and evade him where as Minato couldnt be seen coming. I admit Sasuke is fast but nobody even comes close except for gated Gai, and still Minato is faster.

[Muffin]

He throws the kunai, they land he begins.
If he threw 100 Kunai and teleported to 100 kunai he would kill himself.
The flying thundergod has never been shown, it was said that he moves at the speed of light, i don't understand why your arguing about a technique that he was confirmed in using.



Every one genin level or higher knew body flicker.
Noone knew body flicker besides Minato. Your basing every genin knowing it on nothing.


No, actually they're not because if Shikamaru moves as fast with his Body Flicker as Minato did, well that's pretty much the fastest and the slowest right there being equals when using body flicker.

Shikamaru did not move as fast as him, he was just standing once the dust cleared. Minato was easily faster than any character in Naruto ever shown.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

The flying thundergod has never been shown, it was said that he moves at the speed of light, i don't understand why your arguing about a technique that he was confirmed in using.
Flying thundergod was shown briefly in the Kakashi Gaiden Manga

Noone knew body flicker besides Minato. Your basing every genin knowing it on nothing.
Actually body flicker is a basic technique which simply gives a speed boost (You see alot of ninjas do it when they disappear really quick)

[Muffin]

Flying thundergod was shown briefly in the Kakashi Gaiden Manga

It was shown in the preparation, he got ready to do it but never shown what happens after the Kunai's are thrown.


Actually body flicker is a basic technique which simply gives a speed boost (You see alot of ninjas do it when they disappear really quick)

Just because they disappear does not mean they used a super powerful technique that Minato developed.
http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000240/09.jpg
http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000240/10.jpg
That is the only time we've ever seen the body flicker.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

That is the only time we've ever seen the body flicker.
I stand corrected. Thanx for that

[Doctor Octogonapus]

That is the only time we've ever seen the body flicker.

Wrong, that was Flying Thundergod, if You'll notice in the previous page he put a seal on the man's foot, the same seal from the kunai, indicating that was in fact Flying Thundergod, and not the Bodyflicker. Just because it was called that doesn't mean it was.
You can call the Sky Green but that doesn't change what it actually is.

Second of all, Body Flicker was used in Episode 63 Shikamaru vs. Temari right at the beginning of the fight.

[Muffin]

Wrong, that was Flying Thundergod, if You'll notice in the previous page he put a seal on the man's foot, the same seal from the kunai, indicating that was in fact Flying Thundergod, and not the Bodyflicker. Just because it was called that doesn't mean it was.
You can call the Sky Green but that doesn't change what it actually is.

Second of all, Body Flicker was used in Episode 63 Shikamaru vs. Temari right at the beginning of the fight.

He put no seal on the guys foot..

Those are his toes, you can see in the pages previous to it that he wears sandals that don't cover his toes.

And i know you can read so you must've missed the panel where Rin exclaims "Sensei's Shunshin No Jutsu (Body Flicker)"

Shikamaru didn't use the body flicker he was just dodging Temari's attack..

[HyuugaHanabi]

He put no seal on the guys foot..Those are his toes, you can see in the pages previous to it that he wears sandals that don't cover his toes.And i know you can read so you must've missed the panel where Rin exclaims "Sensei's Shunshin No Jutsu (Body Flicker)"Shikamaru didn't use the body flicker he was just dodging Temari's attack.. this thread isnt about shikamaru or temari...i dont get it...

[Uzuki]

this thread isnt about shikamaru or temari...i dont get it...


Matt has been claiming that Yondaime can't beat Pein because he only uses Genin level techniques like Shikamaru used against Temari.

[HyuugaHanabi]

Matt has been claiming that Yondaime can't beat Pein because he only uses Genin level techniques like Shikamaru used against Temari. Yondaime is better than that, using genin leveled techniques...and why put up such an argument..nobody really knows and if one day it ever showed who would win, then you would know you were finally right. thats it..

[vane]

He put no seal on the guys foot..

Those are his toes, you can see in the pages previous to it that he wears sandals that don't cover his toes.

And i know you can read so you must've missed the panel where Rin exclaims "Sensei's Shunshin No Jutsu (Body Flicker)"

Shikamaru didn't use the body flicker he was just dodging Temari's attack..

You didnt notice the marker on the guy's foot. It was when he grabbed Kakashi from that guy, he put it on the enemies foot. Or perhaps you missed that. I'm not agreeing with Majinsharingan that Minato would lose but I agree that, that wasnt body flicker that in fact it was Hiraishin no jutsu(flying thunder god). It must be a typo cause they wouldnt have shown the marker on the guys foot if it was body flicker. Oh and actually I think it was the translators mistake to say that.

[Hunter-nin]

You didnt notice the marker on the guy's foot. It was when he grabbed Kakashi from that guy, he put it on the enemies foot. Or perhaps you missed that. I'm not agreeing with Majinsharingan that Minato would lose but I agree that, that wasnt body flicker that in fact it was Hiraishin no jutsu(flying thunder god). It must be a typo cause they wouldnt have shown the marker on the guys foot if it was body flicker. Oh and actually I think it was the translators mistake to say that.

:haku: When Yondaime grabbed Kakashi and flew backwards - that was the "Body flicker" Rin was talking about. While using the Body flicker to save Kakashi, he also stuck that seal on the guys foot so he could then use the Flying Thunder God jutsu afterwards.

[vane]

:haku: When Yondaime grabbed Kakashi and flew backwards - that was the "Body flicker" Rin was talking about. While using the Body flicker to save Kakashi, he also stuck that seal on the guys foot so he could then use the Flying Thunder God jutsu afterwards.

Actually that to was flying thunder god. He used the kunai that had a marker on it that he gave to kakashi earlier. Then at the same time put another marker on the other guys foot.

[HyuugaHanabi]

Actually that to was flying thunder god. He used the kunai that had a marker on it that he gave to kakashi earlier. Then at the same time put another marker on the other guys foot. Wow, when was that? i didnt notice it..

[Doctor Octogonapus]

He put no seal on the guys foot..

http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000240/08.jpg

You wanna try that again?

Those are his toes, you can see in the pages previous to it that he wears sandals that don't cover his toes.

http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000240/09.jpg

Funny, how toes have writing on them/

And i know you can read so you must've missed the panel where Rin exclaims "Sensei's Shunshin No Jutsu (Body Flicker)"

Nullified.
That was flying thundergod.

Shikamaru didn't use the body flicker he was just dodging Temari's attack..

No, that was body flicker.

Matt has been claiming that Yondaime can't beat Pein because he only uses Genin level techniques like Shikamaru used against Temari.

You've been in the debate from the start and you still don't know my argument.

I'm saying Minato cannot beat Pein because Pein obliterated the man who defeated the Strongest Squadron in Konoha containing all 3 Sannin in their prime which Minato cannot do.
Secondly, You have to know his secret to kill them, why the hell would Jiriaya of sent it to Konoha if it didn't mean anything?
Thirdly, Rasengan, Flying Thundergod, Summoning, Death Sealing.
Four out of his 8 Jutsu are Jounin Level+
The other 4 are Genin Level.

:haku: When Yondaime grabbed Kakashi and flew backwards - that was the "Body flicker" Rin was talking about. While using the Body flicker to save Kakashi, he also stuck that seal on the guys foot so he could then use the Flying Thunder God jutsu afterwards.

No it wasn't. Rin said that after He used Flying Thundergod.
A good two pages after using Body flicker.

http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000240/10.jpg

[BK-nin]

why does this thread exist? is it because they look the same? we don't know anything about these guys so we have no clue who'd win.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I'm saying Minato cannot beat Pein because Pein obliterated the man who defeated the Strongest Squadron in Konoha containing all 3 Sannin in their prime which Minato cannot do.
I have to completely disagree with this statement as I reckon Would would easily have been able to beat their squad like the other guy did and so is more then equal to Pein

Secondly, You have to know his secret to kill them, why the hell would Jiriaya of sent it to Konoha if it didn't mean anything?
As I said before the secret isn't he only way to kill Pein but it is the best way. The secret is what makes it easier for others to counter what Pein does/predict his moves/more easily take out his bodies etc but this does not mean that this is the only way to bring him down and as Jiraiya showed they can be taken down as indiviuals and kept down so therefore Minato could win even without the secret.
Jiraiya sent it to Konoha because it is the best way of getting rid of Pein and he wanted them to have all the help they could get.
Thirdly, Rasengan, Flying Thundergod, Summoning, Death Sealing.
Four out of his 8 Jutsu are Jounin Level+
The other 4 are Genin Level.
Does it actually matter whether he uses Jounin level or Genin level techniques alot? Remember Quality over quantity and so a mix of skill properly used like minato would be very effective.

[Muffin]

You wanna try that again?

Yes i see what your talking about now. The markings on his foot.



Nullified.
That was flying thundergod.
Rin Said "Shunshin No Jutsu" not flying thundergod. If that was the flying thundergod Rin would've said so. What're you saying that the body flicker doesn't exist or something?



No, that was body flicker.
No it wasn't. Almost everyone's dodged an attack that doesn't mean they're using Hokage level jutsu.


I'm saying Minato cannot beat Pein because Pein obliterated the man who defeated the Strongest Squadron in Konoha containing all 3 Sannin in their prime which Minato cannot do.
Secondly, You have to know his secret to kill them, why the hell would Jiriaya of sent it to Konoha if it didn't mean anything?
Thirdly, Rasengan, Flying Thundergod, Summoning, Death Sealing.
Four out of his 8 Jutsu are Jounin Level+
The other 4 are Genin Level.

To be honest i think Pein would defeat Minato, but there are a few factors involved that could result in Minato winning such as the Death seal and flying thundergod that could sway the odds to Minato's favour.

And wtf are you making up levels for his Jutsu? If they were are Jounin level jutsu then more people would learn them, out of all the moves the 4th created, only 4 other people learnt any of them. His techniques he created weren't easily put into levels.

[vane]

^^ Yes she said body flicker but in fact it was the flying thunder god. I believe it was a mistake. But either way they wouldnt have shown the marker on his foot right before getting behind him if it was body flicker, cause what does the marker have to do with body flicker. Nothing. That is proof that it was flying thunder god.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I have to completely disagree with this statement as I reckon Would would easily have been able to beat their squad like the other guy did and so is more then equal to Pein


No comment, you're completely overestimating someone who you know nothing about.

Rin Said "Shunshin No Jutsu" not flying thundergod. If that was the flying thundergod Rin would've said so. What're you saying that the body flicker doesn't exist or something?

No, I'm saying that was Flying Thundergod, idc what the manga says, the manga could say the Sky is Red but look up and you can see it's blue.
Kishimoto has made so many mistakes in this manga almost every point has a counter to it and pretty soon the Battle dome would have to be closed because
Sasuke>Itachi
Naruto>Sasuke
Itachi>Naruto
Kakashi>Naruto
Itachi>Kakashi

It goes around in a circle, everything. He's screwed everything up.
But that seal, initiated flying thundergod That technique, was Thundergod.


No it wasn't. Almost everyone's dodged an attack that doesn't mean they're using Hokage level jutsu.

GENIN. It's a genin Level technique.

To be honest i think Pein would defeat Minato, but there are a few factors involved that could result in Minato winning such as the Death seal and flying thundergod that could sway the odds to Minato's favour.

Death Seal? Again, pointless.
He can't use Shadow Clones so he can't use Death Seal more than once.

And wtf are you making up levels for his Jutsu? If they were are Jounin level jutsu then more people would learn them, out of all the moves the 4th created, only 4 other people learnt any of them. His techniques he created weren't easily put into levels.

I said Jounin level and HIGHER. Rasengan= S-Level which is Jounin.
Summoning is B to A Level which is High Chuunin and Jounin
Flying Thundergod has no level, it's not a technique.
Body Flicker is D Level - Genin.

[Masterofdeath]

You are failing to realise that we don't know what Minato can do in terms of jutsu. Like the first and second hokage we have no clue what the extent of their powers are. And why do you claim he can't use shadow clone jutsu. This is simply foolish. He is the 4th hokage, I am pretty sure he can use a shadow clone jutsu.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

You are failing to realise that we don't know what Minato can do in terms of jutsu. Like the first and second hokage we have no clue what the extent of their powers are. And why do you claim he can't use shadow clone jutsu. This is simply foolish. He is the 4th hokage, I am pretty sure he can use a shadow clone jutsu.

No he can't.
The 3 Genin Jutsu
Body Flicker.
Flying Thundergod.
Rasengan.
Death Seal.
Summoning.

Only jutsu we know he can use and it hasn't been said he knew more like with Kakashi and Sarutobi.
Since we do not know, we should leave those things out of the debate as they are unimportant.

[Masterofdeath]

Okay well then stop saying he can't cuz you don't know.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Okay well then stop saying he can't cuz you don't know.

It wasn't said he can.
Which means he CAN'T.

[Masterofdeath]

No, it means no one knows. We didn't know that Kakashi could use the rasengan, that doesn't mean he can't.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, it means no one knows. We didn't know that Kakashi could use the rasengan, that doesn't mean he can't.

No one knows so we assume he doesn't.
Mistakes are made when we assume something is what it isn't.
We assumed Iraw had Weapons of Mass Destruction. They don't, we're fucked, they're fucked.
Obviously not the same situation but nevertheless, It was never said he knew Shadow Clone Jutsu, so therefore he doesn't.

[HyuugaHanabi]

No one knows so we assume he doesn't. Mistakes are made when we assume something is what it isn't. We assumed Iraw had Weapons of Mass Destruction. They don't, we're fucked, they're fucked. Obviously not the same situation but nevertheless, It was never said he knew Shadow Clone Jutsu, so therefore he doesn't. He had to...who doesnt know shadow clone jutsu...?

[Masterofdeath]

Again that is a foolish assumption. When going into battle you never assume someone doesn't know a jutsu because he can lead to defeat, or a great loss. Such as the fight between Orochimaru and the third. Orochimaru was caught of guard assuming he didn't know a jutsu, but ended losing the use of his arms which nearly lead to his death later on.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Again that is a foolish assumption. When going into battle you never assume someone doesn't know a jutsu because he can lead to defeat, or a great loss. Such as the fight between Orochimaru and the third. Orochimaru was caught of guard assuming he didn't know a jutsu, but ended losing the use of his arms which nearly lead to his death later on.

Yes but that's different, that was shown, that had a chance.
You can't compare characters shown to characters never shown.
Sakura's Mom could know Chidori, but she's never been shown so we assume she doesn't. And that thing you said only works if you are fighting, I'm not fighting Minato.

[jirayassecret]

6 on 1 vs. the Strongest 6 Ninja to ever live?
I don't think so.
Minato can't beat The Sannin and their Squadron all at the same time when the sannin were all at their prime.
Hanzou did that.
Then Pein annihilated Hanzou.[/QUOTE]


If Minato had Shikamarus smarts while in battle, then I would say Minato could figure a way to win. How smart was Minato. Probly pretty smart considering the techniques he actually created and didnt just copy or learn. Flying thundergod would give Minato plenty of time to think without using much chakra to move around into cover. In the Manga the smarter fighter always wins.

And when Hanzou beat the Sannin, I seriously doubt they were at their prime. Ninjas seem to be better with age minus stamina. So your never really at your prime as a ninja. Just close to it until you retire.

[Masterofdeath]

Again you don't assume he doesn't know, you merely make it a possibility. By making the assumption he doesn't know shadow clone jutsu very easily could mean i could assume that the sage of six paths is alive. You leave nothing to assumption, but possibility. That is like me assuming tobi is either Madara's brother, Madara, or Obito. It is simply left at being a possiblity not assumed that it is right or wrong.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

If Minato had Shikamarus smarts while in battle, then I would say Minato could figure a way to win. How smart was Minato. Probly pretty smart considering the techniques he actually created and didnt just copy or learn. Flying thundergod would give Minato plenty of time to think without using much chakra to move around into cover. In the Manga the smarter fighter always wins.

Wrong.
In the Manga, the Strongest Fighter Win. Shikamaru is a Strategist, the second strongest Strategist at that, behind his father. Only those two people think like they do. Temari, a fellow Strategist, got out THOUGHT by Shikamaru he thought so far ahead.
Minato is not a strategist.

And when Hanzou beat the Sannin, I seriously doubt they were at their prime. Ninjas seem to be better with age minus stamina. So your never really at your prime as a ninja. Just close to it until you retire.

No, Ninja gain more powerful jutsu with age, but Sarutobi in his prime would've kicked Orochimaru's ass so hard it would be coming out his head.


Jiriaya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade were still a team then, Orochimaru left Akatsuki after Itachi joined. Itachi was 15 when he joined, Orochimaru would be 53 now, and he was partnered with Sasori for years I believe it said, so let's assume it was 2 or 3 years, and give a year after leaving Konoha and maybe 2 or 3 after that fight so he was between the ages 28 and 35 when he fought Hanzou which is exactly his prime.

[Masterofdeath]

Well with shadow clone jutsu and Death God Sealing Minato beats Pein's ass

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Again you don't assume he doesn't know, you merely make it a possibility. By making the assumption he doesn't know shadow clone jutsu very easily could mean i could assume that the sage of six paths is alive. You leave nothing to assumption, but possibility. That is like me assuming tobi is either Madara's brother, Madara, or Obito. It is simply left at being a possiblity not assumed that it is right or wrong.


I'm assuming he doesn't know, true.
But.

Episode 1, Death God Seal and Summoning Jutsu shown.
Gaiden, Flying Thundergod and Body Flicker shown.
Rasengan Arc, Rasengan revealed as the 4th's Technique.
Episode 1, Replacement, Transformation and Clone Jutsu called the 3 Most Basic Techniques.

They have shown every single one of the jutsu I have named.
Wether you call it an assumption or not in this debate he does not know it because it was never said, nor shown, therefore we can't say he does.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Well with shadow clone jutsu and Death God Sealing Minato beats Pein's ass

For the third time, Death God Sealing kills one Pein and One Minato, this would work is Minato had 6 bodies, but he has one.

[Masterofdeath]

Like i said if and when he used shadow clone jutsu then pein is dead

[Masterofdeath]

Please add to my reputation.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

^^Actually no.
He's not dead.
He can't be killed.
To use that technique you have to reach into their soul, and you have to grab their stomach, Fatass Pein can't be touched, he'll absorb Minato, and when the other 5 die, he can either be the last one standing or revive them and still win.

[Masterofdeath]

wateva

[jirayassecret]

Wrong.
In the Manga, the Strongest Fighter Win. Shikamaru is a Strategist, the second strongest Strategist at that, behind his father. Only those two people think like they do. Temari, a fellow Strategist, got out THOUGHT by Shikamaru he thought so far ahead.
Minato is not a strategist.



No, Ninja gain more powerful jutsu with age, but Sarutobi in his prime would've kicked Orochimaru's ass so hard it would be coming out his head.


Jiriaya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade were still a team then, Orochimaru left Akatsuki after Itachi joined. Itachi was 15 when he joined, Orochimaru would be 53 now, and he was partnered with Sasori for years I believe it said, so let's assume it was 2 or 3 years, and give a year after leaving Konoha and maybe 2 or 3 after that fight so he was between the ages 28 and 35 when he fought Hanzou which is exactly his prime.

Ok. in reality you just agreed with me on the ninja and age thing. I just dont think jiraya, orichimaru and tsunade were as skilled back then, however, when you get old. your a better teacher of jutsu than user. you get tired.

Why do you think Minato was not a strategist. I posed it as a question because we know little about Minatos character in general. I would'nt mind seeing a kishi series titled konoha: the early years.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Ok. in reality you just agreed with me on the ninja and age thing. I just dont think jiraya, orichimaru and tsunade were as skilled back then, however, when you get old. your a better teacher of jutsu than user. you get tired.

Exactly, you get wiser, 2 of them got wiser and Orochimaru got Richard Simmonsier.

But they were at their strongest, fastest, and overall best in their prime, Prime doesn't mean just Jutsu wise, it means overall, but I get what you mean their jutsu now is stronger than before.

Why do you think Minato was not a strategist. I posed it as a question because we know little about Minatos character in general. I would'nt mind seeing a kishi series titled konoha: the early years.

^^I second the thing about the Spin-Off, that could be better than this one, but the thing about Spin-Off's is they only work if it's in the future or far past. We know the fate of everyone from back then, so it shows no surprise and suspense....

I get what you mean by that I didn't expect you to get what I meant.
1. Jiriaya referred to Naruto as Just like his father.
2. Minato was the same as Jiriaya.
3. Jiriaya said himself, if he trains Natural Talent it's no fun, meaning Minato was just like Naruto when Jiriaya trained him.
4. He was one of the most feared ninja ever, you don't need to think of a strategy, just walk into a battlefield and they run like hell.
5. There is no five.

[vane]

^^Actually no.
He's not dead.
He can't be killed.
To use that technique you have to reach into their soul, and you have to grab their stomach, Fatass Pein can't be touched, he'll absorb Minato, and when the other 5 die, he can either be the last one standing or revive them and still win.

What do you mean he'll absorb Minato. Do you mean literally or just the tech. And I like your reasoning on the shadow clone jutsu but every ninja knows it. You have to learn it when in ninja academy.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

What do you mean he'll absorb Minato. Do you mean literally or just the tech. And I like your reasoning on the shadow clone jutsu but every ninja knows it. You have to learn it when in ninja academy.

No, that's Clone, Shadow Clone is a Jounin Level Technique found in the Secret Scroll that Naruto Stole in Episode 1, Naruto couldn't use Clone jutsu but he passed by using Shadow Clone and beating Mizuki(literally and figuratively)

[vane]

No, that's Clone, Shadow Clone is a Jounin Level Technique found in the Secret Scroll that Naruto Stole in Episode 1, Naruto couldn't use Clone jutsu but he passed by using Shadow Clone and beating Mizuki(literally and figuratively)

I think your talking about taju kage bunshin no jutsu where you make a bunch of clones. Cause even Sakura uses shadow clone when she is a genin. Not saying a genin cant learn it but to many genins know it. But only one genin can do taju kage buchin no jutsu. But yea your right about the academy thing I forgot about the first episodes.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I think your talking about taju kage bunshin no jutsu where you make a bunch of clones. Cause even Sakura uses shadow clone when she is a genin. Not saying a genin cant learn it but to many genins know it. But only one genin can do taju kage buchin no jutsu. But yea your right about the academy thing I forgot about the first episodes.

No, those could very well be regular clones, Akamaru uses Transformation jutsu, Sakura idk about but Pre-Skip probably doesn't have enough chakra for a regular shadow clone.
Naruto is the only person I've seen use a shadow clone that wasn't an enemy or a Jounin.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

The clone jutsu used by Sakura and the others is not shadow clone. Their ones involve creating an illusionary clone which serves as a distraction (As it has no solid form) while the Shadow clone creates a solid replica which can then be used to actually physically attack. So I think Majin is right about the clones.

With the Death God the only hitch I can really see is whether or not Pein is one entity or Six. Now I don't mean the bodies but since they all seem to share the same mind could it be possible that they are for all intents and purposes one and so linked that It would be possible to remove the soul of Pein as a whole (As in all six a once) by using death god on one only as they all share the same mind/soul?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

With the Death God the only hitch I can really see is whether or not Pein is one entity or Six. Now I don't mean the bodies but since they all seem to share the same mind could it be possible that they are for all intents and purposes one and so linked that It would be possible to remove the soul of Pein as a whole (As in all six a once) by using death god on one only as they all share the same mind/soul?

I would say that's his secret but Naruto's meant to kill him, he doesn't know the Death God Technique.

But I don't think so, Mind and Soul are two different things.
Mind is just your mind, your brain, the think tank, the noggin, The Big Cheese, I got a million of me stop me whenever.

Your Soul is all you are Spiritually.
Like Your Body is all you are Physically.

But who knows.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I would say that's his secret but Naruto's meant to kill him, he doesn't know the Death God Technique
Yeah cos this would explain how pein can keep reviving the bodies as their part of the soul would just retreat to anouther body then get put back in l8r (Which would also explain why pein needs to touch the bodies to bring them back)

But I don't think so, Mind and Soul are two different things.
Mind is just your mind, your brain, the think tank, the noggin, The Big Cheese, I got a million of me stop me whenever.
Don't let me stop ya lol;) ;)

[bseth]

umm could u please tell me where pein recieves oders from tobi

[Muffin]

No, I'm saying that was Flying Thundergod, idc what the manga says, the manga could say the Sky is Red but look up and you can see it's blue.
Kishimoto has made so many mistakes in this manga almost every point has a counter to it and pretty soon the Battle dome would have to be closed because
Sasuke>Itachi
Naruto>Sasuke
Itachi>Naruto
Kakashi>Naruto
Itachi>Kakashi

It goes around in a circle, everything. He's screwed everything up.
But that seal, initiated flying thundergod That technique, was Thundergod.

Well could always mark that up to a rock, paper, scissors syndrome, no character is perfect and has a weakness. But Rin called it the Body flicker, which makes it canon. Kishi can change and modify his story until it makes no sense at all but you cannot just disregard anything you don't agree with.


GENIN. It's a genin Level technique.
It was a technique created by a soon to be Hokage, the only techniques he ever taught anyone were Rasengan and Death seal, he took the rest of his techniques to the grave.


I said Jounin level and HIGHER. Rasengan= S-Level which is Jounin.
Summoning is B to A Level which is High Chuunin and Jounin
Flying Thundergod has no level, it's not a technique.
Body Flicker is D Level - Genin.

So now your saying the thundergod isn't a technique and Body Flicker is, your contradicting yourself. His techniques were never given levels. Levels don't even matter, Naruto is a Gennin and still beat S rank missing nins, so levels don't mean anything.

Jiriaya, Orochimaru, and Tsunade were still a team then, Orochimaru left Akatsuki after Itachi joined. Itachi was 15 when he joined, Orochimaru would be 53 now, and he was partnered with Sasori for years I believe it said, so let's assume it was 2 or 3 years, and give a year after leaving Konoha and maybe 2 or 3 after that fight so he was between the ages 28 and 35 when he fought Hanzou which is exactly his prime.

While thats true, it would be before, Jiraiya went on his travels and became the badass mofo we all know and love. It would also be before Orochimaru was such a creepy bastard and learnt his weird and odd jutsu. They became much stronger after leaving Konoha, so they would be in their prime as they are now seeing as how they're much stronger and wiser to their 28-35 year old counterparts.


I get what you mean by that I didn't expect you to get what I meant.
1. Jiriaya referred to Naruto as Just like his father.
2. Minato was the same as Jiriaya.
3. Jiriaya said himself, if he trains Natural Talent it's no fun, meaning Minato was just like Naruto when Jiriaya trained him.
4. He was one of the most feared ninja ever, you don't need to think of a strategy, just walk into a battlefield and they run like hell.
5. There is no five.

1. I think he meant Naruto and Minato were just the kind who were always carefree and eager to learn.
2. When did it ever say Minato was ever the same as Jiraiya?
3. Well when do you think he learnt that Natural talent was no fun? He could've learnt that when Minato started developing amazing skills and abilities he used.
4. Well he was called a genius (but who hasn't been called that?) and he was basically the Leaf's weapon against large armies.
5. Poor five got left out.

With the Death God the only hitch I can really see is whether or not Pein is one entity or Six. Now I don't mean the bodies but since they all seem to share the same mind could it be possible that they are for all intents and purposes one and so linked that It would be possible to remove the soul of Pein as a whole (As in all six a once) by using death god on one only as they all share the same mind/soul?

That would be one of the few instances where i think Minato could win, otherwise i think Pein would defeat Minato.

[vane]

No, those could very well be regular clones, Akamaru uses Transformation jutsu, Sakura idk about but Pre-Skip probably doesn't have enough chakra for a regular shadow clone.
Naruto is the only person I've seen use a shadow clone that wasn't an enemy or a Jounin.

Yea Sakura used it during the chuunin exams I believe. I'll go back through and check. But every genin knows it cause I remember kakashi explaining shadow clone to Naruto saying Sasuke and Sakura could do it using less chakra somewhere early in the first series.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Yeah cos this would explain how pein can keep reviving the bodies as their part of the soul would just retreat to anouther body then get put back in l8r (Which would also explain why pein needs to touch the bodies to bring them back)


Hm...That's a very very good theory and actually should be correct, but I doubt it is unless Naruto knows the Death Seal Jutsu.

Don't let me stop ya lol;) ;)

lol...i forget em...T_T

Well could always mark that up to a rock, paper, scissors syndrome, no character is perfect and has a weakness. But Rin called it the Body flicker, which makes it canon. Kishi can change and modify his story until it makes no sense at all but you cannot just disregard anything you don't agree with.

That's true I can'. But unfortunately for you that was Flying Thudnergod. You saw the seal, FLYING THUNDERGOD.
He disappeared, BODY FLICKER.
And appeared behind the seal, THUNDERGOD.
But Rin didn't catch Minato placing the seal on that guy's foot, so she just assumed it was Body Flicker.

It was a technique created by a soon to be Hokage, the only techniques he ever taught anyone were Rasengan and Death seal, he took the rest of his techniques to the grave.

Body Flicker he didn't.
And Flying Thundergod isn't a Technique.
It's a Targeted Body Flicker, you place the seal and use Body Flicker towards it. He didn't take anything to the grave.


So now your saying the thundergod isn't a technique and Body Flicker is, your contradicting yourself. His techniques were never given levels. Levels don't even matter, Naruto is a Gennin and still beat S rank missing nins, so levels don't mean anything.

I fail to see how I mentioned that levels matter and i fail to see how I contradicted myself.


While thats true, it would be before, Jiraiya went on his travels and became the badass mofo we all know and love. It would also be before Orochimaru was such a creepy bastard and learnt his weird and odd jutsu. They became much stronger after leaving Konoha, so they would be in their prime as they are now seeing as how they're much stronger and wiser to their 28-35 year old counterparts.

Obviously not, how many of them are dead?
But anyway, no they aren't stronger.
Orochimaru had 3 Years to Live if he didn't get a new body.

They were all at their best then.

You aren't completely better at everything than a 30 year old when you're 50.


1. I think he meant Naruto and Minato were just the kind who were always carefree and eager to learn.
2. When did it ever say Minato was ever the same as Jiraiya?
3. Well when do you think he learnt that Natural talent was no fun? He could've learnt that when Minato started developing amazing skills and abilities he used.
4. Well he was called a genius (but who hasn't been called that?) and he was basically the Leaf's weapon against large armies.
5. Poor five got left out.

1. No, he meant just like his father, not a little bit like, no just, exactly like. I don't need to explain further, you've seen Naruto.
2. Nvm I was thinking when Jiriaya said he was like a son to him but they are quite similar.
3. Or....he could've used common sense? You train the best, what's there left to teach?
4. I know
5. T_T you hurt 5's feelings.

That would be one of the few instances where i think Minato could win, otherwise i think Pein would defeat Minato.

...
Wow every single debate Muffin. lol. We are debating in every thread...and we're always on the same side xD.

Yea Sakura used it during the chuunin exams I believe. I'll go back through and check. But every genin knows it cause I remember kakashi explaining shadow clone to Naruto saying Sasuke and Sakura could do it using less chakra somewhere early in the first series.

No Not every Genin knows the Shadow Clone, Every Genin can use Body Flicker and CLONE. Not Shadow Clone. Iruka said that's a Jounin Level Technique.

[Kaden]

only reason naruto can use the shadow clone is because of kyubi

[vane]

I do believe flying thunder god was a tech. It was called hiraishin no jutsu. It is basically a teleporting tech. He used the markers cause he moved so fast he could only actually see the markers. So they guided him as he moved. Body flicker isnt any part of flying thunder god.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I do believe flying thunder god was a tech. It was called hiraishin no jutsu. It is basically a teleporting tech. He used the markers cause he moved so fast he could only actually see the markers. So they guided him as he moved. Body flicker isnt any part of flying thunder god.

1. Awesome Avatar xDDD I'll have a cup of "Shut the f**k up" Two sugars. :p

2. They seem to move at the same speeds, and I fail to see how he can see a black marker in the shadows while moving at those speeds, I think he uses that as a target and knows the general direction.

[Muffin]

That's true I can'. But unfortunately for you that was Flying Thudnergod. You saw the seal, FLYING THUNDERGOD.
He disappeared, BODY FLICKER.
And appeared behind the seal, THUNDERGOD.
But Rin didn't catch Minato placing the seal on that guy's foot, so she just assumed it was Body Flicker.
Either way he still has moved faster than anyone else in Naruto, regardless whether he used body flicker to save Kakashi or own that poor bastard.


Body Flicker he didn't.
And Flying Thundergod isn't a Technique.
It's a Targeted Body Flicker, you place the seal and use Body Flicker towards it. He didn't take anything to the grave.

If the Technique were as simple as using a genin level technique to a marker than don't you think more than one person would know it?


I fail to see how I mentioned that levels matter and i fail to see how I contradicted myself.
I meant how you said Body flicker wasn't a technique because he was using thundergod then you just said thundergod wasn't a technique :confused:


Obviously not, how many of them are dead?
But anyway, no they aren't stronger.
Orochimaru had 3 Years to Live if he didn't get a new body.

They were all at their best then.

You aren't completely better at everything than a 30 year old when you're 50.

Oh right forgot about them being dead and stuff.
I doubt you could very well compare inexperienced non hermit style technique using Jiraiya to Hermit mode Jiraiya. Orochimaru learnt plenty of awesome shizz after leaving Konoha like the impure resurrection jutsu.


1. No, he meant just like his father, not a little bit like, no just, exactly like. I don't need to explain further, you've seen Naruto.
2. Nvm I was thinking when Jiriaya said he was like a son to him but they are quite similar.
3. Or....he could've used common sense? You train the best, what's there left to teach?
4. I know
5. T_T you hurt 5's feelings.


1. The same as in attitude and appearance, if he was exactly like his father then his father should've had a super powerful demon inside him :p
2. I'm still waiting for the reaction of Jiraiya dying to reach Naruto and see what happens..
3. Yes it's very probable Minato learnt a large amount of his sealing from Jiraiya and improved upon alot of them.
4. oky doky then
5. Your the one who left poor 5 out.

I do believe flying thunder god was a tech. It was called hiraishin no jutsu. It is basically a teleporting tech. He used the markers cause he moved so fast he could only actually see the markers. So they guided him as he moved. Body flicker isnt any part of flying thunder god.

That's probably the best theory as to the Markers and their use. He could use them to move around which is why he needed them to be thrown, so he doesn't like run into a tree and kill himself.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Either way he still has moved faster than anyone else in Naruto, regardless whether he used body flicker to save Kakashi or own that poor bastard.

Nah, I don't think so, Sasuke seemed to of moved just as fast.


If the Technique were as simple as using a genin level technique to a marker than don't you think more than one person would know it?

No, because I doubt the 4th would reveal that, you know that's the reason he was feared, if they found out it was a hoax they'd do it against him.


I meant how you said Body flicker wasn't a technique because he was using thundergod then you just said thundergod wasn't a technique :confused:

I don't remember that but that's obviously not true, Thundergod however is a Targeted Body Flicker.

Oh right forgot about them being dead and stuff.
I doubt you could very well compare inexperienced non hermit style technique using Jiraiya to Hermit mode Jiraiya. Orochimaru learnt plenty of awesome shizz after leaving Konoha like the impure resurrection jutsu.

Like someone said, It's not in the Amount of Jutsu but rather the power.
And also like Jiriaya said, a Ninja is not one who used Jutsu.
A Ninja is One Who Endures.

They were at their healthiest, their fastest, their overall best then.
Tell me how's your Grandma?
Tell me how's your mom?
If the answer is one or both dead, *opens mouth* insert foot.

1. The same as in attitude and appearance, if he was exactly like his father then his father should've had a super powerful demon inside him :p
2. I'm still waiting for the reaction of Jiraiya dying to reach Naruto and see what happens..
3. Yes it's very probable Minato learnt a large amount of his sealing from Jiraiya and improved upon alot of them.
4. oky doky then
5. Your the one who left poor 5 out.

1. True
2. Yep
3. Sealing?
4. Yup
5. God...I am such a bitch....

[Muffin]

Nah, I don't think so, Sasuke seemed to of moved just as fast.
Yea well thats only because Kishi regrets no naming the show Sasuke. And Sasuke has never moved the Distance Minato did in such short time.


No, because I doubt the 4th would reveal that, you know that's the reason he was feared, if they found out it was a hoax they'd do it against him.
How would it be a hoax? There would be alot more to the Thundergod than simply teleporting behind someone and stabbing them, he killed some 50 ninja's in the blink of an eye using it.


I don't remember that but that's obviously not true, Thundergod however is a Targeted Body Flicker.
Body Flicker is still not something so basic and simple for a genin to learn. Just because someone's moved and dodged an attack doesn't mean it was a body flicker, it's just a way of showing off.


Like someone said, It's not in the Amount of Jutsu but rather the power.
And also like Jiriaya said, a Ninja is not one who used Jutsu.
A Ninja is One Who Endures.

They were at their healthiest, their fastest, their overall best then.
Tell me how's your Grandma?
Tell me how's your mom?
If the answer is one or both dead, *opens mouth* insert foot.

Hermit mode Jiraiya was stronger than normal Jiraiya, Jiraiya learnt his hermit mode after being a hermit, which was during his travels, he had not yet reached his prime by his late 20's. Orochimaru was also in the process of learning powerful techniques that made him as feared as he was, so he wouldn't have been in his prime yet either. Tsunade i just really don't care about.


1. True
2. Yep
3. Sealing?
4. Yup
5. God...I am such a bitch....

3. Yea sealing, he created the seal for the Kyuubi and the Kunai's and crap like that, Jiraiya was also talented in the sealing techniques.

[vane]

1. Awesome Avatar xDDD I'll have a cup of "Shut the f**k up" Two sugars. :p

2. They seem to move at the same speeds, and I fail to see how he can see a black marker in the shadows while moving at those speeds, I think he uses that as a target and knows the general direction.

Thats what I mean. It just helps guide him when he uses that tech. But body flicker and hiraishin are not the same speed or else hiraishin no jutsu wouldnt be such a big deal. If it were as fast as a regular body flicker then it wouldnt have to have markers. You see body flicker is just you moving really fast where as hiraishin is a sort of teleportation (kinda like stepping into a portal then coming out of the other side) not just moving fast.

Oh and thanks for complimeting on my avatar it took me a while to find.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Yea well thats only because Kishi regrets no naming the show Sasuke. And Sasuke has never moved the Distance Minato did in such short time.

Sasuke vs. Deidara


How would it be a hoax? There would be alot more to the Thundergod than simply teleporting behind someone and stabbing them, he killed some 50 ninja's in the blink of an eye using it.

Only because there was 50 Kunai.

Body Flicker is still not something so basic and simple for a genin to learn. Just because someone's moved and dodged an attack doesn't mean it was a body flicker, it's just a way of showing off.

Body Flicker is a Genin Level Technique, every genin knows and can use it.

Hermit mode Jiraiya was stronger than normal Jiraiya, Jiraiya learnt his hermit mode after being a hermit, which was during his travels, he had not yet reached his prime by his late 20's. Orochimaru was also in the process of learning powerful techniques that made him as feared as he was, so he wouldn't have been in his prime yet either. Tsunade i just really don't care about.

You still don't understand.
Prime is not Strongest.
Prime is Best.

[Chronicknave]

That battle I'd seriously love to see...I can't really decide who'd win.

[Masterofdeath]

Minato would win because of what i said earlier. He would use the death god seal and shadow clones to defeat Pein. It would happen... there is no way minato would be hyped up the way he is as the greatest hokage and be unable to defeat Pein. No, the only shinobi with the power to defeat Minato is Madara and the Sage of Six Paths and even they would have trouble to defeating him.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Minato would win because of what i said earlier. He would use the death god seal and shadow clones to defeat Pein. It would happen... there is no way minato would be hyped up the way he is as the greatest hokage and be unable to defeat Pein. No, the only shinobi with the power to defeat Minato is Madara and the Sage of Six Paths and even they would have trouble to defeating him.

Wrong.
All, completely and 100% wrong.

1. if he uses the Death God Seal, he's dead and there are 5 Pein's Left.
2. We don't know if he can use Shadow Clone Jutsu or not, don't say he can
3. It's called being Overrated, he's been this entire debate.
4. Madara was before Minato's Time, so was the Sage of Six Paths which...is PEIN!!!!

The Sage of Six Paths, is now Pein.

[Masterofdeath]

Pein is not the sage of six paths that is an assumption. Leave assumptions out of this.

[Masterofdeath]

Plus we will find out who is stronger, because Minato is not dead.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Pein is not the sage of six paths that is an assumption. Leave assumptions out of this.

No, that is not an assumption.
The Sage of Six Paths knew all 6 Elements, a master of Ninjutsu, and has the Rinnegan.
Pein, falls under all three categories.
It's not an assumption, it's putting the pieces together.

Plus we will find out who is stronger, because Minato is not dead.

...
My heads gonna explode from the overload of crap today.
School, Religious Junkies, and now this.
Okay, Minato is dead, dead, gone, dead and buried, Death Seal Jutsu kills you, he is dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, dead, DEAD.
No loop holes, no wiggle room, no shadow clones, no nothing. He is DEAD.

[Masterofdeath]

I have seen evidence. Minato's final jutsu was a flash sealing jutsu. And appeared completely different from the Death Sealing Jutsu. If this is the case he is most likely not dead. And the Rinnegan is a Doujustu that is passed down except unlike the sharingan it is passed down every thousand of years. Besides I am 99.9% sure that the actual Sage of Six Paths is alive, just like Madara. 1. He is a master of ninjutsu which includes reincarnation jutsu 2. He can both create and take life, which means he can choose wether he lives or dies 3. He contains the rinnegan which can clearly be used to shift to others bodies, thus he probaly lives on in anothers body or has used a jutsu that makes him immortal just as Madara and Orochimaru have done.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I have seen evidence. Minato's final jutsu was a flash sealing jutsu. And appeared completely different from the Death Sealing Jutsu. If this is the case he is most likely not dead.

You are completely wrong here.
That was the Death Sealing Jutsu, but it changed because it was never shown.
And also, that was the end of a scene!


And the Rinnegan is a Doujustu that is passed down except unlike the sharingan it is passed down every thousand of years. Besides I am 99.9% sure that the actual Sage of Six Paths is alive, just like Madara.

He is not alive, there has been no evidence at all.
Secondly, Madara is alive in a way, he's part of Tobi, is the Sage Part of Pein?

1. He is a master of ninjutsu which includes reincarnation jutsu 2. He can both create and take life, which means he can choose wether he lives or dies 3. He contains the rinnegan which can clearly be used to shift to others bodies, thus he probaly lives on in anothers body or has used a jutsu that makes him immortal just as Madara and Orochimaru have done.

Madara and Orochimaru aren't immortal, they're immoral.
And no one chooses weather they live or die.
No one in this series is immortal, except Hidan, which was never explained....

[Muffin]

Sasuke vs. Deidara

Oh wow, he did use it aswell. Your right about the Body flicker. But it still does not compare to Minato's, Minato's variation was much different and much faster than Sasuke's was.


Only because there was 50 Kunai.
It still takes more than a second to hit 50 targets if your moving to, stab, move to the next, stab, move to next, stab etc.



Body Flicker is a Genin Level Technique, every genin knows and can use it.
Pure speculation, Minato's body flicker was still shown to be faster than anyone elses.



You still don't understand.
Prime is not Strongest.
Prime is Best.

And Jiraiya was in his best when he had Hermit mode. Orochimaru was in his best after gaining a new body. Tsunade sucks at all times so she doesn't matter.

Madara and Orochimaru aren't immortal, they're immoral.
And no one chooses weather they live or die.
No one in this series is immortal, except Hidan, which was never explained....

Kishi really should explain how Hidan does that anyway...
And we don't know how Madara is immortal, he could be immortal by using the power of bunnies for all we know.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Pure speculation, Minato's body flicker was still shown to be faster than anyone elses.

Until now you didn't even know anyone else has used body flicker, how can you be sure?

Oh wow, he did use it aswell. Your right about the Body flicker. But it still does not compare to Minato's, Minato's variation was much different and much faster than Sasuke's was.

There's no speed difference, I did not notice it, in fact I believe Sasuke's was faster, Minato traveled 20 feet in less than a second yet Sasuke traveled 10 miles in that amount of time.


And we don't know how Madara is immortal, he could be immortal by using the power of bunnies for all we know.

If this turns out to be true someone should just cancel it!
lol Just to prolong any further aggravation, just end it.

[vane]

Until now you didn't even know anyone else has used body flicker, how can you be sure?



There's no speed difference, I did not notice it, in fact I believe Sasuke's was faster, Minato traveled 20 feet in less than a second yet Sasuke traveled 10 miles in that amount of time.



If this turns out to be true someone should just cancel it!
lol Just to prolong any further aggravation, just end it.

When did Sasuke travel 10 miles from a body flicker? Minato was know for his speed. Like I said dont get me wrong Sasuke is fast but Mianto is the Yellow Flash.

[Muffin]

Until now you didn't even know anyone else has used body flicker, how can you be sure?
Because im Ignant :p It's still not a basic technique otherwise Minato's wouldn't be special at all for even using it.


There's no speed difference, I did not notice it, in fact I believe Sasuke's was faster, Minato traveled 20 feet in less than a second yet Sasuke traveled 10 miles in that amount of time.
Sasuke moved like...4 feet and you could see him moving, Minato could only be seen as a poof then pulling Kakashi away using it.


If this turns out to be true someone should just cancel it!
lol Just to prolong any further aggravation, just end it.

Lol wut?

[caleb08]

yondaime would win without a doubt

[Doctor Octogonapus]

When did Sasuke travel 10 miles from a body flicker? Minato was know for his speed. Like I said dont get me wrong Sasuke is fast but Mianto is the Yellow Flash.

So What?
He has a name?
No one new that it was all just a trick, it wasn't an unlearnable jutsu only capable of being learned by the 4th, it was a Genin Level Jutsu with a Tag.

And Sasuke vs. Deidara.

Because im Ignant :p It's still not a basic technique otherwise Minato's wouldn't be special at all for even using it.


Yes it is.
It is a Genin Level Technique.


Sasuke moved like...4 feet and you could see him moving, Minato could only be seen as a poof then pulling Kakashi away using it.

No he didn't.
No one saw him move, Deidara didn't see him move, Naruto and Yamato didn't see him move. No one did.

yondaime would win without a doubt

No, he wouldn't.

[vane]

So What?
He has a name?
No one new that it was all just a trick, it wasn't an unlearnable jutsu only capable of being learned by the 4th, it was a Genin Level Jutsu with a Tag.

And Sasuke vs. Deidara.



Yes it is.
It is a Genin Level Technique.




No he didn't.
No one saw him move, Deidara didn't see him move, Naruto and Yamato didn't see him move. No one did.



No, he wouldn't.

Actually the reason Sasuke went that far was because of summoning Manda then going inside of him then unsummoning him. Then Suigetsu resummoned him and let Sasuke out. He never used body flicker to get away from the blast.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Actually the reason Sasuke went that far was because of summoning Manda then going inside of him then unsummoning him. Then Suigetsu resummoned him and let Sasuke out. He never used body flicker to get away from the blast.

...Yes he did.
He used a Time-Space Jutsu, he used Body Flicker, he used the same thing Tobi did to escape Shino's bugs.
You can't summon, something, unsummon something and somehow move.
Manda was there, and Suigetsu can't summon Manda, only Sasuke and Orochimaru could, Suigetsu was held as a prisoner.

[vane]

...Yes he did.
He used a Time-Space Jutsu, he used Body Flicker, he used the same thing Tobi did to escape Shino's bugs.
You can't summon, something, unsummon something and somehow move.
Manda was there, and Suigetsu can't summon Manda, only Sasuke and Orochimaru could, Suigetsu was held as a prisoner.

Yes he summoned Manda then went inside of Manda to keep from getting destroyed by the blast. Then he unsummoned him so that the blast wouldnt kill them both. Im going to back through the fight and check on it just to double check and make sure I didnt miss anything.

I just went back through to make sure I didnt miss anything and yes he went inside Manda through genjutsu which isnt a time/space jutsu and took control of him. Suigetsu then later resummoned Manda through using a vial of something, probably Orochimaru's blood then summoned him and let Sasuke out. If you dont believe me go back through and read its chapter 363. He doesnt use a body flicker to go 10 miles.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I just went back through to make sure I didnt miss anything and yes he went inside Manda through genjutsu which isnt a time/space jutsu and took control of him. Suigetsu then later resummoned Manda through using a vial of something, probably Orochimaru's blood then summoned him and let Sasuke out. If you dont believe me go back through and read its chapter 363. He doesnt use a body flicker to go 10 miles.

Maybe not there.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/357/10/
http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000307/13.jpg
http://img7.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000307/15.jpg

Muffin you got me, Body Flicker can be controlled.

[vane]

^^ Yea he moved really fast through body flicker. When people use body flicker the enemy does usually lose sight of the user. But I wouldnt call that a time/space jutsu just cause they couldnt see him. But that doesnt have anything to do with the Deidara and Sasuke fight. Cause Sasuke didnt body flicker 10 miles. He used Manda.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

True he didn't.
My mistake, thanks for clearing that up :)

[vane]

Its cool. But you do run a hard game.