Sasuke vs. Neji (OFFICIAL THREAD)

[Jackums]

Lol, such little faith in Neji. However, I could argue several ways that Sasuke could be defeated by Neji. Yes, he has chidori and kirin, but both of those techniques are useless in this battle thanks to byakugan. Don't mention a mystery power to destroy konoha because Sasuke hasn't shown it so it is irrelevant. And, the only technique that is overwhelming is amateratsu, which Neji can counter. So, if you think about it this is actually a very good discussion.

Oh really? And after that statement, you continued debating on Neji's side, and making extremely fanatical claims like "Heavenly Spin can counter Amaterasu". Don't try turn it around, and claim you were never saying Neji would win.

[Masterofdeath]

I didn't, but I could say many ways Neji could defeat Sasuke.

[Bushido Brown]

Im giving this one to Neji. Neji can stop some of Sasuke's moves, while Sasuke couldnt stop any of Neji's. All Neji really has to do is hit Sasuke's chakra points and it over, but i wont go into that. Sasuke lost alot of his power (CS and Orichimaru's abilities) and he doesnt even know how to controll his MS yet. I dont buy that Sasuke is faster than Neji crap. Neji trains with two of the fastest characters in the entire series, and he was faster than Lee in there sparing matches, and dont give me that crap about Lee was holding back, because he wasn't since he wanted to beat Neji bad.[Sorry Lee i had to throw you under bus T_T]. Like Master said earlier "Neji didnt become a Jounin by luck."

Genjutsu wouldnt really come into place since the Byukgan can see the source of chakra and where the genjutsu is coming from. If Hinata can counter genjutsu with ease i know Neji can.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I didn't, but I could say many ways Neji could defeat Sasuke.

Sure if sasuke is blind, tied up, out of chakra, and pleading neji to kill him, im sure neji may be able to pull it off. (sorry for the sarcasm, i dont usually get a chance to use it):lol:

[MinatoNamikaze]

Im giving this one to Neji. Neji can stop some of Sasuke's moves, while Sasuke couldnt stop any of Neji's. All Neji really has to do is hit Sasuke's chakra points and it over, but i wont go into that. Sasuke lost alot of his power (CS and Orichimaru's abilities) and he doesnt even know how to controll his MS yet. I dont buy that Sasuke is faster than Neji crap. Neji trains with two of the fastest characters in the entire series, and he was faster than Lee in there sparing matches, and dont give me that crap about Lee was holding back, because he wasn't since he wanted to beat Neji bad.[Sorry Lee i had to throw you under bus T_T]. Like Master said earlier "Neji didnt become a Jounin by luck."

Genjutsu wouldnt really come into place since the Byukgan can see the source of chakra and where the genjutsu is coming from. If Hinata can counter genjutsu with ease i know Neji can.

Amateratsu is enough to end this. Neji cant dodge or block it. Also neji cant keep up with sasukes speed and sword skills. Finally, nejis gentle fist fighting style is completely negated due to chidori nagashi

[Jackums]

Im giving this one to Neji. Neji can stop some of Sasuke's moves, while Sasuke couldnt stop any of Neji's.

Define "stop" and give examples of what you mean.

All Neji really has to do is hit Sasuke's chakra points and it over, but i wont go into that.

Chidori Nagashi negates this. And since Neji has no knowledge of this, it's even more in Sasuke's favour. There's also Sasuke's knowledge of Neji's techniques. He won't fall for it.

Sasuke lost alot of his power (CS and Orichimaru's abilities) and he doesnt even know how to controll his MS yet.

He knows enough to use Amaterasu. Neji is raped.

I dont buy that Sasuke is faster than Neji crap. Neji trains with two of the fastest characters in the entire series, and he was faster than Lee in there sparing matches, and dont give me that crap about Lee was holding back, because he wasn't since he wanted to beat Neji bad.[Sorry Lee i had to throw you under bus T_T]. Like Master said earlier "Neji didnt become a Jounin by luck."

This belongs in fanfiction. TenTen also trains with them, yet she is extremely slow compared to most characters.

Genjutsu wouldnt really come into place since the Byukgan can see the source of chakra and where the genjutsu is coming from. If Hinata can counter genjutsu with ease i know Neji can.

Has Neji ever escaped a genjutsu? We have no proof. Therefore it's speculation.

[Masterofdeath]

You have to be at least average against genjutsu to become a jounin. Also, whats not to say A Great Kaiten can't stop amateratsu.

[Smiley]

Because Kaiten is nothing more than unrecomposed chakra simultanously released from the Tenketsu - Amaterasu would just burn through the chakra and kill Neji.

Really, Neji doesn't stand a chance based on what we've seen. Open this same thread in the dubbed section, and you have a debatable fight.

[Masterofdeath]

How can you prove the amateratsu will burn through chakra? I haven't seen anyone burn through a barrier of chakra, and not ever pein could do that and he is far superior to sasuke.

[Jackums]

Grow up.
Take your ridiculous theories to the literature section. Write a story. I don't care. But keep it out of the battledome. Your rebuttals are weak, and fanatical. Either debate with solid facts, or don't post. Simple.

[MinatoNamikaze]

You have to be at least average against genjutsu to become a jounin. Also, whats not to say A Great Kaiten can't stop amateratsu.

actaully byakugan negates all genjutsu iirc minus tsukiyomi i think

[Masterofdeath]

I thought it did, but I didn't want to say it because I wasn't 100% sure. However, tyskuyomi is not important because Sasuke can't even use it.

[Bushido Brown]

Amateratsu is enough to end this. Neji cant dodge or block it. Also neji cant keep up with sasukes speed and sword skills. Finally, nejis gentle fist fighting style is completely negated due to chidori nagashi



Why cant he dodge it? Amateratsu isnt an instant hit and its not really that fast. It may be more powerful then all fire jutsu but its just as fast as any other fire jutsu. Like i said Neji trains with two of the fast people in the entire manga, so why wouldnt he be as fast if not faster than sasuke. Its not like Gai just teaches Lee things and tell Neji and Ten Ten to go train themselves. Your appling that every move that Sasuke pull will automatical hit Neji, and rotation can stop chodori. Sasuke wouldnt dare get close to Neji,

[Masterofdeath]

His response will be that the amateratsu only hits its target and doesn't stop burning until it hits its target. Now that we know what his response is I will refute that with the fact that it could easily be dodged by a replacement jutsu or shadow clone. Sasuke would not know the difference because the sharingan does not have that ability like the byakugan does.

[Jackums]

Btw, are we talking about Hebi Sasuke, or MS Sasuke?

Like i said Neji trains with two of the fast people in the entire manga, so why wouldnt he be as fast if not faster than sasuke. Its not like Gai just teaches Lee things and tell Neji and Ten Ten to go train themselves.

And like I said; The fact that he trains with fast characters is irrelevant. Is TenTen fast?
+ Enough with the whole "ZOMG, he trains with fast characters". We have no proof he's faster than Sasuke. Drop it.

Your appling that every move that Sasuke pull will automatical hit Neji, and rotation can stop chodori. Sasuke wouldnt dare get close to Neji,

Stop? If Neji gets near Sasuke, he'd be paralyzed by Chidori Nagashi.

[vane]

It doesn't need to be stated, because the ability to dissolve genjutsu is required before you can even become a jounin. It is a genin level ability. Sakura could do so, and Neji is far superior to her.
Depends on the genjutsu used. We have seen in the fight with Bee that Sasuke has a genjutsu that cant be broken unless the person has a team member or something like how Bee was able to get out of the genjutsu that Sasuke put him in because of the 8 tails. And it doesnt matter who becomes a jonin or who's still a Chuunin and what not. Levels like that doesnt make up who would win anything. Naruto' still a genin and would PWN Neji like no tomorrow. But speaking her 8 tails is by far past genin level. 8 tails is greater than Neji. So yeah ranks and such doesnt make a difference.

Body flicker as stated several times is a genin level jutsu that every shinobi is the villiage knows.

Wow you just stated the complete obvious. Sasuke is still faster with his body flicker. Or without it for that matter.

Actually, it negates alot like surprise attacks.

Actually I think you should learn a new term since negate isnt the right word for what your trying to say. It doesnt negate anything. And also it doesnt stop surprise attack. Look at the fight when Naruto goes under ground :rolleyes: yeah that was sure negated to hell and back.

360 vision would allow him to see Sasuke coming and allow him to devise a counter. Also, great kaiten would be more than enough to stop kirin.


Yeah see him coming when he's done spinning and hasnt regained his composer and doesnt have time to react. I mean I thought this was learned in the begining of the series. That just because you can see something doesnt mean you can react to it :facepalm:

And givin the chance that Kirin would be stopped by the rotation, the rotation has to stop at some point and gives Sasuke an opening when Neji stops.

No need to, it is very debatable.

YOu havnt debated yet. All you have done is just said you, you, and you are wrong and I am right. YOu havnt countered anything but said that this is wrong because I said so. No proof behind anything.

And, tell me how Sasuke can counter any jutsu Neji can use... and you'll see that you can't.
I know its been stated but all Neji really has as far as attack goes is his gentle fist which if Im not mistaken is just taijutsu that when hits the opponent stops chaktra flow. Well how can he touch something that has electricity pulsing all around its body. Wouldnt work out to well.

Until, you can actually beat me in a debate you will always be a joke to me.

This comment was uncalled for. Makes you sound pretty arrogant excuse my name calling.

Lol! Never did I claim Neji could beat Sasuke, but I do believe he could give Sasuke one hell of a fight
You sure do stick to Neji like he can. And actually you have.... Here However, I could argue several ways that Sasuke could be defeated by Neji
Said in your first comeback on the first page. Yet you havnt said one way that Neji can beat Sasuke. Just defended that rotation can stop anything Sasuke has (assuming that Neji has an unlimited supply of rotations).

actaully byakugan negates all genjutsu iirc minus tsukiyomi i think
Proof please. Id like to know how Byakugan negates genjutsu.

Im giving this one to Neji. Neji can stop some of Sasuke's moves, while Sasuke couldnt stop any of Neji's. All Neji really has to do is hit Sasuke's chakra points and it over
How can you hit something that basically has an electric shield shrouding his body?

I dont buy that Sasuke is faster than Neji crap. Neji trains with two of the fastest characters in the entire series, and he was faster than Lee in there sparing matches, and dont give me that crap about Lee was holding back, because he wasn't since he wanted to beat Neji bad
Hahaha and you think Lee was moving top speed? :facepalm: in those sparring matches did you see Lee's weights taken off? Yes Lee goes out but he's not going to get serious with his comrades in just a simple spar lol

Genjutsu wouldnt really come into place since the Byukgan can see the source of chakra and where the genjutsu is coming from. If Hinata can counter genjutsu with ease i know Neji can
Again depends on what genjutsu it is. Any weak shinobi can break a common genjutsu. But the one he used on Bee seemed pretty effective until Bee used his beast to break it. Which if Im not mistaken, Neji doesnt have a beast inside him lol

Why cant he dodge it? Amateratsu isnt an instant hit and its not really that fast.
Actually it is. It instantly catches fire to what ever it see's. The only reason Sasuke had a chance is because he moved before the shot was fired when Itachi was a little preoccupied with putting out a katon attack with it previously. It doesnt actually travel. It is instant.

It may be more powerful then all fire jutsu but its just as fast as any other fire jutsu.
Again no. I dont see how you would think that seeing as Sasuke was moving at top speed and still couldnt get away from the flames. Any normal katon just moves to its one spot like in a stright line where as Amaterasu (if the opponent gets the jump and starts moving before the attack is released) can move and go different directions since it goes where ever the eye focuses on.

Its not like Gai just teaches Lee things and tell Neji and Ten Ten to go train themselves.
No but Gai teaches Lee more especially in the speed department since Lee has nothing else to fall on besides Taijutsu.

Your appling that every move that Sasuke pull will automatical hit Neji,
Not necissarily but the same can be said about how you and MoD thinks that all of Neji's attacks will hit and also thinking that he can actually dodge all of Sasuke's attacks.

You have to be at least average against genjutsu to become a jounin.
Ok and what if its not an average Genjustu. Thats the point. Sasuke has more than average Genjutsu.

Because Kaiten is nothing more than unrecomposed chakra simultanously released from the Tenketsu - Amaterasu would just burn through the chakra and kill Neji.
Exactly. As stated in the manga Amaterasu can burn through anything.

Has Neji ever escaped a genjutsu? We have no proof. Therefore it's speculation.

I agree

His response will be that the amateratsu only hits its target and doesn't stop burning until it hits its target.
Gah arrogant again. You dont really know what he would say :facepalm: but where as its not true that it only hits its target it is still instant.

Sasuke would not know the difference because the sharingan does not have that ability like the byakugan does.

Actually if Im not mistake wasnt Neji PWNED by Naruto because of a shadow clone :blink: and also wasnt Neji fooled twice in that fight? Yeah I would say so myself

For one even Byakugan cant tell the difference between shadow clone or not. Reason:

A shadow clone is an exact copy of the original user. Meaning all the same chakra points all the same organs. All the same everything. Even the BYakugan can be fooled when it comes to shadow clones since shadow clones are exact copies of the user, inside and out and yes even chakra.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Why cant he dodge it? Amateratsu isnt an instant hit and its not really that fast. It may be more powerful then all fire jutsu but its just as fast as any other fire jutsu. Like i said Neji trains with two of the fast people in the entire manga, so why wouldnt he be as fast if not faster than sasuke. Its not like Gai just teaches Lee things and tell Neji and Ten Ten to go train themselves. Your appling that every move that Sasuke pull will automatical hit Neji, and rotation can stop chodori. Sasuke wouldnt dare get close to Neji,

Amateratsu is undodgeable and it focuses on what the pupil concentrates on so even a bushin wouldnt get in the way if the sharingan kept track of the main body. Sasuke doesnt have to get near neji, but if he did a simply chidori nagashi would be enough to end the fight

His response will be that the amateratsu only hits its target and doesn't stop burning until it hits its target. Now that we know what his response is I will refute that with the fact that it could easily be dodged by a replacement jutsu or shadow clone. Sasuke would not know the difference because the sharingan does not have that ability like the byakugan does.

^^ look up for amateratsu counter

Btw, are we talking about Hebi Sasuke, or MS Sasuke?

im talking MS.

And like I said; The fact that he trains with fast characters is irrelevant. Is TenTen fast?
+ Enough with the whole "ZOMG, he trains with fast characters". We have no proof he's faster than Sasuke. Drop it.

TY

Stop? If Neji gets near Sasuke, he'd be paralyzed by Chidori Nagashi

Exactly

Proof please. Id like to know how Byakugan negates genjutsu.

This is because it allows the user to see the real world and the chakra in it. Im fairly certain i am right and ill look for a manga page to back me up. Ill get back to you ASAP though:lol:

[vane]

^^ Ive heard that theory also and it doesnt stick with me one bit lol so yeah if you find proff of it Id like to see it. If not then it cant be said that Byakugan negates genjutsu.

Also if you will please try and not double post

[Smiley]

This is because it allows the user to see the real world and the chakra in it. Im fairly certain i am right and ill look for a manga page to back me up. Ill get back to you ASAP though:lol:

So do Sharingan and Rin'negan and yet we've seen users of both doujutsu get caught in genjutsu countless times.

It might help a Hyuuga differentiate genjutsu from real world, but I don't see how it would help him break out of it.

[MinatoNamikaze]

So do Sharingan and Rin'negan and yet we've seen users of both doujutsu get caught in genjutsu countless times.

idk about rinnegan, but which shraingan user was caught in genjutsu? When genjutsu is placed on them they have the ability to counter it which has happened

It might help a Hyuuga differentiate genjutsu from real world, but I don't see how it would help him break out of it.

oh ya i didnt mean break it, but just realize they are in gnejtusu

^^Ive heard that theory also and it doesnt stick with me one bit lol so yeah if you find proff of it Id like to see it. If not then it cant be said that Byakugan negates genjutsu.

ok i havent been able to find anything in particular but ill just explain the theory. Basically the byakugan lets the user see chakra and such right, well this lets them see what is real and what is not. I cant find any times when a hyuga was put into genjutus so i gues its not 100% anyway

Also if you will please try and not double post

Oh did i double post?? Sorry about that, i wasnt paying attention. I apologize :lol:

[vane]

^^ That was my point to be able to get out of genjutusu. Byakugan cant get out of a genjutsu. Hasnt been shown and/or proven that they can. So we assume that they are just like any other shinobi in the world when it comes to being put in genjutsu ;)

Also you double posted again :facepalm: I just deleted it and added it to the post you had above that.

[Masterofdeath]

When he is talking about a sharingan user he is referring to kakashi being trapped in genjutsu by Itachi, but that is only because Itachi's sharingan was superior at that time. Genjutsu would no longer work on Kakashi. Anyway back to the debate at hand. Neji doesn't have to get close to Sasuke to hit him because he has a jutsu that allows him to send chakra through the ground to hit a target, which of course is within his trigram range. So, chidori nagashi though a good arguement can be overcome.

[taiyana_chan]

Yeah, from Neji's powers now compared to how much we have seen Sasuke grow since the academy days is a drastic difference. If Neji pulled out something higher level than Amaterasu, which Sasuke got from Itachi so I highly doubt it'd happen, I'd be freakin' surprised, but right now we don't have enough evidence to say that Neji is higher level than Sasuke.

[Masterofdeath]

We don't have enough evidence to prove he is weaker. So, we are arguing the vital points of the fight. For example the amateratsu, kirin, and chidori nagashi.

[linksmolecules]

Neji's due for an intense battle to see how he has improved over the time skip. Pre time skip Neji would own a two tome sharingan, Sauske, however, not knowing how Neji has improved, Sausuke has to be the clear victor. Ecspcially since we have seen Sauseke improve his chidori and MS.

[Masterofdeath]

You would think that, but I believe the only way to solve this is through my favorite thing:lmao: battle simulation!!!!!!!

[MinatoNamikaze]

When he is talking about a sharingan user he is referring to kakashi being trapped in genjutsu by Itachi, but that is only because Itachi's sharingan was superior at that time. Genjutsu would no longer work on Kakashi. Anyway back to the debate at hand. Neji doesn't have to get close to Sasuke to hit him because he has a jutsu that allows him to send chakra through the ground to hit a target, which of course is within his trigram range. So, chidori nagashi though a good arguement can be overcome.

Ok but Kirin, and sasukes lighting sword are 2 things neji cant get around

That was my point to be able to get out of genjutusu. Byakugan cant get out of a genjutsu. Hasnt been shown and/or proven that they can. So we assume that they are just like any other shinobi in the world when it comes to being put in genjutsu ;)

Ok fair enough i agree, but if you can see around it it doesnt really matter if you r in it or not cause you can tell real from fake

Also you double posted again :facepalm: I just deleted it and added it to the post you had above that

:blink: :confused: :confused: You honestly have no idea how stupid i feel right now. Goes to show that a 94% average doesnt really mean much in the real world......:( :confused: (again sorry about that):xd:

[Jackums]

Like MN said, both Karin and Kusanagi cannot be overcome.

Neji doesn't have to get close to Sasuke to hit him because he has a jutsu that allows him to send chakra through the ground to hit a target, which of course is within his trigram range. So, chidori nagashi though a good arguement can be overcome.

What jutsu are you referring to?

[Muffin]

When he is talking about a sharingan user he is referring to kakashi being trapped in genjutsu by Itachi, but that is only because Itachi's sharingan was superior at that time. Genjutsu would no longer work on Kakashi.
Lawl such epic fail.

Itachi and Sasuke both used Genjutsu on each other in the beginning of that god-awful fight and Kakashi hasn't shown any reason why Kakashi is immune to Genjutsu.

Anyway back to the debate at hand. Neji doesn't have to get close to Sasuke to hit him because he has a jutsu that allows him to send chakra through the ground to hit a target, which of course is within his trigram range. So, chidori nagashi though a good arguement can be overcome.

Are you talking about his attack he used on the clone of Kisame where he sent a blast of chakra and hit Kisame?

That would not win the battle for Neji. The only way Neji could win is if Sasuke cut his wrists so deeply that he loses the use of his body through blood loss and goes blind.

Sasuke's Emoterasu is all that's required to win this battle. Hell he doesn't even need that seeing as Neji has nothing on Genjutsu or Kirin.

Lol people Byakugan doesn't have anything to do with Genjutsu. Genjutsu uses chakra to control the senses in the opponents brain. Neji will simply be in a genjutsu all 360 degress of vision.

[duckofdoom99]

So the main points of the pro sasuke side seem to be that neji can do nothing against genjutsu or kirin, however both of these are very circumstantial.

For genjutsu:
Have we ever seen a byakugan user in genjutsu or one even been tried on a byakugan user? We know that they can see chakra so at the very least they would realize they are in genjutsu and then be able to use jiraiya's method of escaping. Since neji has pin point chakra control this should be no problem.

For Kirin:
The only way sasuke can use kirin is if there is already a lightning storm. He can't create lightning he needs the strom to be there and then he can call the lightning through his technique. So kirin is a mute point unless they are fighting in the midst of a thunderstorm or have some manner of creating one.

[Jackums]

For Kirin:
The only way sasuke can use kirin is if there is already a lightning storm. He can't create lightning he needs the strom to be there and then he can call the lightning through his technique. So kirin is a mute point unless they are fighting in the midst of a thunderstorm or have some manner of creating one.

Amaterasu was used to create the storm. The flames cause the condensation which led to the rainclouds, and the storm used to perform Kirin. After Sasuke uses Amaterasu, it will only take a short while for the clouds to form.

Either way, Sasuke won't need to use Kirin in the first place. Amaterasu = Major Neji rapage. Done.
And that still depends on Sasuke even needing to use Amaterasu in the first place. If Neji even gets caught in Chidori Nagashi once, he'll be temporarily paralyzed. Once that happens, Kusanagi will finish the job. Even so, I doubt Sasuke will need to go to such extents to defeat Neji.

[Masterofdeath]

You are greatly doubting neji's abilities. What happens if he plays possum and catches sasuke with 64 palms or even worse 120 palm.

[WhiteFang]

^ But how can he do that? Sasuke is a sharingan user after all.

Well, I don't see the point of this debate actually. We've seen too much from Sasuke and nothing too impressive from Neji. Sasuke is easily one of the strongest guys out there and Neji's only moment of glory on the otherhand is getting trapped in the water prison by Kisame (though I do understand that that was most likely for plot purposes, but still)

Neji's main strength, being a Hyuuga, remains to be taijutsu, which is a bad idea against the hax sharingan in the first place. And Sasuke has shown to be well-rounded in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Taijutsu. I don't see Neji getting away from Sasuke's numerous Katon and Raiton techs all too easily. And Sasuke has also shown some good tricky moves, which will help him gain an upperhand. Take a fast move like Housenka followed by Chidori Nagashi from slightly close range and Neji will be in a bit of a sweat, allowing an opening for Sasuke, for a end all move like Amaterasu. I mean.. someone tell me how Neji is getting away from Amaterasu. And as it looks, Sasuke seems to have the speed on his side in this match up.

[Masterofdeath]

And like I said before the amateratsu is not that great a technique and can easily be overcome by a replacement jutsu or shadow clone. Amateratsu is overrated and truthfully is nothing too scary.

[WhiteFang]

^ And when exactly have we seen Neji use a Kawarimi or shadow clone to any effect?
So that is just an assumption.
And further, I'd like to point out that Amaterasu is one of the most lethal techs in the Narutoverse, which is proven by the fact that it can actually burn through fire even and appears wherever the user's eye focuses. So essentially, Neji will get fried if he's in Sasuke's line of sight.

[duckofdoom99]

Amaterasu was used to create the storm. The flames cause the condensation which led to the rainclouds, and the storm used to perform Kirin. After Sasuke uses Amaterasu, it will only take a short while for the clouds to form.It wasn't just amaretasu. It was 2 amaretasu's and 2 or 3 other fire attacks. 1 amaretasu has never done it.

Either way, Sasuke won't need to use Kirin in the first place. Amaterasu = Major Neji rapage. Done.
And that still depends on Sasuke even needing to use Amaterasu in the first place. If Neji even gets caught in Chidori Nagashi once, he'll be temporarily paralyzed. Once that happens, Kusanagi will finish the job. Even so, I doubt Sasuke will need to go to such extents to defeat Neji.A kaiten will stop chidori nagashi as well as any sword attack. As for amaretasu, substitution will work fine as sasuke showed us. Also, if sasuke uses amaretasu and misses, it is over. The only way he kept going last time was with kirin and jugo healing/giving him chakara.

[Smiley]

A kaiten will stop chidori nagashi as well as any sword attack. As for amaretasu, substitution will work fine as sasuke showed us. Also, if sasuke uses amaretasu and misses, it is over. The only way he kept going last time was with kirin and jugo healing/giving him chakara.

Neji lacks a substitution jutsu of Snake Bulimia's level. All he has is Kawarimi no jutsu, and the idea of the basic Academy-level replacement technique being used to avoid Amaterasu is laughable.

Not to mention, it was stated that Itachi could have killed Sasuke with Amaterasu if he really tried, despite him having one of the most advanced substitution techniques in the series.

Amaterasu fries and rapes Neji, hard.

[duckofdoom99]

Neji lacks a substitution jutsu of Snake Bulimia's level. All he has is Kawarimi no jutsu, and the idea of the basic Academy-level replacement technique being used to avoid Amaterasu is laughable.

Not to mention, it was stated that Itachi could have killed Sasuke with Amaterasu if he really tried, despite him having one of the most advanced substitution techniques in the series.

Amaterasu fries and rapes Neji, hard.It was never stated that amaretasu could have killed sasuke and that itachi was holding it back. Madara made a comment that itachi was holding back, which has little validity, and then sasuke flashed back to the fight, there is no eveidence saying he specifically held amaretasu back. As for normal subsitution to avoid amaretasu, we have no idea what level of substitution it would take. It has only been used a person twice and both times it has either failed to hit or failed to kill. So to say that it is the ability that will win this fight is laughable.

[Jackums]

Most of the evidence points towards it being true. Itachi obviously wasn't trying to kill Sasuke throughout that fight, as was shown at the end, when he poked Sasuke on the head, instead of trying to take his eye. We all know this. So then, what would his motive be in continuing Amaterasu? He wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. He held that Amaterasu back.

You are greatly doubting neji's abilities. What happens if he plays possum and catches sasuke with 64 palms or even worse 120 palm.

Like Fang said:
But how can he do that? Sasuke is a sharingan user after all.

Well, I don't see the point of this debate actually. We've seen too much from Sasuke and nothing too impressive from Neji. Sasuke is easily one of the strongest guys out there and Neji's only moment of glory on the otherhand is getting trapped in the water prison by Kisame (though I do understand that that was most likely for plot purposes, but still)

Neji's main strength, being a Hyuuga, remains to be taijutsu, which is a bad idea against the hax sharingan in the first place. And Sasuke has shown to be well-rounded in Ninjutsu, Genjutsu and Taijutsu. I don't see Neji getting away from Sasuke's numerous Katon and Raiton techs all too easily. And Sasuke has also shown some good tricky moves, which will help him gain an upperhand. Take a fast move like Housenka followed by Chidori Nagashi from slightly close range and Neji will be in a bit of a sweat, allowing an opening for Sasuke, for a end all move like Amaterasu. I mean.. someone tell me how Neji is getting away from Amaterasu. And as it looks, Sasuke seems to have the speed on his side in this match up.

I'd also like to point out that the Hakke Hyaku Nijūhachi Shō [one Hundred and Twenty-Eight palms technique], is in the anime only. This is the manga battledome, therefore it is irrelevant here.

And like I said before the amateratsu is not that great a technique and can easily be overcome by a replacement jutsu or shadow clone. Amateratsu is overrated and truthfully is nothing too scary.

We haven't yet seen Neji use Substitution or a Shadow clone. There's no proof, so we can't just assume he can use it.

[Smiley]

It was never stated that amaretasu could have killed sasuke and that itachi was holding it back. Madara made a comment that itachi was holding back, which has little validity, and then sasuke flashed back to the fight, there is no eveidence saying he specifically held amaretasu back.

Sasuke said: "Nonsense! I came within an inch of dying more than once".

Flashback showed Sasuke almost being killed by Tsukoyomi/Amaterasu.

Madara then said "You would have been, had Itachi been serious that's for certain".

As for the statement having little validity, it's an uncontested manga statement, and unless you show me where it's questioned or contradicted I'm going to go right ahead and say that Itachi held back.

As for normal subsitution to avoid amaretasu, we have no idea what level of substitution it would take. It has only been used a person twice and both times it has either failed to hit or failed to kill. So to say that it is the ability that will win this fight is laughable.

So you are saying genin-level shinobi can escape Amaterasu because they know Kawarimi no jutsu? http://img208.imageshack.us/img208/1917/forkshy1vy2.png

Sasuke would see through it with Sharingan and guide the flames to where Neji is, and that's assuming he even gets to use it - Sasuke won't be as generous as Itachi was and allow Neji to see how the technique works before he uses it on him.

[duckofdoom99]

Sasuke said: "Nonsense! I came within an inch of dying more than once".

Flashback showed Sasuke almost being killed by Tsukoyomi/Amaterasu.

Madara then said "You would have been, had Itachi been serious that's for certain".

As for the statement having little validity, it's an uncontested manga statement, and unless you show me where it's questioned or contradicted I'm going to go right ahead and say that Itachi held back.He says if itachi had been serious he could have killed you. Doesn't mean the two attacks were necessarily it. Sasuke made an assumption about when he thought itachi could have done so. It does not mean that those were the instances that madara was referring to.

As for the being uncontested. I think actions speak louder than words. Itachi was totally drained. If he hadn't been serious he would not have needed to go to such lengths to tire sasuke out. If he was holding back than he would have had plenty in reserve before needing to resort to susanoo to save himself from sasuke's attack and then orochimaru.

So you are saying genin-level shinobi can escape Amaterasu because they know Kawarimi no jutsu?

Sasuke would see through it with Sharingan and guide the flames to where Neji is, and that's assuming he even gets to use it - Sasuke won't be as generous as Itachi was and allow Neji to see how the technique works before he uses it on him.Because all genin level techniques are so useless? The most common technique used, shunshin is like the lowest ranked technique. Low rank doesn't make it useless nor not good against another move. It is more in the user and when it is used than rank that makes it useful.

As for seeing through it with sharingan, itachi couldn't see through sasuke's, in fact no kwarmi has been seen through with any sort of sharingan. Him knowing neji isn't there won't allow him to know where neji is. And even if he could magically know where neji just appeared sasuke has not mastered amaretasu and it would be difficult for him to control it, so re-aiming would be a problem.

[Jackums]

He says if itachi had been serious he could have killed you. Doesn't mean the two attacks were necessarily it. Sasuke made an assumption about when he thought itachi could have done so. It does not mean that those were the instances that madara was referring to.

Oh no. There's no way he was holding back when using the Mangekyou techniques; his strongest jutsu. He was going all out when he used Amaterasu. He just coincidentally failed - (sarcasm)

As for the being uncontested. I think actions speak louder than words. Itachi was totally drained. If he hadn't been serious he would not have needed to go to such lengths to tire sasuke out. If he was holding back than he would have had plenty in reserve before needing to resort to susanoo to save himself from sasuke's attack and then orochimaru.

He was tired out because of the disease that was slowly killing him. Not because he was so phased by Sasuke's attacks. Although, Sasuke gave him a hell of a battle.

As for seeing through it with sharingan, itachi couldn't see through sasuke's, in fact no kwarmi has been seen through with any sort of sharingan. Him knowing neji isn't there won't allow him to know where neji is. And even if he could magically know where neji just appeared sasuke has not mastered amaretasu and it would be difficult for him to control it, so re-aiming would be a problem.

Yet again I say: We haven't ever seen Neji use Kage Bunshin or Kawarmi jutsu to such an extent. And from what I can re-call, the only evidence allowed in this battledome, is something that has been shown in the manga. And it hasn't. ie, Neji is raped.

[Masterofdeath]

Exactly, amateratsu is completely overrated. We know Neji can use subsiturtion because all genin are taught it and he used it against the sound four.

[Jackums]

Irreguardless. Sasuke is one of the narutoverse geniuses. He's not going to blindly use his greatest technique with the risk that it might be a substitute. Such assumptions are ridiculous.

Another factor in Sasuke's favour, is the fact that he has seen Neji's techniques, yet Neji has never seen any of Sasuke's techhniques since he left Konoha. Meaning, he has no knowledge of Sasuke's Mangekyou sharingan, New chidori techs [including chidori nagashi], Kusanagi, or his newfound speed. Just the fact that Neji doesn't know of Chidori Nagashi is enough for Sasuke to win. Neji attempts a gentle fist attack- BAM! Paralyzed. Seconds later Neji gets majorly pwned by Kusanagi. Done.

I'm finding these rebuttals weak, and pathetic. A metaphor I could use here is: Picking grapes from a bear tree. There is no evidence to prove Neji could even come close to winning this. I suggest you take note of one of the rules in the battledome- Don't continue arguing against un-winnable debates. Such persistence will most likely lead to mod involvment. Drop it, or continue with that risk.

[Masterofdeath]

Such assumptions about Neji are foolish too. Don't forget Neji is both a genious and a prodigy. He wouldn't just lay down and be dismantled. Not really, if Neji uses gentle fist than just the slightest touch would put Sasuke down, at least for enough time for Neji to recover. Also, if Sasuke uses chidori Nagashi then Neji has a person that is a non moving target (at least for a second) which gives him the alotted time to get his hands on Sasuke. And, I will continue with that risk thank you very much.

[duckofdoom99]

Oh no. There's no way he was holding back when using the Mangekyou techniques; his strongest jutsu. He was going all out when he used Amaterasu. He just coincidentally failed - (sarcasm)So every time a high level attack misses it is the user holding back? Good to note. That means kakashi held back against deidara when he missed with kamui twice, orochimaru held back that last time against itachi as his attacked missed, etc... Clearly this isn't the case. It missing is not a guarantee of itachi holding back. The attack has only ever hit somebody once out of the 4 times it has been used, and the time it hit it did little.

He was tired out because of the disease that was slowly killing him. Not because he was so phased by Sasuke's attacks. Although, Sasuke gave him a hell of a battle.The disease was a factor, but if it was as easy as madara implies then he would have still not needed to go anywhere near as far as he had against him.

Yet again I say: We haven't ever seen Neji use Kage Bunshin or Kawarmi jutsu to such an extent. And from what I can re-call, the only evidence allowed in this battledome, is something that has been shown in the manga. And it hasn't. ie, Neji is raped.He has it. He can use it. I'm really not seeing the "extent" point. We have never seen sasuke use amaretasu where he can even follow an opponent. So he can't. If neji moves he misses. We haven't seen him hit an opponent that moves so he can't. This is the same logic as your point, and clearly is not good.

Another factor in Sasuke's favour, is the fact that he has seen Neji's techniques, yet Neji has never seen any of Sasuke's techhniques since he left Konoha. Meaning, he has no knowledge of Sasuke's Mangekyou sharingan, New chidori techs [including chidori nagashi], Kusanagi, or his newfound speed. Just the fact that Neji doesn't know of Chidori Nagashi is enough for Sasuke to win. Neji attempts a gentle fist attack- BAM! Paralyzed. Seconds later Neji gets majorly pwned by Kusanagi. Done.Actually sasuke has seen none of neji's techniques. During neji's fight with hinata he was recovering from kakashi's sealing of the curse seal. During his battle with naruto he was training with kakashi to use chidori. During his battle with kidomarfu he was in a box. During neji's battle with himself he was nowhere near. He has seen 0 of neji's techniques. Neji however, has seen chidori once against gaara. So he knows more about sasuke than sasuke knows about him.

I'm finding these rebuttals weak, and pathetic. A metaphor I could use here is: Picking grapes from a bear tree. There is no evidence to prove Neji could even come close to winning this. I suggest you take note of one of the rules in the battledome- Don't continue arguing against un-winnable debates. Such persistence will most likely lead to mod involvment. Drop it, or continue with that risk.I will continue with this "risk" because it is nowhere near as un-winnable as you say it is. Amaretasu has been avoided. Neji has a technique to do so. Kirin, can't be used unless there are thunderstroms. Kaiten will stop most other attacks. Neji has a very good chance of winning.

[vane]

@duckofdoom99: Itachi was holding back because he never planned to win in the first place. His plan was to lose and make it as convincing as possible. No he didnt quite take it easy on Sasuke as he was testing him at the same time. But there was a few point in the battle that Itachi obviously held back on. Especially the end when he had Susanoo out and was walking towards Sasuke.
Also we seen Itachi pull back when he hit Sasuke with Amaterasu. That means he held back. But he was tired because he used all those high level techniques with massive chakra consumption to make the fight as realistic as possible.


Such assumptions about Neji are foolish too. Don't forget Neji is both a genious and a prodigy. He wouldn't just lay down and be dismantled. Not really, if Neji uses gentle fist than just the slightest touch would put Sasuke down, at least for enough time for Neji to recover. Also, if Sasuke uses chidori Nagashi then Neji has a person that is a non moving target (at least for a second) which gives him the alotted time to get his hands on Sasuke. And, I will continue with that risk thank you very much.


:facepalm: Gah what part of Chidori Nagashi paralyzing Neji dont you understand. Neji comes in to hit Sasuke with gentle fist and as soon as he goes to hit Sasuke, Sasuke uses CN and that at least restricts the movements of Neji's arms for a short period.

But I think its funny how people are arguing the fact that Byakugan cant be fooled by shadow clone. Yes Sharingan can be fooled also but here is my point again on the Byakugan and shadow clones

The Byakugan can not tell the difference between a real shadow clone and the actual user. Each shadow clone is an exact copy of the user. Meaning all organs, chakra points, and everything else thats on the inside. Meaning that neither can tell the difference. Now the only way that either can tell that there are even shadow clones is because the chakra of the user is split by however many shadow clones are produced. Meaning when a Byakugan user looks at the clone or even the real one he/she see's that it has far less chakra than before (since it has been split and givn to the other copies). But we have seen Neji get fooled (badly) by shadow clones and even some Sharigan user.

But everyones defense on Neji is really only his gentle fist and rotation (any form of rotation). Now gentle fist is countered by CN and rotation can only be used just so many times. And if he uses the big rotation (as you can see I dont try and remember names so I describe them) then that means cant use as many of rotations since it takes more chakra to use a bigger rotation.

[Masterofdeath]

Maybe so... I am not convinced enough to say Sasuke wins, but I am not sure about Neji winning either. I believe it all comes down to a few situations.

[duckofdoom99]

@duckofdoom99: Itachi was holding back because he never planned to win in the first place. His plan was to lose and make it as convincing as possible. No he didnt quite take it easy on Sasuke as he was testing him at the same time. But there was a few point in the battle that Itachi obviously held back on. Especially the end when he had Susanoo out and was walking towards Sasuke.
Also we seen Itachi pull back when he hit Sasuke with Amaterasu. That means he held back. But he was tired because he used all those high level techniques with massive chakra consumption to make the fight as realistic as possible.
When he pulls the fire back from sasuke. He does it for the eye's or if you want to see it to protect him. However, it wasn't even the real sasuke. The sasuke he saves from amaretasu is sasuke's technique. Even though itachi may have held amaretasu back from destroying sasuke it wasn't even the real one. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/07/ There is where he pulls back the flames.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/09/ And that is sasuke escaping it without help from itachi. Even though itachi would have saved sasuke, sasuke had already escaped it. So holding it back from killing him is really an overstatement. Sasuke avoided it and itachi saved a clone/substitution or whatever it was that sasuke did exactly.

[Jackums]

So every time a high level attack misses it is the user holding back? Good to note. That means kakashi held back against deidara when he missed with kamui twice, orochimaru held back that last time against itachi as his attacked missed, etc... Clearly this isn't the case. It missing is not a guarantee of itachi holding back. The attack has only ever hit somebody once out of the 4 times it has been used, and the time it hit it did little.

It wasn't a generalisation. It was referring to this situation only. If Itachi was serious, he would've obliterated the Sasuke clone with that Amaterasu. Don't use the "he was exhausted/weak" excuse. He used Susanoo soon after. He obviously had enough chakra to continue his attack with Amaterasu.

The disease was a factor, but if it was as easy as madara implies then he would have still not needed to go anywhere near as far as he had against him.

Whoever said it was easy? He was holding back. Not necessarily meaning it was a breeze.

He has it. He can use it. I'm really not seeing the "extent" point. We have never seen sasuke use amaretasu where he can even follow an opponent. So he can't. If neji moves he misses. We haven't seen him hit an opponent that moves so he can't. This is the same logic as your point, and clearly is not good.

Neji doesn't have Kage Bunshin no jutsu, as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong.
+ Yes, I see your point. But by proving that wrong, you're admitting Sasuke can potentially hit a moving target with Amaterasu?

Actually sasuke has seen none of neji's techniques. During neji's fight with hinata he was recovering from kakashi's sealing of the curse seal. During his battle with naruto he was training with kakashi to use chidori. During his battle with kidomarfu he was in a box. During neji's battle with himself he was nowhere near. He has seen 0 of neji's techniques. Neji however, has seen chidori once against gaara. So he knows more about sasuke than sasuke knows about him.

I said Neji has never seen any of Sasuke's techniques since he left Konoha. So no, incorrect. They're at least matched in that area.

I will continue with this "risk" because it is nowhere near as un-winnable as you say it is. Amaretasu has been avoided. Neji has a technique to do so. Kirin, can't be used unless there are thunderstroms. Kaiten will stop most other attacks. Neji has a very good chance of winning.

I lol'd at this.

Such assumptions about Neji are foolish too. Don't forget Neji is both a genious and a prodigy. He wouldn't just lay down and be dismantled. Not really, if Neji uses gentle fist than just the slightest touch would put Sasuke down, at least for enough time for Neji to recover. Also, if Sasuke uses chidori Nagashi then Neji has a person that is a non moving target (at least for a second) which gives him the alotted time to get his hands on Sasuke. And, I will continue with that risk thank you very much.

Chidori Nagashi = Paralysis.

What don't you get about that? Once Neji attempts gentle fist and Sasuke uses CN, he's paralyzed. Sasuke + His speed + Temporary Paralysis = Kusanagi in Neji's chest. Simple.

[X-Drake]

If Neji can hit sasuke first then its over. The whole team gai is speedy. Becuase when they are moving they have to keep up wid Lee and Gai training. So if Neji blocks of one point, sasuke is messed up then the rest will come.

[Smiley]

He says if itachi had been serious he could have killed you. Doesn't mean the two attacks were necessarily it. Sasuke made an assumption about when he thought itachi could have done so. It does not mean that those were the instances that madara was referring to.

Sasuke said that he was almost killed by Itachi more than once. The only times he was almost killed in their fight was when Itachi used Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu on him. The panels even showed Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu when Sasuke said this. Madara replied by saying that he would have been, had Itachi been serious. He even said that Itachi planned out all the details of the fight beforehand, and took Sasuke's counter-measures into account.

Please show me where this is questioned or contradicted, or you're not making a valid argument. It's an uncontested, canon statement.

As for the being uncontested. I think actions speak louder than words. Itachi was totally drained. If he hadn't been serious he would not have needed to go to such lengths to tire sasuke out. If he was holding back than he would have had plenty in reserve before needing to resort to susanoo to save himself from sasuke's attack and then orochimaru.

Opinionated stuff. I'm not going to argue over this since we have a canon statement stating otherwise.

Because all genin level techniques are so useless? The most common technique used, shunshin is like the lowest ranked technique. Low rank doesn't make it useless nor not good against another move. It is more in the user and when it is used than rank that makes it useful.

I didn't say it was useless, but it simply won't help against a technique of Amaterasu's level. Look at this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/

Sasuke simply focused his eye on Madara's shoulder, and the flames appeared there. Neji can't make Kawarimis faster than Sasuke can look at him, nor can he do it faster than Madara can teleport. Neji doesn't know about Amaterasu, nor does he know about how the technique works. He is toast. Literally.

As for seeing through it with sharingan, itachi couldn't see through sasuke's

Itachi said that Snake Bulimia was harder to detect, but he did not say it was impossible. This means that lower-level replacements techniques are easier to detect. Now that we know that he planned out all the details of the fight beforehand, and that he could have killed Sasuke with Amaterasu if he really tried, I think it's safe to say that he did notice that Sasuke shed his skin and moved underground. But either way, all Neji has is Academy-level Kawarimi, which Sasuke's Sharingan can see through.

in fact no kwarmi has been seen through with any sort of sharingan.

We know Sharingan sees chakra, so he will be able to tell the difference between a transformed log and Neji.

Him knowing neji isn't there won't allow him to know where neji is. And even if he could magically know where neji just appeared

Kawarimi doesn't magically allow the user to disappear and reappear at a different point in space. It's not a time/space jutsu. You replace yourself with a log or something and then simply have to move to a different location, but hope that your opponent won't notice this. Since Sasuke has Sharingan he will be able to detect Neji's movement and know where he is.

sasuke has not mastered amaretasu and it would be difficult for him to control it, so re-aiming would be a probl


Why? All he has to do is look where he wants to guide the flames. This was stated. You don't need to master the technique to be able to do this.

[Masterofdeath]

What! Sasuke does not kill Neji by looking at him... anyway, chidori nagashi does not matter because as I said Neji can also hit him from farther away and he is more likely to attack from farther away to see what Sasuke has in his arsenal because that is what most smart/elite shinobi tend to do except for Naruto. And, flames of amateratsu did not just appear on Madara's shoulders and never have in any other case. They don't appear where the user is looking, but instead they travel to where the user is... also in the case of sasuke and madara the amateratsu was programmed to attack madara the instant Sasuke saw him because it was Itachi's plan to kill Madara. It looked as if it appeared there almost instantly because they were standing practically on top of each other (they were less than 5 meters apart).

[Smiley]

What! Sasuke does not kill Neji by looking at him... anyway, chidori nagashi does not matter because as I said Neji can also hit him from farther away and he is more likely to attack from farther away to see what Sasuke has in his arsenal because that is what most smart/elite shinobi tend to do except for Naruto. And, flames of amateratsu did not just appear on Madara's shoulders and never have in any other case. They don't appear where the user is looking, but instead they travel to where the user is... also in the case of sasuke and madara the amateratsu was programmed to attack madara the instant Sasuke saw him because it was Itachi's plan to kill Madara. It looked as if it appeared there almost instantly because they were standing practically on top of each other (they were less than 5 meters apart).

Zetsu said that the flames "spring up from the point the user focuses on", which implies that they do not travel to the point...but rather, appear on it.

And we've seen them form inside of Sasuke's Katon technique as well:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/16-17/

(mid panel on the right)

The only time we've seen them chase the target was when Itachi used it on Sasuke, and that's because he started running an instant before Itachi focused on him. The way I see it, they form on an initial focus, and from that point the user can make them spread to wherever he focuses on(like Itachi did against Sasuke).

[Masterofdeath]

Ok then explain why the flames didn't just appear on the toads skin? Why didn't the flames just appear when battleing killer bee? Why... simple because they don't just instantly appear, but the cases with amateratsu forming within the flames is because it had already been formulated while the jutsu was being created.

[Smiley]

Ok then explain why the flames didn't just appear on the toads skin?

If you are talking about Jiraiya's technique, we've never seen the actual execution of the flames that day, so we can't tell what happened. All we saw is its leftovers, and a hole in the wall when Jiraiya found out that Itachi and Kisame had escaped later.

Why didn't the flames just appear when battleing killer bee?

They did appear on him - on his tentacles, to be exact =/

He was waving them around his face, and when Sasuke focused his eye on him, they just appeared to be in his field of vision.

Why... simple because they don't just instantly appear, but the cases with amateratsu forming within the flames is because it had already been formulated while the jutsu was being created.

What had already been formulated? I'm not exactly sure what you meant to say here.

The thing is, the only time we've seen the flames moving was when Itachi used them on Sasuke - and Zetsu explained that the user can continue guiding the flames from the point they initially focus on, so there's no contradiction there, since Sasuke started running an instant before Itachi focused on him. In all other instances, we've seen the flames directly appearing on their target.

[Masterofdeath]

Actually, I just went back and sasuke was moving when Itachi used amateratsu. He was using a fire technique (too lazy to look up the name) and the Itachi used the amateratsu. Sasuke started moving after Itachi unleashed amateratsu.

[taiyana_chan]

Ok then explain why the flames didn't just appear on the toads skin? Why didn't the flames just appear when battleing killer bee? Why... simple because they don't just instantly appear, but the cases with Amaterasu forming within the flames is because it had already been formulated while the jutsu was being created. Actually, they were.

[Smiley]

Actually, I just went back and sasuke was moving when Itachi used amateratsu. He was using a fire technique (too lazy to look up the name) and the Itachi used the amateratsu. Sasuke started moving after Itachi unleashed amateratsu.

That was his initial Amaterasu. He used Amaterasu twice in that fight. The first one was used to burn through Sasuke's Katon technique, and the second one was used directly on Sasuke. Sasuke even stated it was his "second" Amaterasu:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/14/

Now look at this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/

(two last panels on that page)

This is the point Itachi executes his second Amaterasu. An instant before he focuses his eye on Sasuke - Sasuke starts running. Then, the flames continue chasing Sasuke around - and that goes along with Zetsu's statement that the user can guide the flames after they had been summoned.

[Masterofdeath]

Ok you got me there, but like I said before this only improves the odds of a jutsu like this being overcome by a replacement jutsu.

[Smiley]

Ok you got me there, but like I said before this only improves the odds of a jutsu like this being overcome by a replacement jutsu.

How does it? Neji doesn't know about the technique - Itachi let Sasuke see how the jutsu works before he used it on him - that's why he knew that he needed to act before Itachi focused on him again.

And even if he knew about the tech, Sharingan can see through normal-level replacements, so I'm not sure how it would help him.

[Masterofdeath]

Neji doesn't know about the technique and Sasuke doesn't know anything about Neji's techniques. Neji being a smart and tactical shinobi will obviously be playing it safe by staying on the move and using med-long range jutsu. With him constantly being on the move sasuke will have no choice but to chase him with the amateratsu if he attempts to use it giving Neji the time needed to either avoid it all together until it hits something else or he would be able to use a replacement jutsu. Also, sharingan does not allow you to see through replacements... kakashi, sasuke, and itachi have all been fooled by replacement jutsu's. Show me one time the SHARINGAN allowed the user to see through a replacement or clone.

[Smiley]

Neji doesn't know about the technique and Sasuke doesn't know anything about Neji's techniques. Neji being a smart and tactical shinobi will obviously be playing it safe by staying on the move and using med-long range jutsu. With him constantly being on the move sasuke will have no choice but to chase him with the amateratsu if he attempts to use it giving Neji the time needed to either avoid it all together until it hits something else or he would be able to use a replacement jutsu.


What mid-ranged jutsu has Neji shown? Hakke Kuushou is the only one that I recall, and all it does it push an opponent away a little so I honestly can't see how it would help him in this fight.

As for moving around, Neji - like all of Hyuuga is a stationary fighter for the most part and his fighting style doesn't involve much movement - and he usually relies on Kaiten for deflecting opponent's techniques (as seen in his fight with Kidomaru). He would be quite an easy target for Amaterasu flames.

And also, just being on the move won't help - even if Neji decides to act completely out of character today for some reason - Sharingan users can predict their opponent's movements before they actually happen. As a matter of fact, they see shadow images of their opponent's incoming movement:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/230/08/

Sasuke would see the shadow images of where Neji is about to move next - and simply focus his eye there.


Also, sharingan does not allow you to see through replacements... kakashi, sasuke, and itachi have all been fooled by replacement jutsu's. Show me one time the SHARINGAN allowed the user to see through a replacement or clone.

They've never been fooled by a basic replacement. I can show you a scan of Sharingan seeing through basic Bunshin no Jutsu (Kage Bunshin is different, but Neji has never been shown using it). Sharingan sees chakra, so Sasuke would be able to the tell the difference between a transformed log and the real Neji - he won't be fooled by a basic replacement. Itachi even stated that Orochimaru's Snake Bulimia - one of the most advanced replacement techniques we've seen thus far in the manga was "very hard to detect" (he never said it was impossible). This implies that lower level replacements are easy to detect. We later even learned that he could have killed him with Amaterasu if he had really tried, despite him having like, the most advanced replacement technique in the series. I honestly can't see how basic Kawarimi no jutsu can be used to evade Amaterasu.

[Masterofdeath]

And, I also don't see how Sasuke lives if Neji even remotely grazes him with the gentle fist.

[Smiley]

And, I also don't see how Sasuke lives if Neji even remotely grazes him with the gentle fist.

For that he would need to get in range with him, and if he did, Sasuke could easily avoid being hit using Sharingan's enhanced perception/prediction abilities (I provided a link in my last post).

Close combat against Sasuke is also pretty dangerous - while Neji is trying to hit him with Jyuuken, Sasuke could just stun him with Chidori Nagashi.

Basically saying, whatever range Neji chooses to fight Sasuke in, he is screwed.

[D.I.Y Death]

Jesus how are people arguing for Neji against Sasuke? Sasuke has the MS including Ameterasu and some form of MS genjutsu. Sasuke also has Kirin and a lot of different variants of the chidori. Sasuke also has a grass cutter sword that cannot be blocked with Chidori running through it. Just to top things off Sasuke can also oral rebirth himself.
Neji's gentle fist is totally nullified with the sharingan.
Neji's techniques with the exception of kaiten and the mid ranged thrust thing all rely on melee range which makes them totally ineffective.

[duckofdoom99]

It wasn't a generalisation. It was referring to this situation only. If Itachi was serious, he would've obliterated the Sasuke clone with that Amaterasu. Don't use the "he was exhausted/weak" excuse. He used Susanoo soon after. He obviously had enough chakra to continue his attack with Amaterasu.
Whoever said it was easy? He was holding back. Not necessarily meaning it was a breeze. These two quotes are quite contradictory. The first you say if he tried itachi will obliterate sasuke and then that it would not be a breeze. As for enough chakra to continue amaretasu it doesn't matter. He was fooled by sasuke's jutsu. I'm going to quote myself. When he pulls the fire back from sasuke. He does it for the eye's or if you want to see it to protect him. However, it wasn't even the real sasuke. The sasuke he saves from amaretasu is sasuke's technique. Even though itachi may have held amaretasu back from destroying sasuke it wasn't even the real one. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/07/ There is where he pulls back the flames.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/09/ And that is sasuke escaping it without help from itachi. Even though itachi would have saved sasuke, sasuke had already escaped it. So holding it back from killing him is really an overstatement. Sasuke avoided it and itachi saved a clone/substitution or whatever it was that sasuke did exactly.

Neji doesn't have Kage Bunshin no jutsu, as far as I know. Correct me if I'm wrong.
+ Yes, I see your point. But by proving that wrong, you're admitting Sasuke can potentially hit a moving target with Amaterasu?He does have kwarmi which works on the same principle as sasuk'es technique. He has much less control over amaretasu so movement will make it difficult. There is potential, but even with itachi using it sasuke out ran amaretasu for several panels. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/04/ http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/06/ It takes 2 pages from when it starts to when it hits. This is plenty of time to do some kind of avoidance technique. Especially against a person with less experience.

Sasuke said that he was almost killed by Itachi more than once. The only times he was almost killed in their fight was when Itachi used Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu on him. The panels even showed Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu when Sasuke said this. Madara replied by saying that he would have been, had Itachi been serious. He even said that Itachi planned out all the details of the fight beforehand, and took Sasuke's counter-measures into account.

Please show me where this is questioned or contradicted, or you're not making a valid argument. It's an uncontested, canon statement.
It is contested by actions of the characters. Madara says itachi can walk all over sasuke and yet itachi was pushed to the limit and tricked by sasuke. If he could stomp sasuke like madara suggests then he would have not need such great lenghts to tire sasuke. The panels show where sasuke thought this may have occurred not where it did occur. Just like when naruto gets caught in genjutsu with the itachi clone and he wonders when it happened. He makes guesses but he is not 100% sure.

I didn't say it was useless, but it simply won't help against a technique of Amaterasu's level. Look at this:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/

Sasuke simply focused his eye on Madara's shoulder, and the flames appeared there. Neji can't make Kawarimis faster than Sasuke can look at him, nor can he do it faster than Madara can teleport. Neji doesn't know about Amaterasu, nor does he know about how the technique works. He is toast. Literally.Look at my previous pages where it takes 2 whole pages for amartasu to go from itachi to sasuke.

Itachi said that Snake Bulimia was harder to detect, but he did not say it was impossible. This means that lower-level replacements techniques are easier to detect. Now that we know that he planned out all the details of the fight beforehand, and that he could have killed Sasuke with Amaterasu if he really tried, I think it's safe to say that he did notice that Sasuke shed his skin and moved underground. But either way, all Neji has is Academy-level Kawarimi, which Sasuke's Sharingan can see through.Where does itachi notice it isn't sasuke? He goes to "take" the eyes. He stop amaretasu from eating him. If he knew it wasn't sasuke he would have finished destroying it and not spared it.

We know Sharingan sees chakra, so he will be able to tell the difference between a transformed log and Neji. telling the difference and knowing where neji is are 2 very different things. I have never said he won't know the difference, but he won't know where neji is.

Kawarimi doesn't magically allow the user to disappear and reappear at a different point in space. It's not a time/space jutsu. You replace yourself with a log or something and then simply have to move to a different location, but hope that your opponent won't notice this. Since Sasuke has Sharingan he will be able to detect Neji's movement and know where he is.Sharingan users miss replacements fairly often. Kakashi misses itachi's in konoha, itachi misses sasuke's, there are several others but I dont feel like finding them, these two should be enough to show that they miss substitutions. Kwarmi is a quick shunshin in which you replace yourself with an object. So while sasuke will know he missed neji he has no idea where neji is now.

Why? All he has to do is look where he wants to guide the flames. This was stated. You don't need to master the technique to be able to do this.He had trouble controling against bee. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/04/ He barely touches bee before he is bleeding so badly that he can't keep his eye open to keep it moving. So while he may just need to look he has shown inability to do so.

[Jackums]

This is getting ridiculous, and I'm going to attempt to wrap it up with a summary:

1. Sasuke has Kusanagi, which can cut through anything when electricity is ran through it. This is shown when Sasuke cuts through a solid kunai in his battle with Team Kakashi. Neji won't be able to defend against any such attacks- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/308/07/

Kusanagi is also quite powerful in general. This is shown in Oro's battle with the 3rd when Enma is on Kongou form. He says, "Even in Kongou form, the blade of Kusanagi is gonna be sore man"- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/120/12/

2. Sasuke beats Neji in speed, or at least matches him. Neji may be fast and train with Lee, but so does TenTen. And she's one of the narutoverse's slow characters. Also, when Sasuke encountered Team Kakashi, Yamato said Sasuke was fast. So fast that they barely had time to react to Sasuke's movements at first- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/14/

For Neji to get a fatal blow on Sasuke would be quite the problem. Not only because of Chidori Nagashi, but also because of his speed. Neji is accurate. But not enough to hit a fatal spot on someone with Sasuke's agility.

3. Neji knows nothing of Sasuke's new techniques. This will pose an extremely large threat to Neji. Being caught in Chidori Nagashi even once, will be the end of Neji. There's also Amaterasu, which is even more dangerous. The fact that Neji has no knowledge of this will be the end of him. There's no way he can predict it. Sasuke only has to look at him, and the flames will engulf him within seconds. So unless Neji is constantly moving throughout the whole entire battle, he's gone. Neji doesn't know Kage Bunshin no jutsu. Yes he knows Kwarmi, but Sasuke will easily tell that it's not him. Sharingan sees chakra. There's not going to be any chakra in a lump of wood.
+ I think Smiley has done the job of proving that Amaterasu instantly forms on the point of sight that the MS user is looking at. Just to clarify: Sasuke vs Killer Bee- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/02-03/

Zetsu also explained this- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/
Like Smiley explained, Neji isn't going to be able to move or perform a Kwarmi jutsu faster than Sasuke can look at him. He's also got no way of predicting Amaterasu, as he's never seen it.

4. Sasuke has the capabilites of lasting after using Amaterasu. In his battle with Killer Bee, he'd used some MS genjutsu [possibly Tsukoyomi] before he performed Ama. He was also going through the healing process after his intense battle with Itachi. As far as we have been shown, he was sent to capture Killer Bee within two days of the battle. Such things don't heal overnight. And we know that the genjutsu Sasuke used was an MS technique, as right after using it he placed his hand over his eye and began panting. Average genjutsu doesn't do that. And any Mangekyou technique is going to be draining. Hence the reason Sasuke couldn't last long after using Amaterasu later in the battle- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/

5. Genjutsu: Neji has no defense against genjutsu of Sasuke's level. Yes, he can see chakra with his Byakugan. Therefore he will be aware he's trapped in a genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he can escape it. He'll need to exert large amounts of chakra to escape Sasuke's MS genjutsu which he used in the battle against Killer Bee [Look at the above link]. We already know Sasuke is talented in the ways of genjutsu, as shown in multiple chapters. Here are some-
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/408/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/

6. Sharingan also predicts the opponent's movements before they come into motion. Neji doesn't have this. Going up against Sasuke in a taijutsu battle would be stupid, even for Neji. Here's a link [Thanks go to Smiley]- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/230/08/

These two quotes are quite contradictory. The first you say if he tried itachi will obliterate sasuke and then that it would not be a breeze. As for enough chakra to continue amaretasu it doesn't matter. He was fooled by sasuke's jutsu. I'm going to quote myself.

Do I have to quote myself? I said: "If Itachi was serious, he would've obliterated the Sasuke clone with that Amaterasu". I was being specific about that single attack. Not the entire battle. And when I said "Not necessarily meaning it was a breeze", then I was speaking about the whole battle in general.

He does have kwarmi which works on the same principle as sasuk'es technique. He has much less control over amaretasu so movement will make it difficult. There is potential, but even with itachi using it sasuke out ran amaretasu for several panels. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/04/ http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/06/ It takes 2 pages from when it starts to when it hits. This is plenty of time to do some kind of avoidance technique. Especially against a person with less experience.

The panels and pages don't depict the time. It was showing Sasuke attemting to run from Amaterasu. The only reason he managed to temporarily do so, is because he began running an instant before Itachi focused the Amaterasu on him.

He had trouble controling against bee. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/04/ He barely touches bee before he is bleeding so badly that he can't keep his eye open to keep it moving. So while he may just need to look he has shown inability to do so.

He'd previously used a Mangekyou Sharingan genjutsu earlier. Any genjutsu technique is draining, no matter what it is. And he didn't have to keep the flames on Bee. Once Ama has been started, the flames don't stop, irrequardless of the fact that you might have your eyes closed. Read the next few pages and you'll notice the flame was still all over 8-tails. You think this will be any different for Neji?- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/

[0ba]

Poor Neji. I wonder how he's going to cope against the Kusanagi and Chidori Nagashi and Sasuke's speed if he decides to go close range, or if he intends to use only Air palm from afar. This is too easy. Sasuke definitely. I even feel he'd still win without the MS.

[vane]

These two quotes are quite contradictory. The first you say if he tried itachi will obliterate sasuke and then that it would not be a breeze. As for enough chakra to continue amaretasu it doesn't matter. He was fooled by sasuke's jutsu. I'm going to quote myself.

It is contested by actions of the characters. Madara says itachi can walk all over sasuke and yet itachi was pushed to the limit and tricked by sasuke. If he could stomp sasuke like madara suggests then he would have not need such great lenghts to tire sasuke. The panels show where sasuke thought this may have occurred not where it did occur. Just like when naruto gets caught in genjutsu with the itachi clone and he wonders when it happened. He makes guesses but he is not 100% sure.

I just want to comment on this.

It could have been a breeze for Itachi had he been serious. The reason he was so worn out which your not realising is because every MS techinique he has takes massive chakra consumption. Like a Tsuukiyomi, 2 Amaterasu's, and Susanoo. Yes I know there was more but thats just what Im recalling off the top of my head.
Itachi plotted the whole fight out to look as realistic as possible. So he basically drained himself on purpose using all those techniques at the point in the fight that he did. He could have easily from the begining used Amaterasu and finished Sasuke early on. But no he waited and even used it on Sasuke's own fire for him to get a glance at how it works.

All Im saying is that yes he was worn out but he was worn out because he intentionally spent massive amounts of chakra.



As far as Neji and Sasuke goes :facepalm: Neji's fight of his life on the show so far was between him and hid clone and a 30% Kisame v.v Those fights were no where near as epic and as well played out as any fight that Sasuke has been in. Sasuke is to versatile. Not to mention a pretty decent supply of chakra himself.
Neji's gentle fist is countered by CN. Kaiten cant be used over and over and over it has its limits at some point. And........... what else does Neji have thats gonna be effective. Nothing.

[duckofdoom99]

I just want to comment on this.

It could have been a breeze for Itachi had he been serious. The reason he was so worn out which your not realising is because every MS techinique he has takes massive chakra consumption. Like a Tsuukiyomi, 2 Amaterasu's, and Susanoo. Yes I know there was more but thats just what Im recalling off the top of my head.
Itachi plotted the whole fight out to look as realistic as possible. So he basically drained himself on purpose using all those techniques at the point in the fight that he did. He could have easily from the begining used Amaterasu and finished Sasuke early on. But no he waited and even used it on Sasuke's own fire for him to get a glance at how it works.

All Im saying is that yes he was worn out but he was worn out because he intentionally spent massive amounts of chakra.Ture, but at the same time sasuke beat both of itachi's amaretasu's. He stopped the first one where itachi couldn't use it after eating sasuk'es fire with it. And then he dodged the second one. Itachi clearly didn't know he had because he saves the fake sasuke. So even though itachi was holding back I don't think it was to the measure that madara implies it was. He may have released him from tsyukomi, but he handled the amaretasu's fine. Also, sasuke only knows of itachi tsyukomi, he was unconscious when he used amaretasu so itachi could have easily tired sasuke out like he wanted and then used susanoo ti kill himself without either amaretasu. Also, the amaretasu was a completely necessary attack during their fire on fire battle when sasuke's overpowered itachi's.

As far as Neji and Sasuke goes Neji's fight of his life on the show so far was between him and hid clone and a 30% Kisame Those fights were no where near as epic and as well played out as any fight that Sasuke has been in. Sasuke is to versatile. Not to mention a pretty decent supply of chakra himself.
Neji's gentle fist is countered by CN. Kaiten cant be used over and over and over it has its limits at some point. And........... what else does Neji have thats gonna be effective. Nothing.I disagree I think it was the fight with the clone of himself we saw more of it. With kisame he didn't do anything. But yes we haven't seen much of neji though I think he probably developed stuff during the skip there is really no evidence. Though we have seen that his byakugan can see further than before and that his kaiten now makes craters in the ground. This credits the theory that he developed something new.

Do I have to quote myself? I said: "If Itachi was serious, he would've obliterated the Sasuke clone with that Amaterasu". I was being specific about that single attack. Not the entire battle. And when I said "Not necessarily meaning it was a breeze", then I was speaking about the whole battle in general.
Itachi was tricked by sasuke's clone. He thought it was real which is why he saved it. If he knew it was fake he would not have needed to keep it alive. He also had his fire overpowered. It wasn't a breeze.

The panels and pages don't depict the time. It was showing Sasuke attemting to run from Amaterasu. The only reason he managed to temporarily do so, is because he began running an instant before Itachi focused the Amaterasu on him.He is standing still right there. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/02/ then he starts to move at the same time as amaretasu http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/ then 3 pages later http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/06/ it finally catches him. While it doesn't depict time the fact that it takes more than one page it shows that sasuke out ran and it is not instantaneous.

He'd previously used a Mangekyou Sharingan genjutsu earlier. Any genjutsu technique is draining, no matter what it is. And he didn't have to keep the flames on Bee. Once Ama has been started, the flames don't stop, irrequardless of the fact that you might have your eyes closed. Read the next few pages and you'll notice the flame was still all over 8-tails. You think this will be any different for Neji?- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/The flames don't stop, but his eye is closed. They no longer move. He can't control it by looking with a closed eye. That is the point.

1. Sasuke has Kusanagi, which can cut through anything when electricity is ran through it. This is shown when Sasuke cuts through a solid kunai in his battle with Team Kakashi. Neji won't be able to defend against any such attacks- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/308/07/Kaiten has also stopped any attack against it.

2. Sasuke beats Neji in speed, or at least matches him. Neji may be fast and train with Lee, but so does TenTen. And she's one of the narutoverse's slow characters. Also, when Sasuke encountered Team Kakashi, Yamato said Sasuke was fast. So fast that they barely had time to react to Sasuke's movements at first- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/307/14/

For Neji to get a fatal blow on Sasuke would be quite the problem. Not only because of Chidori Nagashi, but also because of his speed. Neji is accurate. But not enough to hit a fatal spot on someone with Sasuke's agility.In two of sasuke's fights since team kakashi he has used very few abilities, i think 5 in both fights (itachi and diedara) and was out of chakra and tired. 5 attacks and then he will be unable to do anything. Then against killer bee he used 3 attacks and to do so had to be healed and given chakra from juugo. He tires out very quickly all neji needs to do is avoid 3-5 attacks and then he wins.

3. Neji knows nothing of Sasuke's new techniques. This will pose an extremely large threat to Neji. Being caught in Chidori Nagashi even once, will be the end of Neji. There's also Amaterasu, which is even more dangerous. The fact that Neji has no knowledge of this will be the end of him. There's no way he can predict it. Sasuke only has to look at him, and the flames will engulf him within seconds. So unless Neji is constantly moving throughout the whole entire battle, he's gone. Neji doesn't know Kage Bunshin no jutsu. Yes he knows Kwarmi, but Sasuke will easily tell that it's not him. Sharingan sees chakra. There's not going to be any chakra in a lump of wood.
+ I think Smiley has done the job of proving that Amaterasu instantly forms on the point of sight that the MS user is looking at. Just to clarify: Sasuke vs Killer Bee- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/02-03/I think I have done the job of proving it isn't instant. Sasuke not only out runs it for 2 pages, he is also able to use his jutsu to get out of it. Neji will see fire and then gtfo of there.


Zetsu also explained this- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/
Like Smiley explained, Neji isn't going to be able to move or perform a Kwarmi jutsu faster than Sasuke can look at him. He's also got no way of predicting Amaterasu, as he's never seen it.Sasuke did, so I give neji a good chance to do so as well.

4. Sasuke has the capabilites of lasting after using Amaterasu. In his battle with Killer Bee, he'd used some MS genjutsu [possibly Tsukoyomi] before he performed Ama. He was also going through the healing process after his intense battle with Itachi. As far as we have been shown, he was sent to capture Killer Bee within two days of the battle. Such things don't heal overnight. And we know that the genjutsu Sasuke used was an MS technique, as right after using it he placed his hand over his eye and began panting. Average genjutsu doesn't do that. And any Mangekyou technique is going to be draining. Hence the reason Sasuke couldn't last long after using Amaterasu later in the battle- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/In the killer bee battle he had to get healed and take chakra from juugo before his amaretasu. He got chakra from juugo because he couldn't go anymore and then he used amaretasu and was out again. As for the time between killer bee and itachi fights, madara clearly thought he was ready so I don't think that is a valid point. Also they have a healer on their team so his wounds would heal quickly.

5. Genjutsu: Neji has no defense against genjutsu of Sasuke's level. Yes, he can see chakra with his Byakugan. Therefore he will be aware he's trapped in a genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he can escape it. He'll need to exert large amounts of chakra to escape Sasuke's MS genjutsu which he used in the battle against Killer Bee [Look at the above link]. We already know Sasuke is talented in the ways of genjutsu, as shown in multiple chapters. Here are some-
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/408/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/09/This is really the only way I see sasuke winning. Everything else he has neji can counter/avoid. At the same time, we don't know the effects of genjutsu on byakugan. We know its sees chakra so will be able to see through the genjutsu. Whether this allows them to get out of it is questionable.

6. Sharingan also predicts the opponent's movements before they come into motion. Neji doesn't have this. Going up against Sasuke in a taijutsu battle would be stupid, even for Neji. Here's a link [Thanks go to Smiley]- http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/230/08/
Even with his sharingan naruto landed hits before the fox. So while he can predict it isn't a guarentee of dodge. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/226/07/ He saw this coming, but still only matched the attack. Even though he saw it coming he didn't avoid it or change his attack to beat naruto's. There are other times he hit sasuke, but I don't want to go find to many links.

[Jackums]

Itachi was tricked by sasuke's clone. He thought it was real which is why he saved it. If he knew it was fake he would not have needed to keep it alive. He also had his fire overpowered. It wasn't a breeze.

Did you read my post? I said "Not necessarily meaning it was a breeze".

He is standing still right there. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/02/ then he starts to move at the same time as amaretasu http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/ then 3 pages later http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/06/ it finally catches him. While it doesn't depict time the fact that it takes more than one page it shows that sasuke out ran and it is not instantaneous.

Look in the last panel. The instant Sasuke saw Itachi's MS activating, he began running. His speed was the only reason he avoided it that quickly. An only because Sasuke has knowledge of the sharingan. Neji doesn't. He wouldn't be able to anticipate the attack, in any way. Case closed.

The flames don't stop, but his eye is closed. They no longer move. He can't control it by looking with a closed eye. That is the point.

Irreguardless. We know it won't be the same for Sasuke this time, because of the following reasons:
In his battle with Killer Bee, he'd used some MS genjutsu [possibly Tsukoyomi] before he performed Ama. He was also going through the healing process after his intense battle with Itachi. As far as we have been shown, he was sent to capture Killer Bee within two days of the battle. Such things don't heal overnight. And we know that the genjutsu Sasuke used was an MS technique, as right after using it he placed his hand over his eye and began panting. Average genjutsu doesn't do that. And any Mangekyou technique is going to be draining.

Kaiten has also stopped any attack against it.

Exactly. That's all Neji can do in this battle. Defend.

In two of sasuke's fights since team kakashi he has used very few abilities, i think 5 in both fights (itachi and diedara) and was out of chakra and tired. 5 attacks and then he will be unable to do anything. Then against killer bee he used 3 attacks and to do so had to be healed and given chakra from juugo. He tires out very quickly all neji needs to do is avoid 3-5 attacks and then he wins.

The amount of attacks are irrelevant. Look at Naruto. He hasn't used the greatest varuety of jutsu in the series, yet he's probably got the most stamina out of everyone. I'm not even going to bother providing links. Sasuke has shown enough to beat Neji hands down.

I think I have done the job of proving it isn't instant. Sasuke not only out runs it for 2 pages, he is also able to use his jutsu to get out of it. Neji will see fire and then gtfo of there.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/ - Explain Zetsu's motive to lie.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/02-03/ - Formed instantly here.

If you've ever read the manga, you'll notice they expand things as little as facial expressions over two pages. The amount of pages/panels does not depict time, and it is a weak debate.

Sasuke did, so I give neji a good chance to do so as well.

Neji posesses no such technique. Sasuke used Oro's snake replacment technique. Itachi himself said the jutsu was extremely hard to detect. All Neji posesses is a basic replacment jutsu - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/

In the killer bee battle he had to get healed and take chakra from juugo before his amaretasu. He got chakra from juugo because he couldn't go anymore and then he used amaretasu and was out again. As for the time between killer bee and itachi fights, madara clearly thought he was ready so I don't think that is a valid point. Also they have a healer on their team so his wounds would heal quickly.

Neji is no 8-tailed jinchuuriki.

This is really the only way I see sasuke winning. Everything else he has neji can counter/avoid. At the same time, we don't know the effects of genjutsu on byakugan. We know its sees chakra so will be able to see through the genjutsu. Whether this allows them to get out of it is questionable.

It's speculation. There's no proof. Neji is raped.

Even with his sharingan naruto landed hits before the fox. So while he can predict it isn't a guarentee of dodge. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/226/07/ He saw this coming, but still only matched the attack. Even though he saw it coming he didn't avoid it or change his attack to beat naruto's. There are other times he hit sasuke, but I don't want to go find to many links.

Sasuke can see the their movements before they move. It doesn't mean he can dodge/avoid every attack. It just gives him a greater advantage over his opponent.

[Smiley]

It is contested by actions of the characters.

No, it's contested by your interpretation of their actions, which is contradictory to the facts.

Madara says itachi can walk all over sasuke and yet itachi was pushed to the limit and tricked by sasuke. If he could stomp sasuke like madara suggests then he would have not need such great lenghts to tire sasuke.

Opinion. No proof to back any of that up. He was diseased, and had very little chakra reserves, but had to make it seem that he was trying to kill Sasuke and going all out - so naturally, he had to attack him with his most powerful techniques and waste large amounts of chakra.

As for him being "outsmarted" it was stated that he planned out all the details of the fight beforehand, and even took Sasuke's counter-measures into account. If you're planning to continue arguing against Madara's words with no evidence to back it up - this isn't even worth discussing. Show me where they're ever questioned or contradicted or concede.

The panels show where sasuke thought this may have occurred not where it did occur.

The thing is, Sasuke isn't a real person. It's just lines on the paper the exist to express the intentions of the author - to transmit and visualize his ideas and imaginations onto the paper. If we are given the images of Sasuke being almost killed by Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu and Madara saying that he would have been, had Itachi really tried - that's not Sasuke "thinking" anything. Sasuke cannot think, nor does he have any "opinions" or "knowledge" - he is a fictional character, whose purpose is to express the ideas and imaginations of the author. Many people need to stop viewing fictional universes as anything more than constructs of a human creator's mind that play by their rules, and start looking at fiction from a perspective of "What was the author thinking in writing this? If I were the author, how would I expect this information to be read? What would I expect it to mean to my readers?"

So "Sasuke didn't know" is not a valid argument - because we're not discussing a real universe - it's a fictional world where all statements and events are nothing more than the author's ideas given form. It's the same person writing all those lines, the same person whose words were used to construct the manga in first place. If Madara says that Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he really tried, and Sasuke just happens to have the images of himself almost being killed by Tsukoyomi/Amaterasu in his head - it's absolutely wrong to question Sasuke's knowledge - but look it from the author's perspective. Sharing information with readers under the assumption that it would mean nothing or very little to them, defeats the purpose of sharing the information in first place. Regardless of what Sasuke knows or doesn't know - when speaking in a serious, informative context - that's the author of the manga speaking through his characters. And unless the information is questioned, retracted or contradicted within canon, or unless it's just the author trying to deliberately mislead the readers for plot purposes, their validity should never be questioned.

Look at my previous pages where it takes 2 whole pages for amartasu to go from itachi to sasuke.


Because Sasuke started running before Itachi focused his eye on him. Amaterasu flames do not travel from the user - they appear on whatever the user focuses on. Look at the link with Madara that I provided. Sasuke just looked at Madara, and the flames appeared on his shoulder. The same deal was with Hachibi - Sasuke just looked at him, and he combusted. The flames never travelled from Sasuke's eyes to him. The only time in the series we've seen the flames chasing their target was when Itachi used the technique against Sasuke, and that's because Sasuke was already on the move when Itachi focused on him.This also goes along with what Zetsu stated - that the flames can be guided and that they continue spreading from the point the user initially focuses on.


Where does itachi notice it isn't sasuke?

Itachi said that Snake Bulimia is extremely difficult to detect, but he never said it was impossible:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/

Logic dictates that if the most advanced replacement technique in the series is "extremely hard" to detect, it should be easier to accomplish it with the lower-level ones, such as the Academy-level Kawarimi no jutsu.

Later, we were told that Itachi planned out all the details of the fight beforehand, and took Sasuke's counter-measures into account, so I think it's safe to say that he did, in fact see through his replacement.

He goes to "take" the eyes. He stop amaretasu from eating him. If he knew it wasn't sasuke he would have finished destroying it and not spared it.

No, because both Zetsu and Sasuke thought that he intended to take out Sasuke's eyes - he had to continue playing that role, regardless of what his true intentions were. If Sasuke realized that Itachi was aware of the fact that he escaped Amaterasu, but didn't bother to attack him while he was underground, that would seem extremely suspicious - so yeah, you get the idea.

telling the difference and knowing where neji is are 2 very different things. I have never said he won't know the difference, but he won't know where neji is.


He will, because Neji doesn't magically disappear and reappear at a different point in space. The whole point of Kawarimi no jutsu is to fool an opponent with a transformed object feint, and take the opportunity to hide without being noticed. Sharingan's movement-detecting and chakra-seeing abilities completely eliminate any possibility of its wielder being fooled by such cheapa, Academy-level tricks. This has been demonstrated many times throughout the manga. Sasuke will not be fooled by the basic Kawarimi no jutsu.

Kakashi misses itachi's in konoha

Itachi never used Kawarimi no jutsu against Kakashi that I recall.


itachi misses sasuke's,

Same as above. Unless you're referring to Snake Bulimia, but I went through that already.


He had trouble controling against bee. http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/04/ He barely touches bee before he is bleeding so badly that he can't keep his eye open to keep it moving. So while he may just need to look he has shown inability to do so.


He didn't have trouble controlling it - Bee already combusted into flames. There was no need for further control of the flames. Later, he was able to suppress that same flames by looking at them. But this is all irrelevant, as Neji won't be able to survive the initial hit - he won't be able to anticipate the technique like Sasuke was, and unlike Sasuke, he doesn't possess a high-level replacement technique like Snake Bulimia.

[Masterofdeath]

Neji's fight of his life was against the sound four where he transfered his chakra into (cant remember his names) strand from the arrow ad used it to win the fight. Neji is extremely advanced in taijutsu and superior to sasuke. He can win the fight on that alone. All it takes is one hit and that is the fight...

[vane]

I disagree I think it was the fight with the clone of himself we saw more of it. With kisame he didn't do anything. But yes we haven't seen much of neji though I think he probably developed stuff during the skip there is really no evidence. Though we have seen that his byakugan can see further than before and that his kaiten now makes craters in the ground. This credits the theory that he developed something new.
You disagree when that is what I said. Well its what I meant. I said Neji's fight of his life was either with his clone or with the 30% Kisame. I said either because really both of those fights are the fights that shows how far Neji has come along since the Pre skip. And what he showed in either of those fights wasnt extrodinary. He did well but nothing he did in either of those fights was good enough to compete on even grounds with Sasuke.

[Masterofdeath]

Like I said before... on hit is all it takes for Neji to defeat Sasuke. If you think he can't land a hit on Sasuke then you are watching a different show.

[Jackums]

And we've discussed that multiple times,
yet you continue to ignore reason, and go along with that arrogant,
fanatical comment. I'm going to ignore your posts, until you
actually start debating.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Like I said before... on hit is all it takes for Neji to defeat Sasuke. If you think he can't land a hit on Sasuke then you are watching a different show.

Ya i do think he wont land a hit. Chidori Nagashi cancles all close range attacks and sharingan cancels all long range. Also his chidori sword allows him all kinds of range. Kirin and neji has no chance to survive and amateratsu and Neji has no hope. This could end in about 3 seconds if sasuke uses amateratsu right off the bat

[Jackums]

And it's not just that either. Sharingan can see chakra, and anitcipate the opponents moves. Sasuke will see that Neji is concentrating his chakra into his hands, and realise what he's trying to accomplish. Then there's the fact that he Sasuke has the ability to counter that, with his shringan and Chidori Nagashi. It's the perfect combination to rape Neji with.

[duckofdoom99]

Look in the last panel. The instant Sasuke saw Itachi's MS activating, he began running. His speed was the only reason he avoided it that quickly. An only because Sasuke has knowledge of the sharingan. Neji doesn't. He wouldn't be able to anticipate the attack, in any way. Case closed.First of all sasuke has next to no knowledge of amaretasu. He saw it once. And the it got used again right after. That was his first experience with it. He had no real idea what it was going to do. Secondly, he still out ran. Regardless of moving slightly earlier it wasn't instantaneous.

In his battle with Killer Bee, he'd used some MS genjutsu [possibly Tsukoyomi] before he performed Ama. He was also going through the healing process after his intense battle with Itachi. As far as we have been shown, he was sent to capture Killer Bee within two days of the battle. Such things don't heal overnight. And we know that the genjutsu Sasuke used was an MS technique, as right after using it he placed his hand over his eye and began panting. Average genjutsu doesn't do that. And any Mangekyou technique is going to be draining.You keep ignoring the fact that after his tsuykomi he was given chakra from juugo and was healed by karin. He was not low on chakra. Juugo gave him his.

Exactly. That's all Neji can do in this battle. Defend.That all he needs to. In all sasuke's fights after the skip. He uses 3-5 attacks and is done. That is it. 3-5 attacks and its over.

The amount of attacks are irrelevant. Look at Naruto. He hasn't used the greatest varuety of jutsu in the series, yet he's probably got the most stamina out of everyone. I'm not even going to bother providing links. Sasuke has shown enough to beat Neji hands down.
I'm not talking variety. He can only use 3-5. Not he only has 3-5. After 3-5 he is out of chakra.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/ - Explain Zetsu's motive to lie.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/02-03/ - Formed instantly here.

If you've ever read the manga, you'll notice they expand things as little as facial expressions over two pages. The amount of pages/panels does not depict time, and it is a weak debate.
Zetsu says converges on that spot. Says nothing on that speed. There is no way to tell the time, but I have shown with the other one itachi used that it isn't instantaneous so even if this one is it is contradictory magan proof and so can't be clear. I know magna pages don't depict time, but sasuke was running. He was covering ground. It didn't catch him right away. It showed it getting closer. If it was instantaneous it wouldn't have needed to catch up. It would have been there already. It wasn't instantaneous. If it was he wouldn't have gone anywhere. It is a weak debate to say he moved that distance instantaneously at the same time that amaretasu did.

Neji posesses no such technique. Sasuke used Oro's snake replacment technique. Itachi himself said the jutsu was extremely hard to detect. All Neji posesses is a basic replacment jutsu - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/Itachi said that Snake Bulimia is extremely difficult to detect, but he never said it was impossible:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/

Logic dictates that if the most advanced replacement technique in the series is "extremely hard" to detect, it should be easier to accomplish it with the lower-level ones, such as the Academy-level Kawarimi no jutsu.

Later, we were told that Itachi planned out all the details of the fight beforehand, and took Sasuke's counter-measures into account, so I think it's safe to say that he did, in fact see through his replacement.All he did was need to move til itachi closed his eye. Once again. It has nothing to do with detecting. It has to do with moving out of the way. Especially with sasuke. He used amaretasu for a ridiculously short amount of time before closing eye and losing the control over it. Also hard to detect speculation unless it says it somewhere. High level doesn't make it good/hard to detect and low level doesn't make it bad/easy to detect. Most ninja rely on the low level kwarmi and shunshin so clearly it works.

Neji is no 8-tailed jinchuuriki.I dind't say he was. I was saying sasuke's lack of chakra was irrelevant because he got chakra from juugo. He was out of chakra from one tsuykomi and the got chakra and was out of chakra in one amaretasu.

It's speculation. There's no proof. Neji is raped.There is no proof that he can't either. And there is reason to believe that he can. It is speculation to say he can't and speculation to say he can.

Sasuke can see the their movements before they move. It doesn't mean he can dodge/avoid every attack. It just gives him a greater advantage over his opponent.And greater advantage doesn't always work. Being able to predict one like you said doesn't guarantee dodge or block and neji only needs a few hits to make sasuke useless. Few jabs to the arm and no more chidroi.

You disagree when that is what I said. Well its what I meant. I said Neji's fight of his life was either with his clone or with the 30% Kisame. I said either because really both of those fights are the fights that shows how far Neji has come along since the Pre skip. And what he showed in either of those fights wasnt extrodinary. He did well but nothing he did in either of those fights was good enough to compete on even grounds with Sasuke.Sorry I misunderstood what you were saying.

No, it's contested by your interpretation of their actions, which is contradictory to the facts.
What facts? A statement by a character that has been shown to lie and wanted to make sasuke join him so had very good motive to lie and manipulate him. The statement is contested by actions which show itachi being tricked. Madara's statement is as meaningful as the one about the one tail causing earhtquakes by smashing his tail whichh was shown not to happen when he fought gama.

Opinion. No proof to back any of that up. He was diseased, and had very little chakra reserves, but had to make it seem that he was trying to kill Sasuke and going all out - so naturally, he had to attack him with his most powerful techniques and waste large amounts of chakra.

As for him being "outsmarted" it was stated that he planned out all the details of the fight beforehand, and even took Sasuke's counter-measures into account. If you're planning to continue arguing against Madara's words with no evidence to back it up - this isn't even worth discussing. Show me where they're ever questioned or contradicted or concede.Yes he planned to act fooled so sauke out of chakra would do nothing. That is an amazing plan. That amaretasu put sasuke out of chakra when he avoided it. If he had known it was a clone he would have killed it and gone to the real one. Since he didn't do that, he was tricked. He saved the body. Why save a fake body? What did have to gain from tricking an out of chakra sasuke.

The thing is, Sasuke isn't a real person. It's just lines on the paper the exist to express the intentions of the author - to transmit and visualize his ideas and imaginations onto the paper. If we are given the images of Sasuke being almost killed by Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu and Madara saying that he would have been, had Itachi really tried - that's not Sasuke "thinking" anything. Sasuke cannot think, nor does he have any "opinions" or "knowledge" - he is a fictional character, whose purpose is to express the ideas and imaginations of the author. Many people need to stop viewing fictional universes as anything more than constructs of a human creator's mind that play by their rules, and start looking at fiction from a perspective of "What was the author thinking in writing this? If I were the author, how would I expect this information to be read? What would I expect it to mean to my readers?"

So "Sasuke didn't know" is not a valid argument - because we're not discussing a real universe - it's a fictional world where all statements and events are nothing more than the author's ideas given form. It's the same person writing all those lines, the same person whose words were used to construct the manga in first place. If Madara says that Itachi could have killed Sasuke if he really tried, and Sasuke just happens to have the images of himself almost being killed by Tsukoyomi/Amaterasu in his head - it's absolutely wrong to question Sasuke's knowledge - but look it from the author's perspective. Sharing information with readers under the assumption that it would mean nothing or very little to them, defeats the purpose of sharing the information in first place. Regardless of what Sasuke knows or doesn't know - when speaking in a serious, informative context - that's the author of the manga speaking through his characters. And unless the information is questioned, retracted or contradicted within canon, or unless it's just the author trying to deliberately mislead the readers for plot purposes, their validity should never be questioned.
It is a valid argument. There have been other times people look inside like that and speculate about things. Examples; naruto caught in finger genjutsu, naruto and sauke wondering if they could have been friends in VOTE, Jiraiya speculating who the chosen one is. He said it could have been both of them. According to you both would be magna fact and neither are speculation.

Because Sasuke started running before Itachi focused his eye on him. Amaterasu flames do not travel from the user - they appear on whatever the user focuses on. Look at the link with Madara that I provided. Sasuke just looked at Madara, and the flames appeared on his shoulder. The same deal was with Hachibi - Sasuke just looked at him, and he combusted. The flames never travelled from Sasuke's eyes to him. The only time in the series we've seen the flames chasing their target was when Itachi used the technique against Sasuke, and that's because Sasuke was already on the move when Itachi focused on him.This also goes along with what Zetsu stated - that the flames can be guided and that they continue spreading from the point the user initially focuses on.
They don't. Look again. It shows it getting closer. That isn't appearing on them. It got closer. It didn't just appear. It took time.

No, because both Zetsu and Sasuke thought that he intended to take out Sasuke's eyes - he had to continue playing that role, regardless of what his true intentions were. If Sasuke realized that Itachi was aware of the fact that he escaped Amaterasu, but didn't bother to attack him while he was underground, that would seem extremely suspicious - so yeah, you get the idea.
No. If he knew it was a clone he didn't need to pretend. He would have gone to the real one and done his take out the eye thing act. If he really knew he wouldn't have faked it. This in know way makes sasuke think he is fighting at full potential. Since you claim sharingan could detect this sasuke would know that and so he would know itachi wasn't going all out. Acting like it is the real sasuke would throw up a flag if he could detect. Sasuke would ask himself why is he going after the clone when he knows it isn't me? Also where does it say it is hard to detect?

Itachi never used Kawarimi no jutsu against Kakashi that I recall.I meant his shunshin/clone combo. The point was sharingan misses many things.

Same as above. Unless you're referring to Snake Bulimia, but I went through that already.I am and please give me a link where it says it is hard to detect.

He didn't have trouble controlling it - Bee already combusted into flames. There was no need for further control of the flames. Later, he was able to suppress that same flames by looking at them. But this is all irrelevant, as Neji won't be able to survive the initial hit - he won't be able to anticipate the technique like Sasuke was, and unlike Sasuke, he doesn't possess a high-level replacement technique like Snake Bulimia.He did have trouble controlling it. Right after it hit he had to close his eye. Since it goes where the eye looks. A closer eye wouldn't move the flames. So it was trouble with controlling it because he could no longer do so.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Actually proof that Amatertsu is when sasuke used it on TObi. Tobi has a space time ninjutsu so if amateratsu had to travel to him he woudl have been able to avoid it as he did against naruto's rasengan.

Secondly sasuke wasnt near full stregnth in his fight against 8 tails. He even stated (or maybe it was juugo) that his wounds from his brutal fight against Itachi still hadnt healed

[Masterofdeath]

Sasuke would have been killed against killer bee had that the killer bee truly wanted to fight. Sasuke doesn't have great control of amateratsu and he hasn't shown any other MS technique (that is legitimately a MS jutsu). Sasuke can be killed in one move by Neji. 8 trigrams mountain crusher.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Sasuke would have been killed against killer bee had that the killer bee truly wanted to fight. Sasuke doesn't have great control of amateratsu and he hasn't shown any other MS technique (that is legitimately a MS jutsu). Sasuke can be killed in one move by Neji. 8 trigrams mountain crusher.

chidori nagashi...... Also sharingan allows him to see it coming

[Masterofdeath]

Chidori nagashi can't stop 8 trigrams mountain crusher and how can sasuke predict what only the byakugan user can see?

[MinatoNamikaze]

Chidori nagashi can't stop 8 trigrams mountain crusher and how can sasuke predict what only the byakugan user can see?

Which jutsu was the mountain crusher? Was it the mid rangechakra throwing jutsu??

Secondly the sharingan can see chakra and judge distance based on its colour

[Masterofdeath]

I know what the sharingan can see. The mountain crusher is different from the throwing jutsu. Neji uses his byakugan to hit any target he has locked in his trigrams with a shot of chakra powerful enough to destroy mountains. The one time he used it he used it to break the barriers placed on him by kisame.

[Smiley]

I know what the sharingan can see. The mountain crusher is different from the throwing jutsu. Neji uses his byakugan to hit any target he has locked in his trigrams with a shot of chakra powerful enough to destroy mountains. The one time he used it he used it to break the barriers placed on him by kisame.

Hakke Hazangeki is a filler jutsu and it's never shown the capability to destroy mountains. That's just its name.

BTW, Neji used normal Jyuuken to escape Kisame's Suirou no jutsu.

[Jackums]

I know what the sharingan can see. The mountain crusher is different from the throwing jutsu. Neji uses his byakugan to hit any target he has locked in his trigrams with a shot of chakra powerful enough to destroy mountains. The one time he used it he used it to break the barriers placed on him by kisame.

Hakke Hazangeki is anime only. It's irrelevant here.

First of all sasuke has next to no knowledge of amaretasu. He saw it once. And the it got used again right after. That was his first experience with it. He had no real idea what it was going to do. Secondly, he still out ran. Regardless of moving slightly earlier it wasn't instantaneous.

If he had no knowledge of it, why did he began running once Itachi activated his Mangekyou? Sasuke obviously figured enough out to know or at least guessed when Amaterasu would activate.

You keep ignoring the fact that after his tsuykomi he was given chakra from juugo and was healed by karin. He was not low on chakra. Juugo gave him his.

Are you implying that they completely replenished his chakra both times?

That all he needs to. In all sasuke's fights after the skip. He uses 3-5 attacks and is done. That is it. 3-5 attacks and its over.

So Sasuke will just stand there throwing useless attacks at Neji until he has no chakra? Doubt it. Kirin or Amaterasu pwns Neji. We've already debated this, and know Neji has no defence against either of them.

I'm not talking variety. He can only use 3-5. Not he only has 3-5. After 3-5 he is out of chakra.

Sasuke won't need anymore than 3-5 attacks to majorly own Neji.

Zetsu says converges on that spot. Says nothing on that speed. There is no way to tell the time, but I have shown with the other one itachi used that it isn't instantaneous so even if this one is it is contradictory magan proof and so can't be clear. I know magna pages don't depict time, but sasuke was running. He was covering ground. It didn't catch him right away. It showed it getting closer. If it was instantaneous it wouldn't have needed to catch up. It would have been there already. It wasn't instantaneous. If it was he wouldn't have gone anywhere. It is a weak debate to say he moved that distance instantaneously at the same time that amaretasu did.

You're misinterpreting my point. Amaterasu forms instantly, where the user looks. It doesn't move to where ever to user looks instantly. But we do know it is fast, since it caught Sasuke, who has great speed compared to most of the narutoverse characters.
Amaterasu formed right where Sasuke was standing. He managed to move the moment he saw Itachi activate his MS - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/04/

All he did was need to move til itachi closed his eye. Once again. It has nothing to do with detecting. It has to do with moving out of the way. Especially with sasuke. He used amaretasu for a ridiculously short amount of time before closing eye and losing the control over it.

This is irrelevant. Neji knows absolutely nothing about MS techniques. He would have no way to predict Amaterasu just because Sasuke looks at him. You still haven't given any real debate against that point.

Also hard to detect speculation unless it says it somewhere. High level doesn't make it good/hard to detect and low level doesn't make it bad/easy to detect. Most ninja rely on the low level kwarmi and shunshin so clearly it works.

Speculation? I do recall giving you a link - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/
If such low level techniques were just as hard to detect, why would Sasuke even bother learning Snake Bulmia, which consumes large chakra amounts, eh? Enough with these pathetically weak debates.

I dind't say he was. I was saying sasuke's lack of chakra was irrelevant because he got chakra from juugo. He was out of chakra from one tsuykomi and the got chakra and was out of chakra in one amaretasu.

You seem to ignore everything people have brought up, that Neji can't defend against. Sasuke won't need anymore than 3-5 attacks. Your debates are plain weak and flat now.

And greater advantage doesn't always work. Being able to predict one like you said doesn't guarantee dodge or block and neji only needs a few hits to make sasuke useless. Few jabs to the arm and no more chidroi.

And like multiple people have said, countless times; CHIDORI NAGASHI. Sharingan sees chakra. Even if he didn't know of Neji's gentle fist, he could easily see that Neji was concentrating his chakra into his palms. Sasuke isn't stupid.

I am and please give me a link where it says it is hard to detect.

Can you read? Both me and smiley have given you links to a manga page with an exact quote - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/

He did have trouble controlling it. Right after it hit he had to close his eye. Since it goes where the eye looks. A closer eye wouldn't move the flames. So it was trouble with controlling it because he could no longer do so.

This is just getting ridiculous. SASUKE WOULDN'T NEED TO CONTROL IT. THE MOMENT IT TOUCHED NEJI, HE WOULD BE INCINERATED. How many times do we all have to repeat ourselves.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I know what the sharingan can see. The mountain crusher is different from the throwing jutsu. Neji uses his byakugan to hit any target he has locked in his trigrams with a shot of chakra powerful enough to destroy mountains. The one time he used it he used it to break the barriers placed on him by kisame.

Doesnt matter how strong it is. Sasuke can see a long range jutsu comming and the chakra being built up and know how and when to dodge it

[duckofdoom99]

If he had no knowledge of it, why did he began running once Itachi activated his Mangekyou? Sasuke obviously figured enough out to know or at least guessed when Amaterasu would activate.
He didn't have knowledge of it. He just didn't what to be hit by it. The two are very different, but yes he began moving and even though he started slightly early he out ran it for a time so it isn't just instant where it appears on the person.

Are you implying that they completely replenished his chakra both times?There is nothing to suggest it didn't. Juugo gave him all the chakra he could. So unless there is something to suggest juugo has much less chakra than sasuke it is logical to say he gave him at least most of his chakra back.

So Sasuke will just stand there throwing useless attacks at Neji until he has no chakra? Doubt it. Kirin or Amaterasu pwns Neji. We've already debated this, and know Neji has no defence against either of them.Kirin is irrelevant. He needs thunderstorms. The only way he got that last time was with 2 amaretasu's and 2 other fire attacks. So unless he can do that, there is no kirin. With amaretasu neji only needs to avoid it long enough for sasuke to close his eye. One kwarmi is good enough for that.

Sasuke won't need anymore than 3-5 attacks to majorly own Neji.I completely disagree. Neji is set up to defend. The only things that could penetrate his kaiten would be kirin and amaretasu. Kirin is irrelevant and amaretasu could be avoided with a kwarmi.

You're misinterpreting my point. Amaterasu forms instantly, where the user looks. It doesn't move to where ever to user looks instantly. But we do know it is fast, since it caught Sasuke, who has great speed compared to most of the narutoverse characters.
Amaterasu formed right where Sasuke was standing. He managed to move the moment he saw Itachi activate his MS - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/04/Your link prove you wrong. Each panel shows it getting closer. If it appeared instantly it wouldn't need to get closer. It would already be there.

This is irrelevant. Neji knows absolutely nothing about MS techniques. He would have no way to predict Amaterasu just because Sasuke looks at him. You still haven't given any real debate against that point.
He doesn't need to predict it he just needs to be able to kwarmi quick enough. As we saw sasuke prepared a higher level technique on the spot. I think neji is more than capable.

Speculation? I do recall giving you a link - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/
If such low level techniques were just as hard to detect, why would Sasuke even bother learning Snake Bulmia, which consumes large chakra amounts, eh? Enough with these pathetically weak debates.
Can you read? Both me and smiley have given you links to a manga page with an exact quote - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/
That is the first time that link was given, but whatever. I never said it wasn't harder to detect. I just asked where it said it otherwise it would have been speculation. And again it isn't about detection. It is about not being where he was and sasuke not being able to hold his eye open long enough for it to change where he is targeting.

You seem to ignore everything people have brought up, that Neji can't defend against. Sasuke won't need anymore than 3-5 attacks. Your debates are plain weak and flat now.There are only 2 and they are the center of the debate so I don't see how I am ignoring them. That aren't weak. They just disagree with yours. The entire argument boils down to amaretasu where I think that neji can kwarmi which is all he needs. If he kwarmis sasuke will be unable to follow him with the flames because he will be to busy bleeding.

And like multiple people have said, countless times; CHIDORI NAGASHI. Sharingan sees chakra. Even if he didn't know of Neji's gentle fist, he could easily see that Neji was concentrating his chakra into his palms. Sasuke isn't stupid. Sharingan doesn't see the concentration unless it is one such as chidori or rasengan where you hold it. It doesn't see where you move your chakra inside your body. So he would think neji is just hitting him as he has no information on he fights being absent from all 5. He wouldn't nagashi just for a punch. It would be a waste of chakra especially since all his jutsu consume such extraordinary amounts.

This is just getting ridiculous. SASUKE WOULDN'T NEED TO CONTROL IT. THE MOMENT IT TOUCHED NEJI, HE WOULD BE INCINERATED. How many times do we all have to repeat ourselves.Only if it did. He neji moves with kwarmi it misses and then sasuke is to busy bleeding.

[Jackums]

He didn't have knowledge of it. He just didn't what to be hit by it. The two are very different, but yes he began moving and even though he started slightly early he out ran it for a time so it isn't just instant where it appears on the person.

Sasuke could tell MS was about to be activated, by looking at Itachi's eyes. That is classified as knowledge. Even if he'd only figured it out in that battle.

+ Amaterasu instantly forms where the user looks. Sasuke moved just before MS was activated. Therefore the flames formed where Sasuke's previous position was, since that's where Itachi was looking before Sasuke moved. Do you get it now?

There is nothing to suggest it didn't. Juugo gave him all the chakra he could. So unless there is something to suggest juugo has much less chakra than sasuke it is logical to say he gave him at least most of his chakra back.

There's no proof to support your point. It's speculation, yet again.

Kirin is irrelevant. He needs thunderstorms. The only way he got that last time was with 2 amaretasu's and 2 other fire attacks. So unless he can do that, there is no kirin. With amaretasu neji only needs to avoid it long enough for sasuke to close his eye. One kwarmi is good enough for that.

What do you mean "only needs to avoid it long enough for Sasuke to close his eye"? How will he even know Sasuke is going to activate it in the first place. omg! Neji has no way of knowing that he's going to combust into flames in the first place. Seriously. He's not going to randomly use Kwarmi just because Sasuke is looking at him.

The only reason Sasuke managed to avoid Amaterasu in his battle with Itachi was because he'd seen Amaterasu, and he predicted Itachi was going to activate it. Which is why he started running in the first place.

So unless Neji is constantly moving through the whole battle, he's dead. He only needs to stop moving for a second, and Once Sasuke looks at him, BAM! Amaterasu rapes Neji.

I completely disagree. Neji is set up to defend. The only things that could penetrate his kaiten would be kirin and amaretasu. Kirin is irrelevant and amaretasu could be avoided with a kwarmi.

This is pathetic. Read above.

Your link prove you wrong. Each panel shows it getting closer. If it appeared instantly it wouldn't need to get closer. It would already be there.

Are you stupid?
It forms instantly. Sasuke moved, just before it formed. Which gave him that chance to run. Look at the link - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/04/

The ball of flames was right where Sasuke had previously been standing.

He doesn't need to predict it he just needs to be able to kwarmi quick enough. As we saw sasuke prepared a higher level technique on the spot. I think neji is more than capable.

Tell me how Neji will know Sasuke's is going to roast him alive by looking at him? Like I've said over and over; Sasuke only managed to avoid it, because he had seen how it worked earlier in his battle with Itachi. How could Neji possibly have any idea that flames were going to appear on his body in the first place?

That is the first time that link was given, but whatever. I never said it wasn't harder to detect. I just asked where it said it otherwise it would have been speculation. And again it isn't about detection. It is about not being where he was and sasuke not being able to hold his eye open long enough for it to change where he is targeting.

That made me lol! Both me and Smiley have given you that link. Shows how much attention you've been paying to our posts. That might be the reason for your extremely weak rebuttals. Let me quote both times:
Neji posesses no such technique. Sasuke used Oro's snake replacment technique. Itachi himself said the jutsu was extremely hard to detect. All Neji posesses is a basic replacment jutsu - http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/
Itachi said that Snake Bulimia is extremely difficult to detect, but he never said it was impossible:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/16/

M'hm. We couldn't of given you the links earlier :rolleyes:

There are only 2 and they are the center of the debate so I don't see how I am ignoring them. That aren't weak. They just disagree with yours. The entire argument boils down to amaretasu where I think that neji can kwarmi which is all he needs. If he kwarmis sasuke will be unable to follow him with the flames because he will be to busy bleeding.

Sharingan doesn't see the concentration unless it is one such as chidori or rasengan where you hold it. It doesn't see where you move your chakra inside your body. So he would think neji is just hitting him as he has no information on he fights being absent from all 5. He wouldn't nagashi just for a punch. It would be a waste of chakra especially since all his jutsu consume such extraordinary amounts.

Only if it did. He neji moves with kwarmi it misses and then sasuke is to busy bleeding.

Okay. I'm over it. You're arrogant, and stubborn. I'm going to ignore the rest of your posts as you're refusing to listen to the facts. And your only rebuttal has been proven wrong by both me, and smiley.

[duckofdoom99]

There's no proof to support your point. It's speculation, yet again.Its speculation either way. But after giving him chakra juugo could do nothing so he gave all he could. So it is more than likely sasuke had most of it back.

The rest deals with amaretasu so I am not going to bother quoteing and just say:

All your amaretasu is about it appearing instantly which your own links prove incorrect. The fact that it follows him and actually shows movement. Honestly. If it was instant there is no movement. Your point is laughable. Him moving would mean nothing if it was instant as you claim. If its instant it appears on sasuke regardless as itachi is still looking at sasuke. He wasn't looking where sasuke was. He was watching sasuke so the flames would have still appeared on him if it instantly appeared on what he was focusing on which it clearly didn't proved by your own link that you posted and the fact thatnot only does it take time, but multiple pages not just panels, but two pages to catch sasuke. Even with a head start this proves that amaretasu is not instant and there is a chance for people to move and use something such a kwarmi. Neji isn't just going to take black fire to the face. He will move and/or use kwarmi.

[Jackums]

It FORMS instantly. Meaning it's initial creation is instant. Once created, it doesn't move to where the user looks instantly. I never said that. I said, it instantly appears where the user looks upon MS activation. Once it's been created, it has a certain speed it can travel at to catch the opponent. Do you get what my point was now?

MS Guide to Usage:
STEP 1- User looks where they want the flames to appear.
STEP 2- The flames combust on that spot, once MS is activated
STEP 3- If the target managed to avoid the initial creation [rare], you must follow them with your sight. Although, the flames can only move at a certain speed. They don't instantly move to where you look.

The only "instant" part I was ever debating over, was the initial creation of the flames.

[duckofdoom99]

It FORMS instantly. Meaning it's initial creation is instant. Once created, it doesn't move to where the user looks instantly. I never said that. I said, it instantly appears where the user looks upon MS activation. Once it's been created, it has a certain speed it can travel at to catch the opponent. Do you get what my point was now?

MS Guide to Usage:
STEP 1- User looks where they want the flames to appear.
STEP 2- The flames combust on that spot, once MS is activated
STEP 3- If the target managed to avoid the initial creation [rare], you must follow them with your sight. Although, the flames can only move at a certain speed. They don't instantly move to where you look.

The only "instant" part I was ever debating over, was the initial creation of the flames.So now you are saying it instantly form and then moves? So it form in front of his eye and then moves? That is the same thing as saying it takes time to reach the target.

[MinatoNamikaze]

So now you are saying it instantly form and then moves? So it form in front of his eye and then moves? That is the same thing as saying it takes time to reach the target.

No it appears where the pupil focuses. So if the pupil move and looks at something else teh amateratsu will move too

[Masterofdeath]

You can say it appears wherever the pupil appears but evidence shows that that is not the case.

[Jackums]

It obviously takes time to reach the opponent, since it had to catch Sasuke. But it definately moves extremely fast, as it did catch Sasuke. It form instantly where the user looks. That's all Sasuke needs to defeat Neji.

*Sasuke looks at Neji*
*Neji has no way of telling what Sasuke is about to do, so he's not going to randomly use Kwarmi*
*Sasuke activates MS, and black flames instantly combust all over Neji*
*Neji dies*

Get it?

[Smiley]

You can say it appears wherever the pupil appears but evidence shows that that is not the case.

Show the evidence. Now.

Zetsu stated that the flames "spring up" on the focal point the user focuses on (I can provide a link to an accurate translation of the line) - that alone should be enough to end the argument. The only time we've actually seen the flames chasing their target was when Itachi used the technique against Sasuke - and that can easily be explained if we pay close attention to what happened in the interval between the point Itachi closed his Amaterasu eye, and reopened it to focus on Sasuke.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/

In the mid-panel we see Itachi's right eye closed - and Sasuke standing and waiting for Amaterasu to be cast. Then, Sasuke moves out of the way fast an instant before Itachi focuses on him - and thus avoids being where the flames initially appeared. That's why the flames didn't just appear on him and kill him - because he was already on the move when Itachi reopened his Amaterasu eye. The flames then formed in mid-air and continued chasing Sasuke and converging where Itachi looked. Furthermore, we know Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, so it's plausible to assume that he simply waited for Sasuke to move out of the way and then reopened his eye. And - Madara explicitly stated that Itachi could have killed Sasuke with his Mangekyou techniques if he had really tried - and that's another thing that supports this assumption. So from what we've been shown and told - the flames appear on an initial focus and later it's possible to guide the flames by looking.

This is also supported by the fact we've never seen the flames "shoot out" or come out of user's eyes. We usually see Amaterasu users having their eye closed in one panel, and next - their target is set on fire. We've never seen the flames travelling from Sasuke's eyes to Madara. Sasuke just looked at him - and the flames appeared on his shoulder (the point Sasuke focused on). We've never seen the flames coming out from Sasuke's eyes and travelling to the Hachibi Bijuu. Sasuke just looked at him, and he combusted.

And unless and until someone shows me a page of Amaterasu flames coming out of the user's eyes, I'm going to go right ahead and say that they form on user's target - that's what has been stated and shown more than once.

[Masterofdeath]

It obviously takes time to reach the opponent, since it had to catch Sasuke. But it definately moves extremely fast, as it did catch Sasuke. It form instantly where the user looks. That's all Sasuke needs to defeat Neji.

*Sasuke looks at Neji*
*Neji has no way of telling what Sasuke is about to do, so he's not going to randomly use Kwarmi*
*Sasuke activates MS, and black flames instantly combust all over Neji*
*Neji dies*

Get it?
Yes I know that it doesn't appear instantly and I know it moves extremely fast, but the point I want to make to you is that this match will not be contested up close to where Neji won't have enough time to react to a jutsu like Amateratsu because he is also extremely fast.
Show the evidence. Now.

Zetsu stated that the flames "spring up" on the focal point the user focuses on (I can provide a link to an accurate translation of the line) - that alone should be enough to end the argument. The only time we've actually seen the flames chasing their target was when Itachi used the technique against Sasuke - and that can easily be explained if we pay close attention to what happened in the interval between the point Itachi closed his Amaterasu eye, and reopened it to focus on Sasuke.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/

In the mid-panel we see Itachi's right eye closed - and Sasuke standing and waiting for Amaterasu to be cast. Then, Sasuke moves out of the way fast an instant before Itachi focuses on him - and thus avoids being where the flames initially appeared. That's why the flames didn't just appear on him and kill him - because he was already on the move when Itachi reopened his Amaterasu eye. The flames then formed in mid-air and continued chasing Sasuke and converging where Itachi looked. Furthermore, we know Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke, so it's plausible to assume that he simply waited for Sasuke to move out of the way and then reopened his eye. And - Madara explicitly stated that Itachi could have killed Sasuke with his Mangekyou techniques if he had really tried - and that's another thing that supports this assumption. So from what we've been shown and told - the flames appear on an initial focus and later it's possible to guide the flames by looking.

This is also supported by the fact we've never seen the flames "shoot out" or come out of user's eyes. We usually see Amaterasu users having their eye closed in one panel, and next - their target is set on fire. We've never seen the flames travelling from Sasuke's eyes to Madara. Sasuke just looked at him - and the flames appeared on his shoulder (the point Sasuke focused on). We've never seen the flames coming out from Sasuke's eyes and travelling to the Hachibi Bijuu. Sasuke just looked at him, and he combusted.

And unless and until someone shows me a page of Amaterasu flames coming out of the user's eyes, I'm going to go right ahead and say that they form on user's target - that's what has been stated and shown more than once.

We both know what was stated, but we are declaring that false because it has never been seen instantly appearing on its target... It is simply saying that the statement was an over exageration by a character who had succumb to the hype of the MS. And, even your boy agrees that it is not instant.

[Smiley]

We both know what was stated, but we are declaring that false because it has never been seen instantly appearing on its target... It is simply saying that the statement was an over exageration by a character who had succumb to the hype of the MS.

Well if it was just the statement, I would have agreed - but it's backed up by what we've seen Amaterasu does - so I really don't see where a contradiction is.

It's been shown forming on its target more than once. In fact, the only time we've seen it chasing their target was when Itachi used it against Sasuke - and I gave an in-detail explanation in my last post for that.

[Masterofdeath]

It hasn't been shown one time instantly converging on a target. Yes, I read your explanation but you have to explain the incident with Madara, the frog, and against killer bee (the only times its been used.)

[Smiley]

It hasn't been shown one time instantly converging on a target. Yes, I read your explanation but you have to explain the incident with Madara, the frog, and against killer bee (the only times its been used.)

What incident with Madara? The flames clearly appeared on Madara's shoulder - I mentioned that in my post:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/

The frog? If you're referring to Itachi using Amaterasu to burn through Jiraiya's Iwagama toad on Myouboku Mountain Rock Inn - the execution of Amaterasu happened off-screen, so we can't tell what happened - we just saw a bigass hole in the wall and Jiraiya later commenting on the heat of the flames.

As for Killer Bee - again, I don't see a contradiction. Sasuke just looked at him and he combusted:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/01/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/02-03/

We've never seen the flames coming out of his eyes, as you are suggesting.

[Masterofdeath]

No I didn't say it comes out the eye I said it doesn't instantly appear at a target. And, if it appeared instantly on Madara's shoulder then Madara wouldn't have been able to teleport away from it without the slightest hint of damage, and the statement I am trying to make is that it wasn't instant in that case but appeared to be that way because they were in such close quaters.

[MinatoNamikaze]

No I didn't say it comes out the eye I said it doesn't instantly appear at a target. And, if it appeared instantly on Madara's shoulder then Madara wouldn't have been able to teleport away from it without the slightest hint of damage, and the statement I am trying to make is that it wasn't instant in that case but appeared to be that way because they were in such close quaters.

That would be because of the SECRET he kept from Itachi

[Masterofdeath]

What was the secret he kept from Itachi? A secret power to make amateratsu not an instantaneous attack.

[Jackums]

Yes I know that it doesn't appear instantly and I know it moves extremely fast,

It does appear instantly. But doesn't move instantly. Although it is extremely fast - being to catch Sasuke in such a short period of time.

but the point I want to make to you is that this match will not be contested up close to where Neji won't have enough time to react to a jutsu like Amateratsu because he is also extremely fast.

What do you mean "react"? How could he possibly know it was going to happen anyway? NEJI HAS NEVER SEEN AMATERASU. There's no warning. I've explained this over and over.

We both know what was stated, but we are declaring that false because it has never been seen instantly appearing on its target... It is simply saying that the statement was an over exageration by a character who had succumb to the hype of the MS.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/415/02-03/

In both of the above cases, it formed instantly.

How do you think Amaterasu forms? You've explained that you don't think it comes out of the eye, and you've also said that it doesn't form on the target. So what exactly is your theory?

And, even your boy agrees that it is not instant.

If you're referring to me when saying "boy", then you're wrong. I never agreed with you.
Smiley is correct.

Seriously. Can you read? I said it DOES form instantly, but if it manages to miss (like in Sasuke's case), then it takes a short time to reach the opponent. When I say it takes time to travel, I mean IF it misses in the first place. It's initial creation instantly appears on the targets body. But if the user wishes to move the flames, they do take a short time to travel to the desired position.

[Xinobi]

I sadly have to agree that Sasuke is stronger than Neji at this point in the manga. Even though he never "earned" what he has as the next stage of the sharingan, he does have Amaterasu and some other mind control form of sharingan. There is no proof to say that the Kaiton will block black flames or stop this mind control suggestion. Before this it would have been a decent fight to see and pretty tough to call. Even though Neji is one of the faster progressing characters, the story is not centered around him. I can only hope that when he sees the village and learns of what has happened to Hinata that causes an enrage we have not seen in a while and it brings forth a new power only native to the Byakugan. It is the other eye technique for goodness sakes. Since the village is in a vulnerable state now I think another attack from another village is iminent. We may see something from Neji then but until we know mor, Sasuke is the strongest.

P.S.
Neji is my favorite, regardless.

GO NEJI!!!

[Masterofdeath]

Amateratsu forms instantly, but it doesn't form instantly on its specific target that is my theory.

[Jackums]

LOL. Well where are you assuming it forms then? Seriously. You're disagreeing with our arguments, which are correct. Yet, you don't have an explanation of your side of the debate.

[Masterofdeath]

I believe it forms near the user, and from there travels at an enourmous rate towards the target of the attack.

[Jackums]

Possible.
But there's near no proof to support that. Whereas there is
far more to support that Amaterasu forms on the target.

- Zetsu had no reason to lie.
- It was also shown when Team Hawk fought Killer Bee.
- Then, there's Sasuke's meeting with Tobi/Madara.

You've been given the links to all of the above, and I assume you've read them.

[Masterofdeath]

Yes, I have read all them and from them have gained my theory of how it forms and attacks. They all provide logical explanations that lead to my theory. And, like I stated before zestu is a mere example of another spectator that had overhyped and assumed the ability of a technique he had never seen and only heard of. He was just another example of a person that only knew second hand information which is never 100% correct.

[Jackums]

There's obviously alot more proof that the flames form on the target.
And you can't prove that Zetsu hadn't seen Amaterasu before. You can't
prove that it was 'second hand information'. Drop it. It's speculation. You
have near no proof. If your theory is one day proven in the manga, then you
can come back and rant about it.

[taiyana_chan]

This debate is still going on? Sasuke will spank Neji. And Zetsu definitely has seen Amaterasu before, or he wouldn't have recognized the attack when it was used.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Zetsu was speaking as Kishis liason of info to us just as madara was.

[Smiley]

There's obviously alot more proof that the flames form on the target.
And you can't prove that Zetsu hadn't seen Amaterasu before. You can't
prove that it was 'second hand information'. Drop it. It's speculation. You
have near no proof. If your theory is one day proven in the manga, then you
can come back and rant about it.

Zetsu himself said that he hadn't seen Amaterasu before, but that's completely irrelevant. People need to understand that when discussing a fictional material you can't discredit uncontested statements under the assumption that the character who made the statement didn't have the knowledge on the matter.

Why?

Because they aren't real people. They're lines on paper, that exist to transmit thoughts and ideas of the author. The point is, lines on paper don't have any knowledge to begin with. They only have the knowledge that the author of the material gives them. If you were the writer, would you write something and then expect the readers to assume something totally different? The answer is, of course "No" because the motive behind providing false information to readers doesn't make any sense (unless it's for plot purposes - which isn't the case here).

[Jackums]

Which is exactly my point.
MOD is going on with all these whack theories, with near
no proof to support it. Amaterasu forms on the target, and
it has been shown multiple times. Yet, he still decides to ignore
that fact, and avoid it by coming up with fruitless theories.

[Masterofdeath]

No, I actually look at the jutsu and I see that it clearly doesn't form on the target. If it did form on the target then it would have killed Sasuke instantly, it would have formed instantly on the 8-tails, and it would have formed instantly on madara and would have killed him, but it didn't... and you know why? Because IT DOESN'T FORM INSTANTLY ON TARGET. But I am going to break it down for you since you don't seem to get it. It has been stated that amateratsu can not be put out until the target is destroyed or the user calls back its power. (That we know is a fact) So, if it instantly formed on the target then it would have instantly formed on Madara and completely killed him, or burned the living hell out of him because it can't be put out. You know why it didn't kill him or even harm him? The answer is simple... it never touched him. Now you wonder how could it never have touched him if he didn't move and just stood there making himself a non moving target (so you can't use the Itachi vs. Sasuke amateratsu to explain this situation as he had moved before hand...) yet he was able to avoid the jutsu with time space jutsu. Now how can you avoid the jutsu or put it out with time space jutsu if it instantly appears on the target and won't stop burning until the target is destroyed... because it doesn't form on the target which allowed Madara to be able to use time space jutsu to avoid it.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/
Notice the tile/grid marks on the tiles. It shows the amateratsu as it is on its path to the user... It shows that there is a time between the activation of the technique (madara was able to see the technique as it formed) and the actual connection between the target and the flame. The same is shown in the fight against killed bee.

[Smiley]

No, I actually look at the jutsu and I see that it clearly doesn't form on the target. If it did form on the target then it would have killed Sasuke instantly, it would have formed instantly on the 8-tails, and it would have formed instantly on madara and would have killed him, but it didn't... and you know why? Because IT DOESN'T FORM INSTANTLY ON TARGET.

We've already explained the both cases, so why are you bringing it up again? The flames did appear on Hachibi - Sasuke just looked at him and he combusted. The panels never showed the flames travelling from Sasuke's eyes to him. As for Sasuke, read this post, I don't feel like writing all that stuff again:

http://www.talknaruto.com/showpost.php?p=858228&postcount=120


But I am going to break it down for you since you don't seem to get it. It has been stated that amateratsu can not be put out until the target is destroyed or the user calls back its power. (That we know is a fact)

And yet, we know that Mangekyou Sharingan can put out the flames - and we know that Madara possesses one. He could have extinguished the flames before they did any serious harm to him just as easily as Sasuke did. The flames clearly hit him - observe your own link carefully. Even the side-text from Kishimoto said "Tobi is engulfed by the black flame":

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/04/

Hell, even Madara himself said "Impossible" when the flames formed on him, which indicates that he didn't see them coming.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/
Notice the tile/grid marks on the tiles. It shows the amateratsu as it is on its path to the user... It shows that there is a time between the activation of the technique (madara was able to see the technique as it formed) and the actual connection between the target and the flame. The same is shown in the fight against killed bee.

That doesn't prove that the flames travel from user to its target. It just proves that user has to focus on his target for couple of moments before the flames form on it, which...we knew already.

It's the same deal with Kakashi's Kamui:

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/276/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/276/05/

You can see the similar lines as in Madara/Sasuke case, and that he had to focus on Deidara for few moments before the time/space hole formed on his chest. That doesn't mean that Kamui travelled from Kakashi to Deidara.

[Masterofdeath]

Ok... you got me. I was wrong. I had to look a couple times at all the examples. Know back to the topic at hand of Neji vs. Sasuke.

[Jackums]

Touche. I really can't add on to what Smiley has said. Covered everything.

Ok... you got me. I was wrong. I had to look a couple times at all the examples. Know back to the topic at hand of Neji vs. Sasuke.

Now that we've finally proven our point, I think it's obvious Sasuke wins.
Neji is easily raped by Amaterasu. If Sasuke even gets to the point, where
he's forced to use it. We've also discussed this.

[Masterofdeath]

Yes we have discussed this and Sasuke wins with amateratsu, and amateratsu only (sighs in the background). Neji still rules! But Sasuke takes it.

[hyugamaster]

Well now that Sasuke has lost the Curse Mark and gained the MS this battle has changed significantly...
Since they are both Mid-to-short-range fighters it's hard to determine...
As of now I still say Sasuke because of his Chidori ablilities but that would be the only reason...
If Neji were to land a 64 Palms on him, the fight would be over...