Tobi vs. Kakashi (OFFICIAL THREAD)

[Toshiru™]

Tobi has Uchiha Madara's power.
Kakashi have his own Mangekyou Sharigan that sucks anything into another dimension. Who will win?

[KingTW]

We REALLY don't know enough about Tobi to answer this question

[Toshiru™]

Duh! That's why I'm asking people who knows.

[KingTW]

ur not guna find n e 1who knows enough about tobi, because the manga hasn't shown nearly enough of him fighting for us 2 know what he can do

[[Roc Boy]>B Rad]

all we no is that tobi can make a hole in his body and recover fast from fatal shots

[Doctor Octogonapus]

We all also know Tobi hasn't appeared in dubbed :)

[KingTW]

hahaha that's true xD, topic should b moved ya?

[Summer.]

moved :)

[Minato]

yeah and also in manga 384 it seems to take to the fight of itachi and sasuke...
More info about that in spoiler tag...
Sasuke kills Itachi with Chidori Current while Itachi uses genjutsu that shows crows and goes to a near by stone chair...Sasuke says he didit like before and uses genjutsu to go behind itachi and then kill inserts the sword inside the stomach of itachi....And Sasuke says Before i kill u i want to ask u one thing...
You can get the chinese scans by www.onemanga.com & some translated manga download @ www.narutocentral.com or u can visit http://ncsite.workpage.ws/photos/view.php?gid=14&phid=0 and read the translated manga not completed though..

So if we dont know enough moves about tobi we will go witht the move we know and Kakashi will win :)

[KingTW]

If you dun know about 1 person, it's hard 2 make a good accurate prediction, so I'm not guna make my prediction until I know a bit more about Tobi.

Off Topic, but grats Summer on mod xD, was hoping you'd get it

[Minato]

haha agreed agreed

[Summer.]

If you dun know about 1 person, it's hard 2 make a good accurate prediction, so I'm not guna make my prediction until I know a bit more about Tobi.

Off Topic, but grats Summer on mod xD, was hoping you'd get it

thanks^^
and yes, it's hard to make any predictions right now.
but IF tobi actually is obimadara then kakashi doesn't have many chances for the win...
I mean... madara... well... kinda tough guy xD

[KingTW]

if he is obimandara i'd have a hard time putting n e 1 over him, but we don't know that 4 sure yet.

[hyugamaster]

not enough info

[**Marisa**]

thanks^^
and yes, it's hard to make any predictions right now.
but IF tobi actually is obimadara then kakashi doesn't have many chances for the win...
I mean... madara... well... kinda tough guy xD

It is for that exact reason that i hope tobi is not madara...
Well if tobi is obimadara, i think madara has taken over obito,s body and is now controling his mind (somehow...). And if tobi is not simply madara, than it has two wills, his own and obito,s. If so then it is likely that in the end of the fight, obito would turn out good, protecting kaksahi... Still, Kakashi would certainly have a very tough time, fighting him... (he was his friend )
Anyway, if tobi was pure madara, he would (i have to admit) kill Kakashi. And in that case there should be one other konoha shinobi to defeat tobi(madara)... WHO?
I don,t think it,s gonna be naruto, cus he will fight pein (i gues)...

[sasuke_love]

actually, kakashi doesn't have that. itachi does. the only thing i know about tobi though is that sasori used to be deidara's partner in the akatsuki, then he died, tobi came to the akatsuki and became deidara's partner. (yes, i know my akatsuki.) anyway, i think kakashi would win only because i know he knows a lot. i don't know if tobi made it into being a chunin and kakashi is a jonin.

[Dragon Rajin]

i would say......................it depends if tobis mandara he would obviusly win but ifg hes that other guy, then kakashi would most likly win

[Konoha's Warrior]

Do not wan't to say Tobi because I do not have Solid Fact's on him other than when he does get serious He is Powerful if that is true. And the fact that he claimed to Madara Uchiha. But I don't want to say Kakashi Because I don't want underestimate Tobi.

[Super Luigi]

obito vs kakashi hmmmmm kakashi

thats hard they both have just one sharingan which tobi is obito but still hard to say

[shika shuffle]

tobi vs. kakashi who do you think would win i am going to say tobi because isn't he madara?:o

[Mystik]

Well we havent seen much of what Tobi can do right now.. but if what was said about madara is true and still stands then i say Tobi..

[Uzuki]

We've seen Tobi use space/time jutsu stronger than the 4ths. Even if he's not Madara, he's better than Kakashi.

[shika shuffle]

agreed

[Uzuki]

Kakashi wins, because he never loses!

Except when he uses his Sharingan. Then, even when he wins, he loses. And he's reached the point where he continuously needs his sharingan.

[Praetorian]

that's correct, but he is far stronger and faster than we often give him credit for being, besides his being one of the smartest ninjas there is. Tobi is only a shell of Madara's former glory

[Fliff]

Still, Tobi's jutsus (besides space/time) are mysteries to us. He might know standard Uchiha Clan jutsu but other then that, I can't really assume anything else. So, for my choice, I'm picking Kakashi.

[hyugamaster]

kakashi still hasnt figured out a way to hit tobi because in the current manga tobi is unhittable(naruto's rasengan went rite through him)
tobi will ofcourse win due to the fact that he is untouchable

[shika shuffle]

kakashi still hasnt figured out a way to hit tobi because in the current manga tobi is unhittable(naruto's rasengan went rite through him)
tobi will ofcourse win due to the fact that he is untouchable

yeah i know that was messed up and when shino's bug were on him he just disapeared

[Masterofdeath]

Yes, until someone finds a way to hit him it is Tobi.

[Styles Clash]

Show Kakashi some love nobody is unhittable there has to be a way to get Tobi...

[Masterofdeath]

But we don't know it.

[Styles Clash]

Yes but someone has to know it!

[Masterofdeath]

That someone hasn't been revealed so we can't use it.

[_Zetsu_]

probaly someone in the akatsuki knows who it is, like pein or someone like that.

[_Zetsu_]

idk either im guessing

[Tsugaga]

u can't say Madara would win ause he is a mystery character. The only info on him is that he is the Akatsuki leader and has a powerful Sharingan.

[itachi0110]

ok it goes pein then madara and kakashi can't come close to beating pein so i guess u kno who wins

[Tsugaga]

well that doesn't mean anything unless Madara comes close to beating Pein

[Doctor Octogonapus]

u can't say Madara would win ause he is a mystery character. The only info on him is that he is the Akatsuki leader and has a powerful Sharingan.

We're not saying Madara would win.
The battle is Tobi vs. Kakashi.
Not Madara vs. Kakashi.

Idk who would win.
Logically it would be Tobi.
But story wise I'd say Kakashi.
We have no way of knowing who would with even if we knew more about Tobi.
I'm guessing this is the match up later on, Tobi vs. Kakashi.
So I'm just gonna go with let's wait and see.

[VampiricUchiha]

I think it would be Tobi since that one fight they had with him no attacks even hit him they went plum through his body...

[Peinsagod]

yeah but to hit kakashi he would have to make himself hitable and we really dont know enough about him to judge this fight

[caleb08]

tobi because his sharingan is more powerful than kakashi's.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I think it would be Tobi since that one fight they had with him no attacks even hit him they went plum through his body...

That's why I think Kakashi is one of the only people that can beat him.
Tobi can dodge any attack that comes at him.
Except the Black Hole Technique.

[Kuro Nagashi]

Kakashi wins, because he never loses!

actually that is a false statement because when hes fighting itachi on the lake in the leaf village he was technacilly defeated.

[Kuro Nagashi]

Show Kakashi some love nobody is unhittable there has to be a way to get Tobi...

yes that is true but you would have to have a very high endurance and be able to survive until tobi/madara ran out of chakara but tobi still wins

[HyuugaHanabi]

Tobi wins. Kakashi can put up a fight, but i don't think he'll be able to defeat him. if he could then it would be a long while until he does.

[hyuga_fan]

tobi

kakashi couldnt hit him

and if tobi does teleportation

then even the black hole wont work

space/time

just go back in time and dodge the attk duh

[Smiley]

How do you know he can travel through time?
I know it's called space/time but so far we've only seen space travelling.
He's pretty invincible if he can go through time :/

[hyuga_fan]

well if he can go through time then that would explain why he's still alive...

[Smiley]

4th could do the time/space too and he's dead, Sasuke can as well.
Nope, I don't think Tobi can travel through time.
His version is only more advanced because he doesn't have to do the hand signs.

[hyuga_fan]

if u reread the chapter kakashi said his time/space jutsu was better because he could teleports parts of his body and since when can sasuke teleport???

[Smiley]

I don't know since when, but he teleported to avoid Deidara's explosion.

And you're right about teleporting parts of bodies, but no, he can't go throught time, that's just too much.
With that ability he can destroy Konoha and everything he wants without anyone's help.

[hyuga_fan]

lol true but then i wonder why they call time/space teleporting...

[Doctor Octogonapus]

That's exactly why Kakashi is going to beat him.
Kakashi may not be stronger than him.
But he's one of the few people who can beat him.

[hyuga_fan]

u dont get it majin

tobi can teleport without making hand signs

it truly is instantaneous

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, I do get it.
But someone has to beat him, no?
Tsunade's dead, The elders aren't gonna fight.
That leaves Hiashi, Shikaku, Inochi, and Choza and we both know they aren't gonna be the ones to beat Tobi.
It makes sense, the Black Hole Jutsu is one of the only things that can kill Tobi.

[hyuga_fan]

i really doubt that kakashi can take on tobi

i think it will be sasuke or naruto

kakashi's cant dodge any of tobi's eye techs becase he doesnt kno them himself

kakashi is screwed against tobi

tobi has ALL of itachi's jutsu and more

tobi didnt teach itachi everything

it has to be sasuke and naruto teamed up or something along those lines

[Doctor Octogonapus]

i really doubt that kakashi can take on tobi

i think it will be sasuke or naruto

kakashi's cant dodge any of tobi's eye techs becase he doesnt kno them himself

kakashi is screwed against tobi

tobi has ALL of itachi's jutsu and more

tobi didnt teach itachi everything

it has to be sasuke and naruto teamed up or something along those lines

It makes sense for Naruto and Sasuke to team up on Tobi.
But the thing you are forgetting is the fact that they are both coming at the same time and Naruto is gonna fight Sasuke.

Also Tobi taught Itachi nothing.
And we don't know any of Tobi's eye techniques.

[hyuga_fan]

It makes sense for Naruto and Sasuke to team up on Tobi.
But the thing you are forgetting is the fact that they are both coming at the same time and Naruto is gonna fight Sasuke.\

sorry if i dont understand but..
WHAT???

Also Tobi taught Itachi nothing.
And we don't know any of Tobi's eye techniques.

all that itachi knos tobi taught him

[Doctor Octogonapus]

\

sorry if i dont understand but..
WHAT???

Sasuke and Tobi are going to attack Konoha at the same time.
Therefore he can only fight one, that one will obviously be Sasuke.

all that itachi knos tobi taught him

Proof?

[hyuga_fan]

Sasuke and Tobi are going to attack Konoha at the same time.
Therefore he can only fight one, that one will obviously be Sasuke.

then that means the entire village will be fighting and sasuke and naruto will be somewhere secluded(obviously)



Proof?

just go back to the night itachi massacred his family(i dont mean massacre in a bad way because i kno it was just his job)

itachi even said tht tobi taught him how to use ALL of his eye techs

[Doctor Octogonapus]

then that means the entire village will be fighting and sasuke and naruto will be somewhere secluded(obviously)

I think everyone would be secluded to avoid casualties.

just go back to the night itachi massacred his family(i dont mean massacre in a bad way because i kno it was just his job)

itachi even said tht tobi taught him how to use ALL of his eye techs

Again, PROOF.

[hyuga_fan]

OMG wat do u want from me im just human

y do u want proof if u have seen it with ur own eyes that itachi admited that all of his eye techs came from madara

i dnt remember off hand where

i just hav a vague idea

at this moment i have onemanga in a different tab looking ok just give me some time

if u want it so bad look for it

but u kno like i do that madara was itachi's mentor

EDIT: I've found it!!!

EUREKA

here is the link...http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/10/

here is your proof

NOW READ IT AND WEEP...not really...

[Doctor Octogonapus]

OMG wat do u want from me im just human

y do u want proof if u have seen it with ur own eyes that itachi admited that all of his eye techs came from madara

i dnt remember off hand where

i just hav a vague idea

at this moment i have onemanga in a different tab looking ok just give me some time

if u want it so bad look for it

but u kno like i do that madara was itachi's mentor

I found where it said he was his teacher, although what you seem to forget is that everything Itachi said there was a lie.
Madara isn't invincible, nor immortal.
Tobi cleared this up when he told Sasuke what really happened.
Itachi was with Konoha, not against it.

All that proved was that Tobi was a pawn to Itachi.

[hyuga_fan]

hmmm...

Highly Suspect...

but still look at my evidence it still suggests that Itachi was trained by Madara/Tobi somehow...

and if he isnt immortal then how has he lived for over a century...(give or take a few years)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

hmmm...

Highly Suspect...

but still look at my evidence it still suggests that Itachi was trained by Madara/Tobi somehow...

and if he isnt immortal then how has he lived for over a century...(give or take a few years)

The evidence you suggested proved nothing.
As Madara and Itachi were working together.
Itachi was using Madara to give information to who I and many other people believe to be Jiriaya.

And his age is around 130, if he's alive.
Tobi isn't 100% Madara, that's clear in the manga.

[vane]

\

sorry if i dont understand but..
WHAT???



all that itachi knos tobi taught him


Actually no. Tobi/Madara doesnt teach Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu or Susanoo. For one Tobi/Madara doesnt even know any eye techs right now because he has never shown any. For 2 all MS are different so far so Itachi and Madara wont have the same techs. And for three Madara's eyes are damaged or not even working at all. That is why he is on the Bijuu hunt. To make things the way they should be. His power Madara Uchiha's power. As it says in the manga. So Tobi/Madara doesnt even have anything until proven otherwise.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Actually no. Tobi/Madara doesnt teach Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu or Susanoo. For one Tobi/Madara doesnt even know any eye techs right now because he has never shown any. For 2 all MS are different so far so Itachi and Madara wont have the same techs. And for three Madara's eyes are damaged or not even working at all. That is why he is on the Bijuu hunt. To make things the way they should be. His power Madara Uchiha's power. As it says in the manga. So Tobi/Madara doesnt even have anything until proven otherwise.

Agreed.
Although technically he does have something else, we just don't know what.

[vane]

Agreed.
Although technically he does have something else, we just don't know what.

True but thats my point. We cant guess what it is.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Exactly.

[hyuga_fan]

Actually no. Tobi/Madara doesnt teach Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu or Susanoo. For one Tobi/Madara doesnt even know any eye techs right now because he has never shown any.

That is a very false assumption...madara fought the first with his techs
and then there is the fact that he took, voluntarily, his brothers eyes suggesting that he does no eye techs or else y would he need his brothers eyes


For 2 all MS are different so far so Itachi and Madara wont have the same techs. And for three Madara's eyes are damaged or not even working at all.

Majins new word...Proof

That is why he is on the Bijuu hunt. To make things the way they should be. His power Madara Uchiha's power. As it says in the manga. So Tobi/Madara doesnt even have anything until proven otherwise.

the reason he is hunting bijuu is because he is making a weapon to start a new world in his image(he is going to eventually turn on pein)
and y are u suggesting that he is some fetus who can control gods(pein) because i dont think tht pein would take orders from a fetus...do u??


and majin how is madara not 100% madara PROOF lol

and are u suggesting that Itachi, Madara, and Jiraiya were all working together???

[vane]

That is a very false assumption...madara fought the first with his techs
and then there is the fact that he took, voluntarily, his brothers eyes suggesting that he does no eye techs or else y would he need his brothers eyes

Have you ever seen Tobi use any eye techs? Madara used them against the first but we still havnt seen what they are. It was never shown what he could actually do.

Majins new word...Proof

Kakashi's MS. If they all have the same techs. How come Itachi never used that one? Or how come Kakashi never used Any of the other 3?

the reason he is hunting bijuu is because he is making a weapon to start a new world in his image(he is going to eventually turn on pein)

Actually that is what Pein wants to do with them. Not Madara.

and y are u suggesting that he is some fetus who can control gods(pein) because i dont think tht pein would take orders from a fetus...do u??

Not again with this who gives orders stuff. Madara has openly admited on page 364 page 17 and 18 that he wants to make things the way they are suppose to be. His Sharingans powers. His Power. Madara Uchiha's power. Which is the EMS. So the big thing is that he more than likely doesnt have the EMS. Or that it is damaged.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

That is a very false assumption...madara fought the first with his techs

That's a very false assumption actually.
We've seen Madara fight the first with a guitar and the Kyuubi.
That's all.

and then there is the fact that he took, voluntarily, his brothers eyes suggesting that he does no eye techs or else y would he need his brothers eyes

Blindness.

the reason he is hunting bijuu is because he is making a weapon to start a new world in his image(he is going to eventually turn on pein)

My new word apparently....PROOF.

Also I can't help but make a Hitler reference to what you're saying.


and majin how is madara not 100% madara PROOF lol

Read the manga.

He has two personalities, that are similar in no way.
Goes by two names.
It's not a disguise because as revealed in one of the latest chapters everyone but Kisame knew he was "Madara".
Therefore there would be no reason for him to be in "disguise" around Deidara.
If he was 100% Madara he would be immortal, thus he would be invincible.
So we again go back to Kakashi defeating him.
SO....basically by believing he's 100% Madara you have to go back and admit that I was right to assume Kakashi will kill him because with Tsunade out of the picture, Kakashi is the only one with a technique that can kill him.

[hyuga_fan]

ok i read it

u wanna kno how i interpret it

y would more like HOW could u skip ALL of the sharingans true powers and we dont even kno wat they are

so i kno it is safe to assume that he has ALL the eye techs even the ones we dont kno about

but we should really be getting back to the REAL thread...

kakashi vs Tobi

Tobi because he was in a team of 7 2 of which were jounins(is shino a jounin??) and the rest were all chuunin(naruto is at least chuunin lvl) and kakashi still couldnt hit tobi AT ALL... so there is no way that tobi can lose to kakashi

[hyuga_fan]

sorry for double post but i apparently didnt see majins post above mine

That's a very false assumption actually.
We've seen Madara fight the first with a guitar and the Kyuubi.
That's all.
a guitar....
he summoned the kyuubi to fight the village when the 4th was around



Blindness.

he went blind from too much use of his eye techs



Read the manga.

He has two personalities, that are similar in no way.
Goes by two names.
It's not a disguise because as revealed in one of the latest chapters everyone but Kisame knew he was "Madara".
Therefore there would be no reason for him to be in "disguise" around Deidara.
If he was 100% Madara he would be immortal, thus he would be invincible.
So we again go back to Kakashi defeating him.
SO....basically by believing he's 100% Madara you have to go back and admit that I was right to assume Kakashi will kill him because with Tsunade out of the picture, Kakashi is the only one with a technique that can kill him.


That was just a front...so that no one knew he was still alive

if he just came out front and said IM MADARA then pein and madara would have surely fought

so madara had to become tobi to move up in ranks

like take sasori's place

he had to get close to pein without him noticing

so when he did get close pein could do nothing about it

[Doctor Octogonapus]

u wanna kno how i interpret it

I kinda don't but I don't think I have much of a choice.

Tobi because he was in a team of 7 2 of which were jounins(is shino a jounin??) and the rest were all chuunin(naruto is at least chuunin lvl) and kakashi still couldnt hit tobi AT ALL... so there is no way that tobi can lose to kakashi

Kakashi didn't TRY to hit Tobi that's why he didn't.
And yes there is a way.
It's a very easy way actually.
I trust you're familiar with Kakashi's Mangekyo Sharingan.
That is one of the few techniques that can beat Tobi.
That is the main reason why I believe Kakashi will beat Tobi.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

a guitar....
he summoned the kyuubi to fight the village when the 4th was around

He didn't summon Kyuubi then.
And yes...a guitar.


he went blind from too much use of his eye techs


What I said.


That was just a front...so that no one knew he was still alive

No it wasn't.
He could of killed anyone that was alive.
Why hide when you're the second strongest?

if he just came out front and said IM MADARA then pein and madara would have surely fought

No they wouldn't of.

so madara had to become tobi to move up in ranks


Akatsuki is MADARA'S organization...

he had to get close to pein without him noticing


Pein was most likely the second to know Madara was alive.

[vane]

a guitar....
he summoned the kyuubi to fight the village when the 4th was around

Actually Madara himself said he wasnt the cause of that. When he was talking to Sasuke.

That was just a front...so that no one knew he was still alive

if he just came out front and said IM MADARA then pein and madara would have surely fought

so madara had to become tobi to move up in ranks

like take sasori's place

he had to get close to pein without him noticing

so when he did get close pein could do nothing about it

No Pein knew about Madara from the begining. That is why Konan said to Pein. He is here right after the Sasuke and Diedara fight. She was saying Madara was there. And Pein was taking orders from Madara so he knew. Also how could Pein not have known. Madara started the Akatsuki. So apparently Pein was the first recruited because he is the unofficial leader. So everyone else who is there would have to think so to. Pein was and Itachi was the only ones who knew Madara was Tobi.

[hyuga_fan]

He didn't summon Kyuubi then.
And yes...a guitar.

yes he did its on the very first episode of naruto
the 4th died putting it in naruto
where is ur head at

What I said.

u just said blindness which suggests that he went blind from natural causes instead of using the sharingan

No it wasn't.
He could of killed anyone that was alive.
Why hide when you're the second strongest?

ur contradicting urself u said tht he is weak and cant do any eye techs so how is he to beat ANY of the akatsuki??

No they wouldn't of.

i see a really strong guy wanting to join my oranization and i say no and attempt to take him out, he is a threat, u dont take chances like that



Akatsuki is MADARA'S organization...

Pein formed the akatsuki madara didnt come along untill shippuden



Pein was most likely the second to know Madara was alive.

At tht time no one knew about him but konan and Pein

but not untill tobi was admitted into the akatsuki

and then he tolk kisame he was madara

and kisame said some form of kage from the rain village(i think)

so that means that madara was the strongest of the rain village

[Doctor Octogonapus]

yes he did its on the very first episode of naruto
the 4th died putting it in naruto
where is ur head at

My head's where it should be.
Where's yours?
Madara didn't summon the Kyuubi that time.


u just said blindness which suggests that he went blind from natural causes instead of using the sharingan

Does it matter what the cause was?
He was still going blind.


ur contradicting urself u said tht he is weak and cant do any eye techs so how is he to beat ANY of the akatsuki??

I'm not contradicting myself.
You just aren't understanding a word I say and please for the love of god use grammar and spelling for a change.

If he was 100% Madara he would be the second strongest ninja, under Pein of course.
Now then, why would the second strongest ninja, who's superior is his ally, need to hide?
The answer is he wouldn't.

i see a really strong guy wanting to join my oranization and i say no and attempt to take him out, he is a threat, u dont take chances like that


Not only is that logic exTREMELY flawed.
But it's incorrect in context as well.

Pein formed the akatsuki madara didnt come along untill shippuden


Madara formed Akatsuki.
Read the manga.
Tobi didn't come along until Shippuden.


At tht time no one knew about him but konan and Pein


Madara came to Itachi before the massacre.
Although I just realized you're probably right, Pein and Konan knew about him before that.


but not untill tobi was admitted into the akatsuki


No....

and then he tolk kisame he was madara

And it was then revealed that everyone else knew EXCEPT Kisame.

and kisame said some form of kage from the rain village(i think)


Mist.

so that means that madara was the strongest of the rain village

No it doesn't.
Gaara is Kazekage but Baki is stronger than him.
Pein is stronger than the Amekage.
Jiriaya was stronger than the Hokage.

[vane]

yes he did its on the very first episode of naruto
the 4th died putting it in naruto
where is ur head at

Read the chapter where Madara is talking to Sasuke. He said he wasnt the cause for that. Meaning he didnt summon the Kyuubi then.

Pein formed the akatsuki madara didnt come along untill shippuden

Wow. I mean really wow. I hate to say this but do you read the Manga. It has been stated at least twice and is just a well known thing that Madara started the Akatsuki. Many years ago. And he recruited Pein and the rest.

[hyuga_fan]

My head's where it should be.
Where's yours?
Madara didn't summon the Kyuubi that time.

I reread it I was wrong you were right...




Does it matter what the cause was?
He was still going blind.

It does matter because you are saying that Madara/Tobi doesn't have any eye techniques when he does...




I'm not contradicting myself.
You just aren't understanding a word I say and please for the love of god use grammar and spelling for a change.

You sound like my mother but for you I will change.

If he was 100% Madara he would be the second strongest ninja, under Pein of course.
Now then, why would the second strongest ninja, who's superior is his ally, need to hide?
The answer is he wouldn't.

Please give me proof to what you are saying. I don't see it anywhere that suggests that he isn't full Madara



Madara formed Akatsuki.
Read the manga.

What chapter please?

Tobi didn't come along until Shippuden.

They're the same person!!




Madara came to Itachi before the massacre.
Although I just realized you're probably right, Pein and Konan knew about him before that.

Obviously Itachi had to know Madara previous to the massacre because he is the one who taught Itachi.




And it was then revealed that everyone else knew EXCEPT Kisame.

Who else knew about Madara?



Mist.

Thank-you.



No it doesn't.
Gaara is Kazekage but Baki is stronger than him.
Pein is stronger than the Amekage.
Jiriaya was stronger than the Hokage.

Sorry if I don't know but is Baki Gaara's sensei?
Pein IS the Amekage.
Which Hokage?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

It does matter because you are saying that Madara/Tobi doesn't have any eye techniques when he does...

No I'm not.


Please give me proof to what you are saying. I don't see it anywhere that suggests that he isn't full Madara

Then you obviously haven't read the manga.


What chapter please?

Vane if you want you can cite for him.
I only cite things that isn't common knowledge regarding the manga.


They're the same person!!

No they're not.


Obviously Itachi had to know Madara previous to the massacre because he is the one who taught Itachi.

No he wasn't.
He lied to Sasuke.


Who else knew about Madara?

Kisame was the last to know.
Which is pretty huge if you ask me because that proves that Tobi is two different people. Because he was Tobi around Deidara, who knew he was Madara.

Sorry if I don't know but is Baki Gaara's sensei?
Pein IS the Amekage.
Which Hokage?

Yes Baki is.
I meant the previous one not him.
Tsunade and quite possibly Nidamine.

[vane]

Well the chapter where it is stated the clearest is chapter 386 page 11. But that is where Itachi also thought Madara was the cause of the Kyuubi 16 years ago.

But Madara said himself that he wasnt the cause of it. It was when he was talking to Sasuke.

[hyuga_fan]

Then you obviously haven't read the manga.

I have read the manga thoroughly and I still can't find it. You mind helping?




Vane if you want you can cite for him.
I only cite things that isn't common knowledge regarding the manga.

That's pretty arrogant of you.




No he wasn't.
He lied to Sasuke.

What is with these assumptions?




Kisame was the last to know.
Which is pretty huge if you ask me because that proves that Tobi is two different people. Because he was Tobi around Deidara, who knew he was Madara.

Are you saying they have different bodies or he is Schizophrenic?(Multiple personalities)



Yes Baki is.
I meant the previous one not him.
Tsunade and quite possibly Nidamine.

Gaara is actually stronger than Baki, clearly.
Well he had to be since he OVERTHREW him.
Yes I agree with this, but Jiraiya did not take the position because he was needed elsewhere, and who better but another of the Sanin?

Sorry about my absence, but I was eating.

[Smiley]

It never said that Madara formed Akatsuki.
It wasn't ever said who created it.
It's just a guess because everyone follows his orders.
And it might be true. He and Pain are the only one who have the use of Bijuus.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I have read the manga thoroughly and I still can't find it. You mind helping?

Tobi's First Appearance.
Tobi and Deidara.
Tobi meets Team 7.
Tobi only reveals half his face.
there's a lot more but I can't remember right now.

That's pretty arrogant of you.

I guess it could be, I really don't find it arrogant.
But rather not wasting time and energy(I also didn't mention that I'm switching back and forth from doing school work so I'm rushing) on something that everyone knows.
That would be almost like me providing evidence that Minato's dead.
It's something you don't expect people not to know.

What is with these assumptions?

Again, not assumptions.
Madara said this.

Are you saying they have different bodies or he is Schizophrenic?(Multiple personalities)

No, one body, two different people though.
And it's possible he's Schizophrenic but highly unlikely.

Gaara is actually stronger than Baki, clearly.

Actually no he's not.
Gaara is weaker than almost all of the Konoha 12.
Baki is stronger than almost all of the Konoha 12.


It never said that Madara formed Akatsuki.

Yes it was.
He said something about the shadows.
Formed Akatsuki in the shadows.
Something like that.

[vane]

I just gave proof that Madara formed it. Chapter 386 page 11. But then next to that pic is another saying Madara summoned the Kyuubi 16 years ago. But then read this chapter.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/15/.

So with all that being said. Madara formed Akatsuki and he wasnt behind the attack 16 years ago.

[hyuga_fan]

Didn't Majin just say that Itachi lied to Sasuke so why couldn't he have lied about that him forming the akatsuki too?

Gaara is stronger than at least half of the Konoha 12

He is stronger than, Chouji, Rock Lee, Tenten, Ino, he would tie with Shino, and thats about it. Gaara is much stronger than Baki because why would they choose someone weaker and might I mention, much younger and inexperienced.

So Gaara must be stronger than Baki.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Didn't Majin just say that Itachi lied to Sasuke so why couldn't he have lied about that too?

Because Itachi didn't say this.

[hyuga_fan]

Itachi did say that Madara formed the Akatsuki and hid within its shadows.

I just read that chapter like 2 minutes ago, seriously.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Itachi did say that Madara formed the Akatsuki and hid within its shadows.

I just read that chapter like 2 minutes ago, seriously.

Oh Itachi said that?
I thought Tobi did.

Anyway, that's a judgment call.
And as stated in another thread.
Everything he said is to be taken as false information UNLESS...unless proven otherwise.
This is proven otherwise.

[hyuga_fan]

Oh Itachi said that?
I thought Tobi did.

Anyway, that's a judgment call.
And as stated in another thread.
Everything he said is to be taken as false information UNLESS...unless proven otherwise.
This is proven otherwise.


So if everything he said was a lie than everything you said previously was false.
So Madara did not form Akatsuki
Therefore we must believe that what Madara is saying is the truth.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

So if everything he said was a lie than everything you said previously was false.
So Madara did not form Akatsuki
Therefore we must believe that what Madara is saying is the truth.

Yet we've seen Madara giving orders to Pein, and we also know Madara and Akatsuki act in the shadows.
Therefore we know that he was actually telling the truth.

[Smiley]

I just gave proof that Madara formed it. Chapter 386 page 11. But then next to that pic is another saying Madara summoned the Kyuubi 16 years ago. But then read this chapter.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/15/.

So with all that being said. Madara formed Akatsuki and he wasnt behind the attack 16 years ago.

I think that's he wasn't telling truth.
That is what he told Sasuke so Sasuke would join his side.

According to Itachi, Madara was behind the attack.
AND when Jiraiya talks to Toads he tells them that he senses that the Kyuubi's attack wasn't just a natural disaster.

[hyuga_fan]

Yet we've seen Madara giving orders to Pein, and we also know Madara and Akatsuki act in the shadows.
Therefore we know that he was actually telling the truth.

What?
You are confusing me with all of this contradiction.
Now you're saying that Itachi wasn't lying.
You need to make up your mind.
One or the other.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I think that's he wasn't telling truth.
That is what he told Sasuke so Sasuke would join his side.

According to Itachi, Madara was behind the attack.
AND when Jiraiya talks to Toads he tells them that he senses that the Kyuubi's attack wasn't just a natural disaster.

I forgot about that...although I don't see why he would summon the kyuubi then walk off.



What?
You are confusing me with all of this contradiction.
Now you're saying that Itachi wasn't lying.
You need to make up your mind.
One or the other.

I'm not contradicting myself.
Idk how the hell you drew that conclusion because I couldn't of made it clearer.

Okay....

Madara said everything Itachi said was a lie.
Yet somethings were not a lie.
One of those somethings is this.

[hyuga_fan]

I forgot about that...although I don't see why he would summon the kyuubi then walk off.

He wanted revenge...I guess.





I'm not contradicting myself.
Idk how the hell you drew that conclusion because I couldn't of made it clearer.

Okay....

Madara said everything Itachi said was a lie.
Yet somethings were not a lie.
One of those somethings is this.

So Madara making the Akatsuki just happened to be one of those somethings??
Can you name any more somethings?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

So Madara making the Akatsuki just happened to be one of those somethings??
Can you name any more somethings?

Yeah there was one other...can't remember it right now....

[hyuga_fan]

Ok.
Get back to me when you do.
I'll be waiting.
It might conclude a day-long event of debating.
It may also be my first victory over you.
But i shouldn't count my chickens before they hatch.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Ok.
Get back to me when you do.
I'll be waiting.
It might conclude a day-long event of debating.
It may also be my first victory over you.
But i shouldn't count my chickens before they hatch.

No it won't be.
Because the debate was everyone against one person.
It's already proven right I know that.

[hyuga_fan]

Who is the one person?
And what have you proven right?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I don't remember what it was.
But there was another thing Itachi said that wasn't a lie.
And mod didn't believe it.

[hyuga_fan]

Well like I said get back to me when you know.
Who is Mod, Madara?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

masterofdeath

[hyuga_fan]

Oh wow, what a cute little nickname. lol. Just playing.
Ok so i guess we can postpone this untill you recover from your sudden amnesia.
Besides, I'm going to see Hellboy The Golden Army tonight.

[vane]

Well Itachi never lied about the help he got from Madara to destroy his own clan.

I will add more as I go.

[.:Bunny:.]

Kakashi. He knows more justu, I guess...

[hyuga_fan]

Kakashi has many jutsus it's true but we have never seen him use more than 20 different jutus in every battle.
Besides, Tobi can just teleport out of the way.

[mangekyou913]

tobi will win because he is madara.

[hyuga_fan]

tobi will win because he is madara.

What does that mean.
So I can say I will win because I am hyuga_fan?
It doesn't make sense.

[wang tang]

stop saying tobi loses,we dont know how good he is yet so all we can do is guess

[hyuga_fan]

Who is saying that he is going to lose.
I'm actually saying that he will win.

[WhiteFang]

I really don't know. Guess I'll wait a while and see what exactly Tobi/Madara can do except teleportation. Kakashi's black-hole may actually have a part in this... but again we have to wait and see if he's improved it or not. Because he can activate his MS instantly now... so maybe he's been working on the black-hole.

[hyuga_fan]

I really don't know. Guess I'll wait a while and see what exactly Tobi/Madara can do except teleportation. Kakashi's black-hole may actually have a part in this... but again we have to wait and see if he's improved it or not. Because he can activate his MS instantly now... so maybe he's been working on the black-hole.

Tell me the chapter that he activated his MS instantly?

[WhiteFang]

^^Sure. Here's the link:
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/11/

[hyuga_fan]

that is a FAIL he already had it activated

once it has been activated it stays in a "sleeper" mode until sharingan goes away...DUH

[vane]

^^ I would say that is an assumption. Unless you are joking again.

[hyuga_fan]

no it is not an assumption

it is an educated GUESS

[WhiteFang]

^^ What?! It was the 3-tomoe sharingan that activated instantly to the MS. Just like Itachi's. If you don't call that instant activation... I don't know what you do... And BTW, if you did not know, Kakashi's 3-tomoe state always stays active on account of him not being an Uchiha.

[Masterofdeath]

Lol! In a way he has eternal sharingan because he will never go fully blind except for in that one eye.

[WhiteFang]

^^ No. But after going blind in the sharingan eye... he won't even have a sharingan anymore. You call that EMS?

[Kyoto]

yeah kakashi going to win

[MinatoNamikaze]

Tobi if he has Madaras full strength for sure.

[Hashirama]

That's silly, because Tobi=Madara wins this easily. It's like Tsunade vs Konohamaru.

[WhiteFang]

That's silly, because Tobi=Madara wins this easily. It's like Tsunade vs Konohamaru.

Maybe you'd like to read this.


We're not saying Madara would win.
The battle is Tobi vs. Kakashi.
Not Madara vs. Kakashi.

Idk who would win.
Logically it would be Tobi.
But story wise I'd say Kakashi.
We have no way of knowing who would with even if we knew more about Tobi.
I'm guessing this is the match up later on, Tobi vs. Kakashi.
So I'm just gonna go with let's wait and see.

That's why I think Kakashi is one of the only people that can beat him.
Tobi can dodge any attack that comes at him.
Except the Black Hole Technique.

Actually no. Tobi/Madara doesnt teach Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu or Susanoo. For one Tobi/Madara doesnt even know any eye techs right now because he has never shown any. For 2 all MS are different so far so Itachi and Madara wont have the same techs. And for three Madara's eyes are damaged or not even working at all. That is why he is on the Bijuu hunt. To make things the way they should be. His power Madara Uchiha's power. As it says in the manga. So Tobi/Madara doesnt even have anything until proven otherwise.

Have you ever seen Tobi use any eye techs? Madara used them against the first but we still havnt seen what they are. It was never shown what he could actually do.


Kakashi's MS. If they all have the same techs. How come Itachi never used that one? Or how come Kakashi never used Any of the other 3?


Actually that is what Pein wants to do with them. Not Madara.


Not again with this who gives orders stuff. Madara has openly admited on page 364 page 17 and 18 that he wants to make things the way they are suppose to be. His Sharingans powers. His Power. Madara Uchiha's power. Which is the EMS. So the big thing is that he more than likely doesnt have the EMS. Or that it is damaged.

I really don't know. Guess I'll wait a while and see what exactly Tobi/Madara can do except teleportation. Kakashi's black-hole may actually have a part in this... but again we have to wait and see if he's improved it or not. Because he can activate his MS instantly now... so maybe he's been working on the black-hole.

[Hashirama]

Maybe you'd like to read this.

Well that's interesting. However, Kakashi isn't even Akatsuki level, there is no way he could be a match for Madara. So, saying that Kakashi can defeat Madara just because Madara hadn't go all out yet is ridiculous IMO.

[WhiteFang]

^^How you make such statements is beyond me.
You make Jiraiya and Tsunade look really stupid.

And Madara can't go all out. There is something wrong with him.

[Hashirama]

^^How you make such statements is beyond me.
You make Jiraiya and Tsunade look really stupid.

And Madara can't go all out. There is something wrong with him.

What Jiraiya and Tsunade has to do with Kakashi?

Madara CAN go all out, he is a supervillain, he won't fight untill most of his underlings are dead.

[WhiteFang]

Both of them explicitly stated that Kakashi is a given for Hokage. It means Kakashi atleast has decent strength. And they must've known what they were talking about since they had a complete idea the the major threat to Konoha was currently from Akatsuki and obviously they deem him fit to protect the village.

Madara is much weaker than he was before. I'll requote vane:
Madara has openly admited on page 364 page 17 and 18 that he wants to make things the way they are suppose to be. His Sharingans powers. His Power. Madara Uchiha's power. Which is the EMS. So the big thing is that he more than likely doesnt have the EMS. Or that it is damaged.
Itachi has also stated that Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self. Madara isn't as strong, or he wouldn't of been collecting the Bijuus and hiding in the shadows.

And if you say Madara is the super villain, currently, Kakashi is the major good guy besides Naruto.

[Hashirama]

Both of them explicitly stated that Kakashi is a given for Hokage. It means Kakashi atleast has decent strength. And they must've known what they were talking about since they had a complete idea the the major threat to Konoha was currently from Akatsuki and obviously they deem him fit to protect the village.

Kakashi is strong, I've never denied this, but You're overrating him when you compare him with Madara. Konoha now lacks legendary shinobi, so Kakashi is the closest one to be the Hokage, however, that doesn't mean he is a match for Madara. Even Tsunade is lame compared to the Hokages before her, I don't think any of the first four Hokages would have get owned by Kabuto.

Madara is much weaker than he was before. I'll requote vane:

Yeah, I've debated vane about this theory once before. After all it's just a theory, not 100% proved.

Itachi has also stated that Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self. Madara isn't as strong, or he wouldn't of been collecting the Bijuus and hiding in the shadows.

Pathetic shell of his former self is a mistranslation, Itachi actually meant that Madara is a failure. Akatsuki is collecting the bijuus to creat a powerful weapon that could even destroy a whole village. According to Pein.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/11/

And if you say Madara is the super villain, currently, Kakashi is the major good guy besides Naruto.

Yes, but the supervillain is for the main character. And only the main character could defeat him.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Kakashi is strong, I've never denied this, but You're overrating him when you compare him with Madara. Konoha now lacks legendary shinobi, so Kakashi is the closest one to be the Hokage, however, that doesn't mean he is a match for Madara. Even Tsunade is lame compared to the Hokages before her, I don't think any of the first four Hokages would have get owned by Kabuto.

Ageed. Kakashi ic surrently best suited but it doenst mean hes strong. It just measn theres noone left.:D I never understood why they even considered him for hokage before.

Yeah, I've debated vane about this theory once before. After all it's just a theory, not 100% proved.

Exactly he stil has the time space thing and can put out amateratsu. Besides, not everything a character says in 100% fact. People play tricks on each other (itachi and sasuke are perfect examples).

Pathetic shell of his former self is a mistranslation, Itachi actually meant that Madara is a failure. Akatsuki is collecting the bijuus to creat a powerful weapon that could even destroy a whole village. According to Pein.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/11/

Exactly, but its probable that Madara is just using Akatsuki to regain stregnth if he is weaker.

Yes, but the supervillain is for the main character. And only the main character could defeat him.

Agreed

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Well that's interesting. However, Kakashi isn't even Akatsuki level, there is no way he could be a match for Madara. So, saying that Kakashi can defeat Madara just because Madara hadn't go all out yet is ridiculous IMO.

Read the title.
This is about Tobi not Madara.
And to prove even if he is 100% Madara, he's still weak.
Itachi said so, and "Madara" even said so himself.

[WhiteFang]

Kakashi is strong, I've never denied this, but You're overrating him when you compare him with Madara. Konoha now lacks legendary shinobi, so Kakashi is the closest one to be the Hokage, however, that doesn't mean he is a match for Madara. Even Tsunade is lame compared to the Hokages before her, I don't think any of the first four Hokages would have get owned by Kabuto.
No, I'm not overrating him. You'll see. He's one of the four main characters on the show. He has a black hole. That's the strongest tech. in the Narutoverse. Kishi didn't give it to him so that he won't even be able to use it properly, he will be able to use it better and that in all probability will be in a fight against Madara.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Kakashi wins. Logically right now I believe Tobi/Madara wins, although he really can't do anything except teleport. But storywise, its pretty obvious Kakashi will kick butt and prove Jiraiya right. It makes sense too. Kakashi's dad was sannin level, so he has the potential and should surpass the sannin.
And I don't think Tsunade is lame. In that Kabuto fight, she was quite intoxicated, was afraid of blood half the time. And as Shizune mentioned, she hadn't fought in a while, her skills were rusty. And mostly shinobi tend to show their pinnacle in their final or life/death battle. We are yet to see Tsunade's true power. She's not as weak as you are making her out to be.


Yeah, I've debated vane about this theory once before. After all it's just a theory, not 100% proved.
It ain't proved, but its solid. It has manga backing. No one can deny that Madara is weaker than he was before. As of now he just has one sharingan eye with a 3 tomoe sharingan. No MS or EMS.


Pathetic shell of his former self is a mistranslation, Itachi actually meant that Madara is a failure. Akatsuki is collecting the bijuus to creat a powerful weapon that could even destroy a whole village. According to Pein.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/374/11/
Pein could have been lying right? Because clearly their aim seems to be going in a different direction right now... i.e. destroy Konoha.

Yes, but the supervillain is for the main character. And only the main character could defeat him.
That's not how this show works. Battle combinations uptil now have been more of the type that'll be more fun to watch. Opponents suited for each other. Like Shikamaru Vs Hidan and Sasuke Vs Deidara.

Ageed. Kakashi ic surrently best suited but it doenst mean hes strong. It just measn theres noone left.:D I never understood why they even considered him for hokage before.
I value Jiraiya's opinion.


Exactly he stil has the time space thing and can put out amateratsu.
Blackhole.
Wisdom.
Ninjutsu god.

Exactly, but its probable that Madara is just using Akatsuki to regain stregnth if he is weaker.
That's probably it, and destroy/capture Konoha.

Whatever, right now, I'll side with "wait and see"

[Hashirama]

Read the title.
This is about Tobi not Madara.
And to prove even if he is 100% Madara, he's still weak.
Itachi said so, and "Madara" even said so himself.

Tobi is Madara, want proof? There is no better proof than manga panels.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/383/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/02/

Since the manga is going with Tobi = Madara, you have to accept it, untill proven otherwise.

Itachi never said that Madara is weak, he said that Madara is a failure. Actually Itachi also said that Madara is "An invincible immortal".

No, I'm not overrating him. You'll see. He's one of the four main characters on the show. He has a black hole. That's the strongest tech. in the Narutoverse. Kishi didn't give it to him so that he won't even be able to use it properly, he will be able to use it better and that in all probability will be in a fight against Madara.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Kakashi wins. Logically right now I believe Tobi/Madara wins, although he really can't do anything except teleport. But storywise, its pretty obvious Kakashi will kick butt and prove Jiraiya right. It makes sense too. Kakashi's dad was sannin level, so he has the potential and should surpass the sannin.
And I don't think Tsunade is lame. In that Kabuto fight, she was quite intoxicated, was afraid of blood half the time. And as Shizune mentioned, she hadn't fought in a while, her skills were rusty. And mostly shinobi tend to show their pinnacle in their final or life/death battle. We are yet to see Tsunade's true power. She's not as weak as you are making her out to be.

So, the black hole is the strongest technique in Narutoverse, since when? I see, you're a Kakashi fangirl huh?

You forgot to mention that Kakashi get so tired when using his MS, he even failed to kill Deidara because the technique get him very tired. However, this technique won't work on Madara. How can he miss Deidara, and get Madara who travel at the speed of light?

Please, don't say that Madara can't use anything but teleporting, just because he didn't need to use anything else yet.

Tsunade is actually weak when comparing her with the former Hokages. I know she was scared of blood and all. That's not an execuse for her to get pwned, her weak point is what makes her weak. And she only pwned Kabuto after shortening her life.




It ain't proved, but its solid. It has manga backing. No one can deny that Madara is weaker than he was before. As of now he just has one sharingan eye with a 3 tomoe sharingan. No MS or EMS.

I remember what you said in the debate about the six elements. You told me "stop making your opinions as facts", I'll go with your logic and tell you the same. MS/EMS don't takes it's shape untill the user activates it, so that's not a proof that he don't have EMS. And again don't say that he can't do it, just because he didn't do it.

Itachi said to Sasuke "There is a third Mangekyo Sharingan user". Reffering to Madara. That means that Madara at least has MS.



Pein could have been lying right? Because clearly their aim seems to be going in a different direction right now... i.e. destroy Konoha.

Why would Pein lie? He knew that Jiraiya is gonna die, so lying is pointless. By hunting the bijuus, Akatsuki will have a weapon that could destroy a village, so, why don't they use that weapon on Konoha?


That's not how this show works. Battle combinations uptil now have been more of the type that'll be more fun to watch. Opponents suited for each other. Like Shikamaru Vs Hidan and Sasuke Vs Deidara.

Let Shikamaru kill some fodders like Hidan. However, Naruto will kill the final villain that is Uchiha Madara. So, that's how all Shonen works, in Bleach, Ichigo will kill Aizen. In One Piece, Luffy will defeat Blackbeard. In Naruto, Naruto will kill Uchiha Madara. Final villain = the strongest shit in the series, but then the main character comes and kick his ass. That's that.

[WhiteFang]

Tobi is Madara, want proof? There is no better proof than manga panels.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/383/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/02/

Since the manga is going with Tobi = Madara, you have to accept it, untill proven otherwise.

I already know that.

Itachi never said that Madara is weak, he said that Madara is a failure. Actually Itachi also said that Madara is "An invincible immortal".

If he is a so called invincible immortal... then why the heck has Madara been acting like a brain dead fool most of the time. Invincible immortal means one who can't be killed or defeated. So he can just single handedly destroy Konoha. Why did he form an organization like Akatsuki and hide in its shadows? Why does he say that things need to be made the way they should be. Its because it is fact that he is much weaker than he used to be.

So, the black hole is the strongest technique in Narutoverse, since when?
Referring to the technique itself, I believe yes. Susanoo and Amaterasu are the other 2 which match up. It can suck stuff up into the next dimension, and something that's going there ain't coming back. We don't even know the limitations of that dimensional barrier. And Kakashi blasted an entire explosion
into the next dimension. So yeah, it is kickass. And I'm not the only one who believes so, its obvious to everyone that this is a unique and very powerful ninjutsu.
Kakashi's Mangekyo is pretty major. I think logically it is the most powerful jutsu living in the Naruto universe to date. Anything that gets sucked into the black hole is not coming back.

I see, you're a Kakashi fangirl huh?
This was uncalled for. Everyone on the forum can back me up on how biased you are. And trust me, I like Kakashi, a lot, yes. But never once has that clouded my judgment. I know that and all the good debaters here know that. You are as always, interpreting my statements incorrectly. Talking about the blackhole, I was referring to the tech. itself. Susanoo kills Itachi, doesn't mean its crap. He's barely able to stand after 2 shots of Amaterasu, so, does the tech. itself suck? Hell no it does not. Similarly, logically the black hole is the most powerful ninjutsu.

You forgot to mention that Kakashi get so tired when using his MS, he even failed to kill Deidara because the technique get him very tired. However, this technique won't work on Madara. How can he miss Deidara, and get Madara who travel at the speed of light?
Again, I already know what you are ranting about.
Kakashi ended up bedridden after 3 shots. I know the accuracy and timing is an issue with the technique. At this point of time it isn't that useful. However, the tech has potential. Only the black hole can hit the un hittable. You can make any attack phase through you, but a dimensional hole will hit.
My... what is your problem? Did I say Kakashi will hit Madara? NO. I didn't even imply that. I was just discussing the potential of the technique. Sheesh... go re read my post.
Logically right now I believe Tobi/Madara wins,

Please, don't say that Madara can't use anything but teleporting, just because he didn't need to use anything else yet.

I will say that. It is fact. All Madara has shown is teleporting and blocking Suigetsu's sword with one hand.
All we know of Madara is his past glory.
Nothing of now.
The present.
And I won't buy that he can do what he did 130 years ago.
Till his super powerful techs. are shown in the manga, he can't do much except teleport.

Tsunade is actually weak when comparing her with the former Hokages. I know she was scared of blood and all. That's not an execuse for her to get pwned, her weak point is what makes her weak. And she only pwned Kabuto after shortening her life.
In comparison to the previous Hokages, yes. Although I'd like to rethink about the 2nd. And blood fear is no longer her weak point.
We haven't seen her fight all out anyway. So again, waiting game.
But I'd like to mention that she has a huge slug. Katsui can crush many many people just like that. That coupled with her regen tech. is actually very handy.

I remember what you said in the debate about the six elements. You told me "stop making your opinions as facts", I'll go with your logic and tell you the same. MS/EMS don't takes it's shape untill the user activates it, so that's not a proof that he don't have EMS. And again don't say that he can't do it, just because he didn't do it.

There is also no proof that he has a functioning EMS till he activates it and shows it to us. Fact. Maybe he doesn't do it coz he can't do it anymore. You're a Madara fanboy, I see.

Itachi said to Sasuke "There is a third Mangekyo Sharingan user". Reffering to Madara. That means that Madara at least has MS.
Which we don't know what it does or doesn't do, so we can't comment on its power.

Why would Pein lie? He knew that Jiraiya is gonna die, so lying is pointless. By hunting the bijuus, Akatsuki will have a weapon that could destroy a village, so, why don't they use that weapon on Konoha?
Yeah. That's correct. And further proves the fact that Madara is not an invincible immortal, otherwise why the heck would he need to create such a weapon.


Let Shikamaru kill some fodders like Hidan. However, Naruto will kill the final villain that is Uchiha Madara. So, that's how all Shonen works, in Bleach, Ichigo will kill Aizen. In One Piece, Luffy will defeat Blackbeard. In Naruto, Naruto will kill Uchiha Madara. Final villain = the strongest shit in the series, but then the main character comes and kick his ass. That's that.
Since when did you become the writer?
Where the hell is it said that Madara is the final villain?
Who the heck says that loon is the strongest?
Get a reality check. PEIN is currently the strongest guy on the show. Madara is a 130 year old who can just teleport.
Had you suggested this as a theory.. it would have been okay. But coming out and saying this like a know it all just makes you look stupid.

[Sapphire]

Of course Tobi would won, Kakashi isn't that strong..:blink:

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Tobi is Madara, want proof? There is no better proof than manga panels.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/383/14/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/404/02/

Since the manga is going with Tobi = Madara, you have to accept it, untill proven otherwise.

I'm not denying they didn't say that. But the fact that Kishimoto has time after time avoided showing us his face is too suspicious for me to not acknowledge.

Itachi never said that Madara is weak, he said that Madara is a failure. Actually Itachi also said that Madara is "An invincible immortal".

No, he said Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self.
And he was later said that everything Itachi said was a lie.
Therefore that leaves us at a difference in belief.
Clearly some of the things he said were true, and one of the two things he said about Madara had to be true as well. The only problem is we have no way of truly knowing which one was true and which one wasn't.


So, the black hole is the strongest technique in Narutoverse, since when? I see, you're a Kakashi fangirl huh?

Since it's been a Black Hole.
In case you missed 4th grade science lemme fill you in.
A Black Hole, cannot be escaped, not even light can escape it.
Once you're in it's path, you're screwed and not even the 4th can escape it.

You forgot to mention that Kakashi get so tired when using his MS

He gets so tired he can only use it one more time.

he even failed to kill Deidara because the technique get him very tired.

Which time?
The first time?
The first time both of them were moving, Kakashi mainly. Kakashi was jumping from log to log, which seriously impairs his aim.
Knowing you, you'll probably deny that so go outside with a BB gun and jump on a trampoline or whatever, try and hit a bullseye from about 35 feet away at an angle, let's see how good you do.
The second time, he hit Deidara dead on, it just wasn't Deidara.

How can he miss Deidara, and get Madara who travel at the speed of light?

Because it doesn't matter how fast you move, you can't escape a black hole.

Tsunade is actually weak when comparing her with the former Hokages.

Aside from Nidamine that's true.

I know she was scared of blood and all.

Not anymore.

However, Naruto will kill the final villain that is Uchiha Madara.


Wrong.
Tobi isn't the final villain nor will he kill him.
As I've stated before, only Kakashi can kill Tobi, and again, he will kill Tobi.
Naruto will most likely fight Sasuke one last time, seeing as Hawk and Akatsuki(Kisame and Tobi) are attacking the village at the same time and I've already figured the most likely scenario judging by the manga and hints from Kishimoto's interviews.
Naruto will most likely fight Sasuke.
Kakashi will fight Tobi.
Lee will most likely fight Kisame.
Sai will fight Suigetsu.
Sakura will most likely fight Karin.
and Yamato will most likely fight Juugo.

In Naruto, Naruto will kill Uchiha Madara. Final villain = the strongest shit in the series, but then the main character comes and kick his ass. That's that.

You just proved yourself wrong.
The Strongest "Shit" in the series is clearly not Madara.
Pein is stronger than Tobi, Pein or Kabumaru will be the final villain.
It's fitting that Kabumaru is the final villain, because Pein and Tobi are both new. Kabumaru has been the villain since the 3rd story arc, pretty much all the series.
Either way, Naruto won't kill Tobi.

[Smiley]

I'd love to add something in the matter of Kakashi's time/space warp.
It's not a real black hole. Technically, Tobi can escape it with his time/space jutsu considering it moves at the speed of light.
If it was like the real black-hole it would have sucked up Deidara and all the objects around him in blink of an eye(in gravity field of real black-holes objects move faster or at the speed of light).

So no, Kakashi's time/space warp is much much smaller and weaker than the real black hole.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I'd love to add something in the matter of Kakashi's time/space warp.
It's not a real black hole. Technically, Tobi can escape it with his time/space jutsu considering it moves at the speed of light.
If it was like the real black-hole it would have sucked up Deidara and all the objects around him in blink of an eye(in gravity field of real black-holes objects move faster or at the speed of light).

So no, Kakashi's time/space warp is much much smaller and weaker than the real black hole.

Obviously, it's much smaller and weaker, but still is a black hole regardless of it's size and strength.

And Tobi can't escape it with his time-space jutsu.
Whatever part of him was already hit would stay there and be ripped off.

[MinatoNamikaze]

You just proved yourself wrong.
The Strongest "Shit" in the series is clearly not Madara.
Pein is stronger than Tobi, Pein or Kabumaru will be the final villain.
It's fitting that Kabumaru is the final villain, because Pein and Tobi are both new. Kabumaru has been the villain since the 3rd story arc, pretty much all the series.
Either way, Naruto won't kill Tobi.

Agreed. I dont think he will even fight Tobi. The only way this may happen is if kishi decides to make a battle with a connection between Madaras EMS and its ability to control the kyubi (naruto).

[Doctor Octogonapus]

^^Actually Kakashi has to fight Tobi because only he can kill him.

[MinatoNamikaze]

^^Actually Kakashi has to fight Tobi because only he can kill him.

Agreed. MS vs MS right. Is that what your thinking?

[MinatoNamikaze]

Obviously, it's much smaller and weaker, but still is a black hole regardless of it's size and strength.

And Tobi can't escape it with his time-space jutsu.
Whatever part of him was already hit would stay there and be ripped off.

Again agreed. He could only avoid it if nothing on his body was in the black hole.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Agreed. MS vs MS right. Is that what your thinking?

No, The black hole technique is the only way to kill Tobi.
Unless someone else knows the death seal jutsu.

[MinatoNamikaze]

No, The black hole technique is the only way to kill Tobi.
Unless someone else knows the death seal jutsu.

Oh I see. Thats true. Alothough there is a possiblity that naruto's rasenshuriken combined with his sage training could also destroy him, but I think hell save that one for Pein;) :D

[Doctor Octogonapus]

The Rasenshurikan is the same as Rasengan, it will go through Tobi.
And Naruto won't kill Pein alone, he'll be completely demolished if he fought Pein alone.

[MinatoNamikaze]

The Rasenshurikan is the same as Rasengan, it will go through Tobi.
And Naruto won't kill Pein alone, he'll be completely demolished if he fought Pein alone.

Oh ya your right. i forgot Tobi has the timespace thing. So your right. kakshi is the only one who can beat him.

And Im not sure how he will beat pein. His new training will make him surpass Jiriya and apparently jiriya would have beat pein if he knew his secret. So if Naruto<Jiriya and Jiriya is almost = with Pein than Naruto armed with peins secret should be able to take him by himslef. However naruto isint smart enough yet.

ANd I think to finish off the manga and make it a happy ending, naruto will have all his friends behind him in the battle.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

And Im not sure how he will beat pein. His new training will make him surpass Jiriya and apparently jiriya would have beat pein if he knew his secret. So if Naruto<Jiriya and Jiriya is almost = with Pein than Naruto armed with peins secret should be able to take him by himslef. However naruto isint smart enough yet.

No no.
Even with the sage training Naruto still isn't as good as Jiriaya was.

ANd I think to finish off the manga and make it a happy ending, naruto will have all his friends behind him in the battle.

I think it'll be Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke to beat Pein. Although that still leaves the question, what of Kabumaru?

[Smiley]

Tobi can teleport his body parts as good his whole body.
If any of his arms or legs are targetted by Kakashi's time/space warp he can teleport them and afterwards, his whole body.
It's pretty clear that Kakashi's time/space warp is much much slower than the speed of light, it took him several manga pages just to suck up Deidara's hand.
Thus, Tobi has plenty of time to escape it and save all of his body parts, considering that he moves at the speed of light, he can complete it in less than a second.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Tobi can teleport his body parts as good his whole body.

His body PARTS?
You're suggesting that Tobi can at any moment, detach his leg make it teleport anywhere, and then he can reattach it later?
The reattachment thing I agree with, but not the detachment thing. And if that's the case then Tobi technically is not alive.

It's pretty clear that Kakashi's time/space warp is much much slower than the speed of light, it took him several manga pages just to suck up Deidara's hand.

So?
Manga pages aren't relative to time.
Over the course of two pages it went from Present day to 3 years later.

Thus, Tobi has plenty of time to escape it and save all of his body parts, considering that he moves at the speed of light, he can complete it in less than a second.

So what do you suggest?
That Tobi stay alive?
Cause you know as well as I do that can't happen, and Kakashi is the only person that can kill Tobi unless Tsunade knows the Death Seal Jutsu.

[Smiley]

His body PARTS?
You're suggesting that Tobi can at any moment, detach his leg make it teleport anywhere, and then he can reattach it later?
The reattachment thing I agree with, but not the detachment thing. And if that's the case then Tobi technically is not alive.


http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/10/
That and, we saw Naruto's attack phasing through him, meaning that he removed his stomach, teleported it somewhere, and as soon as rasengan phased through him, he put it back.


So?
Manga pages aren't relative to time.
Over the course of two pages it went from Present day to 3 years later

I know, still, it was much slower than the speed of light.
On the pages between the activation of the black hole, and Deidara's arm being sucked up we saw Deidara thinking how to escape the jutsu, Naruto talking about how the jutsu is amazing.
If it was the speed of light, Deidara's arm would've been gone before anyone could notice.


So what do you suggest?
That Tobi stay alive?
Cause you know as well as I do that can't happen, and Kakashi is the only person that can kill Tobi unless Tsunade knows the Death Seal Jutsu

Remember - there's a secret behind the jutsu that if Itachi had known, Tobi would have been killed by Amaterasu.
Either that or Kakashi will improve his black hole so it can suck up objects faster than the speed of light.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/10/
That and, we saw Naruto's attack phasing through him, meaning that he removed his stomach, teleported it somewhere, and as soon as rasengan phased through him, he put it back.

I know after I finished that paragraph I remembered that fight.


On the pages between the activation of the black hole, and Deidara's arm being sucked up we saw Deidara thinking how to escape the jutsu, Naruto talking about how the jutsu is amazing.
If it was the speed of light, Deidara's arm would've been gone before anyone could notice.

Huh...so it may actually come down to what me and Namikaze were talking about.

[MinatoNamikaze]

No no.
Even with the sage training Naruto still isn't as good as Jiriaya was.

Well the frog said he would be training to surpass Jiriya, like Kakshi said naruto was training to surpass Kakashi. So I think he will. He wont be as smart, but I think as strong. Heres the link to the page BTW.

(sorry i cant find it right now. But I remmebr reading the head toad say that this time Naruto will be training to surpass Jiriya.

I think it'll be Naruto, Sakura and Sasuke to beat Pein. Although that still leaves the question, what of Kabumaru?

I agree with you. And thats a good question, what about Kabumaru. It is possible Kabuto is like a double agent and will end up becoming a good guy in the end, but I highly doubt it. lathough he did help naruto many times in the past.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Well the frog said he would be training to surpass Jiriya, like Kakshi said naruto was training to surpass Kakashi. So I think he will. He wont be as smart, but I think as strong. Heres the link to the page BTW.

If he does, I'm gonna laugh my ass off when everyone is still bitching about Sasuke's strength.

I agree with you. And thats a good question, what about Kabumaru. It is possible Kabuto is like a double agent and will end up becoming a good guy in the end, but I highly doubt it. lathough he did help naruto many times in the past.

I'd say Sasuke would fight him, although how they would fit that in, I don't really know.

[MinatoNamikaze]

If he does, I'm gonna laugh my ass off when everyone is still bitching about Sasuke's strength.

I know it would be funny. Its sucks how short it takes for anruto to get so strong. I know you dislike that aswell, but I definetly see that comming if Naruto is to become the greates shinobi of all time (better than all the hokages so pretty much greatest of all time) which is what his goal is.

I'd say Sasuke would fight him, although how they would fit that in, I don't really know.

Agreed. It would be a stretch to fit sasuke fitting him. Although he could always say orois back to take out sasuke so sasuke must fight him i guess, kinda sucks but who knows.

[Smiley]

Huh...so it may actually come down to what me and Namikaze were talking about.

Eh? :S
Anyway, as we concluded and all agree now(hopefully) Kakashi's current time/space warp can't beat Tobi.

More likely there's a secret behind the technique that they'll have to learn in order to beat him.
As for Kabumaru, my guess is that he'll be fighting on the Leaf's side when Sasuke attacks it.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I was thinking along the same lines as you about Kabuto.

[Hashirama]

I already know that.

:huh:
That was to majin.



If he is a so called invincible immortal... then why the heck has Madara been acting like a brain dead fool most of the time. Invincible immortal means one who can't be killed or defeated. So he can just single handedly destroy Konoha. Why did he form an organization like Akatsuki and hide in its shadows? Why does he say that things need to be made the way they should be. Its because it is fact that he is much weaker than he used to be.

Even the strongest ninja in the Narutoverse can't defeat a village like Konoha all alone. No matter how strong he is and whether he is an invincible immortal or not. Nobody is actually immortal or invincible, Pein is called invincible and has never lost a battle, why did he join Akatsuki? Why don't he just accomplish his plans all by himself? Hidan was immortal, yet he was nothing but fodder had been defeated by Shikamaru. Everybody knows that in the end Madara will get his ass kicked, even if he is an invincible immortal, Madara is actually immortal because he lived like more than 100 years and survived the fight with Shodai, and his technique to remove any part of his body makes him invincible. In the end he will get killed though.

Referring to the technique itself, I believe yes. Susanoo and Amaterasu are the other 2 which match up. It can suck stuff up into the next dimension, and something that's going there ain't coming back. We don't even know the limitations of that dimensional barrier. And Kakashi blasted an entire explosion
into the next dimension. So yeah, it is kickass. And I'm not the only one who believes so, its obvious to everyone that this is a unique and very powerful ninjutsu.

I agree with you, the black hole is one hell of a technique, however, I don't think it's the strongest in Narutoverse. There is "unavoidable" techniques such as Amaterasu and Kirin, but the black hole, unlike the real black hole, is not unavoidable.



This was uncalled for. Everyone on the forum can back me up on how biased you are. And trust me, I like Kakashi, a lot, yes. But never once has that clouded my judgment. I know that and all the good debaters here know that. You are as always, interpreting my statements incorrectly. Talking about the blackhole, I was referring to the tech. itself. Susanoo kills Itachi, doesn't mean its crap. He's barely able to stand after 2 shots of Amaterasu, so, does the tech. itself suck? Hell no it does not. Similarly, logically the black hole is the most powerful ninjutsu.

Looks like you took that personally. by calling you a Kakashi fangirl I didn't mean that you're a tard. I just meant that Kakashi is your favourite character. Don't get me wrong.

Actually, Susano'o doesn't kill Itachi, that was just what Zetsu thought when he saw Itachi coughing blood. But actually Itachi had a disease from the beggining.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/393/02/




Again, I already know what you are ranting about.
Kakashi ended up bedridden after 3 shots. I know the accuracy and timing is an issue with the technique. At this point of time it isn't that useful. However, the tech has potential. Only the black hole can hit the un hittable. You can make any attack phase through you, but a dimensional hole will hit.
My... what is your problem? Did I say Kakashi will hit Madara? NO. I didn't even imply that. I was just discussing the potential of the technique. Sheesh... go re read my post.

Well, the topic is about Tobi vs. Kakashi, I thought that you mean that the technique will hit Madara. :huh:
But yeah the technique won't be useful, especially against Madara. first, he takes a lot of time to activates it. Second, the accuracy is bad. Third, it makes Kakashi very tired.





I will say that. It is fact. All Madara has shown is teleporting and blocking Suigetsu's sword with one hand.
All we know of Madara is his past glory.
Nothing of now.
The present.
And I won't buy that he can do what he did 130 years ago.
Till his super powerful techs. are shown in the manga, he can't do much except teleport.

If he can't do much, then a very powerful ninjas like Akatsuki members wouldn't have obeyed him, even the GOD that is Pein. And more important, he wouldn't be the closest one to be the final villain.

Plus, it's not like Madara is a ghost or something just because nothing hits him, he pwned Naruto once before if you remember. v.v

Kakashi said it, Madara's Time/Space no Jutsu is even more advanced than the fourth's, OMG WTF? Madara is a badass indeed. The perfect character to be the final villain.


In comparison to the previous Hokages, yes. Although I'd like to rethink about the 2nd. And blood fear is no longer her weak point.
We haven't seen her fight all out anyway. So again, waiting game.
But I'd like to mention that she has a huge slug. Katsui can crush many many people just like that. That coupled with her regen tech. is actually very handy.

Well, it isn't revealed if she had got rid of her fear of blood forever. Yeah I know she has a huge slug. However, that's nothing compared to Shodai's army of bijuus, or Sarutobi's Enma, or Minato's Hirashin. But to be fair, she is now the strongest ninja in Konoha.

There is also no proof that he has a functioning EMS till he activates it and shows it to us. Fact. Maybe he doesn't do it coz he can't do it anymore. You're a Madara fanboy, I see.

You have to go with "Madara has EMS" because we know that Madara had EMS, but we don't know if he don't have EMS now. So, he has EMS untill proven otherwise. Also, He didn't do it because he didn't need to. A question for you. So far, was there a situation that would make Madara need to activate his EMS yet?

Also, why do the greatest Dojutsu, the Rin'negan, obey a normal Sharingan?


Which we don't know what it does or doesn't do, so we can't comment on its power.

Trust me, it does a lot. It's like MS without side effects.


Yeah. That's correct. And further proves the fact that Madara is not an invincible immortal, otherwise why the heck would he need to create such a weapon.

I'm glad you find me correct for the first time. Well, I've wrote what I think about "invincible immortal" in the above.





Since when did you become the writer?
Where the hell is it said that Madara is the final villain?
Who the heck says that loon is the strongest?
Get a reality check. PEIN is currently the strongest guy on the show. Madara is a 130 year old who can just teleport.
Had you suggested this as a theory.. it would have been okay. But coming out and saying this like a know it all just makes you look stupid.

I didn't become the writer, I'm just saying the obvious. Pein will probably soon be killed by Naruto. so the one who will become the final villain is Madara (obvious). Why Pein is the strongest? He gets orders from Madara, that makes no sense at all. And since when did YOU become the writer? Madara is supposed to be able to do a lot more than teleporting, just look at how easily he blocked Zabuza'a sword, and how he pwned Naruto, Those are just a hints on how strong Madara is.

I'm not denying they didn't say that. But the fact that Kishimoto has time after time avoided showing us his face is too suspicious for me to not acknowledge.

Yeah, I've noticed that. However, that's Kishi's style, look at how he made us to wait to see Pein's face.



No, he said Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self.
And he was later said that everything Itachi said was a lie.
Therefore that leaves us at a difference in belief.
Clearly some of the things he said were true, and one of the two things he said about Madara had to be true as well. The only problem is we have no way of truly knowing which one was true and which one wasn't.

Again. Pathetic shell of his former self is a mistranslation. Madara didn't say that everything Itachi said is a lie, he just denied that he took his brother's eyes by force, and that he is the one responsible for the Kyuubi attack.



Aside from Nidamine that's true.


We don't know much about him.


Not anymore.

Well, as I said. We don't know if she'd got rid of this forever. In that battle she got rid of her fear because everyone was going to die.



Wrong.
Tobi isn't the final villain nor will he kill him.
As I've stated before, only Kakashi can kill Tobi, and again, he will kill Tobi.
Naruto will most likely fight Sasuke one last time, seeing as Hawk and Akatsuki(Kisame and Tobi) are attacking the village at the same time and I've already figured the most likely scenario judging by the manga and hints from Kishimoto's interviews.
Naruto will most likely fight Sasuke.
Kakashi will fight Tobi.
Lee will most likely fight Kisame.
Sai will fight Suigetsu.
Sakura will most likely fight Karin.
and Yamato will most likely fight Juugo.

Speculations?



You just proved yourself wrong.
The Strongest "Shit" in the series is clearly not Madara.
Pein is stronger than Tobi, Pein or Kabumaru will be the final villain.
It's fitting that Kabumaru is the final villain, because Pein and Tobi are both new. Kabumaru has been the villain since the 3rd story arc, pretty much all the series.
Either way, Naruto won't kill Tobi.

Kabutomaru, the final villain? I don't think so. He is now going after Sasuke, just to get revenge for his Oro-Sama. And after he kill Sasuke, even though he can't kill him, he will go after Naruto. A villain with such a small ambitions won't be the final villain. IMO Kabutomaru is a fodder has been made to hype Sasuke's Mangekyo. Pein is soon going to fight Naruto, and Naruto want to get revenge, so, Pein is gonna die. That's too bad, Pein is one of my favourite characters. :(

About the black hole. Smiley actually took the words right out of my mouth.

[AngelRenegade999]

I think this fight will happen on the show eventually. Madara Uchiha will probably win. But I think Kakashi might surprise us with a handful of new techniques and battle strategies, that we haven't seen from him as of yet, for the face that, this fight will probably be the most important fight in all of his fights on the show. I think we haven't seen 90% of what Kakashi can really do. I think Madara will reveal alot more techniques, battle strategies, and even some mysteries behind who he really is, that will make this fight a very interesting one to watch.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Eh? :S
Anyway, as we concluded and all agree now(hopefully) Kakashi's current time/space warp can't beat Tobi.

Well there are only 2 moves that can beat Tobi.
One of which is most likely non-existent.

Even the strongest ninja in the Narutoverse can't defeat a village like Konoha all alone.

Pein, the strongest ninja in the Narutoverse, defeated a village like Konoha alone.

Nobody is actually immortal or invincible, Pein is called invincible and has never lost a battle, why did he join Akatsuki? Why don't he just accomplish his plans all by himself? Hidan was immortal, yet he was nothing but fodder had been defeated by Shikamaru.

Hidan was the only true immortal, I believe he stabbed himself in the chest 3 times on screen.
He would be dead after one.


even if he is an invincible immortal, Madara is actually immortal because he lived like more than 100 years and survived the fight with Shodai, and his technique to remove any part of his body makes him invincible. In the end he will get killed though.

Of course he will, that was my point.
There are only two moves that can kill Tobi.

I agree with you, the black hole is one hell of a technique, however, I don't think it's the strongest in Narutoverse. There is "unavoidable" techniques such as Amaterasu and Kirin, but the black hole, unlike the real black hole, is not unavoidable.

Ameratsu was avoided and while Kirin can't be avoided without some freaky-ass speed, it's technically not a technique. It's like Frieza's technique in DBZ that he used to destroy Namek. It takes a technique to use, and it doesn't have a sure fire chance of happening, but even if it does, you don't control it in anyway.

Third, it makes Kakashi very tired.

Yet he had enough energy to use it twice, then walk back to the Sand Village.

If he can't do much, then a very powerful ninjas like Akatsuki members wouldn't have obeyed him, even the GOD that is Pein. And more important, he wouldn't be the closest one to be the final villain.

Wrong.
If Tobi is indeed Madara, then Madara is the Founder and Leader of Akatsuki, regardless of strength, it's his organization.
You don't see people in the business world dethroning the President of their power just because one person does more than the President.

Kakashi said it, Madara's Time/Space no Jutsu is even more advanced than the fourth's, OMG WTF? Madara is a badass indeed. The perfect character to be the final villain.

Actually no, he's not the perfect character to be the final villain because Naruto and Sasuke both obviously have to have the final fight and neither of them have anything near the capability of defeating Madara. Only Kakashi or arguably Tsunade can beat Tobi.

You have to go with "Madara has EMS" because we know that Madara had EMS, but we don't know if he don't have EMS now. So, he has EMS untill proven otherwise. Also, He didn't do it because he didn't need to. A question for you. So far, was there a situation that would make Madara need to activate his EMS yet?

Actually it's the other way around.
We have no proof that Tobi does have EMS because we have no SOLID proof that Tobi is in fact Madara.
We've yet to see solid proof of Tobi having EMS, just like we've yet to see solid proof of Tobi being Madara.


Also, why do the greatest Dojutsu, the Rin'negan, obey a normal Sharingan?


The same reason the strongest military in the world obeys a normal jackass.
Because that jackass is the LEADER!



Trust me, it does a lot. It's like MS without side effects.


Which is what I just said.

Pein will probably soon be killed by Naruto.

Not a chance.
Pein is too strong for anyone who's alive.
It would take Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke together to POSSIBLY beat Pein.

so the one who will become the final villain is Madara (obvious).

No, it's just obvious to you.

Why Pein is the strongest? He gets orders from Madara, that makes no sense at all.

Yes, it makes perfect sense.
It makes no sense to YOU.
Pein is the strongest, clearly that's true.
Madara is the LEADER.
You don't have to be the strongest to be the leader.
Proof?
Every country that ever existed after Roman and Greek times.


And since when did YOU become the writer?


Did I ever once say I was?
No, I didn't.
So don't say, or even imply that I said something as asinine as that, okay?

Again. Pathetic shell of his former self is a mistranslation.

Show me proof of the mistranslation.


Well, as I said. We don't know if she'd got rid of this forever. In that battle she got rid of her fear because everyone was going to die.

She did surgery on Chouji and is doing an autopsy now.
Could someone do either of those things with a fear of blood?

Speculations?

Most likely they will end up true in some way because it makes sense, and so what if they are speculations? Almost everything you've said here is speculation as well.


Pein is soon going to fight Naruto, and Naruto want to get revenge, so, Pein is gonna die. That's too bad, Pein is one of my favourite characters. :(

Of course Pein is going to die, but I disagree in regards of when he will die.
Naruto will have to master the Sage techniques before leaving, and that will take a while, longer than it will for Hawk to defeat the 8-tails and move out for Konoha. At best they will both arrive back at Konoha at the same time.

[Hashirama]

Well there are only 2 moves that can beat Tobi.
One of which is most likely non-existent.

Madara has a secret that makes him invincible.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/10/
I think that Naruto will know that secret and defeat him.


Pein, the strongest ninja in the Narutoverse, defeated a village like Konoha alone.

Page please. v.v



Hidan was the only true immortal, I believe he stabbed himself in the chest 3 times on screen.
He would be dead after one.

Well, yeah Hidan was the only true immortal in the manga. His head got cut off and he was still alive, damn.




Of course he will, that was my point.
There are only two moves that can kill Tobi.

What moves?



Ameratsu was avoided and while Kirin can't be avoided without some freaky-ass speed, it's technically not a technique. It's like Frieza's technique in DBZ that he used to destroy Namek. It takes a technique to use, and it doesn't have a sure fire chance of happening, but even if it does, you don't control it in anyway.

Amaterasu wasn't avoided, if I remember correctly Sasuke blocked it by his "wing", even Madara didn't avoid it, he just can remove any part of his body. Kirin is a badass technique indeed, it doesn't matter if you don't control it, it's just enough that it hits the target.



Yet he had enough energy to use it twice, then walk back to the Sand Village.

Gai carried him on his back. And after that he slept in the hospital for weeks XD



Wrong.
If Tobi is indeed Madara, then Madara is the Founder and Leader of Akatsuki, regardless of strength, it's his organization.
You don't see people in the business world dethroning the President of their power just because one person does more than the President.

Well, that doesn't work in the Narutoverse. The Hokage is not just an old man who make decisions, he is the strongest man in the village. So, in the Narutoverse, the leader = the strongest.



Actually no, he's not the perfect character to be the final villain because Naruto and Sasuke both obviously have to have the final fight and neither of them have anything near the capability of defeating Madara. Only Kakashi or arguably Tsunade can beat Tobi.


Sasuke could be Naruto's final opponent, but not as a villain. Madara is the man behind the most powerful evil organization, so it's obvious that he is the final villain. That always happen. In bleach, Aizen is the man behind the Espada, so he is obviously the final villain.


Actually it's the other way around.
We have no proof that Tobi does have EMS because we have no SOLID proof that Tobi is in fact Madara.
We've yet to see solid proof of Tobi having EMS, just like we've yet to see solid proof of Tobi being Madara.

Tobi = Madara is a fact. It doesn't require a proof, but if we are now going to have a debate about whether Tobi is Madara or not, we will go off-topic. So you have to go with Tobi=Madara, at least for now.




The same reason the strongest military in the world obeys a normal jackass.
Because that jackass is the LEADER!

As I said, in Narutoverse, the leader is the strongest.





Which is what I just said.

Huh?



Not a chance.
Pein is too strong for anyone who's alive.
It would take Naruto, Sakura, and Sasuke together to POSSIBLY beat Pein.

Nah. Naruto said that he is gonna avenge Jiraiya, so he WILL avenge Jiraiya, he is the main character, remember?


No, it's just obvious to you.

Then who will be the final villain, Kisame?


Yes, it makes perfect sense.
It makes no sense to YOU.
Pein is the strongest, clearly that's true.
Madara is the LEADER.
You don't have to be the strongest to be the leader.
Proof?
Every country that ever existed after Roman and Greek times.

A village is like a big organization. In the village, the leader is the strongest, same for the Akatsuki. We are talking about a ninja world.





Did I ever once say I was?
No, I didn't.
So don't say, or even imply that I said something as asinine as that, okay?

lolwut?
That was to WhiteFang. :lmao:
Actually, almost everything you've just quoted was oroginally wrote to WhiteFang. It's funny because once before, even WhiteFang have quoted something I've originally wrote to you, but she thought that I wrote it to her.



Show me proof of the mistranslation.

It's not like I would lie to you.

I'm just too lazy to bring you a proof, you can check it out at NF if you want.



She did surgery on Chouji and is doing an autopsy now.
Could someone do either of those things with a fear of blood?

She was doing surgeries even before the sannins fight.



Most likely they will end up true in some way because it makes sense, and so what if they are speculations? Almost everything you've said here is speculation as well.

Speculations are speculations, facts are facts. Also, I disagree with you on some of the fights you've mentioned.




Of course Pein is going to die, but I disagree in regards of when he will die.
Naruto will have to master the Sage techniques before leaving, and that will take a while, longer than it will for Hawk to defeat the 8-tails and move out for Konoha. At best they will both arrive back at Konoha at the same time.

After Naruto finishes the mountain training, he will come to Konoha and kill Pein after one hell of a fight. That will leave the "final villain seat" to Madara. That's why I think Madara is the final villain. Kabutomaru is fodder, Kisame is a fuckin' monster but it's obvious that he won't be the finall villain. Zetsu is... well.. a spy, how come a spy be the final villain?

[Chocolate]

Tobi because he's a good boy!
Lol xD
Not really why he's gonna win, he's most likely gonna win the battle because there's a huge possibility that he is Madara Uchiha. And Madara summoned the nine tailed fox (i think) to distroy the village. That probaly takes alot of power to do that.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

^^Wrong, it takes the Sharingan to do that.

Madara has a secret that makes him invincible.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/10/
I think that Naruto will know that secret and defeat him.

He won't though, he's gonna be caught up with Pein, and then caught up with Sasuke.
He's not gonna waste his time with Tobi.
Kakashi however, is intrigued/confused by the fact that Tobi has the sharingan and is most likely to engage him in a fight.
Not only that, but Kakashi holds one of the two techniques that can kill Tobi.

Page please. v.v

Pein defeated Hanzou and his army(then killed his family) which is the Rain Village Army I believe.
If you read the manga like you claim you do, you should know this.


What moves?

Black Hole Technique, if he can hit Tobi.
and the Death Seal Jutsu, if she can keep Tobi still enough to begin the jutsu.

Amaterasu wasn't avoided, if I remember correctly Sasuke blocked it by his "wing",

Could've been avoided though and yes, he either blocked it or was hit, I cannot tell.
Sasuke clearly could've avoided it, the only reason he was hit was for story purposes. We've seen Sasuke move faster than Ameratsu, we know he could have avoided it. The Body Flicker jutsu could've out ran it, which means yes, it is avoidable because the Body Flicker is a genin level technique. Meaning everyone knows it.

even Madara didn't avoid it

He was at point blank range of course he didn't avoid it.

Gai carried him on his back. And after that he slept in the hospital for weeks XD

Yet he made it back to the sand village.

Well, that doesn't work in the Narutoverse. The Hokage is not just an old man who make decisions, he is the strongest man in the village. So, in the Narutoverse, the leader = the strongest.

Again, you don't make the calls.
Pein is clearly stronger than Tobi, and if he is in fact Madara, we know that Akatsuki is his organization.
You don't make the rules.

Madara is the man behind the most powerful evil organization, so it's obvious that he is the final villain.

Kabumaru was the first villain(separately of course), it's obvious he's the final villain.

In bleach, Aizen is the man behind the Espada, so he is obviously the final villain.

Aizen was the first real villain as well.

Tobi = Madara is a fact. It doesn't require a proof, but if we are now going to have a debate about whether Tobi is Madara or not, we will go off-topic. So you have to go with Tobi=Madara, at least for now.

It doesn't require proof?
Again, you don't make the rules.
Not one person can show me Madara being Tobi because no one has seen Madara being Tobi.
Tobi = Madara is no fact, it's theoretical until proven correct and until we see Madara as Tobi, he's not Tobi.
You seem to think that it's so hard for someone to dress up and say they're someone else. Not only that, but Shodamine wouldn't of beaten Madara if Madara was invincible now would he?

As I said, in Narutoverse, the leader is the strongest.

And as I said, you don't get the change the rules when someone gets an edge against your case.
Minato was the strongest when Sarutobi was Hokage.
It doesn't work like you want it to.
The leader is not the strongest, get over it.


Nah. Naruto said that he is gonna avenge Jiraiya, so he WILL avenge Jiraiya, he is the main character, remember?

So what?
It's clear in the manga Naruto doesn't stand a chance in hell.
And my god.

Then who will be the final villain, Kisame?


He's one of them.

A village is like a big organization. In the village, the leader is the strongest, same for the Akatsuki. We are talking about a ninja world.

No, a Village is like a State in the ninja world.
The Leader, is not the strongest.
The leader is whoever the state chooses as the leader.
For a third time, you don't make the rules.


I'm just too lazy to bring you a proof, you can check it out at NF if you want.


Of course you are, but see, I don't give a damn how lazy you are.
Bring me proof, or it's not true.
End of story.

Speculations are speculations, facts are facts. Also, I disagree with you on some of the fights you've mentioned.

You've stated pure speculation as well.
And I don't care at all.

[vane]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/09/

Here is where it says Pein beat all of Amegakurae.

[Hashirama]

He won't though, he's gonna be caught up with Pein, and then caught up with Sasuke.
He's not gonna waste his time with Tobi.
Kakashi however, is intrigued/confused by the fact that Tobi has the sharingan and is most likely to engage him in a fight.
Not only that, but Kakashi holds one of the two techniques that can kill Tobi.

You don't get it, do you? You think that the fourth most important character will defeat the LEADER of Akatsuki, while the main character is going to defeat the one who takes orders from the leader. That makes no sense at all.



Pein defeated Hanzou and his army(then killed his family) which is the Rain Village Army I believe.
If you read the manga like you claim you do, you should know this.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/369/09/

Here is where it says Pein beat all of Amegakurae.

Yeah I know that, I thought that majin means that Pein defeated Konoha itself. But since when Amegakurae is "like Konoha"? Konoha is the strongest village ever, of course Pein alone can't defeat it. Because all Akatsuki can't take Konoha, Madara said it himself.




Black Hole Technique, if he can hit Tobi.
and the Death Seal Jutsu, if she can keep Tobi still enough to begin the jutsu.

Nope, the black hole can't hit Tobi, he can remove any part of his body. Shiki Fuujin? Yeah probably.



Could've been avoided though and yes, he either blocked it or was hit, I cannot tell.
Sasuke clearly could've avoided it, the only reason he was hit was for story purposes. We've seen Sasuke move faster than Ameratsu, we know he could have avoided it. The Body Flicker jutsu could've out ran it, which means yes, it is avoidable because the Body Flicker is a genin level technique. Meaning everyone knows it.

Then why would Zetsu call Amaterasu unavoidable while even a genin level technique can avoid it? Again, that makes no sense.



Yet he made it back to the sand village.

I didn't say that using the technique will kill him.


Again, you don't make the calls.
Pein is clearly stronger than Tobi, and if he is in fact Madara, we know that Akatsuki is his organization.
You don't make the rules.

Orochimaru once called Konoha "an organization". So the village is just like a big organization. Pein could've killed Madara and become the leader, but he can't. It makes no sense that he follows someone who is actually weaker than him to achieve his goals, at least in the ninja world.



Kabumaru was the first villain(separately of course), it's obvious he's the final villain.

Obvious? What? Kabuto + Orochimaru = final villain? Orochimaru is fail. Kabuto is not that strong. As I said, he is now going to kill Sasugay, and if he is going to Sasugay, he is dead.



Aizen was the first real villain as well.

Yeah but he didn't get his ass kicked by a 13 years old boy.



It doesn't require proof?
Again, you don't make the rules.
Not one person can show me Madara being Tobi because no one has seen Madara being Tobi.
Tobi = Madara is no fact, it's theoretical until proven correct and until we see Madara as Tobi, he's not Tobi.
You seem to think that it's so hard for someone to dress up and say they're someone else. Not only that, but Shodamine wouldn't of beaten Madara if Madara was invincible now would he?

Yes, it doesn't require a proof, because the manga told us that Tobi is Madara. It's a manga fact. Maybe Shodai knew about Madara's secret, or probably Madara had mastered the Time/Space no Jutsu in those 100 years. I mean c'mon, a random person (with Sharingan) suddenly appear to people and say that he is Madara, please..



And as I said, you don't get the change the rules when someone gets an edge against your case.
Minato was the strongest when Sarutobi was Hokage.
It doesn't work like you want it to.
The leader is not the strongest, get over it.

You're acting retarded now.
When Minato surpassed Sarutobi, he became the Hokage, what manga do you read? And I said above why in the ninja world the leader is always the strongest.




So what?
It's clear in the manga Naruto doesn't stand a chance in hell.
And my god.

Shikamaru is now trying to figure the secret, Naruto is now having the Senjutsu training. Pein doesn't stand a chance.


He's one of them.

Yeah, Akatsuki are the final villains indeed, but the final one is the leader that is Uchiha Madara.



No, a Village is like a State in the ninja world.
The Leader, is not the strongest.
The leader is whoever the state chooses as the leader.
For a third time, you don't make the rules.

It was said in the manga that the Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village. Are you trying to oppose the manga?



Of course you are, but see, I don't give a damn how lazy you are.
Bring me proof, or it's not true.
End of story.

*sigh*
Click here, biaatch (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=18012802&postcount=5)



You've stated pure speculation as well.
And I don't care at all.

No, I stated manga facts, Tobi = Madara is a manga fact, the leader = the strongest is a manga fact.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

You don't get it, do you? You think that the fourth most important character will defeat the LEADER of Akatsuki, while the main character is going to defeat the one who takes orders from the leader. That makes no sense at all.

No actually you don't get it.
Naruto is one of the FOUR main characters.
Kakashi is one of the main characters and one of possibly two people who can beat Tobi. And as we've seen, Tobi gives, and takes orders.

Yeah I know that, I thought that majin means that Pein defeated Konoha itself. But since when Amegakurae is "like Konoha"? Konoha is the strongest village ever, of course Pein alone can't defeat it. Because all Akatsuki can't take Konoha, Madara said it himself.

Pein defeated Amegakure alone, idk about it's ninjas, but it's leader was the former strongest ninja to ever live.
Not to mention Pein alone decimated the strongest ninja in Konoha.
I'm not saying Pein alone could beat Konoha, it's likely seeing as only 1 ninja there comes close to measuring up to Jiriaya, but I don't think he will.

Nope, the black hole can't hit Tobi, he can remove any part of his body. Shiki Fuujin? Yeah probably.

The black hole CAN hit Tobi.
Tobi can avoid it sure, but there's no doubt that if he didn't, he would be killed(this is judging of course by the fact that Kakashi was there and noticed everything we have)

Then why would Zetsu call Amaterasu unavoidable while even a genin level technique can avoid it? Again, that makes no sense.

It doesn't have to make sense and to be fair, a lot of things don't make sense to you.

So the village is just like a big organization.

An organization has a purpose.
Has exports.
Has imports.
Etc..etc...
Konoha is a village.
Not an organization.

Pein could've killed Madara and become the leader, but he can't.

No actually he can.
He's just not.
I can't even explain why he's not because it's common knowledge...you don't kill your God damn boss.

It makes no sense that he follows someone who is actually weaker than him to achieve his goals, at least in the ninja world.

No, again, it makes perfect sense, just not to you.


Obvious? What? Kabuto + Orochimaru = final villain? Orochimaru is fail. Kabuto is not that strong. As I said, he is now going to kill Sasugay, and if he is going to Sasugay, he is dead.

1, Sasuke, not Sasugay.
2, Kabuto is at Kakashi's level, combine that with a Sannin, we can't tell how strong he is.
And Kabumaru doesn't know where Sasuke is now does he?
Not only that, but Orochimaru has been a villain since the 3rd arc.
It makes perfect sense.



Yeah but he didn't get his ass kicked by a 13 years old boy.


Yes, but had that 13 year old boy had the strongest demon inside of him and released half it's power, he would have.


Yes, it doesn't require a proof,

Yes it does.


because the manga told us that Tobi is Madara. It's a manga fact.

We have no physical proof to back that up, so it's not fact until it can be 100% proven, which it cannot be.


Maybe Shodai knew about Madara's secret, or probably Madara had mastered the Time/Space no Jutsu in those 100 years. I mean c'mon, a random person (with Sharingan) suddenly appear to people and say that he is Madara, please..

Who says he is random?

You're acting retarted now.

My God you are without a doubt the biggest headache to ever come across this forum.
You're not always right, so how bout you just grow up and finally realize that it's not up you.
You've yet to say ANYTHING correct throughout your entire time here, that I've seen at least.
You're foolish, stubborn, and frankly I'm f**king tired of it.
So here's an idea.
Grow up and get the hell over yourself.

When Minato surpassed Sarutobi, he became the Hokage, what manga do you read? And I said above why in the ninja world the leader is always the strongest.

No, when Sarutobi became too old he stepped down.
And again, hypocritical.

Shikamaru is now trying to figure the secret, Naruto is now having the Senjutsu training. Pein doesn't stand a chance.

What manga are you reading?
It's definitely not this one.


Yeah, Akatsuki are the final villains indeed, but the final one is the leader that is Uchiha Madara.

No, you have no proof to back that up other than your own stubbornness and your belief that everything you say is right.

It was said in the manga that the Hokage is the strongest ninja in the village. Are you trying to oppose the manga?

Here's where you just proved yourself wrong and my God is it hilarious.
Pein, is the leader of the Rain Village.
Akatsuki, is an organization stationed in the rain village, therefore a part of the Rain Village.
Therefore...Tobi cannot be stronger than Pein according to you.

*sigh*
Click here, biaatch (http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=18012802&postcount=5)

I should've known you came from NarutoFan...
And the problem with that is...how do we trust it?

No, I stated manga facts, Tobi = Madara is a manga fact, the leader = the strongest is a manga fact.

You've never once stated anything that's even close to fact.
You're so called facts is just what you want to believe.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I presonally agree with eveything Hashiramahas siad. I dont want to start deabting casue I hate long posts but so far, I am on his side (sorry majin)

[Hashirama]

No actually you don't get it.
Naruto is one of the FOUR main characters.
Kakashi is one of the main characters and one of possibly two people who can beat Tobi. And as we've seen, Tobi gives, and takes orders.

Naruto is one of the main characters? He is THE main character, the series is called Naruto, c'mon. Tobi doesn't take orders, he was pretending that he is some n00b before everybody knew that he is Madara. Do you read the manga?

Pein defeated Amegakure alone, idk about it's ninjas, but it's leader was the former strongest ninja to ever live.
Not to mention Pein alone decimated the strongest ninja in Konoha.
I'm not saying Pein alone could beat Konoha, it's likely seeing as only 1 ninja there comes close to measuring up to Jiriaya, but I don't think he will.

Amegakure wasn't ruled by one leader, it was under a civil war. However, Pein won and became the leader or the Kage.



The black hole CAN hit Tobi.
Tobi can avoid it sure, but there's no doubt that if he didn't, he would be killed(this is judging of course by the fact that Kakashi was there and noticed everything we have)

No, Madara simply can remove any part of his body. So no, the black hole is not THE move that can hit Madara



It doesn't have to make sense and to be fair, a lot of things don't make sense to you.

a lot of things that you say just doesn't make sense to anyone.


An organization has a purpose.
Has exports.
Has imports.
Etc..etc...
Konoha is a village.
Not an organization.

Village, Organization, Clan. In the ninja world the leader is the strongest. It's as simple as that.


No, again, it makes perfect sense, just not to you.

Not to anyone.




1, Sasuke, not Sasugay.
2, Kabuto is at Kakashi's level, combine that with a Sannin, we can't tell how strong he is.
And Kabumaru doesn't know where Sasuke is now does he?
Not only that, but Orochimaru has been a villain since the 3rd arc.
It makes perfect sense.

Jounin + Sannin, so what? That doesn't make you the finall villain. Itachi owned Orochimaru only by Genjutsu, if you add up a Jounin with Oro, will that make a difference? Itachi still has Amaterasu, Susano'o and the power he gave to Naruto, so, even Kabutomaru can't surpass Itachi, which means he can't surpass Madara. Which means he is not the final villain.





Yes, but had that 13 year old boy had the strongest demon inside of him and released half it's power, he would have.

Well, I'm actually talking about Itachi. Because he owned Orochimaru when he was young.


We have no physical proof to back that up, so it's not fact until it can be 100% proven, which it cannot be.


Someone with Sharingan and everyone calls him Uchiha Madara, and you still don't want to believe that he is Madara. Sorry, but you're trying to oppose the manga. It's up to you to believe in some theories about Tobi, but you can't use it on debates. Unless the debate was about the theory itself.



Who says he is random?

Then who is the person who pretends that he is Madara?

My God you are without a doubt the biggest headache to ever come across this forum.
You're not always right, so how bout you just grow up and finally realize that it's not up you.
You've yet to say ANYTHING correct throughout your entire time here, that I've seen at least.
You're foolish, stubborn, and frankly I'm f**king tired of it.
So here's an idea.
Grow up and get the hell over yourself.

You get pissed off easily, grow up.



No, when Sarutobi became too old he stepped down.
And again, hypocritical.

And when Sarutobi became old, Minato surpassed him so he became the Hokage. :oh:



What manga are you reading?
It's definitely not this one.

You know that when Pein killed Jiraiya he said that if it wasn't for his secret he might have lost. So, when Shika figure the secret, Naruto will have a big fight with Pein and defeat him, sadly.




No, you have no proof to back that up other than your own stubbornness and your belief that everything you say is right.

There is no proof about who is gonna be the final villain, even you don't have one. But Captain Obvious tells us that Madara is going to be the final villain.

Here's where you just proved yourself wrong and my God is it hilarious.
Pein, is the leader of the Rain Village.
Akatsuki, is an organization stationed in the rain village, therefore a part of the Rain Village.
Therefore...Tobi cannot be stronger than Pein according to you.

So, Akatsuki is part of the rain village? *facepalm*
All Akatsuki members are S-Class Missing Nins, and they all come from different villages. How come they are a part of the rain village? You fail. XD



I should've known you came from NarutoFan...
And the problem with that is...how do we trust it?

So, after I brought you the proof you come and say "should we trust it?". Well, yeah we should.



You've never once stated anything that's even close to fact.
You're so called facts is just what you want to believe.

K.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Naruto is one of the main characters? He is THE main character, the series is called Naruto, c'mon. Tobi doesn't take orders, he was pretending that he is some n00b before everybody knew that he is Madara. Do you read the manga?



Amegakure wasn't ruled by one leader, it was under a civil war. However, Pein won and became the leader or the Kage.





No, Madara simply can remove any part of his body. So no, the black hole is not THE move that can hit Madara





a lot of things that you say just doesn't make sense to anyone.




Village, Organization, Clan. In the ninja world the leader is the strongest. It's as simple as that.




Not to anyone.






Jounin + Sannin, so what? That doesn't make you the finall villain. Itachi owned Orochimaru only by Genjutsu, if you add up a Jounin with Oro, will that make a difference? Itachi still has Amaterasu, Susano'o and the power he gave to Naruto, so, even Kabutomaru can't surpass Itachi, which means he can't surpass Madara. Which means he is not the final villain.







Well, I'm actually talking about Itachi. Because he owned Orochimaru when he was young.




Someone with Sharingan and everyone calls him Uchiha Madara, and you still don't want to believe that he is Madara. Sorry, but you're trying to oppose the manga. It's up to you to believe in some theories about Tobi, but you can't use it on debates. Unless the debate was about the theory itself.





Then who is the person who pretends that he is Madara?



You get pissed off easily, grow up.





And when Sarutobi became old, Minato surpassed him so he became the Hokage. :oh:





You know that when Pein killed Jiraiya he said that if it wasn't for his secret he might have lost. So, when Shika figure the secret, Naruto will have a big fight with Pein and defeat him, sadly.






There is no proof about who is gonna be the final villain, even you don't have one. But Captain Obvious tells us that Madara is going to be the final villain.



So, Akatsuki is part of the rain village? *facepalm*
All Akatsuki members are S-Class Missing Nins, and they all come from different villages. How come they are a part of the rain village? You fail. XD





So, after I brought you the proof you come and say "should we trust it?". Well, yeah we should.





K.


lol nice post. I agree again :D

[Hashirama]

lol nice post. I agree again :D

I'm honored.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Naruto is one of the main characters? He is THE main character, the series is called Naruto, c'mon. Tobi doesn't take orders, he was pretending that he is some n00b before everybody knew that he is Madara. Do you read the manga?

Tobi took orders though.

No, Madara simply can remove any part of his body. So no, the black hole is not THE move that can hit Madara

Then he'll get him in a situation where he can't, simple as that.




a lot of things that you say just doesn't make sense to anyone.


This isn't relative to the debate but while we're on the subject, Lol.



Village, Organization, Clan. In the ninja world the leader is the strongest. It's as simple as that.

Not always.




Not to anyone.


Again, Lol.




Itachi owned Orochimaru only by Genjutsu, if you add up a Jounin with Oro, will that make a difference? Itachi still has Amaterasu, Susano'o and the power he gave to Naruto, so, even Kabutomaru can't surpass Itachi, which means he can't surpass Madara. Which means he is not the final villain.

It doesn't matter if he can surpass Madara, we know for a fact Madara is weaker than he used to be because no one in the manga is strong enough to beat him.
Orochimaru can beat every ninja in Konoha.
Kabuto, could be a lot of them.
Put them together, that's a pretty hard combo to beat.

Well, I'm actually talking about Itachi. Because he owned Orochimaru when he was young.

Itachi's dead now isn't he?

Someone with Sharingan and everyone calls him Uchiha Madara, and you still don't want to believe that he is Madara. Sorry, but you're trying to oppose the manga. It's up to you to believe in some theories about Tobi, but you can't use it on debates. Unless the debate was about the theory itself.

Sorry but there's quite a lot of proof opposing the so called fact that Tobi is Madara.
Until I see Madara as Tobi, I have no reason to believe it to be true.

Then who is the person who pretends that he is Madara?

Did I say I knew that?


You get pissed off easily, grow up.

:lmao:
You're so pathetic it's actually funny.

And when Sarutobi became old, Minato surpassed him so he became the Hokage. :oh:

We do not know the reason for Sarutobi stepping down so neither you nor me can accurately state the reason.

There is no proof about who is gonna be the final villain, even you don't have one. But Captain Obvious tells us that Madara is going to be the final villain.


Not really.
Captain Obvious whoever that may be, is telling us the final villain will be a somewhat large sum of people, the remaining Akatsuki minus Zetsu, Pein, and Konan, as well as Hawk. So technically yes, Madara is the final villain. But he shares that spot with a few others as well.


So, Akatsuki is part of the rain village? *facepalm*
All Akatsuki members are S-Class Missing Nins, and they all come from different villages. How come they are a part of the rain village? You fail. XD


Because Akatsuki is an organization stationed in the Rain Village.
They have many hideouts, but one building in the Rain Village in which the leader(s) meet and operate.
On the other hand, the building could very well be the Kage Mansion, but there is really no way of knowing what that building is.

So, after I brought you the proof you come and say "should we trust it?". Well, yeah we should.

Again, how do we trust that?
Almost everything you've said(not in this debate particularly) is false.
So how do we trust someone who clearly does not have his information correct?
If anything that's just more proof that it's false.
And the only reason you say we should trust it is because it's for your side and your source.
Had I or anyone else done what you did, you wouldn't trust them and you know it.

[Hashirama]

Stubborn huh?

Whatever is the situation, nothing will hit him.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/06/

Always.

Do you have a proof that Madara is weaker than he used to be? Any proof other than the shell of his former self? You don't. Orochimaru can't beat every ninja in Konoha. And Kabuto is just Jounin level. So no, Kabutomaru isn't a good final villain. Plus, he only wants to get avenge Orochimaru. A final villain is supposed to be someone who wants to rule the world or something. Not to avenge his master. He is obviously not the final villain.

His teacher is alive.

I told you, don't use your theories in debates. Stop acting stubborn and give it up. The manga cleared everything up, and it was justified why Madara is doing all this.

Yeah it's funny pissing you off.

It's obvious that when Minato proved that he is the strongest in Konoha, he became the Hokage. It was stated in the manga that the Hokage is the strongest in the village. Stop making yourself look like an idiot.

Zetsu is a spy. Pein, unfortunately, is going to die soon. Konan is Pein's bitch and she will die with him. Sasuke will probably be Naruto's final opponent, but not as a villain.

Akatsuki isn't stationed in any place. The place where Madara met Pein was Pein's house or something and Madara visited him. Akatsuki members don't even meet each other physically. They don't live in the rain village. Also they're all Missing Nins so they're not a part of any village.

So, you say that I'm stubborn? :lmao:

In the same page where Itachi said that Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self, he said that by possesing Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan he will surpass Madara. What does that mean? Indeed, it means that Itachi is weaker than Madara or at least equal to him. So, Madara being stronger than Itachi means that Madara is very strong and he is not a shell of his former self. So stop being stubborn and drop the pathetic-shell-of-his-former-self thing, you'll feel better.

Side Note: Wow, you're now a mod. That's interesting. Looks like I'll get banned soon. lol.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

First post as a mod...used to the quote button being there, thought i clicked quote, I hit edit. That was my bad.

Stubborn huh?

No, reciting facts.
Regardless of if he was pretending or not.
He still took the orders.

Whatever is the situation, nothing will hit him.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/395/06/


There's always a situation.

(Am I the only person that's creeped out by the fact that the next to responses to what I just said are directly below this???)

Not always.

Always.


^^Odd...

Do you have a proof that Madara is weaker than he used to be? Any proof other than the shell of his former self? You don't. Orochimaru can't beat every ninja in Konoha. And Kabuto is just Jounin level. So no, Kabutomaru isn't a good final villain. Plus, he only wants to get avenge Orochimaru. A final villain is supposed to be someone who wants to rule the world or something. Not to avenge his master. He is obviously not the final villain.

The final villain doesn't always have to have the same mission.
Kishimoto has shown time after time he is an excellent character writer.
Knowing him, Kabumaru will either be shown moving towards Konoha at the very end, or he will be the final villain.

His teacher is alive.

In a sense.


I told you, don't use your theories in debates. Stop acting stubborn and give it up. The manga cleared everything up, and it was justified why Madara is doing all this.


No, the manga has in fact gave us more questions in need of being answered.
Why would Madara pretend to be a complete idiot in front of everyone, when he could simply kill them? He's invincible, he's immortal, he should be able to take out someone if anyone found out. And that still doesn't explain why he acted like an idiot around Zetsu when clearly there was no one around. And yes, Zetsu already knew. Zetsu was most likely the first to know seeing how he "discovered Tobi" which means he found out that Tobi is actually Madara.


Yeah it's funny pissing you off.

Pissed?
No, no. I'm not pissed.
People here have seen me pissed.
I'm not pissed one bit.
I'm...amused.

It's obvious that when Minato proved that he is the strongest in Konoha, he became the Hokage. It was stated in the manga that the Hokage is the strongest in the village. Stop making yourself look like an idiot.

Again, it's obvious only to you.
Sarutobi was well around 50 at the time Minato took over. We cannot decide if Sarutobi stepped down because he was old or because Minato had surpassed him.
We have no way of knowing.

Zetsu is a spy. Pein, unfortunately, is going to die soon. Konan is Pein's bitch and she will die with him. Sasuke will probably be Naruto's final opponent, but not as a villain.

For once I agree.

Akatsuki isn't stationed in any place. The place where Madara met Pein was Pein's house or something and Madara visited him. Akatsuki members don't even meet each other physically. They don't live in the rain village. Also they're all Missing Nins so they're not a part of any village.

Agreed.

So, you say that I'm stubborn? :lmao:

And you're surprised? :lmao:

In the same page where Itachi said that Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self, he said that by possesing Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan he will surpass Madara. What does that mean? Indeed, it means that Itachi is weaker than Madara or at least equal to him. So, Madara being stronger than Itachi means that Madara is very strong and he is not a shell of his former self. So stop being stubborn and drop the pathetic-shell-of-his-former-self thing, you'll feel better.

I agree with all the parts and :lmao: at the hypocrisy.

Side Note: Wow, you're now a mod. That's interesting. Looks like I'll get banned soon. lol.

Now but 2-3 more of the idiot comments and I'll give an infraction.

[uchiha123123]

I think tobi will win because he has that fkicker thingy as well as sharingan but on the other hand kakashi has sharingan aswell............but tobi is how you say more battle tested and has more knowladge

[Chocolate]

^^Wrong, it takes the Sharingan to do that.

Lol I didn't want to mension the sharingan part since BOTH of them have sharigan and that mostly everyone that read the manga knows that. :lol: But yeah, sharingan is needed to summon kyuubi to distroy the village ect...

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Sorry about the mess folks, I'll clean it up.

[Chocolate]

Sorry about the mess folks, I'll clean it up.
Hm? What mess?
Ohh...yeah, you're a mod in these type of forums xDD

[Hashirama]

I'll be kind enough and forget what happened. XD

[Chocolate]

I'll be kind enough and forget what happened. XD

Lol. XD

[amathews1998]

i agree with shika shuffle

[KyubiiRage]

Kakashi wins.Here are my reasons:Madara is weaker than before,Kakashi got way more stronger,Madaras sharingan cant detect kakashis movements,and like you said Kakashi will probably reveal some new powers,Itachi said that Madara is weaker than before

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

How can Madara's sharingan not predict Kakashis movements??

Currently Madra would take this since he has an Uber space time jutsu meaning that Kakashi could not even hit him let alone kill him.

[KyubiiRage]

Kakashis movements are way to fasst dodnt you see him do jutsus.He improved his speed so that sharingan cant see his movements

[WhiteFang]

^^ That's not the point.

Logically, right now, Madara.
That dude is unhittable.

Storywise though, I think Kakashi would win when the actual battle happens.

[vane]

^^ Well thats actually saying if the battle actually happens.

[sHaoLin_ruGby]

this is a tough one !

kakashi can't use his MS bLack hoLe thing ! because madara can easiLy get away !

and madara hasn't shown the abiLity to use any abiLities apart from teLeportation ! ! !

[WhiteFang]

^^ Well thats actually saying if the battle actually happens.
Well that's a point. But I was taking the OP's view into consideration.

this is a tough one !

kakashi can't use his MS bLack hoLe thing ! because madara can easiLy get away !

and madara hasn't shown the abiLity to use any abiLities apart from teLeportation ! ! !

Yeah, that's all Madara can do currently... teleport. He has not shown any powers of MS as of yet.
So right now it boils down to chakra reserves. Kakashi we know doesn't have too much.. Madara.. I don't know his chakra reserve condition after 100+ years.
Every attack will currently pass through Madara... but how long can Madara keep up the teleporting before he tires out. And how long can Kakashi defend himself? Or will he just get his throat slit with a kunai. But that's highly unlikely. And Madara has not shown any other techs.
We don't know much about Madara's current stats so its very difficult to visualise or comment on how the battle will pan out.
But just because of the fact that Kakashi commented that Madara can do a space/time ninjutsu at the level of the 4th (and even more advanced actually, in the sense he doesn't need to use seals, summoning tattoos etc.) and is hence unhittable.. I'm classifying him as the winner of this fight.
Although I do feel he has weaknesses.
They just need to be revealed.
Otherwise no one but Pein would be able to beat him.
And seeing someone besides him probably will beat him at some point of time in the story... he has to be hit with something somehow.
Or until and unless someone is still alive who knows the Shiki Fuujin. But even with that there is the issue of catching him which at this point of time is impossible.
So again, wait and see is the best option.
Because otherwise this battle has no suitable premise currently. Madara can just teleport... so in an extreme technicality.. since he hasn't shown any form of attacking ability.. he has no offense and that makes this a draw.
But that just sounds funny doesn't it?
Logic is dictating that this should go to Madara since the fella has such an uber powerful space/time ninjutsu and can't be hit. No one except Pein can beat him.
But we know that storywise something different will happen.
The waiting game...

[Smiley]

And how does Pein beat him is he is unhittable?

Anyway, thread:
http://www.talknaruto.com/showthread.php?t=7873

[WhiteFang]

^^ Umm.. actually Pein beats him because:

As of now, Pein has an unknown no. of bodies. (we saw a new one recently, correct?) What we do know is that he controls six at a time.
We also know that his bodies will just continue to come back no matter what as the current circumstance stands.
Hence making Pein the God he is and absolutely unbeatable without that damn secret.
Madara can continue to teleport. But how long? Teleporting, like everything else, is a jutsu and hence uses chakra. Madara will eventually run out of chakra. Whereas Pein has a headfirst advantage of having six bodies worth of chakra right from the start.
And then even if Madara manages to kill his bodies.. more will keep coming. So there is no way, Madara, or anyone for that matter can beat Pein.
So yeah, Madara loses to Pein.

And I believe Muffin has merged the threads.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Didnt Kakshi and all the other Konoha shinobi already fight him in a 10 v 1 battle and they didnt even come close to landing a hit? So ehy would Kakshi do any better by himself.

[Smiley]

^^ Umm.. actually Pein beats him because:

As of now, Pein has an unknown no. of bodies. (we saw a new one recently, correct?) What we do know is that he controls six at a time.
We also know that his bodies will just continue to come back no matter what as the current circumstance stands.
Hence making Pein the God he is and absolutely unbeatable without that damn secret.
Madara can continue to teleport. But how long? Teleporting, like everything else, is a jutsu and hence uses chakra. Madara will eventually run out of chakra. Whereas Pein has a headfirst advantage of having six bodies worth of chakra right from the start.
And then even if Madara manages to kill his bodies.. more will keep coming. So there is no way, Madara, or anyone for that matter can beat Pein.
So yeah, Madara loses to Pein.

And I believe Muffin has merged the threads.

The main reason why I think that Madara > Pein is because he obeys his orders.
Other than that, Madara can just teleport behind each body and klll them.
The "healing ability" most likely uses chakra as well, and he can't keep healing himself forever.
Just a guess, but I think that Madara knows his secret.
No other reason for him to be bossing Pein around.

Didnt Kakshi and all the other Konoha shinobi already fight him in a 10 v 1 battle and they didnt even come close to landing a hit? So ehy would Kakshi do any better by himself.


True =|
Kirin has more chances of hitting Tobi than Kakashi's time/space warp.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Didnt Kakshi and all the other Konoha shinobi already fight him in a 10 v 1 battle and they didnt even come close to landing a hit? So ehy would Kakshi do any better by himself.

No, It was a 1 on 1 fight.
2 1 on 1 fights.
Shino vs. Tobi then Naruto vs. Tobi.

The main reason why I think that Madara > Pein is because he obeys his orders.

That has nothing to do with it.
Tobi's the leader.
Do I honestly have to explain this?
When you're the leader you are in charge.
Your "employees" don't come and kill you whenever they get stronger than you. No they don't.
They climb the ladder via promotion, not via knocking it down and climbing up the ladder.

Other than that, Madara can just teleport behind each body and klll them.

But you know that won't happen simply because if this fight were to actually happen it would be a fight.

Just a guess, but I think that Madara knows his secret.

No he doesn't.
ONLY Jiriaya can know the secret. Are you honestly suggesting that Madara had the exact same experiences with those exact 7 people just like Jiriaya did? Cause that's the only way he could know the secret.

No other reason for him to be bossing Pein around.

Other than it's his organization.

[Smiley]

That has nothing to do with it.
Tobi's the leader.
Do I honestly have to explain this?
When you're the leader you are in charge.
Your "employees" don't come and kill you whenever they get stronger than you. No they don't.
They climb the ladder via promotion, not via knocking it down and climbing up the ladder.

They are collecting tailed beasts for different purposes, Pein would kill him if he could.
It's my opinion, though. I don't wanna argue about it.


But you know that won't happen simply because if this fight were to actually happen it would be a fight.

I believe that with a sharp weapon and his time/space jutsu Madara can defeat Pein.
IF we assume that Pein doesn't have more than six bodies, and that his healing ability uses chakra.



No he doesn't.
ONLY Jiriaya can know the secret. Are you honestly suggesting that Madara had the exact same experiences with those exact 7 people just like Jiriaya did? Cause that's the only way he could know the secret.

No, I'm saying that Madara may have somehow found out the location of the real body.
Or that they're all real.. If the message is "There is no real one".



You may be right, I dunno.
We lack information.. about both characters.
It's just my opinion, that "The leader", "The mastermind" is the strongest.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

You may be right, I dunno.
We lack information.. about both characters.
It's just my opinion, that "The leader", "The mastermind" is the strongest.

Alright, fair enough.

[MinatoNamikaze]

We cant asume leader doesnt = strongest. In our modern world it doesnt. it comes dwon to who opened a company or who was voted in, but when we relied on stregnth (like all other heard anima now a days) the strongest is the leader/alpha male. just something to think about.

Also Majin - Kiba, Naruto, Yamato, kakshi, shino and Hinata fought in the battle with Tobi, so its 6v1 not 10 v 1 as i stated earlier, but its not 2v1 either.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

We cant asume leader doesnt = strongest. In our modern world it doesnt. it comes dwon to who opened a company or who was voted in, but when we relied on stregnth (like all other heard anima now a days) the strongest is the leader/alpha male. just something to think about.

Also Majin - Kiba, Naruto, Yamato, kakshi, shino and Hinata fought in the battle with Tobi, so its 6v1 not 10 v 1 as i stated earlier, but its not 2v1 either.

Show me Kiba, Yamato, Kakashi, and Hinata fighting.
I remember Shino using his bugs and Naruto using Rasengan.
Just because the others were there doesn't mean that they were fighting.

[vane]

The main reason why I think that Madara > Pein is because he obeys his orders.
Other than that, Madara can just teleport behind each body and klll them.
The "healing ability" most likely uses chakra as well, and he can't keep healing himself forever.
Just a guess, but I think that Madara knows his secret.
No other reason for him to be bossing Pein around.Pein follows Madara's order's to reach his own desires. He wants the tailed beasts to and Madara just had a better plan to get them apparently.

To be able to teleport behind each body and kill them would be a great feat in itself considering Pein has 6 points of view. Basically giving himself cover from all angles.

Maybe the healing ability uses chakra, maybe it doesnt. But it has to be something that involves at least one of the other bodies to bring the dead one back to life because if not then the body in Konoha would have already went missing from the operating table one night.(For those who didnt catch that meaning that, that body would have gotten up and left when no one was around)

Well there is the reason that Madara boss's Pein around. Because Madara thinks he is stronger than Pein. Or maybe he is just fortunate enough to have such a strong ally in his organazation.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Pein follows Madara's order's to reach his own desires. He wants the tailed beasts to and Madara just had a better plan to get them apparently.

To be able to teleport behind each body and kill them would be a great feat in itself considering Pein has 6 points of view. Basically giving himself cover from all angles.

Maybe the healing ability uses chakra, maybe it doesnt. But it has to be something that involves at least one of the other bodies to bring the dead one back to life because if not then the body in Konoha would have already went missing from the operating table one night.(For those who didnt catch that meaning that, that body would have gotten up and left when no one was around)

Well there is the reason that Madara boss's Pein around. Because Madara thinks he is stronger than Pein. Or maybe he is just fortunate enough to have such a strong ally in his organazation.

That's definitely a more believable answer because it directly relates to the story.
Good point and good post, I'll rep :D

[vane]

Thankx. Lol.

I had to start somewhere considering I havnt been here for about a week in a half.

[WhiteFang]

The main reason why I think that Madara > Pein is because he obeys his orders.
Well that's hardly a reason. vane has explained that pretty well. And also.. Pein doesn't get ordered around exactly. Its more like a conversation between 2 important people of the organization. They talk as equals.
Other than that, Madara can just teleport behind each body and klll them.
That's easier said than done. That fellow has 6 points of view. He has no blind spot. Its Byakugan vision.
The "healing ability" most likely uses chakra as well, and he can't keep healing himself forever.
Here I think you are a little mistaken. Its not exactly a healing ability. Pein's bodies get resurrected altogether. For example, Jiraiya killed a body and sent it to Konoha. Yet in the scene afterwards... Pein was there with all his bodies including that one. So no. He doesn't heal his bodies. Its more like a human summon or maybe something even more complicated.
Just a guess, but I think that Madara knows his secret.
I don't think so. Because clearly Jiraiya was the one who had fought those shinobis and the secret had something to do with that.
No other reason for him to be bossing Pein around.
Like I've said above, firstly, it isn't exactly bossing around. And secondly, he may have ulterior motives. Thirdly, I feel Madara probably met them when they were kids. He's manipulating them.

True =|
Kirin has more chances of hitting Tobi than Kakashi's time/space warp.
Yep. And even then Madara can just teleport away.

Pein follows Madara's order's to reach his own desires. He wants the tailed beasts to and Madara just had a better plan to get them apparently.

To be able to teleport behind each body and kill them would be a great feat in itself considering Pein has 6 points of view. Basically giving himself cover from all angles.

Maybe the healing ability uses chakra, maybe it doesnt. But it has to be something that involves at least one of the other bodies to bring the dead one back to life because if not then the body in Konoha would have already went missing from the operating table one night.(For those who didnt catch that meaning that, that body would have gotten up and left when no one was around)

Well there is the reason that Madara boss's Pein around. Because Madara thinks he is stronger than Pein. Or maybe he is just fortunate enough to have such a strong ally in his organazation.

Well said. :)

[Smiley]

Here I think you are a little mistaken. Its not exactly a healing ability. Pein's bodies get resurrected altogether. For example, Jiraiya killed a body and sent it to Konoha. Yet in the scene afterwards... Pein was there with all his bodies including that one. So no. He doesn't heal his bodies. Its more like a human summon or maybe something even more complicated.


?? No, the body that was sent to Konoha was replaced with the female body.
He had to heal the bodies somehow, and that had nothing to do with summonigs.


Well that's hardly a reason. vane has explained that pretty well. And also.. Pein doesn't get ordered around exactly. Its more like a conversation between 2 important people of the organization. They talk as equals.

Not really, he talks to him as a boss.
When he sent him after Kyuubi he said something like "I won't accept failure".

Yep. And even then Madara can just teleport away.


Yes. But Kirin is a lot faster than the time/space warp and targets the whole body at once. That's why I said it has better chances of hitting him.
Also, as seen here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/396/02/) he can't really instantly teleport his whole body. If that's true then Kirin can most likely do the job.

[vane]

Not really, he talks to him as a boss.
Because he is the boss of the organazation. Also he thinks he can beat Pein apparently. So of course he is going yo talk down on his subordinates. Thats like if you ran a company. You would tell them what to do. But as I just said. Madara apparently thinks he is stronger. But in our eyes Madara doesnt have any type of attack. All he has is his ability to flee.

When he sent him after Kyuubi he said something like "I won't accept failure".

He didnt say I wont accept failure. Madara said "as the leader failure will not be tolerated." Basically Madara was calling Pein leader there. And basically said to uphold your title of leader and show that you are strong enough to be that leader you must capture the Kyuubi at all cost.

[Smiley]

He didnt say I wont accept failure. Madara said "as the leader failure will not be tolerated." Basically Madara was calling Pein leader there. And basically said to uphold your title of leader and show that you are strong enough to be that leader you must capture the Kyuubi at all cost.

But HE, Madara, won't accept failure.
And as you said in the first paragraph he is looking down on him.

Also we need more info about both characters to decide who's stronger.
Most likely, the time/space jutsu isn't the only thing Madara's got.

[vane]

But HE, Madara, won't accept failure.
But the main ??? is. What is he going to do about it? Nothing. Because he cant.

And as you said in the first paragraph he is looking down on him.

Yes he does. But he also uses Pein's title to his own advantage. The invincible Pein. Madara calls him that. So he only talks down on him because he knows he can for now.

Also we need more info about both characters to decide who's stronger.

No we have enough info right now to tell who is stronger right now. It just sounds like you dont want to accept that. Almost like you wont accept anything that isnt saying Madara is stronger. Although yes maybe later Madara will show us something incredible that he can do. But until then all he has is the time/space jutsu.

Most likely, the time/space jutsu isn't the only thing Madara's got.
No no. Most likely it isnt. But for now we can only assume. Which cant be usedq in debates. Because assumptions arent facts.

[Smiley]

No we have enough info right now to tell who is stronger right now. It just sounds like you dont want to accept that. Almost like you wont accept anything that isnt saying Madara is stronger. Although yes maybe later Madara will show us something incredible that he can do. But until then all he has is the time/space jutsu.

No.. Usually when little is known about characters, there shouldn't even be a debate until more is revealed.
That's how it is on other forums.
Imo, Madara is stronger.
But just imo.
I've never said it as a fact.
Go reread my posts.

No no. Most likely it isnt. But for now we can only assume. Which cant be usedq in debates. Because assumptions arent facts

That's right, and therefore, due to lack of information, we can't decide on who's stronger yet.
Also, on the other thread, you agreed that they're equals, since from what we've seen so far, they're both pretty much invincible. Madara can't be hit and Pein can revive himself.
And that is impossible. It's impossible that they're invincible, since they're the villains, and they will eventually die. They have weaknesses that haven't been revealed yet. That's why, to debate, we need more information.

[vane]

No.. Usually when little is known about characters, there shouldn't even be a debate until more is revealed.
That's how it is on other forums.
Imo, Madara is stronger.
But just imo.
I've never said it as a fact.
Go reread my posts.

See now your getting hasty. Because I never said you said it as a fact. I am merely saying that you are all for Madara at this point in time. And that you will ignore the chapters that say anything about him being weaker. Like the 3 chapters that I have usedq on many threads so far. Where as right now we know that Pein is fully 100% at his full power and only has 1 weakness thus far.

That's right, and therefore, due to lack of information, we can't decide on who's stronger yet.
Also, on the other thread, you agreed that they're equals, since from what we've seen so far, they're both pretty much invincible. Madara can't be hit and Pein can revive himself.
And that is impossible. It's impossible that they're invincible, since they're the villains, and they will eventually die. They have weaknesses that haven't been revealed yet. That's why, to debate, we need more information.
Yes I agreed that it would be a tie. But I still say Pein is stronger. Mostly because if Madara hits Pein and with what ever attack he may have and kills one. Pein gets right back up without even slowing down. Where as if Madara gets hit he is more than likely dead. And I mean actually gets hit. Not like that Amaterasu attack that he was still able to get away from. But the rest of what you said is true. They against each other so far are ='s. (considering one cant kill the other yet.)

[Smiley]

See now your getting hasty. Because I never said you said it as a fact. I am merely saying that you are all for Madara at this point in time. And that you will ignore the chapters that say anything about him being weaker. Like the 3 chapters that I have usedq on many threads so far. Where as right now we know that Pein is fully 100% at his full power and only has 1 weakness thus far.


Weaker than he once was, or weaker than Pein?
Weaker than he once was, yes, because he lost EMS. That however, doesn't make him weaker than Pein.

And yes, you didn't say that I said it as a fact.
But you said that I don't want to accept that Pein is stronger than Madara.
Which isn't true.
It's my opinion.. I'm not saying that he is stronger, from what we've seen neither of them can be beat.

Yes I agreed that it would be a tie. But I still say Pein is stronger. Mostly because if Madara hits Pein and with what ever attack he may have and kills one. Pein gets right back up without even slowing down. Where as if Madara gets hit he is more than likely dead. And I mean actually gets hit. Not like that Amaterasu attack that he was still able to get away from. But the rest of what you said is true. They against each other so far are ='s. (considering one cant kill the other yet.)

He can't get up right away.
If he could, the-Deidara body that Jiraiya killed would've revived itself.
More likely, one of the bodies has the healing ability.
Yes, that's just an assumption, but it's a logical assumption.
For reasons such as this one, there shouldn't be a debate until more is revealed about characters.
For instance, how does Pein revive himself?
Or, how many times can he revive himself?

On Madara's side, we need to know the weakness of the time/space jutsu which he mentioned after he had avoided Amaterasu.
We need to know does Pein knows that weakness.
etc.

[vane]

Weaker than he once was, or weaker than Pein?
Weaker than he once was, yes, because he lost EMS. That however, doesn't make him weaker than Pein.
No I meant weaker than he once was. But on another note. EMS would be Madara's only hope against Pein had they known each others weakness's.

And yes, you didn't say that I said it as a fact.
But you said that I don't want to accept that Pein is stronger than Madara.
Which isn't true.
It's my opinion.. I'm not saying that he is stronger, from what we've seen neither of them can be beat.

No Im only saying that what you said first you think Madara would win then we dont know neithers full capabilities. And that we need to know each others full abilities to see who is stronger. Just kinda sounds to me like you want to wait until Madara is declared the strongest of all time to me. Because at this point in time Pein is stronger than Madara.

He can't get up right away.
If he could, the-Deidara body that Jiraiya killed would've revived itself.

I didnt mean it that way and you know it. I mean that once revived they get back up without even slowing down. Not just they get back up. I already said that it takes another Pein to revive another way earlier so you did know what I meant.

More likely, one of the bodies has the healing ability.
Yes, that's just an assumption, but it's a logical assumption.

Still an assumption none the less. We just dont know.

For reasons such as this one, there shouldn't be a debate until more is revealed about characters.

No for reasons such as this we take what we know about the people and make our unbiased decisions about who would win. Or who is stronger. Which with the evidence we have now it is clearly Pein.

For instance, how does Pein revive himself?
Or, how many times can he revive himself?

Well here it doesnt matter how he does it. It just matters that he can do it. Also we do know that he can bring back multiple bodies from death at nearly the same time considering Jiraiya didnt do anything but walk out of the building and already had the Peins back on his trail.

On Madara's side, we need to know the weakness of the time/space jutsu which he mentioned after he had avoided Amaterasu.
He never said the time.soace jutsu had a weakness. He just said had he not kept secrets from Itachi he would have been dead.

We need to know does Pein knows that weakness.
etc.
Well we have all pretty much agreed that neither knows the others weakness. Everybody just sort of agreed on that. So I think it is fair.

[Smiley]

No Im only saying that what you said first you think Madara would win then we dont know neithers full capabilities.

I still THINK he would win.
But to know for sure we need to know their full capabilities.

And that we need to know each others full abilities to see who is stronger. Just kinda sounds to me like you want to wait until Madara is declared the strongest of all time to me. Because at this point in time Pein is stronger than Madara.

Explain to me how?
From what we know, the only attacking ability he has, is to deatach his arm and shoot it at his opponent.
Which can easily be avoided.. Especially by a sharingan user. He doesn't even need the time/space jutsu for that.




Still an assumption none the less. We just dont know.

That's why I said that we need to wait.

No for reasons such as this we take what we know about the people and make our unbiased decisions about who would win. Or who is stronger. Which with the evidence we have now it is clearly Pein.

In your opinion.


He never said the time.soace jutsu had a weakness. He just said had he not kept secrets from Itachi he would have been dead.

And he said that, right after almost being killed by Amaterasu implanted by Itachi, and escaped it with the time/space jutsu.

[gheorghecoser]

Tobi or Uchiha Madara is the real leader of Akatsuki, we all know this... and he is the most powerfull from his organization... no question: TOBI WILL KILL KAKASHI WITHOUT USING 60 % OF HIS POWER... REMEMBER, WHAT ITACHI SAYED ABOUT MADARA WERE JUST SOME LIES (READ THE CHAPTER)... AND OF COURSE HE WAS THE ONLY ONE IN HISTORY WHO CAN SUMMONING THE NINE TAILED DEMON FOX, AS ITACHI TOLD SASUKE

[Doctor Octogonapus]

MCB and Coser...Read between the lines and don't make that big of assumptions when it comes to things neither you nor anyone of us knows anything about.

[vane]

Tobi or Uchiha Madara is the real leader of Akatsuki, we all know this... and he is the most powerfull from his organization... no question: TOBI WILL KILL KAKASHI WITHOUT USING 60 % OF HIS POWER... REMEMBER, WHAT ITACHI SAYED ABOUT MADARA WERE JUST SOME LIES (READ THE CHAPTER)... AND OF COURSE HE WAS THE ONLY ONE IN HISTORY WHO CAN SUMMONING THE NINE TAILED DEMON FOX, AS ITACHI TOLD SASUKE

I was wondering. Was making your whole post capitalized suppose to get a point across better or actually mean anything? Because it doesnt do anything for me.

[vane]

Explain to me how?
From what we know, the only attacking ability he has, is to deatach his arm and shoot it at his opponent.
Which can easily be avoided.. Especially by a sharingan user. He doesn't even need the time/space jutsu for that.

Actually we know that Pein can summon many forms of beast. Also that one of his bodies can absorb chakra. That Pein has black sword things that disrupt chakra (also it looked like it the sword was trying to take over the host but thats just what it looked like to me). On top of that one of Peins bodies can shoot his arm as a missile. I mean Pein has shown way more abilities than that of Madara. Madara has only shown the ability to teleport. That doesnt win fights. It just helps you avoid attacks.

[Smiley]

Actually we know that Pein can summon many forms of beast.

The body that had multiple summons was killed by Jiraiya.

Also that one of his bodies can absorb chakra. That Pein has black sword things that disrupt chakra (also it looked like it the sword was trying to take over the host but thats just what it looked like to me).

Are you referring to this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/02/)? If so, that's the same body that was killed by Jiraiya.

Or maybe you meant the fat one , that absorbs elemental ninjutsu attacks?
Well, that doesn't help him against Madara who hasn't shown any.

On top of that one of Peins bodies can shoot his arm as a missile. I mean Pein has shown way more abilities than that of Madara. Madara has only shown the ability to teleport. That doesnt win fights. It just helps you avoid attacks.

This is the only thing left. Yes, he can deatach his arm and shoot it as a missile. But that's about it. And can easily be avoided.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Actually teleporting does make you win fights. Look at Mianto. Plus if Madara knowsélearns the secret, he can then teleport to where the last body is (assuming thats the secret) and take it out.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Look at Mianto.

Yes, look at the person we've only seen fight one simple jounin who a 13 year old that was the size of a 6 year old was about to beat.
Yes, that's always a good example when describing the "strongest ninja to ever live"

[vane]

Are you referring to this? If so, that's the same body that was killed by Jiraiya.

Or maybe you meant the fat one , that absorbs elemental ninjutsu attacks?
Well, that doesn't help him against Madara who hasn't shown any.

Funny same chapter it shows all of the Peins useing that black blade. Not just the one that Jiraiya killed. So Pein has the black blades and your trring to correct me on that didnt work. Also I was pointing out the fat Peins ability because it is an ability. I was refering to all if not mist of Peins shown abilities here. Which is more than Madara has so far.

This is the only thing left. Yes, he can deatach his arm and shoot it as a missile. But that's about it. And can easily be avoided.
But thats not the only attack or ability he has shown. That is why I pointedq out the rest of the abilities.

Actually teleporting does make you win fights. Look at Mianto.
Yes he won fights against low ranking ninja with the ability. But we are talking about fighting someone that is a lot more powerful. Not just some random jounin who Hinata alone could probably beat.

Plus if Madara knowsélearns the secret, he can then teleport to where the last body is (assuming thats the secret) and take it out.

And here it is. The famous comment. This works in both cases. There are secrets to beating both. So technically if one knows ones secret then the other knows the other by default so as to make the fight fair. Because we dont know if Madara or Pein know each other weakness. So this little comment should be dropped until proven in the manga.

[Smiley]

[Funny same chapter it shows all of the Peins useing that black blade. Not just the one that Jiraiya killed. So Pein has the black blades and your trring to correct me on that didnt work. Also I was pointing out the fat Peins ability because it is an ability. I was refering to all if not mist of Peins shown abilities here. Which is more than Madara has so far.

I thought it was just that one. Sorry.
Anyhow, Jiraiya, with all the swords that pierced his body fell into the lake (or whatever it was).
So he doesn't have them anymore.

That and.. Even if he had them, they're not hard to avoid.
Sharingan + Time/space jutsu = unhittable.

But thats not the only attack or ability he has shown. That is why I pointedq out the rest of the abilities.

Of course it is not. Same as the time/space jutsu isn't the only thing Madara has.
But those are the attacking ablities that he has shown us so far, and hasn't lost.

I'ma repeat this once more.
Imo, Madara wins.
We lack information about both characters to "prove" which one would win.

[vane]

Of course it is not. Same as the time/space jutsu isn't the only thing Madara has.
But those are the attacking ablities that he has shown us so far, and hasn't lost.

No I said shown. Those are the attacks shown. I havnt added any of the ones that he is suppose to know since we havnt seen him actually use them. But as for Madara so far all he has is the time/space justu. Also Madara has never really fought yet either so he has neither lost nor won.

[Smiley]

No I said shown. Those are the attacks shown. I havnt added any of the ones that he is suppose to know since we havnt seen him actually use them. But as for Madara so far all he has is the time/space justu. Also Madara has never really fought yet either so he has neither lost nor won.

And as for Pein he only can deatach his right arm and shoot it at his opponent.
How is that supposed to beat Madara?
Serously, the only reason why that thing hit Jiraiya was because he was near death and had a couple of chakra-absorbing swords stabbed into him.

[Zepzune]

It's true that he is Madara, but I'm still 50/50. Kakashi is the same level as Madara, because Madara is blind in one eye, and isnt as strong as they say.

[vane]

^^ Since when is Madara blind in one eye? I mean yes his eyes are damaged somehow. But who is to say that Madara is blind in one eye.

[Hidnami]

^^ Since when is Madara blind in one eye? I mean yes his eyes are damaged somehow. But who is to say that Madara is blind in one eye.

I guess he means the orange mask he wears. But I still say Madara, because in the manga he was able to make a mile forest fire with Ameratsu.

[vane]

^^ No he wasnt. That was Itachi's Amaterasu. How was Madara able to make a mile forest fire (which the grammer used kinda makes it sound wierd). Madara hasnt shown any ability except his time/space jutsu. The one where he can teleport and make himself intangible. That is it. No more.

[Smiley]

^^ No he wasnt. That was Itachi's Amaterasu. How was Madara able to make a mile forest fire (which the grammer used kinda makes it sound wierd). Madara hasnt shown any ability except his time/space jutsu. The one where he can teleport and make himself intangible. That is it. No more.

And the Sharingan..

[vane]

^^ But the Sharingan is something that everyone knows and the way Im explaining it really isnt an ability. I mean I guess you can consider seeing through genjutsu an ability. And reading attacks but my point still stands. In the way Im explaing it its not really an ability to be added.

[Smiley]

Seeing through all genjutsu.
The ability to copy any ninjutsu, genjutsu or taijutsu.
The ability to see attacks before they come.
It's worth mentioning, believe me. :)
He's practically invincible only with the two "abilities" that have been shown so far.

[vane]

Then that could be said about a bunch of different people. Like I said its not worth mentioning considering everyone knows he has it. And the simple fact that it is not a tech. Its a bloodline trait.

[WhiteFang]

Well essentially I believe that at this point of time Tobi/Madara wins because he is unhittable, and Kakashi has low chakra reserves... so he can last only so long.