Classic Akatsuki Battle Royale (OFFICIAL THREAD)

[MinatoNamikaze]

Well Itachi couldn't have even taken out the stronger members of the police force without Madara's help. Itachi must have just killed the women and children while Madara did the hard yards and killed the police force.

Itachi killed the LEADER. He was by far the strongest Uchiha there. He could take out anyone he wants in the clan.

The Uchiha's did not know that Itachi was a double agent. They would've atleast called the konoha if they were aware they were being attacked.

This argument is pointless caus ewe already proved it was a battle nto an assasination type massacre

Half could mean the defenceless women and children who were not even shinobi. Or they could have even been like Obito who was not strong by any regards. Just because they're part of a clan does not mean they're all fighters.

You mind proving that it was infact the weak ones. Cause I can prove that Itachi actually killed the strongest memebr of the clan :p

Itachi's foresight does nothing to help him in this fight. He did nothing spectacular in battle and hasn't ever shown a great deal of intellect in battle. Itachi is no more brilliant than Hidan or Konan and don't you dare say he is in the same level of intelligence as Kakazu or Deidara.

Wow you thinking hes only as smart as Hidan is pure idiocy and Anti-fanboyism. He screwed with EVERYONE'S mind in the series. You cant be an idiot to do that.

If you have manga proof link it up. Otherwise your just telling us your personal opinion without evidence.

Im not listing opinion, im talking through LOGIC

Oh i see so Itachi just let the women and children run free and didn't touch them?

No, he had to kill them too, but thats not all he killed. He also killed the strongest memebr of the clan.

Yet there's no proof that any katon attacks were even used. Only stealth tactics where Itachi and Madara would use shurikens and kunai's to take out the most and quickly and quietly as possible.

We only see a small portion of the battle. We may see more in a flash back later but even if ninjutsu wasnt used, which would be strange in a SHINOBI fight.

You're the one stating Itachi killed half the clan. He could have only killed all the defenceless women and children while Madara killed the troublesome members. Any pages before Madara revealed he helped Itachi wipe out the clan do not count because that has already been had a retcon.

You mind showing me manga evidence that he only killed women and children cause i can show you edivnece that it wasnt just that.

And the pages I was refering to were said by MADARA after he told sasuke the truth thank you.

Doesn't really prove anything intelligence wise. He knew he was going die, knew Naruto was after Sasuke and forcibly awoken Sasuke's Mangekyo. I really do not see the Einstein efforts here.

Just wait and see. The power he gave naruto will either kill or save sasuke and save konoha, he caught madara by surprise by implanting amateratsu in sasuke (madara admitted he would have died had he not kept a few secrets form Itachi) and we will see the consequences of his actions later. I cant wait till we find out what Itachi gave to naruto adn the end result of all his actions. Itll prove i was right.

Pein is doing the same thing by trying to collect the bijuu and is only simply using a different method to Itachi, the only difference between them is Pein has never lost a battle, never killed his best friend for power and didn't kill all his friends and family.

Wow comparing Pein to ITACHI. Pein wants WAR, Itachi wants PEACE. Pein kills people all the time with no mercy, Itachi only kills when he absolutly must. Please think before you compare two different people like that, your making my job easy :D

Itachi without Mangekyo at 15 wouldn't even be as strong as Sasuke is now, so yes i would actually say Itachi would lose to Naruto if they were both 15.

omg well if naruto didnt have bijuu Itahci would kick his ass too. Put full stregnth naruto vs full stregnth Itachi and Itahci would rape naruto. COmmon its already been proven. Itachi at 15 is just stronger than NAruto AND sasuke. Its not even close actually. NAruto isint even ANBU level in terms of ability. Hes strong enough but not smart enough or strategic enough. Besides look at how much smarter Itachi is then both of them. Hes screwed with EVERYONES mind in the series. You cant be an idiot and do that. Again, please think before making these ridiculous comparisons

You link us up to Itachi's amazing taijutsu and amazing ninjutsu first please.

Pure logistical reasoning.

Graduating the academy is what Naruto and co did before they were part of their respective teams doesn't really make Itachi and uber all around hokage ninja.

Funny they keep mentioning that then isint it? Naruto and co. werent anywhere near skilled enough to do that. They are 5 YEARS behind Itachi in terms of skill.

They're fodder ninja's with masks. Nothing to prove that they're better than jounin. Jounin are teachers while Anbu simply prefer to work alone on missions, Kakashi was originally rusty even though he was part of Anbu before he was the leader of team 7.

WOw are you serious. I thought you were much more knowledgeable than that. The ranking system proves you wrong. Academy<GEnin<Chunin<Jounin<ANBU<Hokage

You can look for the page near the begining of the manga for proof of that if you dont believe me. You could also ask DIY cause Im sure he understand that fact aswell.

Yet you assume he was amazing even without his mangekyo. Which is not true. Mangekyo and Genjutsu is what makes him strong without them he's not very amazing at all.

Mind explaining how he got into ANBU and was captain without MS then? Be Konoha's "NUMBER ONE" by being week. If ITachi's weak everyone in Konoha's weak cause Itachiwas the strongest in Konoha, as is proven by Kakashi and said by kisame.

I daresay Kakashi is even more gifted than Itachi. Kakashi made it to chuunin without any kekkai genkai, using only his own natural talent.

So is Neji less skilled. Itahci was naturally gifted. He graduated from the academy WITHOUT a kekkai Genkai thank you. That means he was 5 years ahead of his time with just his natural ability. Besides you remeber when his father was teaching sasuke? He said why did i think you would be as talented as Itachi, refering to the fact that Itachi was able to do Katon on his first try. That takes talent, not a kekkai Genkai.

Prove Itachi did all the hard work in taking out the military police. He's not made for taking on more than one opponent which is why his clone was creamed easily by only Kakashi and Naruto.

Prove he didnt take out half. Sasuke and madara said he took out half, so just grasp that fact.

The Uchiha's did not know Itachi was a double agent thus had no reason to think konoha knew of their intentions.

ok but do you think they would let uchiha send for help. madara could have teleported to any runners. Besides the third tried to negotiate with uchiha proving uchiha knew the hokage knew of their plans.

Not everyone in the clan was as strong as Itachi and Sasuke, which is what you seem to fail to understand. The Uchiha's are nothing like the hyuuga's where every member can awaken the byakugan. Most Uchiha's don't even awaken theirs.

No i understand that fact clearly. However they are still powerful ninja, more powerful than hyuga or any other clan in the world, minus senju who they are equals with. Clans are very strong, whihc is why a villages power is based on clan stregnth. SP for 2 people to be able to take out the strongest one in the world is an INCREDIBLE feat.

Because he was busy picking up Sasuke so he could molest him in the cave.

Oh thats the reason. Im so wrong im sorry (note sarcasm :D :xd: )

Because as smart and as meticulous as Itachi's planning was Madara is always 2 steps ahead of him. Itachi's plans done nothing to deter Madara getting to Sasuke, he couldn't kill Madara and Madara predicted that Sasuke would kill and surpass Itachi.

Like I said before just wait and see. In the end, it will be proven Itachi will outsmart Madara, thanks in part to the gift he gave naruto.

No there isn't. He's shown his best moves. He's dead and that's the best we'll ever see of him. You can't prove he has anything better than what he shown before he died so you're just making assumptions that he must be better and unless you have proof you are wrong.

No but just think logically. Captain of ANBU without MS, he had a terminal disease, we never saw him go all out and try to kill ANYONE (and when he did he killed half a clan), and murdered half a clan which he couldnt use MS for cause it would have bled him dry of chakra so that means he had to use his normal abilities. Please dont tell me you seriusly think genjutsu was all he used to accomplish ALL that, or are you just being stubborn in trying to prove your point.


Ill try to reply to OBA and DIY later, maybe tomorrow:D

[Muffin]

Itachi killed the LEADER. He was by far the strongest Uchiha there. He could take out anyone he wants in the clan.
Being the leader does not mean he was the strongest. He was the representative of the clan. He was also his own father so it would've been easy to sneak up on him and slit his throat.


This argument is pointless caus ewe already proved it was a battle nto an assasination type massacre
No you haven't proven it. You referred to filler in the anime. Which doesn't count in the manga section.


You mind proving that it was infact the weak ones. Cause I can prove that Itachi actually killed the strongest memebr of the clan :p
Can you prove he killed the strongest? With Itachi's low stamina, chakra and 1vs1 abilities it would make far more sense for him to go on a throat slitting campaign than it would an all out battle. Not to mention Itachi admitted during his fight with Sasuke he could not have done it without Madara.


Wow you thinking hes only as smart as Hidan is pure idiocy and Anti-fanboyism. He screwed with EVERYONE'S mind in the series. You cant be an idiot to do that.
Hidan showed some strategy in using his techniques to his advantage against Asuma. Itachi has shown nothing battle-wise to suggest he's anywhere above Hidan's intelligence.


Im not listing opinion, im talking through LOGIC
Logic that has no evidence to back it up therefore, it is only an opinion and is rendered invalid.


No, he had to kill them too, but thats not all he killed. He also killed the strongest memebr of the clan.
There's no proof that Fugaku was any stronger than the head of the police. You can't prove Itachi killed all the strongest fighting members of the clan.


We only see a small portion of the battle. We may see more in a flash back later but even if ninjutsu wasnt used, which would be strange in a SHINOBI fight.
We didn't see any of the battle. All we saw were bodies lying around with blood everywhere. Everything we saw was filler and doesn't count in the manga section. It's far more logical to assume either Madara used time/space techniques to slaughter most of the Uchiha's or that it was a silent campaign.


You mind showing me manga evidence that he only killed women and children cause i can show you edivnece that it wasnt just that.
Prove that he killed anyone in an actual fight.

And the pages I was refering to were said by MADARA after he told sasuke the truth thank you.
You know it doesn't help your argument when you never actually link any pages.


Just wait and see. The power he gave naruto will either kill or save sasuke and save konoha, he caught madara by surprise by implanting amateratsu in sasuke (madara admitted he would have died had he not kept a few secrets form Itachi) and we will see the consequences of his actions later. I cant wait till we find out what Itachi gave to naruto adn the end result of all his actions. Itll prove i was right.
Still doesn't prove he is any smarter in battle. So he knew Sasuke would go to Madara big wop he still couldn't stop Madara from ever attacking konoha. And even when Itachi did catch Madara by surprise he couldn't kill him because Madara knew Itachi would try something like that so he kept a few secrets. Madara is and always will be 2 steps ahead of Itachi.


Wow comparing Pein to ITACHI. Pein wants WAR, Itachi wants PEACE. Pein kills people all the time with no mercy, Itachi only kills when he absolutly must. Please think before you compare two different people like that, your making my job easy :D
Pein wants peace. He's trying to end war. He is only using a different method to Itachi. Pein kills people to get things done. They are simply different in their methods. Pein has suffered infinitely more than Itachi ever has or will. Which is why they have such different methods.


omg well if naruto didnt have bijuu Itahci would kick his ass too. Put full stregnth naruto vs full stregnth Itachi and Itahci would rape naruto. COmmon its already been proven. Itachi at 15 is just stronger than NAruto AND sasuke. Its not even close actually. NAruto isint even ANBU level in terms of ability. Hes strong enough but not smart enough or strategic enough. Besides look at how much smarter Itachi is then both of them. Hes screwed with EVERYONES mind in the series. You cant be an idiot and do that. Again, please think before making these ridiculous comparisons
This isn't the 21 year old Itachi. This is him at 15. He would be fighting the Naruto and Sasuke right now. Could you honestly say Itachi before he could even use his mangekyo could defeat Naruto and Sasuke? The same Sasuke who killed the current Itachi. I don't know how you could say Naruto isn't strategic. You must've missed his battles with Neji, Kiba and Gaara.


Pure Fanboyism
Fixed.


Funny they keep mentioning that then isint it? Naruto and co. werent anywhere near skilled enough to do that. They are 5 YEARS behind Itachi in terms of skill.
Irrelevant in this topic.


WOw are you serious. I thought you were much more knowledgeable than that. The ranking system proves you wrong. Academy<GEnin<Chunin<Jounin<ANBU<Hokage
Linky clinky (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/9/08/) Nothing to suggest that Anbu are stronger than Jounin. Unless you have something different.


Mind explaining how he got into ANBU and was captain without MS then? Be Konoha's "NUMBER ONE" by being week. If ITachi's weak everyone in Konoha's weak cause Itachiwas the strongest in Konoha, as is proven by Kakashi and said by kisame.
Kisame is an idiot. This is the same guy who was going to fight the guy who almost defeated his leader. Itachi has never at any point been konoha's #1 Anyone who thinks that needs to have their head checked.


So is Neji less skilled. Itahci was naturally gifted. He graduated from the academy WITHOUT a kekkai Genkai thank you. That means he was 5 years ahead of his time with just his natural ability. Besides you remeber when his father was teaching sasuke? He said why did i think you would be as talented as Itachi, refering to the fact that Itachi was able to do Katon on his first try. That takes talent, not a kekkai Genkai.
Irrelevant.

Kakashi also graduated without a Kekkai genkai. He made it to chuunin around the same age while Itachi already had his sharingan.

Prove he didnt take out half. Sasuke and madara said he took out half, so just grasp that fact.
Prove which half he took out. It's very likely he could've only killed the half that were defenseless and weak.


ok but do you think they would let uchiha send for help. madara could have teleported to any runners. Besides the third tried to negotiate with uchiha proving uchiha knew the hokage knew of their plans.
So you finally agree the Uchiha's were caught by surprise and were unable to sound an alarm.


No i understand that fact clearly. However they are still powerful ninja, more powerful than hyuga or any other clan in the world, minus senju who they are equals with. Clans are very strong, whihc is why a villages power is based on clan stregnth. SP for 2 people to be able to take out the strongest one in the world is an INCREDIBLE feat.
And what does that have to do with Itachi lasting longer than 10 of the strongest shinobi around?


Like I said before just wait and see. In the end, it will be proven Itachi will outsmart Madara, thanks in part to the gift he gave naruto.
Irrelevant. Doesn't prove Itachi's can use his brains in the middle of a fight.


No but just think logically. Captain of ANBU without MS, he had a terminal disease, we never saw him go all out and try to kill ANYONE (and when he did he killed half a clan), and murdered half a clan which he couldnt use MS for cause it would have bled him dry of chakra so that means he had to use his normal abilities. Please dont tell me you seriusly think genjutsu was all he used to accomplish ALL that, or are you just being stubborn in trying to prove your point.
So what Kimimaro died of a disease but there's no reason to think he was much stronger than his final battle. You have no proof to back your claims. You are simply restating his background information that doesn't prove he is any stronger than what we've seen of him. Itachi will be lucky to get a final blow on 1 or maybe 2 of the other fighters.

[MinatoNamikaze]

There's 5 bodies with maybe 2 kunai on the ground and a few charred marks.

O sorry, but there arent any pictures of the whole battle field. If you look at other pages from that night thorughout the series, you see bodies and kunai all over the place.

In tsukiyomi? What?

On the first link on my last post sasuke was in tsukiyomi. It shows an even better depiction of the night in the anime version simply cause theres more time to show it. You should watch the anime version of the massacre. Peopl thinks its inaccurate but it has to be accurate becasue if its not, it wont tie up with the manga in the end if theres any plot twists. It shows Itachi doing some seriuos killing and if that was untrue, it would come back and bite the anime writerrs in the ass, so they have to talk to kishi and get the facts straight.

It had to be a slit throat campaign for the most part. Why? No alarms were raised. Does this mean that's all that was done? No there was definitely some normal fighting as well.

I said this to Muffin. Madara and Itahci wouldnt let anyone run adn ask for help. Madara could teleport up to them and kill them. Besides, they woud lhave gone to Hoakge and Danzou and the elders, you think they would have been quick to send help. Thats why no alarm was raised.

I think there was a lot of Katon and Suiton jutsu used be everyone.

Exactly so for Itachi to counter that he would need to use katona need suiton to.

Not to nitpick but the Uchiha clan isn't the only users of genjutsu. Oh there's no proof on if he killed half or if Madara killed more.

Theres no proof either way, so until there is we can assume it was 50/50. We cant automatically assume it was all madara. Besides its hinted Itachi did just as much as Madara. He could have done it all by himself. SO for him to kill half without getting a scratch or breaking a sweat isint that great of an achevment. Proof is that he was assigned to single handedly take out uchiha. Danzou and co had no knowledge of Madara. INfact Madara was a late addition. They knew Itachi woudl do it himself.

I'll breifly touch on this. There is absolutely no evidence to support Itachi as being anywhere near as powerful as Jiraiya's level. If he was that powerful its obvious Itachi would have just killed Pein to prevent the massive bloodshed he disliked to see.

He knew he couldnt beat Pein without the secret, and if he tried, he woudl have to face all of Akatsuki at once. and he wouldnt have been able to do what he did to sasuke and Naruto.

Not really he just has the sharingan and awesome paralleled skills in genjutsu.

He is skilled without it. Proof is that he graduated the academy without EITHER at SEVEN

What? No Itachi had genjutsu he was a prodigy in genjutsu and had the sharingan.

Thats not all he had.He is skilled without it. Proof is that he graduated the academy without EITHER at SEVEN

He has TERRIBLE element control compared to shinobi who use their elements a lot. His over sized Katon wasn't anything we haven't seen before. His taijutsu was ok. He was fast but he didn't have any specific style of had to hand combat. His ninjutsu was average from what we had seen. The only things he excelled at was his MS and genjutsu. That made him dangerous since the MS has Amaretsu (ninjutsu) Susano (summoning) and Tsykuomi (genjutsu) and all were very powerful. But he didn't have to work his way into being skilled enough to use them. Once he gained the MS he simply had those techniques. No skill relation what so ever in those fields.

He never had to use anything else since he had MS and genjutsu. He has the most pwerful genjtusu and ninjutsu (arguably up there iwth black hole, rasenshuriken, and kirin) and add sasuno onto that. Why would he NEED to use anything else? It would be like a step down. He already had them before he had MS otherwise he woudlnt have been as powerful. Remerber Danzou didnt know he had MS when he gave him his mission. That means he could have done the whole massacre by himslef with regualr sharingan.

He's shown superb reflexes...whcih he needs to use the sharingan to its full potential. Nothing else was above average about his ninjutsi skills.

Common you think the "number one leaf shinobi" was just average ninjutsu? Amateratsu proves you wrong. People say Naruto is a master of ninjutsu cause of rasenshuriken and thats just one tech, so why is Itahci any different. Infact Amateratsu is unavoidable so its even more potent than rasenshuriken, so in essence, Itachi is more of a master of ninjutsu than naruto.

He had awakened his 3 tome sharingan by then and that alone allows him to react to the chakra color (knowing what jutsu they are going to use next) and read their body language since essentially the sharingan would be comparable to having the vision of a hawk. This alone gives him an advantage over most Anbu candidates.

Then explain why he is the ONLY uchiha in ANBU if sharingan was his only edge.

He has shown absolutely no ability in chakra molding and a little above average with element manipulation (larger than normal katon).

Like I said before, he hasnt had to.

He has a sharingan and genjutsu. He's a prodigy but he's not a ninjutsu/taijutsu prodigy or he would be like Lee or Naruto and pulling out some inner gates/rasenshriuken. instead he's so proficient in genjutsu he can capture the enemy in one by pointing at them.

I never said he was a prodigy in anything in particular. He is well rounded and thus he is super strong. Thats why hes a progidy, not becasue he is good at genjtusu

Master refers to their over all skills in the field. Sasuke/Naruto/Jiriya/the 4th would be considered "masters" because of their highly advanced ninjutsu skills.

Common you think the "number one leaf shinobi" was just average ninjutsu? Amateratsu proves you wrong. People say Naruto is a master of ninjutsu cause of rasenshuriken and thats just one tech, so why is Itahci any different. Infact Amateratsu is unavoidable so its even more potent than rasenshuriken, so in essence, Itachi is more of a master of ninjutsu than naruto.

Oro was about quantity and not quality. What I define as a "master" at ninjutsu is somene who has obtained the skills to create techniques so powerful they are literally legendary (rasenshriuken/Kirin)

Wel then what are Amateratsu, and sasuno then?

That doesn't prove anything. It just shows that he can move his hands really fast.

Which is usless if he cant do incredible ninjutsu. Its like practicing soccer all day and getting very good in practice. If you dont play soccer well in games though, theres no point right?

There's more to Taijutsu than just being quick. I won't argue he isn't fast because he is but he's not strong and doesn't have mastery or even the beginnings for learning the gates.

No by no means did i mean to imply he was a master of Taijutsu. Hes not at lees level, noone is (except Gai), but he is much higher than average to be in ANBU. Hes not some chunin level taijutsu user as everyone makes him out to be. Thats what im argueing

Itachi is a strong shinobi but he isn't built for ffa scenarios. He's a brutal 1vs1 fighter but a shitty everyone for themselves fighter.

Well thats not necessarly true. A tsukiyomi, 2 amateratsu's and sasuno for a while. Take out at least 4 or 5 memebrs before the fight even starts :D. He couldnt kill madara or pein in that state, but it depends on how you make the scenario. If its everyone vs Itachi hed only get like 4 or 5 people but if its 1 v1 or 1 v 3 the whole time he could take out more members than anyone else. Thats what I dont like about FFA. ANyone could win if they have the right scenario. Just leads to alot of bickering.

I have to say that was another great post. Your points are all valid and show you have knowledge of simple info. Ill rep you again for that.:D

[D.I.Y Death]

Oh man what have I missed? Ok tomorrow after my appointments I'm going to go through this mess and clean it up but from the pleminary glance I gave it this is getting down right retarded. MinatoNamikaze we know you love Itachi...thats blatantly and painfully obvious but you're blowing all his abilities out of proportion. He isn't a god he's a genjutsu master. Genjutsu is effective 1vs1 and in almost any 1vs1 fight Itachi would win. HOWEVER this is a ffa. Itachi has low stamina slightly better than average taijutsu. Shitty ninjutsu and incredibly low stamina/chakra. While he won't be the first to die there's no way he'll survive more than half way through this battle based upon his low chakra levels and is less than outstanding taijutsu skills which he would need to compensate for his lack of chakra. Sorry if I'm coming across a little harsh. I'm tired and need sleep. I'll post a more in depth and proper response sometime tomorrow.

[0ba]

Itachi killed the LEADER. He was by far the strongest Uchiha there. He could take out anyone he wants in the clan.Whatever. Maybe the clan wasn't strong. Maybe Konoha clans just suck. After all, there are also the Inuzuka's, Akimichi's and Yamanaka's too. :S
Maybe Madara was just much more effective than Itachi and killed almost all the ninja, and left the civilians to Itachi?

This argument is pointless caus ewe already proved it was a battle nto an assasination type massacreWhy was he so relaxed then? He hadn't used the MS. He hadn't used Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu, or his eyes would be bleeding. And he did it as an ANBU, he was wearing their uniform thingy, with the sword at his back, and killed his father (the strongest, according to you) with ONLY his sword, I think the blood splatters show it wasn't a fire or water tech. It was an assassination. You don't go into battle with a WHOLE CLAN.

You mind proving that it was infact the weak ones. Cause I can prove that Itachi actually killed the strongest memebr of the clan :pExactly. With a sword. It was an assassination, not a battle.

Wow you thinking hes only as smart as Hidan is pure idiocy and Anti-fanboyism. He screwed with EVERYONE'S mind in the series. You cant be an idiot to do that.Not in battle, he didn't prove his intelligence in battle, the way Shikamaru, Kakashi, or Naruto consistently do.

Im not listing opinion, im talking through LOGICYou THINK you're talking through logic.

No, he had to kill them too, but thats not all he killed. He also killed the strongest memebr of the clan.SO?

We only see a small portion of the battle. We may see more in a flash back later but even if ninjutsu wasnt used, which would be strange in a SHINOBI fight.Shinobis use taijutsu too, you know.

You mind showing me manga evidence that he only killed women and children cause i can show you edivnece that it wasnt just that.Show evidence that he's the one who killed his father. Not what he said. Him doing it.

Just wait and see. The power he gave naruto will either kill or save sasuke and save konoha, he caught madara by surprise by implanting amateratsu in sasuke (madara admitted he would have died had he not kept a few secrets form Itachi) and we will see the consequences of his actions later. I cant wait till we find out what Itachi gave to naruto adn the end result of all his actions. Itll prove i was right.Whatever. Now when you have no evidence, you say, wait and see.
Wait and see, Madara will reveal that Itachi only killed a rat. :S

Wow comparing Pein to ITACHI. Pein wants WAR, Itachi wants PEACE. Pein kills people all the time with no mercy, Itachi only kills when he absolutly must. Please think before you compare two different people like that, your making my job easy :D Eh? Pein wants an army, SO strong with the tailed beasts power, that will stop people from fighting. Killing, for peace in the end. Itachi killed the clan, for peace in Konoha in the end. Different? I think not.

omg well if naruto didnt have bijuu Itahci would kick his ass too. Put full stregnth naruto vs full stregnth Itachi and Itahci would rape naruto. COmmon its already been proven. Itachi at 15 is just stronger than NAruto AND sasuke. Its not even close actually. NAruto isint even ANBU level in terms of ability. Hes strong enough but not smart enough or strategic enough. Besides look at how much smarter Itachi is then both of them. Hes screwed with EVERYONES mind in the series. You cant be an idiot and do that. Again, please think before making these ridiculous comparisonsTrue, Itachi would rape Naruto again. But NOT at 15. Naruto doesn't need to, and will probably NEVER be ANBU, he isn't stealthy, or cool, and thrives in battles, not assassination or investigation. (but that might be wrong, since he can use the clones for recon.) ANBU are crap. What good thing have they been shown to do in the series? Which good battle have they fought? Who have they killed? They're so weak, Kabuto kills them so easily, and he's almost Kakashi's equal, and they sent like 100 to capture old man Danzou. :S
I'm sure Itachi alone, or in a 4 man jounin team would be enough for him.

Pure logistical reasoning.*shakes head*

Funny they keep mentioning that then isint it? Naruto and co. werent anywhere near skilled enough to do that. They are 5 YEARS behind Itachi in terms of skill.Enough of that 5 years sh!t. I'll get to that later.

WOw are you serious. I thought you were much more knowledgeable than that. The ranking system proves you wrong. Academy<GEnin<Chunin<Jounin<ANBU<HokageWe've only been shown genin -> chuunin -> jounin. Hokage isn't a level. To show that your logic fails, when the 3rd stopped being the Hokage, he'd become ANBU?

Mind explaining how he got into ANBU and was captain without MS then? Be Konoha's "NUMBER ONE" by being week. If ITachi's weak everyone in Konoha's weak cause Itachiwas the strongest in Konoha, as is proven by Kakashi and said by kisame.Weak without the MS, yes. No, he isn't Konoha's best ninja. Gai is immune to his genjutsu, fighting and looking at his feet, and with the gates, he'd totally pwn him.

So is Neji less skilled. Itahci was naturally gifted. He graduated from the academy WITHOUT a kekkai Genkai thank you. That means he was 5 years ahead of his time with just his natural ability. Besides you remeber when his father was teaching sasuke? He said why did i think you would be as talented as Itachi, refering to the fact that Itachi was able to do Katon on his first try. That takes talent, not a kekkai Genkai.Sasuke's dad was a fool. Sasuke NOW is better than Itachi would ever have been. But Sasuke eventually learned the Katon in such a short time, and his father was impressed too. His mother said to him that all his dad used to talk about was Sasuke.

Prove he didnt take out half. Sasuke and madara said he took out half, so just grasp that fact.Bull. You just said Madara said he took out the whole clan. Which do we believe? :S

ok but do you think they would let uchiha send for help. madara could have teleported to any runners. Besides the third tried to negotiate with uchiha proving uchiha knew the hokage knew of their plans.The Uchiha did NOT know of their plan Only one Uchiha did. Itachi.

No i understand that fact clearly. However they are still powerful ninja, more powerful than hyuga or any other clan in the world, minus senju who they are equals with. Clans are very strong, whihc is why a villages power is based on clan stregnth. SP for 2 people to be able to take out the strongest one in the world is an INCREDIBLE feat.More powerful than the Hyuuga? Wasn't it said that the hyuuga was the most powerful clan in Konoha? :S

Like I said before just wait and see. In the end, it will be proven Itachi will outsmart Madara, thanks in part to the gift he gave naruto.In the end, Madara will marry Sasuke in California. Stop trying to predict the future. One plan failed, and the 2nd looks like it'll be unnecessary anyway.

No but just think logically. Captain of ANBU without MS, he had a terminal disease, we never saw him go all out and try to kill ANYONE (and when he did he killed half a clan), and murdered half a clan which he couldnt use MS for cause it would have bled him dry of chakra so that means he had to use his normal abilities. Please dont tell me you seriusly think genjutsu was all he used to accomplish ALL that, or are you just being stubborn in trying to prove your point.But he has enough chakra to kill half a clan with katon attacks? :S
Yamato was captain of ANBU, he's shown how weak he is, and that he's just a poor copy of the 1st.

And you should be banned from using the word 'stubborn'.

O sorry, but there arent any pictures of the whole battle field. If you look at other pages from that night thorughout the series, you see bodies and kunai all over the place.Showing that it was an assassination, not a battle.

Exactly so for Itachi to counter that he would need to use katona need suiton to.Shinobis don't dodge anymore?

Theres no proof either way, so until there is we can assume it was 50/50. We cant automatically assume it was all madara. Besides its hinted Itachi did just as much as Madara. He could have done it all by himself. SO for him to kill half without getting a scratch or breaking a sweat isint that great of an achevment. Proof is that he was assigned to single handedly take out uchiha. Danzou and co had no knowledge of Madara. INfact Madara was a late addition. They knew Itachi woudl do it himself.They aren't equal in any way. Can Itachi avoid an amaterasu? :S
Madara definitely killed more than half, if you ask me, he's faster, stronger, and has had the MS for only God know how long. And he can teleport.
Itachi knew he couldn't have done it himself, so he asked Madara.

He knew he couldnt beat Pein without the secret, and if he tried, he woudl have to face all of Akatsuki at once. and he wouldnt have been able to do what he did to sasuke and Naruto.Did he know Pein had six bodies? All they knew about Pein was his normal body. Stop making things up.
It's like saying everyone knew Sasori made himself into a puppet.

He is skilled without it. Proof is that he graduated the academy without EITHER at SEVENEnough.
What do you use to graduate from the academy? I can't watch you say this sh!t anymore.

That's right. Not ninjutsu talent and genjutsu, but a simple BUNSHIN

So Naruto IS better, because at 12, he could use a KAGE BUNSHIN

Will you stop telling us about what he did at 7 now?

He never had to use anything else since he had MS and genjutsu. He has the most pwerful genjtusu and ninjutsu (arguably up there iwth black hole, rasenshuriken, and kirin) and add sasuno onto that. Why would he NEED to use anything else? It would be like a step down. He already had them before he had MS otherwise he woudlnt have been as powerful. Remerber Danzou didnt know he had MS when he gave him his mission. That means he could have done the whole massacre by himslef with regualr sharingan.He already had the most powerful genjutsu and ninjutsu before he got the MS? WOW.

Common you think the "number one leaf shinobi" was just average ninjutsu? Amateratsu proves you wrong. People say Naruto is a master of ninjutsu cause of rasenshuriken and thats just one tech, so why is Itahci any different. Infact Amateratsu is unavoidable so its even more potent than rasenshuriken, so in essence, Itachi is more of a master of ninjutsu than naruto.Without the MS, he was average at ninjutsu.
Amaterasu is unavoidable? Didn't Sasuke avoid it? :S Can't it be blocked? :S

Then explain why he is the ONLY uchiha in ANBU if sharingan was his only edge.Irrelevant.

Like I said before, he hasnt had to.Because he can't? Should we assume that Jiraiya didn't use the death reaper seal because he didn't have to? Such stupid assumptions.

I never said he was a prodigy in anything in particular. He is well rounded and thus he is super strong. Thats why hes a progidy, not becasue he is good at genjtusuSo he isn't even a prodigy in genjutsu? Funny. Well rounded indeed. Have we seen him do any spectacular taijutsu or ninjutsu without the MS? Well rounded indeed.



Common you think the "number one leaf shinobi" was just average ninjutsu? Amateratsu proves you wrong. People say Naruto is a master of ninjutsu cause of rasenshuriken and thats just one tech, so why is Itahci any different. Infact Amateratsu is unavoidable so its even more potent than rasenshuriken, so in essence, Itachi is more of a master of ninjutsu than naruto. He was average at ninjutsu. And killed his friend and got crazy eyes. He didn't master anything.


Which is usless if he cant do incredible ninjutsu. Its like practicing soccer all day and getting very good in practice. If you dont play soccer well in games though, theres no point right?No. To master ninjutsu, you use LESS seals, not faster seals, as I said earlier. So, no, he just made up a little by being faster at seals, because he couldn't master them and use LESS seals because he was average at ninjutsu.

No by no means did i mean to imply he was a master of Taijutsu. Hes not at lees level, noone is (except Gai), but he is much higher than average to be in ANBU. Hes not some chunin level taijutsu user as everyone makes him out to be. Thats what im argueingHigher than average? Because he's in ANBU? Where do you get this from? Have you seen any ANBU member using taijutsu? :S
He IS chuunin level at taijutsu.

Well thats not necessarly true. A tsukiyomi, 2 amateratsu's and sasuno for a while. Take out at least 4 or 5 memebrs before the fight even starts :D. He couldnt kill madara or pein in that state, but it depends on how you make the scenario. If its everyone vs Itachi hed only get like 4 or 5 people but if its 1 v1 or 1 v 3 the whole time he could take out more members than anyone else. Thats what I dont like about FFA. ANyone could win if they have the right scenario. Just leads to alot of bickering.At the beginning of the fight, he just shoots off 2 amaterasus, and tsukuyomi, and uses Susano instantly? Fail.

This is just blatant fanboyism, imo. I'm sure Itachi gives you a hard-on. :p

[Jackums]

This is just blatant fanboyism, imo. I'm sure Itachi gives you a hard-on. :p

rofl! :lol: sorry about the off topic-ness, but i just had to laugh at that :xd:

[Smiley]

I don't want to get much into this, just thought I should point out some things.

True, Itachi would rape Naruto again. But NOT at 15.


Um bro, Itachi already had Mangekyou at the age of 13. He also stomped Naruto twice without it. (he didn't even use Sharingan the first time.)

Weak without the MS, yes.

Lmao. Just no. Itachi crushed the genius of the sannin (Orochimaru) without Mangekyou Sharingan.
The same Orochimaru who fought on par with Hiruzen Sarutobi, who was stated to be the strongest hokage of Konoha and the strongest kage in fire country.
Weak without MS? I beg to differ.

Sasuke's dad was a fool. Sasuke NOW is better than Itachi would ever have been. But Sasuke eventually learned the Katon in such a short time

Short time? Itachi learned it in his first attempt.
Also, current Sasuke being stronger than Itachi is false.

So Naruto IS better, because at 12, he could use a KAGE BUNSHIN


Itachi could use Kage bunshin at the age of six or seven.


Without the MS, he was average at ninjutsu.
Amaterasu is unavoidable? Didn't Sasuke avoid it? Can't it be blocked?

He hasn't demonstrated many ninjutsu or taijutsu techniques aside from his Mangekyou; however it's not all about the numbers, more about proficiency.
Without MS he fought on par with Kakashi using only ninjutsu; and taijutsu blitzed Kurenai. Both were elite jounins of Konoha.

Regarding Amaterasu, Sasuke didn't avoid it. He was hit with it, but used snake bulimia to create a new body. It can't be blocked unless you have knowledge on it and know that it's about to hit you. Which not many can do.

[0ba]

I don't want to get much into this, just thought I should point out some things.



Um bro, Itachi already had Mangekyou at the age of 13. He also stomped Naruto twice without it. (he didn't even use Sharingan the first time.)13?
Where did you get this from? Evidence?

If that's true, then sure, Itachi at 15 would pwn Naruto.

Lmao. Just no. Itachi crushed the genius of the sannin (Orochimaru) without Mangekyou Sharingan.
The same Orochimaru who fought on par with Hiruzen Sarutobi, who was stated to be the strongest hokage of Konoha and the strongest kage in fire country.
Weak without MS? I beg to differ.With sharingan genjutsu. Only. Right?
So? Oro is pathetically weak to genjutsu, and Itachi's probably the best at it. What did you expect? :S
By tomorrow, we'll confirm that Konohamaru has killed a body of Pein. Kakashi could be dead now, after fighting one of Pein's bodies too. So?

Kurenai, had Itachi not intervened, would have beaten the guy who almost beat the whole Team Gai with 30% chakra, who is part of Akatsuki, who are rumoured to all be Kage level. So? Does that mean she's so strong? Does it mean she's Kage level? Lee pwnd Sasuke with taijutsu earlier when he was poor at taijutsu. His strengths were Oro's weaknesses. Doesn't mean he's all that without the MS.

Short time? Itachi learned it in his first attempt.
Also, current Sasuke being stronger than Itachi is false.If that's true, alright. I find that hard to believe though.

I believe Sasuke is stronger. He has some MS genjutsu, Amaterasu, and a third tech he hasn't used yet (iirc, the MS awakens with 3 techs, genjutsu, ninjutsu, and a last one, could be a summon or something)
And since he's already as good as Itachi at taijutsu, better at ninjutsu, and can counter Itachi's genjutsu, I say he's better. And Sasuke SHOULD be better at taijutsu since he has chidori current which paralyses, chidori, and kirin. And with amaterasu, and better sight, and a genjutsu. (useless, since Itachi would counter it with his MS) And when Itachi uses Susano'o, doesn't his MS turn off? Then he'd be weak to genjutsu too. I'm going with Sasuke for now, but I don't think this is the right thread for that.

Itachi could use Kage bunshin at the age of six or seven.Where did you get that from?
I don't think we ever even got to see him use Kage Bunshin at his old age. Only mizu and karasu bunshins, iirc.

He hasn't demonstrated many ninjutsu or taijutsu techniques aside from his Mangekyou; however it's not all about the numbers, more about proficiency.
Without MS he fought on par with Kakashi using only ninjutsu; and taijutsu blitzed Kurenai. Both were elite jounins of Konoha.At par? For how long? Didn't they just use a few techs and that was it? He was also protecting Kurenai and Asuma, the useless duo. And he didn't even use Chidori, iirc, or the summons, Itachi fled after using Tsukuyomi on him when he met his daddy, Gai-sensei. :p

And please, Konohamaru would win in a taijutsu fight with Kurenai. :p

Regarding Amaterasu, Sasuke didn't avoid it. He was hit with it, but used snake bulimia to create a new body. It can't be blocked unless you have knowledge on it and know that it's about to hit you. Which not many can do.Agree. It can be blocked though, if you surround yourself with clones or something else, or are quick enough to react, because as shown in the Sasuke fight, he was running away from it, before it eventually hit him, I'm sure a substitution jutsu would work nicely. And if someone is moving extremely fast, like Lee with his gates open, I don't see how Itachi would use it on him when he can't even see him. During the chuunin exams, Kakashi couldn't follow Lee when he was fighting Gaara.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

On the first link on my last post sasuke was in tsukiyomi. It shows an even better depiction of the night in the anime version simply cause theres more time to show it. You should watch the anime version of the massacre. Peopl thinks its inaccurate but it has to be accurate becasue if its not, it wont tie up with the manga in the end if theres any plot twists. It shows Itachi doing some seriuos killing and if that was untrue, it would come back and bite the anime writerrs in the ass, so they have to talk to kishi and get the facts straight.
Ok can I ask this.
If you are using the stuff Sasuke saw while under the effects of Tsukyomi.
How do you know what he is seeing is real?
Tsukyomi is a Genjutsu and so you cannot prove that what he saw there wasn't just some illusion conjured up by Itachi to further screw up Sasukes mind.
I said this to Muffin. Madara and Itahci wouldnt let anyone run adn ask for help. Madara could teleport up to them and kill them. Besides, they woud lhave gone to Hoakge and Danzou and the elders, you think they would have been quick to send help. Thats why no alarm was raised.
Or the fog of war.
No-one went for help because no-one knew what was going on til it was too late.
Exactly so for Itachi to counter that he would need to use katona need suiton to.
not necessarily.
Theres no proof either way, so until there is we can assume it was 50/50. We cant automatically assume it was all madara. Besides its hinted Itachi did just as much as Madara. He could have done it all by himself. SO for him to kill half without getting a scratch or breaking a sweat isint that great of an achevment. Proof is that he was assigned to single handedly take out uchiha. Danzou and co had no knowledge of Madara. INfact Madara was a late addition. They knew Itachi woudl do it himself.
Possibly. but then why did Itachi need Madara If he could do it on his own?
He knew he couldnt beat Pein without the secret, and if he tried, he woudl have to face all of Akatsuki at once. and he wouldnt have been able to do what he did to sasuke and Naruto.
irrelevant
He is skilled without it. Proof is that he graduated the academy without EITHER at SEVEN
So? Pein never went to an academy and he was stronger then Itachi..... ultimately that means nothing.

He never had to use anything else since he had MS and genjutsu. He has the most pwerful genjtusu and ninjutsu (arguably up there iwth black hole, rasenshuriken, and kirin) and add sasuno onto that. Why would he NEED to use anything else? It would be like a step down. He already had them before he had MS otherwise he woudlnt have been as powerful. Remerber Danzou didnt know he had MS when he gave him his mission. That means he could have done the whole massacre by himslef with regualr sharingan.
possibly. But then he had help so all he needed was regular Sharingan.
Common you think the "number one leaf shinobi" was just average ninjutsu? Amateratsu proves you wrong. People say Naruto is a master of ninjutsu cause of rasenshuriken and thats just one tech, so why is Itahci any different. Infact Amateratsu is unavoidable so its even more potent than rasenshuriken, so in essence, Itachi is more of a master of ninjutsu than naruto.
No.
Firstly Sasuke dodged Ameratsu so it is avoidable.
Secondly a master of ninjutsu is exactly that. A master.
Naruto and Itachi are far from masters of ninjutsu. Kakashi is probably the one I would call a master of Ninjutsu as he has a wide range and good combinations unlike Itachi who simply spams one or two moves repeatedly.
Then explain why he is the ONLY uchiha in ANBU if sharingan was his only edge.
Was he. Where does it say he was the only ANBU Uchiha?
Also remember that most Uchiha went to the Uchiha police force.
I never said he was a prodigy in anything in particular. He is well rounded and thus he is super strong. Thats why hes a progidy, not becasue he is good at genjtusu
Itachi is a genjutsu user. He is Far from Well rounded and if you look closely he relies on genjutsu and spamming a couple of ninjusu techniques. He is a specialist with good speed not an All rounder.

Well thats not necessarly true. A tsukiyomi, 2 amateratsu's and sasuno for a while. Take out at least 4 or 5 memebrs before the fight even starts :D. He couldnt kill madara or pein in that state, but it depends on how you make the scenario. If its everyone vs Itachi hed only get like 4 or 5 people but if its 1 v1 or 1 v 3 the whole time he could take out more members than anyone else. Thats what I dont like about FFA. ANyone could win if they have the right scenario. Just leads to alot of bickering.

Your assuming everyone just stands around and lets him get these techs off. They will counter and fight back. At most he would kill probably 2 others if he tried what you said.

Lmao. Just no. Itachi crushed the genius of the sannin (Orochimaru) without Mangekyou Sharingan.
The same Orochimaru who fought on par with Hiruzen Sarutobi, who was stated to be the strongest hokage of Konoha and the strongest kage in fire country.
Weak without MS? I beg to differ.
Ok this is sooooooo wrong I barely know where to start.
1/Sarutobi was the second strongest Hokage. Minato was the strongest.
2/Itachi never fought Orochimaru, Oro tried to take itachis body and Itachi used his Sharingan to stop him. It was the same with Sasuke and so it meant nothing in terms of which was actually better at fighting (Genjutsu, ninjutsu or Taijutsu).
Itachi could use Kage bunshin at the age of six or seven.
Can you prove this?
He hasn't demonstrated many ninjutsu or taijutsu techniques aside from his Mangekyou; however it's not all about the numbers, more about proficiency.
Without MS he fought on par with Kakashi using only ninjutsu; and taijutsu blitzed Kurenai. Both were elite jounins of Konoha.
Correction.
He used MS to beat Kakashi (Initailly they only traded a few blows)
Kurenai's taijutsu was average as she is a Genjutsu specialist and thus the worst opponent for her to face is a sharingan user.

Regarding Amaterasu, Sasuke didn't avoid it. He was hit with it, but used snake bulimia to create a new body. It can't be blocked unless you have knowledge on it and know that it's about to hit you. Which not many can do.
Itachi used Ameratsu more then once and Sasuke dodged it.

[Smiley]

Ok this is sooooooo wrong I barely know where to start.
1/Sarutobi was the second strongest Hokage. Minato was the strongest.

I didn't say he was the strongest. I said he was said to be the strongest. And to be honest, I do believe he was, since both the databook and the manga confirm this.


2/Itachi never fought Orochimaru, Oro tried to take itachis body and Itachi used his Sharingan to stop him. It was the same with Sasuke and so it meant nothing in terms of which was actually better at fighting (Genjutsu, ninjutsu or Taijutsu).

Correction; Itachi defeated Orochimaru with Kanashibari(paralyzing) genjutsu and a kunai. Oro never used his ritual on Itachi. Only on Sasuke. At least it wasn't shown on-panel.


Can you prove this?


I can't find any specific links now; however Sasuke and Itachi played hide and seek in the forest, and Itachi used a Kage bunshin to trick Sasuke.

Itachi used Ameratsu more then once and Sasuke dodged it.

Sasuke never dodged Amaterasu. Itachi used it twice, true. The first was used to burn away Sasuke's Katon, the second one he managed to outrun for a while, but was hit with in the end and used Orochimaru's snake bulimia to create a new body.

13?
Where did you get this from? Evidence?

If that's true, then sure, Itachi at 15 would pwn Naruto.

It's true. Itachi became an ANBU captain at the age of 13.. Around that time, Uchiha police suspected him to be Shisui's murderer. That same day Sasuke first saw Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan.
For timeline references read this thread.
(http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=267430)

With sharingan genjutsu. Only. Right?
So? Oro is pathetically weak to genjutsu, and Itachi's probably the best at it. What did you expect? :S

First of all, how do you know Orochimaru was weak to genjutsu? That's like saying that Kakuzu was weak to ninjutsu because he lost to Naruto's FRS.

The fact that Oro, and many other people were defeated with Itachi's basic genjutsu doesn't suggest that they were all weak to it, but rather the power of Itachi's genjutsu itself.

I believe Sasuke is stronger.

Ok, this is debatable. Let's not get too much off topic.

At par? For how long? Didn't they just use a few techs and that was it? He was also protecting Kurenai and Asuma, the useless duo. And he didn't even use Chidori, iirc, or the summons, Itachi fled after using Tsukuyomi on him when he met his daddy, Gai-sensei. :p

Ugh, don't tell me you're another one of those who think Itachi fled because he was afraid of Gai.
Regarding the fight, Kakashi also said that Itachi wasn't showing his full power.


And please, Konohamaru would win in a taijutsu fight with Kurenai. :p

He isn't chuunin level at taijutsu like you said.

Speed? He matched Sasuke's CS2 speed. He was so fast that Kakashi's sharingan couldn't detect him when he appeared behind him. He speed blitzed three Uchiha police guys in matter of seconds.
Reaction and dodging speed? Sharingan perception/prediction abilities are a huge advantage when it comes to close combat. Sasuke was able to avoid all Kyuubi Naruto's physical attacks thanks to this.
Skills with weapons? The best we have seen in the manga so far. He was able to hit 8 targets that were out of his field of vision with his eyes closed.
Brute strength? Itachi's 30% Shoten(who had only 30% of the full strength) matched Kakashi's.
Other taijutsu feats - Itachi caught Sasuke's super-Chidori and redirected it. He blitzed Sasuke to a wall twice and also dodged Chidori in mid-air (don't ask how, but he did.)

I'm not saying he is Gai/Lee taijutsu level but he isn't completely outclassed when it comes to ninja categories other than genjutsu.

Agree. It can be blocked though, if you surround yourself with clones or something else, or are quick enough to react, because as shown in the Sasuke fight, he was running away from it, before it eventually hit him

True, however Sasuke knew of Amaterasu's mechanics and started to move a moment before Itachi focused his eye on him.
This is impossible for anyone who doesn't have knowledge on it.

The reason why it is impossible to react to it, or use substitution jutsu to escape, is that it doesn't actually travel from the user, but instantly appears on the target. Its mechanics are much like time/space jutsu because there's no spacial travel.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I didn't say he was the strongest. I said he was said to be the strongest. And to be honest, I do believe he was, since both the databook and the manga confirm this.



Correction; Itachi defeated Orochimaru with Kanashibari(paralyzing) genjutsu and a kunai. Oro never used his ritual on Itachi. Only on Sasuke. At least it wasn't shown on-panel.



I can't find any specific links now; however Sasuke and Itachi played hide and seek in the forest, and Itachi used a Kage bunshin to trick Sasuke.



Sasuke never dodged Amaterasu. Itachi used it twice, true. The first was used to burn away Sasuke's Katon, the second one he managed to outrun for a while, but was hit with in the end and used Orochimaru's snake bulimia to create a new body.



It's true. Itachi became an ANBU captain at the age of 13.. Around that time, Uchiha police suspected him to be Shisui's murderer. That same day Sasuke first saw Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan.
For timeline references read this thread.
(http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=267430)



First of all, how do you know Orochimaru was weak to genjutsu? That's like saying that Kakuzu was weak to ninjutsu because he lost to Naruto's FRS.

The fact that Oro, and many other people were defeated with Itachi's basic genjutsu doesn't suggest that they were all weak to it, but rather the power of Itachi's genjutsu itself.



Ok, this is debatable. Let's not get too much off topic.



Ugh, don't tell me you're another one of those who think Itachi fled because he was afraid of Gai.
Regarding the fight, Kakashi also said that Itachi wasn't showing his full power.



He isn't chuunin level at taijutsu as you called him.

Speed? He matched Sasuke's CS2 Juin speed. He was so fast that Kakashi's sharingan couldn't detect him when he appeared behind him. He speed blitzed three Uchiha police guys in matter of seconds.
Reaction and dodging speed? Sharingan perception/prediction abilities are a huge advantage when it comes to close combat. Sasuke was able to avoid all Kyuubi Naruto's physical attacks thanks to this.
Skills with weapons? The best we have seen in the manga so far. He was able to hit 8 targets that were out of his field of vision with his eyes closed.
Brute strength? Itachi's 30% Shoten(who had only 30% of the full strength) matched Kakashi's.
Other taijutsu feats - Itachi caught Sasuke's super-Chidori and redirected it. He blitzed Sasuke to a wall twice and also dodged Chidori in mid-air (don't ask how, but he did.)

I'm not saying he is Gai/Lee taijutsu level but he isn't completely outclassed when it comes to ninja categories other than genjutsu.



True, however Sasuke knew of Amaterasu's mechanics and started to move a moment before Itachi focused his eye on him.
This is impossible for anyone who doesn't have knowledge on it.

The reason why it is impossible to react to it, or use substitution jutsu to escape, is that it doesn't actually travel from the user, but instantly appears on the target. Its mechanics are much like time/space jutsu because there's no spacial travel.

wow great post. i was just about to repsond to the post you did and you got all the points I wanted to state. +1 rep for that

[0ba]

Correction; Itachi defeated Orochimaru with Kanashibari(paralyzing) genjutsu and a kunai. Oro never used his ritual on Itachi. Only on Sasuke. At least it wasn't shown on-panel.That shows that Oro was weak to genjutsu. Shikamaru broke out of something similar, a similar paralysing genjutsu by Tayuya. :S

Sasuke never dodged Amaterasu. Itachi used it twice, true. The first was used to burn away Sasuke's Katon, the second one he managed to outrun for a while, but was hit with in the end and used Orochimaru's snake bulimia to create a new body.You don't outrun something that appears instantly. It takes time to hit the target. And you can't hit the target if you can't see him, if he moves at Lee's speed.

It's true. Itachi became an ANBU captain at the age of 13.. Around that time, Uchiha police suspected him to be Shisui's murderer. That same day Sasuke first saw Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan.
For timeline references read this thread.
(http://forums.narutofan.com/showthread.php?t=267430)Alright, I agree then, 15 year old Itachi would pwn Naruto.
Not without the MS though.

First of all, how do you know Orochimaru was weak to genjutsu? That's like saying that Kakuzu was weak to ninjutsu because he lost to Naruto's FRS.They're not similar in any way. The FRS destroys cells. No one can survive it, but some people (Deidara, Jiraiya, Sasuke) can easily dispel Itachi's genjutsus.
And Oro is weak to genjutsu, imo. If he can't dispel a simple paralysing genjutsu, he has to be weak to it. Unlike Sakura, Shika, Sasuke, Jiraiya, etc

The fact that Oro, and many other people were defeated with Itachi's basic genjutsu doesn't suggest that they were all weak to it, but rather the power of Itachi's genjutsu itself.Genjutsu is genjutsu. Stop your chakra flow completely and it's dispelled. A 'stronger' genjutsu would still need you to completely stop your chakra flow to dispel it too. They're all the same, imo. Until it gets to the MS genjutsu, I guess. Which apparently is dispelled only by another sharingan user, I think.

Ok, this is debatable. Let's not get too much off topic.Alright. Is there a thread about it?

Ugh, don't tell me you're another one of those who think Itachi fled because he was afraid of Gai.
Regarding the fight, Kakashi also said that Itachi wasn't showing his full power. Not really. I was kidding, hence the ':p'

What does Kakashi know about Itachi's full power? How would Itachi show his full power without the MS? What would he do? Make more clones? What exactly? Was Kakashi fighting at full power too? I find it hard to believe what the manga says at times. A tailed beast is supposed to crush mountains with a single wag of one tail, but the 3 tails was captured SO easily by Deidara, All Shukaku could do was fire some wind blasts, and was beaten by some frog. :S

He isn't chuunin level at taijutsu like you said.

Speed? He matched Sasuke's CS2 speed. He was so fast that Kakashi's sharingan couldn't detect him when he appeared behind him. He speed blitzed three Uchiha police guys in matter of seconds. It was a water clone. What Kakashi couldn't detect was the seal he used to create the clone.

Reaction and dodging speed? Sharingan perception/prediction abilities are a huge advantage when it comes to close combat. Sasuke was able to avoid all Kyuubi Naruto's physical attacks thanks to this.Because Naruto is poor at one-on-one taijutsu? Where was his sharingan against Lee? If he meets Kakashi, would he avoid all attacks too? He can predict when he can see, but Naruto isn't fast enough. And Kakashi can open at least a gate too, I don't see how Itachi would beat that speed gained.

Skills with weapons? The best we have seen in the manga so far. He was able to hit 8 targets that were out of his field of vision with his eyes closed.
Brute strength? Itachi's 30% Shoten(who had only 30% of the full strength) matched Kakashi's.Wrong. He's not better than Ten-Ten with weapons.
30% chakra doesn't mean 30% power. It's stamina. More chakra doesn't help when you have a Raikiri in your chest.
A clone with 30% stamina doesn't mean his attacks would be 30% as strong, it's that he'll last one-third of how he would normally while using the same attacks or something. Kakashi wasn't at full strength either. He didn't use his black hole, or the dog Raikiri, or raiton Kage bunshin. That'd have turned the fight around.

Other taijutsu feats - Itachi caught Sasuke's super-Chidori and redirected it. He blitzed Sasuke to a wall twice and also dodged Chidori in mid-air (don't ask how, but he did.)Super-chidori? The one in the hall where Jiraiya came to the rescue? Sasuke was sloppy, anyone could have done that. He just ran straight and got what he deserved. Blitzing a genin is hardly a wonderful feat. And I didn't see the Chidori he dodged in mid air, but as Fang-chan put in one thread, I'd say it's Plot no jutsu. Unless he used time-space, or had a clone to shift him, like Naruto, I say that's irrelevant and unrealistic.

I'm not saying he is Gai/Lee taijutsu level but he isn't completely outclassed when it comes to ninja categories other than genjutsu.He is. But that's just my opinion. He has no special finisher-style ninjutsu/taijutsu, like the Rasengan, Chidori, 128 palms, Destructive bugs, the gates, or the shadow neck bind. Nothing but basic katons, and water and crow clones iirc.

True, however Sasuke knew of Amaterasu's mechanics and started to move a moment before Itachi focused his eye on him.
This is impossible for anyone who doesn't have knowledge on it.How do you know? He planned to get hit anyway, he said he'd have to get hit by Amaterasu to use the snake bulimia, as you put it, it isn't shown anywhere that he's started moving before the jutsu was done, iirc.

The reason why it is impossible to react to it, or use substitution jutsu to escape, is that it doesn't actually travel from the user, but instantly appears on the target. Its mechanics are much like time/space jutsu because there's no spacial travel.It does. Or Sasuke wouldn't have tried to outrun it, it's just another katon projectile if you ask me. Sasuke was running backwards, away from it, not sideways, iirc, so he should never have left Itachi's line of sight, and Itachi couldn't have focused on the space before Sasuke, or it wouldn't have followed Sasuke, so, it DOES travel from the user.

[Smiley]

That shows that Oro was weak to genjutsu. Shikamaru broke out of something similar, a similar paralysing genjutsu by Tayuya. :S

Um.. You just said Itachi was probably the greatest genjutsu user in the manga. So why are you comparing his genjutsu to Tayuya's?

]You don't outrun something that appears instantly. It takes time to hit the target. And you can't hit the target if you can't see him, if he moves at Lee's speed.

Click here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/), to see that Amaterasu does, in fact appear on the target.

Granted, Madara wasn't expecting the attack. But if it truly travelled from Sasuke to Madara, he would have been able to use his time/space jutsu and avoid being hit in first place.

Now take a look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/) scan.

So apparently Sasuke started running an instant before Itachi opened his eye. Thanks to Sharingan's prediction ability he knew the exact moment it would happen and started moving a second earlier. Hence why Sasuke was able to avoid being initially set on fire. We also know that Itachi was holding back, so he might not have actually planned to fully focus his eye on him in first place.

From that point Amaterasu just chased him at an extremely high speed.

They're not similar in any way. The FRS destroys cells. No one can survive it, but some people (Deidara, Jiraiya, Sasuke) can easily dispel Itachi's genjutsus.

Um, Deidara trained his eyes for years to be able to counter Itachi's genjutsu. That fact alone gives an idea of the power of Itachi's genjutsu.
Sasuke had the Sharingan, and one of its abilities is to see through any genjutsu.

Why did you include Jiraiya, though? As far as I'm concerned he never trained his eyes to counter the Sharingan.


Alright. Is there a thread about it?

I'm not sure, try using the search function.

It was a water clone. What Kakashi couldn't detect was the seal he used to create the clone.

First of all, it was a shadow clone, not a water clone.
Second of all, clones don't simply travel through time and space wherever the user imagines.. They appear right next to the seal performer. Itachi's clone had to get behind Kakashi after it was made, not magically appear there.

Because Naruto is poor at one-on-one taijutsu?

It was a Kyuubi-fied Naruto. He was most likely faster than base Naruto.

Where was his sharingan against Lee?

Sasuke didn't have a three-tomoe Sharingan at that point.


If he meets Kakashi, would he avoid all attacks too? He can predict when he can see, but Naruto isn't fast enough. And Kakashi can open at least a gate too, I don't see how Itachi would beat that speed gained.

We don't know how fast he is with only one gate. If it truly gave him a huge speed bost, he would be using it more often in fights.

But yes, definitely I would say he'd be able to dodge Kakashi's taijutsu attacks. His 30% version already blocked a full-force punch from Kakashi who is taller and heavier than him.


Wrong. He's not better than Ten-Ten with weapons.

Weapons in general, probably. But I sincerely doubt she is skilled with shuriken/kunai more than Itachi.

30% chakra doesn't mean 30% power. It's stamina. More chakra doesn't help when you have a Raikiri in your chest.

It doesn't, however Shoten clones had not only their chakra and stamina limited, but also their strength and jutsu they could use.

Kakashi wasn't at full strength either. He didn't use his black hole, or the dog Raikiri, or raiton Kage bunshin. That'd have turned the fight around.

I was talking about brute strength, since I was listing Itachi's taijutsu feats.


And I didn't see the Chidori he dodged in mid air, but as Fang-chan put in one thread, I'd say it's Plot no jutsu. Unless he used time-space, or had a clone to shift him, like Naruto, I say that's irrelevant and unrealistic.

It's also unrealistic and seemingly impossible to hit targets that our out of your field visions right in the center with your eyes closed but Itachi still did it.
Sorry, but plot no jutsu is not a valid excuse. Kishi didn't have to put Itachi in the situation he couldn't dodge in first place. I mean, how was that necessary for the plot?

It's a feat worth mentioning.

He is. But that's just my opinion. He has no special finisher-style ninjutsu/taijutsu, like the Rasengan, Chidori, 128 palms, Destructive bugs, the gates, or the shadow neck bind. Nothing but basic katons, and water and crow clones iirc.

As long as it's just your opinion, we're fine.
However, like I've said many times it's not about the number of jutsu he had but more about proficiency.
Also, you seem to underestimate Itachi's Katon. CS2 Sasuke who is one of the fastest characters in the manga couldn't dodge it, but had to block it with his wing instead.

And that's not taking his MS in the account. Are you telling me you're not impressed with Amaterasu which destroyed a full-powered Bijuu in matter of seconds, or Susano'o which ripped Orochimaru's strongest technique apart like nothing?

Itachi is far above the average ninjutsu and taijutsu-wise.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Um, Deidara trained his eyes for years to be able to counter Itachi's genjutsu. That fact alone gives an idea of the power of Itachi's genjutsu.

Yes and that was just regualr sharingan genjtusu he trained hhis eye to counter, not MS genjutsu.

Why did you include Jiraiya, though? As far as I'm concerned he never trained his eyes to counter the Sharingan.

lol idk either :D

Itachi is far above the average ninjutsu and taijutsu-wise.

I agree. thats the point ive been trying to get across for a while now :D

[0ba]

Um.. You just said Itachi was probably the greatest genjutsu user in the manga. So why are you comparing his genjutsu to Tayuya's?Because the way to break out of all genjutsus, bar the MS genjutsu, and probably the toad song, is the same, by stopping your chakra flow, or someone injecting their chakra into you. So, tell me, Itachi is the greatest genjutsu user in the manga, so? His sharingan genjutsu can be broken by stopping your chakra, right?
Tayuya's genjutsu can be broken by stopping your chakra flow, right? See the comparison now?

Click here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/397/03/), to see that Amaterasu does, in fact appear on the target.You said it yourself. Madara wasn't expecting Sasuke to suddenly use Amaterasu, right?

Granted, Madara wasn't expecting the attack. But if it truly travelled from Sasuke to Madara, he would have been able to use his time/space jutsu and avoid being hit in first place.Doesn't matter. Look how long it burnt him and spread around his body on the next page. His reflexes are probably dulled due to old age. He could have used the time/space immediately after it hit him, or whatever magic he used to extinguish the flame.

Now take a look at this (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/390/03/) scan.

So apparently Sasuke started running an instant before Itachi opened his eye. Thanks to Sharingan's prediction ability he knew the exact moment it would happen and started moving a second earlier. Hence why Sasuke was able to avoid being initially set on fire. We also know that Itachi was holding back, so he might not have actually planned to fully focus his eye on him in first place.Alright, let's just assume that he started running before he used the amaterasu, and they didn't happen simultaneously, since this is the manga, and we can't tell much about instants or whatever.
Why didn't he use a clone to block it? Why didn't he use the replacement immediately? Why didn't he use a katon to block it so it would burn the katon away? How does the sharingan predict when someone is about to use Amaterasu which requires no seals?

Let's assume he knew it, and started running an instant earlier, it's irrelevant. Because if the Amaterasu goes to where the eye is focused, Sasuke was running away from Itachi, still in his line of sight, Itachi wouldn't be as stupid to focus his eyes at a spot in the air behind Sasuke. And the flame wouldn't follow Sasuke at high speed if it wasn't focused on him, get what I'm saying? He focused ON Sasuke, whose running away didn't help but delay the inevitable when he could have use the speed he copied from Lee to go from side to side. Enough of that holding back sh!t. If he wanted to hold back, he wouldn't have used the Amaterasu in the first place, because he apparently couldn't stop it the way Sasuke could. And he wouldn't have focused it on Sasuke's ass either.

From that point Amaterasu just chased him at an extremely high speed.So, now you're saying that the Amaterasu first appears as time/space away from the eye, then starts moving at high speed?

It moves at an extremely high speed all the way from Itachi's eyes. You can't run away from time/space jutsu. It disappears, and appears where you are in an instant.

Um, Deidara trained his eyes for years to be able to counter Itachi's genjutsu. That fact alone gives an idea of the power of Itachi's genjutsu.Wait. To counter, or dispel? Then they're two different things then. Because to dispel ALL genjutsus, (bar the MS) you need to stop your chakra flow. To counter, I don't know, or care, since it hasn't been elaborated on in the manga, iirc.

Sasuke had the Sharingan, and one of its abilities is to see through any genjutsu.Why you're not meant to believe everything the manga says. Sasuke said he trained his eyes to dispel all genjutsus. And in the fight between Itachi and Kakashi it talks about how you'd need sharingan, and Uchiha blood. Which do we believe?

Why did you include Jiraiya, though? As far as I'm concerned he never trained his eyes to counter the Sharingan.Because Jiraiya was adept at dispelling genjutsu, and he taught Naruto too.

I'm not sure, try using the search function.Couldn't be bothered. One big debate here is enough for me. :p
I like how you at least try to present facts and links and all, unlike one fanboy here. :p

First of all, it was a shadow clone, not a water clone.
Second of all, clones don't simply travel through time and space wherever the user imagines.. They appear right next to the seal performer. Itachi's clone had to get behind Kakashi after it was made, not magically appear there. Maybe they do? Naruto's clones don't always appear beside him, he used some in the fight against Gaara to propel himself, they were under him, above him and around him (where he went on to use the 'deadly' 1000 years of Pain and an explosive tag. And if you check the fight between Kakashi and Itachi here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/11/) it clearly shows how close they were anyway, there was no 'blitzing' as you would put it. :xd:

It was a Kyuubi-fied Naruto. He was most likely faster than base Naruto.Nope. When the cloak came out, he became faster and stronger and was completely pwning Sasuke. Before that, he only drew Kyuubi chakra iirc, that doesn't make him faster. The Neji fight shows that too, iirc.

Sasuke didn't have a three-tomoe Sharingan at that point.It isn't said that the two-tomoe sharingan doesn't predict AT ALL.

We don't know how fast he is with only one gate. If it truly gave him a huge speed bost, he would be using it more often in fights.We know how fast he is without the gates, and the gate multiplies your speed to an extent, so he'll definitely be faster than Itachi's eyes could see.

But yes, definitely I would say he'd be able to dodge Kakashi's taijutsu attacks. His 30% version already blocked a full-force punch from Kakashi who is taller and heavier than him.Where does the manga state their weights? And how does their heights matter? :lol:
30% stamina doesn't mean you're going to be unable to dodge. :S

Weapons in general, probably. But I sincerely doubt she is skilled with shuriken/kunai more than Itachi.No one is more skilled than Ten-Ten with shuriken or kunai or any weapons. Which other weapons does she even use but the stick/pole and the bombs and other little projectiles?

It doesn't, however Shoten clones had not only their chakra and stamina limited, but also their strength and jutsu they could use.Nope. It means they could use the jutsus less. The same was empty Kakashi could still use the black hole that sapped his chakra badly when he used it on Deidara when he was very low on chakra. When you have 30% chakra, you can't use the jutsus as much as you could when you're 100%, not that you can't use them. :S

I was talking about brute strength, since I was listing Itachi's taijutsu feats.Brute strength? He's only shown that when he went all-out on a genin in a hotel corridor where he broke some of his bones. And as I said, 30% chakra doesn't mean you're weaker. So, we haven't seen Itachi use Amaterasu at full strength, only after using the Tsukuyomi and some katons and a long-ass genjutsu where he fought with Sasuke in it. That'd have sapped his chakra to say... 60%. So we haven't seen him use it at 10% chakra then. And then that must mean that the 2nd one was weaker? Because he'd have less chakra to use it after using one already. And the Susano'o was like what Naruto would use after using up most of his chakra? Can we assume that Susano'o was like Gamatatsu? That if Itachi was 100%, he's summon the sun or what?

It's also unrealistic and seemingly impossible to hit targets that our out of your field visions right in the center with your eyes closed but Itachi still did it.How many blind kunai throws have we seen in the manga? :lol:
I won't even go into that. :S
There you go, biging up an irrelevant skill, did he even throw a kunai against Sasuke? I do remember Sasuke wounding him with a shuriken jutsu.

Sorry, but plot no jutsu is not a valid excuse. Kishi didn't have to put Itachi in the situation he couldn't dodge in first place. I mean, how was that necessary for the plot?Funny.
A chidori in mid-air would kill him. And NOT remove the CS, and NOT transfer the MS.

It's a feat worth mentioning.One that can't be explained. The same way it was Plot no jutsu that Konohamaru was able to create a rasengan before the time-skip. :S
And before the time-skip he's already a genin, as shown by the headband instead of the goggles.

As long as it's just your opinion, we're fine.
However, like I've said many times it's not about the number of jutsu he had but more about proficiency.And I've said that without the MS, he doesn't have very proficient jutsu. I never said he isn't a great ninja, without the MS, he isn't, unlike Sasuke.

Also, you seem to underestimate Itachi's Katon. CS2 Sasuke who is one of the fastest characters in the manga couldn't dodge it, but had to block it with his wing instead.When was that? I remember him using the wing for the Amaterasu only. I'm sure Itachi's katon's have been dodged many times, and Sasuke's Katon overpowered his. He and Sasuke use pretty much the same katon attacks, yet we've seen them dodges before.

And that's not taking his MS in the account. Are you telling me you're not impressed with Amaterasu which destroyed a full-powered Bijuu in matter of seconds, or Susano'o which ripped Orochimaru's strongest technique apart like nothing?Never said I wasn't. What I'm not impressed with is him without the MS. And I don't see those snake thingies as his most powerful tech.

Itachi is far above the average ninjutsu and taijutsu-wise.I think not. But again, that's just my opinion.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Because the way to break out of all genjutsus, bar the MS genjutsu, and probably the toad song, is the same, by stopping your chakra flow, or someone injecting their chakra into you. So, tell me, Itachi is the greatest genjutsu user in the manga, so? His sharingan genjutsu can be broken by stopping your chakra, right?
Tayuya's genjutsu can be broken by stopping your chakra flow, right? See the comparison now?

Pein first has to know hes in gnejutsu. Thats a major obstacle. If they are all in genjtsu he may not know. That being said Itachi's genjtsu are not as easy to break. Naruto alone wasnt able to do it even though he trained for it with Jiriya. It took, Naruto, sakura, AND Chiyo to break it. Besides his shraingan genjtsu is even more powerful and harder to break and finally Tsukiyomi cant be broken.

Alright, let's just assume that he started running before he used the amaterasu, and they didn't happen simultaneously, since this is the manga, and we can't tell much about instants or whatever.
Why didn't he use a clone to block it? Why didn't he use the replacement immediately? Why didn't he use a katon to block it so it would burn the katon away? How does the sharingan predict when someone is about to use Amaterasu which requires no seals?

Actaully if I remeber correctly it does require hand seals. Ill double check but the time Itachi tried to use it the first time, I think i remeber his hands in the sign of a handseal but ill double check that fact.


Let's assume he knew it, and started running an instant earlier, it's irrelevant. Because if the Amaterasu goes to where the eye is focused, Sasuke was running away from Itachi, still in his line of sight, Itachi wouldn't be as stupid to focus his eyes at a spot in the air behind Sasuke. And the flame wouldn't follow Sasuke at high speed if it wasn't focused on him, get what I'm saying? He focused ON Sasuke, whose running away didn't help but delay the inevitable when he could have use the speed he copied from Lee to go from side to side. Enough of that holding back sh!t. If he wanted to hold back, he wouldn't have used the Amaterasu in the first place, because he apparently couldn't stop it the way Sasuke could. And he wouldn't have focused it on Sasuke's ass either.

Actaully Itahci can stop amateratsu like Itachi did. Zetsu said that himself. He used it to make sasuke believe Itachi really wanted to kill him.


So, now you're saying that the Amaterasu first appears as time/space away from the eye, then starts moving at high speed?

Does it matter where it origninates? Its too fast to out run so it will hit anyone. BUt i dont believe it to come directly from the eye either.

Why you're not meant to believe everything the manga says. Sasuke said he trained his eyes to dispel all genjutsus. And in the fight between Itachi and Kakashi it talks about how you'd need sharingan, and Uchiha blood. Which do we believe?

IDK what your trying to say. You need shraingan blood and the shraingan to break tsukiyomi. If you were refering to Deidara in the bolded sasuke above then that was deidara saying he trained his eye to counter regular sharigan genjtsu, not tsukiyomi.

Couldn't be bothered. One big debate here is enough for me. :p
I like how you at least try to present facts and links and all, unlike one fanboy here. :p

hey you want links I can get em. But alot of my points rely on LOGIC which is the center of all the problems. People stick to exactly what is said and shown in manga. They need to think OUTSIDE THE BOX. For instance, becasue we only saw one genjtsu from Jiriay we are to beleive that the only gentjsu he can do?? Surely not if hes a sanin. Thats the kind of stuff peopel are having a hard time with.:D

Maybe they do? Naruto's clones don't always appear beside him, he used some in the fight against Gaara to propel himself, they were under him, above him and around him (where he went on to use the 'deadly' 1000 years of Pain and an explosive tag. And if you check the fight between Kakashi and Itachi here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/11/) it clearly shows how close they were anyway, there was no 'blitzing' as you would put it. :xd:

Care to explain how mass shadow clone jutsu works then? The far ones arent anywhere near Naruto when summoned.

Nope. When the cloak came out, he became faster and stronger and was completely pwning Sasuke. Before that, he only drew Kyuubi chakra iirc, that doesn't make him faster. The Neji fight shows that too, iirc.

I thknk i see what your saying and I agree

It isn't said that the two-tomoe sharingan doesn't predict AT ALL.

2 tomoe predicts but not as well as 3.

We know how fast he is without the gates, and the gate multiplies your speed to an extent, so he'll definitely be faster than Itachi's eyes could see.

Sharingan can track extremely high speed. Look at naruto vs sasuke. Once sasuke had 2 tomoe, he said that he could follow naruto kyubi form travleing faster than reg eyes can see.

Where does the manga state their weights? And how does their heights matter? :lol:
30% stamina doesn't mean you're going to be unable to dodge. :S

Ya but it means your not at you regualr ability level. He would already be tired. Get yourslef to 30% energy level and try fighting someone.

How many blind kunai throws have we seen in the manga? :lol:
I won't even go into that. :S
There you go, biging up an irrelevant skill, did he even throw a kunai against Sasuke? I do remember Sasuke wounding him with a shuriken jutsu.

Yes he did. He blocked all the kunai thrown at him with kunai and shuriken

And I've said that without the MS, he doesn't have very proficient jutsu. I never said he isn't a great ninja, without the MS, he isn't, unlike Sasuke.

Its hard to be a great ninja without being good at jutsu. Hes not like lee with taijutsu imo. He was an ANBU Captain at 13 without MS. He MUST have had other jutsu and used tai and ninjutsu more than we have seen him do. Thats what i meant earlier about using LOGIC in my arguments.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Pein first has to know hes in gnejutsu. Thats a major obstacle. If they are all in genjtsu he may not know. That being said Itachi's genjtsu are not as easy to break. Naruto alone wasnt able to do it even though he trained for it with Jiriya. It took, Naruto, sakura, AND Chiyo to break it. Besides his shraingan genjtsu is even more powerful and harder to break and finally Tsukiyomi cant be broken.
Firstly Naruto just plain sucks at breaking genjutsu so that is hardly a good example. Naruto always has been and probably for a while will be vunerable to Genjutsu.
Secondly if I remember correctly Sasuke used tsukyomi on Killerbee and he broke out of it using the 8tails. Correct?

Actaully Itahci can stop amateratsu like Itachi did. Zetsu said that himself. He used it to make sasuke believe Itachi really wanted to kill him.
No Sasuke is the only one to stop Ameratsu.
itachi didn't stop his like Sasuke did it was still there. (Although this can be argued either way since the pictures can be seen differently.)
Does it matter where it origninates? Its too fast to out run so it will hit anyone. BUt i dont believe it to come directly from the eye either.But Sasuke outran Ameratsu so you cannot say that it cannot be outrun.
IDK what your trying to say. You need shraingan blood and the shraingan to break tsukiyomi. If you were refering to Deidara in the bolded sasuke above then that was deidara saying he trained his eye to counter regular sharigan genjtsu, not tsukiyomi.
true about Deidara but again it seems that killerbee was able to beat Tsukyomi.

hey you want links I can get em. But alot of my points rely on LOGIC which is the center of all the problems. People stick to exactly what is said and shown in manga. They need to think OUTSIDE THE BOX. For instance, becasue we only saw one genjtsu from Jiriay we are to beleive that the only gentjsu he can do?? Surely not if hes a sanin. Thats the kind of stuff peopel are having a hard time with.:D
he problem is that you cannot (in a manner of speaking) bring things into the box as evidence. Yeah Jiraiya may have known more the one Genjutsu technique. However we don't know that. He may have but we can't prove that. and even if he did we have no idea what they were like, for all we know they could have made people think everything was made of candy but it cannot be proved. Only the box can be used as evidence and anything outside the box is useless cos it can't be proved to be true.

Care to explain how mass shadow clone jutsu works then? The far ones arent anywhere near Naruto when summoned.
Simple the clones can originate from the original or from a clone. The ones further away simply emerge from next to anouther clone.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Firstly Naruto just plain sucks at breaking genjutsu so that is hardly a good example. Naruto always has been and probably for a while will be vunerable to Genjutsu.

Naruto is able to break out of normal genjtsu though. That is why he was so frustrated and confused when he couldnt break Itachi's. Also my main ppoint was that it took sakura who is great at genjtsu AND chiyo with naruto's effort to break the genjtsu. Thats what i was getting at, that it took 3 people to do it.

Secondly if I remember correctly Sasuke used tsukyomi on Killerbee and he broke out of it using the 8tails. Correct?

Yes but as stated in the manga the nine jinjurikins (spl??) are the only exceptions. It has to do with the 2 beings being in one body.


No Sasuke is the only one to stop Ameratsu.
itachi didn't stop his like Sasuke did it was still there. (Although this can be argued either way since the pictures can be seen differently.)
But Sasuke outran Ameratsu so you cannot say that it cannot be outrun.

I can get the page if you dont remeber but Zetsu specifically stated Itachi STOPPED AMATERATSU to save sasukes eyes so Itachi can stop it. I had a HUGE debate about this fact a few months back.

true about Deidara but again it seems that killerbee was able to beat Tsukyomi.

As well as the nine other jinjurikins (spl??). I dont deny this fact but in the whole shinobi world, 9 people tops can stop it, and only a master of their tailed beast can do so.

he problem is that you cannot (in a manner of speaking) bring things into the box as evidence. Yeah Jiraiya may have known more the one Genjutsu technique. However we don't know that. He may have but we can't prove that. and even if he did we have no idea what they were like, for all we know they could have made people think everything was made of candy but it cannot be proved. Only the box can be used as evidence and anything outside the box is useless cos it can't be proved to be true.

Yes I understand completely what you are saying. However I am not trying to imply about specific jutsu or abilities. I am merely trying to emphasis the fact that he is better witouth MS than people think. HEnce why he was captain at anbu at 12. I dont mean to imply to know specific abilities or jutsu he had that he didnt show, just that he has them and is not limited to genjtusu and MS.

Simple the clones can originate from the original or from a clone. The ones further away simply emerge from next to anouther clone.

This is debatable. Mass shadow clone the way I see it has all clones comming from the original.

[0ba]

Pein first has to know hes in gnejutsu. Thats a major obstacle. If they are all in genjtsu he may not know. That being said Itachi's genjtsu are not as easy to break. Naruto alone wasnt able to do it even though he trained for it with Jiriya. It took, Naruto, sakura, AND Chiyo to break it. Besides his shraingan genjtsu is even more powerful and harder to break and finally Tsukiyomi cant be broken.How are Itachi's genjutsus broken then? Pein would know he's in genjutsu. Unless Itachi genjutsus all 6. And as Fang-chan said in one post, since Pein is controlled from afar, he could easily switch the bodies off or stop transmitting to the genjutsu'd body, which would stop it's chakra flow, then turn it back on, dispelling the genjutsu.

Actaully if I remeber correctly it does require hand seals. Ill double check but the time Itachi tried to use it the first time, I think i remeber his hands in the sign of a handseal but ill double check that fact.Enjoy your search.

Actaully Itahci can stop amateratsu like Itachi did. Zetsu said that himself. He used it to make sasuke believe Itachi really wanted to kill him.What does Zetsu know? Did Itachi want his eyes? Can Zetsu read minds? In that same statement, he showed that his opinions shouldn't be taken with a pinch of salt. How many times did he say Sasuke had the upper hand? Did you believe him? I believe what is drawn, not what some idiot plant says.

Does it matter where it origninates? Its too fast to out run so it will hit anyone. BUt i dont believe it to come directly from the eye either.It does. It doesn't appear magically. It's even said that it converges on the target. It isn't some time/space ninjutsu. But what I say won't matter to you anyways. When facts are presented to you like I did above, you don't believe it comes directly, even when shown clear evidence in the manga.

IDK what your trying to say. You need shraingan blood and the shraingan to break tsukiyomi. If you were refering to Deidara in the bolded sasuke above then that was deidara saying he trained his eye to counter regular sharigan genjtsu, not tsukiyomi.But it can be broken if someone inserts chakra into you and disrupts your flow, right? Why can't it be broken by stopping your chakra then? Isn't it genjutsu? Deidara trained himself to COUNTER genjutsu or did he train to DISPEL?
Sharingan genjutsu is dispelled the same way as ordinary genjutsu. Stopping chakra.

hey you want links I can get em. But alot of my points rely on LOGIC which is the center of all the problems. People stick to exactly what is said and shown in manga. They need to think OUTSIDE THE BOX. For instance, becasue we only saw one genjtsu from Jiriay we are to beleive that the only gentjsu he can do?? Surely not if hes a sanin. Thats the kind of stuff peopel are having a hard time with.:DKeep your links to yourself. I like facts too. Outside which box? He's dead. We NEVER saw Jiraiya use genjutsu. It was his frogs. Should we then assume that Gamaken could sing too? Maybe you're just not being reasonable. Tsunade's a sannin too, and she hasn't even been shown to be knowledgeable about genjutsu. And another sannin, Oro, was easily beaten by sharingan genjutsu.

Care to explain how mass shadow clone jutsu works then? The far ones arent anywhere near Naruto when summoned.Your point? Read the post you quoted.

2 tomoe predicts but not as well as 3.It wasn't shown to predict AT ALL.

Sharingan can track extremely high speed. Look at naruto vs sasuke. Once sasuke had 2 tomoe, he said that he could follow naruto kyubi form travleing faster than reg eyes can see.WHAT? Faster than regular eyes? What would you call Lee v Gaara then? Where was it said that it was faster than regular eyes? I believe what I SEE. In the Lee v Gaara fight, we COULDN'T see Lee. Same with Gai v Kisame, only Kisame being bounced around by Gai with the Morning Peacock tech.

Ya but it means your not at you regualr ability level. He would already be tired. Get yourslef to 30% energy level and try fighting someone.Read the post. I'm not even arguing about that. You understand or you don't. I'm not explaining it again. The 30% clone would feel 100% when it comes into battle. They didn't make a clone of 30% chakra Itachi. It was a clone of Itachi, fully fit, that had 30% the chakra of the original. If you don't understand that, I don't know what to say anymore.

Yes he did. He blocked all the kunai thrown at him with kunai and shurikenAnd who wounded who? That's right, Sasuke showed how good he is with weapons, and used a Shuriken clone to wound Itachi. Who would you say is better with weapons judging from that fight?

Its hard to be a great ninja without being good at jutsu. Hes not like lee with taijutsu imo. He was an ANBU Captain at 13 without MS. He MUST have had other jutsu and used tai and ninjutsu more than we have seen him do. Thats what i meant earlier about using LOGIC in my arguments.NOT the ANBU at 13 and jounin a 7 sh!t again.
Bullsh!t. If he did, he'd have used them. We've seen him fight against Kakashi, Sasuke, Naruto & Kakashi, and he didn't use them. Should we assume Sakura can use the rasengan as well? Maybe she hasn't had a chance to use it?

Make everyone on this forum happy. Stop 'thinking outside the box'. Please.

[Smiley]

Because the way to break out of all genjutsus, bar the MS genjutsu, and probably the toad song, is the same, by stopping your chakra flow, or someone injecting their chakra into you. So, tell me, Itachi is the greatest genjutsu user in the manga, so? His sharingan genjutsu can be broken by stopping your chakra, right?
Tayuya's genjutsu can be broken by stopping your chakra flow, right? See the comparison now?


So tell me then why is that there is not even one case in the manga of Itachi's non-Mangekyou genjutsu being dispelled by a non-Sharingan user? Not even one. Even Kakashi himself said "Only another Sharingan user could probably deal with this", prior to Itachi casting genjutsu on him. Keep in mind that Kakashi didn't have knowledge on Tsukoyomi at that point. It's not just Itachi, Sharingan genjutsu in general have never been dispelled without a comrade(with the exception of Deidara who had to train his eyes for years).

Oro wasn't weak to genjutsu. He was even about to try to reverse his own flow, when Itachi had cut off his hand.

You said it yourself. Madara wasn't expecting Sasuke to suddenly use Amaterasu, right?Doesn't matter. Look how long it burnt him and spread around his body on the next page. His reflexes are probably dulled due to old age. He could have used the time/space immediately after it hit him, or whatever magic he used to extinguish the flame.


If you look at that scan, Amaterasu appeared on Madara's shoulder. Judging from his expression, he was clearly surprised.
There is also the example with Sasuke's Katon (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/16-17/).

It's doujutsu ninjutsu, like Kakashi's Kamui. The wormhole doesn't travel from Kakashi but rather appears on whatever he focuses his eye on. If it were possible to avoid it with a genin-level substitution it wouldn't have been said to be impossible to avoid.

Alright, let's just assume that he started running before he used the amaterasu, and they didn't happen simultaneously, since this is the manga, and we can't tell much about instants or whatever.
Why didn't he use a clone to block it? Why didn't he use the replacement immediately? Why didn't he use a katon to block it so it would burn the katon away?

Using a clone would have reduced his stamina and chakra to 50%. I'm not even sure if Sasuke knew any clone techniques. Basic kawarimi wouldn't work, because Sharingan would immediately see through it. If you're referring to Orochimaru's snake bulimia, it would have been a waste of chakra, since his body wasn't damaged until Amaterasu had hit him. Trying to overpower Amaterasu with a basic Katon would have resulted in Sasuke getting killed.


How does the sharingan predict when someone is about to use Amaterasu which requires no seals?

No, he didn't predict Amaterasu, but the exact moment Itachi would open his eye. Not to mention that Sharingan can see chakra, so he also may have seen chakra concentration and gathering, which is what the MS does, it creates the flames where the eyes have focused and gathered chakra.

So, now you're saying that the Amaterasu first appears as time/space away from the eye, then starts moving at high speed?
It moves at an extremely high speed all the way from Itachi's eyes. You can't run away from time/space jutsu. It disappears, and appears where you are in an instant.

Yes, I know. This is what I'm not completely sure about. But.. It's either 1) Sasuke moved so fast that Itachi couldn't catch him in his line of sight 2) Itachi wasn't trying to focus on him, hence it would have resulted in Sasuke getting killed 3) If the flames miss the target they continue to chase it at high speed. The option 3 seems the most likely to be true, but the flames still travel faster than the speed demon CS2 Sasuke.

to side. Enough of that holding back sh!t. If he wanted to hold back, he wouldn't have used the Amaterasu in the first place, because he apparently couldn't stop it the way Sasuke could. And he wouldn't have focused it on Sasuke's ass either.

Yes, he could. In fact, he stopped and suppressed the flames in that same fight. Even Madara confirmed that he was holding back when using Amaterasu. When he had revealed the truth to Sasuke, he told him that he played his part exactly as Itachi planned, while showing flashbacks of Itachi using Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu on Sasuke.


Why you're not meant to believe everything the manga says. Sasuke said he trained his eyes to dispel all genjutsus. And in the fight between Itachi and Kakashi it talks about how you'd need sharingan, and Uchiha blood. Which do we believe?

Even though I don't remember Sasuke saying that he trained his eyes to counter genjutsu, there is no contradiction there. Itachi said that only another Uchiha had the potential to break Tsukoyomi, which is exactly what happened.

Because Jiraiya was adept at dispelling genjutsu, and he taught Naruto too.

He taught Naruto a basic method that every jounin of Konoha knows. As we have seen during Orochimaru's invasion, even Gai knows it. His method has already been proven to not work against Itachi's genjutsu several times. You have to train your eyes like Deidara did to break Sharingan genjutsu. Jiraiya never did.


And if you check the fight between Kakashi and Itachi here (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/142/11/) it clearly shows how close they were anyway, there was no 'blitzing' as you would put it. :xd:

Regardless what the distance was, Kakashi wasn't able to react and he also had a surprised expression on his face. Itachi did a Kage Bunshin seal, possibly a Shunshin seal, and ran/used Shunshin to get behind Kakashi; all an in instant before the eyes of the Sharingan user, without them being able to react of even follow his movements.
He is also tier 5 speed in the DB3, which is even above Sasuke, on par with Gai.

Nope. When the cloak came out, he became faster and stronger and was completely pwning Sasuke. Before that, he only drew Kyuubi chakra iirc, that doesn't make him faster. The Neji fight shows that too, iirc.

However, we know that drawing even a small portion of Kyuubi chakra gives him power and speed bost hence he was able to destroy Haku's mirror technique; something he couldn't in his base form due to Haku moving too fast for him.

It isn't said that the two-tomoe sharingan doesn't predict AT ALL.

Sasuke seemed pretty amazed with his new ability to predict movements in valley of the end, though.

Where does the manga state their weights?
In the databook.
(http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=18529785&postcount=2)

Nope. It means they could use the jutsus less. The same was empty Kakashi could still use the black hole that sapped his chakra badly when he used it on Deidara when he was very low on chakra. When you have 30% chakra, you can't use the jutsus as much as you could when you're 100%, not that you can't use them. :S

However, Shotens were not only stated to have limited chakra and stamina, but also strength and the techniques they could use.

How many blind kunai throws have we seen in the manga? :lol:
I won't even go into that. :
There you go, biging up an irrelevant skill, did he even throw a kunai against Sasuke? I do remember Sasuke wounding him with a shuriken jutsu.

Irrelevant skill? Are you serious? We never saw anyone in this manga throwing weapons at such precision and skill level.
Name one blind kunai throw that doesn't include Itachi in it.

One that can't be explained. The same way it was Plot no jutsu that Konohamaru was able to create a rasengan before the time-skip. :S
And before the time-skip he's already a genin, as shown by the headband instead of the goggles.


Plot no jutsu is something someone didn't want to happen for their own arbitrary personal reasons, like having a boner for a certain character. The characters still did it because the writer decided to give them the ability. Especially since in this case, it wasn't anyhow necessary for the plot for Sasuke to corner Itachi.
The only real PNJ was Sasuke escaping from Deidara's CO.

When was that? I remember him using the wing for the Amaterasu only. I'm sure Itachi's katon's have been dodged many times, and Sasuke's Katon overpowered his. He and Sasuke use pretty much the same katon attacks, yet we've seen them dodges before.


Here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/12/)

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Naruto is able to break out of normal genjtsu though.
Can you give examples of this?
That is why he was so frustrated and confused when he couldnt break Itachi's. Also my main ppoint was that it took sakura who is great at genjtsu AND chiyo with naruto's effort to break the genjtsu. Thats what i was getting at, that it took 3 people to do it.
I thought it only took Sakura and all she did was touch his shoulder and give him a squirt of Chakra to break the genjutsu. It was basically the same thing she did to wake Naruto up in the Chuunin exams when he was beaten by Kabutos genjutsu.
Yes but as stated in the manga the nine jinjurikins (spl??) are the only exceptions. It has to do with the 2 beings being in one body.
So then Tsukyomi is beatable simply by adding a second chakra source. this means that Tsukyomi can be beaten like any other Genjutsu and is not unbeatable as was claimed
I can get the page if you dont remeber but Zetsu specifically stated Itachi STOPPED AMATERATSU to save sasukes eyes so Itachi can stop it. I had a HUGE debate about this fact a few months back.
I know. I was probably one of the ones arguing against you because this is such an ambiguous saying and pics that we could argue it both ways.:xd:
As well as the nine other jinjurikins (spl??). I dont deny this fact but in the whole shinobi world, 9 people tops can stop it, and only a master of their tailed beast can do so.
Not necessarily. it is a second chakra source. this means it could potentially be done by anyone as long as they have that second chakra source.
9pein could since he is already putting his chakra into anouther body most likely with it's own chakra so Pein would be Immune to Tsukyomi as well.
Yes I understand completely what you are saying. However I am not trying to imply about specific jutsu or abilities. I am merely trying to emphasis the fact that he is better witouth MS than people think. HEnce why he was captain at anbu at 12. I dont mean to imply to know specific abilities or jutsu he had that he didnt show, just that he has them and is not limited to genjtusu and MS.
But why couldn't he be limited to Genjutsu?
ANBU are so.......unusual since we know so little about them. We don't know the requirements for ANBU or exactly how the operate on missions and even organisational structure. So you could say it is possible that Itachi had more then just Genjutsu but just because he was an ANBU captain doesn't prove he did have more then Genjutsu. (I mean Kurenai is a high level Jounin with only Genjutsu)
(Note:This is not to say that Itachi had no Ninjutsu or Taijutsu but that there is no evidence for it being better then any other shinobis)
This is debatable. Mass shadow clone the way I see it has all clones comming from the original.
Some do. But then there is always the possibility that the clones are making clones as well.

[0ba]

So tell me then why is that there is not even one case in the manga of Itachi's non-Mangekyou genjutsu being dispelled by a non-Sharingan user? Not even one. Even Kakashi himself said "Only another Sharingan user could probably deal with this", prior to Itachi casting genjutsu on him. Keep in mind that Kakashi didn't have knowledge on Tsukoyomi at that point. It's not just Itachi, Sharingan genjutsu in general have never been dispelled without a comrade(with the exception of Deidara who had to train his eyes for years).Didn't Deidara train his eyes to COUNTER genjutsu? I'm tired of saying this.

How many people did Itachi use his sharingan genjutsu on that didn't dispel it?

If the genjutsu can be stopped by disrupting your chakra flow from outside, then it can be dispelled by stopping your chakra flow. Simple as.

And you should know by now that I don't care what the characters SAY, I believe what I SEE. A non-sharingan user v sharingan user can't win if it's one-on-one, yet the first pwnd Madara. Don't blindly believe what the manga tells you.

Oro wasn't weak to genjutsu. He was even about to try to reverse his own flow, when Itachi had cut off his hand.About to try? Maybe that's why he didn't dispel it then?

Link please? I don't remember seeing anything like that anyway. I didn't see the whole Itachi v Oro fight, maybe it's because I didn't start the manga from the beginning, I started from where they stopped around episode 50 of shippudden.

If you look at that scan, Amaterasu appeared on Madara's shoulder. Judging from his expression, he was clearly surprised.
There is also the example with Sasuke's Katon (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/16-17/).Aren't you proving my point? His reflexes are dulled. Simple. Or he'd have used the time/space immediately he was hit, not let it spread around. :S

It's doujutsu ninjutsu, like Kakashi's Kamui. The wormhole doesn't travel from Kakashi but rather appears on whatever he focuses his eye on. If it were possible to avoid it with a genin-level substitution it wouldn't have been said to be impossible to avoid.Don't compare Kamui and Amaterasu. They're completely different. And the Kamui can be moved while it's open, as shown in the Deidara fight. The Amaterasu can't.

Using a clone would have reduced his stamina and chakra to 50%. I'm not even sure if Sasuke knew any clone techniques. Basic kawarimi wouldn't work, because Sharingan would immediately see through it. If you're referring to Orochimaru's snake bulimia, it would have been a waste of chakra, since his body wasn't damaged until Amaterasu had hit him. Trying to overpower Amaterasu with a basic Katon would have resulted in Sasuke getting killed.Exactly, so he'd use the snake bulimia after the amaterasu hits him. It's simple enough.

I didn't suggest overpowering the Amaterasu. What happened to the first Amaterasu? It got blocked by the katon, and burnt it away. What if Sasuke uses another katon? It'd block the Amaterasu and get burnt away, like the first Katon.

No, he didn't predict Amaterasu, but the exact moment Itachi would open his eye. Not to mention that Sharingan can see chakra, so he also may have seen chakra concentration and gathering, which is what the MS does, it creates the flames where the eyes have focused and gathered chakra.So he runs everytime Itachi blinks now? :xd:
Assumption. Do you know for sure that the chakra concentrates in the eye when one wants to use Amaterasu? Keep assuming. First Amaterasu follows, and now, chakra concentrates in the eye? Where do you get these from?

Yes, I know. This is what I'm not completely sure about. But.. It's either 1) Sasuke moved so fast that Itachi couldn't catch him in his line of sight 2) Itachi wasn't trying to focus on him, hence it would have resulted in Sasuke getting killed 3) If the flames miss the target they continue to chase it at high speed. The option 3 seems the most likely to be true, but the flames still travel faster than the speed demon CS2 Sasuke.1) That's why they appeared behind him and followed him in a straight line? What are you unsure about? You first say it's time/space, then you say it instantly appears and follows the target. It's no heat seeking missile. If he wasn't in his line of sight, he'd MISS.
2) Sasuke knew he was going to get hit either way. Amaterasu CAN'T kill Sasuke. He'll shed his skin. And if he didn't focus on him, he wouldn't hit him, he'd MISS.
3) That's not possible. He wasn't shown to guide it with chakra. From what we've seen, it follows you. It didn't miss and follow. If Sasuke was out of the line of sight, it'd burn the ground that it was focused on, not appear in mid-air and follow. You don't have to be so stubborn. Admit you're wrong about it. You don't have to start assuming that it follows, or it wasn't focused on him.


Yes, he could. In fact, he stopped and suppressed the flames in that same fight. Even Madara confirmed that he was holding back when using Amaterasu. When he had revealed the truth to Sasuke, he told him that he played his part exactly as Itachi planned, while showing flashbacks of Itachi using Tsukoyomi and Amaterasu on Sasuke.Yeah right. The 'holding back' card is being played again. Exactly. Sasuke played his part right. Dispelling Tsukuyomi, and shedding his body for the Amaterasu, right? What did Itachi have to do with Sasuke evading his two MS techs? NOTHING. There was nothing he could have done with those 2 techs that Sasuke wasn't above. Don't credit Sasuke's brilliance to Itachi.

Even though I don't remember Sasuke saying that he trained his eyes to counter genjutsu, there is no contradiction there. Itachi said that only another Uchiha had the potential to break Tsukoyomi, which is exactly what happened.Alright. Why did he train his eyes if he he only needed Uchiha blood?

He taught Naruto a basic method that every jounin of Konoha knows. As we have seen during Orochimaru's invasion, even Gai knows it. His method has already been proven to not work against Itachi's genjutsu several times. You have to train your eyes like Deidara did to break Sharingan genjutsu. Jiraiya never did. Deidara trained his eyes to COUNTER genjutsu. NOT dispel. So, you're saying SHARINGAN genjutsu can't be dispelled by stopping or disrupting chakra? How come Sakura freed Naruto then? Does he have Uchiha blood? Or is the law now 'Uchiha blood and external source?' Naruto is NOT good with genjutsu.

Regardless what the distance was, Kakashi wasn't able to react and he also had a surprised expression on his face. Itachi did a Kage Bunshin seal, possibly a Shunshin seal, and ran/used Shunshin to get behind Kakashi; all an in instant before the eyes of the Sharingan user, without them being able to react of even follow his movements.We haven't seen shunshin seals being used before, have we?
Doesn't that mean the clone appeared behind him? As I said before, clones don't always appear directly beside the original. Watch Naruto v Gaara, where Naruto used his clones to propel himself before using the sennen goroshi on him.
We didn't even see smoke, wasn't it a kage bunshin? He appeared and shunshin'd away in an instant without the clone even being seen? No smoke? No way.

He is also tier 5 speed in the DB3, which is even above Sasuke, on par with Gai.Fuck that. So is Kiba. I remember that being used in the Jiraiya and Itachi argument, let's not go into that. Databook is NOT manga.
Anyway, can you post a link to it? (I just want to see it for the lulz. I remember some 'discrepancies' in it the first time I saw it, the Kiba one stuck out though.)

However, we know that drawing even a small portion of Kyuubi chakra gives him power and speed bost hence he was able to destroy Haku's mirror technique; something he couldn't in his base form due to Haku moving too fast for him.Alright. Kyuubi chakra gives him a small speed and power boost.

Sasuke seemed pretty amazed with his new ability to predict movements in valley of the end, though.So, two-tomoe sharingan can't predict?


In the databook.
(http://forums.narutofan.com/showpost.php?p=18529785&postcount=2)Chouji is heavier than both. I know who'd pwn who. :xd:

However, Shotens were not only stated to have limited chakra and stamina, but also strength and the techniques they could use.All I remember is 30% chakra. Which is 30% stamina.

Irrelevant skill? Are you serious? We never saw anyone in this manga throwing weapons at such precision and skill level.
Name one blind kunai throw that doesn't include Itachi in it.No. I'm not mentioning a blind kunai throw. I don't give a damn. It's worthless. And it hasn't been used in battle. How many times have you seen Itachi throw blind kunais in battle? When he and Sasuke fought, who wounded who? Who was more proficient in the use of weapons? Have weapons been used to win a fight? Errrr... nope. Unless you count Ten-Ten v Ten-Ten. :xd:

Plot no jutsu is something someone didn't want to happen for their own arbitrary personal reasons, like having a boner for a certain character. The characters still did it because the writer decided to give them the ability. Especially since in this case, it wasn't anyhow necessary for the plot for Sasuke to corner Itachi.
The only real PNJ was Sasuke escaping from Deidara's CO.Was it necessary for Konohamaru to even be anywhere near Pein? Was it necessary for Sasuke NOT to finish Deidara off with a nice Kirin before he used the CO?

Or should we now say one of Itachi's skills is defying of gravity? Or airborne dodging or blitzing or something? Explain what you make of it. Why exactly he was able to dodge a chidori in mid-air. Explain, or agree that it's plot no jutsu. It's as easy as that.


Here. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/389/12/)Wasn't he jumping upwards to use a chidori on Itachi? You can't dodge in mid-air. :S
Unless you have Itachi's gravity-defying coolness. :xd:

[MinatoNamikaze]

Can you give examples of this?

He was trained by Jiriya. It is alo implied by him being confused about why he couldnt break out of it.

I thought it only took Sakura and all she did was touch his shoulder and give him a squirt of Chakra to break the genjutsu. It was basically the same thing she did to wake Naruto up in the Chuunin exams when he was beaten by Kabutos genjutsu.

Im pretty sure it took both of them. Ill double check though.

So then Tsukyomi is beatable simply by adding a second chakra source. this means that Tsukyomi can be beaten like any other Genjutsu and is not unbeatable as was claimed

Ill have to reread the chapter where the 8 tails broke it but it is unbeatable except for uchiha and the 9 tailed beast jinjurikins. Thats a fact :D

I know. I was probably one of the ones arguing against you because this is such an ambiguous saying and pics that we could argue it both ways.:xd:

lol ya. I try not to debate about things that can be interpereted two different ways cause either one could be correct. Everyones mind will work differently hence we have opposing interpreations on the same thing. But I do understand where your coming from ont his one though.:D

Not necessarily. it is a second chakra source. this means it could potentially be done by anyone as long as they have that second chakra source.
9pein could since he is already putting his chakra into anouther body most likely with it's own chakra so Pein would be Immune to Tsukyomi as well.

As I said above its still unbeatable except for 1 exception now (Naruto). Pein cannont becasue he was trapped by Jiriyas genjutsu and couldnt break out.

But why couldn't he be limited to Genjutsu?
ANBU are so.......unusual since we know so little about them. We don't know the requirements for ANBU or exactly how the operate on missions and even organisational structure. So you could say it is possible that Itachi had more then just Genjutsu but just because he was an ANBU captain doesn't prove he did have more then Genjutsu. (I mean Kurenai is a high level Jounin with only Genjutsu)
(Note:This is not to say that Itachi had no Ninjutsu or Taijutsu but that there is no evidence for it being better then any other shinobis)

For the simple fact that genjutsu can be broken out of quite easily by someone of S-class rankings. Its ineffective and to be a captian, you have to be able to fight. Also, the sharingan is useless if not used to hand to hand combat or ninjutsu countering. Sure it can penetrate genjutsu, but whats the point if there the one performing the jutsu. Besides you wont see many assasinations with genjutsu. Another point I wanted to bring up was the fact that Itachi has the fastest hand seals in the world. If he couldnt do ninjutsu well whats the point in having that? The final point I wanted to bring up was the fac that Itachi was part of the massacre. You cant take out half a clan with genjutsu and not have any skills in tai and ninjutsu. Its foolish to think that genjtsu was all he used in the battle. IF thats all he could use, he wouldnt have been ordered to do the massacre singlehandedly.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

He was trained by Jiriya. It is alo implied by him being confused about why he couldnt break out of it.
So that isn't an example of naruto actually beating a genjutsu on his own. You could say it is possible jiraiya used some Genjutsu on him for training but it is unproveable and so not an example.
The fact is we have yet to see Naruto fully break a Genjutsu on his own.
Im pretty sure it took both of them. Ill double check though.
Ok
Ill have to reread the chapter where the 8 tails broke it but it is unbeatable except for uchiha and the 9 tailed beast jinjurikins. Thats a fact :D
Wrong
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/15/
Killerbee says "In order to break the Illusion, I need a partner who can disturb my Chakra and snap me out of it." This is a reference to the same way that Sakura broke Naruto out of Itachis genjutsu. So as long as the person has a partner to disrupt their Chakra then Tsukyomi can be broken like any other genjutsu and isn't limited to the tailed beasts Jinchuriki and Uchiha's


lol ya. I try not to debate about things that can be interpereted two different ways cause either one could be correct. Everyones mind will work differently hence we have opposing interpreations on the same thing. But I do understand where your coming from ont his one though.:D
Yeah I see your point as well. But this argument never gets anywhere.:^^:
As I said above its still unbeatable except for 1 exception now (Naruto). Pein cannont becasue he was trapped by Jiriyas genjutsu and couldnt break out.
As before. There is nothing to suggest it can't be done by others as well as long as they have some kind of second chakra source
For the simple fact that genjutsu can be broken out of quite easily by someone of S-class rankings. Its ineffective and to be a captian, you have to be able to fight.
Show me where it is that ANBU have to be super fighters?
We don't know what is required to be ANBU members and so you can't say that he needs more then Genjutsu.
Also, the sharingan is useless if not used to hand to hand combat or ninjutsu countering. Sure it can penetrate genjutsu, but whats the point if there the one performing the jutsu.
Well you will need to use it to fight others if you have to.
Besides you wont see many assasinations with genjutsu.
Actually Genjutsu is the best for Assassins. High level Genjutsu's mean you could be in and ut without anyone knowing what had happened. Taijutsu would be too unreliable for Assassinations and if spotted can be countered the easiest. nnjutsus tend to be loud so on covert missions noise isn't always what you want. Genjutsu is generally silent and can be used on alot of people at the same time for very disruptive results making an assassination easier.
Another point I wanted to bring up was the fact that Itachi has the fastest hand seals in the world. If he couldnt do ninjutsu well whats the point in having that?
Genjutsu's also use hand signs. Also he was simply quick so it wasn't as if he made hand signs faster then he could move it was just natural for him to do hand signs quickly.

The final point I wanted to bring up was the fac that Itachi was part of the massacre. You cant take out half a clan with genjutsu and not have any skills in tai and ninjutsu. Its foolish to think that genjtsu was all he used in the battle. IF thats all he could use, he wouldnt have been ordered to do the massacre singlehandedly.
Ok I've said this before but I will bullet point it again
the Massacre
1/Was a surprise attack that the uchiha's weren't fully expecting
2/Since it was done by and Uchiha it would have been more surprising as they wouldn't have suspected someone like Itachi to be a traitor
3/It was at night
4/There was lots of confusion
5/(Possibly)Madara was there adding to the confusion
6/Many seemed to have been killed before they even knew they were under attack
7/Many were civilians who didn't or couldn't fight and so would have taken little skill to kill
When you look at it overall it would have actually been alot easier then many people think. it's not like Itachi had to take on everyone at the same time and he had a huge element of surprise against those he did fight so in reality it would have been alot easier for Itachi then is often made out to be.

[MinatoNamikaze]

So that isn't an example of naruto actually beating a genjutsu on his own. You could say it is possible jiraiya used some Genjutsu on him for training but it is unproveable and so not an example.
The fact is we have yet to see Naruto fully break a Genjutsu on his own.

Think about it. Would Jiriya stop training Naruto if he didnt at least know how to break out of genjtsu? Jiriya would have trained him to beat genjutsu
cause he knew he would have to fight Itachi and his genjutsu. Theres proof.

Wrong
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/413/15/
Killerbee says "In order to break the Illusion, I need a partner who can disturb my Chakra and snap me out of it." This is a reference to the same way that Sakura broke Naruto out of Itachis genjutsu. So as long as the person has a partner to disrupt their Chakra then Tsukyomi can be broken like any other genjutsu and isn't limited to the tailed beasts Jinchuriki and Uchiha's

Your missing the basis of the jutsu. Its the speed that makes it unstopable. In one second noone has time to react or even know that their partner is even in genjutsu. It takes one second and the enemy is dead. A jinjuriki or uchiha have the means of breaking it becasue it seems like an eternity in their. They have tons of time to inject external chakra into them. Thats why ONLY they can do it.

Yeah I see your point as well. But this argument never gets anywhere.:^^:

lol ya. That debate is better left untouched :xd:

As before. There is nothing to suggest it can't be done by others as well as long as they have some kind of second chakra source

Explained 2 points above :D

Show me where it is that ANBU have to be super fighters?
We don't know what is required to be ANBU members and so you can't say that he needs more then Genjutsu.

Elite fighters. They are like special forces meaning their better than any jounin (minus kakashi and Yamato). Think about it like real armies. Regular soldiers are chounin, marines are Jounin, and Special Forces are ANBU. Its a perfect representation. Special Forces are the best of the best, as are ANBU. ANBU were goign to fight Orochimaru for heaven sakes. Regular jounin wouldnt stand a chance. Genjustu isint really fighting. Its mental manipulation. ANBU are fighters and thus must have nin and taijutsu. Look at kakashi and Yamato. Both are very well rounded and elite ninja.

Well you will need to use it to fight others if you have to.

And the only way to fight it to use tai or ninjutsu

Actually Genjutsu is the best for Assassins. High level Genjutsu's mean you could be in and ut without anyone knowing what had happened. Taijutsu would be too unreliable for Assassinations and if spotted can be countered the easiest. nnjutsus tend to be loud so on covert missions noise isn't always what you want. Genjutsu is generally silent and can be used on alot of people at the same time for very disruptive results making an assassination easier.

However from what we have seen genjutsu only works in 1v1. It doesnt work when the ANBU are outnumbered thus they woudlnt have a pure genjutsu user. Its ineffective and dangerous.

Genjutsu's also use hand signs. Also he was simply quick so it wasn't as if he made hand signs faster then he could move it was just natural for him to do hand signs quickly.

And he got quick by practicing. Kakashi commented on how fast and efficiently he used suiton on him. Thats even more proof he was good at ninjutsu.

Ok I've said this before but I will bullet point it again
the Massacre
1/Was a surprise attack that the uchiha's weren't fully expecting

Proof of this. It looks like a full out battle occured. Bodies in t he streets, shuriken everywhere, smoke rising.

2/Since it was done by and Uchiha it would have been more surprising as they wouldn't have suspected someone like Itachi to be a traitor

Irrelevent. If they see Itachi atacking them they would automatically fight him in self defense.

3/It was at night

Completely irrelevent.

4/There was lots of confusion

Why, there were 2 people fighting everyone else. There were only 2 fronts to consentrate on. Not very confusing. SHocking maybe but not confusing at all.

5/(Possibly)Madara was there adding to the confusion

^^

6/Many seemed to have been killed before they even knew they were under attack

Proof?? As I said before shuriken were everywhere, blood splattered and bodies were in the streets not their homes.


7/Many were civilians who didn't or couldn't fight and so would have taken little skill to kill

Irrelevent. The clan is powerful because of its fighting members, not its civilians. Its still the most powerful clan in the world (equal to the Senju who we havent ever seen). Clans are what makes a country strong adn to destroy the most powerful clan with 2 people is incredible and impossible to do with pure genjutsu.

When you look at it overall it would have actually been alot easier then many people think. it's not like Itachi had to take on everyone at the same time and he had a huge element of surprise against those he did fight so in reality it would have been alot easier for Itachi then is often made out to be.

Actaully thats not true. Theres a reason it is hailed as a huge achievement. THE MOST POWERFUL CLAN IN THE WORLD. Theres no point trying to make it sound like it was taking out an academy class :D

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Think about it. Would Jiriya stop training Naruto if he didnt at least know how to break out of genjtsu? Jiriya would have trained him to beat genjutsu
cause he knew he would have to fight Itachi and his genjutsu. Theres proof.
Unproveable. What is likely or not likely isn't the problem. the problem is that there is no proof Jiraiya ever used Genjutsu on him.
I agree he probably did but that is unproveable.
Your missing the basis of the jutsu. Its the speed that makes it unstopable. In one second noone has time to react or even know that their partner is even in genjutsu. It takes one second and the enemy is dead. A jinjuriki or uchiha have the means of breaking it becasue it seems like an eternity in their. They have tons of time to inject external chakra into them. Thats why ONLY they can do it.
Correction. Anyone can do it. it would be extremely had but the point is that anyone not just Jinchuriki or uchiha's can do it. Also preventative measure can then be used such as when you see him readying tsukyomi you already have the chakra there to counter.
Tsukyomi can be countered by anybody.
lol ya. That debate is better left untouched :xd:
Agreed
Elite fighters. They are like special forces meaning their better than any jounin (minus kakashi and Yamato). Think about it like real armies. Regular soldiers are chounin, marines are Jounin, and Special Forces are ANBU. Its a perfect representation. Special Forces are the best of the best, as are ANBU. ANBU were goign to fight Orochimaru for heaven sakes. Regular jounin wouldnt stand a chance. Genjustu isint really fighting. Its mental manipulation. ANBU are fighters and thus must have nin and taijutsu. Look at kakashi and Yamato. Both are very well rounded and elite ninja.
Think of it more like this.
Regular footsoldiers/grunts=Genin/Chuunin
Samurai=Jounin
Anbu=Ninja's (I mean real life ninja's)
Jounins are the Elites that specialise in head to head combat (Much like the Samurai)
ninjas although exceptionally skilled fighters relied more on other skills rather then facing an opponent head on in a fair fight.
That is like ANBU. Anbu are the ones that go covert, they work from behind the scenes in black op's missions rather then the more public missions. They are the assassins and spies as well as elite task groups where the Jounin are the Frontline powerhouses
And the only way to fight it to use tai or ninjutsu
Supplemented by powerful Genjutsu the Nin/Taijutsu would not need to be brilliant
However from what we have seen genjutsu only works in 1v1. It doesnt work when the ANBU are outnumbered thus they woudlnt have a pure genjutsu user. Its ineffective and dangerous.
Kabuto used a Genjutsu during the Chuunin exam that affected an entire stadium.
And he got quick by practicing. Kakashi commented on how fast and efficiently he used suiton on him. Thats even more proof he was good at ninjutsu.
Fast hand signs and the ability to perfectly mimic an opponent are hardly showing great ninjutsu.
Proof of this. It looks like a full out battle occured. Bodies in t he streets, shuriken everywhere, smoke rising.
Means nothing. just because there are bodies in the street doesn't show fighting. it shows panic.
Irrelevent. If they see Itachi atacking them they would automatically fight him in self defense.
But if they didn't see itachi fighting then they would have no reason to have suspected him as an enemy until he stabbed them in the back.
So hardly irrelevant
Completely irrelevent.
Agin this is more relevant then the last. Night raids were exceptionally efficient because it is easier to move around and the enemy has more trouble when it is dark.
Darkness was a huge help to Itachi
Why, there were 2 people fighting everyone else. There were only 2 fronts to consentrate on. Not very confusing. SHocking maybe but not confusing at all.
Think of it like this.
A/You just woke up
b/people are running in a blind panic
c/All you know is there is an attack (You don't know who is attacking or why)
Would you know who/where to fight?
People would have been shocked and confused which is anouther advange to Itachi (Who they thought was on their side)

Proof?? As I said before shuriken were everywhere, blood splattered and bodies were in the streets not their homes.
The Parents. Killed inside the home with no signs of a struggle
Also you see very few people in the streets for such a large clan don't you?
Irrelevent. The clan is powerful because of its fighting members, not its civilians. Its still the most powerful clan in the world (equal to the Senju who we havent ever seen). Clans are what makes a country strong adn to destroy the most powerful clan with 2 people is incredible and impossible to do with pure genjutsu.
He obviously didn't use just Genjutsu for this (Remember I never said he couldn't do Nin/Taijutsu just that it wasn't necessarily better then average)
Also Civilians running around in a blind panic wold have added to the confusion that night once more making Itachis job alot easier
Actaully thats not true. Theres a reason it is hailed as a huge achievement. THE MOST POWERFUL CLAN IN THE WORLD. Theres no point trying to make it sound like it was taking out an academy class :D
1/Prove they were the most powerful (They were weaker then the Senju weren't they?)
2/It was a massacre, not a battle a massacre. Hardly Itachi taking on the entire clan by himself he simply used confusion to (In some cases literally) stab his own people in the back. this hardly requires a great warrior to kill sleeping people and civilians in the dead of night.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Unproveable. What is likely or not likely isn't the problem. the problem is that there is no proof Jiraiya ever used Genjutsu on him.
I agree he probably did but that is unproveable.

Heres a link that proves Jiriya trained Naruto in how to break genjutsu http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/10/

Correction. Anyone can do it. it would be extremely had but the point is that anyone not just Jinchuriki or uchiha's can do it. Also preventative measure can then be used such as when you see him readying tsukyomi you already have the chakra there to counter.
Tsukyomi can be countered by anybody.

Thats incorrect. Not anyone can break out of it. IF you dont believe me please PM Muffin, Majinsharingan or Smiley. They will all tell you there are only a few exceptions :D

Think of it more like this.
Regular footsoldiers/grunts=Genin/Chuunin
Samurai=Jounin
Anbu=Ninja's (I mean real life ninja's)
Jounins are the Elites that specialise in head to head combat (Much like the Samurai)
ninjas although exceptionally skilled fighters relied more on other skills rather then facing an opponent head on in a fair fight.
That is like ANBU. Anbu are the ones that go covert, they work from behind the scenes in black op's missions rather then the more public missions. They are the assassins and spies as well as elite task groups where the Jounin are the Frontline powerhouses

A good analysis but ANBU are still more skilled than Jounin. An ANBU would be more effective on the front line than a jounin. However as you said, their job is mostly stealth. Thats being said, who were the ones who were goign to help the 3rd fight oro? ANBU memerbs, not a single Jounin. This is because ANBU are better fighters than Jounin.

Supplemented by powerful Genjutsu the Nin/Taijutsu would not need to be brilliant

I dont mean to say Itachi had brilliant nin or taijutsu. By no measn do i beleive he was hiding some kickass ninjutsu like Kirin or Rasenshuriken. I was just saying his nin/taijutsu arebetter than that of a regular jounin and ANBU. Hes not pathetic like Kurenai is. Thats where everone is drawing up the conclusion he must be terible at everything else.

Kabuto used a Genjutsu during the Chuunin exam that affected an entire stadium.

Yes that was a specific genjutsu but easy to break out of.

Fast hand signs and the ability to perfectly mimic an opponent are hardly showing great ninjutsu.

But whats the point in having fast hand signs if you cant use ninjutsu to help you fight?

But if they didn't see itachi fighting then they would have no reason to have suspected him as an enemy until he stabbed them in the back.
So hardly irrelevant

How could they not know whos atacking them. Anyone killing uchiha would be an enemy. And since all the action is happening around one or two guys, it wouldnt be confusing at all.

Agin this is more relevant then the last. Night raids were exceptionally efficient because it is easier to move around and the enemy has more trouble when it is dark.
Darkness was a huge help to Itachi

No more helpful than it was for clan memebrs. Besides, who said it happened at dark. The massacre was over beofre sasuke got home and that was just when it was getting dark. So in all probablity, it happened at dusk.

Think of it like this.
A/You just woke up
b/people are running in a blind panic
c/All you know is there is an attack (You don't know who is attacking or why)
Would you know who/where to fight?
People would have been shocked and confused which is anouther advange to Itachi (Who they thought was on their side)

They may not understand what going on but when they see Itachi killing clan memebrs I dont think theyll have stood there dumbfounded. they would quickly take up arms and figth back.

The Parents. Killed inside the home with no signs of a struggle
Also you see very few people in the streets for such a large clan don't you?

The parents were beaten. They woudl have fought back. But Itachi defeated them both. They would come peacfully and kneel donw infront of Itachi.

1/Prove they were the most powerful (They were weaker then the Senju weren't they?)

They were equals with Senju. Look at the chapters where Madara is explaining their past. It says a couple times uchiha were the strongest.

2/It was a massacre, not a battle a massacre. Hardly Itachi taking on the entire clan by himself he simply used confusion to (In some cases literally) stab his own people in the back. this hardly requires a great warrior to kill sleeping people and civilians in the dead of night.

Mind proving there was no battle? I have pics that show smoke rising and shuriken everwhere with blood and bodies lieing the streets.

[CaptFlowers]

tobi....hes immortal how can he die, he moves at the speed of light none of peins attack can even touch him

[MinatoNamikaze]

tobi....hes immortal how can he die, he moves at the speed of light none of peins attack can even touch him

we dont know his full abilities but I think its generally preceived that he or Pein would be the last two

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Heres a link that proves Jiriya trained Naruto in how to break genjutsu http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/259/10/
I know Jiraiya taught Naruto how to break a genjutsu.
but have we ever seen naruto actually break a Genjutu that has been cast on him
The answer is No.
Thats incorrect. Not anyone can break out of it. IF you dont believe me please PM Muffin, Majinsharingan or Smiley. They will all tell you there are only a few exceptions :D
Whatever.
However the evidence is there for it being possible for anyone to break it.


A good analysis but ANBU are still more skilled than Jounin. An ANBU would be more effective on the front line than a jounin. However as you said, their job is mostly stealth.
Where do people keep getting this idea that ANBU are better then Jounin??
It always seemed to me that ANBU were anything from Chunin to Jounin level in strength.
I mean kabuto beat an entire ANBU black ops squad on his own. That hardly sounds like they were all super Jounin.
In the Oro vs Hokage fight one ran head first into a barrier........again hardly the mark of a great fighter.
Also Kakashi was ANBU before becomming a Jounin so why would him and others want to be Demoted like that?
he other thing is Sai. He is hardly jounin level and nowhere close to being better then Jounin.
Sorry but no ANBU are not better then Jounin. Sometimes their equal but not always.
Thats being said, who were the ones who were goign to help the 3rd fight oro? ANBU memerbs, not a single Jounin. This is because ANBU are better fighters than Jounin.
No that was because those particular ANBU were his BODYGUARDS at the time. Their Job was to help protect the Hokage (And a fine job they did too)
I dont mean to say Itachi had brilliant nin or taijutsu. By no measn do i beleive he was hiding some kickass ninjutsu like Kirin or Rasenshuriken. I was just saying his nin/taijutsu arebetter than that of a regular jounin and ANBU. Hes not pathetic like Kurenai is. Thats where everone is drawing up the conclusion he must be terible at everything else.
But we have never seen him reallly use all that many good Nin/Tai Jutsu. Good yes but brilliant? thats debatable.
His Nin/Taijutsu may be comparable to other Jounin but really all he did was spam two techniques alot (Tsukyomi and ameratsu) and the other stuff we saw all it really had was the advantage of Sharingan and Itachi being fast.
As for Kurenai we have never really seen her fight so we can't tell how good she is (I don't really count the kinda one sided fight against Itachi)
Yes that was a specific genjutsu but easy to break out of.
Still it proves genjutsu can be used to affect multiple targets.
Anouther one was kakashi vs Naruto and Sakura he caught them both in a genjutsu
But whats the point in having fast hand signs if you cant use ninjutsu to help you fight?
:facepalm: He was fast. it was natural and not all because he needed it for ninjutsu.
How could they not know whos atacking them. Anyone killing uchiha would be an enemy. And since all the action is happening around one or two guys, it wouldnt be confusing at all.
Yes it would be terribly confusing. Remember most of them wouldn't have realosed Itachi was an enemy Until it was too late. By that stage they would have been dead or the next best thing to it.
It's Ok to say that it was only two people attacking but if you don't know who the attackers are then that information is kinda pointless.
No more helpful than it was for clan memebrs. Besides, who said it happened at dark. The massacre was over beofre sasuke got home and that was just when it was getting dark. So in all probablity, it happened at dusk.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/11/
Hardly seems like Dusk. It was quite late and the moon was out.
As for the dark it always favors the attackers. It means it would have been easier for itachi to move around and would have disorientated an already confused enemy. Remember most of them probably didn't know they were under attack and those that did would have had no Idea who was attacking.
Darkness favoured Itachi
They may not understand what going on but when they see Itachi killing clan memebrs I dont think theyll have stood there dumbfounded. they would quickly take up arms and figth back.
Possibly but it was dark and how many would have realized what was going on with Itachi before it was too late?
The parents were beaten. They would have fought back. But Itachi defeated them both. They would come peacfully and kneel donw infront of Itachi.
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/12/
Bottom Left.
They were killed effectively in their beds by the looks of things and there seems to be no real sign of a struggle beyond a single broken vase.
Does that really tell you that the head of the Uchiha clan put up any real fight.

They were equals with Senju. Look at the chapters where Madara is explaining their past. It says a couple times uchiha were the strongest.
So they weren't really the strongest as the Senju were just as powerful?
Mind proving there was no battle? I have pics that show smoke rising and shuriken everwhere with blood and bodies lieing the streets.
All present at massacres.
Mind telling me where all the warriors are?
If it was so easy for the Uchihas to react to Itachi's attack then where are all the warriors in the street?
For such a large clan there seem to be surprising few people who made it out of their houses?
Why is that?
Why is there no real evidence of fighting beyond a couple of Kunai? (And the fire is unknown and not necessarily a result of fighting)

[MinatoNamikaze]

I know Jiraiya taught Naruto how to break a genjutsu.
but have we ever seen naruto actually break a Genjutu that has been cast on him
The answer is No.

No. Itachis the only real genjtsu user so Naruto hasnt had to break genjutsu yet. Do you beleive Jiriya would have moved on from genjtusu training if Naruto didnt have any idea how to break basic genjutsu

Whatever.
However the evidence is there for it being possible for anyone to break it.

Well its not possible for others to break it. Ask anyone, seriuosly just ask :D

Where do people keep getting this idea that ANBU are better then Jounin??
It always seemed to me that ANBU were anything from Chunin to Jounin level in strength.
I mean kabuto beat an entire ANBU black ops squad on his own. That hardly sounds like they were all super Jounin.
In the Oro vs Hokage fight one ran head first into a barrier........again hardly the mark of a great fighter.
Also Kakashi was ANBU before becomming a Jounin so why would him and others want to be Demoted like that?
he other thing is Sai. He is hardly jounin level and nowhere close to being better then Jounin.
Sorry but no ANBU are not better then Jounin. Sometimes their equal but not always.

Incorrect. Kakashi went from Jounin, to ANBU THEN BACK to Jounin. IDK its commone sense. Why is it that ANBU are only sent on S-Rank missions where as Jounin are sent on mainly A and sometimes S rank missions? Also Yamato came DOWN from ANBU to Jounin. Itachi went from Jounin to ANBU and was the S-class missing nin. Also why do you think it was stressed that Itachi was an ANBU CAPTAIN at age 13. If ANBU were just Chunin level ninjas, this fact would be pointless and kakashi would not have mentioned it. Why do you think the ANBU are out of the police forces jurustiction? All of these examples are proof that ANBU are better than Jounin. I didnt hink ANYBODY thought otherwise. Its pure and basic common sense/knowledge.

No that was because those particular ANBU were his BODYGUARDS at the time. Their Job was to help protect the Hokage (And a fine job they did too)

Tell me something then. Why didnt they have jounin protecting the Hokage and why are ANBU controlled entirly by the Hokage.

But we have never seen him reallly use all that many good Nin/Tai Jutsu. Good yes but brilliant? thats debatable.
His Nin/Taijutsu may be comparable to other Jounin but really all he did was spam two techniques alot (Tsukyomi and ameratsu) and the other stuff we saw all it really had was the advantage of Sharingan and Itachi being fast.
As for Kurenai we have never really seen her fight so we can't tell how good she is (I don't really count the kinda one sided fight against Itachi)

Miscommunication on my part. I did not mean to imply that Itachi was a crazy nin/taijutsu user. Other than MS there is no proof of a tech like rasenshuriken or Kirin. What I was trying to get across was that he was slightly better at them than the average jounin. People are thinking hes chunin level which is complete BS. Taking him MS into consideration and his ninjutsu skills are incredible. Amateratsu is one of the best jutsu out there ever. Its up there with black hole, rasenshuriken, and kirin. Adding in sasuno also aids my case for why he is actually fenominal with ninjutsu.

:facepalm: He was fast. it was natural and not all because he needed it for ninjutsu.

He as fast because he was a genius.

Yes it would be terribly confusing. Remember most of them wouldn't have realosed Itachi was an enemy Until it was too late. By that stage they would have been dead or the next best thing to it.
It's Ok to say that it was only two people attacking but if you don't know who the attackers are then that information is kinda pointless.

It wouldnt be confusing. there two targets. Easily distinguishable ecause of the fact that all the uchiha r running towards them and all the uchiha are being killed by them. Its no more confusing than when the Sand attacked Konoha. Shocking no doubt but Konoha was able to quickly put up a fight.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/11/
Hardly seems like Dusk. It was quite late and the moon was out.
As for the dark it always favors the attackers. It means it would have been easier for itachi to move around and would have disorientated an already confused enemy. Remember most of them probably didn't know they were under attack and those that did would have had no Idea who was attacking.
Darkness favoured Itachi

That actually helps my point. Note how low the moon is in the sky. That means it was only just after sun set. Thats when sasuke was getting home from the academy. That measn the attack woudl have happened sometime before that point meaning it was light out.

Possibly but it was dark and how many would have realized what was going on with Itachi before it was too late?

Why, hes killing Uchiha. Its not a confusing concept. Someone attacks your clan and you fight them no matter who they are.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/224/12/
Bottom Left.
They were killed effectively in their beds by the looks of things and there seems to be no real sign of a struggle beyond a single broken vase.
Does that really tell you that the head of the Uchiha clan put up any real fight.

If they were killed in their bed, was are they lieing akwardly overeach other and why is there dragging and scattered blood everywhere??? He didnt just run in and quitely stab them.

So they weren't really the strongest as the Senju were just as powerful?

Yes as I believe i said, they AND the senju were the strongest clans. Thats not debatable its a fact. They were even.

All present at massacres.
Mind telling me where all the warriors are?
If it was so easy for the Uchihas to react to Itachi's attack then where are all the warriors in the street?
For such a large clan there seem to be surprising few people who made it out of their houses?
Why is that?
Why is there no real evidence of fighting beyond a couple of Kunai? (And the fire is unknown and not necessarily a result of fighting)


Ok well im sorry kishi didnt show you the whole uchiha village. He showed us 2 sections and there were 5 dead. Surprising he didnt show anyone in their beds caught off gaurd. Besides if it was a slit throat campaign anyone could do it. WHy would he need Madara's help? Sasuke said Itachi alone wasnt strong enough to kill all the uchiha in battle. This proves it was a battle. If it was a slit throat campaign, Itachi could handle it himself.

[Muffin]

No. Itachis the only real genjtsu user so Naruto hasnt had to break genjutsu yet. Do you beleive Jiriya would have moved on from genjtusu training if Naruto didnt have any idea how to break basic genjutsu
Jiraiya was probably more concerned about training Naruto to harness the Kyuubi's chakra than getting out genjutsu. Naruto sucks at Genjutsu that's why he can't get out of it.


Incorrect. Kakashi went from Jounin, to ANBU THEN BACK to Jounin. IDK its commone sense. Why is it that ANBU are only sent on S-Rank missions where as Jounin are sent on mainly A and sometimes S rank missions? Also Yamato came DOWN from ANBU to Jounin. Itachi went from Jounin to ANBU and was the S-class missing nin. Also why do you think it was stressed that Itachi was an ANBU CAPTAIN at age 13. If ANBU were just Chunin level ninjas, this fact would be pointless and kakashi would not have mentioned it. Why do you think the ANBU are out of the police forces jurustiction? All of these examples are proof that ANBU are better than Jounin. I didnt hink ANYBODY thought otherwise. Its pure and basic common sense/knowledge.

It's not common sense. Sai is Anbu. Are you saying Sai is stronger than Asuma, Kurenei, Gai etc. There is no reason to think Anbu are the cream of the crop. They're fodder ninja with masks for gods sake their entire purpose is to get killed and be amazed at other people's abilities. It was also never really an important fact that Itachi was Anbu at a young age. You're simply trying to stress it because your obsessed with Itachi :huh:


Tell me something then. Why didnt they have jounin protecting the Hokage and why are ANBU controlled entirly by the Hokage.
Because Jounin have Gennin to train and those Anbu in particular were chosen to be the Hokages bodyguard.


Miscommunication on my part. I did not mean to imply that Itachi was a crazy nin/taijutsu user. Other than MS there is no proof of a tech like rasenshuriken or Kirin. What I was trying to get across was that he was slightly better at them than the average jounin. People are thinking hes chunin level which is complete BS. Taking him MS into consideration and his ninjutsu skills are incredible. Amateratsu is one of the best jutsu out there ever. Its up there with black hole, rasenshuriken, and kirin. Adding in sasuno also aids my case for why he is actually fenominal with ninjutsu.
Well without Mangekyo, Itachi is nothing special. His katon are inferior to Sasuke's. There's no reason to think he's better than average and Tai or ninjutsu without Mangekyo.


He as fast because he was a genius.
He was fast because he trained to move his hands fast. Kakashi learned to do it too.


It wouldnt be confusing. there two targets. Easily distinguishable ecause of the fact that all the uchiha r running towards them and all the uchiha are being killed by them. Its no more confusing than when the Sand attacked Konoha. Shocking no doubt but Konoha was able to quickly put up a fight.
Picture it then. Your walking through your home town and suddenly you hear a scream and people panicking you run to see the commotion and see dead bodies lying around and no one you don't recognize and suddenly you're struck in the head with a throwing star.

Nope not confusing at all. The fact it was one of their own is the main reason they didn't get past the "OMG WTF Y?!!!?11?" phase.


That actually helps my point. Note how low the moon is in the sky. That means it was only just after sun set. Thats when sasuke was getting home from the academy. That measn the attack woudl have happened sometime before that point meaning it was light out.
:lmao:


Why, hes killing Uchiha. Its not a confusing concept. Someone attacks your clan and you fight them no matter who they are.
It is confusing. They didn't know who to attack until their throats were slit.


If they were killed in their bed, was are they lieing akwardly overeach other and why is there dragging and scattered blood everywhere??? He didnt just run in and quitely stab them.
He could've killed the mother and once the father sits up has his throat slit aswell. Blood does tend to spray a bit when someone is slashed.


Yes as I believe i said, they AND the senju were the strongest clans. Thats not debatable its a fact. They were even.
Nah. Senju were better.



Ok well im sorry kishi didnt show you the whole uchiha village. He showed us 2 sections and there were 5 dead. Surprising he didnt show anyone in their beds caught off gaurd. Besides if it was a slit throat campaign anyone could do it. WHy would he need Madara's help? Sasuke said Itachi alone wasnt strong enough to kill all the uchiha in battle. This proves it was a battle. If it was a slit throat campaign, Itachi could handle it himself.

Because Itachi was the spy for the village. He was the one ready to do it. Danzou expected him to be able to do it alone. Itachi knew he couldn't do it alone because Itachi is pathetic against more than one opponent. That is why Itachi sought after Madara.

As for the topic on hand. Itachi will not survive longer than Kakazu, Sasori, Kisame, Orochimaru, Pein or Madara. He will be one of the first 5 killed because of his limited stamina and chakra capacities. Deidara, Hidan and Konan won't far too much better either imo. Zetsu will probably sit in the walls until someone gets sick of his smart mouth.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Before I even get into countering the post I just have to say this was a post to spite me. Im not an idiot, I know you dont like me:xd: :p

Jiraiya was probably more concerned about training Naruto to harness the Kyuubi's chakra than getting out genjutsu. Naruto sucks at Genjutsu that's why he can't get out of it.

Itachi was narutos biggest threat. Jiriya wouldnt have said screw Genjutsu you can already beat Itachi genjutsu abilities.

It's not common sense. Sai is Anbu. Are you saying Sai is stronger than Asuma, Kurenei, Gai etc. There is no reason to think Anbu are the cream of the crop. They're fodder ninja with masks for gods sake their entire purpose is to get killed and be amazed at other people's abilities. It was also never really an important fact that Itachi was Anbu at a young age. You're simply trying to stress it because your obsessed with Itachi :huh:

Sai was ANBU ROOT.

ALso the point I was trying to make about Itachi was that kakashi mentioned he was an ANBU captain not a Jounin elite. If ANBU<Jounin why would THREE high level Jounin worry about ONE ANBU ninja???????

Because Jounin have Gennin to train and those Anbu in particular were chosen to be the Hokages bodyguard.

Jounin only train 3 genin once in their lives. Other than that they complete reg missions.

Well without Mangekyo, Itachi is nothing special. His katon are inferior to Sasuke's. There's no reason to think he's better than average and Tai or ninjutsu without Mangekyo.

Not even going to bother

He was fast because he trained to move his hands fast. Kakashi learned to do it too.

Kakashi still isint as fast as Itachi. ANd saying that helps my point. Why did kakashi train in hand seals? To be BETTER AT NINJUTSU!!

Picture it then. Your walking through your home town and suddenly you hear a scream and people panicking you run to see the commotion and see dead bodies lying around and no one you don't recognize and suddenly you're struck in the head with a throwing star.

If a ninja hears screaming they are going to be on gaurd. Their not stupid you know. :susp:

Nope not confusing at all. The fact it was one of their own is the main reason they didn't get past the "OMG WTF Y?!!!?11?" phase.

Its not a confusing fact. Shocking no doubt but their not going to be staning there saying "hmm hes killing our clan, what should I do? I guess ill just stand here and let him kill me then".

:lmao:

Thank you I do find myslef quite funny.... :lol: :p jks

It is confusing. They didn't know who to attack until their throats were slit.

Yes because one shinobi attacking countless others is just oh so confusing. ;) :p

He could've killed the mother and once the father sits up has his throat slit aswell. Blood does tend to spray a bit when someone is slashed.

please take note of how the blood was splattered thank you.

Nah. Senju were better.

Oh ya cause its says that in the Manga. Uchiha = Senju


Because Itachi was the spy for the village. He was the one ready to do it. Danzou expected him to be able to do it alone. Itachi knew he couldn't do it alone because Itachi is pathetic against more than one opponent. That is why Itachi sought after Madara.

Wow I cant even be bothered to argue with your Anti-Itachi mindset

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

No. Itachis the only real genjtsu user so Naruto hasnt had to break genjutsu yet. Do you beleive Jiriya would have moved on from genjtusu training if Naruto didnt have any idea how to break basic genjutsu
He knew the idea but until you show the Manga panel showing naruto breaking out of a Genjutsu it is nothing more then a theory.
Also we have seen Naruto caught in other Genjutsu.
Example is the exam stadium where he was on of the few ninja who didn't break the Genjutsu
Well its not possible for others to break it. Ask anyone, seriuosly just ask :D
Why. It was proved by the page I showed I don't see how they could say anything different.
Incorrect. Kakashi went from Jounin, to ANBU THEN BACK to Jounin. IDK its commone sense. Why is it that ANBU are only sent on S-Rank missions where as Jounin are sent on mainly A and sometimes S rank missions?
Where does it say only ANBU are sent on S-rank missions?
And remember that Jounin are also sent on lower rank missions as leaders for Squads of say Chunin or Genin
Also Yamato came DOWN from ANBU to Jounin. Itachi went from Jounin to ANBU and was the S-class missing nin.
Where does it say he went down?

Also why do you think it was stressed that Itachi was an ANBU CAPTAIN at age 13.
Because an ANBU captain is a higher rank then just ANBU
I means It's like stressing that Kakashi was a jounin at like 7 but it didn't need to stress he was a genin at like 6 or something (As an example cos I don't know when he became a genin)
If ANBU were just Chunin level ninjas, this fact would be pointless and kakashi would not have mentioned it.
I said Chnin to jounin level. Some ANBU would be Jounin Level but some like Sai are not.

Why do you think the ANBU are out of the police forces jurustiction?
Same reason spies are treated differently then prisoners of war.
All of these examples are proof that ANBU are better than Jounin. I didnt hink ANYBODY thought otherwise. Its pure and basic common sense/knowledge.
No it's not and I have yet to see anything backing up the claim that ANBU are better then Jounin
Tell me something then. Why didnt they have jounin protecting the Hokage and why are ANBU controlled entirly by the Hokage.
He did have a Jounin but he was Killed right at the start (Remember he had the scar across his face)
And they are the covert arm of the Hokage and are not part of their mainstream military structure.
Miscommunication on my part. I did not mean to imply that Itachi was a crazy nin/taijutsu user. Other than MS there is no proof of a tech like rasenshuriken or Kirin. What I was trying to get across was that he was slightly better at them than the average jounin. People are thinking hes chunin level which is complete BS. Taking him MS into consideration and his ninjutsu skills are incredible. Amateratsu is one of the best jutsu out there ever. Its up there with black hole, rasenshuriken, and kirin. Adding in sasuno also aids my case for why he is actually fenominal with ninjutsu.
Take MS out of the Picture and Itachi is very ordinary for a Jounin ninja.
Without Ameratsu,Tsukyomi and Susanoo which are all MS techniques he really only has some Genjutsu and some Fire techs to go with his speed.
He as fast because he was a genius.
If that was the Case then Shikamaru should be the fastest character ever.

It wouldnt be confusing. there two targets. Easily distinguishable ecause of the fact that all the uchiha r running towards them and all the uchiha are being killed by them. Its no more confusing than when the Sand attacked Konoha. Shocking no doubt but Konoha was able to quickly put up a fight.
But when the sand attacked they knew that the sand were the enemy as well as the sound. The Uchiha's wouldn't have known who was attacking or from where and so would have not had a clue as to what was really going on.
That actually helps my point. Note how low the moon is in the sky. That means it was only just after sun set. Thats when sasuke was getting home from the academy. That measn the attack woudl have happened sometime before that point meaning it was light out.:facepalm: Seriously. I don't know what the moon is like where you are but I have sen it outside my window at like 3 in the morning and it is barely above the treetops. It's height has nothing to do wit the time it is at night.
Why, hes killing Uchiha. Its not a confusing concept. Someone attacks your clan and you fight them no matter who they are.
It's dark and there are lots of people who have no idea what is going on bar that someone is attacking them. They would have had no clue at all that the next person they came across was either the killer or some random.
If they were killed in their bed, was are they lieing akwardly overeach other and why is there dragging and scattered blood everywhere??? He didnt just run in and quitely stab them.
It doesn't look like dragging it looks more like Bloody footprints and blood splatter. All signs of an unsuspecting couple being killed without a fight.
Yes as I believe i said, they AND the senju were the strongest clans. Thats not debatable its a fact. They were even.
Prove it?
Ok well im sorry kishi didnt show you the whole uchiha village. He showed us 2 sections and there were 5 dead.
Surprising considering by your assumptions they should have mustered a co-ordinated and organised defence against itachi........However there seems to be little to sopport that much in the way of fighting actually occured.

Surprising he didnt show anyone in their beds caught off gaurd. Besides if it was a slit throat campaign anyone could do it. WHy would he need Madara's help? Sasuke said Itachi alone wasnt strong enough to kill all the uchiha in battle. This proves it was a battle. If it was a slit throat campaign, Itachi could handle it himself.
He couldn't kill them in battle........so he didn't......... he used Madara to aid his slit throat campaign and it worked.

[Muffin]

Itachi was narutos biggest threat. Jiriya wouldnt have said screw Genjutsu you can already beat Itachi genjutsu abilities.
Jiraiya wasn't worried about only Itachi, Akatsuki had more than just Itachi to worry about. Naruto needed a lot of work done, Jiraiya needed to teach Naruto all the basics and refine his skills. If Jiraiya taught Naruto all he knew about Genjutsu then he is a horrible teacher.


Sai was ANBU ROOT.

ALso the point I was trying to make about Itachi was that kakashi mentioned he was an ANBU captain not a Jounin elite. If ANBU<Jounin why would THREE high level Jounin worry about ONE ANBU ninja???????
Sai was Anbu. A different division of Anbu under another leader but still Anbu.

Did it look like Asuma and Kurenei were really frightened about Itachi? They engaged him before Kakashi even came along. Itachi wasn't the only one there either, Kisame also did his part.


Jounin only train 3 genin once in their lives. Other than that they complete reg missions.
Exactly. They're teachers. Their lives aren't completely revolved around missions they have a duty to train gennin as well.



Kakashi still isint as fast as Itachi. ANd saying that helps my point. Why did kakashi train in hand seals? To be BETTER AT NINJUTSU!!
Kakashi is just as fast as Itachi at making hand seals. It doesn't help your point. Kakashi saw it once and then trained to do it. Fast hand seals just mean Itachi can move his hands fast.


If a ninja hears screaming they are going to be on gaurd. Their not stupid you know. :susp:
Yet most of the Uchiha clan weren't Ninja's.


Its not a confusing fact. Shocking no doubt but their not going to be staning there saying "hmm hes killing our clan, what should I do? I guess ill just stand here and let him kill me then".
No because of Itachi's stealthy tactics they wouldn't even know who it is that is attacking them.


Yes because one shinobi attacking countless others is just oh so confusing. ;) :p
It is when it is dark, unprovoked, someone you know and when it happens in stealth.


please take note of how the blood was splattered thank you.
Blood sprays when you slash something. Slashing his father's throat would spray blood.


Oh ya cause its says that in the Manga. Uchiha = Senju
Funny. Did you forget about the part where they were almost equal until you account that the strongest Uchiha who ever lived got his ass handed to him by Hashirama?



Wow I cant even be bothered to argue with your Anti-Itachi mindset

Yea i hate when facts and logic get in the way of my fanboyism.

[D.I.Y Death]

After the last manga chapter it would be insane to say Pein doesn't win this...unless Madara has some nifty tricks we haven't seen yet.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Jiraiya wasn't worried about only Itachi, Akatsuki had more than just Itachi to worry about. Naruto needed a lot of work done, Jiraiya needed to teach Naruto all the basics and refine his skills. If Jiraiya taught Naruto all he knew about Genjutsu then he is a horrible teacher.

Itachi was the only one assigned to Naruto. He would have been the first priority. If Itachi wanted to, he would have taken Naruto a long time ago.

Sai was Anbu. A different division of Anbu under another leader but still Anbu.

ANBU ROOT. Deifferent division, different leader, differnt group. They are not equivelent.

Did it look like Asuma and Kurenei were really frightened about Itachi? They engaged him before Kakashi even came along. Itachi wasn't the only one there either, Kisame also did his part.

http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.php?s=naruto&c=142&p=11

Here is where kakashi says Itachi was in ANBU captain at age 13. Note sweat on their faces.

Exactly. They're teachers. Their lives aren't completely revolved around missions they have a duty to train gennin as well.

They only train 1 set of genin and thats only far a year or two max. Then their done.

Kakashi is just as fast as Itachi at making hand seals. It doesn't help your point. Kakashi saw it once and then trained to do it. Fast hand seals just mean Itachi can move his hands fast.

Prove it. Hes still not as fast as Itachi.

Yet most of the Uchiha clan weren't Ninja's.

Prove it. The majority were fighters but a good number werent but thats COMPLETELY irrelevent. The clans stregnth is based on its warriors, bot its civilians so the number of civilians is irrelevent.

No because of Itachi's stealthy tactics they wouldn't even know who it is that is attacking them.

If he did it stealthly, noone would have even known they were attacked which they did


Blood sprays when you slash something. Slashing his father's throat would spray blood.

I know it sprays, but look at how its spllattered.

Funny. Did you forget about the part where they were almost equal until you account that the strongest Uchiha who ever lived got his ass handed to him by Hashirama?

Madara didint get slaughtered. He was defeated yes but thats unimportnat. The clans stregnth was equal but the leaders of senju were better leaders.

Yea i hate when facts and logic get in the way of my fanboyism.

I hate when your hate for me gets in the way of your good posting

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Itachi was the only one assigned to Naruto. He would have been the first priority. If Itachi wanted to, he would have taken Naruto a long time ago.
No remember they needed Naruto to be the last one because of the Nine Tails needing to be the last one extracted.
ANBU ROOT. Deifferent division, different leader, differnt group. They are not equivelent.
They are the same as other ANBU. the only difference is that they are loyal to Danzou.
They are still ANBU
http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.php?s=naruto&c=142&p=11

Here is where kakashi says Itachi was in ANBU captain at age 13. Note sweat on their faces.
It's not sweat.
At the top of the page it clearly shows that they just had alot of water rain down on top of them.
It was simply water from Itachis techniques.
They only train 1 set of genin and thats only far a year or two max. Then their done.
Kakashi was training naruto after 3 years
Gai was still leading TenTen, Neji, and Lee after 3 years etc etc
They keep helping their Genin that they train for a long time it seems.
Prove it. Hes still not as fast as Itachi.
Speed does not equal skill
Prove it. The majority were fighters but a good number werent but thats COMPLETELY irrelevent. The clans stregnth is based on its warriors, bot its civilians so the number of civilians is irrelevent.
How many people do you think are in this clan? (I argued this with my brother last night)
There would have been about 300-500 Uchihas total and probably no more then 1/4 to 1/3 would have been actual ninjas.
So really they probably wouldn't have had more then about 100-120ninjas max and civilians would have outnumbered any of their fighting force.
If he did it stealthly, noone would have even known they were attacked which they did
And yet it hardly seemed like many people reacted to his attack except to run around screaming.
I know it sprays, but look at how its spllattered.
Look alot like footprints
Madara didint get slaughtered. He was defeated yes but thats unimportnat. The clans stregnth was equal but the leaders of senju were better leaders.
The Senju won the whole thing. This Kinda means that overall the Senju were better.

[MinatoNamikaze]

No remember they needed Naruto to be the last one because of the Nine Tails needing to be the last one extracted.

No they needed to eztract it from him last but they coul dhave captured him and kept him captive. Kisame and Itahci had that same debate

They are the same as other ANBU. the only difference is that they are loyal to Danzou.
They are still ANBU

They are different ANBU class

Kakashi was training naruto after 3 years
Gai was still leading TenTen, Neji, and Lee after 3 years etc etc
They keep helping their Genin that they train for a long time it seems.

But as kakahsi said its not a master - pupil realtionship, they are just on the same squad.

How many people do you think are in this clan? (I argued this with my brother last night)
There would have been about 300-500 Uchihas total and probably no more then 1/4 to 1/3 would have been actual ninjas.
So really they probably wouldn't have had more then about 100-120ninjas max and civilians would have outnumbered any of their fighting force.

Prove this!! Theres absolutly nothign to back this up:confused: Most of them woul dhave been ninja. I would say 1/4 were civilians.

And yet it hardly seemed like many people reacted to his attack except to run around screaming.

Prove it. There are shuriken everywhere. Do you honestly beleive these were all Itachi's

Look alot like footprints

They actually look like dragging marks meanign Itachi had to bring them there. Besides if they were footprints, it helps my point by showing that they werent just killed in their sleep.

The Senju won the whole thing. This Kinda means that overall the Senju were better.


They took over politically not physically. Uchiha = Senju. There is ample proof of people saying this in Manga. Dont make me get all the pages for you. There all in Madara's explanation. Besides who outlived who?? Before the massacre and even after it, where are is the Senju clan?? Minus some hokages, there are none unlike uchiha

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

No they needed to eztract it from him last but they coul dhave captured him and kept him captive. Kisame and Itahci had that same debate
Capturing him would have been more trouble then it was worth at the time since they then would have had to beat off rescue attempts so it was easier to leave Naruto alone.
They are different ANBU class
There are only two kinds of ANBU.
ANBU and ANBU captains.
Root are only different to other ANBU in that they obey Danzou instead of the Hokage and not in terms of skill or organisation (Heck even Tsunade used ANBU root for ANBU Missions remember).
But as kakahsi said its not a master - pupil realtionship, they are just on the same squad.
Kakashi was still helping Naruto train however........just like a teacher.
Prove this!! Theres absolutly nothign to back this up:confused: Most of them woul dhave been ninja. I would say 1/4 were civilians.
Logic.
Look at what a clan is.......how many people are in it and ask yourself if any group could support 3/4 of their populations as soldiers.
Prove it. There are shuriken everywhere. Do you honestly beleive these were all Itachi's
How many tho. there are like 10-15 Kunai and shuriken scattered around, many are stuck in walls and scattered randomly around the streets. this doesn't looked like an organized battle or resistance...scattered weapons just means they were dropped or blindly thrown.
They actually look like dragging marks meanign Itachi had to bring them there. Besides if they were footprints, it helps my point by showing that they werent just killed in their sleep.
No bloody footprints just means Itachi stepped in blood. They are blood splatters from slash marks and footprints. Besides f they were drag marks then it means that the parents were killed quite easily as there are no signs of a struggle at all especially from Itachis father who was the Uchiha's head ninja. ANd there are only bloody marks around the beds meaning that is where they were killed and if dragged it was to pile them on top of each other.
They took over politically not physically. Uchiha = Senju. There is ample proof of people saying this in Manga.
they took over Politically cos they won militaristically.
Dont make me get all the pages for you.
Please get them
There all in Madara's explanation.
The Ex head of the Uchiha's who conveniently has a story for Sasuke about how the Uchiha were oppressed.
Besides who outlived who??
Irrelevant. Shodaime died of Old age while Madara simply is alive because he has prolonged it. Remember Shodaime whupped Madara's rear
Before the massacre and even after it, where are is the Senju clan?? Minus some hokages, there are none unlike uchiha
Unknown. All we know is that the Senju were hokages and nothing else is currently known about the size of their clan. However remember Madara still alludes to the Senju being quite strong and influential

[MinatoNamikaze]

Capturing him would have been more trouble then it was worth at the time since they then would have had to beat off rescue attempts so it was easier to leave Naruto alone.

Then why did they try to capture him at the begining of the series?? If they wanted to they could have

There are only two kinds of ANBU.
ANBU and ANBU captains.
Root are only different to other ANBU in that they obey Danzou instead of the Hokage and not in terms of skill or organisation (Heck even Tsunade used ANBU root for ANBU Missions remember).

I dont remember Tsunade using ANBU root. It may have happened i judt dont remember. However this is like comparing a candian special forces soldier against an American one. Sure their both special forces, but their loyal to different people. They have completely different mentalities and different training. They are completely different.

Kakashi was still helping Naruto train however........just like a teacher.

So hes helping him. Kakashi is no longer Narutos sensei like he was at the begining. Its like the Asuma team sent to kill kakuzu and Hidan. Asuma wasnt their sensei, he was just the teams captain because he was a jounin.

Logic.
Look at what a clan is.......how many people are in it and ask yourself if any group could support 3/4 of their populations as soldiers.

Oh no my friend, if im not allowed to use logic on this site neither are you. Besides its not logical to think 3/4 of a WARRIOR CLAN are CIVILIANS:lol: 3/4 of them would have been warriors not civilians.

How many tho. there are like 10-15 Kunai and shuriken scattered around, many are stuck in walls and scattered randomly around the streets. this doesn't looked like an organized battle or resistance...scattered weapons just means they were dropped or blindly thrown.

10-15 in two little parts of the town. I never said it had to be organized, but all the fighting uchiha would have attacked at once and tried to overwhelm Itachi. Have you ever watched the anime? Cause thats where your proof is.

No bloody footprints just means Itachi stepped in blood. They are blood splatters from slash marks and footprints. Besides f they were drag marks then it means that the parents were killed quite easily as there are no signs of a struggle at all especially from Itachis father who was the Uchiha's head ninja. ANd there are only bloody marks around the beds meaning that is where they were killed and if dragged it was to pile them on top of each other.

No im talking about the splatter marks close to sasuke. They could only get their if Itachi sword went right through and cut their heads off and becuase it didnt, that was from a battle.

they took over Politically cos they won militaristically.

They did not win militaristically. They signed a truce and were working together. Madara was the only uchiha who fought against it. It was a political and social take over as is dippicted in the manga.

Please get them

Im not wasting my time doing that. I know you know quite well what im talking about. Reread chapters 398 - 403. Its written in plain english there. :D

The Ex head of the Uchiha's who conveniently has a story for Sasuke about how the Uchiha were oppressed.

So youre saying the whole thing was made up. Mind proving that with conflicting evidence from the manga. Possibly someone saying something else??

Irrelevant. Shodaime died of Old age while Madara simply is alive because he has prolonged it. Remember Shodaime whupped Madara's rear

Im talking about the clans. Where is the Senju? Uchiha were still alive and well but weve never seen the Senju clan.

Unknown. All we know is that the Senju were hokages and nothing else is currently known about the size of their clan. However remember Madara still alludes to the Senju being quite strong and influential.


Where does he illude to that????

[Muffin]

Then why did they try to capture him at the begining of the series?? If they wanted to they could have
Jiraiya stopped them.


I dont remember Tsunade using ANBU root. It may have happened i judt dont remember. However this is like comparing a candian special forces soldier against an American one. Sure their both special forces, but their loyal to different people. They have completely different mentalities and different training. They are completely different.
No it's nothing like that. They're from the same country. They're Anbu. They're picked by different leaders. That is the only difference.


So hes helping him. Kakashi is no longer Narutos sensei like he was at the begining. Its like the Asuma team sent to kill kakuzu and Hidan. Asuma wasnt their sensei, he was just the teams captain because he was a jounin.
This is becoming quite irrelevant in this topic.


Oh no my friend, if im not allowed to use logic on this site neither are you. Besides its not logical to think 3/4 of a WARRIOR CLAN are CIVILIANS:lol: 3/4 of them would have been warriors not civilians.
They weren't a large clan. Most Uchiha never awoke their Sharingan. They couldn't have been very good warriors.


10-15 in two little parts of the town. I never said it had to be organized, but all the fighting uchiha would have attacked at once and tried to overwhelm Itachi. Have you ever watched the anime? Cause thats where your proof is.
They wouldn't have attacked at once. They didn't know an attack was taking place. It's not like Itachi's going to stroll up to a group of fighters and attack them head on. Anime is also not proof in the manga section.


No im talking about the splatter marks close to sasuke. They could only get their if Itachi sword went right through and cut their heads off and becuase it didnt, that was from a battle.
Or it could've been from the knife going into the flesh and slashing out. Try it sometime you might be amazed that blood sprays.


They did not win militaristically. They signed a truce and were working together. Madara was the only uchiha who fought against it. It was a political and social take over as is dippicted in the manga.
They won because the Uchiha were tired of having their ass handed to them all the time.



So youre saying the whole thing was made up. Mind proving that with conflicting evidence from the manga. Possibly someone saying something else??
Jiraiya says Madara was responsible for the Kyuubi attack. Madara said he didn't. There's your conflicting evidence.


Im talking about the clans. Where is the Senju? Uchiha were still alive and well but weve never seen the Senju clan.
They picked up their stuff and flew away with the fairies. What the hell are you trying to say that the Uchiha are better than them because they're still around but have never had a Uchiha as Hokage.



Where does he illude to that????

In his entire speech about how Uchiha are being oppressed by the Senju.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Jiraiya stopped them.

Thats not my point. If they couldnt tkae him yet, they wouldnt have bothered putting themsleves in danger.

No it's nothing like that. They're from the same country. They're Anbu. They're picked by different leaders. That is the only difference.

Then why the different name????


This is becoming quite irrelevant in this topic.

lol ya I have to agree :D :lol:

They weren't a large clan. Most Uchiha never awoke their Sharingan. They couldn't have been very good warriors.

Couldnt have been good warriors :lmao: :lmao: :lol: :lmao: :lmao: Do you think before you post? Clans are what make a country powerful as is said in the manga. If clans are weak they wouldnt have such an impact. And since they do and Uchiha and Senju are the strongest clans ever, that means Uchiha are very powerful

They wouldn't have attacked at once. They didn't know an attack was taking place. It's not like Itachi's going to stroll up to a group of fighters and attack them head on. Anime is also not proof in the manga section.

By "at once" I was implying that they all would have attacked constantly. They would have tried to overwhelm them.

And how did I know you were going to use that Anime is not proof in Manga. As hitefang prooved in another thread, Kishi talks to the Anime crew. If something that important was screwed up it could have major consequences later on in the series. Minus the filler episodes everything that happens in Anime is factual. I know your still going to deny this to help your side of the debate, but its a fact :D


Or it could've been from the knife going into the flesh and slashing out. Try it sometime you might be amazed that blood sprays.

Look at where the blood splater is. Its directly in front of them. For thta to get there the sword would have had to go right through the front of their necks which i didnt.

They won because the Uchiha were tired of having their ass handed to them all the time.

Oh ya that the reason :susp:


Jiraiya says Madara was responsible for the Kyuubi attack. Madara said he didn't. There's your conflicting evidence.

I meant conflicting evidence that the Senju>Uchiha


They picked up their stuff and flew away with the fairies. What the hell are you trying to say that the Uchiha are better than them because they're still around but have never had a Uchiha as Hokage.

Uchiha never became hokage because once the 1st got in, they werent going to let an Uchiha in cause then the Senju would have been discriminated against.

In his entire speech about how Uchiha are being oppressed by the Senju.

They were oppresed because Senju was Hokage. They werent any weaker they were just politically out matched

[Muffin]

Thats not my point. If they couldnt tkae him yet, they wouldnt have bothered putting themsleves in danger.
They couldn't take him because Jiraiya showed up. No use getting killed over something that can wait.


Then why the different name????
Different leaders.


Couldnt have been good warriors :lmao: :lmao: :lol: :lmao: :lmao: Do you think before you post? Clans are what make a country powerful as is said in the manga. If clans are weak they wouldnt have such an impact. And since they do and Uchiha and Senju are the strongest clans ever, that means Uchiha are very powerful
Amazingly enough, civilians don't make great warriors. A Uchiha without Sharingan is logically alot weaker than one with Sharingan. Not many ever awoke their Sharingan. So not many were strong fighters.


By "at once" I was implying that they all would have attacked constantly. They would have tried to overwhelm them.

Or Madara could have just killed them. You don't know if they attacked constantly. Itachi couldn't have made it past Anbu with hasn't been contradicted yet. There's no way they attacked him one after another. It was a silent cull.

And how did I know you were going to use that Anime is not proof in Manga. As hitefang prooved in another thread, Kishi talks to the Anime crew. If something that important was screwed up it could have major consequences later on in the series. Minus the filler episodes everything that happens in Anime is factual. I know your still going to deny this to help your side of the debate, but its a fact :D

Read rule 13 in the battledome.



Look at where the blood splater is. Its directly in front of them. For thta to get there the sword would have had to go right through the front of their necks which i didnt.
From slashing his throat. When you slash someone's throat it has to come out from their neck when the artery is cut it tends to spray, from the way he hunched over it could have sprayed in front of Itachi.



I meant conflicting evidence that the Senju>Uchiha
There isn't any. The Senju were better.



Uchiha never became hokage because once the 1st got in, they werent going to let an Uchiha in cause then the Senju would have been discriminated against.
They weren't hokage because there was always someone better. Hashirama was the strongest at the time, Tobirama was the strongest at his, Hiruzen at his etc. etc.


They were oppresed because Senju was Hokage. They werent any weaker they were just politically out matched

I was telling you where Madara said the Senju were strong and influential.

[Smiley]

They couldn't take him because Jiraiya showed up. No use getting killed over something that can wait.

http://www.urakai.com/ndb3/038-039.png

Read the "As Akatsuki" part. Itachi's intention was never to capture Naruto in first place.

[MinatoNamikaze]

They couldn't take him because Jiraiya showed up. No use getting killed over something that can wait.

Thanks for the back up here smiley


Different leaders.

Different organization, different memebrs, different missions... What is similar????


Amazingly enough, civilians don't make great warriors. A Uchiha without Sharingan is logically alot weaker than one with Sharingan. Not many ever awoke their Sharingan. So not many were strong fighters.

:facepalm: Clans were based on their fighting members. The number of civilians is completly IRRELEVENT. If a clan is strong, they are strong. Regardless of how many civilains there are. I know its difficult, but read it over a few times and try your best to understand that fact :p



Or Madara could have just killed them. You don't know if they attacked constantly. Itachi couldn't have made it past Anbu with hasn't been contradicted yet. There's no way they attacked him one after another. It was a silent cull.

You keep saying this. What do you mean by couldnt get passed ANBU???? I have no idea where your getting that from. ANBU has nothign to do with this...


Read rule 13 in the battledome.

I dont care about the rules. Im telling you the way it really is. Anime's stroy line is accurate. The only things that cant be confirmed as factual are the fillers, although thye can tbe too much of a stretch.


From slashing his throat. When you slash someone's throat it has to come out from their neck when the artery is cut it tends to spray, from the way he hunched over it could have sprayed in front of Itachi.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Please look where the blood splatter is. You cant get blood there if a neck is in the way, unless you cut all the way through which Itachi didnt.


There isn't any. The Senju were better.

Opinion, not factual. Maybe in you rlitle reality it is, but in our reality Senju = Uchiha (before the massacre :p )

They weren't hokage because there was always someone better. Hashirama was the strongest at the time, Tobirama was the strongest at his, Hiruzen at his etc. etc.

We dont know of any Uchiha leader after Madara. Besides who chooses Hokage? Elders nad Hokage choose. They are both loyal to SENJU. DO you honestly believe they would elect an UCHIHA:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:



I was telling you where Madara said the Senju were strong and influential

Strong, not stronger.

"We were the only ones who were a match for Senju. If one country hired Senju their enemies hired Uchiha" Ya Senju dominated Uchiha for sure. :susp:

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Different organization, different memebrs, different missions... What is similar????
ANBUand Anbu Root
Different Organizations?-They are both the same organization ie ANBU
Different members?-Well DUH! Thats like saying someone can't be a republican and a democrat at the same time of course they are going to have different member but then that means nothing
Different missions?-Prove it........show me where it says ANBU root are given different missions to non root ANBU

:facepalm: Clans were based on their fighting members. The number of civilians is completly IRRELEVENT. If a clan is strong, they are strong. Regardless of how many civilains there are. I know its difficult, but read it over a few times and try your best to understand that fact :p
Ok then lets break it down.............
Standard male female distribution 50-50 (Roughly) this means that the clan would be roughly half male and half female.
Now lets look to the fighters. In the Show when shown the ninjas and the ninja academys girls make up a low proportion of all the total students. And throughout the show there were no female Uchiha shinobi shown but we will concede that some probably were. Probably no more then a third of the women as a max value.
now we also know that not all men would be Shinobi either so we will say they are very military minded and say 2/3rds of the men would be in the Uchiha Military.
Now we look at a clan You still have at sort of a very optimistic max values for a shinobi only half your clan as warriors. not 3/4 and probably alot less then 1/2
Now you can break it down even more. How many would be Genin and Chuuni level Shinobi? About 90-95 percent.
So all up they would have had very few Jounin and some Chunina nad genin forming their main bulk
Even at the most optimistic estimates using the Narutoverse statistics of Shinobi as men and women the Uchiha's would probably have had more civilians then Shinobi.

Now in a fight as shown the priority of the clan would have been protecting civlians first in the event of an attack getting them somewhere safe etc.
Now you don't know who or where your opponent is that is going to be a huge burden for the uchiha fighters needing to protect civilians and fight an unknown enemy in an unknown place. So now you see why Civilians are important.

I dont care about the rules. Im telling you the way it really is. Anime's stroy line is accurate. The only things that cant be confirmed as factual are the fillers, although thye can tbe too much of a stretch.
Lol actually that is wrong. look at the anime where oro and th the 3rd fight. In the Anime the Second Hokage performs a genjutsu while in the Manga the Genjutsu was performed by the First Hokage. The Manga and the Anime are different at times.

:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Please look where the blood splatter is. You cant get blood there if a neck is in the way, unless you cut all the way through which Itachi didnt.
You can get blood out of alot of place especially in an anime. One it looks like it was slashed there and secondly that amount of blood is found in alot of place in the human body and not just the neck.

Opinion, not factual. Maybe in you rlitle reality it is, but in our reality Senju = Uchiha (before the massacre :p )
No proof. If the Uchia were the same then why did the Senju rule them?

We dont know of any Uchiha leader after Madara. Besides who chooses Hokage? Elders nad Hokage choose. They are both loyal to SENJU. DO you honestly believe they would elect an UCHIHA:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
Hokages are chosen by consensus as to who the best leader would be,

Strong, not stronger.

"We were the only ones who were a match for Senju. If one country hired Senju their enemies hired Uchiha" Ya Senju dominated Uchiha for sure. :susp:
Look at the rest. He says the Senju were respected and feared as the BEST
The Uchiha's could match them in battle but the Senju were still the best.

[MinatoNamikaze]

ANBUand Anbu Root
Different Organizations?-They are both the same organization ie ANBU
Different members?-Well DUH! Thats like saying someone can't be a republican and a democrat at the same time of course they are going to have different member but then that means nothing
Different missions?-Prove it........show me where it says ANBU root are given different missions to non root ANBU

Its exactly like Csor and JTF2 in Canada. Both are special forces but are trained different and used differently.

IDK how this fits into our debate so I just say we drop it:xd: :D

Ok then lets break it down.............
Standard male female distribution 50-50 (Roughly) this means that the clan would be roughly half male and half female.
Now lets look to the fighters. In the Show when shown the ninjas and the ninja academys girls make up a low proportion of all the total students. And throughout the show there were no female Uchiha shinobi shown but we will concede that some probably were. Probably no more then a third of the women as a max value.
now we also know that not all men would be Shinobi either so we will say they are very military minded and say 2/3rds of the men would be in the Uchiha Military.
Now we look at a clan You still have at sort of a very optimistic max values for a shinobi only half your clan as warriors. not 3/4 and probably alot less then 1/2
Now you can break it down even more. How many would be Genin and Chuuni level Shinobi? About 90-95 percent.
So all up they would have had very few Jounin and some Chunina nad genin forming their main bulk
Even at the most optimistic estimates using the Narutoverse statistics of Shinobi as men and women the Uchiha's would probably have had more civilians then Shinobi.

Thats a good breakdown, but thats not my point. Its hard ot get my point across on the computer. A clan is VERY powerful. All clans are. It doesnt matter how many fighters there are, they are still just as powerful. Think of it this way. 50 uchiha fight 100 Hyuga shinobi. Say the 50 Uchihas win, it means they are extremely powerful. Numbers dont matter, its the end results that count. Even if you say there are only 50 shinobi warriors in the uchiha, killing them all is still a HUGE feat, because they are still as strong as 100 Hyuga. Size doesnt matter, how they do in battle does. Thats what im trying to explain.

Now in a fight as shown the priority of the clan would have been protecting civlians first in the event of an attack getting them somewhere safe etc.
Now you don't know who or where your opponent is that is going to be a huge burden for the uchiha fighters needing to protect civilians and fight an unknown enemy in an unknown place. So now you see why Civilians are important.

No fighting uchiha would be responsible for fighting the enemy not helping civilians, especially if they are so few in numbers as you make out to be.

Lol actually that is wrong. look at the anime where oro and th the 3rd fight. In the Anime the Second Hokage performs a genjutsu while in the Manga the Genjutsu was performed by the First Hokage. The Manga and the Anime are different at times.

But thats my point, extrememly minor details are changed but nothing as big as what were talking about.

You can get blood out of alot of place especially in an anime. One it looks like it was slashed there and secondly that amount of blood is found in alot of place in the human body and not just the neck.

But fo rblood to get infront of the body the sword has to cut all the way through which it didnt.

Lets just srop it cause its useless to debate this anymore :D

No proof. If the Uchia were the same then why did the Senju rule them?

:facepalm: :facepalm: "We were the only ones who were a match for Senju. If one country hired Senju their enemies hired Uchiha" Ya Senju dominated Uchiha for sure. If they dominated uchiha wouldnt be able to keep fighting them and Senju wouldnt have made a peacetreaty, they would have just killed them.

Hokages are chosen by consensus as to who the best leader would be,

False, they are chosen by the prior hokage.

Look at the rest. He says the Senju were respected and feared as the BEST
The Uchiha's could match them in battle but the Senju were still the best

Bubt if you keep reading, Uchiha rose to that level, Hence a peacetreaty was made. If Senju>Uchiha do you honestly beleive Senju would have bothered making a treay??? No they woudl have just killed uchiha.


P.S. Merry Christmas :D :D :lol:

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Thats a good breakdown, but thats not my point. Its hard ot get my point across on the computer. A clan is VERY powerful. All clans are. It doesnt matter how many fighters there are, they are still just as powerful. Think of it this way. 50 uchiha fight 100 Hyuga shinobi. Say the 50 Uchihas win, it means they are extremely powerful. Numbers dont matter, its the end results that count. Even if you say there are only 50 shinobi warriors in the uchiha, killing them all is still a HUGE feat, because they are still as strong as 100 Hyuga. Size doesnt matter, how they do in battle does. Thats what im trying to explain.
It is a balance between Quality and Quantity is what you are saying. But the problem is that the less Shinobi they had then the less opponents that itachi would have had to face who had any fighting experience. Not only that but the amount of Shinobi they had would affect how much ground they could cover to guard things and how many they could lose before they they started to lose their effectiveness.
I mean yes say 50uchiha could match 100 Hyuuga's. But then if they both lost 10 guys then that means that the overall combat ability of the uchiha group would be reduced more by the Loss then the hyuuga group who could more easily afford those losses due to their higher numbers.
No fighting uchiha would be responsible for fighting the enemy not helping civilians, especially if they are so few in numbers as you make out to be.
that would be suicidal. There is not much point in winning a battle if all your women and children are killed while you run around trying to find an enemy.
But thats my point, extrememly minor details are changed but nothing as big as what were talking about.
but they are large details in the end. It speaks to the comnbat abilities etc of the characters when stuff gets added or removed in translation.
But fo rblood to get infront of the body the sword has to cut all the way through which it didnt.No it could be caused by a blade slashing across the body
:facepalm: :facepalm: "We were the only ones who were a match for Senju. If one country hired Senju their enemies hired Uchiha" Ya Senju dominated Uchiha for sure. If they dominated uchiha wouldnt be able to keep fighting them and Senju wouldnt have made a peacetreaty, they would have just killed them.
Match not beat. And notice that was when they were hired to fight each other. In terms of individual warriors the uchiha were the only ones who could match them. Overall though the Senju were stronger which is why the Uchiha's became subservient to them.
False, they are chosen by the prior hokage.
Where does it say that? And that wasn't the case with the Fifth was it?
Bubt if you keep reading, Uchiha rose to that level, Hence a peacetreaty was made. If Senju>Uchiha do you honestly beleive Senju would have bothered making a treay??? No they woudl have just killed uchiha.
Well think about it. How devastating would it have been to the Senjus ultiamte strength to eradicate a clan as strong as the uchiha's. Why waste the men when you can get them fighting for you?
P.S. Merry Christmas :D :D :lol:
:^^: :^^: Same to you

[Muffin]

Different organization, different memebrs, different missions... What is similar????
The fact they're still Anbu is what is similar.



:facepalm: Clans were based on their fighting members. The number of civilians is completly IRRELEVENT. If a clan is strong, they are strong. Regardless of how many civilains there are. I know its difficult, but read it over a few times and try your best to understand that fact :p
The number of civilians is not irrelevant because it would mean less fighters for a 1vs1 specialist to fight, it is very important.




You keep saying this. What do you mean by couldnt get passed ANBU???? I have no idea where your getting that from. ANBU has nothign to do with this...
Sasuke himself said Itachi could not make it past Anbu without Madara's help. Itachi has no chance in this battle to get very far at all against some of the strongest shinobi to ever live.



I dont care about the rules. Im telling you the way it really is. Anime's stroy line is accurate. The only things that cant be confirmed as factual are the fillers, although thye can tbe too much of a stretch.
You must be very bold to tell a moderator you don't care about the rules :rolleyes:

The rule states that in the manga section only manga panels are proof. Bringing up the anime and calling it proof is against the rules and that i can give infractions for it.



:facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm: Please look where the blood splatter is. You cant get blood there if a neck is in the way, unless you cut all the way through which Itachi didnt.
You've obviously never seen an actual murder scene have you? Blood sprays when you cut an artery Itachi's dad only needed to get struck and fall over to spray blood there.



Opinion, not factual. Maybe in you rlitle reality it is, but in our reality Senju = Uchiha (before the massacre :p )
It is a fact. The Uchiha's strongest member to ever live lost to a Senju.


We dont know of any Uchiha leader after Madara. Besides who chooses Hokage? Elders nad Hokage choose. They are both loyal to SENJU. DO you honestly believe they would elect an UCHIHA:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:
We know Itachi's father. Whom was nothing compared to the 3rd.




Strong, not stronger.

"We were the only ones who were a match for Senju. If one country hired Senju their enemies hired Uchiha" Ya Senju dominated Uchiha for sure. :susp:

They hired Uchiha because the Senju were already taken.

[MinatoNamikaze]

It is a balance between Quality and Quantity is what you are saying. But the problem is that the less Shinobi they had then the less opponents that itachi would have had to face who had any fighting experience. Not only that but the amount of Shinobi they had would affect how much ground they could cover to guard things and how many they could lose before they they started to lose their effectiveness.
I mean yes say 50uchiha could match 100 Hyuuga's. But then if they both lost 10 guys then that means that the overall combat ability of the uchiha group would be reduced more by the Loss then the hyuuga group who could more easily afford those losses due to their higher numbers.

Heres what Im trying to say. Minato could take out 50 shinobi easily single handedly. That means he has the same battle stregnth of at least 50 guys, so whether you fight Minato or 50 shinobi, its still like fighting the same opponent.

that would be suicidal. There is not much point in winning a battle if all your women and children are killed while you run around trying to find an enemy.

But by attacking the TWO man team you prevent them from attacking the civilians. Unlike in Sands invasion, ther were only 2 targets, not hundreds to worry about. 2 people cant simply slip by everyone to the Civilians.

but they are large details in the end. It speaks to the comnbat abilities etc of the characters when stuff gets added or removed in translation.

Can you name one change between Anime and Manga htat has ever made a difference in the series?? Why is that. Becuase for the most part, Anime is the same as the manga.

No it could be caused by a blade slashing across the body

But hte blade would have had to be on sasukes side of the body. Anyway im doen arguing this pointles fact :D

Match not beat. And notice that was when they were hired to fight each other. In terms of individual warriors the uchiha were the only ones who could match them. Overall though the Senju were stronger which is why the Uchiha's became subservient to them.

I never said Uchiha>Senju. Uchiha became subservent to Senju becuase the First was Hokage. Its like the democrats and republicans. Both are relatively equal but while democrats are in, Republican ideas and goals are shoved under the rug. The same is true Vise-Versa

Where does it say that? And that wasn't the case with the Fifth was it?

1st chose the 2nd. 1st and 2nd chose 3rd. 3rd chose 4th. Elders chose 5th. I said Hokages and the Leders choose the Hokage. Its not like our democracies. The people dont vote on who is to become Hokage.

Well think about it. How devastating would it have been to the Senjus ultiamte strength to eradicate a clan as strong as the uchiha's. Why waste the men when you can get them fighting for you?

Well they were fighting on a regular basis anyway. If Senju were stronger, they would have beaten Uchiha on one of the many occasions they did battle, which they did not

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Heres what Im trying to say. Minato could take out 50 shinobi easily single handedly. That means he has the same battle stregnth of at least 50 guys, so whether you fight Minato or 50 shinobi, its still like fighting the same opponent.
true but then say if Minato lost an arm then his combatr ability would drop correct.
While if one of those Fifty lost an arm their combat efficientcy would be virtually the same.
Remember it is Quality vs Quantity. Sure on his own he may be stronger but he is also more vunerable to losses.
But by attacking the TWO man team you prevent them from attacking the civilians. Unlike in Sands invasion, ther were only 2 targets, not hundreds to worry about. 2 people cant simply slip by everyone to the Civilians.
They could If you didn't know they were the enemy. Remember they would have thought itachi was on their side. They would not have immediately lept out of bed and gone geez Itachi is attacking us. No they would not have Known who was attacking them until it was too late.
Can you name one change between Anime and Manga htat has ever made a difference in the series?? Why is that. Becuase for the most part, Anime is the same as the manga.
Many changes are small but they can mean alot.
Some of it are bits added or removed because they don't quite work in an anime format but that at times can change the overall feel of a certain part.
But hte blade would have had to be on sasukes side of the body. Anyway im doen arguing this pointles fact :D
No way to prove where the blade was when it cut im
I never said Uchiha>Senju. Uchiha became subservent to Senju becuase the First was Hokage. Its like the democrats and republicans. Both are relatively equal but while democrats are in, Republican ideas and goals are shoved under the rug. The same is true Vise-Versa
no because republicans and democrats are supposed to be political equals. the uchihas became virtual servant clan to the Senju with the Senju in the place of power
1st chose the 2nd. 1st and 2nd chose 3rd. 3rd chose 4th. Elders chose 5th. I said Hokages and the Leders choose the Hokage. Its not like our democracies. The people dont vote on who is to become Hokage.
Where is the proof that the first chose the second?or the third? all we know is that the second succeeded his brother and then the third and forth cam after.
Well they were fighting on a regular basis anyway. If Senju were stronger, they would have beaten Uchiha on one of the many occasions they did battle, which they did not
It wasn't like the two gathered all their warriors and attacked the other in a clan battle but that they faced each other as hired fighters for people and that is how they fought each other. lots of small battles fought over a long period of time.

[MinatoNamikaze]

true but then say if Minato lost an arm then his combatr ability would drop correct.
While if one of those Fifty lost an arm their combat efficientcy would be virtually the same.
Remember it is Quality vs Quantity. Sure on his own he may be stronger but he is also more vunerable to losses.

Ok your missing my point. The most powerful clan is still the most powerful clan. It doesnt matter how many memebrs are shinobi they are still the strongest clan out there.

They could If you didn't know they were the enemy. Remember they would have thought itachi was on their side. They would not have immediately lept out of bed and gone geez Itachi is attacking us. No they would not have Known who was attacking them until it was too late.

Why woudl it be so hard to figure out Itachis attacking them. If hes running at them with a sword and starts cutting people down, I think people would clue in pretty bo=loody quickly.

Many changes are small but they can mean alot.
Some of it are bits added or removed because they don't quite work in an anime format but that at times can change the overall feel of a certain part.

Name one change that has had a major effect on the story line of the anime please :susp: :D :D

No way to prove where the blade was when it cut im

:facepalm: wow the blade was behind them, hence Itachi was standing behind them :susp:

no because republicans and democrats are supposed to be political equals. the uchihas became virtual servant clan to the Senju with the Senju in the place of power

Yes Senju took over, but that doesnt mean Uchiha are any less powerful. If Senju were so much better, why didint they wipe out the Uchiha on one of the many occasions thye met in battle???

Where is the proof that the first chose the second?or the third? all we know is that the second succeeded his brother and then the third and forth cam after.

Ok well theres no proof the First chose the second, but the first and second definetly chose the third, who in turn chose the 4th. Thats COMMON KNOWLEDGE

It wasn't like the two gathered all their warriors and attacked the other in a clan battle but that they faced each other as hired fighters for people and that is how they fought each other. lots of small battles fought over a long period of time.

Prove it?? The peopel who hired them wanted a battle. All fighting uchiha would have fought ALL fighting Senju. If they dint bring everyone they would have been destroyed.:susp:

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Ok your missing my point. The most powerful clan is still the most powerful clan. It doesnt matter how many memebrs are shinobi they are still the strongest clan out there.
but when it comes to losses and figting ability then it does make a difference. it would make a difference to how many Itachi had to fight and how much effort he needed to take out each fighter.
Why woudl it be so hard to figure out Itachis attacking them. If hes running at them with a sword and starts cutting people down, I think people would clue in pretty bo=loody quickly.
But what if Itachi walks towards you with no weapon in his hand and a big smile on your face giving no indication that as soon as he reaches you he is going to pull out a weapon and kill you. Remember especially in the early stages wouldn't have thought they would be attacked by someone like itachi who was one of them. I doubt many would have had any real reason to suspect itachi until it was too late.
Name one change that has had a major effect on the story line of the anime please :susp: :D :D
Gaara Vs Kimimaru. Read the Manga and watch the anime. I ended up in a huge argument about who really won that battle and if Kimimaru wasn't sick would he have won. If you go by the manga then you get a different outcome then if you watch the anime.
:facepalm: wow the blade was behind them, hence Itachi was standing behind them :susp:
Unproveable. You cannot show that that was where Itachi was standing when he killed them. He could easily have walked around the bodies or the bodies could have landed facing in a different direction when the fell.
Yes Senju took over, but that doesnt mean Uchiha are any less powerful. If Senju were so much better, why didint they wipe out the Uchiha on one of the many occasions thye met in battle???
Why?
Why wipe out the uchiha when you can dominate them and have them fight for you?
Also the total potential losses of wiping out the uchiha clan as a whole might not have been worth the effort.
Just because you can wipe out anouther clan doesn't always mean you should especially when the benefits of leaving them alive (ie:more fighters) out weighs the potential cost of doing so (Ie:the loss of skilled fighters in the battle)
Ok well theres no proof the First chose the second, but the first and second definetly chose the third, who in turn chose the 4th. Thats COMMON KNOWLEDGE
Where is the manga chapter for that?
Prove it?? The peopel who hired them wanted a battle. All fighting uchiha would have fought ALL fighting Senju. If they dint bring everyone they would have been destroyed.:susp:
Unlikely. When you hire shinobi you don't hire entire villages or clans. You hire groups. How many times have you ever seen Konoha hire out 100ninjas to one person?or 50? or 20? or 10?
The biggest we have seen sent as help is 8. (The rescue Gaara team)
Like most ninja contracts and fights they would have been small skirmishes involving 4-5ninja on each side not 400-500.

[MinatoNamikaze]

but when it comes to losses and figting ability then it does make a difference. it would make a difference to how many Itachi had to fight and how much effort he needed to take out each fighter.

But killing 50 skilled ninja or 100 unskilled ninja would stil take the same amount of energy and skill. Its all proportionate

But what if Itachi walks towards you with no weapon in his hand and a big smile on your face giving no indication that as soon as he reaches you he is going to pull out a weapon and kill you. Remember especially in the early stages wouldn't have thought they would be attacked by someone like itachi who was one of them. I doubt many would have had any real reason to suspect itachi until it was too late.

He wouldnt be able to just walk towards them. Uchiha would have been folowwing and fighting him when he moved. Its not like hes going from house to house and killing people when they come to the door without an alarm going up!!!

Gaara Vs Kimimaru. Read the Manga and watch the anime. I ended up in a huge argument about who really won that battle and if Kimimaru wasn't sick would he have won. If you go by the manga then you get a different outcome then if you watch the anime.

Yes but did this have an impact on the actual storyline??? No, becuase its petty and insignifigant.

Unproveable. You cannot show that that was where Itachi was standing when he killed them. He could easily have walked around the bodies or the bodies could have landed facing in a different direction when the fell.

Actually by looking at how the fell (face down) it means they were hit from behind. Also executions are dont from behind not the fornt. Theres the proof.

Why?
Why wipe out the uchiha when you can dominate them and have them fight for you?
Also the total potential losses of wiping out the uchiha clan as a whole might not have been worth the effort.
Just because you can wipe out anouther clan doesn't always mean you should especially when the benefits of leaving them alive (ie:more fighters) out weighs the potential cost of doing so (Ie:the loss of skilled fighters in the battle)

Im talking about in their battles while they were hired by war lords. They were fighting anyway, why couldnt they destroy the Uchiha in any one of those battles!!!!?????

Where is the manga chapter for that?

I dont have time to find the exact pages but thats the way it is. Again please ask someone (say Majin, Muffin, DIY, or Smiley) to confirm this fact. The only one we cant say fro certain is that the 1st chose the 2nd although since there brothers its most likely the case.

Unlikely. When you hire shinobi you don't hire entire villages or clans. You hire groups. How many times have you ever seen Konoha hire out 100ninjas to one person?or 50? or 20? or 10?
The biggest we have seen sent as help is 8. (The rescue Gaara team)
Like most ninja contracts and fights they would have been small skirmishes involving 4-5ninja on each side not 400-500.


There not working ont he same system as villages. War lords hired entire clans to fight wars for them not small little squads to invade others territories!!

[Muffin]

But killing 50 skilled ninja or 100 unskilled ninja would stil take the same amount of energy and skill. Its all proportionate

It's not proportionate. If your fighting style is more geared towards 1vs1 then it's going to be a lot easier with less opponents. That's why Itachi won't last in this battle.



He wouldnt be able to just walk towards them. Uchiha would have been folowwing and fighting him when he moved. Its not like hes going from house to house and killing people when they come to the door without an alarm going up!!!
Why wouldn't he? It's not like he's going to leap into a bunch of people and start attacking. He would need to stay in shadows and use stealth. Something he won't have any of in this battle.


Yes but did this have an impact on the actual storyline??? No, becuase its petty and insignifigant.
Anime has no importance in the manga section. If you don't like it then too bad.


Actually by looking at how the fell (face down) it means they were hit from behind. Also executions are dont from behind not the fornt. Theres the proof.
How do you know how executions are done? There is no predetermined execution. They just kill them, the means don't matter.


Im talking about in their battles while they were hired by war lords. They were fighting anyway, why couldnt they destroy the Uchiha in any one of those battles!!!!?????
Becoming completely irrelevant.


I dont have time to find the exact pages but thats the way it is. Again please ask someone (say Majin, Muffin, DIY, or Smiley) to confirm this fact. The only one we cant say fro certain is that the 1st chose the 2nd although since there brothers its most likely the case.
No way to prove the 1st and 2nd choose the 3rd. We only know they told him when he starts as hokage. The only hokage we know who chose another was when the 3rd chose the 4th.



There not working ont he same system as villages. War lords hired entire clans to fight wars for them not small little squads to invade others territories!!

Senju are better than Uchiha. That's all there is to it.

[MinatoNamikaze]

It's not proportionate. If your fighting style is more geared towards 1vs1 then it's going to be a lot easier with less opponents. That's why Itachi won't last in this battle.

Well if you can only fight 1v1 then it doenst matter if its 10 v 1 or 100 v 1


Why wouldn't he? It's not like he's going to leap into a bunch of people and start attacking. He would need to stay in shadows and use stealth. Something he won't have any of in this battle.

Its not like peopel are attacking one by one. He would be under constant bunbarbment. He woudlnt be able to sneak away and hide in the shadows.

Anime has no importance in the manga section. If you don't like it then too bad.

Its because you know Im right v.v

How do you know how executions are done? There is no predetermined execution. They just kill them, the means don't matter.

Executions are done by the having the person to be executed on their knees and they are either shot and stabbed from behind. COmmon thats common knowledge.

Becoming completely irrelevant.

Yes because youre realizing im right v.v

No way to prove the 1st and 2nd choose the 3rd. We only know they told him when he starts as hokage. The only hokage we know who chose another was when the 3rd chose the 4th.

wow seriously?? :lmao: what do you want to have awhole flashback chapter of the hokages sitting down and saying "lets appoint Sarutobi as the third"


Senju are better than Uchiha. That's all there is to it.

lol well theres a strong argument :lmao: :lmao: :facepalm: :p

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

But killing 50 skilled ninja or 100 unskilled ninja would stil take the same amount of energy and skill. Its all proportionate
No it isn't. You can say it is but but ultimately for what Itachi did It would have been easier for him to take a smaller number of Guys on. Remember some would have been killed without knowing Itachi was a bad guy (Especially right at the start of the attack) and so if he is facing less guys the total effort needed would be significantly less then if he was facing lots of guys.

Well if you can only fight 1v1 then it doenst matter if its 10 v 1 or 100 v 1
Irrelevant.
He wouldnt be able to just walk towards them. Uchiha would have been folowwing and fighting him when he moved.
PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was a Sneak attack, They are not for the most part even going to know they were under attack let alone that it was Itachi attacking them.
Its not like hes going from house to house and killing people when they come to the door without an alarm going up!!!
Itachi sneaks around using his ninja skills to go in windows etc as they sleep or whatever and quickly kill the inhabitants quietly without raising an alarm.
(Note the skill for this kind of stealth would have been handy for an Ex ANBU member) (Note the ANBU are often sent on stealth missions)

Its not like peopel are attacking one by one. He would be under constant bunbarbment. He woudlnt be able to sneak away and hide in the shadows.
Actually itachi probably would have avoided most open confrontations and stuck to places where he could strike without worrying about retaliation
That is common sense.
It is highly doubtful that he would walk down the middle of the street like you seem to suggest.

Yes but did this have an impact on the actual storyline??? No, becuase its petty and insignifigant.
But in arguments like this is does make a difference as it can change certain views and opinions.
Actually by looking at how the fell (face down) it means they were hit from behind. Also executions are dont from behind not the fornt. Theres the proof.
That is some really bad proof.
1/we don't know how they fell
2/There is no set direction for an execution
3/Execution just means he was unarmed and killed while he was helpless.
Executions are done by the having the person to be executed on their knees and they are either shot and stabbed from behind. COmmon thats common knowledge.
Lol then most executions these days are done wrong are they?
There is no set method for an execution.
(Look up the definition of an Execution if you don't believe me)

Im talking about in their battles while they were hired by war lords. They were fighting anyway, why couldnt they destroy the Uchiha in any one of those battles!!!!?????
Proof they were hired by warlords?
Proof those warlords hired entire clans?
There not working ont he same system as villages. War lords hired entire clans to fight wars for them not small little squads to invade others territories!!
Prove it. The fire country hired the Senju who settled their lands and others followed suit but beyond that I don't see any proof that Entire clans were hired.
As for destroyng the Uchiha I have covered this before so see my previous post.

[Muffin]

Well if you can only fight 1v1 then it doenst matter if its 10 v 1 or 100 v 1
Of course it does. It's going to take alot less effort fighting 10 than 100.



Its not like peopel are attacking one by one. He would be under constant bunbarbment. He woudlnt be able to sneak away and hide in the shadows.
They wouldn't have even known Itachi was the one attacking them. He could use his stealth because they're trained in stealth when they're in Anbu.


Its because you know Im right v.v
It's because your breaking the rules. Read rule 13 in the battledome rules. Consider this your warning if you want to keep going.


Executions are done by the having the person to be executed on their knees and they are either shot and stabbed from behind. COmmon thats common knowledge.
Look it up in the dictionary.


Yes because youre realizing im right v.v
Right about what? Uchiha and Senju have nothing to do with an Akatsuki free for all.


wow seriously?? :lmao: what do you want to have awhole flashback chapter of the hokages sitting down and saying "lets appoint Sarutobi as the third"
That would be nice. Until then there's no way to tell who appointed who as Hokage with the exception of the 3rd appointing the 4th.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Of course it does. It's going to take alot less effort fighting 10 than 100.

Not if the 10 are sasuke level ninjas and the 100 are konohamaru level ninjas



They wouldn't have even known Itachi was the one attacking them. He could use his stealth because they're trained in stealth when they're in Anbu.

You can t use stealth for the whole fight. If it was just stealth, HOW WOULD PEOPLE BE IN THE STREETS!!!:facepalm: According to you noone would know he was attacking and people were out just fro fun :lmao:

It's because your breaking the rules. Read rule 13 in the battledome rules. Consider this your warning if you want to keep going.

:lmao: A warning thats funny. Theres nothign you can do to me cause I havent broken any rules. Im just argueing with you that the Anime and the manga are almost identical. If this "warning" is all you can come up with then I guess you have no rebuttle to answer

Look it up in the dictionary.

:facepalm: Watch a movie. When they put POW's on their knees and shoot them in the back, thats called an Execution style murder v.v

Right about what? Uchiha and Senju have nothing to do with an Akatsuki free for all.

Yes well we got off on a tangent. If saying my point is irrelevent is your only rebuttle then i understand :p


That would be nice. Until then there's no way to tell who appointed who as Hokage with the exception of the 3rd appointing the 4th.

Lol wow. Wel I guess we have to assume the third didnt know every tech in Konoha caus ehe never showed it. ANd that Kakashi cant do 1000 jutsu because we havent seen it. Or that the fourth actually cant do Rasengan cause WE HAVENT SEEN IT. Besides, the ELDERS chose the fifth :susp: v.v

[Muffin]

Not if the 10 are sasuke level ninjas and the 100 are konohamaru level ninjas
Don't dis konohamaru fool. He pwned hell realm. Itachi would still run out of chakra before he could even finish all of the 100 ninja's fighting them full force. He also had Madara's help and used stealth tactics. That makes a major difference in the battle. It shows he cannot possibly survive the conditions of this battle.




You can t use stealth for the whole fight. If it was just stealth, HOW WOULD PEOPLE BE IN THE STREETS!!!:facepalm: According to you noone would know he was attacking and people were out just fro fun :lmao:
Prove there even was a fight. There was no alarm, people weren't holding weapons and most of the clan were civilians.

:lmao: A warning thats funny. Theres nothign you can do to me cause I havent broken any rules. Im just argueing with you that the Anime and the manga are almost identical. If this "warning" is all you can come up with then I guess you have no rebuttle to answer

Here let me show you then since you obviously have never even read the rules.

12. In the manga section, manga panels are the only sources that will be accepted as proof. Please refrain from using anything other than the manga panels.

Keep it up and i will begin to hand out infractions.

:facepalm: Watch a movie. When they put POW's on their knees and shoot them in the back, thats called an Execution style murder v.v
Or better yet..Read the dictionary


Yes well we got off on a tangent. If saying my point is irrelevent is your only rebuttle then i understand :p
The senju were better than Uchiha. That's already been a fact proven. They didn't kill off all the Uchiha because the Uchiha would have fled once they started all dying. They also still have children to keep their next generation. It would have just been a waste of time for the Senju to go and hunt down the Uchiha when there's money to be made fighting. Now i hope you can drop this because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.



Lol wow. Wel I guess we have to assume the third didnt know every tech in Konoha caus ehe never showed it. ANd that Kakashi cant do 1000 jutsu because we havent seen it. Or that the fourth actually cant do Rasengan cause WE HAVENT SEEN IT. Besides, the ELDERS chose the fifth :susp: v.v

I don't even believe the third knew every technique in konoha. It's only been implied. As for who chose hokage, it's never even been implied the 1st and 2nd chose the 3rd. As i said the only hokage who chose the next was when the 3rd chose the 4th, the elders aren't hokages.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Not if the 10 are sasuke level ninjas and the 100 are konohamaru level ninjas
Prove that there were that many at those levels.
You can t use stealth for the whole fight. If it was just stealth, HOW WOULD PEOPLE BE IN THE STREETS!!!:facepalm:
Wow.. perhaps Itachi could have i dunno thrown something at them?
Or Itachi could have killed them and then retreated back into cover to avoid pursuit?
Both are aspects of stealth
According to you noone would know he was attacking and people were out just fro fun :lmao:
Initially no-one would have known there was an attack.
It is possible for people to have been outdoors at night
We know at some stage there were some civilians who were running in the street to escape some kind of attack.
Im just argueing with you that the Anime and the manga are almost identical.
they are not. It is the same reason you can't use fillers as evidence. Anything not in the manga no matter how trivial is not evidence
:facepalm: Watch a movie. When they put POW's on their knees and shoot them in the back, thats called an Execution style murder v.v
look in the dictionary.
Here are dictionary definitions of execute
-1. kill as a means of socially sanctioned punishment; "In some states, criminals are executed"
-2. murder in a planned fashion; "The Mafioso who collaborated with the police was executed"
-3.To put to death, especially by carrying out a lawful sentence.
-4. to murder; assassinate.
-5. Too put to death illegally; to kill.

nothing there on a correct way to execute

[MinatoNamikaze]

No it isn't. You can say it is but but ultimately for what Itachi did It would have been easier for him to take a smaller number of Guys on. Remember some would have been killed without knowing Itachi was a bad guy (Especially right at the start of the attack) and so if he is facing less guys the total effort needed would be significantly less then if he was facing lots of guys.

Look what I aid to muffin ^^:rolleyes: .

PROVE IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
It was a Sneak attack, They are not for the most part even going to know they were under attack let alone that it was Itachi attacking them

Itachi sneaks around using his ninja skills to go in windows etc as they sleep or whatever and quickly kill the inhabitants quietly without raising an alarm.
(Note the skill for this kind of stealth would have been handy for an Ex ANBU member) (Note the ANBU are often sent on stealth missions)

Please try to account for the shurikens everywhere, people IN THE STREETS, and the fire burning. v.v

Actually itachi probably would have avoided most open confrontations and stuck to places where he could strike without worrying about retaliation
That is common sense.
It is highly doubtful that he would walk down the middle of the street like you seem to suggest.

He would have to face everyone eventually so avoinding crouded places is pointless.

But in arguments like this is does make a difference as it can change certain views and opinions.

Please name TWO situtations where the manga and anime are entirly different and have effected ones opinon or view

That is some really bad proof.
1/we don't know how they fell

uh idk maybe FACEDOWN :D

2/There is no set direction for an execution
3/Execution just means he was unarmed and killed while he was helpless.

Execution style murder. As I said to Muffin :rolleyes: POW's are put on their knees and shot in the back of the head. Exactly what happened here only Itachi used a nife. Another thin that proves he killed them from behind is the fac tthat HES STANDING BEHIND THEM

Lol then most executions these days are done wrong are they?
There is no set method for an execution.
(Look up the definition of an Execution if you don't believe me)

They dont use bullets in American executions :susp:

Proof they were hired by warlords?
Proof those warlords hired entire clans?

Here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/17/

and here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/02/

If one country hired senju the other hired Uchiha. They didnt say a squad of each they said the whole thing

Prove it. The fire country hired the Senju who settled their lands and others followed suit but beyond that I don't see any proof that Entire clans were hired.
As for destroyng the Uchiha I have covered this before so see my previous post

If they were so much stronger, why didnt they kill them during their already existing battle

[MinatoNamikaze]

Don't dis konohamaru fool. He pwned hell realm. Itachi would still run out of chakra before he could even finish all of the 100 ninja's fighting them full force. He also had Madara's help and used stealth tactics. That makes a major difference in the battle. It shows he cannot possibly survive the conditions of this battle.

wow youre saying Itachi couldnt beat 100 Konohamarus:lmao:

Prove there even was a fight. There was no alarm, people weren't holding weapons and most of the clan were civilians.

hmm idk maybe people in the streets, shurikens everywhere, fire burning. Anything else???

Here let me show you then since you obviously have never even read the rules.

12. In the manga section, manga panels are the only sources that will be accepted as proof. Please refrain from using anything other than the manga panels.

Keep it up and i will begin to hand out infractions.

You cant give me an infraction without abusing your power. I only used 1 anime reference and I have refrained from doing so since. I am merely argueing with you about the rule. So im not actually breaking any right now :p :p Course feel free to give me an infraction and see what happens

Or better yet..Read the dictionary

Finda dictionary with the definition of EXECUTION STYLE MURDER. Or better yet, watch a friggin movie about POW's.

The senju were better than Uchiha. That's already been a fact proven. They didn't kill off all the Uchiha because the Uchiha would have fled once they started all dying. They also still have children to keep their next generation. It would have just been a waste of time for the Senju to go and hunt down the Uchiha when there's money to be made fighting. Now i hope you can drop this because it has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/17/

Here Senju = Uchiha. PLease dont argue with the Manga


I don't even believe the third knew every technique in konoha. It's only been implied. As for who chose hokage, it's never even been implied the 1st and 2nd chose the 3rd. As i said the only hokage who chose the next was when the 3rd chose the 4th, the elders aren't hokages.

I said it was the Hokages and the ELDERS who chose the Hokage.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Please try to account for the shurikens everywhere, people IN THE STREETS, and the fire burning. v.v
Correction
There are around 10shuriken/Kunai, Which is hardly any
The is smoke but you can't prove that there is fire at all
People in the streets could still be killed by stealth tactics.

He would have to face everyone eventually so avoinding crouded places is pointless.
Why. With madara sowing confusion and his stealth tactics I doubt the Uchiha's would have ever got effectively organized. If they did Get effectively organized we would have seen more evidence of an actual battle.

Please name TWO situtations where the manga and anime are entirly different and have effected ones opinon or view
I already did
Oro vs 3rd Hokage
Gaara vs Kimimaru

uh idk maybe FACEDOWN :D
Unprovable. He could have landed on his side and fallen over then we don't know

Execution style murder. As I said to Muffin :rolleyes: POW's are put on their knees and shot in the back of the head. Exactly what happened here only Itachi used a nife. Another thin that proves he killed them from behind is the fac tthat HES STANDING BEHIND THEM
He used a sword and he killed them. His father and mother could have been standing up for all we know and Itachi could also have moved form the spot he was at when he killed them

They dont use bullets in American executions :susp:
Your Point. Execution is execution

Here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/398/17/

and here http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/399/02/
proves that were hired by countries to act as militia. Just like Hidden village act as militias.
Still no proof that they ever fought large scale battles.

If one country hired senju the other hired Uchiha. They didnt say a squad of each they said the whole thing
No it just said they hired them. It never makes any mention of hiring all of them.

If they were so much stronger, why didnt they kill them during their already existing battle
Again i already covered this

[MinatoNamikaze]

Correction
There are around 10shuriken/Kunai, Which is hardly any
The is smoke but you can't prove that there is fire at all
People in the streets could still be killed by stealth tactics.

How many more kunai do you want in 4 or 5 panels!!!??? If there were 100 would you be satisfied. Kunuai and shuriken are long range battle items. Stealth requires slit throat tactics. You cant stand on top of a building and throw Kunai at everyone v.v

Why. With madara sowing confusion and his stealth tactics I doubt the Uchiha's would have ever got effectively organized. If they did Get effectively organized we would have seen more evidence of an actual battle.

Evidence of an actual battle!!?? How much more do you want?? Blood, corpses, kunai, fire, a guys tanding there saying a killed everyone. There is nothing else kishi could have done except make Itahci spend 3 or 4 pages explaining HOW he killed everyone:lmao:

I already did
Oro vs 3rd Hokage
Gaara vs Kimimaru

And those have had a major impact on the series??:huh:

A genjutsu was used by the wrong hokage and Garaa still won. I dont see many huge changes there

Unprovable. He could have landed on his side and fallen over then we don't know

wow seriously? The mother is on top of the father. They are face done. The only way for that to happen is if someone shot or sliced them from behind!!

He used a sword and he killed them. His father and mother could have been standing up for all we know and Itachi could also have moved form the spot he was at when he killed them

Yes but they were killed from behind!!

Your Point. Execution is execution

Im not talking Execution. As ive said many times Im talking EXECUTION STYLE MURDER!!!!!

proves that were hired by countries to act as militia. Just like Hidden village act as militias.
Still no proof that they ever fought large scale battles.

No it just said they hired them. It never makes any mention of hiring all of them.

ANd both sides are goingto show up to a war with 20 guys hoping the enemy doesnt bring any more?? Lol thats hilarious. They were hired to fight battles and in those battles Everyone would have fought.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

How many more kunai do you want in 4 or 5 panels!!!??? If there were 100 would you be satisfied. Kunuai and shuriken are long range battle items. Stealth requires slit throat tactics. You cant stand on top of a building and throw Kunai at everyone v.v
stealth

noun
avoiding detection by moving carefully

So throwing Kunais can be done as part of stealth. He would have moved in a careful way to avoid detection. Either way it is stealth.
Evidence of an actual battle!!?? How much more do you want??
There is evidence that people died but no real evidence that there was a battle.
besides for a clan famedfor fire users there seems to be no evidence that any fire techs were really used beyond a little smoke.
Blood, corpses, kunai, fire, a guys tanding there saying a killed everyone.
Massacre. All these things are present in a massacre as said earlier and none prove there was a battle
There is nothing else kishi could have done except make Itahci spend 3 or 4 pages explaining HOW he killed everyone:lmao:
Maybe he should have
And those have had a major impact on the series??:huh:
Yes. hat is the difference in power between characters in debates such as this.
A genjutsu was used by the wrong hokage and Garaa still won. I dont see many huge changes there
What if you are arguing how strong the second is? Or if Gaara would have won the fight if Kimimaru wasn't sick?
wow seriously? The mother is on top of the father. They are face done. The only way for that to happen is if someone shot or sliced them from behind!!
No. They could have turned as they fell or they could have turned after they fell I mean who said they were killed with one hit? How do you know they were dead when they hit the ground?
Yes but they were killed from behind!!
Unproveable
Im not talking Execution. As ive said many times Im talking EXECUTION STYLE MURDER!!!!!
:D :D
Read this. This is the definition of Execution style murder. Note it doesn't support your claims that they must have been killed from behind
Execution-style murder and execution-style killing are news media buzzwords applied to various acts of criminal murder where the perpetrator kills at close range a conscious victim who is under the complete physical control of the assailant and who has been left with no course of resistance or escape. One of the more notorious occurrences of an execution-style murder was the St. Valentine's Day massacre in Chicago in 1929 where a number of assailants posed as police officers. Color of authority however is not a defining component of the event, as the crimes of Stanley Williams and Dennis Rader also fall into this category. The terminology may derive from the process of binding the victim and killing them at close range while conscious. Some thrill killings have variously been described as execution-style murders.

The weapon involved is usually a handgun, though long guns, blunt instruments, and bladed weapons have also been used in killings labeled as execution style. The method is generally understood to presume such a degree of wanton, premeditated evil that any other crimes undertaken during the incident (e.g., robbery, kidnapping, rape) cannot even be considered as motives
ANd both sides are goingto show up to a war with 20 guys hoping the enemy doesnt bring any more?? Lol thats hilarious. They were hired to fight battles and in those battles Everyone would have fought.
So now it is a war? Where did this come from. it wasn't a war. they were hired as MILITIA
So they were basically hired as backup. Not hired to fight full scale wars against each other.

[Muffin]

You cant give me an infraction without abusing your power. I only used 1 anime reference and I have refrained from doing so since. I am merely argueing with you about the rule. So im not actually breaking any right now :p :p Course feel free to give me an infraction and see what happens


Seriously? Arguing with a mod about a rule..the only reason i haven't handed out infractions is because it's a lenient rule. But now you're saying it's abusing my power if i give out infractions when you break a rule? Seriously get off your high horse and stop acting like your above the rules. I've shown you the rule. Stop trying to bring in the Anime in the manga section.

The topic is becoming kind of off topic. Itachi will easily be one of the first to die. A 1on1 fighter will not last long at all in a free for all. Kakazu for example has a much better chance because he is a beast and has multiple lives, not to mention he will simply harden his skin to protect himself from most attacks.

Pein, Kakazu, Sasori, Madara and Zetsu are my picks for the last few. Although impossible to decide who will be left the winner because we don't know enough about Madara and Pein.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Seriously? Arguing with a mod about a rule..the only reason i haven't handed out infractions is because it's a lenient rule. But now you're saying it's abusing my power if i give out infractions when you break a rule? Seriously get off your high horse and stop acting like your above the rules. I've shown you the rule. Stop trying to bring in the Anime in the manga section.

I only brang the anime in once and since Ive gotten the warning I havent done it again. I am merely explaing my case about why anime should be able to be used in this section. No rules broken here

The topic is becoming kind of off topic. Itachi will easily be one of the first to die. A 1on1 fighter will not last long at all in a free for all. Kakazu for example has a much better chance because he is a beast and has multiple lives, not to mention he will simply harden his skin to protect himself from most attacks.

What if its all 1v1 fights. Whos to say 3 peopel would gang up on Itachi?? It would actually probably be 1v1 ro 2v2 battels becaus epeopel couldnt coordinate teams like that

Pein, Kakazu, Sasori, Madara and Zetsu are my picks for the last few. Although impossible to decide who will be left the winner because we don't know enough about Madara and Pein.

Id say Madara, Pein, possibly sasori and itachi

[Sasori]

pein has rinnengan and it was claimed as one of the greatest eye techniques that helped the user to form the ninja world. so I say pein and there is 6 of him. although my personal choice is sasori because of the 100 army and human puppet ability meaning he can us alot of different techniques.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I'm gonna take this opportunity to say Kaze, stop.
You're done.
You lost. It's over.
I suggest you stop.
When you have Muffin and Adam on you for a few pages, chances are you lost a while ago.
And reading this, you clearly did.
Now then, what the hell is going on?
100 Konohamaru's?
You guys realize what thread this is right?

Also, I decided to change this thread up a bit.
The Akatsuki line-up is classic.
Meaning no one is dead, and there's no Orochimaru(either that or no Deidara).
I'm not gonna make an Updated Akatsuki thread, because there's no argument there, Pein would dominate.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Well if we are talking all Akatsuki from when Oro left until now.

Top Contenders IMO
Pein- Especially in the last couple of chapters we have seen he is extremly powerful even the individual bodies are quite a handfull
Madara- Going on past experience and TSJ he is probably gonna be quite tricky
Deidara- He is good at mass destruction (Probably even better at it then Pein as it doesn't take so much energy for him), Also good tactical mind.
Kakuzu- Smart and analytical he is quite tricky with his range of hearts and multiple attack styles as well as the solid defense.
Sasori-Solid puppeteer and some nasty combinations. Added to a strong offense/defense abilities makes him a nasty all rounder

Sasuke-He is sorta borderline as to whether or not he would be one of the top contenders (I wasn't sure where to fit him in the list), Strong but inexperience ATM is a bit of a letdown IMO.

The other contenders
Kisame- Strong but perhaps not quite strong enough and versatile in his range of attacks to be one of the main contenders but still quite powerful.
Itachi-Good but not necessarily the best in a multi person engagement due to the fact that he is more of a 1vs1 fighter
Hidan-Funny and immortal but he suffers from being slow (By akatsuki standards) and his tech needs too much to be effective
Konan- Good but limited by the paper and it's many weaknesses so she probably won't last.
Karin/Suigetsu/Juugo- Probably the weakest three but since we have seen little of them really fighting that is still opinion mostly. I seriously doubt they will last long tho.

Other
Zetsu-We have never seen him fight so he could be strong or weak and we just don't know

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Sasori can be easily defeated by both Kisame and Deidara.
I wouldn't consider him a contender unless somehow both Kisame and Deidara are taken out quickly.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Sasori can be easily defeated by both Kisame and Deidara.
I wouldn't consider him a contender unless somehow both Kisame and Deidara are taken out quickly.

I'm not so sure Kisame could take him out easily. Hiruko is quite strong and the puppets quite tricky for a close quaters fighter like Kisame to get too.
Deidara I agree would be easily beating Sasori.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I'm not so sure Kisame could take him out easily. Hiruko is quite strong and the puppets quite tricky for a close quaters fighter like Kisame to get too.
Deidara I agree would be easily beating Sasori.

I say Kisame would easily beat Sasori because in one half swing of his sword he managed to take all of Naruto's usable chakra(including the small amount of the Kyuubi's chakra he was able to use) and Sasori's puppets don't have near as much chakra in them as Naruto did.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I say Kisame would easily beat Sasori because in one half swing of his sword he managed to take all of Naruto's usable chakra(including the small amount of the Kyuubi's chakra he was able to use) and Sasori's puppets don't have near as much chakra in them as Naruto did.

That would be an interesting one wouldn't it. Can Kisame suck Sasori's chakra out through is puppets? And would Sasori simply release his Chakra strings if it looked like the puppet was going to be hit and reattach them when it was safe like Kankuro did?

I also thing that the 3rd Kazekage Puppet would be hard for Kisame as it can attack from different directions in a wide area using the iron Sand and without needing to actually touch Kisame or put Chakra into the Iron sand.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

That would be an interesting one wouldn't it. Can Kisame suck Sasori's chakra out through is puppets? And would Sasori simply release his Chakra strings if it looked like the puppet was going to be hit and reattach them when it was safe like Kankuro did?


I also thing that the 3rd Kazekage Puppet would be hard for Kisame as it can attack from different directions in a wide area using the iron Sand and without needing to actually touch Kisame or put Chakra into the Iron sand.

If he could suck the chakra from Sasori through the puppets then this would be easier to call. All I know is, Samehada's ability renders Sasori's puppets useless unless Sasori can find a way around it.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

If he could suck the chakra from Sasori through the puppets then this would be easier to call. All I know is, Samehada's ability renders Sasori's puppets useless unless Sasori can find a way around it.
True, very true. I looked up iron sand and all it says is that he turns his chakra into a magnetic field. It doesn't say whether or not the Iron sand has chakra in it. If it doesn't then it is the perfect weapon against Kisame. Otherwise Sasori could simply use all his puppets long range attacks and hope for poison.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

True, very true. I looked up iron sand and all it says is that he turns his chakra into a magnetic field. It doesn't say whether or not the Iron sand has chakra in it. If it doesn't then it is the perfect weapon against Kisame. Otherwise Sasori could simply use all his puppets long range attacks and hope for poison.

Agreed.
Iron Sand will make or break this fight.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Agreed.
Iron Sand will make or break this fight.
He could just rush him with the hundred puppets and hope one of them hits and poisons him. But iron Sand would be the best option ATM. Still Sasori is quite tough and against alot of the others would do quite well.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

He could just rush him with the hundred puppets and hope one of them hits and poisons him. But iron Sand would be the best option ATM. Still Sasori is quite tough and against alot of the others would do quite well.

True.
He would do good against other members of Akatsuki.
Although I think Deidara and Kisame have too big of an advantage over him.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

True.
He would do good against other members of Akatsuki.
Although I think Deidara and Kisame have too big of an advantage over him.
Yeah. Kisame would be 50/50 tho depending on how samehadda affects the puppets. Deidara would have a huge advantage over most of the others though due to some rather devastating bombs.
Still Sasori is IMO one other the top contenders especially if Deidara and Kisame don't make it.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

If Kisame and Deidara don't make it, Sasori is definitely a contender.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

It's still up in the air tho as to who will take the top place tho IMO. It would be the most Epic battle to see as well.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I still say Pein wins this.
Quite a few characters have their own moves that would render one Pain unusable, but Nagato is controlling the Pein's, therefore unless if all 6 of them die he dies, he will win no matter what.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I still say Pein wins this.
Quite a few characters have their own moves that would render one Pain unusable, but Nagato is controlling the Pein's, therefore unless if all 6 of them die he dies, he will win no matter what.
So in this battle is Nagato fighting alongside the bodies or Hiding. either way if say Deidara can take out a majority of the bodies it may be possible for him to beat Nagato by simply taking out each body individually and then flushing him out of hiding. We also know that Deidara could avoid alot of the Peins attacks due to the fact he can stay far away from them.
Madara is the wild card in this fight depending on how good he actually is (as we know how good he is supposed to be)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

So in this battle is Nagato fighting alongside the bodies or Hiding.

I don't see how he could be alongside them.
We know nothing about his attacks.

either way if say Deidara can take out a majority of the bodies it may be possible for him to beat Nagato by simply taking out each body individually and then flushing him out of hiding.

That is true....

Madara is the wild card in this fight depending on how good he actually is (as we know how good he is supposed to be)

Tobi could possibly be a big player as well.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I don't see how he could be alongside them.
We know nothing about his attacks.
true. Nagato could be UBER for all we know.
That is true....
:lol:
Tobi could possibly be a big player as well.
Well Tobi=Madara for me. but lets leave that debate to others as we have argued it to death:D :D :D :D :D

[Doctor Octogonapus]

true. Nagato could be UBER for all we know.

:lol:

Well Tobi=Madara for me. but lets leave that debate to others as we have argued it to death:D :D :D :D :D

Probably is too xD

Alright :D

[Jackums]

wow. I haven't posted on this thread in a while. Brings back memories. haha.

Anyway. Sasori is definately near the top. Along with Deidra, Pein, and Madara. Although we don't know enough about Madara/Tobi to assume that.

Deidra's clay bombs will definately be a lot of trouble for the others. Not to mention the fact that it could destroy all of Sasori's puppets, and him. Although, if the other members manage to stop Deidra from becoming airbourne, he won't be that big of a threat. If he does, he could easily use C4, which none of the akatsuki members could counter. Only electric based attacks can disarm Deidra's clay bombs. Not to mention his Kyūkyoku Geijutsu jutsu, which destroys everything in a 10 killometre radius at the cost of his own life.

Then there's Sasori. Puppet army, multiple iron sand techniques. Scrolls with water and fire projectiles. His poison abilities. He also has a lot of chance. Providing he can survive/stop Deidra's attacks.

Madara/Tobi. Like i said. Not much is known about him. So we can't really make any assumptions. Although, i don't see how he's even going to be scratched, with his space and time jutsu.

Pein. Well, Pein is a god. His jutsu?
Amplification Summoning Technique (Canine Summon)
Body Replacement Technique
Fierce Raining at Will
Five Seals Barrier
Flaming Arrow of Amazing Ability
Illusionary Dragon Nine Consuming Seals
King of Hell
Magic Lantern Body Technique
Mirrored Sudden Attacker
Panda Iron Wall (Panda Summon)
Sealing Technique Absorption Seal
Shapeshifting Technique
Shinra Tensei
Soul Removal (Unnamed)
Summoning Technique (Multiple)
Water Release: Violent Bubble Wave (Crustacean Summon)
Water Release: Violent Water Wave
Wind Release: Violent Wind Palm

And i think that says it all :) Sasori, Pein, Madara and Deidra are my predictions.

[Peinsagod]

Gold!

Its too bad no one posts in this thread anymore. Ever since myself saying Deidara can kick the crap out of 3/4ths of Akatsuki there hasn't been anything interesting here.

Actually many of the akatsuki can beat him examples:Itachi could use susanoo or tsukiyomi or just throw something at him, Kazuku can fly and uses far reaching attacks, Sasori becuz poison kills u no matter how high u fly if it gets in ur system, and madara/pein could slaughter him




also i dont believe we could really settle this because most lekley the last 2 would be madara and pein which is a stand still at them moment because we havent seen madara attack ever so we cant prove he still can so with proof all he can do is teleport so he cant kill pein and pein cant catch him.




as an add to the first part i think there is a way for sasori to easily win if Deidara is dying and decides to uses his uber bomb then he'll kill them all except Itachi because of susanoo (it creates a shield around itachi), Madara will teleport, Sasori could ust the iron sand techinque to surround himself



plus if deidara is stopped before liftoff he's screwed





:turtle:

[MinatoNamikaze]

many of the akatsuki can beat him examples:Itachi could use susanoo or tsukiyomi or just throw something at him, Kazuku can fly and uses far reaching attacks, Sasori becuz poison kills u no matter how high u fly if it gets in ur system, and madara/pein could slaughter him

Agreed

also i dont believe we could really settle this because most lekley the last 2 would be madara and pein which is a stand still at them moment because we havent seen madara attack ever so we cant prove he still can so with proof all he can do is teleport so he cant kill pein and pein cant catch him.

Agreed

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

[COLOR="Blue"]Actually many of the akatsuki can beat him examples:Itachi could use susanoo or tsukiyomi or just throw something at him, Kazuku can fly and uses far reaching attacks, Sasori becuz poison kills u no matter how high u fly if it gets in ur system, and madara/pein could slaughter him
Tsukyomi requires Eye contact and Susanoo is too short ranged to catch Deidara. There is also a range to throwing and deidara can still dodge.
Kakuzu can sorta fly but Deidara would probably have the advantage in the air
Sasori needs to hit him with poison for it to work
Pein is good but we haven't really seen all that much to adversely affect a person who can fly high and fast.
also i dont believe we could really settle this because most lekley the last 2 would be madara and pein which is a stand still at them moment because we havent seen madara attack ever so we cant prove he still can so with proof all he can do is teleport so he cant kill pein and pein cant catch him.The problem is that we don't know the limitations of Madaras TSJ. We don't know if it has a maximun range or whatever. So yeah we don't know enough about Madara to pick an outcome.
as an add to the first part i think there is a way for sasori to easily win if Deidara is dying and decides to uses his uber bomb then he'll kill them all except Itachi because of susanoo (it creates a shield around itachi), Madara will teleport, Sasori could ust the iron sand techinque to surround himself
Firstly Deidara would have to use the bomb.
Hidan would technically survive.
kakuzu can harden his skin
Kisame could try to divert or lessen the blast by hiding under water.
Pein could protect his body and revive the others.
So really Deidaras ultimate bomb wouldn't have a large chance of killing some in certain circumstances.
Of course it all depends on where each fighter is in relation to the blast.
(Eg if Sasori was right next to Deidara Iron sand might not protect him.)
plus if deidara is stopped before liftoff he's screwed
No. Deidara showed he was just as quick and crafty on the ground as he is in the air.

[sHaoLin_ruGby]

IMO Pein takes this one

he has the numbers and I'm guessing he has the chakra to outLast everyone.
aLthough this is a tough one because it is a battLe royaLe so if everyone ganged up on Pein it might be a struggLe for him.

in terms of deidei... if he was to use his suicide bomb, pein couLd summon himseLf somewhere eLse

[WhiteFang]

Bump.

I'm actually thinking here that Pein is gonna win this. But how do you defeat Madara? Someone that simply can't be hit from what we've seen/

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Yeah Madara is the real wildcard in this fight.
He can dodge attacks well enough but in terms of offensive abilities shown he is by far the weakest of all the fighters in this lot.
Pein has Stamina and diversity
Kakuzu has toughness/redundancy
Hidan Has immortality
Konan is screwed
Kisame has Stamina and large AOF attacks
Deidara has best offensive and evasion
Sasori has absolute defence
Itachi is best fighting them individually (And so would struggle in BR)

It could go a number of ways

[Nikushimi]

If it's a plot-based fight? Kishi finds a reason why all the Akatsuki members die and Sasuke somehow scrapes by with a victory.

Reasonably-speaking?

Pain's not going to win. He's going to be his usual arrogant self and try to take on EVERYONE, only to get curbed my a downpour of Jutsu from guys like Deidara, Kakuzu, and Sasori. Kisame's going to find some interesting opponents and cut them up. Sasuke will exploit openings between people in combat and make his way to Itachi. Itachi will try to go after Madara, only to be stopped and held up in a fight with Sasuke. Madara will snicker and teleport somewhere to wait it out.

The massacre that ensues is legendary. Pain dies at the start either by getting raped by the other members or by Madara teleporting to where Nagato is and killing him. Hidan is killed/neutralized quickly for being grossly outmatched. Zetsu dies quickly because that's his thing, yo. Deidara is targeted for being the most dangerous and is killed by either Sasori, Kakuzu, or Kisame (because, undoubtedly, they will all gang up on him). Itachi will rub Sasuke's face in the dirt and then stomp all over Hebi. Once Itachi joins the rest of the big boys, the smackdown only gets more epic. Itachi does some cool shit and takes maybe one or two of them with him, likely Kakuzu and/or Kisame, but then is too fatigued. Zetsu then reemerges via Houshi no Jutsu and starts draining Itachi. Itachi collapses and gets killed by Sasori. Sasori then kills Zetsu who cannot drain chakra or respawn from an artificial body.

Sasori wins by having a combination of insane fucking power and a shit ton of Stamina, plus a body that doesn't really have an adverse reaction to fatigue or injury. But he likely loses the majority of his collection in the process.

BUT WAIT.

Madara appears out of nowhere and stabs Sasori through the heart with a kunai. Sasori curses the Uchiha name and Kishimoto along with it as he dies. Madara gives a cheer.

Then Raikage Liger Bombs him @ Mach 20.

Raikage wins.