Pein vs. Madara (OFFICIAL THREAD)

[GangstaKage]

Who would win in this battle againsnt the toughest.

My opinion would probobly be Madara because from what I heard about him and what I know about him is that he is really strong.Also when Jiraya said he thought someone sommoned the bijuu(tailed-beasts) into the world.The one frog said no shinobi was capable of summoning the bijjuu.Jiraya said that the frog was wrong because there was a shinobi capable of summoning the bijuu,Madara.

So if he was capoble of sommoning the bijuu he must be really strong.Stronger than even Pein.

So what do you think?

(sorry in title i spelled Pein wrong)

[Tohno Takaki]

I..... dont know, we havent seen madara fight yet an d we do not know any of his moves, but from the looks that even the kiyui knows him and pein respects him, i think madara will win

[GangstaKage]

I..... dont know, we havent seen madara fight yet an d we do not know any of his moves, but from the looks that even the kiyui knows him and pein respects him, i think madara will win

I agree

[BK-nin]

let me answer that question with one of my own. who is kissing who's ass?

[GangstaKage]

let me answer that question with one of my own. who is kissing who's ass?

Huh?Can you be more specific.I really dont know what you mean

[BK-nin]

Huh?Can you be more specific.I really dont know what you mean who rules over who? (madara rules over pein)

[GangstaKage]

who rules over who? (madara rules over pein)

oh

[Super Luigi]

madara would beat his ass

[Minato]

Well doesnt it go this way Pein get the bijju for madara or sumthin ? Well Madara then their Pein then the rest of akatsuki , i dont think madara will be less powerfull then pein. Mabey equal to the first hokage.

[Katon]

Well as you all know Tobi is Madara, and Pain/Pein (however you want to pronounce it) has the Rinnegan. Well, if Tobi's personality switched to Madara for this fight, and Pain used his jutsu "The six paths of Pain" to fight Tobi, who do you think would win?

Personally, i think Tobi would, simply because Madara could control Kyuubi, and if Pain even takes orders from Tobi on occasion, it shows he has a high amount of power, even for an Akatsuki,

what do you think?

[Senwyn]

Tricky one. I haven't seen Madara fight enough to make a good estimate.

[LaserMonkey]

We can't really judge Tobi yet, we havent seen him fight, or his Abilities, all the abilities we seen so far from tobi is Sharingan, Pein we've seen him, and why would Pein take orders from Tobi, that means Tobi has to be stronger than Pein.

[Senwyn]

We can't really judge Tobi yet, we havent seen him fight, or his Abilities, all the abilities we seen so far from tobi is Sharingan, Pein we've seen him, and why would Pein take orders from Tobi, that means Tobi has to be stronger than Pein.

That's a good point. So Tobi probably would win, based on that.

[uchiha geek]

yea even though we havent seen tobi fight for pein to take orders from him has to mean something :]]

[PriscillaXOXOXOX]

pein seems strong, but tobi, i dont know how stong he is. but i don't know, well i think pein is stronger in this case, but who knows.:)

[hyugamaster]

pein would kill tobi so quickly

he wouldnt even have to use his 6 peins

[Muffin]

If Tobi is Madara then Pein would defeat him.

Itachi talked down about Madara's abilities saying he was only a shell of his former self. And Itachi is in no way stronger than Pein. Thus would make Pein > Tobi IF he is Madara.

[kevinito]

tobi

[MisaMisa]

:) Tobi

[hyugamaster]

stop spamming

if madara is tobi than pein will win

simple as that

[GangstaKage]

No Tobi would win.Pein's atacks would go through Tobi.Also Tobi commands Pein and gives him orders.You take orders from thoses Superior to you.Also adding the Mangekyou and Regular sharingan gives Tobi the win.

[Shishi Uchiha]

stop spamming

if madara is tobi than pein will win

simple as that

true cause madaras a pathetic shell of his former self

[GangstaKage]

true cause madaras a pathetic shell of his former self

That doesnt mean he isnt still strong.He is probobly the strongest in akatsuki!

[Shishi Uchiha]

if itachi is stronger than madara right now and pein is stronger than itachi then pein would win

[GangstaKage]

Itachi isnt stronger than Madara

[Shishi Uchiha]

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/386/11/

sorry i ment to say if itachi can surpass madara pein would still be stronger because madara is not as strong as he was before

[GangstaKage]

He said when/if he gets Sasuke's eyes he will be able to surpass Madara wich I dont think will happen due to the fact that Sasuke still hasnt used cs or cs2.(I wont go into more details) but Tobi would most likely win(opinion)

[Shishi Uchiha]

i still think pein

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Since we don't know what madara can do I will have to go Pein

[KyubiiRage]

If Tobi is Madara,then Pein would die

[Muffin]

If Tobi is Madara,then Pein would die

Even though Itachi said Madara is a shell of his former self.

While it's known Pein has never lost a battle, while Madara in his prime lost to the 1st?

[sHaoLin_ruGby]

Even though Itachi said Madara is a shell of his former self.

While it's known Pein has never lost a battle, while Madara in his prime lost to the 1st?

weLL wouLd Pein beat the first ?

i wouLd have to say pein ! he is too strong, hasn't it been said that rinnengan is the strongest of the three eyes ?

oh and on a side note, does ranmaru from the fiLLer episodes count as the 4th dojutsu (kekkei genkai) ?

[hibar90]

As far as we know tobi can not be harmed (as far as we know). He has 1 knock out punch. And if he is madara an eternal mangekyou sharingan. It is tough since he will be fighting 6 people (now 5). What a ganker pein is. Pein never really show anything special other than 6 people sharing the same vision and 1 unique ability each. Since jiraiya is able to kill 3. I would assume madara to kill at least 4 (assuming he's a bad ass and stronger than jiraiya). He might lose since he's not as strong as he used to. But as know I think it's 50:50.

Itachi only need the eternal mangekyou sharingan from sasuke (if he ever wins) to surpass madara. As we seen Madara EMS is his own and his brother combine. This show that both only master one jutsu of MS. (If one of them master 2 or 3, itachi shape would be combine as well). Itachi already master 2 on his own. (So far there are 3 orogininal shape of MS, excluding kakashi. Thus following the japanese myth we should get the third jutsu of MS).

[Anbuhaku]

i think pein would cause itachi said how tobi has just gotten weaker

[Masterofdeath]

Madara wins!!!!!! I will explain as the debate rages on.

[wang tang]

madara, king of uchihas, pain is a match but not enough, madara took on 1st and 2nd hokage on and didnt die, madar is just awesome

[vane]

Why not post under Manga battle? Posting it here people will have to use spoilers.

[Masterofdeath]

Oh, how do I change it? I will figure it out. one sec

[vane]

A mod can move it as soon as one see's this post.

[Masterofdeath]

It is changed.

[Masterofdeath]

anyway, who wins?

[wang tang]

madara of course, pain is nothing but an underling to him

[Masterofdeath]

Yes, you are right.

[Masterofdeath]

Madara wins with the use of only four techniques. Amateratsu, time space jutsu, tskuyomi, and susanoo (questionable whether he can use it.) Pein can't counter any of these jutsu.

[WhiteFang]

Uchiha Madara I suppose... After all he orders Pein around. It would be one heck of a fight though. Plus, we don't know all their powers yet.

[Masterofdeath]

Elaborate more on the topic. We can't assume a fight based off of who rules who. Lets not forget Pein thinks he is god. Madara doesn't run him.

[Xinobi]

Last warning... Do not post in the parent container MasterofDeath. They do not belong in the top level. Use the subs like everyone else...


You may continue.

[vane]

Madara wins with the use of only four techniques. Amateratsu, time space jutsu, tskuyomi, and susanoo (questionable whether he can use it.) Pein can't counter any of these jutsu.

Sorry to inform you there but Madara has not proven to be able to use Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, or Susanoo. So you cant say he has them since it has never showed him using it even heard of him using it. Heck it hasnt even indirectly said he can use those techs. So as of right now the only techs that work in this battle are his phasing and his teleportation. You cant give him moves that we arnt sure he can use.

Basically if you look at it like that then that means Kakashi can use those 3 to. But since it hasnt even hinted that he can either then no one but Itachi can use them. So far it is safe to say only Itachi was capable of using those and now Sasuke because of Itachi. But only against Madara.

[WhiteFang]

Sasuke was only able to use Amaterasu... that to just once. Now, back to topic. Madara's ability to move his body parts across dimensions, making it appear as if attacks pass through him. That's one heck of a ability. Plus, he's super fast. Kakashi commented that he was as fast as Minato. And, the guy dodged Amaterasu. Pein thinks he's god, but how in the world will he even land a hit?

I give it to Uchiha Madara.

[Masterofdeath]

Actually, it has been stated by Itachi that Madara was the creator of black flames and that he and his brother were equals who fought to be the best. (amateratsu= black flames) Tsykuyomi and susanoo are questionable. However, time space jutsu and amateratsu can win this alone.

[wang tang]

Sorry to inform you there but Madara has not proven to be able to use Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, or Susanoo. So you cant say he has them since it has never showed him using it even heard of him using it. Heck it hasnt even indirectly said he can use those techs. So as of right now the only techs that work in this battle are his phasing and his teleportation. You cant give him moves that we arnt sure he can use.

Basically if you look at it like that then that means Kakashi can use those 3 to. But since it hasnt even hinted that he can either then no one but Itachi can use them. So far it is safe to say only Itachi was capable of using those and now Sasuke because of Itachi. But only against Madara.

madara can use ameretsu, and Tsukiyomi. those are both moves created by master sharingans, and as one, he can most likely use it, and plus, if he cant use ameretsu how does he know how to put it out, like when sasuke got him with it

[vane]

Actually, it has been stated by Itachi that Madara was the creator of black flames and that he and his brother were equals who fought to be the best. (amateratsu= black flames) Tsykuyomi and susanoo are questionable. However, time space jutsu and amateratsu can win this alone.
Tell me the chapter to which this was stated and I might give it a little more credit but until then no he cant do any of the 3.

madara can use ameretsu, and Tsukiyomi. those are both moves created by master sharingans, and as one, he can most likely use it, and plus, if he cant use ameretsu how does he know how to put it out, like when sasuke got him with it

Come on you do know that Madara can have attacks phase through him right. It wouldnt be that hard to let Amaterasu phase through him aswell. But until it is proven Madara cant use any of the 3. Not 1.
Sasuke was only able to use Amaterasu... that to just once. Now, back to topic. Madara's ability to move his body parts across dimensions, making it appear as if attacks pass through him. That's one heck of a ability. Plus, he's super fast. Kakashi commented that he was as fast as Minato. And, the guy dodged Amaterasu. Pein thinks he's god, but how in the world will he even land a hit?

I give it to Uchiha Madara.
O.k. for one I know that Sasuke only used it once. I was refering to Sasuke is the only one who has used 1 of the 3 attacks. Secondly yes having attacks phase through you is a pretty decent ability but just that ability alone wont win a fight. As I am sure that there is a way around it or else somebody i the future wont be able to beat him. And lastly Kakashi didnt say faster then Minato. He said Madara's time/space jutsu surpassed Minato's because he doesnt need and kind of seal or hand signs to perform it.

[Masterofdeath]

He put the flames out. Read the chapter again. If it fased through him it would have continued burning, but it didn't. It was stated he used black flames during the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight. I will find the exact chapter later on.

[vane]

^^ Well please do so. That should have been one of the first things you did was post the web page saying that Madara knows it.

[Masterofdeath]

I will find it later.

[vane]

Well I just went back through the entire fight and read every word and nowhere did it even hint that Madara could use Amaterasu. So until he actually uses it. Or at least says he can use it, he cant. So as of right now the only abilities he is capable of using is the phasing and the teleporting. Oh sorry I will give him the Kyuubi controling. Because that was clearly stated that he could do that. But since the Kyuubi is inside of Naruto it wont make a difference.

[Masterofdeath]

I haven't looked for it yet, but I will at some point.

[Masterofdeath]

Okay, I found two things that will clarify why I am right. I re-read and found the page that shows where Itachi recognizes the fact that neither he nor Sasuke are strong enough to defeat Itachi and that Madara is both invincible and immortal. I also found the page that showed the black flames of Madara, and in which Itachi practically stated that Madara knew all the secrets of the MS, and was able to unlock the final jutsu/secret with EMS. To fully understand you must read between the lines and read the entire chapter. One of the pictures has five eyes representing the five powers of the EMS.

[Masterofdeath]

It messes up my pics. read chapter 385 page 6-10 to find pics sorry

[vane]

Yes he learned all the secrets of MS but that doesnt mean that he knows any of the 3 techs that Itachi used. It could just mean that he learned what the MS is capable of. It doesnt mean every MS has the same techs. They could all have different abilities since they all have different looks.

One way for me to prove that only Itachi had Susanoo was that Susanoo had the special sword that Orochimaru was looking for, for a long time. Which means that it is one of a kind and Itachi had it. Also the mirror shield thing(forgot both of the names) was a special tool aswell. So Itachi is apparently the only one who had it. So who is to say that all MS are the same. When Itachi has a tech that no one else could have had since he had it.

Sorry if its a little confusing. Im sure you get my point. But since all MS are different maybe most of the techs are different aswell.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

madara, king of uchihas, pain is a match but not enough, madara took on 1st and 2nd hokage on and didnt die, madar is just awesome

So no one reads anymore.
How sad.
Madara fought only the first hokage, and got his ass kicked so hard it was coming out his face.

madara of course, pain is nothing but an underling to him

Because it's Madara's organization.
Think logically for once for the love of God!
He created Akatsuki, why the hell would he NOT be in charge!
And since neither of you two read the manga, let me just remind you that TOBI is ordered around by PEIN.
So The Madara half, runs the Akatsuki, but the Tobi half, is at the bottom of the chain.

Madara wins with the use of only four techniques. Amateratsu, time space jutsu, tskuyomi, and susanoo (questionable whether he can use it.) Pein can't counter any of these jutsu.

Two things.
One, it's funny you say they can't be countered, since you just saw three of the four be countered.
And two, Madara can only use one of those techniques.


Actually, it has been stated by Itachi that Madara was the creator of black flames and that he and his brother were equals who fought to be the best.

Okay, post the picture. Because I don't remember ever hearing that.

However, time space jutsu and amateratsu can win this alone.

No they can't. Just because you say it's right, doesn't mean it is.

I will find it later.

No, you'll find it now.

[shikadude]

I can't really tell. The only techniques we've seen are that Pein can sommun insane animals, and different versions of himself that can't die.

Madara has uber MS, and can supposedly do Amaterasu. The other techniques mentioned are unlikely. Itachi has never used Time-Space, and Kakashi has never used Tsukoyomi. Therefore, we can assume that Sharingan is unique to everyone, and has certain abilities others can and cannot use. So, he probably has different mega Sharingan attacks we haven't seen yet.

[vane]

So no one reads anymore.
How sad.
Madara fought only the first hokage, and got his ass kicked so hard it was coming out his face.


Matt you crack me up. :D
I can't really tell. The only techniques we've seen are that Pein can sommun insane animals, and different versions of himself that can't die.

Ok you just said it cant die. Also he can use every element of jutsu. He has 6 points of view. And he apparently has a major heaping of chakra at his disposal.
Madara has uber MS, and can supposedly do Amaterasu.
Your right about 1 thing he has a strong EMS. But he cant do Amaterasu since there is no proof.
The other techniques mentioned are unlikely. Itachi has never used Time-Space, and Kakashi has never used Tsukoyomi. Therefore, we can assume that Sharingan is unique to everyone, and has certain abilities others can and cannot use.
Thank you for saying what I said earlier in this thread.
So, he probably has different mega Sharingan attacks we haven't seen yet.

Which we dont know what they are or what they are capable of doing so they are pointless. Unless someone here is Kishi and can tell us. Until then he only has 2 abilities.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I think Vane and Majin have just about hit the nail on the Head with why Madara is not as strong as everyone thinks.

That Said a fight between Pein and Madara would be epic but ATM i would side with Pein

[Masterofdeath]

Look at the picture of the statue with five MS eyes. Now I am making a theory here, but it appears to me that it represents the five MS techniques. When Madara gained EMS he gained access to those techniques. Also, Susanoo isn't a sword. It was an MS technique that Itachi hid totsuka in. (to correct what vane said) The four techniques we know (one I am not so sure of) are as follows:
1. amateratsu
2. tskuyomi
3. susanoo
4. black hole jutsu (Kakashi is the only one to use it so far.)
5. (this is questionable, but I think it may be the fifth and final technique that makes him invincible and immortal) immortality which can only be gained through Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.

[roshin]

Look at the picture of the statue with five MS eyes. Now I am making a theory here, but it appears to me that it represents the five MS techniques. When Madara gained EMS he gained access to those techniques. Also, Susanoo isn't a sword. It was an MS technique that Itachi hid totsuka in. (to correct what vane said) The four techniques we know (one I am not so sure of) are as follows:
1. amateratsu
2. tskuyomi
3. susanoo
4. black hole jutsu (Kakashi is the only one to use it so far.)
5. (this is questionable, but I think it may be the fifth and final technique that makes him invincible and immortal) immortality which can only be gained through Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.

it's not stated that the 5 eyes represent those techniques, so it's still a theory. but i also wonder if madara can really use amaterasu.

but i think pein would win depending on what we know/confirm now. coz we only know and it's confirmed that time-space is what madara can do. and pein can like shikadude said "summon insane animals and different versions of him" but i know they can die coz jiraiya killed one of them. that gives him sight advantage, even with time space, madara can't run from pein.

[wang tang]

I think Vane and Majin have just about hit the nail on the Head with why Madara is not as strong as everyone thinks.

That Said a fight between Pein and Madara would be epic but ATM i would side with Pein

its called suspense everybody, do you really think thier gonna bust out all of madaras moves at one time, just read the manga, and we can see how it goes as they reveal him a bit more

[Masterofdeath]

Yes, I agree. However, I think he can use amateratsu. He can control the kyuubi.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

You have to kill Pein 6 times for him to die, and if you don't keep an eye on all the Pein's, the Pein you just killed could come back.
Pein has mastered all Elements of Ninjutsu, and has clearly mastered Summoning to a greater extent than Orochimaru.

From what I've seen from Tobi, Tobi is a wimp, he will run away from any fight, and let someone else take it. So if the Tobi side takes over during the fight, it's over.

1. amateratsu
2. tskuyomi
3. susanoo

No proof that he can use any of those.

4. black hole jutsu (Kakashi is the only one to use it so far.)

Kakashi's Mangekyo is not a Uchiha Technique. It's a new sharingan technique, developed by him, created by him, and used, only by him.


5. (this is questionable, but I think it may be the fifth and final technique that makes him invincible and immortal) immortality which can only be gained through Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.

Not true.
Don't even need to explain how that's not true.

Yes, I agree. However, I think he can use amateratsu. He can control the kyuubi.

What good'll burning the Kyuubi do?

[Masterofdeath]

Huh? he can control the Kyuubi i.e. use Naruto to fight. Madara can use time space jutsu to transport to the shinobi who is master of rebirth jutsu, and kill him. Then he could kill the others. Pein can't kill what he can't touch. Also, the 6 bodies can only use one style of jutsu per body.

[vane]

So we know that Madara cant perform the black hole now because 1 Majin said Madara cant 2 I said he cant and 3 Master of death agrees that he cant even though he stated earlier in this thread that he knew all all the MS techs. But he said on another thread
Sasuke will get his own MS. However, I think his jutsu will be different from the others. Just like Kakashi's is different because of a different design.
So this clearly says that Master agrees that Madara cant perform that tech.

Now thats 1 down. 3 left to go.

[Masterofdeath]

Lol! I never said he could use Kakashi's because Kakashi gained his MS a different way from Itachi and Madara. Thus, it would be different. I am almost 100% positive he can use amateratsu, and 80% sure he can use tsykuyomi.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Huh? he can control the Kyuubi i.e. use Naruto to fight. Madara can use time space jutsu to transport to the shinobi who is master of rebirth jutsu, and kill him. Then he could kill the others. Pein can't kill what he can't touch. Also, the 6 bodies can only use one style of jutsu per body.

And if Madara was really this strong, he wouldn't be in this situation, use your head.
If he was this strong.
Shodamine would've died there along with all of Konoha.
And Madara cannot control Naruto.

[Masterofdeath]

I know he can't control Naruto, but he could make the kyuubi take control of Naruto, take control of the Kyuubi, and thus control Naruto. He is the strongest alive; not ever. Yes, he would be in this situation because his goal is to control the world and bring the Uchiha's back to prominence. He can't do it alone because he can't beat every shinobi at the same time; no one can.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I know he can't control Naruto, but he could make the kyuubi take control of Naruto, take control of the Kyuubi, and thus control Naruto.

No he can't.
Proved in the very first shippuden ever.

He is the strongest alive; not ever.

No he's not.
Manga proves you right.
So I'm gonna ask you one last time.
You have been proven wrong.
DROP your argument. I am tired of having to respond to this every god damn day, your argument has been proven wrong in the manga, now drop the argument.

Yes, he would be in this situation because his goal is to control the world and bring the Uchiha's back to prominence.

I don't think the Uchiha part, but his goal is correct.

[vane]

Lol! I never said he could use Kakashi's because Kakashi gained his MS a different way from Itachi and Madara. Thus, it would be different. I am almost 100% positive he can use amateratsu, and 80% sure he can use tsykuyomi.

Hold on but didnt you say that madara is the master of MS. And that the 5 eye things are the techs. that the MS has and that the black hole is one of those 5 techs that Madara has mastered.

Look at the picture of the statue with five MS eyes. Now I am making a theory here, but it appears to me that it represents the five MS techniques. When Madara gained EMS he gained access to those techniques. Also, Susanoo isn't a sword. It was an MS technique that Itachi hid totsuka in. (to correct what vane said) The four techniques we know (one I am not so sure of) are as follows:
1. amateratsu
2. tskuyomi
3. susanoo
4. black hole jutsu (Kakashi is the only one to use it so far.)
5. (this is questionable, but I think it may be the fifth and final technique that makes him invincible and immortal) immortality which can only be gained through Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.

Yes it was here. That the EMS has the capability to do all of these. That you said that Kakashi was the only one to use so far. But yet you still said it was part of the 5 techs that Madara knows. But this post here contradicts what you just now said in the ouote that I have above this one.

[tailsdoll]

inuyasha i am can i fight

[Masterofdeath]

No, I said it was 5 MS techniques shown/revealed. However, I said it was only shown by Kakashi. I never thought Madara could use it, but it was a possibility.

[vane]

No, I said it was 5 MS techniques shown/revealed. However, I said it was only shown by Kakashi. I never thought Madara could use it, but it was a possibility.

But you have posted above that he possibly gained access to all 5 of those. With that one included.
Lol! I never said he could use Kakashi's because Kakashi gained his MS a different way from Itachi and Madara.
Oh but you did. You said it was a possibilty. So now this post is pointless?
Look at the picture of the statue with five MS eyes. Now I am making a theory here, but it appears to me that it represents the five MS techniques. When Madara gained EMS he gained access to those techniques.
Here is where you said it is possible that he gained access to all 5.

So saying that first you say it is possible. Then you say you never said it and proved that he couldnt do it with your own facts. And yet you still say it is a possibility even though you already proved it wrong with your own facts.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Wow, his response should be good xD

[XuchihaXsasukeX]

lol vane's got him on the runnnn...woot woot
i def agree with wat he said since he included kakashi's black jutsu in the so called "5 EMS TECHNIQUES" which madara has, but then said kakashi sharigan is different from madara since he gained it in a diff.. way
so there he just goes agaisnt wat he said.

[shikadude]

There is no way to respond to that without contradicting yourself. Vane won the argument.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Good job Vane. I look forward to the response

[Masterofdeath]

Yea, you are right I did say it was a possibility. However, I don't think he has the technique. I have stated that several times. I have to make it one of the five possible techniques because I have seen it be used by and MS user. However, I personnaly don't believe he can use it, but have no choice but to list it as a possiblity because he was the first to gain access to the MS and controls the highest level of sharingan.

[vane]

Yea, you are right I did say it was a possibility. However, I don't think he has the technique. I have stated that several times. I have to make it one of the five possible techniques because I have seen it be used by and MS user. However, I personnaly don't believe he can use it, but have no choice but to list it as a possiblity because he was the first to gain access to the MS and controls the highest level of sharingan.

It doesnt even matter you already proved yourself wrong on one of the techs. Yet you still think its a possibilty. So that leads me and the rest of us here to belive that your other so called facts are false aswell. So no he cant do any of them. Until it is stated, shown, or even hinted that he can do any of those then he cant do them. That is what I was trying to say from the get. You cant give him any techs. that we dont know he has.

But I also remember you saying on another post that all MS tech are more than likely different cause of the different design. So I dont know why you like to prove yourself wrong then keep argueing a fact that you proved wrong yourself. I guess it just gives you hope that Madara is the strongest.

Oh and you cant say you didnt say that cause here is the ouote.
Sasuke will get his own MS. However, I think his jutsu will be different from the others. Just like Kakashi's is different because of a different design.

[Masterofdeath]

I know, but Madara is the creator of MS. I said it is a possiblity he can use black hole. However, I am almost 100% positive he can use amateratsu and tsykuyomi. We will have to wait and see.

[vane]

I know, but Madara is the creator of MS. I said it is a possiblity he can use black hole.
A possibilty you proved wrong yourself.
However, I am almost 100% positive he can use amateratsu and tsykuyomi. We will have to wait and see.

Well just because you are almost 100% sure that he can use them doesnt mean he can use them. Until he says he can use them or uses them or even hints he can use them you cant bring them up in this fight. So your theory that he can use them needs to be dropped until proven other wise.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I know, but Madara is the creator of MS. I said it is a possiblity he can use black hole. However, I am almost 100% positive he can use amateratsu and tsykuyomi. We will have to wait and see.

No he's not the creator of MS.

[XuchihaXsasukeX]

wasn't he the first one to unlock the EMS though

[vane]

wasn't he the first one to unlock the EMS though

Yes he was the first to get EMS but that doesnt mean anything. Until they actually show some of those jutsu then he doesnt know them.

[WhiteFang]

Ok. I take Tsukyomi and Susanoo out of Madara's arsenal (I did'nt put it there in the first place). Now, Kakashi said that since there were no hand seals and all and also considering the situation Madara was in i.e surrounded by a huge swarm of bugs... he did'nt just teleport. He ceased to exist for a couple of moments. And Madara clearly countered/dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu... even the fire was'nt shown burning later. He can also travel at the speed of light as stated by Zetsu. Itachi himself stated that currently he was'nt strong enough to defeat Madara but would be if he gained EMS and that's saying something. So, howz Pein gonna sense him and attack him? Madara is just way too fast. And someone who can easily dodge (and probably put out) such a close range Amaterasu, must not have any problem dodging some insane animals.

[redtails]

I Think That They Are Equal

[wang tang]

Yes he was the first to get EMS but that doesnt mean anything. Until they actually show some of those jutsu then he doesnt know them.

lol, i get what your saying but the way it looks sounds retarded, he doesnt know the jutsu until he shows them? but yea, i just say we wait until madara unleashes a can of whoopa** on somebody or until he gets the crap before we conclude this battle

[vane]

Ok. I take Tsukyomi and Susanoo out of Madara's arsenal (I did'nt put it there in the first place). Now, Kakashi said that since there were no hand seals and all and also considering the situation Madara was in i.e surrounded by a huge swarm of bugs... he did'nt just teleport. He ceased to exist for a couple of moments. And Madara clearly countered/dodged Sasuke's Amaterasu... even the fire was'nt shown burning later. He can also travel at the speed of light as stated by Zetsu. Itachi himself stated that currently he was'nt strong enough to defeat Madara but would be if he gained EMS and that's saying something. So, howz Pein gonna sense him and attack him? Madara is just way too fast. And someone who can easily dodge (and probably put out) such a close range Amaterasu, must not have any problem dodging some insane animals.
But then how can Madara beat Pein with nothing to attack him with. SO far even from what you have said is that he can dodge. So then how can he win the battle if he cant attack someone who has 6 points of view. Which is almost like having the Byakugan and being able to see 360 degrees.
lol, i get what your saying but the way it looks sounds retarded, he doesnt know the jutsu until he shows them? but yea, i just say we wait until madara unleashes a can of whoopa** on somebody or until he gets the crap before we conclude this battle

Ok how does it sound retarded? I mean we cant say he has something that we dont know of yet. So far we have seen he is capable of dodging a few attacks. But we havnt seen him use anything. Also not that we have to see him use it but we have to either see him use it, hear him say or someone say he can use it, or someone or him even hint that he can use it.

[shikadude]

I know, but Madara is the creator of MS. I said it is a possiblity he can use black hole. However, I am almost 100% positive he can use amateratsu and tsykuyomi. We will have to wait and see.
Madara is not the creator of the Mangekyo Sharingan. He was someone who had mastered it, but was not the creator.

[Super Luigi]

Madara OWNS

[vane]

Madara OWNS

Ok and your facts to back that up. I see that you like him as a character.

[Masterofdeath]

Actually, Madara was the first in Uchiha history to use MS; thus he is the creator.

[vane]

Actually, Madara was the first in Uchiha history to use MS; thus he is the creator.

It doesnt make him the creator. It just makes him the first to use it. It was already incoded in his blood that he could use it. Also means that anyone before him could have done it.

[Masterofdeath]

Yes, but it was even said that the Uchiha had never seen such a level of Sharingan i.e. no one had used it before him and he is the creator. The creator is the first to ever use it.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Yes, but it was even said that the Uchiha had never seen such a level of Sharingan i.e. no one had used it before him and he is the creator. The creator is the first to ever use it.

Actually no they didn't.
No he didn't.
And no he wasn't.

[Masterofdeath]

I can prove it. Read Itachi vs. Sasuke ( he speaks of Madara and says he is the first to use it.) Read the last 3 chapters (it states it there also).

[Sandrock]

Hmmm... Madara Vs. Pein... Both are very interesting characters, Both have Eye techniques... but I gotta go with Pein.. for the fact that its 6 on 1 ( or maybe 5 now i guess - unless he's got another body already) ... each body seems to have a unique ability.. they seem to be able to revive each other... I'm sure madara has some amazing abilities too... But My vote is Pein.

[Masterofdeath]

Actually, only one of Peins bodies can revive the others. In theory (because Peins full power hasn't been defined) if you were to kill the revival body then Pein couldn't revive the others. This wouldn't be hard for Madara to do (speaking of killing one).

[vane]

Actually, only one of Peins bodies can revive the others. In theory (because Peins full power hasn't been defined) if you were to kill the revival body then Pein couldn't revive the others. This wouldn't be hard for Madara to do (speaking of killing one).

Ok then Madara has to kill the exact one that revives the dead bodies. But how does he know which one it is that revives them. Basically here Madara is at a disadvantage. Also how is Madara going to kill a body of Pein if he has no attacks as of right now. We have no clue what his techs. are. The 5 Sharingan techs that you refer to cant be used since I have already posted why they cant (cause we havnt seen them or heard of them or even had a hint of them). So how will Madara kill if he has no attacks as of right now. Besides being able to teleport at the speed of light.

[Masterofdeath]

Teleport at the speed of light and stab them (LOL! just joking) in all seriousness I have ot figure that out later on.

[vane]

Teleport at the speed of light and stab them (LOL! just joking) in all seriousness I have ot figure that out later on.

But see that was the point I was trying to make. So yes that when later on he reveals some of his attacks he will probably get a lot more credit for his abilities.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I don't think I've said this in here before.
But Itachi said himself that Madara is weaker than him, and we know Pein is stronger than Jiriaya, and Jiriaya is stronger than Itachi, Itachi cannot beat Pein, and Madara cannot beat Itachi, therefore Madara cannot beat Pein.

[FmAkilla]

madara with the mangekyou sharingan

[vane]

madara with the mangekyou sharingan

Ok and what is Madara going to do with that MS. Also I think you meant EMS.

[Sandrock]

madara with the mangekyou sharingan

and Pein has the Rinnagen.... which is said to be the strongest of all the eyes...

sure you can say he has the eternal MS... but what is the rinnagen.. the first eyes that gave birth to ninjutsu?.. yeah.

Pien's gotta win this fight... I'll bet my left testie on it

[wang tang]

I don't think I've said this in here before.
But Itachi said himself that Madara is weaker than him, and we know Pein is stronger than Jiriaya, and Jiriaya is stronger than Itachi, Itachi cannot beat Pein, and Madara cannot beat Itachi, therefore Madara cannot beat Pein.

umm, iv never seen this, where was this at?

[Masterofdeath]

Itachi never said that majin. prove it.

[vane]

Itachi never said that majin. prove it.

Madara said it. He said that if he hadnt taken precaution on Itachi he (Madara) would have been long dead by now. Which basically right there Madara said he is weaker than Itachi. He is just smarter. But thats what being 100 some odd years old does for you.

[Masterofdeath]

No, he said if he hadn't prepared for amateratsu he wouldn't be alive. Not that he was weaker that Itachi.

[vane]

No, he said if he hadn't prepared for amateratsu he wouldn't be alive. Not that he was weaker that Itachi.

No it wasnt just because of Amaterasu he was refering to. His exact words were "Fortunetly I managed to keep a few secrets even from him. If I hadnt I'd be dead right now." Which means Itachi was strong enough to kill him but Madara had some secrets that he never told Itachi that kept him alive. Point is made pretty clear right there. And if you want to look at the chapter it was chapter 397 page 10.

[Masterofdeath]

No, Itachi wasn't strong enough to kill Madara or else he would have killed him. Itachi practically said he couldn't kill him without EMS. Which is why he never killed Madara (because he wasn't strong enough and didn't have eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I just noticed something.

http://img36.onemanga.com/mangas/00000004/00000385/07.jpg

Itachi said, the way you decided Madara must be dead, just like the way you thought I was a kind, caring brother.
Is that hinting at something?
Cause Itachi actually was a kind, caring brother, therefore Sasuke was right about Itachi.

umm, iv never seen this, where was this at?

The Manga.

Itachi never said that majin. prove it.

With pleasure.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled-1.jpg
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/112.jpg

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, Itachi wasn't strong enough to kill Madara or else he would have killed him. Itachi practically said he couldn't kill him without EMS. Which is why he never killed Madara (because he wasn't strong enough and didn't have eternal Mangekyou Sharingan.)

No.
The reason he never killed Madara is because Madara was keeping secrets from him, if Madara had told Itachi everything, Itachi would have killed him.

[Masterofdeath]

We don't know what Madara didn't tell him. Besides what technique he unlocked with EMS. Also, Itachi is weaker or he wouldn't have called Madara an invincible immortal.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

We don't know what Madara didn't tell him. Besides what technique he unlocked with EMS. Also, Itachi is weaker or he wouldn't have called Madara an invincible immortal.

READ.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled-1.jpg

[vane]

I have just thought about something Madara can use. Since he is an Uchiha he can more than Likely use fire techs that we have seen the Uchiha use. So there is a little ground for Madara side debaters to stand on. Also there was a chapter showing him use one so Madara has fire techs. But nothing to do with MS techs right now.

But yes Majin has it posted above. That Madara is weaker than Itachi. And like he said Itachi cant beat Pein so in turn Neither can Madara since he is weaker than Itachi.

[Masterofdeath]

No, Madara never ever said that Itachi could defeat him in a fight. He merely said that had he not kept secrets and thought ahead Itachi would have killed him. For all we know that could mean he could kill him by poison, sneak attack, etc. Not that he is stronger.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, Madara never ever said that Itachi could defeat him in a fight. He merely said that had he not kept secrets and thought ahead Itachi would have killed him. For all we know that could mean he could kill him by poison, sneak attack, etc. Not that he is stronger.

No. It doesn't.
It means, he would have 100% Killed him.
I will post this one more time.
I suggest you admit you're wrong and drop it.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled-1.jpg

[vane]

No, Madara never ever said that Itachi could defeat him in a fight. He merely said that had he not kept secrets and thought ahead Itachi would have killed him. For all we know that could mean he could kill him by poison, sneak attack, etc. Not that he is stronger.

But it does mean he could have won. Sneak attacks and every thing is fair in the Ninja Era. But yes he was stronger. It has been hinted more than once.

[Masterofdeath]

No, Madara never ever said that Itachi could defeat him in a fight. He merely said that had he not kept secrets and thought ahead Itachi would have killed him. For all we know that could mean he could kill him by poison, sneak attack, etc. Not that he is stronger.

And I will stand by what I said. There are ways you can kill a person without being stronger than them. This would be one of those cases. Madara is an "invincible immortal" as stated by Itachi. If Itachi was stronger than Madara he wouldn't have said that. Tell me why he would say that if he was stronger than Madara.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

And I will stand by what I said.

Then i will report you for spam.

There are ways you can kill a person without being stronger than them. This would be one of those cases.

Just because you're too arrogant to admit you're wrong, doesn't mean you can just change the situation in your favor.

Madara is an "invincible immortal" as stated by Itachi. If Itachi was stronger than Madara he wouldn't have said that.

Not true.

Tell me why he would say that if he was stronger than Madara.

Okay, this may be hard to believe, but bare with me okay? I know it's a little out there but, because it's FUCKING TRUE!!!!!

[Masterofdeath]

Don't get mad because I will stand by my word. You haven't proved anything to me except that you are biased in your decisions, and that you accept only what you want to. I no longer care whether he is stronger or weaker than Itachi. Lets get back to the topic at hand of Madara vs. Pein.

[vane]

Don't get mad because I will stand by my word. You haven't proved anything to me except that you are biased in your decisions, and that you accept only what you want to. I no longer care whether he is stronger or weaker than Itachi. Lets get back to the topic at hand of Madara vs. Pein.

Alright here it is again. Madara only has regular fire techs. That will drain your chakra if you use the bigger ones. Pein is 6 bodies full of chakra. It would be safe to assume that he has at least 6 times the normal amount of chakra since he is 6 bodies. Also beisdes fire techs. what does Madara have. He has teleportation. Thats it and it doesnt kill. Pein has many techs and is uber strong.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Don't get mad because I will stand by my word.

I'm not getting mad.
I'm for lack of a better word, cracking down.


You haven't proved anything to me except that you are biased in your decisions, and that you accept only what you want to.

I don't need your arrogant bs, and I know I haven't proved anything to you, because the only way I'm right in your eyes, If I agree with you, and personally, I don't care.
I'm not being biased, I'm going by the manga, which you are not.
You don't like that, then get out of this thread cause I've had just about enough of your shit.

I no longer care whether he is stronger or weaker than Itachi. Lets get back to the topic at hand of Madara vs. Pein.

It's actually been resolved.

Pein>Jiriaya>Itachi>Madara.

Pein is stronger than Jiriaya, who is stronger than Itachi, who is stronger than Madara.

Therefore Madara cannot beat Itachi, nor Jiriaya, nor pein.

[Masterofdeath]

No, Pein himself said Jiraiya would have killed him if he had known his secret. So, your order is messed up. Itachi never said he was stronger than Madara, and Pein takes orders from Madara. So, Madara is stronger than Pein.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, Pein himself said Jiraiya would have killed him if he had known his secret. So, your order is messed up. Itachi never said he was stronger than Madara, and Pein takes orders from Madara. So, Madara is stronger than Pein.

If Jiriaya knew his secret.
But Jiriaya still got his ass kicked regardless, so technically, Pein is stronger than Jiriaya.
And Itachi did, I've posted it many times now, you just don't want to admit you're wrong.
And your logic is completely missing.
Just because Madara gives orders to Pein doesn't mean he's stronger, it's his organization, why the hell wouldn't he be in charge? And also, Pein gives orders to Tobi.

[vane]

Not with the Madara gives orders to Pein again. I thought that this has already been sloved that Pein only follows because of preference and ideas.

But no his order isnt mixed up. Jiraiya is weaker than Pein. Pein actually had a major advantage the whole time. Jiraiya was on the recieving end the whole time except for one awesomely executed attack. but then didnt expect there to be 3 other bodies. Really Jiraiya is weaker but he could have beat him if he knew the secret earlier.

[Summer.]

this is the second time that I have to step in arguing.

just warning all of you: there will be no third time. Next time when this thread gets out of control I'll close it.
please DEBATE on a proper level from now on. I haven't read all the conversation but I'll say this: Don't contradict to someone just to contradict.
PROVABLE FACTS are the things that should be used in debates. And that is what makes an ordinary conversation/arguing a DEBATE. a quality thing. statements that are based on pure FACTS.
that's all I want to say.

[vane]

Sorry it did get a little out of hand.

But to say who would win. I have already showed the facts that Madara doesnt have what it takes to kill Pein yet. Madara only has fire jutsu and teleportation. That isnt enough to beat the man who
killed Jiraiya.
But Madara has to show more of what he has to show that he is capable of winning.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Agreed, although this is manga section, you don't need to use spoilers.

[vane]

Agreed, although this is manga section, you don't need to use spoilers.

You know I feel like an idiot now for that. I was all over the place with threads earlier. But it is kinda funny. Lol.

[Masterofdeath]

Well, I feel that we must wait and see for Madara's powers. Until then I will remain quiet on the topic.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Well, I feel that we must wait and see for Madara's powers. Until then I will remain quiet on the topic.

It doesn't really matter.
Sarutobi had powers that should have overwhelmed Minato, but apparently they are the same strength, as said by Kishimoto.
And, Pein>Jiriaya>Itachi>Madara. Also, technically said by Kishimoto.

[Masterofdeath]

No, it was never stated that Pein was stronger than Madara. You assume based off of what Itachi has said, but Itachi clearly hated Madara which leads people to say things about people that aren't true. For example, when Neji said Naruto was pathetic and a horrible ninja but still lost ot him. Or when Sasuke said that Naruto was weak, but got the crap beat out of him by Naruto.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, it was never stated that Pein was stronger than Madara. You assume based off of what Itachi has said, but Itachi clearly hated Madara which leads people to say things about people that aren't true. For example, when Neji said Naruto was pathetic and a horrible ninja but still lost ot him. Or when Sasuke said that Naruto was weak, but got the crap beat out of him by Naruto.

It didn't have to be.
It's called Deductive Reasoning.

Pein is stronger than Jiriaya.
Jiriaya is Stronger than Itachi.
and Itachi is(weather you like it or not) stronger than Madara.

Itachi is calm, he's cool, and isn't the type to deal with his problems by talking down someone behind their back. And plus, he was telling the truth.
Itachi was trying to keep Sasuke away from Madara right?
And Sasuke was trying to find Madara right?
Then why would Itachi say Madara is weaker than him?
He knew Sasuke would inevitably go to Madara, or Madara would find him.
So why not tell the truth about him, and he did.
Because if you choose to not believe what he said here, you are also choosing not to believe the information you think is so correct. The fact that Madara lives forever. Because Itachi, was the one who brought it up as well. So denying this, is denying everything you know about Madara.

[Masterofdeath]

Itachi kept Sasuke away from Madara because Sasuke was weaker than Madara, and personality makes no difference about who is stronger than who. No, as stated before the shinobi's key trait is the ability to lie. It wouldn't be hard for Itachi to lie.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Itachi kept Sasuke away from Madara because Sasuke was weaker than Madara, and personality makes no difference about who is stronger than who. No, as stated before the shinobi's key trait is the ability to lie. It wouldn't be hard for Itachi to lie.

Yes, Sasuke is weaker than Madara.
And the shinobi's key trait is technically stealth.
But the only warriors are ninja so i suppose you're right.
I don't think I mentioned personality.
Unless you somehow interpreted me saying, Itachi isn't the type to talk down to someone for no reason, to mean something crazy or whatever.
Point is, Itachi was not lying.

[Masterofdeath]

My point is that you can say one is weaker than you, but not really mean it in terms of battle. For example, if I were to say I was quicker than you doesn't mean I could beat you in a race because quickness is only how fast you move and cut, but not overall speed. Itachi can be faster or smarter and still not be able to beat him in battle. It is quite simple really. Madara is a better strategiest and uchiha/fighter.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

My point is that you can say one is weaker than you, but not really mean it in terms of battle. For example, if I were to say I was quicker than you doesn't mean I could beat you in a race because quickness is only how fast you move and cut, but not overall speed. Itachi can be faster or smarter and still not be able to beat him in battle. It is quite simple really. Madara is a better strategiest and uchiha/fighter.

No he's not.
Itachi said he is no longer the greatest Uchiha.
Meaning, Itachi is, therefore Itachi is stronger, because to be considered the greatest, you have to be great overall, not just in one area.

[Masterofdeath]

By Itachi saying he is no longer the greatest Uchiha would mean that Itachi has lost respect for him, and feels that based off of his actions he should not be considered the best. By no means does this mean Itachi is stronger than Madara.

[vane]

No it wouldnt mean respect. It means the srtongest cause Itachi and Sasuke was talking about strength not respect. So Madara is no longer the strongest Uchiha. If he were 100% Madara then he could be the strongest uchiha but since he is not and he is a shell of his former self he is not the strongest.

[Masterofdeath]

Then who is the strongest uchiha because it isn't Itachi and clearly isn't Sasuke?

[Naruto's Dirty Diaper's]

I think pein would win cus he has the rinnegan

[vane]

Then who is the strongest uchiha because it isn't Itachi and clearly isn't Sasuke?

Well not Itachi anymore. But before he died he was stronger than Madara as it was stated by Itachi that Madara is a shell of his formed self and no longer deserves the title strongest Uchiha.And also said by Madara himself that he would have been dead by now if he hadnt kept a few secrets from Madara. Which meant that Itachi was stronger than Madara. So you can fight the facts that Itachi is stronger than Madara all you want but it has already been proven. Even by Madara. So if you dont take that as being truth enough then this debate needs to go back to Madara vs Pein. Because it is pointless to argue with some one who doesnt take facts as proof. Yet stands by his hopes which at this point in time is false.

[Masterofdeath]

A person saying he is better than the best is like me saying I am faster than Asafa Powell. It is simply he say she say. The only way I will believe Itachi is stronger is when they fight, and Madara loses (which will never happen.)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

By Itachi saying he is no longer the greatest Uchiha would mean that Itachi has lost respect for him, and feels that based off of his actions he should not be considered the best. By no means does this mean Itachi is stronger than Madara.

No it wouldnt mean respect. It means the srtongest cause Itachi and Sasuke was talking about strength not respect. So Madara is no longer the strongest Uchiha. If he were 100% Madara then he could be the strongest uchiha but since he is not and he is a shell of his former self he is not the strongest.

I think he did a better job than I could've done...^^

Then who is the strongest uchiha because it isn't Itachi and clearly isn't Sasuke?

Possibly Tobi, we don't know for sure but most likely is Tobi now.

A person saying he is better than the best is like me saying I am faster than Asafa Powell. It is simply he say she say. The only way I will believe Itachi is stronger is when they fight, and Madara loses (which will never happen.)

Madara isn't the best though.
And it doesn't matter weather or not you believe Itachi is stronger.
It has been said in the manga.
Accept that.

[Teh Bomb Bijuu]

I think he did a better job than I could've done...^^



Possibly Tobi, we don't know for sure but most likely is Tobi now.



Madara isn't the best though.
And it doesn't matter weather or not you believe Itachi is stronger.
It has been said in the manga.
Accept that.


UHm isnt Madara part of a head?:confused:

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Yes. For all we know.

[Teh Bomb Bijuu]

Yes. For all we know.

if he's part of a head how can he be the best

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I never said he was.
Unless you're referring to my previous post, in which I said he is most likely the best now that Itachi is dead.

[Teh Bomb Bijuu]

I never said he was.
Unless you're referring to my previous post, in which I said he is most likely the best now that Itachi is dead.

i was talking about previous post
me personally i think its Tobi

[Masterofdeath]

No, he is Tobi. Not your mythological theories. He is Madara as stated in the past 30 chapters.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, he is Tobi. Not your mythological theories. He is Madara as stated in the past 30 chapters.

He is Tobi as stated in the past 70 chapters.
And for someone who is accusing me of having a mythological theory, your's is much more farfetched than mine. Mine actually makes it POSSIBLE for Madara to be alive.
Which as proved in 401, Madara is neither Immortal, nor invincible, therefore is almost certainly ____dara.

[Masterofdeath]

Ok... that just adds on to the fact Madara is Tobi.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Ok... that just adds on to the fact Madara is Tobi.

How?
And because you said so isn't a reason.

[Masterofdeath]

You said Tobi has been saying he is Madara the past 70 chapters. Also, Itachi stated he was an invincible immortal. Why would Itachi lie? (you said he wouldn't earlier on)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

You said Tobi has been saying he is Madara the past 70 chapters. Also, Itachi stated he was an invincible immortal. Why would Itachi lie? (you said he wouldn't earlier on)

So basically you just make whatever the hell kind of situation you want with people's words?

I said he's been saying he's TOBI for the past 70 chapters.
Zetsu, ZETSU, has called him Tobi, PEIN, has called him Tobi.
Two people who supposedly no he is Madara, called him TOBI.

And Itachi stated Madara was an Invincible Immortal, it was revealed that everything Itachi said about Madara was a lie.

[Masterofdeath]

Then that means Itachi isn't stronger than Madara because you used a quote by Itachi to prove he was stronger than Madara right? (and you just said everything Itachi said was a lie, but earlier you said everything he said was true.) They called him Tobi because he didn't want others in akatsuki to know his true identity (Kisame- don't ask me why, Hidan, Kakuza, Deidara, Sasori.)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Then that means Itachi isn't stronger than Madara because you used a quote by Itachi to prove he was stronger than Madara right? (and you just said everything Itachi said was a lie, but earlier you said everything he said was true.) They called him Tobi because he didn't want others in akatsuki to know his true identity (Kisame- don't ask me why, Hidan, Kakuza, Deidara, Sasori.)

Actually, Zetsu called him Tobi in PRIVATE.

And Itachi is stronger than Madara.
Because I'm not only going by Itachi's word, I'm going by Madara's.
Madara said he would be dead if he told Itachi everything.

[Masterofdeath]

Yes, because Itachi would know the only way to kill him (and then would betray, and kill him to become the strongest Uchiha alive.) People do it all the time, for example pro athletes not telling their training tips to keep an advantage over others,

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Yes, because Itachi would know the only way to kill him (and then would betray, and kill him to become the strongest Uchiha alive.) People do it all the time, for example pro athletes not telling their training tips to keep an advantage over others,

No.
Just accept that you're wrong.
Don't make BS moves like this.

[Masterofdeath]

No, you just contradicted yourself by saying that what Itachi said was a lie, when you used that as evidence.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, you just contradicted yourself by saying that what Itachi said was a lie, when you used that as evidence.

No I didn't, I would have been if Madara didn't confirm what Itachi said about Madara no longer being the greatest Uchiha.

[Masterofdeath]

Madara didn't confirm that. He said if he had told Itachi everything Itachi would have killed him. Which doesn't mean Itachi is stronger, but that he could have been eventually if he discovered Madara's secrets.

[HyuugaHanabi]

Madara wins because he's the leader and Pein takes his orders.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Madara didn't confirm that. He said if he had told Itachi everything Itachi would have killed him. Which doesn't mean Itachi is stronger, but that he could have been eventually if he discovered Madara's secrets.

Yes, it actually does.
Madara was a threat to Konoha and the Uchiha clan, but Madara was also helping Itachi, so if Itachi were to kill him he couldn't complete his mission. But if Madara were to tell Itachi everything, his mission would thus be completable, therefore he would have no more use for Madara, and would then kill him.


Madara wins because he's the leader and Pein takes his orders.

Just because he's the leader doesn't mean he's the strongest.
And Pein also GIVES orders to Tobi.

[WhiteFang]

Pein has not been explicitly shown giving orders to Tobi. Now all this aside... there's something I'd like to point out:
4 tails Naruto thrashed Oro badly. Yamato easily supressed 4 tails. So will you imply that Yamato is stronger than Oro??? Oh hell no! So the Itachi-Madara stronger Uchiha thing is irrelevent here. I'd also like to point out very simply that in the long run, Madara is stronger than Itachi. It's because Itachi was somehow just surviving on medicine and also was going blind with MS use. And Madara since he has EMS would certainly not experience any blindness. Itachi, as he himself said would have surpassed Madara had he taken Sasuke's eyes and gained EMS, something which he did not do.

The battle is Pein Vs Madara. Lets focus back on this. Madara controlled the Kyuubi (going by Itachi's word and also certain other clues like how Kyuubi despises the sharingan and knows Madara... so he was probably controlled by him) Madara can travel at the speed of light and as vane pointed out... being an Uchiha can atleast use fire techs very well. Add to this the EMS. Madara is pretty eqipped to take on Pein. Pein can't attack someone he can't even see, he can't dodge either. Madara's space-time ninjutsu are as advanced as the fourth's as said in manga 395. I still feel Madara will win this. However I think it would be wise to wait a while so that we find out more about their abilities.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Pein has not been explicitly shown giving orders to Tobi. Now all this aside... there's something I'd like to point out:

I've better sure he has.

4 tails Naruto thrashed Oro badly. Yamato easily supressed 4 tails. So will you imply that Yamato is stronger than Oro??? Oh hell no! So the Itachi-Madara stronger Uchiha thing is irrelevent here.

No, actually it's not.
I fail to see your logic in that, Yamato has the ABILITY to suppress the Nine-Tails. Orochimaru does not.
Therefore by you're logic, because Madara and Itachi have the same basic Uchiha techniques, because Madara doesn't know(for the moment...) Tsukoyomi, Susano, and Ameratsu, he will win.
I'm sorry but that's just plain not true.

I'd also like to point out very simply that in the long run, Madara is stronger than Itachi. It's because Itachi was somehow just surviving on medicine and also was going blind with MS use. And Madara since he has EMS would certainly not experience any blindness. Itachi, as he himself said would have surpassed Madara had he taken Sasuke's eyes and gained EMS, something which he did not do.

I'm pretty sure he meant Madara's EYES.
But either way, Madara said himself Itachi would have(meaning 100%) killed him had Itachi knew everything.
And as you should know, Madara said himself, everything Itachi said was a lie, therefore we cannot directly trust anything Itachi said, without having Madara confirm it, and as of this moment, all that is confirmed by Madara is that he is weaker than Itachi.

The battle is Pein Vs Madara.

LOL It is!
I forgot.

Lets focus back on this. Madara controlled the Kyuubi (going by Itachi's word and also certain other clues like how Kyuubi despises the sharingan and knows Madara... so he was probably controlled by him) Madara can travel at the speed of light and as vane pointed out... being an Uchiha can atleast use fire techs very well. Add to this the EMS. Madara is pretty eqipped to take on Pein. Pein can't attack someone he can't even see, he can't dodge either. Madara's space-time ninjutsu are as advanced as the fourth's as said in manga 395. I still feel Madara will win this. However I think it would be wise to wait a while so that we find out more about their abilities.

First off, I'm doubting he even has EMS, in fact I am almost certain that he does not. EMS, also known as a Permanent Mangekyo Sharingan, but more commonly known as an Everlasting Mangekyo Sharingan. Neverending Sharingan. It would always be active...now here is a picture of the EMS...

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled-2.jpg

Here is a picture of "Madara's" sharingan.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled1.jpg

Notice the two pictures are not the same, he has a different sharingan, therefore, could not possibly have EMS.

And also, if his speed were an issue here...he wouldn't of needed to keep secrets from Itachi in order to live now would he?

[Masterofdeath]

Actually Madara does have EMS. I can prove it. It has been stated several times he gained EMS after taking his brothers eyes. So, how can Madara not have EMS? He is the only one to have it.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Actually Madara does have EMS. I can prove it. It has been stated several times he gained EMS after taking his brothers eyes. So, how can Madara not have EMS? He is the only one to have it.

That's not proving it.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled-2.jpg


^^EMS

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled1.jpg

^^"Madara's" Sharingan.

He does not have EMS.
As stated, EMS, is a Permanent, and otherwise EVERLASTING Mangekyo Sharingan.
Meaning it will never turn off or go away.
It is essentially Kakashi's sharingan but stronger.
If you show me a picture of Kakashi being able to turn his Sharingan on and off, then Tobi could have EMS.
But otherwise, EMS is something Tobi does not have.

[Masterofdeath]

It was stated that he had EMS. Also, just because you have EMS doesn't mean it doesn't tire you and doesn't mean you can't turn it off.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

It was stated that he had EMS.

Yet it was shown that he doesn't.
And it was stated that he had EMS over 100 years ago.

Also, just because you have EMS doesn't mean it doesn't tire you and doesn't mean you can't turn it off.

Yes it does...

The EMS, also known as a Permanent, or Everlasting Mangekyo Sharingan.
Now let me post the definition of EVERLASTING.

1. incessant; constantly recurring
2. lasting forever; eternal
3. lasting or continuing for an indefinitely long time
4. eternal duration; eternity

You get my point by now.
If he had EMS, we would have seen Tobi having EMS, but, we did not.

[Masterofdeath]

No, it means he has deactivated it for later use. He has EMS, but doesn't need to use it.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, it means he has deactivated it for later use. He has EMS, but doesn't need to use it.

I'm done with this. I'm gonna post this two more times.
I'll report you for spamming if you don't know when to quit.

The EMS, also known as a Permanent, or Everlasting Mangekyo Sharingan.
Now let me post the definition of EVERLASTING.

1. incessant; constantly recurring
2. lasting forever; eternal
3. lasting or continuing for an indefinitely long time
4. eternal duration; eternity

You get my point by now.
If he had EMS, we would have seen Tobi having EMS, but, we did not.

[WhiteFang]

No no majin. What i meant was that Madara does not face the side effect of blindness of MS since he took his bro's eyes... whereas Itachi wud go blind eventually. And MS can be activated at will by the user... it doesnt always stay active. Normally, it stays in the 3-tomoe state. Kashi is a special case.... he got an already active sharingan from Obito.. which being a non-Uchiha he cannot deactivate at will, hence he keeps his sharingan eye covered to preserve his chakra.

[Masterofdeath]

Thank you for the backup. He wasn't understanding the point.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No no majin. What i meant was that Madara does not face the side effect of blindness of MS since he took his bro's eyes... whereas Itachi wud go blind eventually. And MS can be activated at will by the user... it doesnt always stay active. Normally, it stays in the 3-tomoe state. Kashi is a special case.... he got an already active sharingan from Obito.. which being a non-Uchiha he cannot deactivate at will, hence he keeps his sharingan eye covered to preserve his chakra.

I know that.
And I also know that the MS can be deactivated.
But not the Mangekyo Sharingan that lasts forever.

1. incessant; constantly recurring
2. lasting forever; eternal
3. lasting or continuing for an indefinitely long time
4. eternal duration; eternity

That's the Definition of Everlasting, I realize it means the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan(now at least), and notice that Eternal is a Synonym for Everlasting, therefore meaning relatively the same thing.

If he has EMS, we would SEE it.

[Masterofdeath]

No, the eternal could also stand for everlasting sight and life which are both two supposed powers of the EMS. It doesn't mean it can't be deactivated.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, the eternal could also stand for everlasting sight and life which are both two supposed powers of the EMS. It doesn't mean it can't be deactivated.

Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan....a Mangekyo Sharingan that lasted forever.
Meaning he cannot turn it off.
Because why would he of had the Mangekyo Sharingan active, in the middle of nowhere?
Where they showed the EMS.
Why would he need the EMS active then?
He wouldn't.

[Masterofdeath]

No it can mean other things. You are miscomprehending the meaning of everlasting and taking it out of context. Also, he could deactivate it because its power takes alot of chakra.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No it can mean other things. You are miscomprehending the meaning of everlasting and taking it out of context. Also, he could deactivate it because its power takes alot of chakra.

In theory he could deactivate it.
But it's called the ETERNAL Mangekyo Sharingan.
A Mangekyo Sharingan that lasts forever, I've posted the definitions enough now, until it's shown that he has the EMS, we have no reason to believe he does other than we want to.
Sure it was said that he had it....over 100 years ago....

[WhiteFang]

I believe we should not look into the literal meaning here... But anyways.. just to verify I'll go and read the manga again. I believe there is no reason that Madara would lose his MS and the so called EMS is achieved by changing hosts and stops the user from going blind, allowing them to use the MS forever... thats what EMS implies; if we look at it from another point of view.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

I believe we should not look into the literal meaning here... But anyways.. just to verify I'll go and read the manga again. I believe there is no reason that Madara would lose his MS and the so called EMS is achieved by changing hosts and stops the user from going blind, allowing them to use the MS forever... thats what EMS implies; if we look at it from another point of view.

That confused me but I understand where you're coming from.
It's possible, I'm just saying because we saw him have the EMS activated in the middle of nowhere, the fact that it's called Eternal, and the fact that Tobi doesn't have it now, implies that he does not have it now, and who knows, it may eventually die out, cause it's not like everyone else has done it, so we don't really know for sure.

[WhiteFang]

Hmm... so we consider this on hiatus then till the manga clarifies this???

[Naruto's Dirty Diaper's]

madara would win

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Hmm... so we consider this on hiatus then till the manga clarifies this???

Yeah, that's a good idea xD

madara would win

Elaborate.

Itachi said Madara was weaker than him, and Madara confirmed this.
Madara cannot beat Itachi, Itachi cannot beat Jiriaya, and Jiriaya cannot beat Pein. Therefore Madara definitely cannot beat Pein.


(G2G, be back in an hour and a half)

[Masterofdeath]

Though Itachi never said he could beat Madara, I feel we shouldn't use battle experiences to compare people because Oro got beat by Sasuke, but couldn't beat Itachi who was killed by Sasuke. Kishi messes up fights so we can't compare the two based off of other battles; we can only judge by jutsu, speed, chakra, and strength.

[Masterofdeath]

Madara wins!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOl I got bored.

[Sandrock]

...thats alot of reading... alright... as for as the "eternal MS" goes... well... i'm on board with the implying that it can be "turned" off and its "eternal" because he will never loose his vision thus allowing him to use it endlessly... aside from chakra drainage from special eye moves...

Still ... Pein wins...

...If you're going to compare eye techniques.... is it stated anywhere that EMS is stronger then Rinnegan? I'vent seen it.. I've seen it stated that Peins eyes are the strongest... so Pein wins in that department...

... If your going to compare chakra ... he's got 5 bodies each with unique abilities... Madara has 1 body... Pein wins...

... Its 5 on 1... simple numbers... Pein wins...

Who gives orders to who in there group is imformation that is irrevelant to this fight...

Here comes the Pein baby....

[wang tang]

...thats alot of reading... alright... as for as the "eternal MS" goes... well... i'm on board with the implying that it can be "turned" off and its "eternal" because he will never loose his vision thus allowing him to use it endlessly... aside from chakra drainage from special eye moves...

Still ... Pein wins...

...If you're going to compare eye techniques.... is it stated anywhere that EMS is stronger then Rinnegan? I'vent seen it.. I've seen it stated that Peins eyes are the strongest... so Pein wins in that department...

... If your going to compare chakra ... he's got 5 bodies each with unique abilities... Madara has 1 body... Pein wins...

... Its 5 on 1... simple numbers... Pein wins...

Who gives orders to who in there group is imformation that is irrevelant to this fight...

Here comes the Pein baby....

you have apoint on alot of that,except,numbers dont win a battle,so 5 on 1 doesnt mean 5 wins...but as far as we currently know...pain would win

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Just for the record, there are 6 Bodies.
And numbers generally don't matter, if you are strong enough.
Madara is weaker than Itachi, who is weaker than Jiriaya, who got demolished by Pein.
Clearly Madara is not strong enough.

[Masterofdeath]

Pein is weaker than Jiraiya. Pein himself stated that had Jiraiya known his secret he would have certainly been killed. Madara more than likely knows Pein's secret.

[vane]

Pein is weaker than Jiraiya. Pein himself stated that had Jiraiya known his secret he would have certainly been killed. Madara more than likely knows Pein's secret.

Yes Pein did say that. Yet Pein still won. So no Jiraiya isnt stronger than Pein (as much as I hate to say it). And we dont have evidence that madara knows what the secret is. So no Pein still wins here.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Pein is weaker than Jiraiya. Pein himself stated that had Jiraiya known his secret he would have certainly been killed. Madara more than likely knows Pein's secret.

No one but Jiriaya knows Pein's secret.
If everyone knew the secret why would Jiriaya waste his last piece of life to send it to Tsunade? Why not try to escape?
Only Jiriaya knows Pein's secret, because only Jiriaya knows all 6 of those people.
And Pein is stronger than Jiriaya.
No one could demolish the fourth/fifth strongest Ninja to ever come out of Konoha so easily. Pein said that Jiriaya would have won if he figured out his secret. And since Tsunade or Naruto is gonna kill Pein, I have to say the Secret must be pretty big.

[Masterofdeath]

Madara more than likely knows the secret that is why Pein has not tried to kill Madara yet. Also, Jiraiya is stronger or Pein wouldn't have said he would have been kill (unless it is a lie, but that contradicts what you said about Itachi being stronger than Madara.)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Madara more than likely knows the secret that is why Pein has not tried to kill Madara yet.

Okay.
I'm not gonna respond.
Because I know why he doesn't know the secret.
More importantly YOU even know why.
Only Jiriaya knew all 6 of those people. Only Jiriaya had those experiences with those 6 people. Jiriaya, and ONLY Jiriaya, could have figured out Pein's secret.
If you're trying to tell me Jiriaya knew those 6 people, the same exact way Jiriaya did, and had the same exact experiences with them...then I have nothing else to say, this debate is as good as over.


[/QUOTE]Also, Jiraiya is stronger or Pein wouldn't have said he would have been kill (unless it is a lie, but that contradicts what you said about Itachi being stronger than Madara.)[/QUOTE]

...
You don't ever read what I say do you?
Tsunade isn't stronger than Pein.
And Naruto sure as hell isn't as strong as Pein.
So how could they beat them?
They use the secret.
By using the secret, one of them can beat Pein.
What you still aren't understanding is, just because Pein said Jiriaya would've been him using the secret...doesn't mean he's stronger.
Naruto would've beat Sasuke in the Valley of the End by using Kyuubi, but Sasuke is still the stronger person.
Jiriaya was getting his ass kicked.
The physical evidence that Pein is stronger is much stronger than the evidence that he wasn't.
There is no evidence of that he's weaker than Jiriaya.

[vane]

Madara more than likely knows the secret
No proof so no argument here. As of right now madara does not know the secret.
that is why Pein has not tried to kill Madara yet.Pein wants to follow for now because their interest's are on the same path for now. Later when they finally get all the Bijuu they probably wont be teamed up anymore.
Also, Jiraiya is stronger or Pein wouldn't have said he would have been kill (unless it is a lie, but that contradicts what you said about Itachi being stronger than Madara.)
But see Madara never killed Itachi. So Itachi is stronger. As it was stated by both Itachi and Madara. Also yes Pein did say that but Pein also killed Jiraiya. Had Pein not killed Jiraiya and Pein say that then we can assume that Jiraiya was stronger. But since Pein said that and yet won anyways Jiraiya is not stronger.

[Masterofdeath]

First off, Jiraiya allowed himself to be killed. It was for the greater good. (telling Peins secret) Secondly, Itachi isn't stronger than Madara. Majin you said yourself that everything Itachi told Sasuke is a lie, so your evidence being that Itachi said (which he never truly said-he said he isn't worthy; which is completely different as seen by the fact he hates Madara and thinks he is cruel because he goes against peace [Itachi hated war]). And to add to that Madara said he would have been killed had Itachi known his secrets, which is exactly what Pein said. If that makes Madara weaker than Itachi, but not Pein weaker than Jiraiya then that is a flat out contradiction. Respond to that.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

First off, Jiraiya allowed himself to be killed.

No he didn't.....

Secondly, Itachi isn't stronger than Madara. Majin you said yourself that everything Itachi told Sasuke is a lie, so your evidence being that Itachi said (which he never truly said-he said he isn't worthy; which is completely different as seen by the fact he hates Madara and thinks he is cruel because he goes against peace [Itachi hated war]).

Yes, I said that, but since you obviously don't remember, Madara confirmed this.

And to add to that Madara said he would have been killed had Itachi known his secrets, which is exactly what Pein said.

Correction, Madara said if Itachi knew everything, Itachi would have killed him, not his secrets, Information, not regarding Madara, regarding other things.

If that makes Madara weaker than Itachi, but not Pein weaker than Jiraiya then that is a flat out contradiction. Respond to that.

No, they are two completely different situations.
Madara - Information
Pein - Himself
If Itachi knew everything, not involving Madara, involving Information about things yet to be revealed, Itachi would have killed him.
If Jiriaya knew Pein's secret earlier, involving Pein, not involving information but a Secret, a secret that basically keeps Pein alive, Jiriaya would have killed him.
They are two completely different situations.

[Masterofdeath]

No, he said if he knew everything he would have died. That is the same thing as keeping secrets. Keeping a secret is retaining information so is not telling everything. So, the situations aren't different.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, he said if he knew everything he would have died.

http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd31/majinsharinganRTH/untitled-1.jpg

His exact words.

That is the same thing as keeping secrets. Keeping a secret is retaining information so is not telling everything. So, the situations aren't different.

Yes.
They are.
They're only not different to you because you lack the ability to admit you are wrong.
Let's try working on that.
Because instead of doing what I normally do and continuing for 12 pages, I'm done. I am done. That part of the debate, is over. Done with. Finished. Resolved. Etc....etc.....etc....

And one final time....
Madara was talking about Information, not Secrets involving himself.
Pein wasn't talking about Information, he was talking about secrets involving himself.
There is a difference.

[Masterofdeath]

OMG. You have no clue whether Madara was talking about himself or other things! You read the page over, and realize that Madara himself said he kept secrets from Itachi which is the exact same thing Pein said. How can it mean two different things. If Madara saying he would have been dead had he not kept secrets from Itachi means he is weaker than Itachi then so does Pein saying he would be dead had he not kept secrets from Jiraiya. If it doesn't mean this then you are contradicting yourself.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

OMG. You have no clue whether Madara was talking about himself or other things! You read the page over, and realize that Madara himself said he kept secrets from Itachi which is the exact same thing Pein said.

No, Madara and Itachi were working together, and during that time Madara kept things from Itachi.
Jiriaya hadn't seen Pein in many years, and chances are he wasn't close with any of them.

If Madara saying he would have been dead had he not kept secrets from Itachi means he is weaker than Itachi then so does Pein saying he would be dead had he not kept secrets from Jiraiya. If it doesn't mean this then you are contradicting yourself.

First off, look up the meaning of Contradictory, you're not using it right.
Secondly, Pein and Madara were talking about two different things.

[Masterofdeath]

You don't know that they were talking about two different things. Based off of what they said you are using a double standard because you are saying one thing equals this for one, but not for the other when they said or did the exact same thing. It is both biased and contradictary.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

You don't know that they were talking about two different things. Based off of what they said you are using a double standard because you are saying one thing equals this for one, but not for the other when they said or did the exact same thing. It is both biased and contradictary.

It's neither biased, nor contradictory, you're English is not good.
I hate all of them except Jiriaya, and I haven't contradicted myself yet.

Unless you are suggesting Madara has 6 different bodies that are all from Itachi's past then yes they were talking about different things.

[Masterofdeath]

No, the secrets about Pein are about him. However, we don't know what Madara meant in this situation. So you stating that Madara is weaker than Itachi based off of his statement, but Pein isn't when he said the same thing is contradictory because he could have meant a secret about himself.

[X-Drake]

the thing is, these battles are pointless

nagato
pein has 7 bodies, yes 7
the rin'ngan
is called a god
can perform all elemental ninjutsu and every ninjutsu to a huge extent
runs akatsuki
has 7 bijuu's in his statue

madara
sharingan, MS and EMS
time-space ninjutsu without seals
something behind the mask
owns akatsuki
lost to the first
can summon kyuubi but is in naruto

the thing is no one knows who is stronger but it is most likely pein

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, the secrets about Pein are about him. However, we don't know what Madara meant in this situation. So you stating that Madara is weaker than Itachi based off of his statement, but Pein isn't when he said the same thing is contradictory because he could have meant a secret about himself.

No, Madara didn't mean a secret about himself.
Again, Madara and Itachi were working together, but Madara was Itachi's enemy whom he most likely planned to betray, as he was a threat to Konoha. But Itachi needed information from Madara, therefore held off from killing him until he had it all. THAT'S what kept Madara alive. I know what I'm talking about. I've seen this enough time to recognize it.


the thing is, these battles are pointless

nagato
pein has 7 bodies, yes 7
the rin'ngan
is called a god
can perform all elemental ninjutsu and every ninjutsu to a huge extent
runs akatsuki
has 7 bijuu's in his statue

Pein has 6 Bodies....

[Masterofdeath]

No, it is most likely the leader of the akatsuki the owner (he wouldn't be the owner if he wasn't the strongest and didn't have the most authority- which he clearly has as Pein took orders from him.) Madara wins.

[Masterofdeath]

Also, responding to you Majin we don't know what Madara meant so you can stop acting like you do (unless your actually the writer of Naruto) and Madara is stronger as Medicine was the only thing keeping him alive, and he would not have been able to take a full strength Tobi/ Madara.

[Katon]

Pein has 6 bodies, hence the "6 Paths of Pein". Also, he takes orders from Madara, which already means he is probably less powerful than him. Also, about the Bijuu, Pein didn't physically go out HIMSELF and catch all of them single handedly, that is what Akastuki is for. -_-

[Masterofdeath]

Thank you for your support. :)

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, it is most likely the leader of the akatsuki the owner (he wouldn't be the owner if he wasn't the strongest and didn't have the most authority- which he clearly has as Pein took orders from him.) Madara wins.

Madara is the Founder of Akatsuki, but Madara and Pein share Leadership of it, Madara has ordered Pein around, and Pein has ordered Madara around. Therefore you're logic is completely taken apart by that statement.
And again, just because he's the leader/founder doesn't mean he's the strongest.
And Madara doesn't win, get over it.

[Masterofdeath]

No, Madara does win. Madara has only taken orders he told Pein to give so that doesn't count. Madara is the big cheese and the strongest.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

No, Madara does win. Madara has only taken orders he told Pein to give so that doesn't count. Madara is the big cheese and the strongest.

*sigh*
Madara doesn't win...Madara didn't give the orders to Pein....he was with Deidara then....yes it does count....blah....blah....blah....You're right....I'm wrong....yeah yeah I've heard it before, whatever.

Madara will not win this.
Pein>Jiriaya>Itachi>Madara

[Masterofdeath]

Your statements/ theories are all messed up. I am tired of arguing.

[X-Drake]

for everyone
reread the manga, jiraya noticed he meet all the shinobi before including yahiko but nagato was not their, and nagato has black hair
so nagato is controling the six peins as puppets thats how they have his rinngan

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/05/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/07/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/08/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/09/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/15/

hell the whole chapter
but mostly here
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/380/04/
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/381/14/

and more figure it out

nagato is nagato and he leads pein like akatsuki

[Masterofdeath]

Ok, we all knew that.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Your statements/ theories are all messed up. I am tired of arguing.

Wow, again, unbelievable.

[X-Drake]

jiraya said nagato is not one of those six but they all have the rin'ngan and the six said after jiraya lets head back and report to the head sage

so nagato is controlling the six and is not one of them

[Masterofdeath]

That counters what Majin said? I am confused. He has six bodies, and the seventh (Nagato) is a theory (as Pein said Nagato was dead).

[X-Drake]

no he said yahiko is dead we are pein

and yahiko said i am pein not yahiko
jiraya beat up or tought them all

they are pein and nagato was not their

yahiko is the main pein as it was his best freind, he controls the rain in the country and does the bijuu extraction

[Masterofdeath]

Idk and can't really argue anymore. Matt tired me out. So, I can't really argue anyway because I think you're right now that I think about it.

[vane]

First off, Jiraiya allowed himself to be killed. It was for the greater good. (telling Peins secret) Secondly, Itachi isn't stronger than Madara. Majin you said yourself that everything Itachi told Sasuke is a lie, so your evidence being that Itachi said (which he never truly said-he said he isn't worthy; which is completely different as seen by the fact he hates Madara and thinks he is cruel because he goes against peace [Itachi hated war]). And to add to that Madara said he would have been killed had Itachi known his secrets, which is exactly what Pein said. If that makes Madara weaker than Itachi, but not Pein weaker than Jiraiya then that is a flat out contradiction. Respond to that.

I know this was a earlier post but I never contradicted anything. I said that Pein did say that but Pein still beat him regardless. Which means pein is stronger since he won. Now the thing with madara and Itahi is that is that they both said that Madara was weaker than Itachi (indirectly stated just to add). But Itachi and Madara never fought. So wih both of them saying that Itachi would have won and since they never fought Itachi is stronger since hey both said it.

So come on. You should know better than to say I contradicted myself. I go over everything I say more than once instead of just throwing out stuff I believe to be true.

But also wanted to add. When did people change their mind again. I thought we had it down that Pein wins anyways because of Madara's lack of jutsu evidence. Madara doesnt have a single tech thus far that can actually defeat Pein. Where as Pein has shown a good number.

[Masterofdeath]

People changed their minds to Madara winning when he told his story of how he was on par in terms of power with Shodaime (1st Hokage). Also, he is the leader of Akatsuki (whether we like it or not) which based off of ranking makes him the strongest (he is higher ranked than Pein.)

[Muffin]

People changed their minds to Madara winning when he told his story of how he was on par in terms of power with Shodaime (1st Hokage). Also, he is the leader of Akatsuki (whether we like it or not) which based off of ranking makes him the strongest (he is higher ranked than Pein.)

Then please explain why he said to Pein "You capture him. As the leader, failure will not be accepted."
Directly referring to Pein as the leader when he wasn't the leader?

[Doctor Octogonapus]

Then please explain why he said to Pein "You capture him. As the leader, failure will not be accepted."
Directly referring to Pein as the leader when he wasn't the leader?

Since he's not on Muffin let's continue this.
There's about a 90% chance he will say something along the lines of,

Well that was just an act, or He's the real leader or whatever.
Clearly not true because Konan knows as much as Pein, because the main Pein is Konan's Brother or Very Old Friend.


People changed their minds to Madara winning when he told his story of how he was on par in terms of power with Shodaime (1st Hokage). Also, he is the leader of Akatsuki (whether we like it or not) which based off of ranking makes him the strongest (he is higher ranked than Pein.)

He wasn't on par, I believe he got his ass kicked, and Shodamine managed to WALK AWAY.
And no, weather you like it or not, just because he is the FOUNDER, doesn't mean he's the strongest. So I'd appreciate it if you would quit saying that in every debate, there's no point in continuing on about something that isn't true.

[Muffin]

Since he's not on Muffin let's continue this.
There's about a 90% chance he will say something along the lines of,

Well that was just an act, or He's the real leader or whatever.
Clearly not true because Konan knows as much as Pein, because the main Pein is Konan's Brother or Very Old Friend.

The odds Pein would need to still act like he was the leader infront of Konan who knew who Madara was is extremely slim. Only 4 in Akatsuki knew Madara was even still alive, because it's not like creating an organisation doesn't mean someone can't become a new leader when he is superior in every way.

[Doctor Octogonapus]

The odds Pein would need to still act like he was the leader infront of Konan who knew who Madara was is extremely slim. Only 4 in Akatsuki knew Madara was even still alive, because it's not like creating an organisation doesn't mean someone can't become a new leader when he is superior in every way.

Good comeback xDD. He'll probably come back with something like Oh Well, Madara still wins, or something like that.

[vane]

People changed their minds to Madara winning when he told his story of how he was on par in terms of power with Shodaime (1st Hokage). Also, he is the leader of Akatsuki (whether we like it or not) which based off of ranking makes him the strongest (he is higher ranked than Pein.)

Well it doesnt matter as nobody knows what Madara can do. Madara hasnt shown anything that makes him capable of defeating Pein. So with no facts to show that Madara has any types of effective attack jutsu besides Katon attacks (which we still havnt seen him use) he doesnt have what it takes to win.

[WhiteFang]

So far in the manga, no one has been able to touch Madara; the guy can travel at the speed of light, so presently there is no way he can lose either. And the guy seems to have a rather illustrious past... so I think we need to wait n see what he can do now.

[vane]

But moving fast can only last for so long. Pein waits out a good bit of Madara's Teleporting and Madara will run out of chakra. The battle has to have an end as of right now. And I far from believe it will be a stale mate.

[Masterofdeath]

Okay, I am willing to put money on a person who was reffered to as the greatest uchiha. He was considered the strongest uchiha. The Uchiha who was able to compete with Shodaime (the fact he was able to fight him and not die is more than I can say for Pein). Also, don't ever put words in my mouth majin. Look at the manga, and it was clearly shown that both Konan and Pein took orders from Madara/Tobi. Don't say it was different because we all saw it.

[vane]

I dont know why you use the Shodaime fight in this. Shodaime wasnt even the strongest Hokage. He was like 3 strongest from the Hokages. But anyways. It doesnt matter wh the leader is. I dont understand why you think cause he is the leader he is the strongest. Thats like saying Bush is the strongest person in America. But in all truth a 10 year old could possibly beat him in a fight. And also you said the magical words
who was reffered
Key word. Was. He was considered all those things. But not anymore. Also he doesnt have any techs to win this fight. Or are you completely forgeting that.

[WhiteFang]

But moving fast can only last for so long. Pein waits out a good bit of Madara's Teleporting and Madara will run out of chakra. The battle has to have an end as of right now. And I far from believe it will be a stale mate.

Teleportation hardly seems to effect him. He'll be able to slit Pein's throat with a kunai even. Madara won't let Pein wait it out. If Pein can't hit him and can't block him, he certainly can't beat him.

[vane]

Yes hardly but it still does as it most certanly takes chakra. Also Madara would have to kill all the Peins basically at once or he will not win. And I as everyone else knows that Pein wont be sneaked up on. Regardless if Madara can teleport. Pein has 6 points of view. Madara wont be able toteleport and slit Peins throat or anything. But all Pein has to do is just summon 1 beast and play the waiting game as Madara will eventually run out of chakra. Cause so far that is about the only thing we know he can do. Is just get away. He can only get away for so long. Until he has to fight. And if he goes toe to toe with Pein he will lose.

[Yondaime The Yellow Flash]

I would say Pein ^^

[Masterofdeath]

Yes hardly but it still does as it most certanly takes chakra. Also Madara would have to kill all the Peins basically at once or he will not win. And I as everyone else knows that Pein wont be sneaked up on. Regardless if Madara can teleport. Pein has 6 points of view. Madara wont be able toteleport and slit Peins throat or anything. But all Pein has to do is just summon 1 beast and play the waiting game as Madara will eventually run out of chakra. Cause so far that is about the only thing we know he can do. Is just get away. He can only get away for so long. Until he has to fight. And if he goes toe to toe with Pein he will lose.

Let me put it like this. We know Madara can teleport both his body and body parts with relative ease. We know he can do it several times without even having any revelation of exhaustion (just watch his fight with Naruto and you will see no exhaustion at all). So, even if Pein were able to see where Madara went Madara would be moving so fast that Pein couldn't even respond. Thus, Madara could use a basic fire jutsu or slice Peins/one of the six bodies throats and not even get hurt because when another Pein attacked him he could easily avoid it through teleportion. To add to this Pein couldn't revive those bodies if they were permanently killed (damaged beyond repair), taken away from Peins general area, or had the
version of Peins body that revived the others killed. I know that only one can revive the others because Jiraiya made the revelation in his battle that each version of Pein could only do on type of jutsu. One absorbed, the other revived, one was a more taijutsu varied
shinobi, one was a master of summoning, the other was varied in ninjutsu, and the final version's powers weren't revealed, but more than likely was good at genjutsu.

[vane]

We know Madara can teleport both his body and body parts with relative ease.Yes but takes chakra regardless.
We know he can do it several times without even having any revelation of exhaustion (just watch his fight with Naruto and you will see no exhaustion at all).You dont have to tell me the fight I rememebr it.(not trying to sound lke an ass).
So, even if Pein were able to see where Madara went Madara would be moving so fast that Pein couldn't even respond. Its not the he cant responde. Its that Madara cant sneak up on him.
Thus, Madara could use a basic fire jutsu or slice Peins/one of the six bodies throatsFire jutsu alone wont do anything to Pein. Actually that will take more charka. And Madara would have to simultaniusly slice all 6 throats at the same time. But not never once did we see in a fight someone who is a high calber character get beatin by a kunai. Pein wont lose to a kunai no matter what anyone believes.
To add to this Pein couldn't revive those bodies if they were permanently killed (damaged beyond repair), Those swords that Jiraiya used were pretty big. I would say that it were nearly big enough to almost cut the Pein bodies in half. So would you not consider that beond repair? So far the extent of damage is irrelavent as they were cut pretty good. But when they reappeared in that fight they didnt have a scratch on them. So that makes damage irrelevant.
or had the
version of Peins body that revived the others killed.But here is another thing he has a 1 out of 6 chance to be able to kill the reviving one. And when Madara appears to try and kill that one what makes you thnik the other 5 will just stand there and let Madara kill him.

But all I am saying is that that little teleporting thing is not going to beat someone at Pein caliber.

[Masterofdeath]

The other 5 can try to stop Madara from killing one, but it won't matter because he can teleport his body in and out making him unhitable. Also, one direct hit by a great fireball jutsu can defeat the majority of shinobi's (only when catching them off guard i.e. before Pein can respond.) You can try to say that one of Peins level can't be killed by a kunai, but that simply isn't true. There have been several powerful shinobi who have been killed by swords, and cuts. Also, when Jiraiya cut them with swords they did die but were revived by the revival shinobi. This just shows that Pein can be killed by a mere blade. Not to mention when I said damaged beyond repair I meant completely disinigrated to ashes.

[Muffin]

The other 5 can try to stop Madara from killing one, but it won't matter because he can teleport his body in and out making him unhitable. Also, one direct hit by a great fireball jutsu can defeat the majority of shinobi's (only when catching them off guard i.e. before Pein can respond.) You can try to say that one of Peins level can't be killed by a kunai, but that simply isn't true. There have been several powerful shinobi who have been killed by swords, and cuts. Also, when Jiraiya cut them with swords they did die but were revived by the revival shinobi. This just shows that Pein can be killed by a mere blade. Not to mention when I said damaged beyond repair I meant completely disinigrated to ashes.

It's not that Pein was killed by a mere blade it's that his bodies were completely and utterly stunned and unable to move at a cellular level. The great fireball jutsu would just be absorbed by fat Pein. And so far Pein has shown to be untouched by some of the most powerful techniques used thus far.

[Masterofdeath]

True, but I mean that just because Pein is strong doesn't mean he can't be killed by a blade.

[WhiteFang]

And so far Pein has shown to be untouched by some of the most powerful techniques used thus far.

same can be said of Madara. AMATERASU fired at point blank could not touch him. Rasengan sneaked up on him could not touch him. Even after being completely surrounded by thousands of bugs he escaped without a scratch and no exhaustion.

[Masterofdeath]

So true. We can't assume that one is ammune (sorry about spelling I am in a rush to a track meet) to a jutsu or weapon because he is strong. If that was the case some shinobi would be untouchable.