Itachi : Hero or Villan

[MinatoNamikaze]

Ok so i know there are mixed opinions of Itachi. Some people think he is the biggest hero of Konoha (thats me :D ) and many others think him killing his clan was wrong and uncalled for even in light of the situation. What do you think of him?

[9TailedBijuu]

I think hero is a wrong word to describe him because he killed a lot of innocent people, but still he is a guy who saved the leaf village and prevented the war braking out between diffrent countries so he deserves respect and appreciation.

[D.I.Y Death]

I'd call him the unfortunately necessary anti hero.
He did what needed to be done at the cost of killing his own family, lover and everyone he knew.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I think hero is a wrong word to describe him because he killed a lot of innocent people, but still he is a guy who saved the leaf village and prevented the war braking out between diffrent countries so he deserves respect and appreciation.

Did you read the part about the uchiha planning a que deta. None of them were innocent

[D.I.Y Death]

Did you read the part about the uchiha planning a que deta. None of them were innocent

I doubt all of them were in on that. Especially the young kids, but because if you leave lose ends unchecked they can unravel the whole cloth so they decided to have them killed too.

[Marley]

I could have sworn i made a thread similar to this one.

Anyways i think he's kind of a hero deep inside.

I mean he killed his clan in order to protect the village.

but, i don't know if that's good or evil

[Uzuki]

I'm going to have to say Itachi is a sexy beast.

[Hashirama]

As a Shinobi, he is a hero.

As a human, he is not. Simple as that.

[Uzuki]

As a Shinobi, he is a hero.

As a human, he is not. Simple as that.

I'm pretty sure you stop being human when your eyes turn red and can breath fire.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I'm pretty sure you stop being human when your eyes turn red and can breath fire.

lol nice:lmao:

IMO Itahci is a hero. He didnt kill them out of hatred, he killed them becasue they were going to do something evil. Yes Kiling is wrong, but in this case, I believe it was justified. Let me put it to you this way,

you know a person is going to come and kill your mother/father/sibling. Its beyond a doubt that that would happen. Since the police cant do anything, you ddecide to kill him before he kills your parents. are you evil? Or are you a hero for saving your family.

[D.I.Y Death]

lol nice:lmao:

IMO Itahci is a hero. He didnt kill them out of hatred, he killed them becasue they were going to do something evil. Yes Kiling is wrong, but in this case, I believe it was justified. Let me put it to you this way,

you know a person is going to come and kill your mother/father/sibling. Its beyond a doubt that that would happen. Since the police cant do anything, you ddecide to kill him before he kills your parents. are you evil? Or are you a hero for saving your family.

dum dum dum. And here is what I call they gray areas of life, where there are no solid answers and you have to decide on the lesser of two evils.

[PuffDaMagicDragon]

to the leaf village hes a hero though barely anyone from the village knows, but to the uchiha hes probably a villan....though they were sorta evil too

[MinatoNamikaze]

dum dum dum. And here is what I call they gray areas of life, where there are no solid answers and you have to decide on the lesser of two evils.

EXACTLY. thats the problem. It comes down to ethics and morals. Everyones evil and everyones righteuos, are going to be different. Thats why I made the thread. To see how certain people think :)

[Xai]

I don't think itachi was evil, not sure if you can say he was good either, i believe he did what had to be done, simple as that.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I don't think itachi was evil, not sure if you can say he was good either, i believe he did what had to be done, simple as that.

Very respectable answer:D

[Honey]

first of all minato namikaze is right. people were going to do bad stuff to him
and so he spared his little bro because he wasnt goin to do anything bad to him


second of all he did wat he was supposed to do to protect sasuke.he would always sasy u lack hatred because in my opinon he was trying to tell him to stay at the leaf village. but if stupid oro wasnt taunting him he would have never went to be bad

[MinatoNamikaze]

first of all minato namikaze is right. people were going to do bad stuff to him
and so he spared his little bro because he wasnt goin to do anything bad to him


second of all he did wat he was supposed to do to protect sasuke.he would always sasy u lack hatred because in my opinon he was trying to tell him to stay at the leaf village. but if stupid oro wasnt taunting him he would have never went to be bad

Yes but Itachi said that because he wanted sasuke to be stronger so he could protect himself from Madara. But thanks for agreeing.

[nine tailed fox 099]

i say itachi is good8)

[MinatoNamikaze]

i say itachi is good8)

Cool. Thanks for agreeing with me

[nine tailed fox 099]

Cool. Thanks for agreeing with me

np

[Raikage's left hand]

I think he's just a tool.

If he didn't kill them all Danzou would've got someone else to do it.

[naruto_pwns_emosasuke]

Hero or villain? Oversimplified i think.


his actions were neither heroic or villanous. His actions were dictated by others in all aspects. It was his clan mates that wanted to start a pointless war, it was the elders that decided that killing the clan was the best course of action. So, did itatchi make the right decision following orders or did her make the wrong decision? This is really where ur opinions can vary. I dont really find wat he did heroic or villanous. He did what he had to do in his mind. I think he made a good call. He prevented the death of far more ppl by takign the course of action he did.

[Haruno Sakura]

He's both. =o

[MinatoNamikaze]

I think he's just a tool.

If he didn't kill them all Danzou would've got someone else to do it.

Very Wrong. It has been stated that only a Sharingan would be a match for a sharingan.

[Hashirama]

It has been stated that only a Sharingan would be a match for a sharingan.

I think what Madara said is bullshit. Sasuke was raped by Gaara, if Naruto didn't save him, he would've been dead long ago, and the same for the Hachibi's battle, if Team Taka didn't save him, he would've been dead. Madara lost to Shodai, Uchiha lost to Senju. Obito got killed by a fodder.

[MinatoNamikaze]

I think what Madara said is bullshit. Sasuke was raped by Gaara, if Naruto didn't save him, he would've been dead long ago, and the same for the Hachibi's battle, if Team Taka didn't save him, he would've been dead. Madara lost to Shodai, Uchiha lost to Senju. Obito got killed by a fodder.

He means as a whole. Only a person with the sharingan would be able to beat the whole uchiha clan. To tell you the truth, except for madara, no uchiha have ever lost to a non-uchiha from what we have seen

BTW Senju never beat the uchiha

[Hashirama]

He means as a whole. Only a person with the sharingan would be able to beat the whole uchiha clan. To tell you the truth, except for madara, no uchiha have ever lost to a non-uchiha from what we have seen

Meh, if that one is strong enough, he will be able to beat the whole Uchiha clan. No Uchiha ever lost to a Non-Uchiha? What about Sasuke? and Obito?


BTW Senju never beat the uchiha

In the end, the Uchihas became Senju dogs. What I'm trying to say here is that Uchiha and Senju fought a lot of battles against each other, and they were equals. Do you think that in all those battles, no Uchiha has ever lost to a Senju?

[Katsumi]

Hmmm, he's actually a villain for me.

[D.I.Y Death]

Meh, if that one is strong enough, he will be able to beat the whole Uchiha clan. No Uchiha ever lost to a Non-Uchiha? What about Sasuke? and Obito?



In the end, the Uchihas became Senju dogs. What I'm trying to say here is that Uchiha and Senju fought a lot of battles against each other, and they were equals. Do you think that in all those battles, no Uchiha has ever lost to a Senju?

Very good point and I agree with you.

[Raikage's left hand]

He means as a whole. Only a person with the sharingan would be able to beat the whole uchiha clan. To tell you the truth, except for madara, no uchiha have ever lost to a non-uchiha from what we have seen

BTW Senju never beat the uchiha




I think what Madara said is bullshit. Sasuke was raped by Gaara, if Naruto didn't save him, he would've been dead long ago, and the same for the Hachibi's battle, if Team Taka didn't save him, he would've been dead. Madara lost to Shodai, Uchiha lost to Senju. Obito got killed by a fodder.

Reposting what Hashirama posted because from what i can tell you didn't even read it.

[D.I.Y Death]

Reposting what Hashirama posted because from what i can tell you didn't even read it.

what the...I agree with the part I quoted but that completely contradicts the first statement.

[ghostrider]

this is a dumb thread we all know that itachi is a villain

[MinatoNamikaze]

Meh, if that one is strong enough, he will be able to beat the whole Uchiha clan. No Uchiha ever lost to a Non-Uchiha? What about Sasuke? and Obito?

sasuke isint dead, and Obito died from a boulder, not becasue he lost the battle. Besides Im talking about master sharingan users, not so much level one or twos



In the end, the Uchihas became Senju dogs.

Yes I know but that was from political issues, not so much stregnth.


What I'm trying to say here is that Uchiha and Senju fought a lot of battles against each other, and they were equals. Do you think that in all those battles, no Uchiha has ever lost to a Senju?

No im not saying that. Ofcourse people on both sides died. Sharingan users are by no means invincible. See its a very controversial topic becasue at one point someone says you cant beat a sharingan user with out the sharingan but then you have the first beating Madara (however we dont know the content of the battle. I believe it wasnt a full out battle and that Madara shouldnt have lost for some unknown reason). Itachi, sasuke, Chiyo, Madara and Kakashi I belive have all stated that you cant beat a sharingan user. Like chiyo and Itahci said, if your one v one against a sharingan user, your only option is to run. However 2 v 1 and attacking from behind is the only option. I believe the truth is somewhere in between those two facts.

However, minus the Madara thing, an uchiha has never lost to a none uchiha

[Hashirama]

this is a dumb thread we all know that itachi is a villain

Big idiot. http://i316.photobucket.com/albums/mm342/hashirama_2008/faceplam.png

I bet you don't read the manga.

[ghostrider]

oh i do i read that itachi kiled his entire clan i read that he tried to kill sasuke i read that he kidnapped gaara solution he is a villain

[Hashirama]

oh i do i read that itachi kiled his entire clan i read that he tried to kill sasuke i read that he kidnapped gaara solution he is a villain

But you didn't read that he did it for the lulz the sake of Konoha and the world?

I believe that Itachi is not a HERO. But from what you said, I think that you don't read the manga.

@MinatoNamikaze: I'll reply to you later, I'm not in a mood for debating now. =D

[MinatoNamikaze]

But you didn't read that he did it for the lulz the sake of Konoha and the world?

I believe that Itachi is not a HERO. But from what you said, I think that you don't read the manga.

@MinatoNamikaze: I'll reply to you later, I'm not in a mood for debating now. =D

NP im calling it quites for tonight anyway

[Hashirama]

what the...I agree with the part I quoted but that completely contradicts the first statement.

Huh? :S


NP im calling it quites for tonight anyway

Thank you kind sir.

[ghostrider]

fine but i do read the f***** manga

[Hashirama]

fine but i do read the f***** manga

Maybe it's not the same manga that we read. =D

Just kidding. But I really thought that you're an anime-watcher that came to the manga section by mistake or something.

[Raikage's left hand]

what the...I agree with the part I quoted but that completely contradicts the first statement.

I know i was referring to minato's comment which was also quoted


No im not saying that. Ofcourse people on both sides died. Sharingan users are by no means invincible. See its a very controversial topic becasue at one point someone says you cant beat a sharingan user with out the sharingan but then you have the first beating Madara (however we dont know the content of the battle. I believe it wasnt a full out battle and that Madara shouldnt have lost for some unknown reason). Itachi, sasuke, Chiyo, Madara and Kakashi I belive have all stated that you cant beat a sharingan user. Like chiyo and Itahci said, if your one v one against a sharingan user, your only option is to run. However 2 v 1 and attacking from behind is the only option. I believe the truth is somewhere in between those two facts.

And? They said that Neji could not be beaten by anyone in the chunnin exam. Just because someone says something as ludicrous as a Sharingan user not being able to be beaten by a non sharingan doesn't make it right. The strongest Uchiha there was got his ass handed to him by Hashirama on more than one occasion. Kakashi has sharingan yet he just narrowly avoided becoming food for Kakazu. Gai could definitely beat a sharingan user. Pein would stomp the hell out of any and all uchiha's. Uchiha's are not so amazing that they cannot be beaten by anyone.

[naruto_pwns_emosasuke]

^^^ agreed


A lot of those statements about the sharingan were made in the opening few parts of the series. Maybe for a genin the mantra "dont fight one on one with a sharingan user" could save their life. But when they reach a higher level maybe they will have the skills and smarts to defeat a sharingan user in 1v1 combat. However the easiest way to defeat a sharingan user woudl still be with a sharingan user. It would nullify the baseline abilities of the sharingan and turn things over to true skill as a shinobi. So while u may say they didnt need a sharingan user to defeat the uchiha's it was by far the most economical way to do it. One man with a far superior sharingan vs the rest with 2-3 dot sharingans. On top of that itatchi was a better overall shinobi than the rest of the uchihas. So did they need to send in itatchi? no. was it the smartest choice? yes.

[MinatoNamikaze]

And? They said that Neji could not be beaten by anyone in the chunnin exam. Just because someone says something as ludicrous as a Sharingan user not being able to be beaten by a non sharingan doesn't make it right. The strongest Uchiha there was got his ass handed to him by Hashirama on more than one occasion. Kakashi has sharingan yet he just narrowly avoided becoming food for Kakazu. Gai could definitely beat a sharingan user. Pein would stomp the hell out of any and all uchiha's. Uchiha's are not so amazing that they cannot be beaten by anyone.

Its been stated many times. Believe me I know that Pein can beat Sasuke, im not trying to kid myself. But it has been sayed in many occasions that they cannot be beaten. After school today, Ill find you all the pages in the manga.

Take this for example. Noone could beat oro with out putting up an awsome fight. It would be a cake walk for noone (including Pein). Oro is strong as much as we hate to admit it. He was a formidable threat to Konoha by himself, However, Itachi took him out in 5 seconds, TWICE. That right there shows you the "trump card" nature of the sharingan and that is why Oro wanted it so bad.

[Hashirama]

sasuke isint dead, and Obito died from a boulder, not becasue he lost the battle. Besides Im talking about master sharingan users, not so much level one or twos

Sasuke isn't dead, so what? He would've died if they didn't save him, it's not like he will pull a Hidan. The boulder that crushed Obito's face was part of the fodder's jutsu.

You said "Only a Sharingan is a match for a Sharingan", you didn't say "Only a master Sharingan is a match for a master Sharingan". Plus, Sasuke is a master Sharingan, and does have the Mangekyo, and Madara said that his eyes will surpass Itachi blah blah blah. Yet, he almost died three times against Hachibi.





Yes I know but that was from political issues, not so much stregnth.

I don't want to argue about this. It's irrelevant to the current topic.




No im not saying that. Ofcourse people on both sides died. Sharingan users are by no means invincible. See its a very controversial topic becasue at one point someone says you cant beat a sharingan user with out the sharingan but then you have the first beating Madara (however we dont know the content of the battle. I believe it wasnt a full out battle and that Madara shouldnt have lost for some unknown reason). Itachi, sasuke, Chiyo, Madara and Kakashi I belive have all stated that you cant beat a sharingan user. Like chiyo and Itahci said, if your one v one against a sharingan user, your only option is to run. However 2 v 1 and attacking from behind is the only option. I believe the truth is somewhere in between those two facts.

However, minus the Madara thing, an uchiha has never lost to a none uchiha

So, if you know that a lot of Sharingan users died against a Non-Sharingan users, then you admit that what Madara said is shit.

The reason why you think that Madara shouldn't have lost for a certain reason is because you're in love with the Sharingan, my friend. Face it, Madara, the strongest Uchiha, with the Kyuubi, the strongest Bijuu, fought Shodai and lost. Don't try to make up execuses for him. He also said that he admired Shodai. He wouldn't have admired him if Shodai wasn't stronger than him.

When Kakashi and Chiyo said that they can't beat a Sharingan user 1 vs 1, they were facing Uchiha Itachi, the man who killed his clan. Anyway, I don't give a shit about what they said. If you're strong enough, you can beat an Uchiha. That's that.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Sasuke isn't dead, so what? He would've died if they didn't save him, it's not like he will pull a Hidan. The boulder that crushed Obito's face was part of the fodder's jutsu.

Obito wouldnt have died had he not moved to save Kakashi


You said "Only a Sharingan is a match for a Sharingan", you didn't say "Only a master Sharingan is a match for a master Sharingan". Plus, Sasuke is a master Sharingan, and does have the Mangekyo, and Madara said that his eyes will surpass Itachi blah blah blah. Yet, he almost died three times against Hachibi.

But he didnt die did he :D


So, if you know that a lot of Sharingan users died against a Non-Sharingan users, then you admit that what Madara said is shit.

Its a very confusing statement I know. But there is plenty of evidence too. Uchiha were said to be the strognest Clan ever, etc.


The reason why you think that Madara shouldn't have lost for a certain reason is because you're in love with the Sharingan, my friend. Face it, Madara, the strongest Uchiha, with the Kyuubi, the strongest Bijuu, fought Shodai and lost. Don't try to make up execuses for him. He also said that he admired Shodai. He wouldn't have admired him if Shodai wasn't stronger than him.

no thats not what im saying. Im saying that its possible that 1st didnt easily win. There may have been more to it, like the sasuke Itachi fight. Maybe 1st gained control over Kyubi or something strange happend. WHo knows. Well find out soon.


When Kakashi and Chiyo said that they can't beat a Sharingan user 1 vs 1, they were facing Uchiha Itachi, the man who killed his clan. Anyway, I don't give a shit about what they said. If you're strong enough, you can beat an Uchiha. That's that.

Well if you dont accept manga then none of the points are valid. People always choose to say i dont care what the manga says when talking about Itahci, or the sharingan.

[Hashirama]

Obito wouldnt have died had he not moved to save Kakashi

He died though.




But he didnt die did he :D

Well, Madara is a pretty fast runner.




Its a very confusing statement I know. But there is plenty of evidence too. Uchiha were said to be the strognest Clan ever, etc.

Not stronger than the Senju.


no thats not what im saying. Im saying that its possible that 1st didnt easily win. There may have been more to it, like the sasuke Itachi fight. Maybe 1st gained control over Kyubi or something strange happend. WHo knows. Well find out soon.

I know what you mean. However, in the one panel we saw, we've seen Kyuubi attacking Shodai. And Shodai was trying to stop him by his wood. Madara can control the Kyuubi, I don't think it will turn against him.



Well if you dont accept manga then none of the points are valid. People always choose to say i dont care what the manga says when talking about Itahci, or the sharingan.

I actually care about what manga says. But, I'd rather believe actions more than words. I'll give you an example, in the Chuunin exam, it has been said that no one can defeat Neji, but then, Naruto defeated him. So not everything has been said in the manga is supposed to be true. Especially when a lot of things happen that proves what has been said to be wrong.

[MinatoNamikaze]

He died though.

Yes but not becasue he was overpowered.


Not stronger than the Senju.

Well, thats impossible to know. We havent seen any of the senju clan at this time. But they are at least equal adn both share top spot for sure


I know what you mean. However, in the one panel we saw, we've seen Kyuubi attacking Shodai. And Shodai was trying to stop him by his wood. Madara can control the Kyuubi, I don't think it will turn against him.

ya im not soying thats what happened I was just goving a example. We shouldnt assume the 1st wiped the floor with madara. Thats all im getting at.


I actually care about what manga says. But, I'd rather believe actions more than words. I'll give you an example, in the Chuunin exam, it has been said that no one can defeat Neji, but then, Naruto defeated him. So not everything has been said in the manga is supposed to be true. Especially when a lot of things happen that proves what has been said to be wrong


Thank god. Thats what ive been trying to get you to say. Not everything said in the manga is true. Things have exceptions, are proven wrong,etc. This ties into many other debates. But I still think the sharingan user against someone of equal power level will win every time 1v1

[Hashirama]

Well, thats impossible to know. We havent seen any of the senju clan at this time. But they are at least equal adn both share top spot for sure

They're kinda equals. But the strongest Senju > the strongest Uchiha.

[CaptFlowers]

Uchiha Itachi is a hero. You know why? because he had taken direct order from konoha to eliminate his own clan members proving his loyalty to his hidden village. He knows what he did was wrong so he kept sasuke alive in order for sasuke to kill itachi and gain the mangekyo along with susanoo and amaterasu and tsuynomi or how ever its spelled to exact revenge on konoha

[Hashirama]

Uchiha Itachi is a hero. You know why? because he had taken direct order from konoha to eliminate his own clan members proving his loyalty to his hidden village. He knows what he did was wrong so he kept sasuke alive in order for sasuke to kill itachi and gain the mangekyo along with susanoo and amaterasu and tsuynomi or how ever its spelled to exact revenge on konoha

Everyone knows that .

[D.I.Y Death]

But I still think the sharingan user against someone of equal power level will win every time 1v1

Manga proves you wrong on that one with actions none the less.
As for not everything being true its pretty easy ti tell when somethings a lie. As soon as someone is described as something and it sounds obscene then its not true, when Mandara spews a long speech about the past you can be assured its mixed with half truths and out right lies. When an observation is made its probably going to be true or fairly accurate if the observation is made by someone who is witnessing the battle at that exact moment. If you take everything into context its really easy to see whats exaggerated, tainted with perception and whats the truth.

[DeadPein]

I am just wondering how he was able to kill his whole family without any emotion like it was just another enemy.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Manga proves you wrong on that one with actions none the less.
As for not everything being true its pretty easy ti tell when somethings a lie. As soon as someone is described as something and it sounds obscene then its not true, when Mandara spews a long speech about the past you can be assured its mixed with half truths and out right lies. When an observation is made its probably going to be true or fairly accurate if the observation is made by someone who is witnessing the battle at that exact moment. If you take everything into context its really easy to see whats exaggerated, tainted with perception and whats the truth.

But then we have proven that sarutobi didnt know al the techs in Konoha so are we to believe it not to be true

[D.I.Y Death]

But then we have proven that sarutobi didnt know al the techs in Konoha so are we to believe it not to be true

I'm not going to reply in detail.
A sharingan user can be beaten by someone without a sharingan. Its happened in the manga a few times.

[Luna Love]

I'm not going to reply in detail.
A sharingan user can be beaten by someone without a sharingan. Its happened in the manga a few times.


I believe so like a person with powers can be beate by a person with out powers

[MinatoNamikaze]

I'm not going to reply in detail.
A sharingan user can be beaten by someone without a sharingan. Its happened in the manga a few times.

Yes but I think as i have said before that if 2 people of equal power fight, the one with a sharingna will win. Also, it has happened once in manga in the Madara battle but again we dont know the content of that fight so we dont know all the facts.

[Raikage's left hand]

Yes but I think as i have said before that if 2 people of equal power fight, the one with a sharingna will win. Also, it has happened once in manga in the Madara battle but again we dont know the content of that fight so we dont know all the facts.

Gaara vs Sasuke.
Haku vs Sasuke.
Obito vs random rock nin.
Kakashi vs Kakazu.

It's happened various times in the manga :S

If you seriously think that Hashirama was somehow weaker than Madara you must have something lose upstairs.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Gaara vs Sasuke.

sasuke didnt die


Haku vs Sasuke.

sasuke only got hit cause he sacrificed himslef to save naruto


Obito vs random rock nin.

same reason as previous point


Kakashi vs Kakazu.

Not dead.


It's happened various times in the manga :S

If you seriously think that Hashirama was somehow weaker than Madara you must have something lose upstairs.

I never said that. what I said is they may be equal. We dont know the contents of the battle.

Thats all im goign to say, I m done with the thread:D

[Naruto Sama]

he's a hero for me...what he did for konoha and sasuke, his brother, is really amazing...especially if your brother think urs evil, must really hurt.


R.I.P Itachi!

[MinatoNamikaze]

he's a hero for me...what he did for konoha and sasuke, his brother, is really amazing...especially if your brother think urs evil, must really hurt.


R.I.P Itachi!

Agreed:D

[Shikamaru-Nara]

As a Shinobi, he is a hero.

As a human, he is not. Simple as that.

agreed

[MinatoNamikaze]

Just to add something to people who think sasuke is a villan, can you explain to me why he is any worse than any other shinobi? Every shinobi has to kill, but Itachi had to kill for the sake of everyone else. I think its the most justified kill in the manga IMO

[linksmolecules]

Itachi will never be considered a hero, one of the best shinobi-most certanialy,but he never was blood thirsty or evil, just carried an enormous burden that most shinobi could not tolerate.

[HashiramaSenju]

Itachi... If i can describe him in a word hes a SACRIFICE. I admire this guy for taking all the blame for himself and keeping a balance of things in the ninja world. I beleive he stalled akatsuki movements at the same time being a dog to them keep the group from contacting konoha because his brother is living there. He made sasuke have this motivation to become stronger for him to protect himself to the point itachi denied hes the caring brother naturally he is. he acts so coldly because its a nature to a ninja to be emotionless.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Itachi... If i can describe him in a word hes a SACRIFICE. I admire this guy for taking all the blame for himself and keeping a balance of things in the ninja world. I beleive he stalled akatsuki movements at the same time being a dog to them keep the group from contacting konoha because his brother is living there. He made sasuke have this motivation to become stronger for him to protect himself to the point itachi denied hes the caring brother naturally he is. he acts so coldly because its a nature to a ninja to be emotionless.

Nice post. + rep for that

[.::Uzumaki Naruto::.]

In my opinion, after all i've read from him, i think he is a hero... But he has his dark side too...

[MinatoNamikaze]

Agreed, except I dont think he has a dark side :)

[Raikage's left hand]

Just to add something to people who think sasuke is a villan, can you explain to me why he is any worse than any other shinobi? Every shinobi has to kill, but Itachi had to kill for the sake of everyone else. I think its the most justified kill in the manga IMO

Well let's see. He's just given over 8ty cent to akatsuki. Helping an organization who wants to kill everyone by giving them one more step to their goal doesn't seem like a very "nice" thing to do.

[$$mr brain$$]

In my opinion, after all i've read from him, i think he is a hero... But he has his dark side too...


agreed :susp:

[MinatoNamikaze]

Well let's see. He's just given over 8ty cent to akatsuki. Helping an organization who wants to kill everyone by giving them one more step to their goal doesn't seem like a very "nice" thing to do.

8ty? dont know what you mean.

Itahci gave akatsuki 1 tailed beast, prevented them from getting the 9 tails, sacrificed his life, didnt lik ehelping akatsuki, etc

[Raikage's left hand]

8ty? dont know what you mean.

Itahci gave akatsuki 1 tailed beast, prevented them from getting the 9 tails, sacrificed his life, didnt lik ehelping akatsuki, etc

How do you know Itachi didn't like helping akatsuki? He gave them a tailed beast.

He never prevented them from getting the 9 tails. Itachi never sacrificed jack if he didn't want to do what he did someone else could've.

And 8ty cent is the 8 tails.

[MinatoNamikaze]

How do you know Itachi didn't like helping akatsuki? He gave them a tailed beast.

Is someone as smart as yourself seriously asking me this question? He hated akatsuki and everytihng they stood for. He never really went after naruto. If he had wanted him, he would have appeared infront of Kakashi and naruto alot not at 30% but at full, wouldnt have given naruto 2 years to train and become stronger, and would have taken him when he gave naruto a power. Itachi chose naruto as his target so he could delay his capture and naruto would have enough time to become strong enough in order for Itachi to use naruto for what ever Itachi has in mind


He never prevented them from getting the 9 tails. Itachi never sacrificed jack if he didn't want to do what he did someone else could've.

He did prevent it. Naruto was never caught, and Itachi never once TRIED to take him.


And 8ty cent is the 8 tails.


kk i guess im not up to date with the short forms

[Raikage's left hand]

Is someone as smart as yourself seriously asking me this question? He hated akatsuki and everytihng they stood for. He never really went after naruto. If he had wanted him, he would have appeared infront of Kakashi and naruto alot not at 30% but at full, wouldnt have given naruto 2 years to train and become stronger, and would have taken him when he gave naruto a power. Itachi chose naruto as his target so he could delay his capture and naruto would have enough time to become strong enough in order for Itachi to use naruto for what ever Itachi has in mind

Proof? Link to manga page or are you just assuming everything here. Pein was the one assigning Akatsuki to their beasts hell Itachi wasn't even assigned with capturing the 9 tails. Akatsuki spent their time over the timeskip preparing Itachi had nothing to do with them waiting. There is nothing to say Itachi hated akatsuki and everything they stood for when he was best buddies with Kisame a man who was a vicious murderer and slaughtered people for the lulz.


He did prevent it. Naruto was never caught, and Itachi never once TRIED to take him.
1. They didn't need the 9 tails first if they didn't get them in a certain order the statue would collapse.
2. Pein was the one assigned with capturing the 9 tails.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Proof? Link to manga page or are you just assuming everything here. Pein was the one assigning Akatsuki to their beasts hell Itachi wasn't even assigned with capturing the 9 tails. Akatsuki spent their time over the timeskip preparing Itachi had nothing to do with them waiting. There is nothing to say Itachi hated akatsuki and everything they stood for when he was best buddies with Kisame a man who was a vicious murderer and slaughtered people for the lulz.

I cant believe I need links to prove to you Itachi was a good guy. Good guys dont help/like terrorist organizations destroy the village they sacrifieced their lives for. Please think about it before you post again


1. They didn't need the 9 tails first if they didn't get them in a certain order the statue would collapse.

Bu then why did they even try to capture him then. Itachi was making it look like he wanted naruto.


2. Pein was the one assigned with capturing the 9 tails

You may want to get your facts straight before posting a sentence like that

[Raikage's left hand]

I cant believe I need links to prove to you Itachi was a good guy. Good guys dont help/like terrorist organizations destroy the village they sacrifieced their lives for. Please think about it before you post again
Yet he never left. He became buddies with a murderer. He assisted them in their goals. I don't see how that goes towards him being against everything they stood for.



Bu then why did they even try to capture him then. Itachi was making it look like he wanted naruto.
They didn't need Naruto at the time.



You may want to get your facts straight before posting a sentence like that

Perhaps you should get yours straight. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/17/)

[MinatoNamikaze]

Yet he never left. He became buddies with a murderer. He assisted them in their goals. I don't see how that goes towards him being against everything they stood for.

I guess you cant conceive that Itahci was a ctually a good guy heres a link http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/06/

Theres your proof now can you wrap your head around Itachi being a good guy.


They didn't need Naruto at the time.

Then why did they even attempt to go after him?



Perhaps you should get yours straight. (http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/363/17/)


lol if you read the page carfully, you would see that TObi was only then giving him the order to go after the 9 tails, before that Itachi and Kisame were assigned that task

[Raikage's left hand]

I guess you cant conceive that Itahci was a ctually a good guy heres a link http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/401/06/

Theres your proof now can you wrap your head around Itachi being a good guy.

I know that he's a good guy. Yet you said he somehow delayed them, that he hated them all yet he was still best buddies with Kisame. And actually helped to capture the beasts.


Then why did they even attempt to go after him?

To find him and so they wouldn't need to find him after they had the other 8 tailed beasts.




lol if you read the page carfully, you would see that TObi was only then giving him the order to go after the 9 tails, before that Itachi and Kisame were assigned that task

So he left it to Pein instead of Itachi and Kisame who were still willing and able to capture Naruto for no reason at all?

[MinatoNamikaze]

I know that he's a good guy. Yet you said he somehow delayed them, that he hated them all yet he was still best buddies with Kisame. And actually helped to capture the beasts.

Well we havent seen how Kisame nd Itachi felt towards each other after we found out the truth. They werent best buds. Kisame didnt care itachi died, and Itahci hated anyone who was againast Konoha.


To find him and so they wouldn't need to find him after they had the other 8 tailed beasts.

That doesnt make any sense. They already know hes in Konoha. Itachi did it to make him look like he actually cared about Akatuski. Itahci is the best actor in the naruto universe.


So he left it to Pein instead of Itachi and Kisame who were still willing and able to capture Naruto for no reason at all?

Able, Itachi was about to be killed and Madara knew that. SO unless you think itachis corpse is willing and able to take down the 9 tails, Itachi wasnt able to

[Raikage's left hand]

Well we havent seen how Kisame nd Itachi felt towards each other after we found out the truth. They werent best buds. Kisame didnt care itachi died, and Itahci hated anyone who was againast Konoha.

Kisame probably would've felt betrayed had he found out the truth about Itachi. Why would you believe they weren't buddies? They seemed to get along very well they never argued at all and didn't seem to ahve any disdain like other akatsuki parings. Noone in Akatsuki had anything against Konoha anyway they just wanted the jinchuuriki nothing against any of the villages.

But i don't think you get what i'm saying. It doesn't make any sense for a good guy to help an organization like that by doing all he could to help them reach their goals.


That doesnt make any sense. They already know hes in Konoha. Itachi did it to make him look like he actually cared about Akatuski. Itahci is the best actor in the naruto universe.
What would make even less sense is if they captured him them. The sealing statue would collapse, the story would've ended there etc.



Able, Itachi was about to be killed and Madara knew that. SO unless you think itachis corpse is willing and able to take down the 9 tails, Itachi wasnt able to

You mean besides the fact that they had also just previously captured their jinchuuriki there was nothing really stopping them from being sent aswell.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Kisame probably would've felt betrayed had he found out the truth about Itachi. Why would you believe they weren't buddies? They seemed to get along very well they never argued at all and didn't seem to ahve any disdain like other akatsuki parings. Noone in Akatsuki had anything against Konoha anyway they just wanted the jinchuuriki nothing against any of the villages.

But i don't think you get what i'm saying. It doesn't make any sense for a good guy to help an organization like that by doing all he could to help them reach their goals.

You obviously didnt read the link in my posts. Itachi joined akatsuki to keep an eye on them and not let them hurt konoha. He didnt ever go all out to reach their goals.


What would make even less sense is if they captured him them. The sealing statue would collapse, the story would've ended there etc.

No they could capture him but not extract the 9 tails. WHy would TObi send them out to capture it if they didnt need it.



You mean besides the fact that they had also just previously captured their jinchuuriki there was nothing really stopping them from being sent aswell.

hmm except the minor fact that Itachi had a fight with sasuke. Your right there was nothing.:p

[Bushido Brown]

hero he had to do what he had to do to save lifes

[Hyuuga_Angel]

He;s not exactly a hero, but not really a villain either.

[Raikage's left hand]

You obviously didnt read the link in my posts. Itachi joined akatsuki to keep an eye on them and not let them hurt konoha. He didnt ever go all out to reach their goals.
Then where did you get the idea Itachi hated Akatsuki and everything about them. He was the one who told Kisame to kill Kakashi. He was the one who put the woman in genjutsu to distract Jiraiya. He even helped Kisame claim his beast.



No they could capture him but not extract the 9 tails. WHy would TObi send them out to capture it if they didnt need it.

They would've caught Naruto there and then if Jiraiya didn't show up. They knew they could get Naruto later and that they would most likely both die against Jiraiya so they didn't risk it.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Then where did you get the idea Itachi hated Akatsuki and everything about them. He was the one who told Kisame to kill Kakashi. He was the one who put the woman in genjutsu to distract Jiraiya. He even helped Kisame claim his beast.

first off, he only joined them to keep an eye on them "Always thinking about Konoha" were Tobis exact words. Here is a simlar situation. you kill someone to save teh states (which im assuming is where your from), you then leave to join alqueda (spelling?) (to keep an eye on them,) who is trying to hurt america, the place you gave your life to protect. Just becasue you are with them doesnt mean you like them, in reality you actually hate them. Its the exact same siutation.


They would've caught Naruto there and then if Jiraiya didn't show up. They knew they could get Naruto later and that they would most likely both die against Jiraiya so they didn't risk it.

The timeing on this brings me to my theory of the two wroking together. but anyway, remeber when Itahci gave naruto his power? well if he wanted naruto he would have taken him there. He already had him in a genjutsu so the fight was over then.

[Raikage's left hand]

first off, he only joined them to keep an eye on them "Always thinking about Konoha" were Tobis exact words. Here is a simlar situation. you kill someone to save teh states (which im assuming is where your from), you then leave to join alqueda (spelling?) (to keep an eye on them,) who is trying to hurt america, the place you gave your life to protect. Just becasue you are with them doesnt mean you like them, in reality you actually hate them. Its the exact same siutation.
No it's not the same situation. Itachi helped them. If he hated them he would find ways around getting them closer to their goals. He could've killed a jinchuriki "by accident" he could have done a few things instead of doing everything he could to help them complete their objectives. So your just spewing crap about Itachi not liking Akatsuki.




The timeing on this brings me to my theory of the two wroking together. but anyway, remeber when Itahci gave naruto his power? well if he wanted naruto he would have taken him there. He already had him in a genjutsu so the fight was over then.

Jiraiya and Itachi were not working together. Jiraiya was prepared to kill Itachi with the toad stomach. Itachi wouldn't have surprised Jiraiya when he got out if they were working together.

[MinatoNamikaze]

No it's not the same situation. Itachi helped them. If he hated them he would find ways around getting them closer to their goals. He could've killed a jinchuriki "by accident" he could have done a few things instead of doing everything he could to help them complete their objectives. So your just spewing crap about Itachi not liking Akatsuki.

OMG obviously I cant get anything thorugh your head. ITACHI IS A GOOD GUY. GOOD GUYS DONT LIKE ORGANIZATIONS THAT DESTROY THEIR COUNTRIES!! I cant make it any clearer than that. This proves that your an Anti-Itachi fan.



Jiraiya and Itachi were not working together. Jiraiya was prepared to kill Itachi with the toad stomach. Itachi wouldn't have surprised Jiraiya when he got out if they were working together.

Its a theory and very possible. How else did Jiriya now exactly what was going on with Akatsuki all the time and that itachi was coming back to the village. DOnt answer cause im not argueing that here.

[KaiUchiha]

Both.He was the assassin of his clan,yes,but he gave his life for Konoha.

[cursedneji18]

please dont lock this thread cause it was bumped :).

not really though defending people who would of harmed many innocent lives would make him more of a villain then assassinating them.

[WhiteFang]

I think Itachi was just a horribly misguided, stupid man. From what it seems till now, his "gift" notwithstanding, nearly everything he's done has fizzled out. The consequences of his actions have been far-ranging and really not positive - in fact, some of the losses have outweighed the gains by a fair margin, all in all edging Itachi as a villainish individual in my book, though the best term for him, imo, would be a badly misled hero wannabe.

[cursedneji18]

so its misguiding to take out envious people that will do anything even harm the innocent to get what they want? its incredibly stupid to defend people even if their family when their evil. clearly itachi knew bonds >>> blood.

[HeavenOnEarth]

Itachi was clearly a hero.. I know he's done idiotic stuff like keep sasuke alive, but I think he kept him alive for one reason, and that reason was because he had faith in naruto that he could actually change him... Remember itachi talked to naruto b4 he fought sasuke, and was happy to hear naruto say he wanted to save sasuke.. SO Itachi gave him his own power and decided he would let sasuke live... I think if naruto had given up on sasuke then itachi would have killed him.. But believing in naruto that he could mayb change his little brother, he put all his faith on him

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

so its misguiding to take out envious people that will do anything even harm the innocent to get what they want?
You mean the slaughter of the Uchiha clan including all those people who are not fighters?
You mean the complete annihilation of an entire group when simply killing the fighters alone would have ended their plans completely?

There is justified and then there is misguided

its incredibly stupid to defend people even if their family when their evil.
Like Sasuke?
Like how all of this was for the evil little man we now see?

All his sermonising about Sasuke being redeemed
and yet the innocent civilians of the Uchiha clan were so evil that death was the only option he could find for them?

Itachi tried to do things and failed
he ran away from his problems and they got worse
Now he foists his own mistakes on others and it is up to them to make them right again
He isn't a villain in the sense of many Akatsuki members
But he is not even close to being a hero

[Mattus]

Itachi is to villain as my ass is to being John Wayne. It's not and if you have even the slightest bit of brain you could tell that it's not.

Itachi is a rip off of Snape as far as I'm concerned. Was Snape a villain? He was damn sure classified as one but does that make him one? I guess technically only we can dictate that but if a good man with good intentions does a good deed through the most unfortunately necessary and evil of means, does that make the person evil as well? No. Itachi is the greatest hero the manga has seen and will ever see.

I'll rank the heroes in order of what I believe makes them a hero.

Itachi - Sacrificed his entire life and lived on the run in order to protect his home and brother. He was hated by his brother and eventually "killed" by the person whom he sacrificed everything to protect only to have everything he stood for threatened by, again, the person whom he sacrificed everything for.

Jiriaya - Fought against two of the greatest threats the ninja world has ever seen even though he was outmatched and, in the case of Pein, greatly outnumbered. Sacrificed his life in order to find a way to defeat the monster that was headed for his home.

Naruto - Went against all odds in order to save his home, rescue his best friend, fight incredibly dangerous enemies, etc...

Tsunade - Was fully prepared to sacrifice her life in order to save the village. She used a technique that drained her of her life and her chakra in order to keep all of the villagers she could alive.

White Fang(not our admin) - Went against the ninja code and protected his brethren only to be treated like scum for doing so.

Those five, as far as I'm concerned, are the only great heroes this story has had, unless I'm forgetting someone. And no, I'm not forgetting Minato.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Itachi is a rip off of Snape as far as I'm concerned.
In what way?
Snape and Itachi share little in common
Itachi was a weak willed individual who chose a rather weak and cowardly path that has resulted in major catastophe, Snape was a tortured soul seeking redemption for the death of one he loved through protecting those who came after him
Itachi failed, snape succeeded

Snape is far an above a superior character and hero to one such as Itachi

I guess technically only we can dictate that but if a good man with good intentions does a good deed through the most unfortunately necessary and evil of means, does that make the person evil as well?
Good intentions do not make things ok
Did his later actions make Snapes crimes any less evil? was he always a hero?
I would say no
I would however, say that unlike Itachi, Snape did enough to redeem himself of his prior crimes and sins
Itachi caused only misery and even now others are paying for his mistakes

Itachi - Sacrificed his entire life and lived on the run in order to protect his home and brother.
He butchered innocent people for no reason
he joined a criminal organisation for no reason

All could have been avoided simply by holding the Uchihas responsible for their crimes
instead he ran away and now the Uchihas are even more despised

only to have everything he stood for threatened by, again, the person whom he sacrificed everything for.
Because of Itachis own actions
Itachi is at largely to blame for all of this

Jiriaya - Fought against two of the greatest threats the ninja world has ever seen even though he was outmatched and, in the case of Pein, greatly outnumbered. Sacrificed his life in order to find a way to defeat the monster that was headed for his home.
Does dying against impossible odds make you a hero?
I would say that it was Jiraiyas commitment to protecting the world that made him a hero
His unswerving loyalty and dedication

Naruto - Went against all odds in order to save his home, rescue his best friend, fight incredibly dangerous enemies, etc...
I don't think Naruto has yet become a great hero
A great fighter to be sure
But he needs to really find something to cement his place

Tsunade - Was fully prepared to sacrifice her life in order to save the village. She used a technique that drained her of her life and her chakra in order to keep all of the villagers she could alive.
a good candidate
One who put the needs of the many to the fore and showed a true spirit of a hero

White Fang(not our admin) - Went against the ninja code and protected his brethren only to be treated like scum for doing so.

None of this makes him a hero
dedication to his friends was admirable
however his end was one of someone who could have been a hero and was broken by it

Others have faced discrimination and come out on top
Gaara, Killerbee, Hinata as some examples
WF was one who didn't make it

I'm not forgetting Minato.
Was fully prepared to sacrifice her[his] life in order to save the village. She[he] used a technique that drained her[him]of her[his] life[soul] and her[B] chakra[soul] in order to keep all of the villagers she[he] could alive.
--That is the required changes (Gender mostly) to fit Minato in with Tsunades reasons
Went against all odds in order to save his home, rescue his best friend[son], fight incredibly dangerous enemies, etc...
--same for Naruto
Fought against two of the greatest threats the ninja world has ever seen even though he was outmatched and, in the case of Pein[Kyuubi], greatly outnumbered[Overpowered]. Sacrificed his life in order to find a way to defeat the monster that was headed for his home.
--same for Jiraiya

Minato fits most of the requirements you set forward for other characters
Why are his feats any less?
(Note you can do similar for the likes of Sarutobi)

[Mattus]

Itachi was a weak willed individual who chose a rather weak and cowardly path that has resulted in major catastophe, Snape was a tortured soul seeking redemption for the death of one he loved through protecting those who came after him
Itachi failed, snape succeeded

:lmao: I'm amazed really, I'm gonna go call Al Gore and make him aware that in New Zealand, they have successful attached a bulls ass right where a human's mouth should be.

Itachi was weak willed? Bullshit.
He chose a weak and cowardly path? I'm sorry you're too full of shit to even say you're full of shit.
:facepalm:

Cowardly? That is literally the exact opposite of cowardly in absolutely every way shape and form.


Snape is far an above a superior character and hero to one such as Itachi


I do agree to an extent.


Good intentions do not make things ok
Did his later actions make Snapes crimes any less evil? was he always a hero?
I would say no
I would however, say that unlike Itachi, Snape did enough to redeem himself of his prior crimes and sins

You're saying that because you hate Itachi. Snape did jack shit to redeem himself. He killed Dumbeldore, which like you said, makes him evil because good intentions mean nothing. He attacked the person he swore to protect. He aided Voldemort in his quest for domination by not doing something with the elder wand. Etc...


Itachi caused only misery and even now others are paying for his mistakes


Itachi caused misery at the price of saving the village. Yes, it's true that the two Uchiha that survived are the biggest threats. But none the less that was the point and the fact that it was all for nothing makes him even more tragic.


He butchered innocent people for no reason
he joined a criminal organisation for no reason

1. We have reason to believe he killed only two people, one of which we can safely assume was a large part of the reason why Itachi was in the situation he was in.
2. The reason was to save the village.
3. He joined a criminal organization to continue the act and alibi. He joined to make him look bad in order to, again, save the village because the villagers and other ninja cannot know about the plan.


All could have been avoided simply by holding the Uchihas responsible for their crimes
instead he ran away and now the Uchihas are even more despised

...that was holding them responsible....
He ran away? Did you actually read the story? He HAD to run away because HE HAD to hold the Uchihas responsible for their crimes.


Because of Itachis own actions
Itachi is at largely to blame for all of this

You're a piss poor soldier, you know that?
In war who is held accountable for the actions of a soldier? The soldier or the commanding officer?
Itachi knew what was going to happen and chose to do it himself in order to save his little brother. That alone is heroic enough to be one of the greatest Naruto characters.


Does dying against impossible odds make you a hero?
I would say that it was Jiraiyas commitment to protecting the world that made him a hero

I was going for events, not attitude.


I don't think Naruto has yet become a great hero
A great fighter to be sure
But he needs to really find something to cement his place

He has without a doubt become a good hero....he has already done more than 99% of the other characters.


None of this makes him a hero
dedication to his friends was admirable
however his end was one of someone who could have been a hero and was broken by it

I ran out of people, okay? xD


Others have faced discrimination and come out on top
Gaara, Killerbee, Hinata as some examples
WF was one who didn't make it

:lmao: Hinata. Your bias never fails to show through.


Was fully prepared to sacrifice her[his] life in order to save the village.

Doesn't make you a hero. I'd die for my closest friends. Gimme a fuckin' medal, whydon'tcha.



She[he] used a technique that drained her[him]of her[his] life[soul] and her[B] chakra[soul] in order to keep all of the villagers she[he] could alive.

Tsuande did what was necessary. Minato did not. Minato, by using the technique that he did, died when he shouldn't have which put the village in greater danger.


Went against all odds in order to save his home, rescue his best friend[son], fight incredibly dangerous enemies, etc...

Rescuing Naruto made him a hero? Well shit then by that logic Sakura is as big of a hero because she protected Tazuna.


Fought against two of the greatest threats the ninja world has ever seen even though he was outmatched and, in the case of Pein[Kyuubi], greatly outnumbered[Overpowered]. Sacrificed his life in order to find a way to defeat the monster that was headed for his home.

Wrong.

1. Tobi is not the greatest threat the ninja world has ever seen. He's a con man, especially back then.
2. Minato was not overpowered because he had the cheap FTG to see things through.
3. Minato was not greatly outnumbered.
4. He sacrificed his life when he didn't need to and he didn't find a way to defeat the monster that was headed for his home. He found a way to put the monster into his son which did two things.
A. It brought the monster back home.
B. It made the first 12 years of his sons life miserable.


Minato fits most of the requirements you set forward for other characters
Why are his feats any less?
(Note you can do similar for the likes of Sarutobi)

Because Minato didn't have to die.

[WhiteFang]

@Itachi is a hero side:

I think what you guys simply aren't seeing objectively is that Itachi did make some incredibly stupid mistakes which have had dire consequences... He can essentially be blamed for creating one of the biggest insane "villains" in the manga who goes by the name of Sasuke. First he failed to kill him and then when Sasuke had some semblance of stabilization in his life, he came and ruined it. Argue all you want that he wanted Sasuke to become powerful but in the end it is an absolutely bogus reasoning because of the results we have sitting in front of us. Whatever his plans and intentions may have been ended up backfiring miserably. I consider it horrible anyway. What sort of an asshole elder brother drives his younger sibling to an uncertain path of revenge? Oh, I already mentioned it. A stupid asshole of a brother.

But yes, from an objective view-point, Itachi's a wannabe hero, not an actual hero. And yes, I don't really throw too much weight behind "good intentions". And let's not forget how all of his plans wouldn't even exist had it not been for Minato whom everyone seems to be hell bent on criticizing. His great Sasuke plan, or any other idiotic thinking linked with it would've certainly gone to hell had Minato not intervened at that crucial juncture when Naruto went berserk.

Lastly, he is very very tainted. His singular obsession in life seemed to be pretty much Sasuke and whatever skewed plans he made for him, for which tilted his own "ideals". He joined Akatsuki and did shady things. A spy? Good intentions? I will call this BS till someone throws out actual proof that he gave some intel and did something worthwhile for the entire world, heck even Konoha... except plotting to protect his precious Sasuke.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Itachi was weak willed? Bullshit.
He chose a weak and cowardly path?
Then why didn't he simply tell people the truth?
"The uchihas were planning a coup and were stopped under orders from the Village Elders"
"Oh and you see that random in the mask, he is actually Madara and is planning on taking over the world so you had better prepare to stop him"

Why didn't he simply say this?

Snape did jack shit to redeem himself.
Except be one of the most important characters in the plot to bring down the bad guy

He killed Dumbeldore, which like you said, makes him evil because good intentions mean nothing.
Actually his killing of Dumbledore was not Evil
Remember it was at Dumbledores request (And against the protests of Snape himself) that he was commited to that path

And Snape was one of the instrumental characters in bringing down the Villain

Itachi caused misery at the price of saving the village.
From who?
Ultimately Itachi didn't save anything
It was still attacked and even now it is fighting to stay alive

Yes, it's true that the two Uchiha that survived are the biggest threats. But none the less that was the point and the fact that it was all for nothing makes him even more tragic.
It doesn't make it tragic because it could have been avoided
Sasuke didn't have to be evil and despised and he even now could be aiding in them bringing down Madara

1. We have reason to believe he killed only two people, one of which we can safely assume was a large part of the reason why Itachi was in the situation he was in.
3 People
Mum, Dad, Shishui

And even then he killed those who didn't need to be

2. The reason was to save the village.
Which failed
And the bad guy showed utter contempt for all of Itachs efforts in this

3. He joined a criminal organization to continue the act and alibi. He joined to make him look bad in order to, again, save the village because the villagers and other ninja cannot know about the plan.
What Plan?

He ran away? Did you actually read the story? He HAD to run away because HE HAD to hold the Uchihas responsible for their crimes.

No he did that so that no-one would know what the Uchihas were planning
He wanted people to believe that he was a monster and the uchihas the innocent victims
Again however he failed in this regard

In war who is held accountable for the actions of a soldier? The soldier or the commanding officer?
Both
Do you think Commanders who can't control their soldiers get off scot free?
Hell no

Itachi knew what was going to happen and chose to do it himself in order to save his little brother. That alone is heroic enough to be one of the greatest Naruto characters.

Except instead of saving Sasuke and having him be the hero who avenged his clan and downed the traitor
now Sasuke is the Traitor hunted and despised by all


I was going for events, not attitude.
Events wise Jiraiya is not unique
Many have faced dangerous opponents and prevailed

:lmao: Hinata. Your bias never fails to show through.
How?
I guess you missed the point
The people listed were ones who faced discrimination/prejudice/oppression etc and perservered (you can't really argue none of those listed didn't, Hinata was simply the obvious Non-Jinchuuriki I could remember in the first few seconds)
White Fang did not perservere and indeed was unable to be a hero

Doesn't make you a hero. I'd die for my closest friends.
These were your reasons these people were heroes

Tsuande did what was necessary. Minato did not.
Then Enlighten us as to how else he could have stopped it?

Rescuing Naruto made him a hero? Well shit then by that logic Sakura is as big of a hero because she protected Tazuna.

Again these are simply your standards
Unless saving a best friend is not comparable to saving a baby?

1. Tobi is not the greatest threat the ninja world has ever seen. He's a con man, especially back then.
Not the greatest threat?
so that whole mutinational war?Moons Eye Plan? World Domination? aren't threats?

2. Minato was not overpowered because he had the cheap FTG to see things through.
Wrong Character
Kyuubi=Overpowered

3. Minato was not greatly outnumbered.
Hence why I said overpowered

A. It brought the monster back home.
secured away and harmless at the time

B. It made the first 12 years of his sons life miserable.
Which was completely outside Minato's control
And Naruto is now one of the great characters of the series loved and firends with many
Yes you could say that he had a hard childhood, but he was stronger for it and he seems to be one who wasn't overly troubled by his rough start

Because Minato didn't have to die.
Neither did Itachi

[Raikage's left hand]

You guys are being pretty hard on a guy who thought up his master plan when he was only like 10-12 years old. How many world changing plans did you think up at that age hmmmmm?

[Boot]

i dont know about you but i had come up with about 6 life changing plans between the age of 10-12

itachi needs to man up.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

You guys are being pretty hard on a guy who thought up his master plan when he was only like 10-12 years old. How many world changing plans did you think up at that age hmmmmm?
We have the same success rate tho
0%

[Mattus]

Then why didn't he simply tell people the truth?
"The uchihas were planning a coup and were stopped under orders from the Village Elders"
"Oh and you see that random in the mask, he is actually Madara and is planning on taking over the world so you had better prepare to stop him"
Why didn't he simply say this?

He was protecting the village. Are you blind?
If he tells people the truth about what happened and how the only Uchiha that was a threat was the one who secretly survived would disgrace both Itachi and Sasuke but the entire Konoha government as well because it was THEIR order and THEIR secret plan so the blame would fall on them as well.


Except be one of the most important characters in the plot to bring down the bad guy


-is trying to remember that-
[SPOILER]Snape kills Dumbledore...because of his actions he basically kills dozens of others including one main character, two supporting characters, and a few side characters...But now that I think about it Voldemort would've been like twice as easy to kill had Snape not killed Dumbledore because Snape would not have had the Elder Wand therefore he wouldn't have needed to die therefore he, in theory, could have killed him himself.


Actually his killing of Dumbledore was not Evil
Remember it was at Dumbledores request (And against the protests of Snape himself) that he was commited to that path

So it wasn't evil because he was asked to do an evil deed for the sake of good? Where have I heard that before? Right. That's my god damn point.


And Snape was one of the instrumental characters in bringing down the Villain


Honestly, I think one of us is forgetting something.


From who?
Ultimately Itachi didn't save anything
It was still attacked and even now it is fighting to stay alive

The Uchiha's.
Ultimately, you don't know shit. You don't know what would have happened had the Uchiha's survived therefore you can't say he didn't save anybody because you don't know.


It doesn't make it tragic because it could have been avoided
Sasuke didn't have to be evil and despised and he even now could be aiding in them bringing down Madara

Doubtful seeing as the Uchiha were planning an attack.


3 People
Mum, Dad, Shishui

And even then he killed those who didn't need to be

Dad = Head of the Police Unit, no? If the Uchiha were planning something, he'd be near the top.
Shishui = Probably near the top too and either way, there have been doubts over whether or not Itachi killed him. It's just been said by Itachi that he killed his best friend. Last I checked he said he killed everyone. It was said you can only get MS by killing your best friend. Last I checked 2/3 of them didn't do that to acquire MS.


Which failed
And the bad guy showed utter contempt for all of Itachs efforts in this

Nevertheless it was still attempted which should qualify him as a hero but no because someone hates everything Uchiha no credit will be given.


What Plan?

About the "conspiracy" regarding the deaths of the Uchiha.


No he did that so that no-one would know what the Uchihas were planning
He wanted people to believe that he was a monster and the uchihas the innocent victims
Again however he failed in this regard

No. No he didn't fail. Last I checked literally everyone alive but a few people still believe that. He didn't fail in that regard, not even a little bit.


Both
Do you think Commanders who can't control their soldiers get off scot free?
Hell no

The soldiers job is to follow orders. Nothing else. If something the soldier does while following orders is questionable, who is held responsible? From what I've heard about the Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marines, seeing as I have relatives and close friends in all of them, the commanding officer is the one held responsible, not the soldier. Unless the soldier does something drastic/against orders.


Except instead of saving Sasuke and having him be the hero who avenged his clan and downed the traitor
now Sasuke is the Traitor hunted and despised by all

That was Sasuke's fault, not Itachi's. That was Sasuke's personality that led him to the path he is at now. Yes, Itachi put him in this situation but as everyone but you seem to know, that was out of Itachi's hands. Sasuke had to play off the hand that was dealt and he...well he didn't play wisely.


How?
I guess you missed the point
The people listed were ones who faced discrimination/prejudice/oppression etc and perservered (you can't really argue none of those listed didn't, Hinata was simply the obvious Non-Jinchuuriki I could remember in the first few seconds)
White Fang did not perservere and indeed was unable to be a hero

Hinata came out on top because Naruto kicked the crap out of Neji. It wasn't like Hinata persevered and overcame Neji. Naruto just brought Neji the gift of logic.


Then Enlighten us as to how else he could have stopped it?


Find me a manga site that has the chapter and I'll find you evidence other than...

Sarutobi was retired and over 60 years old. Minato, the 25 year old village leader in his prime, instead of calling to his mentor's mentor who knew the same technique he did, he chose to take care of it himself which in return, left the village very vulnerable.


Again these are simply your standards
Unless saving a best friend is not comparable to saving a baby?


Not considerable feat though. People have saved people lots in this story under much worse conditions with less ways to solve the problem at hand.


Not the greatest threat?
so that whole mutinational war?Moons Eye Plan? World Domination? aren't threats?


Technically yes but in reality no, they aren't. Tobi is the Japanese equivalent to King Richard the 3rd. Tobi's actual fighting abilities are cowardly and, as we've seen now, lets his left and right hand men do all the dirty work for him yet he is the one who is getting the credit for everything.


Wrong Character
Kyuubi=Overpowered


No I was right the first time. Minato has a cheap as hell technique that allows him to cop out of everything. Kyuubi, while it's "super strong" was defeated by Hashirama, Madara, Minato, and Those Twins. If we count Jinchuriki then Darui, Tenten, Orochimaru, Sasuke, etc...etc... Kyuubi is not overpowered. And if you say he is you're only proving my point more because Minato made the Kyuubi look like a toy fox.


Neither did Itachi

He didn't. Itachi did not die during his plan. He died long after. Dumbledore logic. He would rather had his brother kill him and gain the credit than have the pathetic disease he got from a villain kill him.


We have the same success rate tho
0%

Heroes don't need to succeed. In fact that's why I hate superhero things usually(except The Dark Knight) because heroes can't always succeed. Hell, even over 50% for anyone that isn't Superman is ridiculous.

[Jαckums]

The lone fact that Itachi killed his entire clan to prevent a coup and in turn, a civil war, makes him a hero.

It was stated that if he hadn't done so, a civil war would erupt within the Leaf, which would result in other nations taking advantage of this weakness and attacking, which would then result in the next shinobi war. Itachi single-handedly prevented a great war. If that doesn't make him a hero, then neither is Naruto or any other of the series' protagonists. The current war is irrelevant to that, as it's all of the shinobi nations versus Akatsuki. So saying "well there was still a war in the end" is invalid. He prevented a war that would potentially be more devastating than the current one. He's a hero in every sense of the word.

[WhiteFang]

The lone fact that Itachi killed his entire clan to prevent a coup and in turn, a civil war, makes him a hero.

It was stated that if he hadn't done so, a civil war would erupt within the Leaf, which would result in other nations taking advantage of this weakness and attacking, which would then result in the next shinobi war. Itachi single-handedly prevented a great war. If that doesn't make him a hero, then neither is Naruto or any other of the series' protagonists. The current war is irrelevant to that, as it's all of the shinobi nations versus Akatsuki. So saying "well there was still a war in the end" is invalid. He prevented a war that would potentially be more devastating than the current one. He's a hero in every sense of the word.

The thing is though; we never can be 100% sure that an all-out civil war would've resulted (and you know, I'm just saying that you can never really 100% trust Madara - he had his ulterior motives). And then what about the women and children? You can't call him a hero-hero. He is too grey for that, done too many shady things. If he, let's say, prevented one potential war; he equally became a willful sole cause of another. He is the singular reason for twisting Sasuke due to his delusional planning.

[Pokeaotics]

The thing is though; we never can be 100% sure that an all-out civil war would've resulted (and you know, I'm just saying that you can never really 100% trust Madara - he had his ulterior motives). And then what about the women and children? You can't call him a hero-hero. He is too grey for that, done too many shady things. If he, let's say, prevented one potential war; he equally became a willful sole cause of another. He is the singular reason for twisting Sasuke due to his delusional planning.
The fact is that he was just following orders. The Hokage told him to kill everyone, so he killed everyone... save Sasuke. Obviously common sense would tell us that to prevent the civil war that would have resulted the women could have been spared, but that was what he was ordered to do, whether or not it was justified. He was a hero because he could follow orders that prevented a war, not just do the job half assed.

[Smiley]

Who bumped this dinosaur of a thread? And sweet St. Darwin, it's been three years?

[WhiteFang]

The fact is that he was just following orders. The Hokage told him to kill everyone, so he killed everyone... save Sasuke. Obviously common sense would tell us that to prevent the civil war that would have resulted the women could have been spared, but that was what he was ordered to do, whether or not it was justified. He was a hero because he could follow orders that prevented a war, not just do the job half assed.

No, it was pretty damn half-assed considering he left Sasuke alive and what he proceeded to do with him and what that line of approach has resulted in. Since when does following orders like a mindless fool make you a hero anyway? :lol: And iirc, Hiruzen never ordered, it was Danzou and the elders. Itachi is some level of an idiot for listening to those radical old farts.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

He was protecting the village. Are you blind?
Telling the village the truth would have had no impact on their survival
So that argument doesn't work

If he tells people the truth about what happened and how the only Uchiha that was a threat was the one who secretly survived would disgrace both Itachi and Sasuke but the entire Konoha government as well because it was THEIR order and THEIR secret plan so the blame would fall on them as well.
I suppose that they had evidence of this coup did they not?

So eliminate the soldiers
And expose the coup with madara suitably painted as the mastermind

And how is this going to be bad for everyone?



-is trying to remember that-
[SPOILER]Snape kills Dumbledore


In Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Snape is named Headmaster of Hogwarts, while Death Eaters Alecto and Amycus Carrow are appointed to the Hogwarts staff. The novel later reveals that Snape uses his position as Headmaster to protect the students and to contain the Carrows. In the course of the book, Harry and Ron are led to find the Sword of Godric Gryffindor by a Patronus taking the form of a doe. Harry later learns that this was Snape's Patronus, taking the same shape as Harry's mother Lily's Patronus, and that Snape had been tasked by Dumbledore with ensuring that Harry gained possession of the sword


Snape's memories then reveal that Dumbledore had been afflicted by a powerful curse cast on the Gaunt ring, one of Voldemort's Horcruxes, prior to the start of Harry's sixth year at Hogwarts. Although Snape's knowledge of the Dark Arts enabled him to slow the spread of the curse, the curse would have ultimately killed Dumbledore within a year. Dumbledore, aware that Voldemort had ordered Draco to kill him, asked Snape to kill him instead as a way of sparing the boy's soul and of preventing his own otherwise slow, painful death. Although Snape was reluctant, even asking about the impact of such an action on his own soul, Dumbledore implied that this kind of coup de grâce would not damage a human's soul in the same way murder would. Snape agreed to do as the Headmaster requested. Snape's memories also provide Harry with the information he needs to ensure Voldemort's final defeat, in the form of conversations Snape had with Dumbledore.

As for Snape having the wand

However, since Draco Malfoy had disarmed Dumbledore, the plan failed and Draco unwittingly became the wand's new master

So it wasn't evil because he was asked to do an evil deed for the sake of good? Where have I heard that before? Right. That's my god damn point.
No because here is the difference
Dumledore asked to die HIMSELF
Itachi killed OTHERS

it would be like if snape went and killed, several randoms instead

The Uchiha's.
Ultimately, you don't know shit. You don't know what would have happened had the Uchiha's survived therefore you can't say he didn't save anybody because you don't know.
I don't have to know what they would have done to know that Civilians like their mum would be no more a threat to a major village then Ramen Guy is

Dad = Head of the Police Unit, no? If the Uchiha were planning something, he'd be near the top.
Yes i never argued that one


Last I checked 2/3 of them didn't do that to acquire MS.
Madara....supposedly did, and so did his brother (These are hardest to check)
Itachi....Shishui
Kakashi....Obito
Sasuke....Itachi

sasuke showed that the death of the close person was necessary but not necessarily by doing somethign dramatic like stabbing them in the back
This opens Kakashi to the same

Nevertheless it was still attempted which should qualify him as a hero
Fine he gets a participation award
Doesn't make his plan any better


About the "conspiracy" regarding the deaths of the Uchiha.
Conspiracy?

Last I checked literally everyone alive but a few people still believe that.
So everyone loves the uchihas?
hurrah hurrah

If something the soldier does while following orders is questionable, who is held responsible?
That depends, what is the soldier doing?

Unless the soldier does something drastic/against orders.
Drastic?
like massacring a village of civilians?

Yes, Itachi put him in this situation but as everyone but you seem to know, that was out of Itachi's hands.
And hence why he is to blame (Yes partly to blame cos Sasuke didn't help either)
And don't forget that Itachi meddled in Sasukes life everytime he tried to get away from this hellhole Itachi created for him

Hinata came out on top because Naruto kicked the crap out of Neji. It wasn't like Hinata persevered and overcame Neji. Naruto just brought Neji the gift of logic.
Swing and a miss
Ok this is no longer relevant so really lets just drop this
White Fang was not a hero

Find me a manga site that has the chapter and I'll find you evidence other than...
Knock yourself out
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-502/page002.html

instead of calling to his mentor's mentor who knew the same technique he did,
We don't know when Sarutobi actually learned that ability


Not considerable feat though. People have saved people lots in this story under much worse conditions with less ways to solve the problem at hand.
Example?

Technically yes but in reality no, they aren't. Tobi is the Japanese equivalent to King Richard the 3rd. Tobi's actual fighting abilities are cowardly and, as we've seen now, lets his left and right hand men do all the dirty work for him yet he is the one who is getting the credit for everything.

Does that make Madara any less of a threat?
This is a common thing for bad guys with lots of henchmen

Kyuubi, while it's "super strong" was defeated by Hashirama, Madara,
Yes the guys who can neutralise it without actually having to fight it
good good

Minato,
Who SUMMONED THE GOD OF DEATH

and Those Twins.
Who were stupid as heck and made no sense at all

If we count Jinchuriki then Darui, Tenten, Orochimaru, Sasuke, etc...etc...
huh?

Kyuubi is not overpowered. And if you say he is you're only proving my point more because Minato made the Kyuubi look like a toy fox.
Minato SUMMONED THE FREAKING GOD OF DEATH

Itachi did not die during his plan. He died long after.
What about his "Gift"
Doesn't that signify that his "Plan" is still ongoing?
Or not?

Heroes don't need to succeed.
Umm yeah it is generally good if the hero succeeds

In fact that's why I hate superhero things usually(except The Dark Knight) because heroes can't always succeed. Hell, even over 50% for anyone that isn't Superman is ridiculous.
Yeeeeaaahhhhh
We need to see more heroes failing miserably and allowing villains to run rampant through the streets

[Mattus]

No, it was pretty damn half-assed considering he left Sasuke alive and what he proceeded to do with him and what that line of approach has resulted in. Since when does following orders like a mindless fool make you a hero anyway? :lol: And iirc, Hiruzen never ordered, it was Danzou and the elders. Itachi is some level of an idiot for listening to those radical old farts.

Oh come on! Half-assed because he left one person alive? :lol: He left an Uchiha who, let's face it, had no talent and gun to anyone's head, they would have bet anything that Sasuke would not have turned evil. Itachi knew his brother more than anyone and chose to leave him alive for this reason. Yes, he was wrong. However are you seriously going to blame him on misjudging the development of a year old while he was busy killing his family? That's like saying you did a great job cleaning the house now where's my fucking dinner. You're just poking holes in it and being negative for the sake of being negative.

Continuing that point about being negative for the sake of being negative - The elders are the two people who, arguably, have more power than the Hokage or at least enough power to be the Hokage's adviser. And Danzou was the head of the secret ANBU which, if you actually think about it, would have been the ones to carry out the mission.


Telling the village the truth would have had no impact on their survival
So that argument doesn't work

I'm confused now.


I suppose that they had evidence of this coup did they not?

So eliminate the soldiers
And expose the coup with madara suitably painted as the mastermind

And how is this going to be bad for everyone?

1. It wasn't the just the soldiers. There was no way to tell who was in on it.
2. Expose the coup and frame a man who they did not catch and that was supposed to be dead for the last 70 years?
3. If post 1 and 2 didn't do it for you then I don't know what could.


No because here is the difference
Dumledore asked to die HIMSELF
Itachi killed OTHERS

it would be like if snape went and killed, several randoms instead

Snape was told to kill by his superior.
Itachi was told to kill by his superior.

No matter what you say, it all comes down to the fact that they followed an unbearably hard order that was given to them by their superior.


I don't have to know what they would have done to know that Civilians like their mum would be no more a threat to a major village then Ramen Guy is

Pein was a civilian.
Jiriaya technically was, unless there's an ex-ninja rank.

Point is, is doesn't matter what their status is, proof of that is the simple fact that a lot of the story and the bad things that have happened have been fueled by a 13/16 year old boy. Wouldn't think that a kid would cause that much trouble would you? Wouldn't think a mom would kill innocent people but you know what? You don't know.


Madara....supposedly did, and so did his brother (These are hardest to check)
Itachi....Shishui
Kakashi....Obito
Sasuke....Itachi

sasuke showed that the death of the close person was necessary but not necessarily by doing somethign dramatic like stabbing them in the back
This opens Kakashi to the same

Then you cannot say that Itachi acquired MS selfishly. He was shown to acquire it during the mission. Maybe he had to kill Shishui because he was a traitor. Can you prove that statement wrong?

Also Kakashi never killed Obito and Obito had been dead for 2 decades before Kakashi got MS.


Fine he gets a participation award
Doesn't make his plan any better

His plan was to save the village both from the Uchiha and from itself, was it not? Did he not step in for 1, save his brother and 2, stop the village from killing the Uchiha?


So everyone loves the uchihas?
hurrah hurrah

No, everyone believes Itachi is still the murder that they believed he was when we first met him.


Drastic?
like massacring a village of civilians?

No. Like killing a village without just cause.


And hence why he is to blame (Yes partly to blame cos Sasuke didn't help either)
And don't forget that Itachi meddled in Sasukes life everytime he tried to get away from this hellhole Itachi created for him

You mean that one time that Sasuke heard Itachi was around and Itachi didn't want anything to do with him? Or you mean the second time they met after the massacre where Sasuke "killed" him.

So you'll have to forgive me, I guess I did forget the part where Itachi was always meddling with Sasuke.


Swing and a miss
Ok this is no longer relevant so really lets just drop this
White Fang was not a hero

No that's completely and 100% correct. Go read the damn manga. The oppression on Hinata came from Neji, why did it stop? Naruto, not Hinata overcoming him. Just like I said.


Knock yourself out
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-502/page002.html


http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-503/page014.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-503/page016.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-503/page017.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-503/page018.html

He did not need to use that technique. Sarutobi was there, he could have. He did not need to make Naruto's first 12 years miserable. Madara was still alive, Minato could have tracked him down instead.

You all give Minato credit. What the fuck has he done that has compared to his wife? Minato teleports a fox and is wasted. His wife gave birth, had her son threatened and stolen literally 10 seconds after he was born, had a giant demon fox ripped out of her and tied to her via chains, and then ends getting stabbed, no? Kushina > Minato.


We don't know when Sarutobi actually learned that ability


He learned it from the 4th. Therefore he learned it before his death.


Example?

Minato saved Naruto using a teleportation technique from one room to another. And you want an example of someone saving someone else in a worse condition than that?

I could literally give you every instance of someone saving someone else and have it be worse than that example.


Does that make Madara any less of a threat?
This is a common thing for bad guys with lots of henchmen

In a way.


Yes the guys who can neutralise it without actually having to fight it
good good

Point still works.


Who SUMMONED THE GOD OF DEATH

Who didn't need to.


Who were stupid as heck and made no sense at all


And did it nonetheless.


huh?

They all defeated the jinchuriki form of Kyuubi which could, arguably, be more dangerous.


Minato SUMMONED THE FREAKING GOD OF DEATH

He didn't need to.


What about his "Gift"
Doesn't that signify that his "Plan" is still ongoing?
Or not?

His plan =/= The plan that is the topic of this thread, iirc.


Umm yeah it is generally good if the hero succeeds

But makes it all the more sad when he/she doesn't. Sad is a stronger emotion than whatever pitiful emotion people claim to feel when a good guy wins in a cliche way therefore as far as I'm concerned it's better writing because it manipulates emotions which is one of the two jobs of a writer, as far as I'm concerned. The other is entertainment, of course.


Yeeeeaaahhhhh
We need to see more heroes failing miserably and allowing villains to run rampant through the streets

More Villains is always better than more shitty writers. The hero that always wins is just a badly written hero. I mean even Goku lost...just about every time actually.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I'm confused now.
Are we talking past each other again?

1. It wasn't the just the soldiers. There was no way to tell who was in on it.
What does it matter
Helpless civilians can easily be arrested and not killed
Now, fine, I accept that in a battle like that it was probably inevitable that some civilans would be killed simply because of the nature of Shinobi fights (I am not going to say no civilians because that would be unrealistic)
But all of them, essentially murdered simply by association to the coup?

2. Expose the coup and frame a man who they did not catch and that was supposed to be dead for the last 70 years?
Yeah you know the same guy that launched the Kyuubi attack on the village?
wouldn't be hard to paint him as a villain now would it?

Snape was told to kill by his superior.
Itachi was told to kill by his superior.
Snape was told to kill his superior
Itachi killed civilians

Biiiiiiiig difference

No matter what you say, it all comes down to the fact that they followed an unbearably hard order that was given to them by their superior.
One involved killing a dying man at his own request
The other slaughtering an entire village, including civilians
See the difference in scale?

Pein was a civilian.
Pein was a Shinobi

Jiriaya technically was, unless there's an ex-ninja rank.
He was still a shinobi
Which is the narutoverse equivalent to a soldier

Point is, is doesn't matter what their status is, proof of that is the simple fact that a lot of the story and the bad things that have happened have been fueled by a 13/16 year old boy. Wouldn't think that a kid would cause that much trouble would you? Wouldn't think a mom would kill innocent people but you know what? You don't know.
It is interesting what Shinobi can do isn't it
Civilians now
What have they really done?

Then you cannot say that Itachi acquired MS selfishly. He was shown to acquire it during the mission. Maybe he had to kill Shishui because he was a traitor. Can you prove that statement wrong?
What?
what does this have to do with anything I said?

Also Kakashi never killed Obito and Obito had been dead for 2 decades before Kakashi got MS.
And when did Kakashi manifest MS?
we simply don't know
Plus again Sasuke showed that it can be activated AFTER the fact

His plan was to save the village both from the Uchiha and from itself,
How did he save it from itself?

No, everyone believes Itachi is still the murder that they believed he was when we first met him.
Isn't he?
he still massacred civilians
Now it is simply a question of scale and justification isn't it?

No. Like killing a village without just cause.
Or killing to many above the scope of just cause

You mean that one time that Sasuke heard Itachi was around and Itachi didn't want anything to do with him? Or you mean the second time they met after the massacre where Sasuke "killed" him.
Or like the time Itachi randomly used Tsukyomi to force him to relive the murder of his parents many many many times in a row before babbling his Hatred speech at him

No that's completely and 100% correct. Go read the damn manga. The oppression on Hinata came from Neji, why did it stop? Naruto, not Hinata overcoming him. Just like I said.
I don't care where it came from
I don't really care about the damn specifics either

It was merely a parrallel
Hinata/Gaara/Killerbee was pressured throughout her/his life and now she/he is surrounded by friends and happy
WF was pressured and he caved and committed suicide
THAT was the only point
And that is the end of my arguing such a useless point

Sarutobi was there, he could have.
none of your links support anything like this conclusion
Again you don't know how or when Sarutobi learned Shiki Fuujin


He did not need to make Naruto's first 12 years miserable.
he was dead
Kinda out of his hands at that point

Madara was still alive, Minato could have tracked him down instead.
Tracked him down
How?

Kushina > Minato.
Then do you not consider her a hero either?

He learned it from the 4th. Therefore he learned it before his death.
Your forgetting that Jutsus can also be learnt from scrolls
like Naruto and Shadow Clones
So you cannot prove he learnt it directly from the forth

Minato saved Naruto using a teleportation technique from one room to another. And you want an example of someone saving someone else in a worse condition than that?
Yep
Don;t forget that the main bad guy was also present as were other parties etc in danger

Point still works.
Not really
Having an ability to bypass the strength doesn't make Kyuubi any less strong

Who didn't need to.
because someone who you can't prove even had the ability would do it?

And did it nonetheless.
And made no sense

They all defeated the jinchuriki form of Kyuubi which could, arguably, be more dangerous.
A limited form that is impeded by the human it is trapped inside?
No not more dangerous

His plan =/= The plan that is the topic of this thread, iirc.
Which plan then?
Which plan was over when he died and how is it different from this new plan?

But makes it all the more sad when he/she doesn't.
yes but to do it constantly becomes sad in a much less entertaining way (Who roots for the hero that never wins?)

More Villains is always better than more shitty writers. The hero that always wins is just a badly written hero. I mean even Goku lost...just about every time actually.
Ah but then that was mutiple heros
Didn't mean Gokus loss was any less of a loss

[WhiteFang]

Oh come on! Half-assed because he left one person alive? :lol: He left an Uchiha who, let's face it, had no talent and gun to anyone's head, they would have bet anything that Sasuke would not have turned evil. Itachi knew his brother more than anyone and chose to leave him alive for this reason. Yes, he was wrong. However are you seriously going to blame him on misjudging the development of a year old while he was busy killing his family? That's like saying you did a great job cleaning the house now where's my fucking dinner. You're just poking holes in it and being negative for the sake of being negative.

Continuing that point about being negative for the sake of being negative - The elders are the two people who, arguably, have more power than the Hokage or at least enough power to be the Hokage's adviser. And Danzou was the head of the secret ANBU which, if you actually think about it, would have been the ones to carry out the mission.


So your only argument against my claims is that I'm being negative? So? Doesn't make my argument any less valid. Not to mention I prefer to call it "critical". :p

Actually, no. Itachi just wasn't wrong there, at that time. Itachi willfully turned Sasuke into a dangerous, mentally unstable villain with a chain of idiotic, unnecessary actions i.e. he made an utterly stupid plan. Sasuke finally found some semblance of peace and stability after so many years and Itachi came and effectively wrecked it in a matter of minutes, pretty much deliberately. It is a demented way of thinking which is the anti-thesis of what it means to be heroic. And Itachi has always been a passive kind of character who has never been shown to be directly indulging in something which would've led to the benefit of the world since after he joined Akatsuki.

Itachi followed a grey-ish path deliberately for his own selfish reasons which primarily included keeping the Uchiha name untainted. It wasn't heroic. He could've easily sided with the truth and seen the way things would've panned out. BTW, the Hokage was always the man, in the end. It's why Danzou hid like a pip-squeak so long as he was around. It's why Itachi came around to "warn him" after the 3rd died, actually (or so Madara claims).

He may have done some things, but there is too much he hasn't done and several things he messed up; he isn't some huge hero you make him out to be.

Lastly, it's better if we don't go down the "very good intentions" route; results are what matter the most in the end - there are several idiots who think good and try to do good but mess up, but few have the guts to actually side with the truth, do good and make things work out - it is the fundamental difference between heroes and hero-wannabes.

[Mattus]

Actually, no. Itachi just wasn't wrong there, at that time. Itachi willfully turned Sasuke into a dangerous, mentally unstable villain with a chain of idiotic, unnecessary actions i.e. he made an utterly stupid plan.

The only part of "his" plan that was his plan was the part that had him killing them instead of Konoha.
Secondly, he kept Sasuke alive because he could not bear the thought of killing his little brother. Not to throw him down a dark path.


Sasuke finally found some semblance of peace and stability after so many years and Itachi came and effectively wrecked it in a matter of minutes, pretty much deliberately. It is a demented way of thinking which is the anti-thesis of what it means to be heroic. And Itachi has always been a passive kind of character who has never been shown to be directly indulging in something which would've led to the benefit of the world since after he joined Akatsuki.

>implying Itachi showed up to see Sasuke instead of what really happened.


Itachi followed a grey-ish path deliberately for his own selfish reasons which primarily included keeping the Uchiha name untainted. It wasn't heroic. He could've easily sided with the truth and seen the way things would've panned out. BTW, the Hokage was always the man, in the end. It's why Danzou hid like a pip-squeak so long as he was around. It's why Itachi came around to "warn him" after the 3rd died, actually (or so Madara claims).

Itachi did it to save his brother. This is what I meant by you're being negative.
He didn't do it to save the Uchiha name, they were going down anyway. He didn't do it to save himself, he was going down anyway. There is only ONE thing that is changed between the two scenarios - Sasuke lives in Itachi's, dies in Danzou.


He may have done some things, but there is too much he hasn't done and several things he messed up; he isn't some huge hero you make him out to be.

Too much he hasn't done? Like?
Messed several things up? Like?

He is a huge hero because he volunteered for this unbearable task and carried it out on his own. Sasuke turning out bad is due to Sasuke's personality. Yes, Itachi is partially to blame for it but you're being beyond biased if you think that ANY of this would have happened without Orochimaru interfering. Orochimaru is why Sasuke is how he is. Undeniable. Simply undeniable.


Lastly, it's better if we don't go down the "very good intentions" route; results are what matter the most in the end - there are several idiots who think good and try to do good but mess up, but few have the guts to actually side with the truth, do good and make things work out - it is the fundamental difference between heroes and hero-wannabes.

Wannabes is a harsh word. You might as well say hero-who-i-don't-like-therefore-is-not-a-hero.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Not to throw him down a dark path.
"foolish little brother, if you truly want to kill me, Hate me! Detest me! live a wretched and miserable existence, run run and cling to life"
-Itachi Uchiha
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-400/page014.html
"He turned your life into a quest for vengeance on himself"
-Uchiha Madara
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-400/page015.html
"Why are you weak? Still not enough Hatefulness"
-Itachi Uchiha
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-148/page001.html

Regardless of what his end goals were
It was stuff like this that did not help his brother become a well adjusted individual

He didn't do it to save the Uchiha name, they were going down anyway.
"He wanted you to continue believing that the Uchiha were the pride of the Hidden Leaf Village"
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-400/page015.html

Yes, Itachi is partially to blame for it but you're being beyond biased if you think that ANY of this would have happened without Orochimaru interfering. Orochimaru is why Sasuke is how he is. Undeniable. Simply undeniable.
Very deniable
Oro was nothing in all of this
Oro merely fed of the hatred that was already there

Sasuke was messed up before Oro and was still messed up afterwards
Oro changed little

[Jαckums]

Yes, Itachi is partially to blame for it but you're being beyond biased if you think that ANY of this would have happened without Orochimaru interfering. Orochimaru is why Sasuke is how he is. Undeniable. Simply undeniable.

I just had to cut in here and quote this for truth.

Itachi is the cause for Sasuke's traumatic childhood, but beyond that, the rest is just due to Sasuke's personality. He made the choices he did. Itachi set out the path for Sasuke, but he didn't have to take it.

He was manipulated by Orochimaru, who was the driving factor that spurred Sasuke's goal for revenge by offering him power and playing on his weakness (his want for revenge and past with Itachi). It was quite clear after Kakashi gave Sasuke that lecture that Sasuke was calming down and actually considering what Kakashi had offered. If it hadn't been for the Sound Four showing up, I'm confident in saying that I don't believe Sasuke would be where he is now. Orochimaru was the conduit for Sasuke's revenge.

Itachi did little but give Sasuke the starting tools.

[Mattus]

"foolish little brother, if you truly want to kill me, Hate me! Detest me! live a wretched and miserable existence, run run and cling to life"
-Itachi Uchiha
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-400/page014.html
"He turned you life into a quest for vengeance on himself"
-Uchiha Madara
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-400/page015.html
"Why are you weak? Still not enough Hatefulness"
-Itachi Uchiha
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-148/page001.html

Regardless of what his end goals were
It was stuff like this that did not help his brother become a well adjusted individual


I cannot deny the first two but anything Madara said is to be taken with a grain of salt. Using Madara as proof is not always a good idea.


Very deniable
Oro was nothing in all of this
Oro merely fed of the hatred that was already there

Sasuke was messed up before Oro and was still messed up afterwards
Oro changed little

:facepalm: You're just disagreeing with anyone that sides with the Uchiha says. That is the only logical explanation for this blatant disregard of the entire manga.

Sasuke hated Itachi, yes. But did he take strong action against it? No.
When did he take strong action against Itachi? When he saw Itachi, sure. But when else....

Oh yes, I think it might have been when Orochimaru manipulated Sasuke into thinking that he could help him and then sending his goons after Sasuke to expose Sasuke's biggest insecurity(that he was weak) in order to get Sasuke to come to him.

Sasuke would have stayed in Konoha had the sound 4 not shown up. Kakashi convinced him otherwise.

He would not have turned to evil for power had Orochimaru had not been there to dangle that opportunity in front of his face.

Allow me, if you will, to return to Star Wars yet again. Would Anikan have turned evil had Sidious not manipulated him? No. He had a bad attitude and anger problems, yes. But he would not have turned evil had Sidious not told him he could have saved Padme.

You denying that is beyond ridiculous. That is manga fact. This is not open for interpretation. You can actually witness Orochimaru doing these things. You can listen and look and read and it is right there in front of you. Your biased logic will not prove Kishimoto wrong on this one.

[Raikage's left hand]

I don't think Itachi showing up after so long, breaking Sasuke's wrist and making him watching his parents be raped by monkeys really helped Sasuke's psyche by any extent.

But i guess it was about time someone gave Sasuke the kick up the ass to get him into full fledged murder mode. It might as well have been his own brother.

[Mattus]

Hm, am I wrong? I find it strange that so many people are wrong and I'm the only one that is right. I guess I am wrong. Will someone show me where Itachi goes to Konoha in search of Sasuke? I seemed to have forgotten that part.

[Jαckums]

>people implying Sasuke has no mind of his own
>people implying he didn't make those choices out of his own free will

http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo105/Jackk_15/TADA/WUT.gif

[Mattus]

Jack, are you implying that Sasuke wasn't turned evil by his awful and horrible brother who wanted only to destroy everything? Because that would be going against the manga. And by manga, I mean two people on this forum.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I cannot deny the first two but anything Madara said is to be taken with a grain of salt. Using Madara as proof is not always a good idea.
And Madara is also where we get many of these supposed proofs of Itachis greatness etc
Interesting innit

Sasuke hated Itachi, yes. But did he take strong action against it? No.
Did he take strong action
Like making his lifes ambition his death?
or running out of the village at the mere hint of his name?
Or leaving the village completely to gain power to kill him?
Or trying to kill his best friend in order to gain power to kill him?

When did he take strong action against Itachi? When he saw Itachi, sure. But when else....
I'm not sure I really get this point?
When did he? well whenever he thought he could

Oh yes, I think it might have been when Orochimaru manipulated Sasuke into thinking that he could help him and then sending his goons after Sasuke to expose Sasuke's biggest insecurity(that he was weak) in order to get Sasuke to come to him.
Yes exactly
Oro exploited the weakness created by Itachi

Again Oro was not the cause of Sasukes problems
he merely manipulated them for his own advantage
Itachi was the one that turned Sasuke into a hate filled vengeance machine with everything from physical abuse to psychological torture

Sasuke would have stayed in Konoha had the sound 4 not shown up. Kakashi convinced him otherwise.
So?

He would not have turned to evil for power had Orochimaru had not been there to dangle that opportunity in front of his face.
And he wouldn't have turned to evil if someone didn't keep abusing him and claiming "hatred" was the key to victory
Again Oro merely exploited what was already there

Allow me, if you will, to return to Star Wars yet again. Would Anikan have turned evil had Sidious not manipulated him? No. He had a bad attitude and anger problems, yes. But he would not have turned evil had Sidious not told him he could have saved Padme.
Not really a parallel
You are comparing two characters to three
But think like this
If Anikins mother hadn't created the opening would Sisious have succeeded?
Like Oro, Darth Sidious merely exploited something that was already there, but he wasn't the creator of those feelings

[Mattus]

And Madara is also where we get many of these supposed proofs of Itachis greatness etc
Interesting innit

Touche. xD


Did he take strong action
Like making his lifes ambition his death?
or running out of the village at the mere hint of his name?
Or leaving the village completely to gain power to kill him?
Or trying to kill his best friend in order to gain power to kill him?

The first one is not an action.
The second one is the one and only action that was not influenced by Orochimaru.
He left the village because of Orochimaru.
He fought Naruto because of Orochimaru.


I'm not sure I really get this point?
When did he? well whenever he thought he could

My point was that before Orochimaru came along he never took any action to pursue Itachi or to dedicate his life to killing him. Yes, it was his ambition but he wasn't like Lee whose life goal was to be a ninja and who trained nearly 24/7 to become strong. The only time he took action is when he heard Itachi was nearby and, if i recall correctly, he only went because Naruto was his target.


Yes exactly
Oro exploited the weakness created by Itachi

So if I punch you in the face it's your father's fault for impregnating you mother. It's not my fault for doing the action no, it's the fault of the person that made the action an option?
In that case it's the fault of the big bang.
If you're going to be ridiculously anal about this and blame someone who did not do the action but just made the action possible, I will dismiss it with a point just as shitty as this one.


Again Oro was not the cause of Sasukes problems
he merely manipulated them for his own advantage
Itachi was the one that turned Sasuke into a hate filled vengeance machine with everything from physical abuse to psychological torture

So Itachi trained Sasuke? So Itachi made Sasuke leave the village? Did Itachi make Sasuke fight Naruto?

Itachi didn't make Sasuke do anything but hate him. That is the one and only thing Itachi did. Orochimaru wanted Sasuke for himself and promise Sasuke power to kill Itachi. Sasuke went with Orochimaru via his own free will, not Itachi. The fact of the matter is Orochimaru was the one who influenced and manipulated Sasuke. Yes, Sasuke had anger and hate built up but that didn't define him until Orochimaru came along.


And he wouldn't have turned to evil if someone didn't keep abusing him and claiming "hatred" was the key to victory
Again Oro merely exploited what was already there

Keep? He showed up once! Jesus you anti-uchiha people throw everything out of proportion and stretch it to its end in order to twist everything around to make it worse than it really is.

Itachi showed up once and did not want anything to do with Sasuke until Sasuke refused to not try and kill him.

Orochimaru exploited Sasuke's feelings. That was Orochimaru's doing, not Itachi's doing therefore it was Orochimaru's fault that those feelings were exploited.


Not really a parallel
You are comparing two characters to three
But think like this
If Anikins mother hadn't created the opening would Sisious have succeeded?
Like Oro, Darth Sidious merely exploited something that was already there, but he wasn't the creator of those feelings

It doesn't matter where the feelings came from or why they are there, it only matters who is manipulative enough to make those feelings become action and reality.
Feelings mean nothing, actions mean everything.
Itachi made Sasuke feel. Orochimaru made Sasuke act.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

The second one is the one and only action that was not influenced by Orochimaru.
He left the village because of Orochimaru.
He fought Naruto because of Orochimaru.
He didn't try to kill Naruto because of Oro
He tried to kill him in order to gain the power to kill his brother (later opting out of that)

however everything Oro did would be irrelevant if not for Itachis creation of hatred within Sasuke

My point was that before Orochimaru came along he never took any action to pursue Itachi or to dedicate his life to killing him.
Umm yes he did
Chapter 4
"I have an ambition. The ressurection of my clan and to kill a certain man"
-Sasuke Uchiha
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-004/page007.html

Yes, it was his ambition but he wasn't like Lee whose life goal was to be a ninja and who trained nearly 24/7 to become strong.
Ambition
—Synonyms
1. aspiration, yearning, longing. 2. goal, aim. 3. drive, force.

So if I punch you in the face it's your father's fault for impregnating you mother. It's not my fault for doing the action no, it's the fault of the person that made the action an option?
Ok lets address this rather poor counter
Lets say you punch me in the face
Itachi would be the guy behind you egging you on/threatening you/or otherwise influencing you to do this
Thus he is in part responsible for your actions

Itachi didn't make Sasuke do anything but hate him. That is the one and only thing Itachi did.
Itachi did more then that
He manipulated his brother at two major junctions
He fed his hatred continuously and even at the end he messed with him

Sasuke was a hatred filled character exactly as Itachi made him when he left him after the massacre and then otrtured with the murder of their parents

Sasuke went with Orochimaru via his own free will, not Itachi.
Yes sasuke was as much to blame for himself
However again the source of all of this is not Oro, but Itachi

Itachi showed up once and did not want anything to do with Sasuke until Sasuke refused to not try and kill him.
And Itachis response was not completely sadistic and over the bounds of anything?
He beats Sasuke physically to the point where he can't stand, not content with that he then uses some sadistic mind torture on him before administering some more nasty comments

Orochimaru exploited Sasuke's feelings. That was Orochimaru's doing, not Itachi's doing therefore it was Orochimaru's fault that those feelings were exploited.
And who was the creator of those feelings?
And when Sasuke began to let them go Itachi once more needlessly fuelled them again during their encounter in a brutal and sadistic fashion

It doesn't matter where the feelings came from or why they are there, it only matters who is manipulative enough to make those feelings become action and reality.
Those feelings were created so they could BECOME reality
Itachi didn't fill him with hatred so he could become a hippy flower child
He filled him with hatred to make him a hatred filled individual

Feelings mean nothing, actions mean everything.
Feelings are the basis of your actions
No feelings=no actions

Itachi made Sasuke feel. Orochimaru made Sasuke act.
Oro merely gave sasuke the option to act upon the feelings created by Itachi

[Mattus]

He didn't try to kill Naruto because of Oro

Sasuke was en route to Orochimaru. I guess technically he tried to kill Naruto in order to continue on to Orochimaru but if you get technical Naruto is the only person to blame because Naruto began fighting Sasuke.


He tried to kill him in order to gain the power to kill his brother (later opting out of that)

No, he tried to kill him in order to go to Orochimaru to gain power to kill his brother.


however everything Oro did would be irrelevant if not for Itachis creation of hatred within Sasuke

And everything Itachi did would be irrelevant had his father never got with Sasuke's mother.
But that would be irrelevant had Hashirama killed the Uchiha's.
But that would be irrelevant if Kishi was never born.

If, if, if. Blah, blah blah. That's a cop out and a shit point. Orochimaru manipulated Sasuke. NOT Itachi. Yes, Sasuke was easy to manipulate because of Itachi but that does not mean we can backtrack and blame someone else because then who decided how far we backtrack? Nobody therefore it's the universe's fault for creating itself if I go by your logic. But seeing as I'm going by real logic, I'm going by cause and effect. Orochimaru manipulated Sasuke, Sasuke went to Orochimaru.


Umm yes he did
Chapter 4
"I have an ambition. The ressurection of my clan and to kill a certain man"
-Sasuke Uchiha
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-004/page007.html

Really? He dedicated his life to that? Last I checked he was going on ninja missions, entering in tournaments, learning techniques, etc...etc.... He did not dedicate his life to that until Shippuden. THAT is dedication.


Ambition
—Synonyms
1. aspiration, yearning, longing. 2. goal, aim. 3. drive, force.

Ambition
---DEFINITION
1. an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power, honor, fame, or wealth.


Ok lets address this rather poor counter
Lets say you punch me in the face
Itachi would be the guy behind you egging you on/threatening you/or otherwise influencing you to do this
Thus he is in part responsible for your actions

Yes, he is, like we said to begin with. However he did not make me punch you in the face nor is he the main reason behind why I did, he is just the cause of my general attitude.

In order of fault.

Mine > The Manipulator > Itachi


Itachi did more then that
He manipulated his brother at two major junctions
He fed his hatred continuously and even at the end he messed with him

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Adam.

One of those two things is continuously. You seem to think that it's the second one. Newsflash - It's not.


Sasuke was a hatred filled character exactly as Itachi made him when he left him after the massacre and then otrtured with the murder of their parents

He was not as full of hatred as you think. You do not remember back then. He was determined and hated Itachi, but his action were not influenced by hate and only hate.


Yes sasuke was as much to blame for himself
However again the source of all of this is not Oro, but Itachi

The source of all of this is the universe for creating a location for Itachi to live. But if you want to actually be smart about it yes, it is the fault of Orochimaru, more so than Itachi because had Orochimaru not come along, Sasuke would not have left Konoha and become evil.


And Itachis response was not completely sadistic and over the bounds of anything?
He beats Sasuke physically to the point where he can't stand, not content with that he then uses some sadistic mind torture on him before administering some more nasty comments

It wasn't a continuous thing that he did several times.
He didn't seek Sasuke out to do this.

I believe Itachi justified this to Sasuke or Naruto but I'm not certain so I don't want to say.


And who was the creator of those feelings?

God and Webster's.


And when Sasuke began to let them go Itachi once more needlessly fuelled them again during their encounter in a brutal and sadistic fashion

And those feelings were going to die down but Orochimaru yet again exploited them and pushed Sasuke over the edge.

It was Orochimaru's fault that Sasuke left. Yes, Itachi pissed him off, that's real fuckin' neato. But did Itachi give Sasuke an opportunity to become stronger? Did Itachi tell him to leave his friends and family and become evil.

No. If I had to guess I would say Itachi loved and trusted his brother and thought that the more his brother hated him, the stronger he would try to become through good-natured means such as through his mentor at Konoha where he would learn to let go of his hate and be left with a strong and wise man. This clearly is not the case but if Itachi loved his brother as much as the manga seems to think he did, I would say that that was his plan. Not to turn his brother evil.


Those feelings were created so they could BECOME reality
Itachi didn't fill him with hatred so he could become a hippy flower child
He filled him with hatred to make him a hatred filled individual

Doubtful, as I've stated above.
Itachi inspired the feelings but Sasuke and Orochimaru acted upon them. In a court of law, Itachi would be an innocent man, Sasuke would be a murderer, and Orochimaru would be a charged with a minor murder or an accomplice, probably the latter. Itachi pissed Sasuke off, someone showed Sasuke a dark path, Sasuke took it. Itachi pissed him off, sure. But Orochimaru was the one who gave Sasuke the oppurtunities to do actual evil instead of hate Itachi.

Did Itachi make Sasuke do anything other than hate him? No.
Did Itachi want to? We do not know for sure.

Did Orochimaru make Sasuke do anything other than hate Itachi? Absolutely.
Did Orochimaru want to? You bet your ass he did.


Feelings are the basis of your actions
No feelings=no actions

Yet they mean nothing unless you act upon them, which was exactly my point.

Feelings = Sasuke from Chuunin Exams
Actions = Sasuke from Sasuke Retrieval and Onwards

If you can't see the difference then I am more certain than I already am that you don't actually read the manga and just read haters talking about Sasuke.


Oro merely gave sasuke the option to act upon the feelings created by Itachi

EXACTLY!

Itachi gave Sasuke feelings. Sasuke chose to act on them and Orochimaru manipulated him. Itachi did a little, sure. But Itachi is by far the least at fault here. Orochimaru manipulated Sasuke and Sasuke fell for it. Yes, Itachi pissed him off, again, that's real fuckin' neato. But did Itachi make Sasuke listen to Orochimaru? Did Itachi make Orochimaru manipulate Sasuke? The answer is no.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Sasuke was en route to Orochimaru.
I don't mean simply fight him
But KILL him
The way to obtain MS
"However there is a requirement, you must kill your best friend"
"to me you have become my closest friend"
"That is why it is worth killing you"
-Sasuke Uchiha, Itachi Uchiha
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-225/page019.html
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-226/page003.html


No, he tried to kill him in order to go to Orochimaru to gain power to kill his brother.
No because as he showed killing Naruto wasn't necessary for that
Killing Naruto would have been for MS

And everything Itachi did would be irrelevant had his father never got with Sasuke's mother.
But that would be irrelevant had Hashirama killed the Uchiha's.
But that would be irrelevant if Kishi was never born.
Think about it like this
Itachi with Sasuke=Direct cause
Hashirama etc=Indirect cause

that is how the causal chain works

Orochimaru manipulated Sasuke. NOT Itachi.
Itachi did manipulate Sasuke
By mental and physicl torture as well as deliberate misinformation

Yes, Sasuke was easy to manipulate because of Itachi but that does not mean we can backtrack and blame someone else because then who decided how far we backtrack?
it is simple
Backtract ONE cause
And you reach Itachi
the direct cause of these feelings

Without his actions and existence then these feelings cannot exist

Really? He dedicated his life to that? Last I checked he was going on ninja missions, entering in tournaments, learning techniques, etc...etc....
And how is that not dedicating his life?
How is training and learning techniques not part of this dedication?
is he supposed to beat him without ever actually training or learning anything?
Entering tournaments and going on ninja missions are the result of being part of a village and their system
None of that make it any less of a dedication

Ambition
---DEFINITION
1. an earnest desire for some type of achievement or distinction, as power, honor, fame, or wealth.
ambition
— n
1. strong desire for success, achievement, or distinction
2. something so desired; goal; aim
or
the object, state, or result desired or sought after

Yes, he is, like we said to begin with. However he did not make me punch you in the face nor is he the main reason behind why I did, he is just the cause of my general attitude.
Yes he is a cause of your attitude
So in being a cause of this act is he to blame (in any way) for theact itself?


In order of fault.

Mine > The Manipulator > Itachi
Itachi IS the manipulator

One of those two things is continuously. You seem to think that it's the second one. Newsflash - It's not.
Do you need to be present at every moment to be continously keeping something going?

He was not as full of hatred as you think. You do not remember back then. He was determined and hated Itachi, but his action were not influenced by hate and only hate.
At first he was a closed individual who alienated himself with his ambition (Earliest chapters)
Naruto changed that and Sasuke began to relent (After the Zabuza/ Haku arc up to the chuunin exams
Oro then came and tried to manipulate Sasukes feelings with minimal success (CS and end of chuunin exams)
Itachi then fueled that rage and hatred until not even Naruto could stop it and Sasuke was once more fuelled by rage (Rooftop)
Oro capitalised upon the rage created by Itachi which ultimately ended up killing Oro

it is the fault of Orochimaru, more so than Itachi because had Orochimaru not come along, Sasuke would not have left Konoha and become evil.
If Itachi hadn't physically and mentally tortured Sasuke then Oro would have had no leverage to use on Sasuke
Once again Oro merely exploited the rage created and fuelled by Itachi
before then Oro was unsuccessful in manipulating Sasuke


He didn't seek Sasuke out to do this.
He didn't have to
For example when Sasuke confronted him, Itachi could easily have just left without the huge mental torture etc he inflicted

And those feelings were going to die down but Orochimaru yet again exploited them and pushed Sasuke over the edge.
They were not even close to the edge until Itachi fuelled them excessively

Did Itachi tell him to leave his friends and family and become evil.
"If you want to kill me....curse me! hate me! and live a long and unsightly life...run away, run away and cling to your pitiful life."
-This one is somewhat a phrase where Itachi tells him to have a bad life (unsightly)
"And then some day when you have the same "eyes" as me, come before me"
-which as we all know was achieved by murdering your best friend (Other options not yet known to Sasuke or Itachi)
http://read.mangashare.com/Naruto/chapter-225/page005.html
So yeah Itachi does do that

No. If I had to guess I would say Itachi loved and trusted his brother and thought that the more his brother hated him, the stronger he would try to become through good-natured means such as through his mentor at Konoha where he would learn to let go of his hate and be left with a strong and wise man.
It is possible
However this doesn't change the reality of what Itachi created through his influence
no amount of good intentions will solve this

Itachi inspired the feelings but Sasuke and Orochimaru acted upon them. In a court of law, Itachi would be an innocent man,
I doubt it
Likely both oro and Itachi would be behind bars
Itachi would be a pretty easy case of child abuse

Itachi pissed Sasuke off, someone showed Sasuke a dark path, Sasuke took it. Itachi pissed him off, sure. But Orochimaru was the one who gave Sasuke the oppurtunities to do actual evil instead of hate Itachi.
Itachi didn't just sit by passively
as above passage have shown Itachi ACTIVELY encouraged Sasuke to murder his best friend and pursue power through hatred

Feelings = Sasuke from Chuunin Exams
Actions = Sasuke from Sasuke Retrieval and Onwards
Same feelings
From the beginnig to the revelation those feelings didn't change
Only their intensity which is directly related to the actions of Itachi

But did Itachi make Sasuke listen to Orochimaru?
Without Itachi would Sasuke have listened?
Not a chance

[Mattus]

:lol: It's midnight bro. I'll get back to you Saturday if I have time man, sorry. xD

[WhiteFang]

The only part of "his" plan that was his plan was the part that had him killing them instead of Konoha.
Secondly, he kept Sasuke alive because he could not bear the thought of killing his little brother. Not to throw him down a dark path.
Like I said intentions are irrelevant; whatever else ended up happening was also a by-product of Itachi's "plan" - he failed to see the holes in it and it's why we have a villain Sasuke. It doesn't matter he didn't "want" to do it, he did end up doing it. And it wasn't even inadvertent - he fucked Sasuke up so bad, deliberately, making him so disillusioned that he ran after Orochimaru for power.


>implying Itachi showed up to see Sasuke instead of what really happened.
Yeah, it's exactly why he showed up (http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-401-page-11.html).

According to Madara anyway. (http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-401-page-12.html)

And Madara's word is the only confirmation we have on the matter. But a good thing to say would be that he came to see both; what happened to Konoha and what happened to Sasuke (remind Danzou and the other to not dare harm Sasuke)


Itachi did it to save his brother. This is what I meant by you're being negative.
He didn't do it to save the Uchiha name, they were going down anyway. He didn't do it to save himself, he was going down anyway. There is only ONE thing that is changed between the two scenarios - Sasuke lives in Itachi's, dies in Danzou.

All his actions indicate otherwise. If he truly gave a damn about the Uchiha he would've blurted the truth but he didn't. He wanted the Uchiha to die victims so he became the scape goat for that himself - he made himself the monster. And he left Sasuke alive and then he did want Sasuke to kill him so Sasuke would become a hero - those were his exact intentions and it basically kept the Uchiha name untainted and untarnished and also made Sasuke a hero in the process.


Too much he hasn't done? Like?
He never told anyone Madara is alive. Considering he was in the damn organization so long he could've collected proof and proven it or even otherwise, the Third did trust him, he could've put this little theory in his head.
He could've given out useful intel about Akatsuki and their plans but he didn't.
If he was as damn powerful as he's claimed to be, he could've switched sides at a critical juncture and told the truth and also wrecked Akatsuki in the process (because he obviously did have knowledge on them) but he didn't and stuck with his "save the Uchiha name" and "make Sasuke a hero" plan.
Hell, he didn't even kill Orochimaru when he had the chance, even though he knew what a huge threat to Konoha he was (and I'm talking about when he had him as a sitting duck in a genjutsu at the time Oro was still in Akatsuki - he had every justifiable reason to - Akatsuki doesn't frown on killing another member on attack/provocation so his cover would've remained intact as well. And guess what? He would've prevented an entire damn war and well.. a huge source of all evil, but he didn't)



Messed several things up? Like?
You're asking this? Seriously? Madara got to Sasuke and messed him up, told him the truth, his little Amaterasu implant failed to work. Sasuke is now a villain. Konoha was destroyed. Naruto went Kyuubi... Oh yeah. As far as Itachi and his master planning is concerned, the world would've already gone to hell a long time back.


He is a huge hero because he volunteered for this unbearable task and carried it out on his own. Sasuke turning out bad is due to Sasuke's personality. Yes, Itachi is partially to blame for it but you're being beyond biased if you think that ANY of this would have happened without Orochimaru interfering. Orochimaru is why Sasuke is how he is. Undeniable. Simply undeniable.
Orochimaru? I agree Orochimaru has a role obviously - but mainly it is Itachi. Oro isn't the cause of Sasuke's traumas and distorted personality, it's Itachi. He mentally fucked him twice on purpose. He drove him into a corner, hit him when he was down, escalated his self-doubt and frustration and inferiority complex to the point that he ran with Orochimaru. And Itachi did nothing to stop his precious little brother turning into a demented soul. Itachi turned Sasuke into a revenge-monger by saying those words to him repeatedly, embedding them in his psyche right since the massacre when he was just a child.


Wannabes is a harsh word. You might as well say hero-who-i-don't-like-therefore-is-not-a-hero.
Absolutely not. Itachi is just that. He is too passive and never took conclusive positive actions for benefit of the good side as a whole but only restricted himself to Sasuke and his clan's paradigm.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 AM ----------


I don't think Itachi showing up after so long, breaking Sasuke's wrist and making him watching his parents be raped by monkeys really helped Sasuke's psyche by any extent.


:agree: