What is a True TN Debater?

[Kankurotto]

I want to ask the people of the Battledome some questions after I read how both Matt and Eric agreed how Muffin changed and adopted some characteristics of a certain Itachi-fanatic. (As well as some memorable controversial threads such as Bruce Lee vs. Mike Tyson, "Naruto is WEAK" and etc.) Not............ not that I disagree but this event inspired me to an extent. :p

Either way, here are the questions.

What is a true TN debater? How do we defy this member as a debater?

How much aggressiveness is necessary to put forth a point without getting infracted or even worse banned?

How are you guys distinguishing opinions from facts?

How are you guys debating against a fanboy/girl or/and the opposite side? (Anti-insertrandomcharacter.)

I'll put more questions up here when/if this thread will develop.

Discuss.

Note: I'm not asking 'who's the best debater of TN', there's already a thread for that. This is something else.

[0ba]

I actually don't know what kind of answer you're expecting. Maybe I'm just stupid. :p

[Kankurotto]

I actually don't know what kind of answer you're expecting. Maybe I'm just stupid. :p

Oh come on, honey. You have experience. :lol:

Just try! I want everyone's opinion on this one. You, Fang, MN, Drake and the whole band.

[Mattus]

I think this thread belongs on the front page.
Ryan and Andy, when you're done I'm moving the thread.

What is a true TN debater? How do we defy this member as a debater?


I have no opinion on this.
Jay would be my answer.
Unbiased, mixed with aggression, level-headedness, and logic.


How much aggressiveness is necessary to put forth a point without getting infracted or even worse banned?

Depends on the person.
Some people can't use aggression, others have trouble debating without it, others feel the need to use it, etc...
Basically, don't break any rules and you should be fine.


How are you guys distinguishing opinions from facts?

Proof.



How are you guys debating against a fanboy/girl or/and the opposite side? (Anti-insertrandomcharacter.)

Logic.


Note: I'm not asking 'who's the best debater of TN', there's already a thread for that. This is something else.[/CENTER]

Once again, the argument should be who is the second best debater.
Anyone who has posted in the battledome with a join date of 2007 or early 2008 knows who it is and anyone with a join date of 2007 knows it's fact.

[D.I.Y Death]

I think this thread belongs on the front page.
Ryan and Andy, when you're done I'm moving the thread.


I have no opinion on this.
Jay would be my answer.
Unbiased, mixed with aggression, level-headedness, and logic.



Depends on the person.
Some people can't use aggression, others have trouble debating without it, others feel the need to use it, etc...
Basically, don't break any rules and you should be fine.



Proof.




Logic.



Once again, the argument should be who is the second best debater.
Anyone who has posted in the battledome with a join date of 2007 or early 2008 knows who it is and anyone with a join date of 2007 knows it's fact.

I don't think there is a specific best debater. We each have our own approach and specialties making that more of a question about what is better: apples or pears? and we should all know that's simply a matter of opinion. Jackums could ask who's the worst debater and we could name a few because they lack any coherent style/are consistently wrong etc etc.

The most aggressive you can get without getting in shit is me and even sometimes I push the envelope a little too far.

[sproxy]

What is a true TN debater? How do we defy this member as a debater?
Well as Matt said (but without the naming someone off) its someone who shows calmness, uses logic and evidence to support there case rather than using their opinions as facts or their assumptions as facts.


How much aggressiveness is necessary to put forth a point without getting infracted or even worse banned?
By following the guidelines set in the rules XD

Really it mostly depends on how you put that agressivness out.


How are you guys distinguishing opinions from facts?
As Matt said "proof" and well "logic" 2 key factors


How are you guys debating against a fanboy/girl or/and the opposite side? (Anti-insertrandomcharacter.)
More proof and logic lol. Oh and definately calmness lol fanboy/girls can get pretty annoying sometimes XD but we're all fanboy/girls to a certain character XD

To be honest I dont really get what your getting at here :oh:

[Mattus]

I don't think there is a specific best debater. We each have our own approach and specialties making that more of a question about what is better: apples or pears? and we should all know that's simply a matter of opinion. Jackums could ask who's the worst debater and we could name a few because they lack any coherent style/are consistently wrong etc etc.

That's easy, BuyViagraOnline is the worst debater. I mean I state my case...he gives me a link to some pills....then the jackass pretends to get banned because I counter his point!

I agree with what you're saying, he's still better though. I'm sorry but take it from someone who has seen every debate he's been in and someone who has lost several times as well. Will can back me up, as can Lina.



The most aggressive you can get without getting in shit is me and even sometimes I push the envelope a little too far.

It's occasionally you.
I think it's Drake more than you.
You focus on the debate though as well, which I think is why you only occasionally push the envelope too far now.

[Kankurotto]

To be honest I dont really get what your getting at here :oh:

I'm just trying to find out the general opinion of what a debater is. :lol:

And I'm surprised some are even able to agree with each other here since on the battlefield itself it's a whole different story.

[Summer.]

That's easy, BuyViagraOnline is the worst debater. I mean I state my case...he gives me a link to some pills....then the jackass pretends to get banned because I counter his point!

I agree with what you're saying, he's still better though. I'm sorry but take it from someone who has seen every debate he's been in and someone who has lost several times as well. Will can back me up, as can Lina.

talking about Jay, aren't we? :)
yeah, I definitely without a second thought agree with Matt on this one.
Me and Matt were a great (actually I think that more than just great) debate duo in the past and as far as I can remember we won against Jay only twice.
lol, frustrating.

as for the question...
everything has already been said.
someone who can totally pwn their opponents without getting all pissy and offensive.

[Raikage's left hand]

What is a true TN debater? How do we defy this member as a debater?

Oh that's easy. Someone who debates on TN. There isn't any other required criteria that has to be met.


How much aggressiveness is necessary to put forth a point without getting infracted or even worse banned?

None. You can put forth a point without feeling anything at all. People just tend to get pissed when their points are ignored.


How are you guys distinguishing opinions from facts?

Opinion = I believe this character is stronger than another.

Fact = A character directly stated or shown to be stronger than another.

Stuff like that.


How are you guys debating against a fanboy/girl or/and the opposite side? (Anti-insertrandomcharacter.)

By being as laughably ludicrous and as insane as they are.


Note: I'm not asking 'who's the best debater of TN', there's already a thread for that. This is something else.

Well that's easy the best are clearly Nikushimi and Smiley. Only those two have actually swayed me to agree with them through their solid arguments and reasoning.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

This should be fun


What is a true TN debater?
Someone with good knowledge of the source material and a sound logical setup to their arguments

How do we defy this member as a debater?
With difficulty.
A good debater is hard to beat.
You just need to do your homework and think of the best counters

How much aggressiveness is necessary to put forth a point without getting infracted or even worse banned?
That depends.
some people are able to put forward alot of aggressiveness whilst still being great debaters and staying within the rules(Matt and Eric for example)
Others require little to none (Such as abstract)
It varies from person to person

How are you guys distinguishing opinions from facts?
Opinion is a personal thing. (I think Itachi is gay for example)
Facts have evidential or logical support. (There is no evidence to support Itachi being gay)

How are you guys debating against a fanboy/girl or/and the opposite side? (Anti-insertrandomcharacter.)

Slowly and you just keep hammering away.

[X-Drake]

It's occasionally you.
I think it's Drake more than you.
You focus on the debate though as well, which I think is why you only occasionally push the envelope too far now.

Of course....I have no time to join back into the serious debates any more.

So I push the boundaries but I know my place..I don't go over the line but I go close.

But I shall stop for a while.

[Fossil4182]

I feel somewhat comfortable answering this after browsing and posting in the domes for a bit. Characteristics I've seen of a "True" debater are as follows:

Uses logic to support their positions. More importantly, cites specific examples when available.

Supports their positions by laying ground work in their arguments.

Starts the occasional thread that sees some moderate to heavy discussion.

Is able to argue effectively in more than a single sub thread. Specifically not as always sticking to the Manga or Mixed or Misc etc...

Has their own style and persona when arguing.

Has the respect of the other members in the dome.


**A true TN debater does not have to always forward the winning argument (though that does help on occasion). I don't think being right all the time is a prerequisite for a TN debater because no one that I've ever seen on these forums has been 100% right 100% of the time.

[MinatoNamikaze]

You wanna know what the perfect debator is? Well they dont exist. It is basically a combination of all the stregnths of the top debators on TN.

They posses these qualities:

1) Unbiased
2) Willing to Concede
3) Back up all their points with proof
4) Able to listen to rational and logic and not stick to "well we havent seen naruto make 1001 shadow clones therefor he cant"
5) WILLING TO GO AGAINST WHAT EVERYONE IS ARGUEING AND BE CONTROVERSIAL IF THEY HAVE A VALID POINT
6) Knows the Manga inside and out
7) Has no favorite character
8) Is very polite, yet can hit your points and your moral as hard as someone like DIY adn Majin do.

Basically the perfect person.

BTW, they dont exist

[WhiteFang]

I'm too lazy to quote the first post, but I get the general drift of what you're asking, Kinky, and I'll try to answer the best to my comprehension.

And debater and the debating style they bring with them can vary from one crushing link which breaks the spine of the oppositions argument or a lengthy essay which wears down the opposition.

However, there are some general characteristics which constitute a good debater, whatever be their individual style, these include:

1. Following rules. Being mature, polite and not insulting others. Basically, setting an example of not only a good debater but a good member too.

2. Using rationale and logic.

3. Not over-theorizing your argument. Imagining a vague hypothetical scenario is one thing, writing the fight another. The latter should clearly be avoided at all costs.

4. Try not getting into to specific details or scenarios. Be general. Be a little realistic. (lol) For example- it's perfectly plausible that in a battle like Konoha Vs Akatsuki, some stalwarts like Jiraiya or Itachi may fall to a simple kunai.

5. Don't follow linear logic. Always debate skill-sets, not A>B>C. Granted it maybe applicable in certain scenarios, but they are very rare.

6. Be unbiased. No fan fanaticism.

7. Manga > Everything. Simple. Keep good knowledge of it. Don't make up your own list of facts, refer to what's written.

8. Concede when you're wrong. It doesn't take away anything from you. It's a quality very few have, actually.

9. Try and stick to the basis of the argument. Don't wander into pointless side discussions without even considering the main topic at hand. That is, don't digress too much to irrelevant details.

10. Keep your head cool. In the end it's just a day at the internet and we're debating fiction. We are all entitled to our views, howsoever crazy they may be. No need to get stressed over it.

Most important:

True debaters don't debate to "win". That's the purpose of a superficial, shallow individual out there to, ya know, to prove some sort of frivolous superiority. The true purpose of debating is to derive a plausible conclusion.

This is generally made possible, because, mostly, every good debate has two hard-core sides. In all likelihood, both of them aren't completely right, and the answer lies somewhere in between. Many a times they are too stubborn to agree, but somewhere deep down, the exchange of ideas, arguments and counter-arguments and creative inputs, in the end, leads to a lot of development for both parties in general.

Well, that's my take on the issue.

[Fossil4182]

I'm writing this here because I don't know where else to write it. This is not targeted at a specific person, but rather its meant as both an observation and a critique of some of the language used in the Dome. It is also somewhat topical in that it goes along with what, imo, makes someone a ture TN debater.

I writing this as a response to the growing number of times I see the word "rape" used in the forms to describe the outcome of some of the battles. Specific instances would be when people say "X fighter would rape Y fighter" etc. The use of that word is deplorable and in my opinion should not be used to describe the outcome of battles. Rape, by definition, is one person forcing another to commit to a sexual act against their will. It is one of the most damaging, dehumanizing and horrific acts one human can commit to another. Attempting to pass it off as a verb describing the outcome of a fight does nothing but desensitize the actual meaning of the word and trivialize the tragedies that some people have endured.

Rape, in the sociological sense, is something that describes not only the traditional thought of rape (man to woman), but also women to men, men to men and women to women. It is also the highest unreported crime in the US making its impacts largely under recorded. Its impacts can last years or even lifetimes depending on the severity of the incident. In most cases, people never get over it, they simply learn to live with it. It also is related to horrible industries like the sex trade and illegal pornographic rings. This act destroys people's lives.

This attempt to bombard with the analysis of what is rape is meant to illustrate it contrast it to how its been used in the Dome. Beating someone in battle is not "raping" them. It never has been, never will, nor should it ever describe the out come of a battle both in the grammatical and the ethical sense.

I'm writing this in the True TN debater thread for a few reasons.

-Reading over the aforementioned comments, logic was one of, if not the most cited characteristic listed. To that end, I would charge everyone to be mindful of the language used and realize the gravity or potential impacts that language used. Several individuals who may have wanted to participate in these forums may have decided not to because the feel the environment to be hostile because of the language used.

-Evaluating one's language also causes one to seek out different words to use. This results in two positive outcomes. The first is the avoidance of hostile or inappropriate language. The second is a better vocabulary. The decrease in hostility can lead to more potential members which means more ideas and discussion. The better vocabulary means having more words with which to describe your thoughts and feelings leading to a better understanding of your ideas between you and the rest of the community.

I am not writing this to call anyone out, hence why I didn't cite any specific person or quote. I don't think anyone that has done this is a bad or unethical person, I simply think there are better word choices that could have been made. This is not a frequent problem, but I've seen the use of the word enough times to motivate me to write this. I am perfectly okay with people being argumentative and calling people out when they forward poorly constructed arguments. Competition and spirited debate serve to further the development of arguing & critical thinking skills. However, poor word choice leads to the opposite of that which is the degrading of those skills and the overall weakening of the arguments being forwarded and the reputation of the site.

The solution is a simple one: please be more mindful of the word choices used when writing in the forums.

[WhiteFang]

^ *claps* I think this was very much needed. Thanks for mentioning it. I for one, too feel that the word is deplorable and shouldn't be used. You've jotted down the points so well that there's nothing else I can add. Good work.

[Kankurotto]

About the "r" word, I agree.

Of course I already know we shouldn't take it literally but yeah, I find it quite unnecessary.

There are probably better ways to describe how a character would dominate the other anyway.

[Samag0n.^^]

Simply..

It's me. ^^