TN's Debaters - Your Opinion

[Jαckums]

Just thought I'd make a thread for you to rank the debaters here on TN, discuss what people could improve, why you think certain people are superior debaters and all that shiz. So pretty much just make a list of all of TN's current active debaters and rank them according to who you think is best debater overall. Try include everyone, even if you haven't personally debated with them. And try to remain friendly and all - no flaming etc etc etc.

Format:

1. Roger - (why you chose them, what makes them good, improvements? etc.)
2. George - (why you chose them, what makes them good, improvements? etc.)
3. That guy - (why you chose them, what makes them good, improvements? etc.)
4. Harry Potter - (why you chose them, what makes them good, improvements? etc.)
5. n00b - (why you chose them, what makes them good, improvements? etc.)
6. Mr Cool - (why you chose them, what makes them good, improvements? etc.)

(Anything additional you want to add)

Obviously your list will include more than 6 people, but you get the jist of it.
& you don't have to use that format or w/e, it was just an example. ONE, TWO, THREE, GO!

[Kankurotto]

Let's do this.

*. WhiteFang.

+The most notable debater on TN so far, according to my opinion.
+Even when she's daily facing & cracking her opponents, she's still humble towards them. A huge plus.
+No flaws according to what I've read, as I don't agree with the "walls of text"-issue here.


*. "Battledome Majin".

+Aggressive.
-Somewhat hot-headed.
+Informative.
+/-Tend to get unnecessarily technical time to time.
+Referring to movies/quotes/literature/actors/etc to put forth a specific/certain point.
-There are times it feels like he's jumping to conclusions regarding a certain post(s) without analyzing it/them or the debaters/opponents intentions first.

*. 0ba.

+Usually very calm and levelheaded. (in a very scary way. Just like Adam. xD)
+Amazingly enough able to question his opponents views before coming to a conclusion.
+He's occasionally using smileys to express his points in various debates. Usually ":confused:" which is rather lovable. In other words, it's easier for the readers to analyze his mood within a debate and read his posts than most debaters here in TN. =3

-------

Mere opinions from an outsider, embrace them or trash them. :lol: I think I'll do the others later.

[0ba]

*. 0ba.

+Usually very calm and levelheaded. (in a very scary way. Just like Adam. xD)
+Amazingly enough able to question his opponents views before coming to an conclusion.

-------

Mere opinions, embrace them or trash them. :lol: I think I'll do the others later.:hug:

Thanks!

But I refuse to be picked ahead of the likes of Adam or DIY.

No wait.

I > dem. xD

And btw, that +/- applies to Fang too. I think it applies to her more than Matt. But it's more of a positive though. Fang gives us physics AND biology lessons on TN. :xd:

[WhiteFang]

'Kay boys, my turn. =]

(in no particular order because I don't think I can "rank" debaters)

* D.I.Y Death

+ is concise, to the point and has well rounded posts.
+ doesn't hesitate to speak his mind.
+ is reasonable and logical.

- can get a little too aggressive.
- often resorts to sarcastic and/or subtle insults. (though I must admit, they add spice to so many things)

* Jackums

+ has elaborate, informative posts, thinks through his points.
+ has the extremely rare and wonderful quality of conceding some points sometimes. Very nice indeed.
+ keeps his head cool, doesn't enter into or resort to petty arguments and insults.

- can be a bit stubborn at times.

* 0ba

+ extremely impartial. Unbiased. His judgment is never clouded.
+ easy to negotiate with, making debates much more fruitful in terms of conclusions.
+ doesn't ride bandwagons, holds his own, even if alone. Doesn't complain.
+ is very civil. Has a sense of humor.

- does too much reverse questioning sometimes. Lol.
- worships Konohamaru. Yes, that is a -ve for me, nii-san. :p Kono phails. =P

[0ba]

+He's occasionally using smileys to express his points in various debates. Usually ":confused:" which is rather lovable. In other words, it's easier for the readers to analyze his mood within a debate and read his posts than most debaters here in TN. =3Thanks again! :hug:
Sometimes some people really confuse me. xD



* 0ba

+ extremely impartial. Unbiased. His judgment is never clouded.
+ easy to negotiate with, making debates much more fruitful in terms of conclusions.
+ doesn't ride bandwagons, holds his own, even if alone. Doesn't complain.
+ is very civil. Has a sense of humor.

- does too much reverse questioning sometimes. Lol.
- worships Konohamaru. Yes, that is a -ve for me, nii-san. :p Kono phails. =PI try to be unbiased. Looks like I'm going a good job. iPwn. xD
I do like negotiating. I don't like debates that go on forever. Especially if I feel the person I'm debating with is being unreasonable. xD
I try not to complain, and I try to keep it as friendly as possible now. And my humor? I'm glad I don't make only myself laugh. :lol:

And the reverse questioning? I noticed it. And started turning them into statements instead of questions recently. Perhaps I still do it. Maybe it's just part of me. xD

And how DARE you insult Konohama-sama???!!!

TAKE IT BACK NOW! >:[

[Dr. Lecter]

No one ever puts me on these lists...
*sad face*

[Pokeaotics]

Haha me either.... Maybe someone should make a TN's Worst Debaters and we'd get on it?!? :xd:

[MinatoNamikaze]

Hmm only have time for one atm, and im gonna have to say Vane is probably one of the best.

+ Logical
+ Mostly unbiased
+ Just in his moderating
+ Backs up Points
+ Very little "WTF did u say" posts necessary when debating him
+ Kind and respectful
+ Likes Minato ;)

- Im always debating him ;)

[Mattus]

Why? Because everyone else is fairly inactive now.

All-Time though...here we go

- Xinobi
- Vane
- NejiTaker
- Majin
- Smiley
- 0ba
- D.I.Y. Death
- Naruxhinaforever(Adam)
- Nikushimi
- WhiteFang
- MasterofDeath
- X-Drake
- MinatoNamikaze
- Summer.
- naruhina_sasusaku
- Muffin
- Jackums
- Boidkan/Sasuke Uchiha #1 Fan
- Nabuza
- Deadlocked

I'm sure I'm leaving out some people but for the most part this is my list of all time. For people like Fang, Drake, and Namikaze, the reason you are towards the bottom of the list isn't because I don't think you're good, the list is very close overall xD

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Whoot I'm #8...I'm #8 lol

I don't think I can actually rank the people here.
Some I fnd are better at debating some topics then other.
I mean Obviously Niku and smiley are probably at their debating finest with Itachi etc.

So for me it isn't a solid list but a very fluid one depending on the debate.

I will review two tho

hyugamaster
-Doesn't debate me enough for me to make a proper review of him

Jetkid
+Passionate
+Forceful
+Makes good arguments

-Perhaps a little hard headed

[Pokeaotics]

Well I'm really too biased to make a list like that.... :xd:
But really, the few people I've debated with I'm biased against. Minato Namikaze would definitely make the list though.

[Mattus]

Jetkid and Hyugamaster are two people I forgot thanks for reminding me.
Also you're number 8 on the list but from Me to MasterofDeath is basically number 4. 4-9 is just a giant tie xD

[X-Drake]

- ME
.
.
.
.
.

- Xinobi
- Smiley
- Vane
- Nikushimi
- 0ba
- D.I.Y. Death
- Majin
- Muffin
.
.
.
.
Everyone else

xD

[Smiley]

Abstract and Nikushimi are quite clearly on the top. The former for scientifical/philosophical debates, and the latter for anime/manga and Battledome related topics. I'd love to see them go against one another.

[Mattus]

Abstract was also very good, Abstract vs. Xinobi would've been truly epic :D
Abstract vs. Niku would've been...interesting.

[Raikage's left hand]

The Term "debator" seems overused on this board considering it's just arguing over who's more GAR but anyways:

God Tier:
Smiley
Nikushimi

Mortal Tier:
Vane
0ba

Doesn't Afraid Of Anything Tier:
Jackums
MinatoNamikaze

12 Year Old Tier:
Majin

Lol Why Even Bother Tier:
Whitefang
Naruxhinaforever

Troll Tier:
D.I.Y.

Yes, it is in order from highest to lowest. Anyone i missed is irrelevant.

[Mattus]

^^Let me take a stab in the dark here and by that I do mean in the dark because I can no longer see this kids post and frankly, why would I?
I'm guessing up at the top is the person she's continuously trying to rip of, my guess is Niku.
She probably recognizes Smiley and 0ba sometime towards the top.
My name is most likely mentioned in a way that she thinks would piss me off.
Then I'm thinking there's a highly underrated person, probably Ryan and Fang...
Oh and of course DIY is at the bottom in some insulting fashion simply because he's too good for her to even touch.

Someone wanna tell me if I'm right here?

[Jαckums]

lol. That is such a Muffin thing to do.
I'm not agreeing/disagreeing, but I enjoyed that post.

I'm glad I was mentioned semi-high. Doesn't happen often.

R-R-Rep for Muffinz0r.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

^^Let me take a stab in the dark here and by that I do mean in the dark because I can no longer see this kids post and frankly, why would I?
I'm guessing up at the top is the person she's continuously trying to rip of, my guess is Niku.
She probably recognizes Smiley and 0ba sometime towards the top.
My name is most likely mentioned in a way that she thinks would piss me off.
Then I'm thinking there's a highly underrated person, probably Ryan and Fang...
Oh and of course DIY is at the bottom in some insulting fashion simply because he's too good for her to even touch.

Someone wanna tell me if I'm right here?
:lmao::lmao::lmao:
yep all completely correct.

But you forgot she put me and Fang in a really low tier as well

[Jαckums]

First:
- Smiley
- Nikushimi
- Whitefang

Second:
- 0ba
- Muffin
- Vane
- Majin
- DIY

Third:
- NaruxHina_4_Ever
- MN
- X-Drake
- Jetkid

People listed under tiers aren't ordered, seeing as some were extremely close for me. Especially in the second tier. I also didn't list some people. Either because I don't think they're that great, or because I haven't seen them debate enough/at all.

[X-Drake]

But you forgot she put me and Fang in a really low tier as well

Who said you two ain't? :lmao:

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Who said you two ain't? :lmao:

obviously not muffin:xd:

[Mattus]

^^Smiley, Niku, fang, 0ba and Muffin > vane....INNNNNTERESTING opinion.

[Raikage's left hand]

^^Let me take a stab in the dark here and by that I do mean in the dark because I can no longer see this kids post and frankly, why would I?
I'm guessing up at the top is the person she's continuously trying to rip of, my guess is Niku.
She probably recognizes Smiley and 0ba sometime towards the top.
My name is most likely mentioned in a way that she thinks would piss me off.
Then I'm thinking there's a highly underrated person, probably Ryan and Fang...
Oh and of course DIY is at the bottom in some insulting fashion simply because he's too good for her to even touch.

Someone wanna tell me if I'm right here?

The butthurt i am detecting from this post is off the charts.

My Tiers were ordered in who i enjoyed discussing the most. Smiley and Niku are at the top because they bring forth well thought out arguments and don't come off as arrogant dicks about it. Probably should have put Niku in a tier below Smiley though something like an Itachi Tier.

People in mortal tier is because mortals make mistakes (Like trying to tell me a 125 pound chinese actor could possibly beat a 235 pound world heavy weight champion lulz).

Doesn't afraid of anything tier is because they doesn't afraid of anything.

12 year old tier because the people sound 12 and are butthurt 24/7 with super serial posts because immaturity on the internetterwebspace is silly.

Why bother tier is simply because trying to convince the people here that their interpretation could be wrong is just a waste of time.

Troll tier is reserved for people who do nothing but troll.

Muffins tier listing = Over 9000 tier.

[Jαckums]

^^Smiley, Niku, fang, 0ba and Muffin > vane....INNNNNTERESTING opinion.

This was targeted at me, right? Because that's how my list went..

Anyway. Like I said at the bottom of my post, people listed under the same tier are not ordered. Therefore, Vane could very well be at the top of the people listed under 'Second'.

As for Smiley, Niku and Fang; Yes, I do believe them > Vane.

It's my honest opinion, as we're meant to give.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Hmm ok heres my list

Vane / Niku
Smiley
Fang
Majin
Naru_Hina

Just the main ones

[Mattus]

I'm guessing she's trying to respond to me using stupid words such as what is...butthurt? Yeah that sounds like something she'd say. It's cute really.
Although for all I know she was responding to Jack or Drake. Either way, if her response was directed at me, someone kindly explain the ignore list to the kid and explain that I'm done fueling her childish games. Let her down easy though.

[WhiteFang]

I encourage everyone to refrain from making any provocative comments in this thread. We're here to express our opinion. Opinion. It means you're not supposed to ahead trying to prove each other right/wrong. Just let it be.

As for my own ratings, I mostly like all the BD frequenters on this forum, they are all very good debaters, with their own unique style and I respect them all for it. There are some who stand out for me:

(in no particular order)

0ba - the most logical and unbiased one out there. He's also easy-going, flexible and accommodating, making him a very good person to debate alongside/against. He also never resorts to any name-calling whatsoever and can always maintain his cool.

Adam - very difficult to beat, first of all. Very well versed with manga facts, and even otherwise, whatever topic he maybe debating. Has a tendency to wear you down, highly persistent. He too is very friendly and cool, making him one of TN's most seasoned debaters. I just love how Adam can sometimes totally wind up his opponents in their own words. xDD And you can never piss him off. v.v

Jack - Very impressive, can stand his ground against anyone. He makes clean & short points with manga links to support his claims, making him a very meticulous debater. Hardly ever digresses from the topic, which is a special feature of his which many debaters (including me) don't possess. And then offcourse he's brave. Doesn't afraid of anything. =P Jack's a gem, all in all. He should just visit the BD more often.
Oh, and on a personal level I like how he's so cool even in an anti-Sasuke kinda debate situation, he hardly ever lets any bias seep in, making it very fruitful and fun to debate with him.

majin - well what a guy. If his argument doesn't, his sarcasm will surely killbeat you. Matt's more of a Bookstore guy imo, he always does better there. He's also stubborn, in a nice kind of way. Matt's aggressive in a way which is unique to him, it's endearing (atleast to me 'cuz I've debated against him quite a lot and been on the receiving end) But I still feel that he needs polishing on his facts sometimes, and can be a little less rough. n00bs beware of the majin-monster. :lmao:

Ryan - another one of those seasoned veterans. He has class and is very detailed with his argument. Seldom loses his cool, and he too is very flexible and works nicely towards a conclusion in a debate. He's a keen observer and will get you immediately when you're wrong. I remember him as, undoubtedly, one of the best debaters from the legendary Itachi vs Jiraiya threads.
He's also very friendly, he's the first person I ever debated with on TN and it was loads of fun.

Kaze - First couple of words that come to mind when I think of him are: Braveheart Itachitard. Kaze's an easy debater, and doesn't necessarily get into extremely long, boring technical jargon like many of us; yet he makes his point (and loyalties =P) very clear. His stubbornness is often Matt level. :lol: He'll defend Itachi from now until the end of time. He too is friendly and fun to debate with.

Eric - This guy is one of my personal favorites. He blends the right amount of aggression and facts. He can deal with any kind of debater, may it be half-retard or seasoned veteran. His style is unique to him, and his insults, are well... unique too. Gosh I'm constantly thinking of Smiley's siggeh as I type. :lmao: Eric isn't stubborn, but you need to absolutely convince him if you're gonna make him budge (which is very difficult) He also prefers stuff short, which is a plus, but he too can get into those crazy 1000 word marathons.

Smiley - Quiet, logical and unassuming, he's one of the best here. He makes the nicest threads, imo. He also has that huge detailed, breakdown your opponent post thing going on for him. Sometimes I feel that his argument may get too much into theorisation and extrapolation, or a bit too keen a focus on things of minor importance. But he's awesome to debate with, given his extreme skill level and well worded and well thought out posts. He keeps insults to a minimum and has that calm indifferent aura. He can take the occasional jab at you though. xD

Niku - He isn't on often enough, but when he used to be... I commend this man for his capability to single-handedly stir up a storm. He was a very good debater with sound reasoning and logic and good use of manga facts. However, his fan-fanaticism seemed to often cloud his judgment, imo. Plus, he was a bit too crude sometimes, which is again an opinion of mine. Oh, and he just loved to write the fight when it involved Itachi. But then again he was very entertaining and lively, and a nice person to work off your steam on, lol. Niku is, offcousre, above all those.. Chuunin-levels out there. ;)

Stacy - She's not a BD/Bookstore regular as such, and doesn't debate too much. But trust me, she's beginning to take interest, and if she as much as decides to jump in on a major one, one fine day; she's gonna totally own ass. She's highly unbiased and highly logical and has loads of creativity, coupled with a friendly demeanor, but crisp meaningful posts capable of decimating the opposition in one blow.

Aniki - He's very new, and for me, he's very good. This guy's got logical and fantastic posts, untainted by any form of favoritism. He also elaborates very well, and accounts for various, general scenarios. He's also flexible and has a friendly air about him. His posts are a treat to read. He should become a BD regular, hell yeah.

Dreamer - He's just so cute, I must say. xDDD He too is unbiased and draws sane, logical conclusions after carefully considering all sides and situations in a particular scenario, instead of siding with a narrow dogmatic view of one side only. A very rare and wonderful trait indeed. Also friendly and cool to chit-chat with, he's a nice guy. A debater in the making with a lot of potential, if I may say so?

All these people I've mentioned are the ones I respect and appreciate as not only debaters but even members. I just can't put a numbering on them, because each is unique and skilled in their own respects. So, yeah. Love you all and keep the fueling the debate fire. :D

P.S. For those I didn't mention, it's probably because I don't consider them debaters due to sparse activity and/or have lost respect for them. Another reason might be that I've simply not debated them or read their debates.

[0ba]

I think of myself very highly as some of you know, I do think I'm THAT awesome. But I don't get why I'm placed so high on so many lists. :S



Oh, no, no, no, I'm not complaining. :D

Thanks! 8)

[D.I.Y Death]

I don't think anyone is outright better than others. We all have our debate styles HOWEVER I can make a basic tier list.

Pro

Matt (when he tries he's good)
Naruhinata (he always has his game on)
Vane (when he debates he's good, but he's more of a show lurking type)
Fang (a bit long winded but the read is usually worth it)

Good
Oba (logical but not very interesting to read)
Smiley (has gotten massively better over the last year)
X-Drake (same as smiley)
Jackums (rarely debates but he can packa punch when need be)
Niku (hit and miss. He's either so right it hurts or he's defending lost causes)

Bad

Muffin (consistently wrong, quality degrades over time, is exceptionally stubborn, makes spite threads, disregards basic logic when it doesn't fit her "master plan")

[Mattus]

^^I agree with a lot of what you said.

0ba the reason you're on everyone's list is because you're GOOD xD

I also agree with what Eric said about it being hard to rank the debaters here because of our different styles.

Fang
Adam
0ba
Smiley

Vane
Majin
DIY

Xinobi
Aniki

Drake
Niku
Muffin

Namikaze
Jackums
Dreamer

^^Organized by debating styles.

[Marley]

I haven't been on in a hell of a while and haven't debated as much this year.

Not surprised im not on the listv.v

[Mattus]

^^I forget about you sorry xD I would put you in the Ryan/Majin/DIY category, or Niku/Drake/Muffin iddk...one of those two.

[NejiTaker]

^^Let me take a stab in the dark here and by that I do mean in the dark because I can no longer see this kids post and frankly, why would I?
I'm guessing up at the top is the person she's continuously trying to rip of, my guess is Niku.
She probably recognizes Smiley and 0ba sometime towards the top.
My name is most likely mentioned in a way that she thinks would piss me off.
Then I'm thinking there's a highly underrated person, probably Ryan and Fang...
Oh and of course DIY is at the bottom in some insulting fashion simply because he's too good for her to even touch.

Someone wanna tell me if I'm right here?

She actually put vane pretty high, lol. Just started reading this thread, glad to see that maginsharingan remembers the epic Global Central threads we've been in. :D

[sproxy]

Well I havnt posted in here yet cus its hard for me to rate people. Theres so many people who are good that I dont even know how to tier people.

But basically everyone who deserves recognition in my opinion is

(NOT IN ORDER)
Fang
Adam
0ba
Smiley
Majin
DIY
Aniki
Drake
Niku
Muffin
Namikaze
Jackums
And I'll throw in TOTCD since he wasnt so bad. Sometimes provided links to irrelevant things lol but other than that he did pretty good.

I personally believe each of these people should be recognized as they are all good and sensible. Everyone else I havnt mentioned are those that I either havnt debated with them or havnt seen them debate or dont rate them very highly. I might have forgot one and if I did sorry but off the top of my head these are those that deserve recognition x3

[Mattus]

She actually put vane pretty high, lol. Just started reading this thread, glad to see that maginsharingan remembers the epic Global Central threads we've been in. :D

Ah oh well xD
That's right! You just reminded me xD
I forgot Venus >_<

[Jαckums]

Ooh, I seem pretty low on most lists.

Inferior debating or lack of posting?

[D.I.Y Death]

Ooh, I seem pretty low on most lists.

Inferior debating or lack of posting?

Lack of posting. You're good when you apply yourself but you're never there to apply yourself :p

[Jαckums]

^Haha. Oh, well that's good. As long as I don't suck.

Although, I have been posting a lot more recently, the BD just seems a little frozen, not much going on. But, I do take a while to reply sometimes, because of school/other things.

Either way, I am trying to get more active. The BD is my favourite section after the RPG. *nod*

[sHaoLin_ruGby]

^ i saw this thread and have since been trying to find debates to get into ! LOL

need some street cred

[Mattus]

^^I forgot about you too >_<


Ooh, I seem pretty low on most lists.

Inferior debating or lack of posting?

Definitely lack of posting.
And also most lists are not judged in any order.

[Jαckums]

Definitely lack of posting.
And also most lists are not judged in any order.

Well that's a huge relief.

I knew I wasn't anywhere near Top 6 best debaters on TN, but I didn't think I was bad enough to be bottom list.
Yeah, I'm really trying to get more active in the BD. It's just lack of activity and school making it hard.

EDIT: Just noticed I spelled 'Debaters' with an 'o' in the title.. Wtf. Can a mod edit, please?

[X-Drake]

Ooh, I seem pretty low on most lists.

Inferior debating or lack of posting?

Unfortunately the Former duude :susp:

[Jαckums]

Re-done list after getting more active in the Bookstore/BD.

First:
- Smiley
- Nikushimi
- Whitefang

Second:
- 0ba
- Muffin
- Majin
- DIY
- Dreamer

Third:
- NaruxHina_4_Ever
- Vane
- MN
- X-Drake

Once again, people in each tier aren't listed, although the tiers themselves are.

[Smiley]

Not trying to sound modest here (honestly), but you are giving me way too much credit.

What did I ever do to be at the top of the list?

[Jαckums]

- Almost every debate I've seen you in, you've basically been correct from my perspective.
- When you've got something wrong, on the rare occasion, you've admitted it/conceded your point.
- Your debating style is generally what I'd call the overall 'perfect' style.
- You don't reply with unnecessary comments.
- You come across as very unbiased.
- I've never seen you get angry or flame the opposition.
- Overall, you have a very neutral, unbiased, calm style of debating.
- You use manga/databook evidence instead of trying to argue via assumptions.
- You're to the point and don't drag out pointless arguments.

Honestly, you, along with Fang and Niku are TN's best imo. Each for different reasons. Some of TN's debaters are extremely hyped, when their way of debating is of very low quality.

Either way, that's basically why.

[X-Drake]

Not trying to sound modest here (honestly), but you are giving me way too much credit.

What did I ever do to be at the top of the list?
lol Why am I on anyone's list. I don't do debating..I just give my view and leave, I hardly back my opinion and I quit in the middle of things...And I'm always to lazy to find the parts of the manga that back me up. And my posts are short.

You stick to your view and back it.

[Dreamer]

Just stumbled upon this thread today.

Thanks to everyone who mentioned me :)

I'm not really that active in the BD (but am getting into it) I do most of my work in the bookstore.

With that said, there are a lot of good active debaters and here is a list of those that stand out for me.

NxH (Adam): We don't always agree on things, but he's great with words and presents logical arguments with manga support. Another thing about him is he can debate forever, no joke lol. His passive/aggressive style allows him to get his point across w/o coming off as being rude or disrespectful.

Jack: Awesome debater. He has more of a wild style, yet balances it out with a steady dose of manga evidence. At times he can be a bit biased, but that is what makes him unique imo. He has the ability to use sarcastic humor AND at the same time get the point across (a lot of people can't do this). A debate with him is enjoyable instead of grinding.

Fang: She is one of my personal favorites. Whenever a debate gets heated between a couple of posters, I see Fang post a gem analyzing the argument in a unbiased and logical way. Another thing about her debates is the clarity of her message. Her posts are decisive and to the point and rarely does she stray away from it. And for some odd reason I usually agree with mostly everything she posts. I guess I like the way she thinks XD

Majin (Matt): Attack, Attack, and Attack. If you're debating with Matt you have to be on top of your game and sure of what you're talking about. He will look to expose even the slightest weakness in your argument. Very good debater.

MinatoNamikaze: The thing I like about him is that he thinks outside the box. Not the most technical debater, but imo one of the more creative debaters. He sometimes is a bit bias and finds a way to sneak Itachi into every thread lol, but it dosen't take away from his overall argument.

Vane: Haven't really debated with him personally, but from reading his posts he is a very meticulous debater who examines the argument first and responds logically. The thing about him that I like is his smooth delivery. His responses just seem to flow.

Those are the few that I can say outta the top of my head. Like I said, I know there's a lot of debating going on in the BD and I might have left off a few names deserving mention due to my lack of activity in that section, my apologies.

[MinatoNamikaze]

MinatoNamikaze: The thing I like about him is that he thinks outside the box. Not the most technical debater, but imo one of the more creative debaters. He sometimes is a bit bias and finds a way to sneak Itachi into every thread lol, but it dosen't take away from his overall argument.

Haha thats soo true now that i think about it ;)

[sproxy]

I mentioned people who deserve recognition, but I'll go ahead and try and make comments on each debater.

(NONE OF THESE ARE IN ORDER)

Fang- She's a great debater. From my experience of debating with her and seeing her debates with other people she always comes with her A game. She never misses anything and is able to word her posts with great precision. She's kind of like me in the sense that she explains things out and I think thats a great quality to have as to avoid confusion and so that later people cant try and twist things saying you said something different lol. But overall she is one of the best in the BD.

Adam- Pretty much a lot of what I said above about Fang. He's always calm and collected when making a post and has a keen view on how to break posts down. He never lets comments get to him and just overlooks them. Another person that is pretty much one of the best debaters on the forum.

0ba- He's a good debater. He too has a good logic. At times when Ive debated with him though we've ended up straying off with our discussions lol. But we always got back on track when we got to the bottom of what we were talking about and meant. Sadly he hasnt been as active though lately.

Smiley- Doesnt post as much as he use to but still brings plenty of logic when posting. He gets straight to the point with his posts and makes himself heard. He's just one of those people that always has something to back up his claims and has a way of logically pointing it out.

Majin- A great debater when he tries. He doesnt post much anymore in the BD but does on occasion. He has an "in your face" approach to things which at times seems a little much but at other times completely wipes someone out and makes them look foolish for even trying to debate lol. Back when I first joined he was like the only person I found myself debating with everyday I got on TN. Another thing that is good about Majin is that he can always dig around the corner and bring something new to the table in a debate. If it hasnt been discussed before he'll bring it up and you'll discuss it lol.

DIY- Another great debater that always has something to bring to the table. He has some of that "in your face" approach that Majin has but just a little less. He has a way of posting that you have to read between the lines which in some cases completely throws someone off and gives him the edge which in turn helps him pick apart the debate in his favor.

Aniki- A newer person to the BD but that doesnt take away from his firepower. He's a very calm debater who makes sure his point is made and in a very logical way. He never makes absurd claims and always has something to back his claims whether is be the manga, the databook, or even just common sense. Just all around a great debater.

Drake- He doesnt post much anymore but he always brings the comedy along with logic. He usually always has good humor in his debates but he never over does it with the humor and for the most part is serious.

Niku- What can I say lol. Pretty much just king of Itachi lol. Never backs down from an Itachi debate. And sadly enough no matter the odds stacked against Itachi he has ways to pretty much always make Itachi> All lol. At times it can get annoying but at other times you have to suck up your side of the debate because he is right. And his Itachi humor is always an added plus.

Muffin/RLH- You'll still be Muffin to me lol. But Muffin/RLH has went through 2 phases. One of which was (Muffin) calmer and more serious and always has something to back her up. Always very accurate when making posts. Then came RLH when she brought more comedy to her posts. Didnt take away from her impact though. In fact she makes more of an impact with the same accurate posts with a twist of humor. Her Raikage jokes always make me laugh lol. But she still carries plenty of logic and the ability to make people read between the lines lol.

Namikaze- Another great debater to come to the BD. At times his Itachi claims seem a little much but he always has something if even an assumption to help prove him right. He never backs down and always has people second guessing themselves in all debates. Sure he loves Itachi but he doesnt let that take over as much as you might think because in most cases he is right when it comes to Itachi.

Jackums- He's a good debater. He has his times when his claims seem a little out there but he always has something to help back them. Another debater that doesnt back down and does what it takes to get his point across.

Dreamer- Another great debater. He never jumps to far out there. Always stays safely in his life preserver when jumping off the boat into the water. Lol basically he never jumps out in the middle with nothing at all to help his points. Very calm and collected. I think with a little more time in the BD he'll be at the top.

Anyways thats just my opinion. I think everyone is great in their own way.

[D.I.Y Death]

Dreamer as one of the best? I mean, sure everyone has their style but generally speaking you're not the best when you use mostly theories to support your claims instead of canon fact. Sorry if that's harsh but the truth hurts.

[Dreamer]

Dreamer as one of the best? I mean, sure everyone has their style but generally speaking you're not the best when you use mostly theories to support your claims instead of canon fact. Sorry if that's harsh but the truth hurts.

Resentment due to your destruction? http://www.talknaruto.com/naruto/showthread.php?18238-Nightmare-Luffy-vs-H2-Ichigo (http://www.talknaruto.com/showthread.php?18238-Nightmare-Luffy-vs-H2-Ichigo)

Damn. Never thought you were that much of a sore loser.

Oh well, no hard feelings on this side :)

[Jαckums]

First:
- Nikushimi
- RLH
- Smiley
- Whitefang

Second:
- 0ba
- Majin
- Vane
- DIY
- Dreamer

Third:
- NaruxHina_4_Ever
- MN
- X-Drake

Just changed a few.

[Mattus]

^^Muffin in top tier? Are we talking about the same person? Same thing goes for her as Dreamer, she's good but one of the best here? I'm sorry but you're active so your basis baffles me.

[Jαckums]

^^Muffin in top tier? Are we talking about the same person? Same thing goes for her as Dreamer, she's good but one of the best here? I'm sorry but you're active so your basis baffles me.

She's generally as correct as both Fang and Smiley, who I place in the top tier also.
You obviously disagree with her on many occasions, which I believe influences your opinion on her debating.

As for Dreamer; What? He's in the second group. Are you saying he should be higher or lower?

[Mattus]

No I was referring to what Eric said earlier and I don't agree with Niku ever but I agree he is top tier. I never agree with Smiley either.
Correctness =/= Good debater. I'm proof of that, I'm occasionally intentionally wrong just because otherwise there is no debate.
She is correct as often as Adam is who you put in third tier.

[Jαckums]

No I was referring to what Eric said earlier

Oh, okay. It was in the same post as you made to me, so I assumed it was directed at me too. My bad.


and I don't agree with Niku ever but I agree he is top tier. I never agree with Smiley either.
Correctness =/= Good debater. I'm proof of that, I'm occasionally intentionally wrong just because otherwise there is no debate.

It makes up a big part of it. If someone is incorrect (unintentionally) 75% of the time, they're not going to be considered a good debater. You can't strongly back your debates if you're wrong. Therefore you have no argument. Meaning, evidently, correctness plays a part in what makes a good debater.


She is correct as often as Adam is who you put in third tier.

I disagree strongly. In my opinion, Adam questions far too much in debates, rather than pushing his ideas and supplying proof. I'm not going to elaborate on that, but as I said, I disagree.

[D.I.Y Death]

Resentment due to your destruction? http://www.talknaruto.com/naruto/showthread.php?18238-Nightmare-Luffy-vs-H2-Ichigo (http://www.talknaruto.com/showthread.php?18238-Nightmare-Luffy-vs-H2-Ichigo)

Damn. Never thought you were that much of a sore loser.

Oh well, no hard feelings on this side :)

If you really want to get technical you've been ignoring proof for a while with multiple people, if it was just me having this issue then maybe I'm crazy and you're actually good but even Vane has had some nasty arguments with you that resulted in you not supplying proof. Regardless if that was your intent or not its detrimental to your debating skills since you can't debate with someone who ignores what is presented before them.

That is my reasoning on why you're not even close to top tier in terms of debating, nothing less and certainly nothing more but nice assumptions there, you certainly like making those, don't you?

[Mattus]

It makes up a big part of it. If someone is incorrect (unintentionally) 75% of the time, they're not going to be considered a good debater. You can't strongly back your debates if you're wrong. Therefore you have no argument. Meaning, evidently, correctness plays a part in what makes a good debater.

It plays a part yes, but who is the better debater? One that is always right or what that can prove he is right even if he's wrong?



I disagree strongly. In my opinion, Adam questions far too much in debates, rather than pushing his ideas and supplying proof. I'm not going to elaborate on that, but as I said, I disagree.

Fair enough :p

[Nyanki]

It plays a part yes, but who is the better debater? One that is always right or what that can prove he is right even if he's wrong? I agree with Matt here.

I have always admired the one who plays devil's advocate. They may not feel the side they're debating for is the correct side, but they're tripping up their opposition, finding holes and weaknesses in what a majority may simply take as right without much thought. In the end, debating isn't about being right and wrong, but what you do to make your side out to be. I think sometimes, people get too caught up crusading for what's right to them instead of just enjoying playing the game.

Although, hey, fighting for the side you believe is right isn't a bad thing. I just find it cool how some can pick up whatever side and still do a good job.

[D.I.Y Death]

I agree with Matt here.

I have always admired the one who plays devil's advocate. They may not feel the side they're debating for is the correct side, but they're tripping up their opposition, finding holes and weaknesses in what a majority may simply take as right without much thought. In the end, debating isn't about being right and wrong, but what you do to make your side out to be. I think sometimes, people get too caught up crusading for what's right to them instead of just enjoying playing the game.

Although, hey, fighting for the side you believe is right isn't a bad thing. I just find it cool how some can pick up whatever side and still do a good job.

Exactly, sometimes its good to argue for a side who clearly won't win just to present proof they hadn't considered before but in the end it's just a game and we should all enjoy it.

[Dreamer]

If you really want to get technical you've been ignoring proof for a while with multiple people, if it was just me having this issue then maybe I'm crazy and you're actually good but even Vane has had some nasty arguments with you that resulted in you not supplying proof. Regardless if that was your intent or not its detrimental to your debating skills since you can't debate with someone who ignores what is presented before them.


When was this?


Regardless if that was your intent or not its detrimental to your debating skills since you can't debate with someone who ignores what is presented before them.
I answered everything you came up with. Your just lashing out.

Stop, your embarrassing yourself

[X-Drake]

I mentioned people who deserve recognition, but I'll go ahead and try and make comments on each debater.
Yup, true statement is true since I'm recognised xD joking I'm not that cocky :p


Drake- He doesnt post much anymore but he always brings the comedy along with logic. He usually always has good humor in his debates but he never over does it with the humor and for the most part is serious.

Love you to man (no homo) lmaooo

Yh, Well I got my final exams...they end before July so If I'll be posting more...

I gave my list. I think

Smiley, Niku, Majin, Jackums, Vane, Dreamer, 0ba, DIY, abstract, minato namikaze, naruhina...Are some of the debaters who stood out to me...Even if they are plain wrong and irritating cause I know I am right..Their logic and debating skills makes it seem like they have a point..Then I just shut them up xD

[Mattus]

You're aware Niku, Eric, and I never shut up right? xDD

[X-Drake]

Well I bet your shut up now..When I was saying Nagato controls pain and then it came true..I bet you feel stupid for arguing with the majestic Drake..Say something Biatch lmaooo xD

[Mattus]

Ahh you're gonna keep bringing that up aren't ya? xDD

[X-Drake]

Nope...This is the first time...the last time I was just showing to remembering good times. haha So you should know I am always right..Even If I'm wrong I'm still right as I had a chance of being right. Even doe I'm never wrong anyways xD

[Jαckums]

@Matt/Stacy/Eric: I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't claiming being correct is all that makes a good debater, but it has an impact. If you're so entirely wrong that you can't prove your side correct even with such skill, that's it. Generally someone who is correct most of the time is going to win. It's rare that someone has the skill to win a debate by proving the incorrect side correct.

Either way, I agree with the comments made. RLH still remains top tier for me too.

[sproxy]

It plays a part yes, but who is the better debater? One that is always right or what that can prove he is right even if he's wrong?
This is a good point. Also its a good point because in situations like the BD no one really knows who would really win in a fight. Because its not up to us we just debate on what we know and see all based on opinions so technically even if you think your wrong you may be right lol. Funny how that works.


I agree with Matt here.

I have always admired the one who plays devil's advocate. They may not feel the side they're debating for is the correct side, but they're tripping up their opposition, finding holes and weaknesses in what a majority may simply take as right without much thought. In the end, debating isn't about being right and wrong, but what you do to make your side out to be. I think sometimes, people get too caught up crusading for what's right to them instead of just enjoying playing the game.

Although, hey, fighting for the side you believe is right isn't a bad thing. I just find it cool how some can pick up whatever side and still do a good job.
I agree. Sometimes it makes things interesting because like Matt said if not some debates wouldnt have went to where they did.


@Matt/Stacy/Eric: I think you misunderstood what I said. I wasn't claiming being correct is all that makes a good debater, but it has an impact. If you're so entirely wrong that you can't prove your side correct even with such skill, that's it. Generally someone who is correct most of the time is going to win. It's rare that someone has the skill to win a debate by proving the incorrect side correct.

Either way, I agree with the comments made. RLH still remains top tier for me too.
But thats another thing technically we have no real way of saying who wins and who doesnt. All we do is bring our points up and debate them based on our opinions. So in cases like these there is no true winner or loser unless Kishi just up and decided to do something pretty cool and that would be to do a weekly manga or anime where he puts random characters against each other and we see how things play out xD

Not aimed at you anymore Jack-
I think it would be pretty cool if Kishi did that though, like branch out with a side manga or something when its all done and have a weekly battle between certain characters. Like seeing Itachi go all out against someone and Sarutobi in his prime lol would be pretty neat. But then again that would ruin the BD because then we wouldnt have things to debate about haha.

[Raikage's left hand]

It doesn't matter how well constructed your arguments are if you're just plain wrong. You can give me a three hundred page essay which would shake me to my core and make me question what it is to be alive, but two will always be greater than one.

[Mattus]

Your point being? Being a great debater is unrelated to being right or wrong. Two will always be greater than one but if I right a three hundred page essay on how it doesn't and makes you question all of that then I obviously am a damn good debater if I can make you question something that is quite obviously not to mention universally accepted fact.

[Nyanki]

@Matt/Stacy/Eric: I think you misunderstood what I said.To be honest, I wasn't talking to you, but commenting on what Matt said. After reading it, I agreed with his words. v.v Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

I would thoroughly enjoy though if people would step onto the opposite side more often. It would just make things a heck of a lot more interesting. :lol: Plus, it's a good experience for sharpening debating skills, not to mention fun.

[Jαckums]

Your point being? Being a great debater is unrelated to being right or wrong. Two will always be greater than one but if I right a three hundred page essay on how it doesn't and makes you question all of that then I obviously am a damn good debater if I can make you question something that is quite obviously not to mention universally accepted fact.

The point is, not everyone has that amount of skill. The only debater on TN that could do that was Niku.

So, for the rest of the debaters that can't do it successfully, they generally have to be correct and know how to word their arguments and keep their debating tactics up to scratch.


To be honest, I wasn't talking to you, but commenting on what Matt said. After reading it, I agreed with his words. v.v Sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

No, I just included your name because you'd joined the conversation and was agreeing on part of what Matt said. I assumed you weren't aiming it at me, but you were part of the discussion, so I added you.

[Mattus]

The point is, not everyone has that amount of skill. The only debater on TN that could do that was Niku.

So, for the rest of the debaters that can't do it successfully, they generally have to be correct and know how to word their arguments and keep their debating tactics up to scratch.

First of all do you not remember Jay? And also Adam, Ryan, and I can all debate well, you admitted this and coincidentally Adam is occasionally wrong, Ryan will forget things occasionally, and I'll be wrong for the hell of it sometimes.

[Jαckums]

First of all do you not remember Jay? And also Adam, Ryan, and I can all debate well, you admitted this and coincidentally Adam is occasionally wrong, Ryan will forget things occasionally, and I'll be wrong for the hell of it sometimes.

Jay, not really, no. I don't think I was active in the BD/Bookstore at the same time he was.

Adam is third tier for me, so no, I don't think he can. Ryan, he's good when he doesn't add the unnecessary comments, but he hasn't successfully convinced me something incorrect is correct, so that's a no too. Yourself; I haven't read many of your debates back when the sections were active, and recently, I haven't seen anything as such. Not saying you can't, because I haven't seen enough of you to say anyway.

Basically only those in the top tier have a real chance, imo. Of them, I've only ever seen Niku smash a debate so much that he convinced me his side was correct almost every time.

[Mattus]

He's never done that for me. I know he can but to me he barely misses it every time.
But Jay was one of those people who could imo.
Adam can because he has several times. Ryan too.
Namikaze can. Muffin can. Drake and I definitely can.
If you're a good debater and have a strong bias or just don't care, I promise you can.

[Jαckums]

He's never done that for me. I know he can but to me he barely misses it every time.
But Jay was one of those people who could imo.
Adam can because he has several times. Ryan too.
Namikaze can. Muffin can. Drake and I definitely can.
If you're a good debater and have a strong bias or just don't care, I promise you can.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.

[Dreamer]

I think a great debater is someone who can argue for either side. And if on the wrong side...has the the ability to leave doubt, not necessarily change, the opposing opinion.

[Raikage's left hand]

Your point being? Being a great debater is unrelated to being right or wrong. Two will always be greater than one but if I right a three hundred page essay on how it doesn't and makes you question all of that then I obviously am a damn good debater if I can make you question something that is quite obviously not to mention universally accepted fact.

The point is that all that effort you've put into your argument is simply a smokescreen to distract from the fact you've been proven wrong. You would've simply spent a whole length of time on something unrelated to the topic. Being a debator is about proving your side correct.

[Mattus]

It's about how you do it. But either way you just said I was correct. It's not about being correct, it's about PROVING you're correct.

[Raikage's left hand]

It's about how you do it. But either way you just said I was correct. It's not about being correct, it's about PROVING you're correct.

How were you correct in any way? You said that being a debator is unrelated to being right or wrong. That's simply not true. The fact is it's impossible to prove you're correct when you're just plain wrong.

[Mattus]

It's about proving your point, not being right or wrong. Are you a bad athlete if you don't win every game?

[Dreamer]

How were you correct in any way? You said that being a debator is unrelated to being right or wrong. That's simply not true. The fact is it's impossible to prove you're correct when you're just plain wrong.
I strongly disagree. The art of debating isn't based on being correct all the time. It's how effectively you build your argument by using supporting evidence and rationalization.

If your a good debater, most of the time your right. And if your "wrong" you make a damn good argument supporting your idea.


majinsharingan
It's about proving your point, not being right or wrong. Are you a bad athlete if you don't win every game?

Agreed.

[sproxy]

Ryan, he's good when he doesn't add the unnecessary comments, but he hasn't successfully convinced me something incorrect is correct, so that's a no too.

Basically only those in the top tier have a real chance, imo. Of them, I've only ever seen Niku smash a debate so much that he convinced me his side was correct almost every time.
For one the only reason your not convinced is because you ignore things on purpose. But Im not gonna get into that. What I find funny is that Im good when I dont make unnecessary comments but Niku is your hero? Niku never (rarely) made a post without unnecessary comments lol. I guess the truth really is that you have some bias http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm164/AkatsukixYeah/blinditachixk5.gif

But hey thats just my opinion and this thread is all about opinions haha

[Jαckums]

For one the only reason your not convinced is because you ignore things on purpose. But Im not gonna get into that. What I find funny is that Im good when I dont make unnecessary comments but Niku is your hero? Niku never (rarely) made a post without unnecessary comments lol. I guess the truth really is that you have some bias http://i296.photobucket.com/albums/mm164/AkatsukixYeah/blinditachixk5.gif

But hey thats just my opinion and this thread is all about opinions haha

I like how you take the first chance you get to jump at my posts and label me as various things. Your above post is an example of an unnecessary comment. Like hey, I never said anything bad about you, but for some reason you felt you were inclined to come here and call me biased.

Niku's comments weren't flamebating like yours. They're actually funny, too.
But hey, that's just my opinion. http://i43.tinypic.com/vxevyx.png

[Mattus]

I like how you take the first chance you get to jump at my posts and label me as various things. Your above post is an example of an unnecessary comment. Like hey, I never said anything bad about you, but for some reason you felt you were inclined to come here and call me biased.


First of all he labeled you nothing.
Second of all opinion or not you're clearly biased based on what you said. It's okay so is everyone else, but in a less obvious way.


Niku's comments weren't flamebating like yours. They're actually funny, too.



Gentlemen, I'm going to need a very big HA.

This will have to do...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3219/2281650654_7fa966abf0_o.jpg

[Jαckums]

First of all he labeled you nothing.
Second of all opinion or not you're clearly biased based on what you said. It's okay so is everyone else, but in a less obvious way.

Opinion and bias are not the same thing. Just because you disagree with what I said, it doesn't mean I'm biased. It means your opinion differs from mine.

It was my opinion that only Niku has the debating skill to make an incorrect argument look right. Where is the bias in that? Because I said I'd never seen Ryan do that? I also said no other members of TN could. Therefore he labeled me bias when I was clearly just giving my opinion.

Opnion (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion) =/= Bias (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/bias)


Gentlemen, I'm going to need a very big HA.

This will have to do...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3219/2281650654_7fa966abf0_o.jpg

How is going on about your massive cock flamebaiting?

[Mattus]

Opinion and bias are not the same thing. Just because you disagree with what I said, it doesn't mean I'm biased. It means your opinion differs from mine.

It was my opinion that only Niku has the debating skill to make an incorrect argument look right. Where is the bias in that? Because I said I'd never seen Ryan do that? I also said no other members of TN could. Therefore he labeled me bias when I was clearly just giving my opinion.

I was not referring to that and in all honesty just fueling the fire for you and Ryan xD



How is going on about your massive cock flamebaiting?

1. How is that not a completely unnecessary comment?
2. It's just plain annoying.
3. How is ignoring instances of flame-baiting and taking the discussion in another direction proof there was no flame-baiting?

[Jαckums]

1. How is that not a completely unnecessary comment?
2. It's just plain annoying.
3. How is ignoring instances of flame-baiting and taking the discussion in another direction proof there was no flame-baiting?

1. I never said they weren't unnecessary. You bolded the part where I said they weren't flamebaiting, then went on to post your 'LOL' picture in response. The comments are unnecessary, but not in the way that Ryan's are. His are straight up, obvious to anyone, flamebaiting. Niku's were just 'lol look i'm funneh'.
2. They never annoyed me, but yeah, I'd imagine other people would get annoyed by it.
3. I never took it in another direction. From what I'd read of Niku's debates, there was very minimal flamebaiting, if any. There were just a load of 'lul moments' in there.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Adam questions far too much in debates, rather than pushing his ideas and supplying proof. I'm not going to elaborate on that,
Please do Jackums
I have questioned you alot recently for some very obvious reasons
either
a/You have presented an incomplete theory and I wish you to actually expand upon it to cover the weaknesses rather then me constantly trying to prove your side simply so I can refute it (Such an example was the Sasuke+Kyuubi theory where you have yet to respond to my counter-examples)
or b/ because I have not been arguing for a side and merely that your side is wrong (I'm often taking a more neutral/middle view) without actually fully commiting to a contrary view (Such as the Ameratsu one we are currently one where I am merely opposing the odea that it is stronger initially with no real views for a contrary position)

I have found you to simply ignore the questions without realizing how they are simply counterarguments designed to get you to respond
An answer phrased as a question is merely an indication that I have found something that I believe you need to address and that I would appreciate an answer

[Mattus]

1. I never said they weren't unnecessary. You bolded the part where I said they weren't flamebaiting, then went on to post your 'LOL' picture in response. The comments are unnecessary, but not in the way that Ryan's are. His are straight up, obvious to anyone, flamebaiting. Niku's were just 'lol look i'm funneh'.

Ryan and Niku both straight-up flame baited as well as stealthily flame baited. Ryan fair better when he stealthily flame baits as do I because then not only are you successful in the flame-bait but you also have the right to bitch at the other person for starting the flame bait; if you do it right that is.

[LostLegend]

There is some debate going on in best debator thread :D

Right, using this thread, I see that:

NaruxHina: Often believe yourself to be right all the time (As with a lot of posts) but recommends how theory could be expanded upon.

Jackums: States arguments in points. Nice and clear. Unsure about holding ground though.

Majinsharingan: Uses a lot of rhetorical questions to make the other debator question themselves :D

Vane: Accepting and truthful. I think.

Dreamer: Fave debator I think. Often correct (I think? lol.) and I agree with a lot of his thoughts. Accepting.

[D.I.Y Death]

I like how you take the first chance you get to jump at my posts and label me as various things. Your above post is an example of an unnecessary comment. Like hey, I never said anything bad about you, but for some reason you felt you were inclined to come here and call me biased.

Niku's comments weren't flamebating like yours. They're actually funny, too.
But hey, that's just my opinion. http://i43.tinypic.com/vxevyx.png

lmao, Jack, Niku flamebaits non stop. There is no way you can argue that because EVERYONE knows it and it's the reason why everyone knows-and hates-Niku at NF.

[Raikage's left hand]

I think this adequately sums up all of TN's debators

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8998/siriusdishcushion.png

[X-Drake]

I think this adequately sums up all of TN's debators

http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/8998/siriusdishcushion.png

I guess that also includes you http://teamfly.co.uk/forums/images/ranks/CookieMonster.gif

[Raikage's left hand]

I guess that also includes you http://teamfly.co.uk/forums/images/ranks/CookieMonster.gif

It especially includes me http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo105/Jackk_15/TADA/TADA.gif

[X-Drake]

I knew you was fake trolling http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo105/Jackk_15/TADA/TADA.gif

[Raikage's left hand]

Please, i never troll. People just can't handle truth.

[X-Drake]

Please, i never troll. People just can't handle truth.

I know..I was joking... :p

[Raikage's left hand]

I know..I was joking... :p

So was i. I troll constantly http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo105/Jackk_15/TADA/TADA.gif

[D.I.Y Death]

Oh Muffin and your 4chan ways.

[Raikage's left hand]

Official updated TN members tier listings.

God Tier:
Smiley.

High tier:
Jackums
Nikushimi
Aniki

13 year old tier:

Majinsharingan

Cool guy tier:

X-drake.

Good, not great tier:
Whitefang
Dreamer
MinatoNamikaze

Lol did he die tier:
Vane
0ba

Oh shit nigger, what are you doing tier:
Naruxhina

Shit tier:

DIY

I'll explain the changes in tiers. God tier is for the unquestioned best which Smiley stands alone. High tier is for the those who could easily be God tier if it weren't for lack of activity. 13 year old tier is an upgrade from 12 year old tier because i enjoy rustling majin's jimmy's. Cool guy tier is for those who's posts are rather lulzy. Good tier is basically for those that present a good argument but usually lack a few things to complete their arguments IMO. Did he die Tier is self explanatory. Naruxhina seems to rely too much on theoretical things that are generally unsupported far too often. Shit tier is reserved for the lowest of the low.

All list are ordered in who i either enjoy discussing with or reading their posts, don't feel your high enough? Then prove me wrong and make me a bitch http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo105/Jackk_15/TADA/TADA.gif

[D.I.Y Death]

Mexican sewer, Muffin, Mexican sewer. I don't need to say more.

[Mattus]

Oh shit nigger, what are you doing tier:
Naruxhina


:lmao: Yay.

[Pokeaotics]

Jack, Seth, Matt, Ryan, Fang, Adam, and myself in no particular order. That's pretty much it I guess.
I don't consider Muffin a debater, she's full on troll these days. Used to be up there with Smiley and Niku, though, who (along with others) aren't included for their inactivity.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Oh shit nigger, what are you doing tier:
Naruxhina

Naruxhina seems to rely too much on theoretical things that are generally unsupported far too often.
Theoretical?

I didn't know I went into theoretical speculation much?

[Jαckums]

Well, my last 'tier list' was over a year ago, so here's the updated version.

TOP TIER
Raikage's left hand
WhiteFang

HIGH TIER
Dreamer
vane

MID TIER
NaruxHina_4_Ever
WithoutMercyorMeaning

Now for some comments on my rankings.

I ranked Ryan above Adam, despite voting for Adam in the recent member battle thread, I think solely because Ryan is correct more often. And he is quite knowledgeable when it comes to Naruto, it's just flaws (past stated) that make it difficult for me to put him above Adam comfortably.

As for Matt, he is quite 'down-to-earth' when it comes to Naruto, and I find myself agreeing with a lot of what he says, but I find he doesn't put much effort into debating. It's just more of a "awh yeah, might jump into this for fun" kind of mindset. There's nothing wrong with that, but since I don't often see any hard-out debating from him due to his lax attitude, I put him in one of the lower tiers of the list.

RLH and Fang, consistently great debaters, the best of the active debaters on TN, imo.

Dreamer's a good debater, so he's in the high tier for me, although he sometimes has phases of 'attitude' I've noticed. He's generally pretty chill, but in the last few months, I have seen him have 'moments' where his debating gets somewhat more aggressive. But still, he's mostly consistent.

Lastly, there are other members here that debate, but I only listed those who have a sort of unofficial title as a 'TN debater', due to a somewhat consistent activity in debate-oriented sections. Other members such as Seth would have been listed also if they were more active, but similarly to Seth's case, it just appears debating is a "when it's convenient" thing for them.

Of them all, I enjoy debating mostly with Fang. Debating with her is way more relaxed, and I find myself not utilizing my usual 'aggressive' debating style because it's more like a discussion with her. And since her style is so much more 'friendly', I don't have to argue so much as I just have to present my points. The few times I've debated with RLH have been good too, but considering RLH is pretty much correct consistently (imo) and therefore has my agreement with 90% of things, we haven't debated a whole lot. If anything, the trolling and antics make a debate with RLH pretty enjoyable. One of the only genuinely funny debaters on here, imo.

[Mattus]

^^I'd just like to say I completely agree with everything said in this post. Excellent post.

[WhiteFang]

Hmmm. Jack inspired me here. Now I'm not really into the tier stuff exactly... so let's see what I'm going to do here. *about to post on sheer instinct*

First of all, I've encountered various kinds of debaters at various places and in general I'd say that compared to the average our subset of debaters (even at its current diluted number) is very good. I mean in general I'd like to have a debate with anyone of our currently active people on a fine morning and not get my mood spoiled.

I think I'm going to use a points system for a bunch of categories (each worth ten points), which is why it will take me more time to rate people, so a few at a time.

Categories (more could be added later):

Articulation
Content
Personality
Style
Other


Before I start to rate, I reiterate what I said in the latest weekly battle: being a good debater has little to do with being right or wrong unless you're arguing cold hard fact in which there is no room for dispute; a good debater is one who can make a point, defend it well and look cool while doing it. Besides, imo, the greatest debaters are all about this:
The aim of argument, or of discussion, should not be victory, but progress.
Joseph Joubert

Finally, needless to say, I am basing this on my own personal experience with these debaters and not otherwise. :)
-----------

Here we go!

Adam

Articulation
Adam's articulation is good, but often not one of the best, given how things may become a bit convoluted and quite technical at times. Plus he may tend to skip out on, what maybe called as, required detail (not to be confused with over-detailing which too is not desirable mostly). Then there's the fact that he has a preference to stick to the vague, not taking a cut up and dry stand on things, which often time leads to back and forth on what maybe a redundant issue. Regardless of all this, he is coherent and consistent, and does get his point across most of the times. That plus the way he articulates allows him to skew contexts in his favor, allowing him to defend apparently "weak" points, whether correctly or incorrectly is in the air and a matter of perspective; but it works. And he knows his word usage, especially when it gets technical, something which few can do. Always a plus.
Overall, I'd give him a 6.5/10.

Content
Depending on the place of debate, Adam's content varies from good to best. Little out-does his factual knowledge and even otherwise knowledge in Global Central; though at places like the BD, he would prefer to exclusively stick to the manga even when say, some other canon source like the databook provides conclusive evidence, thereby leading to some confusion, and a dilution of his factual correctness by some standards. Apart from that, whereas a lot of his content is about questions and fallacies, he doesn't really fail on links, either. He does carry proof from those manga pages and isn't making theories in the air, though some extent of speculative suppositions does form part of his content.
All in all, an 8/10.

Personality
I don't think I really need to elaborate, but Adam defines what a level-headed, mature debater is like. He also sticks to the debate and fights tooth and nail to the end. He is never disrespectful to the opposition and always carries an aura of calm and cheap flaimbaiting and intimidation tactics don't figure as part of his debater persona. This, at the end of the day, speaks of class and the ability to take a debate for what it is: a debate. And then with me, personally, he very easily exemplifies that quote above.
10/10. Perfect from me, on this.

Style
Well... to be quite blunt, Adam's style is, for the most part, quite bland. He sticks to questions, points and counter points, goes the route of technicalities, does side-track and bring in subsidiary factors which are relatively of little importance to the situation at hand etc. However, it is effective and well-tested and if doesn't pass, well, it doesn't even fail. And tbch, it is the ultimate debating style for techy issues of Global Central which sometimes depend on technicalities, nit-picking and considering every factor big or small and connecting it and putting it out as a whole. But the Battledome? Not really. Bookstore? Maybe. So overall I'll go with a 6.5. (In a personal situation though, I'd probably go for a much higher score given how I inherently value GC over anything else.. and then I nearly always agree with Adam's stands on things - I just go about it very differently)

Other
Hmmm, I'ma fill this out in detail later (I may even put absolutely pointless things like a theme song :sinister:), but Adam is knowledgeable and astute and probably one of the smartest and most mature people on here, aside from issues of imaginary universes, maybe. But he is repetitive at times, I must say and a bit too technical at places.

So, the total score comes out to be: 31/40. The score would probably be a few points lower if it were BD-only and nearing perfect if it were GC-only.

Dreamer

Articulation
Dreams is someone who articulates well, but may some times use too many words to say quite less and other times his wording may not make him very clear to the other party about his stand. But he says what he's got to say and everyone gets it and whereas he isn't the kind to employ wordplay to make his argument look pretty and twist it in his favor, overall he does a decent job with the descriptiveness and justification which is coherent. 6.5/10.

Content
The accuracy of Dreamer's content is variable, ranging from factually 100% correct to sometimes just intuitively correct but otherwise incorrect when analyzed in actuality, the latter being applicable to Global Central mostly. His content does have a degree of flexibility, but he may, sometimes be susceptible to seeing only one part of things and maybe closed up to another, outside view. I could probably say this for a bunch of people, but for Dreamer it does tend to stick out more. But all in all, he does have the content thing going for him decently. 7/10.

Personality
Dreamer is quite the forceful debater and doesn't mind using certain underhanded tactics like flame-baiting. Though really, it has never been pulled on me. And I don't think I really mind watching, especially when we're in agreement many a times. :p He is quite fun though and a bit of a punk as well, and I count those as positives for him, so yeah. 8/10. A rather lively debating personality, indeed.

Style
Dreamer.. has his own signature style which is a bit of humor, a bit of fact, a bit of speculation and a lot of emotion thrown in. When he decides to defend a point, he'll do it with everything he has. At times this may lead to something of a tunnel vision with him not seeing/incorporating the others' view at all. But then again it hasn't been done with me and Dreamer is also the sort of person with whom you can engage in a thoughtful discussion - but he is, as a part of his personality, forceful and his style tends to hover around what he believes to be right = correct and hence, other person = incorrect, which may all just chalk up to his forceful personality - but yes, it is inevitably part of his style, which at times is charming, but at others, very tedious to deal with if you're going for a consensus type of thing. 6/10. (I don't know? The score is probably more of a... neutral opinion, because my personal take would prolly bump him up a couple points given how, well, I can usually read in between the lines and deal with his style comfortably enough most of the time)

Other Gets a random +2 to his score for being Dreamer. :p More laterz. :cool:

27.5+2 = 29.5/40.


Jack

Articulation
Jack has one of the best articulation skills on here. Second to none really, except a certain someone and that person probably wins out due to my personal bias and me not having a neutral perspective. :p But Jack, overall, has greatly improved over time and is now very adept at putting his point across on matters in a very clear manner. And not just clear, well worded and with adequate detail and explanation, so as to avoid confusions as far as possible. I don't believe I need to go for details, you can read his posts, they're all testament to what I'm speaking of. 9.5/10.

Content
Jack's content is usually rather effective, atleast supported by some form of evidence, if not entirely backed by it. Whereas he applies his head to the points at hand, subjective interpretations based on his opinions, intuition and understanding always form a part of his content - which may form a subject of healthy discussion in some cases and vehement disagreement on others, especially if it comes off as him trying to pass them off as fact. Personally I've only ever experienced it negatively in relation to Sasuke threads and even that was in the past. In that sense, coupled with his articulation, his content is very meaningful and relevant most of the times. 7/10.

Personality
I will leave all other assertions aside and simply and strictly talk about Jack with respect to my (range of) personal experiences with him on the debating scene. During earlier times, Jack came off as someone with a personality that screamed a closed logic vision (i.e. not seeing the other's pov) coupled with a superiority complex aka other person = stupid and wrong if not agreeing, which can be described as an intimidating and sometimes distasteful debating personality. But then things changed, I don't know how, when or where, but they changed fantastically for the better with him acquiring certain very fine qualities as a debater - those of being able to see where the opposition is coming from and also one of focusing on agreements and preferring to figure and work out disagreements as opposed to belligerently arguing them. Now it has come to the point that debates with him are mostly enriching conversations and most often hitting close to home to the quote I discussed above. I don't know how much this applies when he debates with and/or talks about others, but this is my personal assessment. 9/10.

Style
I think I sort of got it in the above three. :xd: Maybe I'll add in if something specific comes to mind later on. But overall, the style in general gets a 7. You may wonder why with the above high ratings this one falls lower.. well... just an instinctive thing I suppose. A bit hard to explain.

Other Not now, not now. >_> My hands will get owwy typing.

32.5/40, is the final score. :)


Several more on my list, but this is all for now. v.v

[Jαckums]

In regards to my use of tiers, it's more my own way of using Fang's system. The tiers simply indicate who, if I used her scoring system, would have got the higher scores. Eg. Top Tier = 30-40, High Tier = 25-29, Mid Tier = 20-24, etc. So they're still quite close in the end.

I'll also add, this is personality aside. In terms of maturity and general "attitude", Adam would be top tier for me, because in that respect, in my opinion, he's one of the best on here. If anything, his maturity and level-headed demeanor is what weighs out what I consider the 'flaws' in his debating style. You could debate with him for hours on end and never experience any frustration or irritation due to his personality or attitude. Although I imagine his persistence may inspire frustration, but that's a positive trait to possess.

Lastly, my ranking was generally based off of the Battledome and Bookstore. For example, if I were to rank based on GC, Adam would switch tiers with Dreamer and vane, as in said section, I find their debating is drastically different in contrast to their Naruto-based debating.

[Raikage's left hand]

This thread makes me realize how much of a gaping hole Smiley's absence has left in the forum and in our hearts.

[Pokeaotics]

^I lol'd and sighed at the same time.

[Mattus]

This thread makes me realize how much of a gaping hole Smiley's absence has left in the forum and in our hearts.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSmA5Opsl50ERlJ5_-gv_Br1uG46Um33tRG4ljsR8Gjz0ODD5--

[X-Drake]

Great Tier
Muffin

Good Tier
Aniki

Legendary Tier
Nikushimi

OMG do you actually believe that bullshit tier
Dreamer
Naru hina

Stop trying so hard Tier
Vane

[Mattus]

Legendary Tier:

Nikushimi
Xinobi

Elite Tier:

Muffin
Smiley
WhiteFang

Great Tier:

Aniki
Jackums
D.I.Y Death

Good Tier:

MinatoNamikaze
Jet
0ba

Great When Not Talking About Things He Dislikes/Likes Tier:

Adam

Dudez Chill, Is Deh Interwebz But You Great Tier:

Vane

Pwns But Doesn't Post Tier:

X-Drake

[Boot]

best debater i have ever seen is that kabuto fan girl that was here a while ago

she wins at everything.

[Mattus]

Omg, I remember her.

[Boot]

dreamer would probably marry her if she was still here.

[Mattus]

He should. We all should.

[Jαckums]

best debater i have ever seen is that kabuto fan girl that was here a while ago

she wins at everything.I just died, omg. You've earned a rep.

[WhiteFang]

OMFG. LMAO. Godammit Boot! :lmao:

But yeah, since ya'll would marry her, I so want her back now, just for the kicks of the marital conflict and resulting entertainment. ;D Really though, dang that girl had kicked up the Bookstore. xD I have to admit she was an admirable debater in the sense that she never backed down even though, sometimes, quite literally EVERYONE was against her. That's pretty damn cool in and of itself. :thumbs:

[Lord Orochimaru]

God tier:
Nikushimi

Great Tier:
Light Yagami
Jαckums
Raikage's left hand
NaruxHina_4_Ever
Aniki
WhiteFang

Great tier but doesn't post too much:
X-Drake
WithoutMercyorMeaning
Dreamer
Smiley
æther

Great tier but biased towards Minato and Itachi:
Vane
Minato Namekaze

[D.I.Y Death]

"God tier:
Nikushimi"

You can't be serious...broken logic is broken no matter how many big words and passive aggressive insults you add in. I mean do I have to remind everyone this is the same guy who thinks Itachi was God's left AND right testicle...the same guy who seems to love fluffing Raikage so bloody much that he considers reflex speed to be actual speed and makes the a+b=c connection to that means he's faster than SM Naruto who has demonstrated he's clearly faster through feats, not hearsay and conjecture.

That's not anywhere near the realm of a god tier debater.

[Mattus]

"God tier:
Nikushimi"

You can't be serious...broken logic is broken no matter how many big words and passive aggressive insults you add in. I mean do I have to remind everyone this is the same guy who thinks Itachi was God's left AND right testicle...the same guy who seems to love fluffing Raikage so bloody much that he considers reflex speed to be actual speed and makes the a+b=c connection to that means he's faster than SM Naruto who has demonstrated he's clearly faster through feats, not hearsay and conjecture.

That's not anywhere near the realm of a god tier debater.

Then you do not know what a debater is.

That's like saying you're an awful driver because you got lost. It has absolutely nothing to do with your driving ability.

Let me put it this way, he used broken logic a LOT and still won debates and got people to believe he was right. He put up one HELL of a debate every time. That is the mark of a fantastic debater. Debating is not related to right or wrong.

[Jαckums]

Then you do not know what a debater is.

That's like saying you're an awful driver because you got lost. It has absolutely nothing to do with your driving ability.

Let me put it this way, he used broken logic a LOT and still won debates and got people to believe he was right. He put up one HELL of a debate every time. That is the mark of a fantastic debater. Debating is not related to right or wrong.Basically this, TBH. It's not about being correct, it's about convincing others that you are, whether or not it's true, and Nikushimi was fantastic at it.

Being right all the time is just a plus (see; Jαckums :troll)

[D.I.Y Death]

Then you do not know what a debater is.

That's like saying you're an awful driver because you got lost. It has absolutely nothing to do with your driving ability.

Let me put it this way, he used broken logic a LOT and still won debates and got people to believe he was right. He put up one HELL of a debate every time. That is the mark of a fantastic debater. Debating is not related to right or wrong.

From what I remember he had to leave because he developed such a bad rep from losing all his BD debates until one day everyone just started putting up with it, I was literally the only one in the end who was calling him on his b.s. even you stopped. To further my point go to NF and start asking some of the "higher-ups" about him. You'll get a clear picture pretty quick.

In order to be a successful debater you simply can't be wrong. You don't have to be right but you can't be wrong. Niku is wrong a lot and thus he's not a good debater.

It's like saying he's an awful diver because he all he can do is float just beneath the surface.

[Mattus]

In order to be a successful debater you simply can't be wrong. You don't have to be right but you can't be wrong. Niku is wrong a lot and thus he's not a good debater.

It's like saying he's an awful diver because he all he can do is float just beneath the surface.

To be a great debater, you must be a great debater. It has nothing to do with being wrong or being right.

I'd like to use Boston Legal as my prime example. There have been several times when the lawyers on that show have defended something that is wrong and they win most of the time. Why is that? Because they argue their points better. It has nothing to do with being right. If you don't believe me watch the show. James Spader could convince me killing your mother is perfectly justifiable.

[D.I.Y Death]

To be a great debater, you must be a great debater. It has nothing to do with being wrong or being right.

I'd like to use Boston Legal as my prime example. There have been several times when the lawyers on that show have defended something that is wrong and they win most of the time. Why is that? Because they argue their points better. It has nothing to do with being right. If you don't believe me watch the show. James Spader could convince me killing your mother is perfectly justifiable.

Please, for the sake of credibility don't use a TV show as an example.
To be a good debater you can't be wrong because someone like me will pull enough information off the internet to make you look like an autistic child who can only scream in frustration and fling feces in defense. If that happens the person on the defensive has lost, not because they weren't right but because they were outright wrong and someone brought proof that they were wrong.

I don't know how you came to the conclusion that a good debater can be wrong but that's silly talk.

You can argue that a good debater will lose. Everyone does and in a debate sometimes you play devil's advocate, which means a loss in inevitable really but in the end it boils down to how often someone is wrong and how often they're exposed.

[Mattus]

Please, for the sake of credibility don't use a TV show as an example.

That makes it less relevant how? It's a valid point.


I don't know how you came to the conclusion that a good debater can be wrong but that's silly talk.

I didn't, you're putting words in my mouth. Great debaters do not need to be right to be a great debater.

[D.I.Y Death]

That makes it less relevant how? It's a valid point.

Because what you find believable another might not. Subjective points are subjective.




I didn't, you're putting words in my mouth.
My bad on that.


Great debaters do not need to be right to be a great debater.

We agree then, you don't have to be right, you just can't be wrong and to be wrong someone has to know you're wrong.

[Jαckums]

Not including those who have been inactive for long periods.

TOP TIER
WhiteFang
Smiley
Raikage's left hand

HIGH TIER
vane
Dreamer

MID TIER
NaruxHina_4_Ever
Mattus

I find my listing of Matt and Dreamer strange, because TBH, I find that Dreamer is simply incorrect about things most of the time. I actually agree with Matt more than vane and Dreamer (save recent topics), overall. Although I did make this list more off of feel, rather than looking at specific traits, so maybe that's why.

Maybe it's because Matt's debating is often just for the heck of it and he'll continue with his point just for something to do, even if he knows he's wrong (you troll, you). I'm not sure.

[Mattus]

Because what you find believable another might not. Subjective points are subjective.


True. But that's relevant to individual cases, not the show altogether.



My bad on that.


I don't actually care, just BD talk man. xD Oh yeah, watch out for that. Jack and I have gotten bored so we tend to get overly dramatic in the BD for kicks xD


We agree then, you don't have to be right, you just can't be wrong and to be wrong someone has to know you're wrong.

Yeah xD

---------- Post added at 12:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:50 AM ----------


"Maybe it's because Matt's debating is often just for the heck of it and he'll continue with his point just for something to do, even if he knows he's wrong (you troll, you). I'm not sure."

Ah, so very true :idk:

And I do agree about Dreamer. xD

[Dreamer]

Debating isn't all about the facts. Persuasion plays a big role in the art of debating. The true debater finds flaws within the arguments of other and exposes the truth through facts, essentially persuading the readers/listeners. If someone is a good with words, yet his/her logic is flawed, a skilled debater can easily expose this with facts.

---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------


I find that Dreamer is simply correct about things most of the time.
Can't argue with this.

[Mattus]

Debating isn't all about the facts. Persuasion plays a big role in the art of debating. The true debater finds flaws within the arguments of other and exposes the truth through facts, essentially persuading the readers/listeners. If someone is a good with words, yet his/her logic is flawed, a skilled debater can easily expose this with facts.

---------- Post added at 12:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:53 AM ----------


Can't argue with this.

:idk: Oh you.

[Jαckums]

I find my listing of Matt and Dreamer strange, because TBH, I find that Dreamer is simply incorrect about things most of the time. I actually agree with Matt more than vane and Dreamer (save recent topics), overall. Although I did make this list more off of feel, rather than looking at specific traits, so maybe that's why.

Maybe it's because Matt's debating is often just for the heck of it and he'll continue with his point just for something to do, even if he knows he's wrong (you troll, you). I'm not sure.It could even be Dreamer's horrible tastes simply making all of his logic and points irrelevant, who knows :troll

[Dreamer]

It could even be Dreamer's horrible tastes simply making all of his logic and points irrelevant, who knows :troll

#YouHateOnThoseYouRespect

:relax:

[Jαckums]

#YouHateOnThoseYouRespect

:relax:Not even hate, brah. This is how I show respect to my inferiors :relax:

[Dreamer]

Not even hate, brah. This is how I show respect to my role model :relax:

#LoveMyFans #Blessed

[D.I.Y Death]

True. But that's relevant to individual cases, not the show altogether.

Which is still subjective.



I don't actually care, just BD talk man. xD Oh yeah, watch out for that. Jack and I have gotten bored so we tend to get overly dramatic in the BD for kicks xD

Last time I got that bored I left lol.

I'm still not convinced Niku is a good debater. Just because you can convince a bunch of kinds that Itachi can shoot lighting from his eyes and consume the enemy with fireballs from his arse doesn't make it true and if those kids believe it without any physical evidence that shows he's a medium sized fish who likes swimming in a small pond. Are you telling me a good debater only fights their battles in the kiddie pool?

[Boot]

High Tier
1. jetkid
2. jetkid's personal dirary where he keeps track of all the time jackums mentions his name
3. jackums
4. jackums collection of short shorts
5. jackums glitterbox where he keeps all his hair paint
6. jackums kangaroo
7. kank

mid tier
1. vane
2. vane's 420 smileys

low tier
1. dreamer
2. dreamer's drug compound in colombia
3. majin
4. majin's ranch in the middle of nowhere where he gets away to read his prized possession - "The autobiography of britney spears"
5. x-drake
6. x-drake's 40 virgins
7. x-drake's 40 bombstraps
8. x-drake's future suicide bomber children


oh wait, this is top debaters?

i thought this was a list for most likely to be seen in public holding hands with justin bieber :idk:

[Dreamer]

High Tier
1. jetkid
2. jetkid's personal dirary where he keeps track of all the time jackums mentions his name
3. jackums
4. jackums collection of short shorts
5. jackums glitterbox where he keeps all his hair paint
6. jackums kangaroo
7. kank

mid tier
1. vane
2. vane's 420 smileys

low tier
1. dreamer
2. dreamer's drug compound in colombia
3. majin
4. majin's ranch in the middle of nowhere where he gets away to read his prized possession - "The autobiography of britney spears"
5. x-drake
6. x-drake's 40 virgins
7. x-drake's 40 bombstraps
8. x-drake's future suicide bomber children


oh wait, this is top debaters?

i thought this was a list for most likely to be seen in public holding hands with justin bieber :idk:
This pretty much says it all :idk:

[D.I.Y Death]

Poor Drake is getting picked on today like Boot is gonna get raptured tomorrow. LOL

[Toastykins]

High Tier
1. jetkid
2. jetkid's personal dirary where he keeps track of all the time jackums mentions his name
3. jackums
4. jackums collection of short shorts
5. jackums glitterbox where he keeps all his hair paint
6. jackums kangaroo
7. kank

mid tier
1. vane
2. vane's 420 smileys

low tier
1. dreamer
2. dreamer's drug compound in colombia
3. majin
4. majin's ranch in the middle of nowhere where he gets away to read his prized possession - "The autobiography of britney spears"
5. x-drake
6. x-drake's 40 virgins
7. x-drake's 40 bombstraps
8. x-drake's future suicide bomber children


oh wait, this is top debaters?

i thought this was a list for most likely to be seen in public holding hands with justin bieber :idk:

I haven't laughed this goddamn hard in a *long* time xD +Rep

[Jαckums]

High Tier
1. jetkid
2. jetkid's personal dirary where he keeps track of all the time jackums mentions his name
3. jackums
4. jackums collection of short shorts
5. jackums glitterbox where he keeps all his hair paint
6. jackums kangaroo
7. kank

mid tier
1. vane
2. vane's 420 smileys

low tier
1. dreamer
2. dreamer's drug compound in colombia
3. majin
4. majin's ranch in the middle of nowhere where he gets away to read his prized possession - "The autobiography of britney spears"
5. x-drake
6. x-drake's 40 virgins
7. x-drake's 40 bombstraps
8. x-drake's future suicide bomber children


oh wait, this is top debaters?

i thought this was a list for most likely to be seen in public holding hands with justin bieber :idk:My kangaroo should be #1. That bitch gets around :relax:

[Dreamer]

Still trying to figure out why Seth emphasized the word LONG #suspicious

[Boot]

does my list need some upgrading? http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff286/nfforums/43h7r5d.gif

[sproxy]

High Tier
1. jetkid
2. jetkid's personal dirary where he keeps track of all the time jackums mentions his name
3. jackums
4. jackums collection of short shorts
5. jackums glitterbox where he keeps all his hair paint
6. jackums kangaroo
7. kank

mid tier
1. vane
2. vane's 420 smileys

low tier
1. dreamer
2. dreamer's drug compound in colombia
3. majin
4. majin's ranch in the middle of nowhere where he gets away to read his prized possession - "The autobiography of britney spears"
5. x-drake
6. x-drake's 40 virgins
7. x-drake's 40 bombstraps
8. x-drake's future suicide bomber children


oh wait, this is top debaters?

i thought this was a list for most likely to be seen in public holding hands with justin bieber :idk:

Im gonna need both hands for this....

[Dreamer]

Just wanted to revive this thread and point out the debating clinic that's going on here (http://www.talknaruto.com/naruto/showthread.php?24375-Uchiha-Madara-vs-The-Akatsuki-Conditions).

#Nostalgia

[Jαckums]

There are three categories of debater on TN, as far as I'm concerned.

1. Refined/Astute
2. Refined/Inept
3. Unrefined/Astute

The first word of each categorization is basically referring to the debating form. Refined meaning a somewhat formal and mature way of carrying one's self in a debate. Unrefined is obviously the opposite; being relatively more casual, and sometimes, immature.

The second word is referring to, ultimately, how intelligent, clear-minded, and frequently correct a person is (solely in regard to BD debating). Astute meaning generally correct, and inept meaning generally wrong and questionable in the deduction of BD outcomes.

Fortunately I've yet to come across someone who's "Unrefined/Inept".



I'm going to list one stand-out member for each category (obviously based on my own opinion). This is restricted to the BD and BD debating and isn't a personal attack or applicable elsewhere. I figure people would assume who I was referring to anyway, so I'm just going to come out with my viewpoint on where I believe certain members could improve.

1. Refined/Astute: WhiteFang
This is evidently the ideal place to be. "Refined/Astute" suggests you're both clear-headed and also carry yourself in a structured and mature manner in debates. I think Fang embodies the ideal debater in that sense. Maybe not quite aggressive enough, in terms of form, for my personal tastes, but that's solely personal preference and not at all a negative thing. I think her passiveness and somewhat defensive style is a good tool for cooling heated debates and has had a positive effect on my attitude in the past; my good twin.

2. Refined/Inept: Dreamer
I personally find Dreamer to be occasionally-frequently, in one aspect or more, incorrect. On the up side, he has good form, acts maturely majority of the time, has structured posts, and generally isn't too stubborn when it comes to seeing the opposition's side of things.

3. Unrefined/Astute: vane
This will come as no surprise. Whilst being relatively clear-headed and, IMO, correct, vane doesn't particularly carry himself in a way that I encourage or find necessary. I don't believe I need to elaborate on the reasons, but for the sake of being consistent; insults, flame-baits, attitude -- and so on -- are the negatives of his style of debating, IMO.

[Kuro Nagashi]

Not trying to spam, but whatevs

I have decided it is my ultimate goal to make it into somebody's list here...especially with the BD seeming to be getting some interesting threads as of late.

[Dreamer]

I personally find Dreamer to be occasionally-frequently, in one aspect or more, incorrect.
Of course you would :idk:

[Jαckums]

Of course you would :idk:Yes, I would, and I do.

[Boot]

i find dreamer to be wrong 100% of the time

[Dreamer]

Yes, I would, and I do.
That mostly stems from your belief that Sasuke is a good character.

[Jαckums]

People on here are really sensitive and defensive.

I'd never really noticed until recently, and I'm not saying it to bait anyone, but just seeing how people respond to each others' relatively insignificant opinions on each other- IDK, they're just things I'd ignore or wouldn't find worthy of response. There's Boot, who trolls, then there's other members who pretend to troll but clearly take offense or are irritated by others' comments, and respond with an excess of emotes to try and convey this apathy, when really, if you were apathetic, you'd simply ignore it. Just an observation given recent "heated topics".

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That mostly stems from your belief that Sasuke is a good character.

It has nothing to do with your (or my own) character preferences. The Sasuke bait has gotten quite old. But OK. Though it's ultimately opinion either way, so I don't understand your defensiveness. I imagine you think the same about me, considering we disagree so often.

[Nyanki]

The second word is referring to, ultimately, how intelligent, clear-minded, and frequently correct a person is (solely in regard to BD debating). Astute meaning generally correct, and inept meaning generally wrong and questionable in the deduction of BD outcomes.
When you say "right" or "correct," do you mean like in choosing or agreeing with the side that would surely win in a fight, or do you mean like, despite whatever side taken, the person presents a case with reasonable points?

[Boot]

People on here are really sensitive and defensive.

I'd never really noticed until recently, and I'm not saying it to bait anyone, but just seeing how people respond to each others' relatively insignificant opinions on each other- IDK, they're just things I'd ignore or wouldn't find worthy of response. There's Boot, who trolls, then there's other members who pretend to troll but clearly take offense or are irritated by others' comments, and respond with an excess of emotes to try and convey this apathy, when really, if you were apathetic, you'd simply ignore it. Just an observation given recent "heated topics".


lolvane.

[Jαckums]

When you mean "right" or "correct," do you mean like in choosing or agreeing with the side that would surely win in a fight, or do you mean like, despite whatever side taken, the person presents a case with reasonable points?Yeah, I'm referring to instances which have a degree of obviousness to them. There's always the possibility of an alternate outcome, but to be general, there's usually a more "correct" answer. But as I said in my previous post, it's all ultimately opinion, and no-one, myself included, has the ability to say what is what. It's just my own personal viewpoint, though I feel I'm being quite objective. Eg. If I was trying to downplay Dreamer's debating ability solely for personal reasons, as his posts imply he believes, I wouldn't have complimented his form. Similarly, I wouldn't have stated I believe vane is generally clear-headed and/or correct (given we almost always butt heads when we debate).

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The latter (providing good points regardless of which side you back) I'd say is tricky. If there's an instance where such can be accomplished, though, I wouldn't necessarily consider it an "obvious" situation in the first place, and hence it's not entirely applicable to my post here.

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Essentially, what I was referring to was people who see the situation for what it is, to a degree. I think everyone is capable of such, though some members (whom would fall into the "Inept" category; which may be a somewhat harsh word) don't take into consideration all aspects, and therefore make claims prematurely and essentially dig themselves a hole, as they've already subconsciously convinced themselves that they're correct.

EDIT: Just read that last paragraph and ignore the rest. It's the most concise answer to your question. I over-elaborated and went a bit off-track above, haha.

[Dreamer]

It has nothing to do with your (or my own) character preferences. The Sasuke bait has gotten quite old. But OK. Though it's ultimately opinion either way, so I don't understand your defensiveness. I imagine you think the same about me, considering we disagree so often.
I think it does. A lot of our debates have centered around that theme. We have different perspectives on certain characters and that's where you're "mostly incorrect" deduction comes from. At least, that's where I believe it comes from, because I'm obviously not you.

[Jαckums]

I think it does. A lot of our debates have centered around that theme. We have different perspectives on certain character and that's where you're "mostly incorrect" deduction comes from. At least, that's where I believe it comes from, because I'm obviously not you.The majority of the debates I based that decision on had nothing to do with Sasuke. I literally only remember a single Sasuke-related debate between the two of us, and that was the discussion about the Kage Summit. Pulling the bias card seems a common thing for you. Maybe there's a bit more heat coming from your end based on our clashing preferences, but it's certainly not at all relevant to my statement in this thread. I also based it on debates between yourself and others, in which I haven't even been involved. But given your defensive attitude right now, explaining myself is relatively redundant.

[Dreamer]

The majority of the debates I based that decision on had nothing to do with Sasuke. I literally only remember a single Sasuke-related debate between the two of us, and that was the discussion about the Kage Summit. Pulling the bias card seems a common thing for you. Maybe there's a bit more heat coming from your end based on our clashing preferences, but it's certainly not at all relevant to my statement in this thread. I also based it on debates between yourself and others, in which I haven't even been involved. But given your defensive attitude right now, explaining myself is relatively redundant.
I that's the case, I'll have to take your word for it. And there's no defensive attitude at all, btw. I was simply commenting on why you would think that. You should know better by now.

[Nyanki]

See, I have always viewed debating as it is in school and other things, how the teams and competitions do it. It's about your ability to take any side and put up a good and believable argument. Sometimes I feel there is too much emphasis on choosing the "right" side on TN rather than the ability to make counterpoints and take interesting counterperspectives. Granted, there's some instances where doing so would be silly (Naruto vs. a mayfly), but in a lot of instances it's possible.

Biases also get called out a lot, which I think doesn't really serve much. Not only because it's really unlikely someone who is really, really biased will admit to and/or change their ways if it's true, pointing that out doesn't delude their argument. You can be a fanboy/fangirl and still make a good point.

I'd like to see more people attempt to take on debates from a side that isn't as popular, be it in their own beliefs or as devil's advocates. Heck, it'd be awesome to see that as one side "dies down" in a debate, someone on the more "dominating" side is all, "I see some points that could be made on the other side," or "This other side needs more people," and switches sides.

It'd be awesome to see people attempt to debate from sides that contradict what they would normally pick in general.

I'd like to see TN debaters improve and focus on the actual debating aspect, and focus less on what's actually right or wrong. You need two sides to debate anyway. A skilled debater should be able to take either side (most of the time) and be able to construct a convincing argument. Or that's how I feel.

[Jαckums]

@Dreamer:

And really, if my claims were based solely on who I've had the most BD conflict with, I'd be calling vane inept, because my history with him is far more heated than ours.

Furthermore, I'd prefer to debate with you over vane solely because of your form. I find being more refined is more important than being correct. Just letting you know that so you don't take my post as an attack, as there was equal compliment in there as there was criticism.

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See, I have always viewed debating as it is like in school and other things, how the teams and competitions do it. It's about your ability to take any side and put up a good and believable argument. Sometimes I feel there is too much emphasis on choosing the "right" side on TN rather than the ability to make counterpoints and take interesting counterperspectives. Granted, there's some instances where doing so would be silly (Naruto vs a mayfly), but in a lot of instances it's possible.It's exactly the same with me. I didn't mean to give the idea that I believed being right is a better quality than being able to debate your side well. I was simply categorising members based on that aspect, but not claiming it's inherently better. Like I said to Dreamer above, I put more value on the ability to debate well than the ability to "choose the winning side".


Biases also get called out a lot, which I think doesn't really serve much. Not only because it's really unlikely someone who is really, really biased will admit to and/or change their ways if it's true, pointing that out doesn't delude their argument. You can be a fanboy/fangirl and still make a good point.It's really just a way to flame-bait and/or irritate the opposition, most of the time. Personally, if I believe someone is biased to the extent of ignoring valid points, I'll voice it (as I have in the past), though I agree completely in that preference does not negate validity.


I'd like to see TN debaters improve and focus on the actual debating aspect, and focus less on what's actually right or wrong. You need two sides to debate anyway. A skilled debater should be able to take either side (most of the time) and be able to make a convincing argument.I agree, and to reiterate; I never meant to imply that I put weight in being correct. My use of "astute" was more referring to one's ability to break down the situation effectively and take into consideration all aspects, regardless of side, rather than jumping to conclusions (using the word "Inept" to refer to the latter).

[Nyanki]

Yeah, I got that from what you've been saying. I just took the time to write out my thoughts on the matter.

Edit:


It's really just a way to flame-bait and/or irritate the opposition, most of the time. Personally, if I believe someone is biased to the extent of ignoring valid points, I'll voice it (as I have in the past), though I agree completely in that preference does not negate validity.
Yeah, I think that's probably it. It's one thing to bring it up and another to try to use it as a hard means of convincing the person to change their stance or as an attack on the person to invalidate their entire case.

[Jαckums]

Yeah, I got that from what you've been saying. I just took the time to write out my thoughts on the matter.No problem.

[Mattus]

Hey, I'm not listed in inept. Excellent xD

I just don't care about Naruto enough to debate it. And everything I am interested in debating has either been done to death here(one issue to be exact) or have no one to debate with because this is a liberal ass forum. Someone bring me some republicans.

[Boot]

ill bring you a big fat STFU pie.

[Mattus]

Delicious.

[sproxy]

3. Unrefined/Astute: vane
This will come as no surprise. Whilst being relatively clear-headed and, IMO, correct, vane doesn't particularly carry himself in a way that I encourage or find necessary. I don't believe I need to elaborate on the reasons, but for the sake of being consistent; insults, flame-baits, attitude -- and so on -- are the negatives of his style of debating, IMO.


lolvane.

What the fuck did you just fucking say about me, you little pleb? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the Navy Seals, and I've been involved in numerous secret raids on Al-Quaeda, and I have over 300 confirmed kills. I am trained in gorilla warfare and I'm the top sniper in the entire US armed forces. You are nothing to me but just another target. I will wipe you the fuck out with precision the likes of which has never been seen before on this Earth, mark my fucking words. You think you can get away with saying that shit to me over the Internet? Think again, fucker. As we speak I am contacting my secret network of spies across the USA and your IP is being traced right now so you better prepare for the storm, maggot. The storm that wipes out the pathetic little thing you call your life. You're fucking dead, kid. I can be anywhere, anytime, and I can kill you in over seven hundred ways, and that's just with my bare hands. Not only am I extensively trained in unarmed combat, but I have access to the entire arsenal of the United States Marine Corps and I will use it to its full extent to wipe your miserable ass off the face of the continent, you little shit. If only you could have known what unholy retribution your little "clever" comment was about to bring down upon you, maybe you would have held your fucking tongue. But you couldn't, you didn't, and now you're paying the price, you goddamn idiot. I will shit fury all over you and you will drown in it. You're fucking dead, kiddo.

============

I don't think much of the debating scene anymore. It rarely happens. Matt doesn't post the complete opposite of what is widely believed even knowing what he says is wrong hardly anymore.

[Mattus]

I don't think much of the debating scene anymore. It rarely happens. Matt doesn't post the complete opposite of what is widely believed even knowing what he says is wrong hardly anymore.

Yeaaah, I've gotten to the point where I just don't care enough to even pretend to remember everything about the series...

[sproxy]

Well between that and Nikushimi leaving when he did, that was a large chunk the debating scene. Since then it died down only to rise up when I graced it with my unholy shit fest of ridicules and douche-ness. You pretty much gotta have that one asshole for things to really spark up or everyone just agrees with the next or makes 2 posts then agree's to disagree because they are to nice to keep saying the other is wrong :idk:

[Mattus]

Well between that and Nikushimi leaving when he did, that was a large chunk the debating scene. Since then it died down only to rise up when I graced it with my unholy shit fest of ridicules and douche-ness. You pretty much gotta have that one asshole for things to really spark up or everyone just agrees with the next or makes 2 posts then agree's to disagree because they are to nice to keep saying the other is wrong :idk:

Yeah basically. Tis a shame.

[Boot]

girl's plz...if i was serious about debating yall would build a shrine for my skillz.

[sproxy]

girl's plz...if i was serious about debating yall would build a shrine for my skillz.
http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll203/407boy88/emotes/michael-jordan-lol.gif
















http://i289.photobucket.com/albums/ll203/407boy88/emotes/1327451523907.jpg

[X-Drake]

1 ME
2
3
4
5 Vane and boot
6
7
8
9 Trolji
10
11
12
13
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15 Dreamer