Character Rating Thread #6: Sasuke

[himura~]

Ok so I'm picking a more involved character this time so give us something to talk about people. Go in-depth, start debates, etcetera.

This week's character is...

http://site.tisinc99.com/ge5243.jpg
SASUKE UCHIHA
"I am an avenger."
-
[was too lazy, didn't bother to
look for other quotes, supply me
with them if necessary, dawggz]

[Mattus]

Oh God this thread is gonna be troll and shit-logic central soon...

Sasuke is annoying, lame, an asshole, a douchebag, a faggot, a power-hungry jerk, an idiot, an illogical fool, a fool, a complete moron, blinded by hate, being a complete fucktard and hey....earth to biased and close-minded readers....THAT'S THE FUCKING POINT.

That's like saying Darth Vader is a bad character because he is evil...

Sasuke has fallen....a LOT. That's why he's such a good character. He's a main character who has fallen to this level and is a villain now. Congrats, Kishi is one of the few authors to have the balls to do this. But of course, Sasuke is an awful character because of this. He's bad because he's evil, makes bad decisions, etc...etc..No, you just don't like him randompersonwhomIamtalkingto.

[WhiteFang]

Oh, the insanity.

I know you did this to appease Jack, you girl, you...

:p

Sasuke is a half decent character, now. That's because he's completely crossed over to the mentally unstable side. But apart from that, he was a phail in Part 1 except the Land of the Waves arc. He lived that entire arc with a messed up kind of inferiority complex and transgressed into a weird, useless character, obsessed with revenge. But mostly the problem was that he was pathetic about it and lacked the capacity to use his brain. Sasuke is arguably one of weakest characters in the series, mentally. And Itachi is to fault for this, to a large extent. But then again, it was Sasuke's prerogative to derive strength and support from those who cared so much about him.

In Part 2 he was the definition of annoying. How someone can become absolutely devoid of cognitive abilities after talking to a man for 10 minutes in a cave is well... beyond me. That, and his cocky attitude though he's actually a total douche is also rather irritating to me on a personal level. Apart from all this, his sheer dumbness on most occasions except battles gets to me. He is a silly juvenile dictated by his hormones and lacks any sense or maturity.

Sasuke is one of Kishi's failures. He started off with a certain character and gave him certain traits and prolly wanted to develop him to this point. However, there are parts of his transgressions that are absolutely unconvincing because they contradict the basic personality of the character which was developed beforehand. When you give a character a U-turn, you have to do it very convincingly and with good reason, which I think Sasuke always lacked. Kishi just like wiped the slate and started writing something new and labeled it as lolvillainSasukecuzIsayso.

---------- Post added at 10:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:50 AM ----------

Oh yeah, almost forgot. He gets a 5.

[Boot]

finally a character worth mentioning..

10/10 for actually being a decent villain with a decent story to back up his claim.

[Mattus]

Sasuke is a half decent character, now. That's because he's completely crossed over to the mentally unstable side. But apart from that, he was a phail in Part 1 except the Land of the Waves arc.

It's funny because you picked one of the two times he legitimately failed.

Land of Waves and vs. Gaara(despite having the cards stacked against him both times)


He lived that entire arc with a messed up kind of inferiority complex and transgressed into a weird, useless character, obsessed with revenge

The first two comments in the last sentence...that is the point of the character good job.
The middle part is just dumb and obviously biased.


But mostly the problem was that he was pathetic about it and lacked the capacity to use his brain. Sasuke is arguably one of weakest characters in the series, mentally. And Itachi is to fault for this, to a large extent. But then again, it was Sasuke's prerogative to derive strength and support from those who cared so much about him.

...that's the fuckin' point.


In Part 2 he was the definition of annoying. How someone can become absolutely devoid of cognitive abilities after talking to a man for 10 minutes in a cave is well... beyond me. That, and his cocky attitude though he's actually a total douche is also rather irritating to me on a personal level. Apart from all this, his sheer dumbness on most occasions except battles gets to me. He is a silly juvenile dictated by his hormones and lacks any sense or maturity.

Again...that's the fuckin' point.

You are confusing bad for disliking.
Something isn't bad because you don't like it....


Sasuke is one of Kishi's failures. He started off with a certain character and gave him certain traits and prolly wanted to develop him to this point. However, there are parts of his transgressions that are absolutely unconvincing because they contradict the basic personality of the character which was developed beforehand. When you give a character a U-turn, you have to do it very convincingly and with good reason, which I think Sasuke always lacked. Kishi just like wiped the slate and started writing something new and labeled it as lolvillainSasukecuzIsayso.

They contradict nothing...and even if they did, it would make sense. And a U-Turn would be Hinata becoming a villain. Sasuke is like Anikan....Anikan made a U-turn? No. He made a right turn. He was going somewhere but because of the long ass red light he said fuck it and went another direction. It was not off the beaten path because it was quite obvious that the character COULD have turned out that way. Same with Sasuke. If you think he made a U-Turn then you have no right to post in the bookstore because clearly you have not read a singe page of the manga in your life.

[Kankurotto]

Sasuke was a 9 until he snapped right before he fought Raikage. Then he became a 10 in my book.

Good bio, cool persona, cocky, confident and very cold. Me likey.

A main character becoming a villain = Genius on Kishi's part.

[Dreamer]

8/10

Agree with what most things said above me.

Just hate the fact that Kishi converted him from a smart ninga into one who can only spam MS techs..... not to mention his bitchy emo "Everyone is against me" personality.

[WhiteFang]

.... zipped ....

They contradict nothing...and even if they did, it would make sense. And a U-Turn would be Hinata becoming a villain. Sasuke is like Anikan....Anikan made a U-turn? No. He made a right turn. He was going somewhere but because of the long ass red light he said fuck it and went another direction. It was not off the beaten path because it was quite obvious that the character COULD have turned out that way. Same with Sasuke. If you think he made a U-Turn then you have no right to post in the bookstore because clearly you have not read a singe page of the manga in your life.

No. Sasuke initially was shown to be someone who'd die for his comrades. Itachi comes and he just up and snaps. It was dumb. Because Sasuke had accumulated a lot of character strength by that time. It was documented throughout. Not only that, Sasuke was always shown to be someone who was logical and one who thought with his head. And then he just goes "Gahhh. Let's follow an S-class criminal who just destroyed the village to become more powerful." It was silly, childish writing.

And stop the Anikan comparisons when you clearly can't see how different the two characters are. Anikan had anomalies right from the start. He was adopted late into the Jedi order. He broke rules and fell in love. He slaughtered people to avenge his mother. He killed Count Dooku. He was always emotionally inclined and a hot head. It was all a process that led to a culmination.

Sasuke had nothing of the sort. He was one who always kept thinking logically. He had a healthy competition with Naruto and a bit of a superiority complex. He had begun to gel well with his team. Sasuke's intentions were always in the right place right upto the point when he just up and went. There was just a tiny bit development when he performed bad against Gaara and felt inferior to Naruto. Itachi came and mentally damaged him, but what Sasuke did there in entirety was OOC itself because he was never shown to be a guy of that type. Mental instabilities if there can be developed with much more skill and panache. Sasuke just ended up becoming very demented. Seeing Sasuke's development right upto the point of the defection, the defection itself comes out of a very weak background. A more likely scenario for him would have been a degree of self-loathing and him becoming a loner. Him running after Oro? No. Sasuke was just not shown to be the kind of person who does things impulsively, most of the times.

[Water Lilly]

At first I wanted to comment but then I read the first sentence Matt wrote and that was pretty much it
I know that lots of people dislike him and I can understand why but I'm getting tired of constantly reading what a stupid/selfish/idiotic emo he is.It's getting really old,not to mention immature.It's only a matter of time before this thread blows up.Unless people ignore which would be good in this case.

[WhiteFang]

^ Actually, if we look, at this point the only one who's got a problem with Sasuke as a character is me. The majority is the "Sasuke is an awesome cool villain." bandwagon. So it is actually the opposite of what you are stating. People clearly like Sasuke a lot. It's 5-1 at the moment, if favor of Sasuke. :p

[KyubiiRage]

1.5/10

He iis a cocky mofo that gets so much power at one time and also he thinks he is sooooooo cool that even when he was a genin he thought that he could take on a jounin. Damn emo bia*** threatening Madara and crap while at the same time sayng he will kill everyone who could stand in his way. He is one of the fails of manga history.



ok ok 4.5 I guess 1.5 was a little (little as in molecule sized) bit of an exaggeration

Its cool Fang your not the only one here lol.

[Water Lilly]

^ Actually, if we look, at this point the only one who's got a problem with Sasuke as a character is me. The majority is the "Sasuke is an awesome cool villain." bandwagon. So it is actually the opposite of what you are stating. People clearly like Sasuke a lot. It's 5-1 at the moment, if favor of Sasuke. :p

On this forum maybe but in general he's got loads of haters.To me this is just a simple bashing thread or is going to become.

[Pokeaotics]

Amazing, simply amazing. One of my favourite (living) characters. I just hope Kishi won't turn him good in the end.

[WhiteFang]

On this forum maybe but in general he's got loads of haters.To me this is just a simple bashing thread or is going to become.

D: Don't say that. And I mean it genuinely. We have our reasons to dislike him just like you may have yours to like him. So it shouldn't be labeled as "lolhaters". It's a matter of perspective, really. But by no means is it a bash-fest or something. You're mistaken.
And actually, liking/disliking a character is all about personal taste, first of all. And they differ all the time.

@KR: ROFL. You are so right, though. Sasuke first had a superiority complex, which digressed into a horrid kind of inferiority complex? Wtf? But still, he became dumber and dumber as time has passed. And I am not talking about battle smarts. [though they have also reached pathetic levels lately, with his MS-spam.] In general Sasuke is no longer cool/stylish. He is immature/stupid. Because that is what you have to be to attack a freakin' Kage Summit all on your own. And I really don't like immature punks who're full of themselves, and also don't have anything to show for it. Had it not been for Madara, he would've been melted alive.

I don't know on what grounds Sasuke is called a 'good' villain? He is just a silly lost child, with no clue of what he actually wants. He lacks planning as well, as of late. And he's never really stood up to his tall claims, either. Except maybe with Danzo. He is plot-less and thoughtless. So he isn't all entertaining to watch, for me anyways. He is just a tool, Madara's puppet.

#Edit: Who gave Sauce a one? :lmao:
#Edit 2: Nvm, I saw. xP
#Edit 3: I wish he comments in this thread. xDDD

[Mattus]

8/10

Agree with what most things said above me.

Just hate the fact that Kishi converted him from a smart ninga into one who can only spam MS techs..... not to mention his bitchy emo "Everyone is against me" personality.

I agree with the MS part. That was a bad move. I always enjoyed Sasuke's fighting before he got MS.
I enjoy his bitchy emo personality but yeah, the MS spamming is annoying...

[sproxy]

#Edit: Who gave Sauce a one?
#Edit 2: Nvm, I saw. xP
#Edit 3: I wish he comments in this thread. xDDD
More for lulz, plus I didnt want to make this a so called "Sasuke bashing" thread lol

Anyways if I was to vote for realz it would be a 3 or 4. I personally liked Sasuke in his earlier years. He's just to mentally vulnerable.

1. Wants to kill his brother
2. Finds out that Itachi loved him and was given the mission to kill his family (even though Itachi still killed the clan)
3. Now he wants to kill everyone else

And not only that, his skillful fighting was taken away. He practically stands still and shoots off some eye techniques anymore. When he fought Deidara I was impressed and really liked his character. But after that I just kind of dislike him.

[Mattus]

No. Sasuke initially was shown to be someone who'd die for his comrades. Itachi comes and he just up and snaps. It was dumb. Because Sasuke had accumulated a lot of character strength by that time. It was documented throughout. Not only that, Sasuke was always shown to be someone who was logical and one who thought with his head. And then he just goes "Gahhh. Let's follow an S-class criminal who just destroyed the village to become more powerful." It was silly, childish writing.

Again, you are confusing bad writing with your opinion.
It was excellent writing and you just proved why. It was a dumb, childish, and illogical mistake in which he turned himself into something he previously was not in order to bring a sort of redemption to his family.


And stop the Anikan comparisons when you clearly can't see how different the two characters are. Anikan had anomalies right from the start. He was adopted late into the Jedi order. He broke rules and fell in love. He slaughtered people to avenge his mother. He killed Count Dooku. He was always emotionally inclined and a hot head. It was all a process that led to a culmination.

The being adopted late is not an anomaly, Qui-Gon felt how strong the force was with him and insisted upon training him.

He slaughtered people to avenge his mother - He slaughtered people to avenge his clan.

Sasuke was emotionally unstable and a very jealous person.

Sasuke and Anikan both were heading toward either greatness or a great fall, both of whom picked the wrong path for what they felt were the right reasons and in return got nothing put pain, anguish, and lost sight of what they were originally trying to accomplish. Sasuke and Darth Vader are pretty damn similar now. Their actions may not be, but their progression is.


Sasuke had nothing of the sort. He was one who always kept thinking logically.

Except would occasionally lose himself.


He had a healthy competition with Naruto and a bit of a superiority complex.

Until he lost his head.


He had begun to gel well with his team.

Obi-Wan and Anikan were legendary. They got along tremendously.


Sasuke's intentions were always in the right place right upto the point when he just up and went.

Up and went meaning when the man whom he had bore an extreme hatred for for half his life and swore on killing returned and he discovered just how weak he really was? And then in his moment of weakness left and went to the one person who he thought could help him only to betray him because he was as aware as everyone else was that Orochimaru intended to betray him as well.


There was just a tiny bit development when he performed bad against Gaara and felt inferior to Naruto. Itachi came and mentally damaged him, but what Sasuke did there in entirety was OOC itself because he was never shown to be a guy of that type.

That was OOC just like Kisame not using Samehada was an abomination. It wasn't, it's your opinion but simple fact and logic can prove it wrong.

Sasuke was CLEARLY mentally fucked the hell up. That is the actual medical diagnosis, BY THE WAY. He saw the man who destroyed his life, killed his family and friends, and this person was his brother and his best friend. He was betrayed, hurt, and pitied. He clearly was repressing all sorts of emotions that finally broke free once Itachi returned, made him re-live that night, and fucked him physically and mentally but not sexually, literally, or hypothetically.

It wasn't out of character for two reasons. 1. He always had those emotions. 2. Itachi clearly caused him to change.


Mental instabilities if there can be developed with much more skill and panache. Sasuke just ended up becoming very demented. Seeing Sasuke's development right upto the point of the defection, the defection itself comes out of a very weak background. A more likely scenario for him would have been a degree of self-loathing and him becoming a loner. Him running after Oro? No. Sasuke was just not shown to be the kind of person who does things impulsively, most of the times.

It wasn't impulsively. He was shown to be inferior on four occasions one after another. He needed to kill Itachi and he hated knowing that he was still alive. Therefore we went to someone who can help him improve greatly quickly.

You make it sound like he did not actually develop and that it was just an instant change. It wasn't. Drop the bias and then read again.

---------- Post added at 12:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:46 PM ----------


He iis a cocky mofo that gets so much power at one time and also he thinks he is sooooooo cool that even when he was a genin he thought that he could take on a jounin. Damn emo bia*** threatening Madara and crap while at the same time sayng he will kill everyone who could stand in his way. He is one of the fails of manga history.

Flaming is against the rules....flaming is against the rules....flaming is against the rules.....

-sigh-

Okay....that's the fuckin' point.

---------- Post added at 12:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 PM ----------


1. Wants to kill his brother
2. Finds out that Itachi loved him and was given the mission to kill his family (even though Itachi still killed the clan)
3. Now he wants to kill everyone else

And not only that, his skillful fighting was taken away. He practically stands still and shoots off some eye techniques anymore. When he fought Deidara I was impressed and really liked his character. But after that I just kind of dislike him.

^^This is a good opinion of him imo.

Not, omglulzheissodumbandemoandblahblahblah. -punt-

Not gonna argue this because I actually agree. I like his inconsistencies because without him the story would be 100% about Naruto buying new shoes because he was KICKING EVERYONE'S ASS ALL THE TIME!

The Deidara fight was one of my favorites but the Itachi fight was mehhh and now he just spams MS....I hate what Kishi did with his fighting style and abilities but the character in general, his personality, I think is good.

For the record, I voted 9 but if I voted based on how I feel about him, I'd vote about 5 or 6.

[WhiteFang]

Again, you are confusing bad writing with your opinion.
It was excellent writing and you just proved why. It was a dumb, childish, and illogical mistake in which he turned himself into something he previously was not in order to bring a sort of redemption to his family.
You do realize that analysis of writing is infact about opinions of people, don't you? Twilight has a huge fan base. Those people clearly like that writing. There are of course the ones out there who don't. Judging writing and how you feel about it is all a matter of perspective and opinion.


The being adopted late is not an anomaly, Qui-Gon felt how strong the force was with him and insisted upon training him.
What I meant was that it was against the original Jedi rules nonetheless. And some of the Council was opposed to it as well. Obi-Wan insisted on training him to kind of fulfill his own master's last wish.


He slaughtered people to avenge his mother - He slaughtered people to avenge his clan.
Wrong timelines. Anikan continued to fight along-side Obi-Wan even after that. For Anikan, it was one of the stages of his transgression into an "evil" character. For Sasuke... it is the resultant.


Sasuke was emotionally unstable and a very jealous person.
This I agree with. However you shouldn't state it exclusively.


Sasuke and Anikan both were heading toward either greatness or a great fall, both of whom picked the wrong path for what they felt were the right reasons and in return got nothing put pain, anguish, and lost sight of what they were originally trying to accomplish. Sasuke and Darth Vader are pretty damn similar now. Their actions may not be, but their progression is.
Well yeah, but Anikan's was much more developed by the time. He'd already taken extreme steps like slaughtering people to avenge his mother. That, coupled with his emotional insecurities and false sense of righteousness and constant mental exploitation by Sidious at the right times led to that culmination point where he cut-off Windu's arm and became Darth Vader. Sasuke... was in loving company of friends for a good period and he'd shown no impulsiveness or mad tendencies. There was his superior attitude, but twice, without any hesitation, he was ready to put his life down for his comrades. I understand the entire Itachi being his #1 problem, but Sasuke actually had a strong character build up from before that.


Except would occasionally lose himself.
Before Itachi came to the scene... when? If you mention the incident where he broke that guy's arms for Sakura; it was a side-effect of the CS.


Until he lost his head.
And there wasn't a single good explanation for that. Had Sasuke been shown to have some kind of malicious intent towards Naruto right from the start, it would've made more sense.


Obi-Wan and Anikan were legendary. They got along tremendously.
Actually, Obi-Wan had left for Grievous when Anikan finally tilted over to the dark side. I actually consider it a pivotal part of Anikan's final shift; Obi-Wan was always that one person who was a calming presence for him - his tie-up to the light side. His partnership with him was probably what kept him from defecting/losing his mind for as long as it did.


Up and went meaning when the man whom he had bore an extreme hatred for for half his life and swore on killing returned and he discovered just how weak he really was? And then in his moment of weakness left and went to the one person who he thought could help him only to betray him because he was as aware as everyone else was that Orochimaru intended to betray him as well.
This is where the fault lies. I understand the Itachi stuff you're explaining. But the paradigm of shift caused by that defeat is too much, too sudden. Yes Sasuke felt weak. Yes his wounds were opened raw again. However, this Sasuke was still the one who from before had the character and background of having a very healthy relationship with his team despite his outward aloofness. He was also one to not do stupid things without thinking or mulling them over. It was all part of his persona. So, all of a sudden, loyal, inwardly caring Sasuke... goes off with an S-rank criminal who attacked his village and also nearly killed him/his friends before.



That was OOC just like Kisame not using Samehada was an abomination. It wasn't, it's your opinion but simple fact and logic can prove it wrong.

Sasuke was CLEARLY mentally fucked the hell up. That is the actual medical diagnosis, BY THE WAY. He saw the man who destroyed his life, killed his family and friends, and this person was his brother and his best friend. He was betrayed, hurt, and pitied. He clearly was repressing all sorts of emotions that finally broke free once Itachi returned, made him re-live that night, and fucked him physically and mentally but not sexually, literally, or hypothetically.

It wasn't out of character for two reasons. 1. He always had those emotions. 2. Itachi clearly caused him to change.
False. The entire problem lies with #1 and #2.
1: Those emotions simply weren't documented enough. His psyche was developed to be starkly different. He was the cool, logical, head over heart guy, who seemed to grow softer little by little as he gelled with his new found 'family'
2: And I know. But you know what sucks? Kishi never developed it. He ate that part. The extent of damage Itachi caused by affecting Sasuke's psychology was too much when we see how Sasuke was developed before it. It wasn't illustrated enough that everything and anything in this world to him was Itachi. Otherwise he would've focused and been that way all the time before as well. Also... when he attacked Itachi... it was... so not Sasuke. He was more Sasuke he fought him the second time.


It wasn't impulsively. He was shown to be inferior on four occasions one after another. He needed to kill Itachi and he hated knowing that he was still alive. Therefore we went to someone who can help him improve greatly quickly.

You make it sound like he did not actually develop and that it was just an instant change. It wasn't. Drop the bias and then read again.
Four? Excuse me? It was two. When he saw Naruto do against Gaara/Shukaku what he couldn't. And when they clashed on that roof. Lemme add though: the second encounter was after the Itachi mess-up and well, Kishi had already ruined Sasuke by that point imo.

And BTW, don't be disillusioned, because what you're arguing me right now is also your opinion of Kishi's writing and what you felt when you read it. So there is no fact and logic. And I know I'm saying this with the wrong quote, but whatever. :p



Not gonna argue this because I actually agree. I like his inconsistencies because without him the story would be 100% about Naruto buying new shoes because he was KICKING EVERYONE'S ASS ALL THE TIME!

The Deidara fight was one of my favorites but the Itachi fight was mehhh and now he just spams MS....I hate what Kishi did with his fighting style and abilities but the character in general, his personality, I think is good.

For the record, I voted 9 but if I voted based on how I feel about him, I'd vote about 5 or 6.
Well, my opinion is actually similar. I liked Sasuke till the point Itachi came, messed with him and he just lost all of his personality from before out of nowhere and proceeded to run-off with Orochimaru. I was okay with Hebi Sasuke, I was neutral about him. The Deidara fight was very interesting, though the end was very meh. I pretty much hated the silly tech-spam fest that was the ItaSauce battle and after that... after Madara happened... I just plain hate Sasuke. He has become too immature, stupid and think-with-your-hormones, for me to be able to like him; because he isn't even a half-decent villain.

[Mattus]

You do realize that analysis of writing is infact about opinions of people, don't you? Twilight has a huge fan base. Those people clearly like that writing. There are of course the ones out there who don't. Judging writing and how you feel about it is all a matter of perspective and opinion.

I'm aware but there is a line. Ryan and KyuubiRage represent that line. Ryan doesn't like Sasuke that much and critically analyzed him with both logic and opinion. KyuubiRage's post was filled with nothing but bullshit. You imo are on the fence. Not spraying bullshit but certainly aren't making a completely sound case, no offense.


What I meant was that it was against the original Jedi rules nonetheless. And some of the Council was opposed to it as well. Obi-Wan insisted on training him to kind of fulfill his own master's last wish.

I'm aware. However this was not Anikan's doing, it was Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's.


Well yeah, but Anikan's was much more developed by the time. He'd already taken extreme steps like slaughtering people to avenge his mother. That, coupled with his emotional insecurities and false sense of righteousness and constant mental exploitation by Sidious at the right times led to that culmination point where he cut-off Windu's arm and became Darth Vader.

Actually, the point where he cut off his arm was an impulse and instinct when Mace was about to kill Sidious.


Sasuke... was in loving company of friends for a good period and he'd shown no impulsiveness or mad tendencies. There was his superior attitude, but twice, without any hesitation, he was ready to put his life down for his comrades. I understand the entire Itachi being his #1 problem, but Sasuke actually had a strong character build up from before that.

Yes but a quick, almost immediate fall back down after the man he despised returned. I can understand why, and I'm not saying you have to like it, I'm saying at least understand why he fell.


Before Itachi came to the scene... when? If you mention the incident where he broke that guy's arms for Sakura; it was a side-effect of the CS.

The CS definitely changed him as well, if not for that Sasuke wouldn't have turned.


And there wasn't a single good explanation for that. Had Sasuke been shown to have some kind of malicious intent towards Naruto right from the start, it would've made more sense.

You are mixing your opinion into this again.
You don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't good. It's like someone saying rap sucks. No, you just don't like it. Same thing. You think there wasn't a good explanation but Itachi was the explanation and it was a pretty damn good one.


This is where the fault lies. I understand the Itachi stuff you're explaining. But the paradigm of shift caused by that defeat is too much, too sudden.

Yes, you're right. It was both too much and too sudden. He lost to Gaara then bam, lost to Itachi then bam lost to Naruto(the match ended in a tie with the water tower being the final judge and as shown, Naruto was clearly the victor of that fight), then bam lost to the Sound 4.

He lost too many times, too fast, and it made him feel weak and inferior.


Yes Sasuke felt weak. Yes his wounds were opened raw again. However, this Sasuke was still the one who from before had the character and background of having a very healthy relationship with his team despite his outward aloofness. He was also one to not do stupid things without thinking or mulling them over. It was all part of his persona. So, all of a sudden, loyal, inwardly caring Sasuke... goes off with an S-rank criminal who attacked his village and also nearly killed him/his friends before.

This would be a good argument...had Sasuke been loyal to Orochimaru. Sasuke knew of what he had done but he also knew he could help him. Sasuke knew Orochimaru would betray him, but not for three years. As shown, Sasuke did the right thing after those three years.

Secondly, he did think. Kakashi left him there to think. The Sound 4 gave him a chance to think. He had been thinking from mid-day to the middle of the night when he left.


1: Those emotions simply weren't documented enough. His psyche was developed to be starkly different. He was the cool, logical, head over heart guy, who seemed to grow softer little by little as he gelled with his new found 'family'

And then his brother returned and reminded him of his mission, how little he has accomplished, how far he still had to go before he could even think of avenging his clan. Those emotions needn't be documented constantly. That's bad writing. It's obvious writing.

Kishi played to his dark side quite a few times. His first appearence, that first monologue. It was clear from the beginning that those feelings were still there yet he had started to move past it. Until Itachi returned.


2: And I know. But you know what sucks? Kishi never developed it. He ate that part. The extent of damage Itachi caused by affecting Sasuke's psychology was too much when we see how Sasuke was developed before it.

You talk like you haven't read the manga yet you imply that you have studied Sasuke closely. Clearly, you have not. Sasuke was not developed nearly as soft and great as you think he was. Those feelings were always there, since the beginning of the series they were there.


It wasn't illustrated enough that everything and anything in this world to him was Itachi. Otherwise he would've focused and been that way all the time before as well. Also... when he attacked Itachi... it was... so not Sasuke. He was more Sasuke he fought him the second time.

You couldn't be more black and white about this.

Sasuke had not seen his brother since that night. In seven years he had not seen him. The feelings were there but they were starting to be pushed back. Until he sees his brother again, seven years after he took everything from him. It doesn't have to be like him. You wouldn't be like you had you been in his situation.


Four? Excuse me? It was two. When he saw Naruto do against Gaara/Shukaku what he couldn't. And when they clashed on that roof. Lemme add though: the second encounter was after the Itachi mess-up and well, Kishi had already ruined Sasuke by that point imo.

1. Gaara.
2. Sasuke.
3. Naruto.
4. Sound-Four.

Four occasions. Kishi has only just recently ruined him, and has only ruined his fighting style.

Like I've said before, your argument on why he is bad is exactly why he's good.

He isn't supposed to be the well-liked character. Kishi isn't writing and thinking "gosh, what a swell guy." He's thinking, "wow, I like this son of a bitch." Because that's what he is. A son of a bitch. And that's the point. He's supposed to be mentally unstable, illogical, etc... He is supposed to have shown a sudden and drastic change when faced with the man who took everything.

Secondly, another Sasuke-Anikan parallel.

Sasuke turned for vengeance. Anikan turned for love.

However when both realized their missions have failed, they did not turn back. Just saying.


Well, my opinion is actually similar. I liked Sasuke till the point Itachi came, messed with him and he just lost all of his personality from before out of nowhere and proceeded to run-off with Orochimaru. I was okay with Hebi Sasuke, I was neutral about him. The Deidara fight was very interesting, though the end was very meh. I pretty much hated the silly tech-spam fest that was the ItaSauce battle and after that... after Madara happened... I just plain hate Sasuke. He has become too immature, stupid and think-with-your-hormones, for me to be able to like him; because he isn't even a half-decent villain.

1. You say the end of the Deidara fight was bad when in fact it was the only one that paid respects to the character. Deidara died like he lived. He stayed 100% in character throughout his entire run in the series. The end was the best part. Sasuke won by default and Deidara died as he should have.

2. The last sentence proves why he is good. That's the fuckin' point.

[himura~]

Hello my loves, I know you are in a heated conversation and such, but could you perhaps quite it down and put anything non-rating related and argumentative in spoilers? If you title each spoiler to someone it'll be like a public PM, yay:0) It's for organization's sake, just stuff like that you know=) Please'n thankya!

AND WHO SAID THIS WAS A BASHING THREAD? Nonono, it's a rating thread, we just have a...small..side argument going on, that's all: )

I know you did this to appease Jack, you girl, you...
Quite a preposterous assumption you're making..I have no clue what you are talking about...huhuhuhuhu

Sasuke gets a seven from me. I'll elaborate on that in further posts soon!

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I gave a 1 (pity I can't give Zero)
and I know am gonna get hate spammed for my rather vocal opinions

but meh

sasuke is without a doubt a horrible character
plain and simple

He was Good at the start if a little Genericy...brooding shounen guy but hey he was about par for many of the characters and filled his niche about as well as he needed to
He showed good progress throughout the show with the whole outcast to friend kinda thing and I even didn't mind the whole Itachi thing and repressed rage/impotence brought about by the cursed seal

then he left
.
.
.
thus began Sasukes spiral into lalaland

First was the rather arbitrary turn from okay guy to the hollow and rather one dimensional character of post skip Sasuke
he lost all intrigue and became a rather bland and boring one trick pony with little characterisation, boring motivation and only broken by the occasional interesting fight

Finally he faced Itachi in a somewhat (IMO) anticlimactic battle and Sasuke is now a pointless character (Considering he lost what little point his character had)

But wait
Itachi was a good Guy
and thus we get the Sasuke megabrainexplosionextravaganza
After a short speech from an obvious villain (One who openly admits killing the Uchihas with Itachi which logically makes him the obvious target for Sasuke revenge rage) Sasuke becomes a bad guy

Why?
I dunno
we get some hamfisted reasons why Sasuke would suddenly want to destroy the leaf in his brother name despite this being the opposite of what Itachi wanted according to the SAME GUY THAT TOLD HIM HE WAS RESPONSIBLE
and Sasukes downfall is complete

It is also at this point that Sasuke gets MS and his entire fighting style becomes monotonous and boring taking away what little charam his character had left

now we have a character with arbitrary motives, boring fighting moves and no real depth being tugged around by the main villain
I have no doubt he is going to try and make Sasuke a tragic hero
but as all Sasukes current problems are of his own making this seems kinda stupid

so yeah

and I am going to pre-empt a response
Yes Matt I know this is my opinion
And yes I know you don't agree
But remember that is Your opinion

[Dreamer]

I gave a 1 (pity I can't give Zero)
and I know am gonna get hate spammed for my rather vocal opinions

but meh

sasuke is without a doubt a horrible character
plain and simple

He was Good at the start if a little Genericy...brooding shounen guy but hey he was about par for many of the characters and filled his niche about as well as he needed to
He showed good progress throughout the show with the whole outcast to friend kinda thing and I even didn't mind the whole Itachi thing and repressed rage/impotence brought about by the cursed seal

then he left
.
.
.
thus began Sasukes spiral into lalaland

First was the rather arbitrary turn from okay guy to the hollow and rather one dimensional character of post skip Sasuke
he lost all intrigue and became a rather bland and boring one trick pony with little characterisation, boring motivation and only broken by the occasional interesting fight

Finally he faced Itachi in a somewhat (IMO) anticlimactic battle and Sasuke is now a pointless character (Considering he lost what little point his character had)

But wait
Itachi was a good Guy
and thus we get the Sasuke megabrainexplosionextravaganza
After a short speech from an obvious villain (One who openly admits killing the Uchihas with Itachi which logically makes him the obvious target for Sasuke revenge rage) Sasuke becomes a bad guy

Why?
I dunno
we get some hamfisted reasons why Sasuke would suddenly want to destroy the leaf in his brother name despite this being the opposite of what Itachi wanted according to the SAME GUY THAT TOLD HIM HE WAS RESPONSIBLE
and Sasukes downfall is complete

It is also at this point that Sasuke gets MS and his entire fighting style becomes monotonous and boring taking away what little charam his character had left

now we have a character with arbitrary motives, boring fighting moves and no real depth being tugged around by the main villain
I have no doubt he is going to try and make Sasuke a tragic hero
but as all Sasukes current problems are of his own making this seems kinda stupid

so yeah

and I am going to pre-empt a response
Yes Matt I know this is my opinion
And yes I know you don't agree
But remember that is Your opinion
+rep.

[KyubiiRage]

I'm aware but there is a line. Ryan and KyuubiRage represent that line. Ryan doesn't like Sasuke that much and critically analyzed him with both logic and opinion. KyuubiRage's post was filled with nothing but bullshit. You imo are on the fence. Not spraying bullshit but certainly aren't making a completely sound case, no offense.

Dont act like youve never started hating or flaming on someone. Even the mods and admins do that. Plus this thread is about your opinion on someone. That someone happens to be a manga character not a person like you or me. And no my post didnt have bs cause I said the truth.


I'm aware. However this was not Anikan's doing, it was Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's.

Im quoting Fang on this but seriously get of the Star Wars belt. Anakin had other reasons to go evil. He was manipulated and used. Sasuke just went evil cause he wanted to kill his brother.



The CS definitely changed him as well, if not for that Sasuke wouldn't have turned.

It doesn't matter about CS it was his avenger motif that led to him being a Missing nin.


And then his brother returned and reminded him of his mission, how little he has accomplished, how far he still had to go before he could even think of avenging his clan. Those emotions needn't be documented constantly. That's bad writing. It's obvious writing.

That is why Sasuke as a character sucks.


You talk like you haven't read the manga yet you imply that you have studied Sasuke closely. Clearly, you have not. Sasuke was not developed nearly as soft and great as you think he was. Those feelings were always there, since the beginning of the series they were there.

Yah but even when he had those feelings he still cared about his team and was becoming a great character that everyone liked. For a short time when he was with Taka and fought Deidara he was a great character aswell. Then he totally mistook Itachis motive and just became an idiot.

[joelout]

dono what to give.. somewhere between 3-9 i guess. I really like him turning from good to all crazy but the extreme overuse of all MS/sharingan rapidly decrease his points (as it does with the hole manga)

[WhiteFang]

I'm aware but there is a line. Ryan and KyuubiRage represent that line. Ryan doesn't like Sasuke that much and critically analyzed him with both logic and opinion. KyuubiRage's post was filled with nothing but bullshit. You imo are on the fence. Not spraying bullshit but certainly aren't making a completely sound case, no offense.
Once again, no matter how much you try to "justify" it, at the end of the day, character like/dislike = opinion. Nothing less, nothing more. The reasoning etc. all however around that. And none taken. ;)


I'm aware. However this was not Anikan's doing, it was Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan's.
Yeah, but I'm saying it effected Anikan, and his wrong development started right there.


Actually, the point where he cut off his arm was an impulse and instinct when Mace was about to kill Sidious.
That particular instant was, because battle/situation reactions are a lot about instinct. However, there was a huge, huge build up to that one moment. It was just a tipping point. Sasuke's was nowhere near as big. He hadn't been moving about hating/killing people before.


Yes but a quick, almost immediate fall back down after the man he despised returned. I can understand why, and I'm not saying you have to like it, I'm saying at least understand why he fell.
I actually do. As I mentioned further below in my previous post, I truly began to... hate Sasuke kind of, after the Madara incident.


The CS definitely changed him as well, if not for that Sasuke wouldn't have turned.
True, that is a valid point.


You are mixing your opinion into this again.
You don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't good. It's like someone saying rap sucks. No, you just don't like it. Same thing. You think there wasn't a good explanation but Itachi was the explanation and it was a pretty damn good one.
You are too.
You like it, doesn't mean it is good. It's like someone saying Trance sucks because it has no lyrics. No, you just don't like it. Same thing. You think there was a good explanation, but Itachi was the explanation, and it wasn't good enough.


Yes, you're right. It was both too much and too sudden. He lost to Gaara then bam, lost to Itachi then bam lost to Naruto(the match ended in a tie with the water tower being the final judge and as shown, Naruto was clearly the victor of that fight), then bam lost to the Sound 4.

He lost too many times, too fast, and it made him feel weak and inferior.
I was only counting the blows on his psyche before Itachi's arrival. After it, Kishi had already made that U-turn for Sasuke and ruined him imo. Sasuke was logical and he abandoned it.
It made him feel weak and inferior so he went off with a freakin' S-class criminal, not to mention almost killed Naruto. This isn't Sasuke which was developed to the point right upto Itachi's appearance. He was stronger than this, not so mentally vulnerable and... and... crazy.


This would be a good argument...had Sasuke been loyal to Orochimaru. Sasuke knew of what he had done but he also knew he could help him. Sasuke knew Orochimaru would betray him, but not for three years. As shown, Sasuke did the right thing after those three years.

Secondly, he did think. Kakashi left him there to think. The Sound 4 gave him a chance to think. He had been thinking from mid-day to the middle of the night when he left.
But Sasuke did take a huge risk. It was just as likely that Orochimaru would swallow him up and get the sharingan as a result and hence wreck everyone and everything. Sasuke had no right intentions. It was all just him being... well, him. The new kind of Sasuke Kishi was trying to build, whatever. Sasuke was still being immature and juvenile. But anyways, discussing his behavior post-defection is pointless, upto the point he met Madara. After his defection, Sasuke's new revenge obsessed psyche was already established so he did, what he had to. By that time his obsession with revenge was obvious. However, my problem is with that defection itself which led to said psyche. Kishi did a bad job with it.



And then his brother returned and reminded him of his mission, how little he has accomplished, how far he still had to go before he could even think of avenging his clan. Those emotions needn't be documented constantly. That's bad writing. It's obvious writing.

Kishi played to his dark side quite a few times. His first appearence, that first monologue. It was clear from the beginning that those feelings were still there yet he had started to move past it. Until Itachi returned.
They were few and far-between, to the point that I feel it pretty much felt like Sasuke was healing, and had already done so to a large extent. You say his dark ambitions were always simmering underneath: Well, I'm saying he consciously threw away this ambition twice for the sake of his comrades. That's positive character development and strength. And then it just... blows when Itachi returned. It was too much stress on one event. Not to mention the OCC behavior of Sasuke in that very encounter, and how that itself was un-Sasuke to begin with. Kishi was just all - hey. I haven't planned much yet, but throwing Sasuke to the dark side will be cool. :sinister: Let's do it!


You talk like you haven't read the manga yet you imply that you have studied Sasuke closely. Clearly, you have not. Sasuke was not developed nearly as soft and great as you think he was. Those feelings were always there, since the beginning of the series they were there.
Highly opinionated claims. I've been reading this manga and studying Sasuke and if you read my posts you'll see that my problem is with how Kishi has zero consistency whilst writing him. I don't like the defection/Sasuke's behavior on Itachi's arrival which came out of nowhere, which is contrary to his character development preceding that event. Wasn't soft and great? Sasuke was ready to throw his life away for his comrades twice. He also showed definite inclinations to protect them throughout the Chuunin exams. Even in the CS, he wished to avenge Sakura's pain. Sasuke did have his issues. But Sasuke did, surely, truly, heal as well. A lot. His character strength was greater than what Kishi did to him.



You couldn't be more black and white about this.

Sasuke had not seen his brother since that night. In seven years he had not seen him. The feelings were there but they were starting to be pushed back. Until he sees his brother again, seven years after he took everything from him. It doesn't have to be like him. You wouldn't be like you had you been in his situation.
Sasuke willingly wanted to die twice for his comrades. DIE. Abandon his "ambition", his life, forever. You call that starting to be pushed back? And you call seven years of building up a strong logical personality as... nothing? I'm sorry but I don't buy it. Because it wasn't indicated at all. What would've made sense would've been Sasuke having a recurring fixation with Itachi and not allowing himself to heal or become close to others. Then his reactions, his hatred, everything would've looked better. Still doesn't cure the awfulness that is Taka Sasuke, though.



1. Gaara.
2. Sasuke.
3. Naruto.
4. Sound-Four.

Four occasions. Kishi has only just recently ruined him, and has only ruined his fighting style.
I was counting only pre-Itachi. It's pointless to discuss it... after it. Because Sasuke had become OOC. And I think your second bullet is supposed to be Itachi. :p


Like I've said before, your argument on why he is bad is exactly why he's good.

He isn't supposed to be the well-liked character. Kishi isn't writing and thinking "gosh, what a swell guy." He's thinking, "wow, I like this son of a bitch." Because that's what he is. A son of a bitch. And that's the point. He's supposed to be mentally unstable, illogical, etc... He is supposed to have shown a sudden and drastic change when faced with the man who took everything.

Secondly, another Sasuke-Anikan parallel.

Sasuke turned for vengeance. Anikan turned for love.

However when both realized their missions have failed, they did not turn back. Just saying.
lol. No, he isn't a soab. That's the problem. He isn't a proper villain. He just looks like a lost child who keeps shifting blame here and there and can't accept his weaknesses. Sasuke is the definition of pathetic and something you'd pity for his very small frame of mind. He basically has no direction. He is dictated by hormonal teenage urges to do this and that, is all. So he isn't a soab or I would've like him. The way I like Pein/Nagato. Borderline insane behavior. But, stoicism. Cruelty. An inexplicable, annoying self-righteousness. Bursts of peace in a chain of hatred... God-complex. Dementedly logical thought process.
Sasuke is.. best described by Nikushimi's siggeh. He's become incapable of higher cognitive functions as time has passed. In other words, Sasuke is a brat. Why should I... like an immature brat with no purpose at all? He's a waste of manga panels. He is so infuriatingly simple, Kishi doesn't need to waste pages explaining his character because... he doesn't have one left. Fights isn't what the manga is all about. It's just a part of it. The other part, the character development is just, irrelevant with respect to Sasuke.
He's lost, pathetic, lonely, empty and like a stupid child, he tries to overcome with a silly little false superiority complex. And this is what he's ALWAYS been, so where is the development? [sans pre-Itachi, which Kishi threw water over because he felt like it] Sauce is just vulnerable and weak, which is why Naruto needs to save his pathetic ass. That's all what's left to his character.


1. You say the end of the Deidara fight was bad when in fact it was the only one that paid respects to the character. Deidara died like he lived. He stayed 100% in character throughout his entire run in the series. The end was the best part. Sasuke won by default and Deidara died as he should have.

2. The last sentence proves why he is good. That's the fuckin' point.
1. I wasn't saying in that sense. >_> I meant how Sasuke barely had chakra left but he managed a summon, genjutsu'd it and went inside it, when an explosion was blowing mere meters from his face. It was PnJ. Because otherwise, Sasuke should be faster than Madara or something, and his reflexes have to be greater than A's or something.

2. Just because you say so? No it isn't the point. It's just your perspective. I think it is a miserable failure of a character which lacked any consistent development. Sasuke's graph chart follows no curve. Sasuke gets mad, loses mind, defects after Itachi encounter. Tries to kill his teammates on reunion. Kills Oro. Forms a new team. Suddenly fondly remembers Team 7 on the bridge. Forces Deidara to commit suicide. Fights Itachi. Nearly dies. Madara cave talk. Goes nuts. Gets MS. Says will destroy Konoha, will use Akatsuki. In secret says he'll only kill elders. Shows clear love for comrades in fight against KB. Then failed KB capture. Then Madara says something. Attacks Kage Summit. Goes nuts again. Nearly dies. Saved by Madara. Fights Danzo. Causes him to commit suicide too. Nearly kills Karin. Reunites with Team 7, tries to kill them again. Goes blind. Gets EMS.

So yeah, wait what? Where is the development here? It's just a bunch of random events strung together. Just what caused him to suddenly grow more sinister after the KB fight and what possessed him to attack the Summit? Where did the 'use Akatsuki' bit go? Blah blah blah. And in the KB fight he uses Amaterasu and then puts it off to save his team. Then one fight later, he wants to kill them as well. lol. Sasuke = senseless. Kishi has no planned character development for him. He's just chugging him along to stuff powers into him, so that he's ready for Naruto. Sasuke's character development is dead.

---------- Post added at 03:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:08 AM ----------

Adam I freakin' love you! <3

---------- Post added at 03:12 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:11 AM ----------


Hello my loves, I know you are in a heated conversation and such, but could you perhaps quite it down and put anything non-rating related and argumentative in spoilers? If you title each spoiler to someone it'll be like a public PM, yay:0) It's for organization's sake, just stuff like that you know=) Please'n thankya!

AND WHO SAID THIS WAS A BASHING THREAD? Nonono, it's a rating thread, we just have a...small..side argument going on, that's all: )

Quite a preposterous assumption you're making..I have no clue what you are talking about...huhuhuhuhu

Sasuke gets a seven from me. I'll elaborate on that in further posts soon!

Lies I say. All lies. :p

---------- Post added at 03:14 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 AM ----------



But wait
Itachi was a good Guy
and thus we get the Sasuke megabrainexplosionextravaganza
After a short speech from an obvious villain (One who openly admits killing the Uchihas with Itachi which logically makes him the obvious target for Sasuke revenge rage) Sasuke becomes a bad guy

Why?
I dunno
we get some hamfisted reasons why Sasuke would suddenly want to destroy the leaf in his brother name despite this being the opposite of what Itachi wanted according to the SAME GUY THAT TOLD HIM HE WAS RESPONSIBLE
and Sasukes downfall is complete

It is also at this point that Sasuke gets MS and his entire fighting style becomes monotonous and boring taking away what little charam his character had left

now we have a character with arbitrary motives, boring fighting moves and no real depth being tugged around by the main villain
I have no doubt he is going to try and make Sasuke a tragic hero
but as all Sasukes current problems are of his own making this seems kinda stupid


576 million times this. +Rep indeed.

[sproxy]

I gave a 1 (pity I can't give Zero)
and I know am gonna get hate spammed for my rather vocal opinions

but meh

sasuke is without a doubt a horrible character
plain and simple

He was Good at the start if a little Genericy...brooding shounen guy but hey he was about par for many of the characters and filled his niche about as well as he needed to
He showed good progress throughout the show with the whole outcast to friend kinda thing and I even didn't mind the whole Itachi thing and repressed rage/impotence brought about by the cursed seal

then he left
.
.
.
thus began Sasukes spiral into lalaland

First was the rather arbitrary turn from okay guy to the hollow and rather one dimensional character of post skip Sasuke
he lost all intrigue and became a rather bland and boring one trick pony with little characterisation, boring motivation and only broken by the occasional interesting fight

Finally he faced Itachi in a somewhat (IMO) anticlimactic battle and Sasuke is now a pointless character (Considering he lost what little point his character had)

But wait
Itachi was a good Guy
and thus we get the Sasuke megabrainexplosionextravaganza
After a short speech from an obvious villain (One who openly admits killing the Uchihas with Itachi which logically makes him the obvious target for Sasuke revenge rage) Sasuke becomes a bad guy

Why?
I dunno
we get some hamfisted reasons why Sasuke would suddenly want to destroy the leaf in his brother name despite this being the opposite of what Itachi wanted according to the SAME GUY THAT TOLD HIM HE WAS RESPONSIBLE
and Sasukes downfall is complete

It is also at this point that Sasuke gets MS and his entire fighting style becomes monotonous and boring taking away what little charam his character had left

now we have a character with arbitrary motives, boring fighting moves and no real depth being tugged around by the main villain
I have no doubt he is going to try and make Sasuke a tragic hero
but as all Sasukes current problems are of his own making this seems kinda stupid

so yeah

and I am going to pre-empt a response
Yes Matt I know this is my opinion
And yes I know you don't agree
But remember that is Your opinion

I had to rep this also. I wanted to make a point also about how Sasuke had turned what Itachi wanted around and how it didnt make sense how he buddied up with Madara who helped with the massacre also but I didnt know how to put it together which you did very nicely here lol

[J4Ks]

Thread is kind of asking for bashing of a character.

With my own view on how Kishi made this character in the story:
1. introduction : 10
2. involvement : 8
3. screen time : 6
4. powers : 10

average = 8.5

[WhiteFang]

Thread is kind of asking for bashing of a character.

With my own view on how Kishi made this character in the story:
1. introduction : 10
2. involvement : 8
3. screen time : 6
4. powers : 10

average = 8.5

Not really trying to start anything... but why does Sasuke get a 10 for powers? They've become one-dimensional and bland as the series has progressed...

[J4Ks]

Not really trying to start anything... but why does Sasuke get a 10 for powers? They've become one-dimensional and bland as the series has progressed...

Well its not the charater in person iam rating, its how Kishi developed those tech's into the charater (not by meaning how he trained/gained his power). All tech's what he has right now are S or above ranks.

Screen-time is where I rate his training (storyline).

[Toastykins]

I'm giving Sasuke a solid 8.

When the series started, we saw Sasuke as the stereotypical "cool guy" of the series, the rival who's better than the main character in every way, a natural-born genius of a legendary clan. As the series went on, though, as Naruto grew, he seemed to have stopped growing... or in comparison, he was growing too slowly to catch up to Naruto. Their rivalry was quickly becoming one-sided, and he knew he'd never be able to match up to his brother - a man who had killed his entire family - like this. This lured him to wander the path of darkness, believing it would make him stronger... he left with Orochimaru, and would spend the next 2 and a half years training.

When Part II begins, Sasuke is absent for a while, but when he shows up, he's completely different. We can see that he's changed a lot in attitude and abilities, but he actually starts getting kind of annoying at this point. Naruto's obsession of saving him combined with his nonchalant "fuck everyone" attitude made him into a character who honestly started getting on my nerves. But I could bare with it, because it was necessary in order for the story to progress.

Eventually, he catches up to his brother, defeats him, and this is where his third big change happens, and he becomes obsessed with his revenge. This was one of his more recent phases, and his most annoying of all. His motivation was gone. His sole purpose in life fulfilled. He had nothing left to do with all this hatred he'd stored inside of him. This hatred became his life. With Madara's prodding, he became his spiteful puppet, and has now gone off the deep-end to become batshit insane.

And I think that was the point all along.

Sasuke seems to be a character who was built to become the big villain of the story in the end, and I think he plays the role quite well, though he still has his emo fits about revenge and the like. This is why I give him an 8. He's a good character, but a bit annoying. He can stand to get better.

[Mattus]

^^Good post Aniki.

I'm not gonna start a long argument with a bunch of people that clearly do not get it. Sasuke, is not even close to my favorite character. I don't enjoy his screen time but come on, most arguments here are "he sucks." "i don't like this or that" "he's dumb" "he's an idiot." That's a shitty argument and proof that Kishi's intentions have been carried out to the punctuation mark. Most people are oblivious of this and stubborn however.


Im quoting Fang on this but seriously get of the Star Wars belt. Anakin had other reasons to go evil. He was manipulated and used. Sasuke just went evil cause he wanted to kill his brother.

GTFO.
Quite honestly you should not have responded if you were gonna be this ignorant.


That is why Sasuke as a character sucks.


This is why he doesn't.
You are putting emotion into it, not logic. If you are debating a quality with your emotions, it's clear you are not analyzing it logically.


Yah but even when he had those feelings he still cared about his team and was becoming a great character that everyone liked. For a short time when he was with Taka and fought Deidara he was a great character aswell. Then he totally mistook Itachis motive and just became an idiot.

That's the fuckin point.

[Raikage's left hand]

He gets a two. He's an annoying douche, a fucking horrible villain and just acts like a whiny twelve year old who hates the world because his ipod broke.

Seriously, everytime he starts talking about his darkness and shit i can just hear in the back of my head "CRAAAAAAAAAWWLING IIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN"

[Mattus]

He gets a two. He's an annoying douche, a fucking horrible villain and just acts like a whiny twelve year old who hates the world because his ipod broke.

Seriously, everytime he starts talking about his darkness and shit i can just hear in the back of my head "CRAAAAAAAAAWWLING IIIIIN MY SKIIIIIIIIIIIIIIN"

Take notes children, this is how people are supposed to react to Sasuke.
Failure? No, looks like a huge success to me.

Plus we get some Linkin Park hate which is always fun. At least she attacks the weak songs not the "OMGTHEYARENTCRRRRAWWWWWWWLINGINNNNNTHEEIRSKIIIIIIN NNNANYMOAR!"

Next week we'll have a dramatic reading of the book "Sex and the Single Mother" read by Lisa Kudrow and a field trip to the dark side of Muffin's ego.

[Jαckums]

People really don't know how to rate without bias and character dislike.

None of you can call him 'emo' and say he's 'messed up' (as if he had a choice) until your brother kills your entire family at a young age, for you to later find out it was a big conspiracy and that the blame lays on the village you spent your whole life in/your own clan.

GTFO, please.

On the topic of 'whiny emos'; Naruto has cried more times than Sasuke, if not more than Sakura. I'd like to see how you all rate him. Although I'm guessing you could all combine your intelligent character judging abilities to come up with some excuse as to why it's okay for him to cry like a bitch and not be labeled 'whiny'. http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo105/Jackk_15/TADA/TADA.gif

Sasuke's the only villain so far that's had a fuck load of speeches from Naruto and not reverted. Anyone who rates someone like Nagato higher than Sasuke (villain-wise) is plain bias. Just an example, not saying anyone has compared them.

All I'm getting from the pro-protagonist-groupies is "good character = high rating, actual villain = low rating". What other antagonist has tried to kill their 'friends/comrades' multiple times? I have no idea what your idea of a good antagonist is, but it doesn't get much better than a mentally unstable guy who's obsessed with revenge and willing to betray his own team-mates without a second thought.

Orochimaru/Kabuto are the only characters that come close, atm.

Let me re-iterate; GTFO with your character dislike. Rate based on his character and how it fits the role he was made to play. And GTFO with your 'emo' remarks. You're all obviously emotionally insensitive/naive if you can so quickly accuse him of willingly being as he is.

10/10, bitches http://i366.photobucket.com/albums/oo105/Jackk_15/cool.png

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Rate based on his character and how it fits the role he was made to play
We do, you all to often see it as merely being bias and continue to ignore the points in favor of Sasuke

but here is an analysis of his part in the story
As a villain he is sub-par
why?
because
a/He is being eclipsed by other villains alot more compelling then he is such as the late Kisame, Deidara, Sasori and heck even Nagato and the especially current main villain Madara
His achievements since joining Akatsuki (And thus entering true villain territory) have been rather dismal and include getting smacked around by Killbee, 3 seperate Kages in succession and struggling against a 4th despite numerous powerups to his abilities before going blind from spamming his lackluster and monotonous abilties
b/As a villain he adds nothing
he just wants random destruction without clear motivation or reason
he is like a mugger, menacing but ultimately not the same as true evil

Madara on the other hand shows a true villain with a story of deception, destruction and power that reaches back to the very founding of the village and shakes the lives of all who live in it to an extent Sasukes petty plots of revenge could never hope to reach

Antagonist/ Foil
here he is average
as an antagonist he provides Naruto with motivation to continue but seeing as he lacks any real malice or purpose this is just empty
especially when you consider that Sasukes best plot is the destruction of the leaf while Madara is the enslavement of the world as well as destroying the leaf so the motivation and antagonising is more firmly on the side of Madara thus rendering the threat and motivation of Sasuke the same as a kid whining next to a parent about playing in his games

Story
Sasukes biggest problem is that for the most part he has been focused on himself
His character has had little to do with the outside main plot of world dominations etc until he became a mere underling to the bad guy
So really what has Sasuke added to this story at all?
very little
as a character his story most particularly after his abandonment of the leaf has been one that is superficial and vacuous with little connection to the epic story of the past connected to the future
it was somewhat connected to Madara but even then the whole Uchiha struggle is 10x more compelling in the light of Itachi vs Madara (Almost opposite mirrors) with Sasuke as nothing more then a peripheral consequence of such an action
His revenge was ultimately hollow
His current revenge is poorly motivated and written whilst being ultimately eclipsed by a better revenge story
His actions did little to move the plot in any way shape or form as they still do not do now

[Raikage's left hand]

Take notes children, this is how people are supposed to react to Sasuke.
Failure? No, looks like a huge success to me.

Plus we get some Linkin Park hate which is always fun. At least she attacks the weak songs not the "OMGTHEYARENTCRRRRAWWWWWWWLINGINNNNNTHEEIRSKIIIIIIN NNNANYMOAR!"

Next week we'll have a dramatic reading of the book "Sex and the Single Mother" read by Lisa Kudrow and a field trip to the dark side of Muffin's ego.

No one creates a character to annoy the reader. That's just plain idiotic. We are meant to dislike him and think his actions are horrible but that's not why i don't like him. I am not deterred by a character because they're villaneous i am deterred when they annoy me. He is just an all-round whiny faggot. Screaming at everyone as if they don't understand him and going on about how he has more darkness and is more special, jesus christ that is just plain retarded. Then as an all out villain he fails even harder. Doing evil shit because you are crazy is not good writing. It's lazy and just plain unimaginative. The entire reason he started turning evil was because he wanted to kill his brother. Then he found out his brother was good...so he decides to kill the same people his brother decided to save...in his brother's name....that doesn't even make sense. So if you think Sasuke is a good character based on the narrative then your opinion is quite frankly, worthless. There are very few characters i enjoy in the manga. If a character is not fun and i do not enjoy reading about them, then they are a shit character especially when they're one of the most prominent characters in the story.

I will say his fights are entertaining and he's still better than Naruto.


People really don't know how to rate without bias and character dislike.

Isn't that the point of these threads? Because otherwise pretty much any character who isn't a main character should get close to nothing.


All I'm getting from the pro-protagonist-groupies is "good character = high rating, actual villain = low rating". What other antagonist has tried to kill their 'friends/comrades' multiple times? I have no idea what your idea of a good antagonist is, but it doesn't get much better than a mentally unstable guy who's obsessed with revenge and willing to betray his own team-mates without a second thought.

A good antagonist usually has some method to their madness. A reason to do what they do. Sasuke reminds me of Carnage from Spider-man, insanely popular but a fucking shit house character because all they are is super strong CUUHRAAAZZZY, without any worthwhile reasoning or good writing to make up for it.

[Jαckums]

Let me point out exactly why I believe your rating was bias.


but here is an analysis of his part in the story
As a villain he is sub-par
why?
because
a/He is being eclipsed by other villains alot more compelling then he is such as the late Kisame, Deidara, Sasori and heck even Nagato and the especially current main villain Madara

Opinion.

Both Nagato and Sasori didn't even remain villains until the end. That leads me to believe you're implying a good villain is a character who reverts before dying? Answer yes and I'm dismissing your whole debate, because that defeats the purpose of 'villain'.


His achievements since joining Akatsuki (And thus entering true villain territory) have been rather dismal and include getting smacked around by Killbee, 3 seperate Kages in succession and struggling against a 4th despite numerous powerups to his abilities before going blind from spamming his lackluster and monotonous abilties

So villains always have to win fights?

Also, the part about him getting smacked down by 3 separate Kage is bullshit.

How many other characters would have survived the first Kage, let alone all three? Once again, bias. It's clearly a feat which you've chosen to ignore and even turn around due to your dislike of his character and the fact that he didn't kill any of them.


Madara on the other hand shows a true villain with a story of deception, destruction and power that reaches back to the very founding of the village and shakes the lives of all who live in it to an extent Sasukes petty plots of revenge could never hope to reach

Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self who's butthurt that he didn't win position as 1st Hokage, and has to use Sasuke to do his dirty work, and has no offensive ability other than phasing/teleportation which requires him to physically touch his opponent. His actual shinobi skill is below basic, from what we've seen. He hasn't thrown a kunai or physically evaded an attack yet. He's relied solely on his phasing jutsu.

Once again, I'm confused as to what your idea of a good antagonist is.


Antagonist/ Foil
here he is average
as an antagonist he provides Naruto with motivation to continue but seeing as he lacks any real malice or purpose this is just empty

I don't know what manga you've been reading if you think he lacks purpose.

See; end of my post.


especially when you consider that Sasukes best plot is the destruction of the leaf while Madara is the enslavement of the world as well as destroying the leaf so the motivation and antagonising is more firmly on the side of Madara thus rendering the threat and motivation of Sasuke the same as a kid whining next to a parent about playing in his games

Bullshit. Madara's goal is generic and cliche; dude, dude! WORLD DOMINATION.

Sasuke also has actual reason for what he's doing. Madara says he wants peace. Generic yet again? I think so. If I had a dollar for every time a series antagonist claimed peace was the driving motivation for their actions, I'd be rich. Been there, done that. Nagato, anyone?


Story
Sasukes biggest problem is that for the most part he has been focused on himself
His character has had little to do with the outside main plot of world dominations etc until he became a mere underling to the bad guy
So really what has Sasuke added to this story at all?
very little

Lol, gtfo. Where would the story be right now if Sasuke wasn't part of it?

I'm not even going to bother listing the various things Sasuke has impacted, (directly or indirectly) because the above is just bias rambling.


as a character his story most particularly after his abandonment of the leaf has been one that is superficial and vacuous with little connection to the epic story of the past connected to the future

Wtf are you on about? Since when does a characters actions/reasons have to be related to the 'epic story of the past'? The further down your post I read, the weaker it's getting.

Either way, it's 100% opinion that you believe a character needs such relation to be a good antagonist.


it was somewhat connected to Madara but even then the whole Uchiha struggle is 10x more compelling in the light of Itachi vs Madara (Almost opposite mirrors) with Sasuke as nothing more then a peripheral consequence of such an action
His revenge was ultimately hollow
His current revenge is poorly motivated and written whilst being ultimately eclipsed by a better revenge story

Recipe for the above quote;

Opinion
Sasuke-hate
Sasuke-hate
Sasuke-hate
Opinion
Possible poor judgement of what a 'well written' motivation for revenge is

His actions did little to move the plot in any way shape or form as they still do not do now

Get. The. Fuck. Out.

What have you been reading? Really? Sasuke has been the driving factor of the story for 90% of the series. From being Naruto's primary motivation ever since he left, to being one of the series' two main antagonists.

I'm really not going to bother elaborating, because bias and character hate is written all over your arguments. Not to mention how ridiculously stupid they got towards the end.


Isn't that the point of these threads? Because otherwise pretty much any character who isn't a main character should get close to nothing.

We're rating based on their character as a character and how well they fill the role they're intended for. Not based on what type of character we like personally. That'd just be redundant, because everyone would be giving high ratings to their favourite characters and low ratings to characters they dislike due to their personality traits, preferences in terms of abilities, etc.


A good antagonist usually has some method to their madness. A reason to do what they do. Sasuke reminds me of Carnage from Spider-man, insanely popular but a fucking shit house character because all they are is super strong CUUHRAAAZZZY, without any worthwhile reasoning or good writing to make up for it.
b/As a villain he adds nothing
he just wants random destruction without clear motivation or reason
he is like a mugger, menacing but ultimately not the same as true evil

Did I go to sleep and wake up in an alternate universe where Sasuke's entire clan wasn't killed by his own brother in a huge conspiracy driven by his clan's lust for power, with the cause of their demise landing on the village he spent his entire life in?

Either way, hypothetically, even if he did lack the purpose he has, how would that make him any less of a villain? I'd say mindless rage and lust for the death of Konoha babies is a pretty villainous role to play.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Opinion.
As is your whole post
wanna turn this into a battle of subjective opinions?

Both Nagato and Sasori didn't even remain villains until the end.
Ok
stop stop stop
Sasori wasn't a villain at the end?
since when?

That leads me to believe you're implying a good villain is a character who reverts before dying?
I cited 5 villains
You got this conclusion because 1 reverted

so no I think you are wrong there

So villains always have to win fights?
it sure helps
A villain that is constantly getting smacked around doesn't really get to be all that much of a villain
Unless they have henchman to do that (Hence some villains being the masterminds

Sasuke is Neither a winner and so inspire villainy through power
nor the mastermind and so inspire villainy through manipulation


Also, the part about him getting smacked down by 3 separate Kage is bullshit.
No
that really happened

How many other characters would have survived the first Kage, let alone all three?
Which is utterly irrelevant
Because Sasuke LOST
Miserably
and we are supposed to fear this guy?
the one that showed he couldn't beat the Kages even when he tried

No other characters are irrelevant
Because the reality is that Sasuke is not a strong villain

It's clearly a feat which you've chosen to ignore and even turn around due to your dislike of his character and the fact that he didn't kill any of them.
And had to be saved by Zetsu and Madara

Madara showed real villainy by bypassing the great Raikages punch and then essentially dismssing him as not a threat
That is what villains do

not be the guy unconscious and rescued by henchmen/sidekicks/better villains 24/7 (That would be Killerbee, Mizukage, Tsuchikage, Danzou and Kakashi/Naruto)

Madara is a pathetic shell of his former self
Unproven
Bias

who's butthurt that he didn't win position as 1st Hokage,
And look who he lost to
Has Sasuke come close to this
...............eeeeeh no

[Rest snipped as conjectural anti Madara Bias]

Once again, I'm confused as to what your idea of a good antagonist is.
Simple
A credible threat
Sasuke is not a credible threat

Bullshit. Madara's goal is generic and cliche; dude, dude! WORLD DOMINATION.

Dude Dude
REVEEEEEEENGE

Cliches cut both ways

Sasuke also has actual reason for what he's doing.
Which is?
Destroying the leaf village Itachi was trying to save in order to avenge Itachis death that he already planned and premeditated to save the leaf village and stop Madara?
Sound about it?

Madara says he wants peace. Generic yet again? I think so. If I had a dollar for every time a series antagonist claimed peace was the driving motivation for their actions, I'd be rich. Been there, done that. Nagato, anyone?
And what makes peace cliche and revenge all fresh as a concept?

Besides the whole manipulation schtick is pretty good especially when connected to the sage and the combination of the tailed beasts into some perfect host in order to unleash the power long since lost


Lol, gtfo. Where would the story be right now if Sasuke wasn't part of it?

Probably where it is now
Madara still bad guy?......yep
Stil going after Kyuubi?.......yep
Naruto still there?.........probably

oh oh Itachi might still be alive, or Deidara
Oro too
Hey Oro could still be the bad guy and lets face it
oro's plan of taking on the leaf village was 100x more threatening then Sasuke....

I'm not even going to bother listing the various things Sasuke has impacted, (directly or indirectly) because the above is just bias rambling.
No no please do

Wtf are you on about? Since when does a characters actions/reasons have to be related to the 'epic story of the past'?
Wow sorry for liking my characters...you know....connected TO THE PLOT in some way

Either way, it's 100% opinion that you believe a character needs such relation to be a good antagonist.
I hear he is supposed to be one of the villains
so being part of the plot helps

Possible poor judgement of what a 'well written' motivation for revenge is
Spell ut his motivation
go on
See how "Well written" it is in full
Because his motivation involves
a/Believing the main villain without question
b/Ignoring the main villain AS THE MAIN VILLAIN
c/Doing the opposite of what his revenge was supposed to motivate (Ie Itachis "plan")

Sasuke has been the driving factor of the story for 90% of the series.
Apart from a vague "Get Sasuke back" subplot
what has he motivated?

I'm really not going to bother elaborating, because bias and character hate is written all over your arguments.
Why is it we opposed to Sasuke are all "biased" as Sasuke can seemingly do no wrong
Everything he does is magically okay because he had a rough childhood or sumthin?

And when he does something irrational, stupid or just plain ol incomprehensible it is awesome mystery and storytelling rather then just cliche poured on hack?
Perhaps if we compared Sasuke to other Antagonists we can see just how he measures up as a "Villain"?

[cursedneji18]

The entire reason he started turning evil was because he wanted to kill his brother. Then he found out his brother was good...so he decides to kill the same people his brother decided to save...in his brother's name....that doesn't even make sense.

exactly! sasuke said he was going to kill konoha for itachi now. the same village itachis risked his life and died to protect. thats basically spitting on his grave yet sasuke says its for him. hes just a immature brat who doesnt know what he wants and is acting ooc for the simple reason he supposed to be tactical yet his logic doesnt make any sense. that doesnt make a good villain. hes just a major fail. his story about avenging his clan is now old and stale the only reason its still going on is so he can fight naruto at the end anyone who thinks its still interesting at all needs to research proper storytelling. for that he gets a 1. and for you sasuke fan boys my opinion has reasoning just like yours does so dont give me "your just being biased" bs.

[sproxy]

Lol I like how everyone who dislikes someone's favorite character has to be biased even if they can come up with a plethora of reasons why they dont like that character. I mean no everyone who hates/dislikes Sasuke has to be biased because Sasuke is cool...

I mean lets look past the fact that he wanted revenge for his clan/family then when he gets it he feels bad for his brother because the man who helped kill your clan/family says he was a caring brother and now teams up with the guy who initially helped kill his clan/family and even told him that he helped....

Lets also look past the fact that Sasuke's new fighting style is a knock off from another character, but spams it more often. And that his initial way of fighting which showed his smarts and how great of a fighter he was is now primarily a stand there and fire fighter...

So yeah, everyone who dislikes him has to be biased because he's my favorite character http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii46/Kalash_Nikov/itachionster_Layer7.gif

:roll

====================

But even with all that aside, I dont see how someone is wrong or biased just because they personally dislike a character. Its personal preference. But oh well cus I guess the term "Haters gonna hate" is true afterall =O

[himura~]

SPOILERS
thanks.
-----
EDIT: Sasuke gets a seven!

I personally have been so-so with his character recently since he's been..you know. a deranged boy who, it seems like, doesn't know what to think anymore so just goes with the annihilation of the microcosm that Naruto calls home. i'd assume it's pretty radical when you must think about all he's gone through; he had it all, lost it all, avenged it all, and found out that he had it all wrong, too. Therefore I feel as if THAT part of his mindset is a little bit justifiable, the emoness and such, according to his personality. I don't LIKE it, I just feel like it isn't something to hate on.

I thoroughly enjoyed his character in part I and in the pre-Madara portions of part II. I liked that he was moderately mature, had a goal in mind (retarded as it was), and cared about his teammates despite being apathetic and such. Oh and I also liked his casual approach to everything back in the day, too. it was a nice contrast from Naruto and his buoyant personality.

What I dislike about his personality most is his arrogance. I just don't like cocky characters, i find it embarrassing.

Oh and I also liked his fighting style, for the little taijutsu he used, <3333 He was always combative and stuff but recently he's sucked. which. you know. sucks.

And now I don't find him as interesting anymore because I feel like he's become bland. to me personally. dull and careless and overpowered. I don't know what defines a good villain but this is my personal preference so yeah.
--
EDITII:

GTFO.
Quite honestly you should not have responded if you were gonna be this ignorant.
I chuckled=)

[Water Lilly]

D: Don't say that. And I mean it genuinely. We have our reasons to dislike him just like you may have yours to like him. So it shouldn't be labeled as "lolhaters". It's a matter of perspective, really. But by no means is it a bash-fest or something. You're mistaken.
And actually, liking/disliking a character is all about personal taste, first of all. And they differ all the time.

@KR: ROFL. You are so right, though. Sasuke first had a superiority complex, which digressed into a horrid kind of inferiority complex? Wtf? But still, he became dumber and dumber as time has passed. And I am not talking about battle smarts. [though they have also reached pathetic levels lately, with his MS-spam.] In general Sasuke is no longer cool/stylish. He is immature/stupid. Because that is what you have to be to attack a freakin' Kage Summit all on your own. And I really don't like immature punks who're full of themselves, and also don't have anything to show for it. Had it not been for Madara, he would've been melted alive.

I don't know on what grounds Sasuke is called a 'good' villain? He is just a silly lost child, with no clue of what he actually wants. He lacks planning as well, as of late. And he's never really stood up to his tall claims, either. Except maybe with Danzo. He is plot-less and thoughtless. So he isn't all entertaining to watch, for me anyways. He is just a tool, Madara's puppet.

#Edit: Who gave Sauce a one? :lmao:
#Edit 2: Nvm, I saw. xP
#Edit 3: I wish he comments in this thread. xDDD

It's not a bash fest yet and I hope it's not going to become but this has happened loads of times before.If somebody calls a certain character a fucking emo bitch I take that as bashing.And there has been plenty of that in the past.
I feel that threads like this and similar are like ticking time bombs.
There is a difference between expressing your negative opinion and bashing.

[Dreamer]

Is Sasuke not a "fucking emo bitch" regardless of whether you think he's a good character or not?

I'm not a Sasuke hater, but his character does consists of a malformed "Everyone is against me!" attitude.

[KyubiiRage]

GTFO.
Quite honestly you should not have responded if you were gonna be this ignorant.

Look who's talking!


This is why he doesn't.
You are putting emotion into it, not logic. If you are debating a quality with your emotions, it's clear you are not analyzing it logically.

No you are putting emotions into this. He wants to kill an entire village after he finds out that his brother wanted to protect that same village so much that he was willing to kill his clan.

I would understand if he wanted to kill the elders but the entire village?

On top of that he is working with the person (Madara) who is the most guilty out of everyone for the destruction of the Uchiha.


Thats the fuckin point.

No thats not the "fuckin point". Kishi intended for Sasuke to be an evil character but to make him into a villain this way? That is just bad writing and that is why Sasuke recieves a 1.

[cursedneji18]

Kishi intended for Sasuke to be an evil character but to make him into a villain this way? That is just bad writing and that is why Sasuke recieves a 1.

also sasuke of course is going to be reverted by naruto for plot reasons and the thing is people that are so demented they would kill people that had nothing to do with it are too far gone to be changed and if sasuke truly was this demented in real life wouldnt he of killed animals when he was a child or talked to inanimate objects and threaten them? like kimimaro with that flower. sasuke showed no signs of his demented nature going through the struggle before.. thats just bad writing.

[Jαckums]

Sorry about cutting out a lot of your post. I have my preliminary exams right now, and I can't be bothered replying to a lot of your points which are based primarily on opinion.


Ok
stop stop stop
Sasori wasn't a villain at the end?
since when?

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-275-page-17.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-275-page-18.html


it sure helps
A villain that is constantly getting smacked around doesn't really get to be all that much of a villain
Unless they have henchman to do that (Hence some villains being the masterminds

Yet Deidara, Sasori and Kisame all got smacked down, which were some apparent 'good' villains you listed.

You're clearly just making these points because they go against Sasuke, yet trying to justify them when it comes to other characters.


Sasuke is Neither a winner and so inspire villainy through power
nor the mastermind and so inspire villainy through manipulation

You're saying his power isn't top-tier in the series?

I'd say; Sasuke is powerful and insane and so inspire villainy through insanity and power hax.


Which is utterly irrelevant
Because Sasuke LOST
Miserably
and we are supposed to fear this guy?
the one that showed he couldn't beat the Kages even when he tried

Bullshit. It's completely relevant because anyone would have lost miserably in that situation.


No other characters are irrelevant
Because the reality is that Sasuke is not a strong villain

I hope you don't mean power-wise..

Either way; opinion.


And had to be saved by Zetsu and Madara

He survived longer than almost any other character would have. Stop ignoring that.

And stop drinking the haterade. Makes your arguments look fairly pathetic.


Madara showed real villainy by bypassing the great Raikages punch and then essentially dismssing him as not a threat
That is what villains do

Lol, your arguments are ridiculous. No-one can hit Madara because he's intangible.

It wasn't a feat at all. He was simply untouchable, as he always is in battle.


not be the guy unconscious and rescued by henchmen/sidekicks/better villains 24/7 (That would be Killerbee, Mizukage, Tsuchikage, Danzou and Kakashi/Naruto)

Once again, he survived longer than majority of the series' other characters would have.

Your points relating the Kage gauntlet are moot, because of the simple fact that it wasn't a weakener of his character at all. In fact, it was more of a feat, seeing as hey, who else could have lasted that long?

I could think of only 2 or 3.


[Rest snipped as conjectural anti Madara Bias]

If we're cutting out parts of posts now due to anti-character bias, I may has well snip your entire post, because the whole thing is anti-sasuke bias b/s.


Simple
A credible threat
Sasuke is not a credible threat

Sasuke's not a credible threat?

You're making the bias behind your false arguments so obvious I don't even have to point them out.


Which is?
Destroying the leaf village Itachi was trying to save in order to avenge Itachis death that he already planned and premeditated to save the leaf village and stop Madara?
Sound about it?

I rarely do this, but.. *facepalm*

If he'd followed Itachi's plan he wouldn't be an antagonist. Plus there's the fact that despite what Itachi wanted, the village was still responsible for his clan's death. Which is why he wants to destroy it. Durrrrr.


Besides the whole manipulation schtick is pretty good especially when connected to the sage and the combination of the tailed beasts into some perfect host in order to unleash the power long since lost

So some ultimate power obtained through the retrieving of a bunch of smaller powerful components to achieve a false peace is original? I don't see the creativity in that, sorry.


Wow sorry for liking my characters...you know....connected TO THE PLOT in some way

Sasuke is the plot of the manga.

Why do you think you haters are always complaining that it's centered around him too much?


Apart from a vague "Get Sasuke back" subplot
what has he motivated?

LOL. Oh god, how much more ignorant can you get.

I mean, the entire manga has been about getting Sasuke back ever since he left.


Everything he does is magically okay because he had a rough childhood or sumthin?

You're the most emotionally insensitive, uneducated and naive person I have ever encountered on a forum.

'A rough childhood or sumthin'? Seriously?

Also, when did I say it was 'okay'? His actions aren't meant to be just. That's the point of 'villain' and 'antagonist'.


And when he does something irrational, stupid or just plain ol incomprehensible it is awesome mystery and storytelling rather then just cliche poured on hack?
Perhaps if we compared Sasuke to other Antagonists we can see just how he measures up as a "Villain"?

Sure, let's make a Sasuke bash-fest, because you know that's exactly how it will turn out, due to the fact that 90% of TN are Sasuke-haters, and they try pass off their bias hate as flaws in his character.


Lol I like how everyone who dislikes someone's favorite character has to be biased even if they can come up with a plethora of reasons why they dont like that character. I mean no everyone who hates/dislikes Sasuke has to be biased because Sasuke is cool...

No, go ahead and quote me directly.

Anyway, I just know it's not a coincidence that everyone giving him ridiculously low ratings are mass haters.

And when did I say people had no reasons? Of course you have reasons to be drinkin' the haterade, as your 'crowd' tends to do. My point was that's not the point of this thread. Are we not rating based on the role each character was made for and how they fulfill it? As I said in my previous post, rating based on our personal like of a character would be redundant, because everyone would just be giving high ratings to their favourite characters based on preference to abilities, personality traits, etc.


But even with all that aside, I dont see how someone is wrong or biased just because they personally dislike a character. Its personal preference. But oh well cus I guess the term "Haters gonna hate" is true afterall =O

Did you just own yourself?

I mean, I know you're a Sasuke hater, but you didn't have to go out there and state it like that. I'm fine with you admitting it, it was just a surprise someone with an ego like yours would do such a thing.

/the irony that you just quoted "haters gonna hate"

[WhiteFang]

I think first and foremost, everyone needs to understand that character like/dislike is infact OPINION. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing factual about it.

Lol I like how everyone who dislikes someone's favorite character has to be biased even if they can come up with a plethora of reasons why they dont like that character. I mean no everyone who hates/dislikes Sasuke has to be biased because Sasuke is cool...

I mean lets look past the fact that he wanted revenge for his clan/family then when he gets it he feels bad for his brother because the man who helped kill your clan/family says he was a caring brother and now teams up with the guy who initially helped kill his clan/family and even told him that he helped....

Lets also look past the fact that Sasuke's new fighting style is a knock off from another character, but spams it more often. And that his initial way of fighting which showed his smarts and how great of a fighter he was is now primarily a stand there and fire fighter...

So yeah, everyone who dislikes him has to be biased because he's my favorite character http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii46/Kalash_Nikov/itachionster_Layer7.gif

:roll

====================

But even with all that aside, I dont see how someone is wrong or biased just because they personally dislike a character. Its personal preference. But oh well cus I guess the term "Haters gonna hate" is true afterall =O
If I could rep you again...

Don't want to start a huge debate, so I'll just address a few main points:

People really don't know how to rate without bias and character dislike.
This sounds very hypocritical when you rate in a thread saying "Do not want."


None of you can call him 'emo' and say he's 'messed up' (as if he had a choice) until your brother kills your entire family at a young age, for you to later find out it was a big conspiracy and that the blame lays on the village you spent your whole life in/your own clan.

GTFO, please.
Actually, if you've noticed, everyone understands his messed up, cold and apathetic character. The problem is:
After. The. Madara. Cave. Talk.
I mean, Adam explained it best in his opening post: Sasuke finds out Itachi's true purpose. We get his brain explosion. Then he proceeds to decide like some sort of retarded three year old that... he'll destroy Konoha. All this when he already knows, told by the SAME damn main villain person who he's chosen to believe that he helped slaughter his clan and that the entire thing was Itachi's choice and it was his purpose of life as well. Wtf? Yeah, if I was in Sasuke's shoes, I'd actually hold up and think before:
a. Believing a shady idiot in a cave after a phenomenal battle.
^This common sense Sasuke had been shown to be... capable of. He was never documented as mentally deranged and incapable to this extent.

I would actually want to verify facts before I went on a hate spree. Especially considering what all I'd gone through with my comrades previously, in Konoha. And in all honesty, I would've lunged on Madara and failed. Because at that instant a very large part of what would've been ringing in my head would be: this bastard helped slaughter my family. And he's got the freakin' guts to admit it to my face, dammit. And what does Sasuke do? Become his puppet. Wow.

You see, this is the bad writing in play. Kishi keeps pulling stuff out of nowhere, which is contrary to the actual character development that has taken place.


All I'm getting from the pro-protagonist-groupies is "good character = high rating, actual villain = low rating". What other antagonist has tried to kill their 'friends/comrades' multiple times? I have no idea what your idea of a good antagonist is, but it doesn't get much better than a mentally unstable guy who's obsessed with revenge and willing to betray his own team-mates without a second thought.
I think people with damaged cognitive abilities and no sense at all are an insult to the art that is being a villain. Sasuke is there for the lulz and to have his pathetic self saved by Naruto. He's no villain. He's just mentally unstable and has a load of powers stuffed into him. Not to mention, the way he has been converted into what he is, as I've explained above, is plain pathetic writing.


Orochimaru/Kabuto are the only characters that come close, atm.
Sasuke is nowhere in their league lol. Oro disgusts me, personally. And it's why I'd give him a high rating. His plans and motives and reasons and his methods: they truly creep out any sensitive person and that's what being a villain is all about.
Sasuke is... lol. He's just a pitiable lost child. He doesn't exactly have defined intentions to harm people. He just kills on impulse, with some skewed thought strung here and there. He needs... help. That's hardly a villain.


Let me re-iterate; GTFO with your character dislike. Rate based on his character and how it fits the role he was made to play. And GTFO with your 'emo' remarks. You're all obviously emotionally insensitive/naive if you can so quickly accuse him of willingly being as he is.

The bolded part is the entire problem. He wasn't made that way. All of his character development negates that. Sasuke was never really shown to be a stupid fool who does things unthinkingly. No matter how obsessed with revenge and hate, he was capable of always thinking: read entire confrontation against Itachi. Remember how he refused to believe everything Itachi was telling him? He did say Madara was on his hit list, but... wait. He isn't anymore. Though Madara told him on his face that he slaughtered his clan. Kishi just does whatever he wants with Sasuke to just chug him along wherever. It's a poorly directed show to get to the main confrontation b/w Sasuke and Naruto. Face it: Kishi has done a pathetic job writing Sasuke's pseudo-villain bull. You don't admit that, you're equally biased as well.

[sproxy]

No, go ahead and quote me directly.

Anyway, I just know it's not a coincidence that everyone giving him ridiculously low ratings are mass haters.

And when did I say people had no reasons? Of course you have reasons to be drinkin' the haterade, as your 'crowd' tends to do. My point was that's not the point of this thread. Are we not rating based on the role each character was made for and how they fulfill it? As I said in my previous post, rating based on our personal like of a character would be redundant, because everyone would just be giving high ratings to their favourite characters based on preference to abilities, personality traits, etc.
Because your still assuming that peoples basing their opinion strictly on their like or dislike and not on how pathetic of a path his character has taken.

Pretty much everyone who has posted gave their reason why they dont like Sasuke. Meaning there was more than personal hate/love. I think Sasuke's whole story is redundant and makes next to no sense. He has teamed up with the man who helped kill his clan that he originally set out to avenge. That isnt personal bias to why I dont like him. Im not saying I dont like him because he's ugly. Nor has anyone else. Everyone gave a reason and thats their opinion.


Did you just own yourself?

I mean, I know you're a Sasuke hater, but you didn't have to go out there and state it like that. I'm fine with you admitting it, it was just a surprise someone with an ego like yours would do such a thing.

/the irony that you just quoted "haters gonna hate"
Actually I merely pointed out that your a hater on people who dislike Sasuke (oddly enough your favorite character). And everyone gave their opinion and reason why yet you say "No you just dont like him". Thats false and merely you drinking your own batch of haterade that you accuse others of drinking.

/The irony that you have to tell everyone their opinions are wrong lol (obviously because Sasuke is your favorite character)


I think first and foremost, everyone needs to understand that character like/dislike is infact OPINION. Nothing more, nothing less. There is nothing factual about it.

Lol I like how everyone who dislikes someone's favorite character has to be biased even if they can come up with a plethora of reasons why they dont like that character. I mean no everyone who hates/dislikes Sasuke has to be biased because Sasuke is cool...

I mean lets look past the fact that he wanted revenge for his clan/family then when he gets it he feels bad for his brother because the man who helped kill your clan/family says he was a caring brother and now teams up with the guy who initially helped kill his clan/family and even told him that he helped....

Lets also look past the fact that Sasuke's new fighting style is a knock off from another character, but spams it more often. And that his initial way of fighting which showed his smarts and how great of a fighter he was is now primarily a stand there and fire fighter...

So yeah, everyone who dislikes him has to be biased because he's my favorite character http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii46/Kalash_Nikov/itachionster_Layer7.gif

:roll

====================

But even with all that aside, I dont see how someone is wrong or biased just because they personally dislike a character. Its personal preference. But oh well cus I guess the term "Haters gonna hate" is true afterall =O
If I could rep you again...


Don't want to start a huge debate, so I'll just address a few main points:

People really don't know how to rate without bias and character dislike.
This sounds very hypocritical when you rate in a thread saying "Do not want."


None of you can call him 'emo' and say he's 'messed up' (as if he had a choice) until your brother kills your entire family at a young age, for you to later find out it was a big conspiracy and that the blame lays on the village you spent your whole life in/your own clan.

GTFO, please.
Actually, if you've noticed, everyone understands his messed up, cold and apathetic character. The problem is:
After. The. Madara. Cave. Talk.
I mean, Adam explained it best in his opening post: Sasuke finds out Itachi's true purpose. We get his brain explosion. Then he proceeds to decide like some sort of retarded three year old that... he'll destroy Konoha. All this when he already knows, told by the SAME damn main villain person who he's chosen to believe that he helped slaughter his clan and that the entire thing was Itachi's choice and it was his purpose of life as well. Wtf? Yeah, if I was in Sasuke's shoes, I'd actually hold up and think before:
a. Believing a shady idiot in a cave after a phenomenal battle.
^This common sense Sasuke had been shown to be... capable of. He was never documented as mentally deranged and incapable to this extent.

I would actually want to verify facts before I went on a hate spree. Especially considering what all I'd gone through with my comrades previously, in Konoha. And in all honesty, I would've lunged on Madara and failed. Because at that instant a very large part of what would've been ringing in my head would be: this bastard helped slaughter my family. And he's got the freakin' guts to admit it to my face, dammit. And what does Sasuke do? Become his puppet. Wow.

You see, this is the bad writing in play. Kishi keeps pulling stuff out of nowhere, which is contrary to the actual character development that has taken place.


All I'm getting from the pro-protagonist-groupies is "good character = high rating, actual villain = low rating". What other antagonist has tried to kill their 'friends/comrades' multiple times? I have no idea what your idea of a good antagonist is, but it doesn't get much better than a mentally unstable guy who's obsessed with revenge and willing to betray his own team-mates without a second thought.
I think people with damaged cognitive abilities and no sense at all are an insult to the art that is being a villain. Sasuke is there for the lulz and to have his pathetic self saved by Naruto. He's no villain. He's just mentally unstable and has a load of powers stuffed into him. Not to mention, the way he has been converted into what he is, as I've explained above, is plain pathetic writing.


Orochimaru/Kabuto are the only characters that come close, atm.
Sasuke is nowhere in their league lol. Oro disgusts me, personally. And it's why I'd give him a high rating. His plans and motives and reasons and his methods: they truly creep out any sensitive person and that's what being a villain is all about.
Sasuke is... lol. He's just a pitiable lost child. He doesn't exactly have defined intentions to harm people. He just kills on impulse, with some skewed thought strung here and there. He needs... help. That's hardly a villain.


Let me re-iterate; GTFO with your character dislike. Rate based on his character and how it fits the role he was made to play. And GTFO with your 'emo' remarks. You're all obviously emotionally insensitive/naive if you can so quickly accuse him of willingly being as he is.

The bolded part is the entire problem. He wasn't made that way. All of his character development negates that. Sasuke was never really shown to be a stupid fool who does things unthinkingly. No matter how obsessed with revenge and hate, he was capable of always thinking: read entire confrontation against Itachi. Remember how he refused to believe everything Itachi was telling him? He did say Madara was on his hit list, but... wait. He isn't anymore. Though Madara told him on his face that he slaughtered his clan. Kishi just does whatever he wants with Sasuke to just chug him along wherever. It's a poorly directed show to get to the main confrontation b/w Sasuke and Naruto. Face it: Kishi has done a pathetic job writing Sasuke's pseudo-villain bull. You don't admit that, you're equally biased as well.
Nice post, my thoughts and what appears to be lots of other peoples same thought summed up in a nicely worded post.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-275-page-17.html
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-275-page-18.html
Sigh
sasori was not good
This is not really proof he reverted at all you know that
We have the idea he may have
but when just before that he had done this
http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-274-page-16.html
doesn't really scream good guy

Yet Deidara, Sasori and Kisame all got smacked down, which were some apparent 'good' villains you listed.
Deidara was fighting people when he had no arms left
That is badass for a villain on top of his simple love of Destruction (Or art)
Plus don't forget an Epic Death

Sasori
After demolishing Kankuro he had the epic puppet mastery battle which showed all the intricacies of the puppetry arts
Very nice

Kisame
I mean c'mon he is freaken Kisame probably the best of the minor Villains
Evil and loving it
Powerful and even very crafty
Death was a letdown but hey still good

Has Sasuke come close to these in Akatsuki?
Every fight he has been either pummeled or barely winning (Or in his best case winning through his opponent being an idiot)

You're clearly just making these points because they go against Sasuke, yet trying to justify them when it comes to other characters.
No because these Characters were actually credible in their roles


You're saying his power isn't top-tier in the series?
Power
You are taking it too literally
Power as in the power of a villain
The power to kill countless people
Inspire a world to war
Drag down the heros into pits of Despair
Manipulate even the best into his plan

THAT kind of Power
The kind of power Sasuke does not have

Bullshit. It's completely relevant because anyone would have lost miserably in that situation.
Raikage was made to look weak beside Madara
Zetsu took down the Mizukage in seconds
and Madara casually thwarted the Tsuchikage

Again
Sasuke took on the stronger characters
and Lost

Even Kilerbee would have KILLED him down of not for Juugo lets not forget that

He survived longer than almost any other character would have. Stop ignoring that.
If the bad Guy can't even take on a person who is not the main Protagonist then that doesn't inspire villainy

No-one can hit Madara because he's intangible.
Minato, Konan and Torune(Sp? or was it Mifune?)....Danzous henchman...the bug guy

Madara has been hit before but unlike Sasuke he always rises up and does something to make him look more badass
Konan-Prevent her glorious suicide
Minato-Suicide
Henchy-Sucked away forever lol


It wasn't a feat at all. He was simply untouchable, as he always is in battle.
Wrong

Your points relating the Kage gauntlet are moot, because of the simple fact that it wasn't a weakener of his character at all. In fact, it was more of a feat, seeing as hey, who else could have lasted that long?
How many other chracters would have lost?
most of them
just...like....Sasuke

Sasuke's not a credible threat?
Not on his own
In the Hands of Madara then maybe
But on his own he is simply just not credible
Why?
Because he has no purpose other then random destruction for the sake of it

If he'd followed Itachi's plan he wouldn't be an antagonist.
Which invalidates the stupidity of doing this all for Itachi....how?

Plus there's the fact that despite what Itachi wanted, the village was still responsible for his clan's death. Which is why he wants to destroy it. Durrrrr.
1/Clan began to segrergate itself from the village
Note we were never actually given any proof that their suspicions of the leaf were anything more then paranoia
2/Itachi goes to stop the clan to prevent Civil war at the behest of the elders
3/Itachi recruits Madara to help kill the clan
4/Plan taken out without the vilages knowledge and made to look like a random act of violence

Tell me
How is it reasonable to destroy the village according to this?

So some ultimate power obtained through the retrieving of a bunch of smaller powerful components to achieve a false peace is original? I don't see the creativity in that, sorry.
Depends how you see it
I like it because of the whole demon idea (Each one unique in it's own way) and so we have various connections to Japanese mythologies
And the fact that at the moment we aren't even sure what the plan is because the bad guy is very good at adding layers to his plan to hide it so we can't be sure the demons are even needed

Sasuke is the plot of the manga.
The current main plot is Juubi, Moons Eye Plan and the Prophecy IIRC

Sasukes Revenge is a side plot with little consequence to the main plot
Return Sasuke is a background lot which is tacked on to the main plot


Why do you think you haters are always complaining that it's centered around him too much?
Because it is centered around HIM and not the PLOT

At best he has a vague connection to the Prophecy aspect as well but seeing as how that is currently ambiguous I would say it has less weight
Nor does it suddenly make im a good character until he steps up and does something


I mean, the entire manga has been about getting Sasuke back ever since he left.
So the Pein identity, Leaf Destruction, Kage Rescue, Moons Eye plan, World War, Sage Training, Hidan/Kakuzu plots were all about Sasuke?

No
Getting Sasuke back was the second plot of the post skip
Since then it has never held a prominant part of the plot and most motivation has come from Nagato and Madara


You're the most emotionally insensitive, uneducated and naive person I have ever encountered on a forum.

'A rough childhood or sumthin'? Seriously?
Yes
Call it insensitive but then again this is a manga in which the Character of Sasuke is hardly unique in the case of his childhood
Naruto, Nagato and Gaara all share similar backgrounds
And other characters have gone thrugh as much pain and hardship

Yet Sasuke is given a free pass for his
But there are other characters out there with similar pasts and the are better written then Sasuke with far more believable rationalisations for their actions

Also, when did I say it was 'okay'? His actions aren't meant to be just. That's the point of 'villain' and 'antagonist'.
Okay
as in justified and/or explained
But his current stupidity in the face of everything either makes him a bad character
and no not bad as in villain
bad as in I rated him a 1 bad

and they try pass off their bias hate as flaws in his character.
Fine then let me ask you to play devils advocate
if you do this then i will do the same
List all the Flaws in Sasuke
Become a hater for one section and I will become a fanboy
Lets see how we do?
Perhaps if we truly passed the bounds of hatred we could see more clearly
Deal?

[Water Lilly]

Is Sasuke not a "fucking emo bitch" regardless of whether you think he's a good character or not?

I'm not a Sasuke hater, but his character does consists of a malformed "Everyone is against me!" attitude.

My point is that there is a different way of expressing opinion.Insulting like that is bashing.That's why I said a thread like this could turn into a bash fest.

[himura~]

=____________________________________________=
spoiler tags..please. and arigato .___.

[sproxy]

I know its your thread himura~ so Im not arguing or anything, Im curious though why you want spoiler tags? I mean this is the bookstore referring to the manga so Im curious is all.

[MinatoNamikaze]

gave sasuke a 9.

I know many people are going to have biased opinions based on the fact that they beleive sasuke is a wussy, crybaby, pussy, etc etc. And sure that may be true now, but this isint about whether or not u like him. Its about how good his is as a character. HE is the apitamy of a fallen hero. Cute innocent sasuke, caught up in the flow of destiny, gets thrown into a world of hatred and revenge focused on one person, neglecting his home town and its people. Then after finding out the secdon tragic truth of his life, he then puts all his energy into destroying the place he and his family once called home. Its him and his rock solid heart against the world.

Not to mention he is on a crash course with the brightest person in the manga, the apitamy of all that is good.

Kishi really has outdone himself with sasuke.


But ill be honest, the best version of sasuke was post skip until after he beat itachi. He was cold, but there was still a bit of light in his heart. Now hes just gone psycho. But hey, can anyone really say theyd be normal in his situation?

[himura~]

^i kind of concur even though I am guilty of bias.

Im curious though why you want spoiler tags? I mean this is the bookstore referring to the manga so Im curious is all.
It isn't anything about spoilers, no, it's just that those blocks of text with argued opinions <___< are kind of a turnoff in an environment that is about an EXPRESSING of opinions with reason and such. plus..i think it just keeps it more organized i guess. yeah it's all for organizatin's sake. oh and btdubs I think bias with backup is okay to a certain degree, so keep it up? edit: it's okay if someone has different opinions than you. let others like what you dislike or vice versa.

meh.
i'll pick a less controversial character next time=)
i hope that clears things up/is ok with you?=P

[WhiteFang]

Oh, no no no! You must continue these controversial choices, dear. We thrive on them. ;) That said, I understand your point about huge blocks of text looking intimidating to an outsider. So I shall spoiler tag the excessively long stuff. Cool?

[KyubiiRage]

^^ Totally agree!


gave sasuke a 9.

I know many people are going to have biased opinions based on the fact that they beleive sasuke is a wussy, crybaby, pussy, etc etc. And sure that may be true now, but this isint about whether or not u like him. Its about how good his is as a character. HE is the apitamy of a fallen hero. Cute innocent sasuke, caught up in the flow of destiny, gets thrown into a world of hatred and revenge focused on one person, neglecting his home town and its people. Then after finding out the secdon tragic truth of his life, he then puts all his energy into destroying the place he and his family once called home. Its him and his rock solid heart against the world.

Not to mention he is on a crash course with the brightest person in the manga, the apitamy of all that is good.

Kishi really has outdone himself with sasuke.


But ill be honest, the best version of sasuke was post skip until after he beat itachi. He was cold, but there was still a bit of light in his heart. Now hes just gone psycho. But hey, can anyone really say theyd be normal in his situation?

Wait wait wait...... who is the brightest character in the manga?

[MinatoNamikaze]

^^ Totally agree!



Wait wait wait...... who is the brightest character in the manga?

that would be the main character.................:eek:

[sproxy]

^i kind of concur even though I am guilty of bias.

It isn't anything about spoilers, no, it's just that those blocks of text with argued opinions <___< are kind of a turnoff in an environment that is about an EXPRESSING of opinions with reason and such. plus..i think it just keeps it more organized i guess. yeah it's all for organizatin's sake. oh and btdubs I think bias with backup is okay to a certain degree, so keep it up? edit: it's okay if someone has different opinions than you. let others like what you dislike or vice versa.

meh.
i'll pick a less controversial character next time=)
i hope that clears things up/is ok with you?=P
Oh like I said I was curious. I wasnt asking trying to say your wrong or anything. I was just curious as to why you wanted spoilers, I didnt know you wanted them for organizational purposes xD sorry for any misunderstanding, was only curiosity is all xD

[NPS]

i gave him a five. i liked him better when he was the cunning and tactical both in personality and fighting style. Now hes just a crazy dumbass

[Mattus]

So yeah, everyone who dislikes him has to be biased because he's my favorite character http://i261.photobucket.com/albums/ii46/Kalash_Nikov/itachionster_Layer7.gif

1. Best smiley ever.
2. The thing is, it's not like you when you analyzed him. Most of the time it's "he's dumb" or "he's illogical", not actually analyzing the character, just saying the person's opinion of character and saying that's why he's an awful character.

---------- Post added at 02:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:11 PM ----------


Look who's talking!

The one saying you're biased "argument" is not fact because of how much emotion and opinion you are putting into a critical analysis? Yeah, how dumb am I. The answer is quite but in this scenario no, I'm sorry.


No you are putting emotions into this. He wants to kill an entire village after he finds out that his brother wanted to protect that same village so much that he was willing to kill his clan.

If I were to put emotion into this I would be on the same page as Fang. But I'm not putting emotion into it because there's no point in debating if you're just going to be a biased idiot about things. Regardless of if you are right or not, that's just awful debating if you can't separate logic with opinion. Which btw, reminding you. I would give Sasuke a 5 if I were to put opinion/emotion into it. I gave him a 9 however.

I would understand if he wanted to kill the elders but the entire village?


No thats not the "fuckin point". Kishi intended for Sasuke to be an evil character but to make him into a villain this way? That is just bad writing and that is why Sasuke recieves a 1.

It's not bad writing.
Bleach is bad writing.
Sasuke's fall was both illogical and extreme...you all clearly hate him, and again, that is the point. If you aren't analyzing him and just shooting the bull, then yeah, clearly he is a good character because he makes you feel all these emotions.

If you can't come up with a decent argument on why he is bad, clearly emotion is being put into it, therefore, he cannot be bad.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

then yeah, clearly he is a good character because he makes you feel all these emotions.
and characters make people feel just as much emotion as well written ones

This is because emotions are essential to the depth of a character
Characters need to work on that emotional level and preferrrably (not always the case depending on the show) on an intellectual level as well

Sasuke does not perfrom on the intellectual level because he constantly comes off as being an illogically written character whos actions have no intellectual base or justification
He does not work on the emotional level either as for many he generates nothing but negative emotions, and not in a good way
A good villain stimulates our need for a person to be bad, Sasuke is not that kind of guy and we just want him gone so we can get to the more emotionally and intellectually stimulating characters

If you can't come up with a decent argument on why he is bad, clearly emotion is being put into it, therefore, he cannot be bad.
Utter codswhallop
The fact that you would willingly blind one of your primary judgements of a character shows you are trying to come off as superior to support your own bias
Emotion is one of the central aspects of any medium
You do not watch Naruto purely analysed from a logical perspective
You don't watch any show from a purely logical perspective
Logic is firmly tied to peoples emotions and in this sense a good character should stimulate both equally well

Why do you think that Villains like Darth Vader, Viscious (Cowboy Bebop), Joker are highly thought of? Because they stimlate people not only on an intellectual level but an emotional one as well

Reason on it's own has no motivating factors so to look at it from a stance of pure logic would see you take no position of all

[Mattus]

Sasuke does not perfrom on the intellectual level because he constantly comes off as being an illogically written character whos actions have no intellectual base or justification
He does not work on the emotional level either as for many he generates nothing but negative emotions, and not in a good way
A good villain stimulates our need for a person to be bad, Sasuke is not that kind of guy and we just want him gone so we can get to the more emotionally and intellectually stimulating characters

Anikan Skywalker in Episode 3 was an emotionally and intellectually stimulating character? No, he was corrupted and fell. Villains aren't always logical, nor are they able to register with everyone on an emotional level.
As I've said so many times that a broken record would be insulted by me comparing myself to it but "that's the fuckin' point."


The fact that you would willingly blind one of your primary judgements of a character shows you are trying to come off as superior to support your own bias

The bias of that? That I like Sasuke? No, how about that instead of going on about bullshit, actually analyze the character.


Emotion is one of the central aspects of any medium
You do not watch Naruto purely analysed from a logical perspective
You don't watch any show from a purely logical perspective
Logic is firmly tied to peoples emotions and in this sense a good character should stimulate both equally well


Logic and emotions are absolutely not firmly tied.


Why do you think that Villains like Darth Vader, Viscious (Cowboy Bebop), Joker are highly thought of? Because they stimlate people not only on an intellectual level but an emotional one as well

They are good characters yes but in terms of villain, they do not represent that well, with the exception of the Joker who lets face it, should not even be mentioned as he os far out of everybody's league here.

[KyubiiRage]

Lets see how Sasuke has been developed throughout the series.

1.A cool kid with a dark theme who wants to avenge his clan but still has a good heart. His powers keep on increasing and he makes friends and learns the value of teamwork.

2. Sasuke becomes depressed over the fact that he lost to Itachi and that Naruto is advancing in a rapid pace while Sasuke is not.

3. He decides that he need more power and as such joins Orochimaru.

Part II

1. Sasuke is shown being ncredibly powerful and more colder than before.

2. He kills Oro to prove to himself that he is a force to reckon with.

3. Forms his own group.

4. Slowly starts to care for his teamates. Kills Itachi and then is captured by Madara.

5. Learns the truth about the Uchiha massacre and about Itachi. Becomes toally insane about killing the entire village when they had nothing to do with the massacre. Joins forces with the very man who admitted that it was mostly his fault that the Uchiha died.

The basic idea??

He was a cool character that was becoming powerful and interesting. Then he becomes evil but is still liked by a lot of people. Afterwards he becomes insane doesnt get the fact that the person he is working for was the same person who was responsible for the death of the Uchiha. Totally misunderstand Itachis motives and is hell bent on destroying Konoha.

Yah Sasuke is a very good character after all that shit.


It's not bad writing.
Bleach is bad writing.
Sasuke's fall was both illogical and extreme...you all clearly hate him, and again, that is the point. If you aren't analyzing him and just shooting the bull, then yeah, clearly he is a good character because he makes you feel all these emotions.

He doesnt make me feel crap. I dont hate him because he is evil. I hate him because he became insane in such a totally bizzare way and on top of that he is WORKING WITH MADARA.

Bleach is not bad writing. Bleach is better writing than Naruto I might add. The story rolls into play smoothly without the major changes like in Naruto.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Anikan Skywalker in Episode 3 was an emotionally and intellectually stimulating character? No, he was corrupted and fell.
Emotionally stimulating yes..... he (at least attemted but failed in the prequals IMO) made the character one which we can relate to and empathise with his pain
His fall then hits on emotional level by crossing the line from the virtuous and in pain to the emotionally torrential Darth Vader who can best be described as a man ruled by his passions (As the opposite of the Jedi who are almost Stoic)


Villains aren't always logical, nor are they able to register with everyone on an emotional level.
Good villains do
And negative emotions can count as well
They compel us to keep watching for a variety of reasons and that makes them fascinating caricatures of what we ourselves could be like

Take the Joker (i'm gonna use the Latest Dark knight movie of the joker BTW)
He ultimately represents mankind unleashed
The base instincts and emotions unchained by ideas of altruism and civility
Ultimately he represents the human passions without restraint as a counterpoint to Harvey Dent (Dent being the fragility of such order and control) and Batman who represent the order of emotions and taming of the passions

As I've said so many times that a broken record would be insulted by me comparing myself to it but "that's the fuckin' point."
Yes that is the point
A point many feel Sasuke misses
He does this because it is hard to rationalise his actions
He is boring and predictable
He is overly emotional without giving us any reason to share that emotional state and thus find any way to actually empathise with his character
He is hated because he is unconnected and bland
all negative emotions attached to this are not ones that are compelling people to read


The bias of that? That I like Sasuke? No, how about that instead of going on about bullshit, actually analyze the character.
Why don't you?
Lets see you divorce your emotions and give us the truly Objective side
And when you use your appeals to emotions etc to justify him we can call you biased

You see your argument is essentially that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong


Logic and emotions are absolutely not firmly tied.

Nor did I say they always were (Mathematics is an example of "pure" logic)
Logic is possible
But in this sense when judging moral actions pure logic is useless without the aid of emotions
It is known as the slavery of reason which is something you need to face in these character assessments
Your emotions concerning Sasuke will put values on his judgements

[Not Hoshigaki Kisame]

Sasuke is supposed to be an arrogant douche and as of recent, psychotic villain. That's his purpose and he fulfills it quite well. However....This is Sasuke Uchiha. He betrays Naruto, Konoha, and Orochimaru. Learns the truth about Itachi and irrationally comes to the conclusion to watch Konoha burn to the ground. He does what he wants, when he wants. SO WHY THE F&*# is he being Madra's lapboy? Common Sasuke! True jerks don't listen to anyone! Rise up!

[sproxy]

SO WHY THE F&*# is he being Madra's lapboy?
Where have you been?

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-402-page-15.html

Sasuke now wants to do what Madara wanted from the beginning due to a few lies from Madara.

http://manga.animea.net/naruto-chapter-466-page-17.html

Madara comes to the rescue of Sasuke.

I mean the whole point that Sasuke wanted to kill Madara then changed his mind and teamed up with him is kinda hinting. Madara told him a lie which he fell for and chose to ignore what Itachi said. So basically Madara warped Sasuke to do what he wants. Madara wants the destruction of Konoha aswell as taking over the world. He warped Sasuke and now Sasuke is following Madara to help complete Madara's goals.

[Mattus]

Lets see how Sasuke has been developed throughout the series.

1.A cool kid with a dark theme who wants to avenge his clan but still has a good heart. His powers keep on increasing and he makes friends and learns the value of teamwork.

2. Sasuke becomes depressed over the fact that he lost to Itachi and that Naruto is advancing in a rapid pace while Sasuke is not.

3. He decides that he need more power and as such joins Orochimaru.

Part II

1. Sasuke is shown being ncredibly powerful and more colder than before.

2. He kills Oro because he betrayed him and was attempting to kill him.

3. Forms his own group.

4. Slowly starts to care for his teamates. Kills Itachi and then is captured by Madara.

5. Learns the truth about the Uchiha massacre and about Itachi. Becomes toally insane about killing the entire village when they had nothing to do with the massacre. Joins forces with the very man who admitted that it was mostly his fault that the Uchiha died.

The basic idea??

He was a cool character that was becoming powerful and interesting. Then he becomes evil but is still liked by a lot of people. Afterwards he becomes insane doesnt get the fact that the person he is working for was the same person who was responsible for the death of the Uchiha. Totally misunderstand Itachis motives and is hell bent on destroying Konoha.

Yah Sasuke is a very good character after all that shit.

Yeah, finally you understand. Thank you.


[COLOR="blue"]He doesnt make me feel crap. I dont hate him because he is evil. I hate him because he became insane in such a totally bizzare way and on top of that he is WORKING WITH MADARA.

Okay well you will not understand but I'm sure everyone on the outside of this conversation realizes what I was saying to you was correct.

Again, emotion and bias.


Bleach is not bad writing. Bleach is better writing than Naruto I might add. The story rolls into play smoothly without the major changes like in Naruto.

Bleach is awful writing.
It's more generic than Naruto AND more generic than DBZ.


Emotionally stimulating yes..... he (at least attemted but failed in the prequals IMO) made the character one which we can relate to and empathise with his pain
His fall then hits on emotional level by crossing the line from the virtuous and in pain to the emotionally torrential Darth Vader who can best be described as a man ruled by his passions (As the opposite of the Jedi who are almost Stoic)

He went from...

- Wanting to save his wife....to completely and totally evil in under 30 minutes.

His transition(which is what people are bitching at Sasuke for) was twice as drastic and happened in SO much less time.

He went from crying from hurting Windu to slaughtering little children to trying to kill his wife and best friend...


Good villains do
And negative emotions can count as well
They compel us to keep watching for a variety of reasons and that makes them fascinating caricatures of what we ourselves could be like

Negative emotions count...then you just said I'm right, because I've been saying that all along...


Yes that is the point
A point many feel Sasuke misses
He does this because it is hard to rationalise his actions

Exactly, his actions are not supposed to be rational at all.
Saying Sasuke is bad for lack of rationalism is like saying this series is bad because of lack of realism...the idea itself is baffling.


He is boring and predictable

You have amazing predictions then.


He is overly emotional without giving us any reason to share that emotional state and thus find any way to actually empathise with his character

For someone who is so great at predictions you aren't to perceptive...which is strange because yeah, I basically just said you are.

If you(speaking generally, not just at you) can't at least understand why he's like this, you obviously are doing one or maybe both of two things.

1. You are not reading the story.
2. Your head is too far up your ass to read the story.


He is hated because he is unconnected and bland
all negative emotions attached to this are not ones that are compelling people to read

He doesn't need to be connected to be good. And he definitely isn't bland...that's your opinion but frankly, I don't see how this character is bland. He's a main character who has turned out...well, like he is now. He used to be...you know. Now he's...you know. That doesn't happen.


You see your argument is essentially that anyone who disagrees with you is wrong


No, my argument is mostly against those who are clearly biased towards him.
Ryan disagrees with me but he's not wrong. A couple of other people disagree with me but they aren't wrong.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

He went from crying from hurting Windu to slaughtering little children to trying to kill his wife and best friend.
From here to this bit I don't really see why we are arguing
I think the prequals failed in this too (and said so)
In fact I think it is best to ignore the prequals and simply keep to the original three
anikin skywalkers story is more compelling that way


Negative emotions count...then you just said I'm right, because I've been saying that all along...
However not all
some just make you want to stop reading
People Hating character=Okay
People wanting to skip character/stop reading=Bad

Exactly, his actions are not supposed to be rational at all.
Saying Sasuke is bad for lack of rationalism is like saying this series is bad because of lack of realism...the idea itself is baffling.
why?
Considering he was billed as
A/Intelligent
B/Calculating
the sudden irrationality that has led to alot of basic and stupid errors is incredibly baffling

If you(speaking generally, not just at you) can't at least understand why he's like this, you obviously are doing one or maybe both of two things.

I understand why Kishi made him like this
I just think he has done it wrong and now Sasuke is a bad character because of it

No, my argument is mostly against those who are clearly biased towards him.
I'm still waiting on your non biased analysis by the way
Lets see how you justify the character of Sasuke

[Smiley]

I really liked Sasuke the way he was in part I. But now he's turned into a crying emo retard.

[Jαckums]

Adam, your whole argument is;

I don't find his character compelling
I think he needs to be more connected to the story to be a good character
I think a character needs to rationalize their actions to be a good antagonist
I think he is boring and predictable
I think he's over-emotional and bland

It's all your opinion, and it's no coincidence all of the members who gave Sasuke ridiculously low scores dislike his character. Hence the whole argument. You're being bias, and making up bullshit reasons to try justify your low score and cover up the bias.

If his character was so predictable, bland, etc etc, the series wouldn't be as successful as it is.

People giving him really high scores could very well be doing it through bias, too. But your bias is especially obvious. It's the same with Fang and vane. You three have to be some of the biggest Sasuke-haters on TN.

Ergo, it's easy to see the bias in your responses. Ergo, all this arguing.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

It's all your opinion, and it's no coincidence all of the members who gave Sasuke ridiculously low scores dislike his character.
Ummm
So the people who don't like Sasuke gave him low scores
....
your point?

This is a self evident fact
People who hate Sasuke are not going to give him a high score
Just like people who like him aren't going to give him a low score
So why on earth should it be different this time?
Coincidence? hell no just basic sense


Hence the whole argument. You're being bias, and making up bullshit reasons to try justify your low score and cover up the bias.
Bullshit according to people who disagree with us
They like his character so obviously they don't share the same view as those who dislike the character

If his character was so predictable, bland, etc etc, the series wouldn't be as successful as it is.
No
Sasuke is one of MANY characters in this story
he currently isn't even the MAIN character or the MAIN villain

People giving him really high scores could very well be doing it through bias, too.
It's entirely possible they are

But your bias is especially obvious. It's the same with Fang and vane. You three have to be some of the biggest Sasuke-haters on TN.
We are biased because we dislike Sasuke?
Therefore any rationalisations we put forward are invalid because we are biased?
Do I really need to point out the flaws in this line of logic?

Ergo, it's easy to see the bias in your responses. Ergo, all this arguing.
No we are arguing because we have been told repeatedly that somehow there are great reasons to believe Sasuke is a great character
We have yet to actually hear these arguments FOR Sasuke and have repeatedly been attacked as biased for providing reasons for our dislike of Sasuke
We are arguing because our opponents are just using ad-hominin attacks without any justification of their own

Please
Provide a decent analysis of Sasukes character
So then we can call you biased and dismiss your claims without refutation

[WhiteFang]

Adam, your whole argument is;

I don't find his character compelling
I think he needs to be more connected to the story to be a good character
I think a character needs to rationalize their actions to be a good antagonist
I think he is boring and predictable
I think he's over-emotional and bland

It's all your opinion, and it's no coincidence all of the members who gave Sasuke ridiculously low scores dislike his character. Hence the whole argument. You're being bias, and making up bullshit reasons to try justify your low score and cover up the bias.

If his character was so predictable, bland, etc etc, the series wouldn't be as successful as it is.

People giving him really high scores could very well be doing it through bias, too. But your bias is especially obvious. It's the same with Fang and vane. You three have to be some of the biggest Sasuke-haters on TN.

Ergo, it's easy to see the bias in your responses. Ergo, all this arguing.
Dude, it's all your opinion as well. You're being biased and making up bullshit reasons to justify the perfect 10 you've given to Sasuke. Wait, what am I saying? You haven't given any reasons at all. Besides, all you say reeks of hypocrisy when you base character "goodness" off of whether they have sharingan or not.

The series is successful because of a host of characters, not Sasuke, duh. I mean, I'm sure it includes Sasuke; but he isn't the sole reason so wtf are you on about? FYI, in the latest poll, the most popular character was Kakashi.

And please, keep your ridiculous and nonsensical brand of labeling to yourself. If you've got it in you, respond to posts, or suck it up. That's all there is to it.

@Smiley: lol. Short, sweet and to the point.


Ummm
So the people who don't like Sasuke gave him low scores
....
your point?

Bullshit according to people who disagree with us
They like his character so obviously they don't share the same view as those who dislike the character

No
Sasuke is one of MANY characters in this story
he currently isn't even the MAIN character or the MAIN villain

It's entirely possible

We are biased because we dislike Sasuke
Therefore any rationalisations we put forward are invalid because we are biased?

No we are arguing because we have been told repeatedly that somehow there are great reasons to believe Sasuke is a great character
We have yet to actually hear these arguments FOR Sasuke and have repeatedly been attacked as biased for providing reasons for our dislike of Sasuke
We are arguing because our opponents are just using ad-hominin attacks

Please
Provide a decent analysis of Sasukes character
So then we can call you biased and dismiss your claims without refutation

Thanks Adam, yo'. :cool: I find it very funny that the ones screaming "bias" are the ones who've given him exceptionally high scores and refuse to justify it as well. Not like they're obligated to... but it really is funny. Calling us haters in such a circumstance sounds like a cop-out. ;)

[Jαckums]

Ummm
So the people who don't like Sasuke gave him low scores
....
your point?

Okay, end of story. You admit you're scoring him based on your bias dislike of his character. That was my whole argument earlier. Are we not scoring based off how the said character fills the role they were made to play?

If the thread is solely; how much do you like this character?

It becomes redundant, because everyone just rates their favourite characters higher, and without any basis of logic or reference to how they are as a character. And if it were such a thread where we just rate them by how much we like them, why have you all been trying to argue and justify your points?


Dude, it's all your opinion as well. You're being biased and making up bullshit reasons to justify the perfect 10 you've given to Sasuke. Wait, what am I saying? You haven't given any reasons at all.

Read my posts before replying or GTFO.


People giving him really high scores could very well be doing it through bias, too. But your bias is especially obvious. It's the same with Fang and vane. You three have to be some of the biggest Sasuke-haters on TN.
DURRRRRR.

I never tried to justify my score or say there was no bias involved, whereas, Adam has. Up until his most recent reply anyway, where he admitted bias. Which is slightly confusing because this whole time he's been trying to pass his bullshit reasons for rating Sasuke as actual neutral comments.


Besides, all you say reeks of hypocrisy when you base character "goodness" off of whether they have sharingan or not.

Referring to the Jiraiya rating thread?

You're not very bright if you took my comment about Jiraiya not having the Sharingan seriously. Or maybe you're just looking for things to use against me because you're massively butthurt that I just called you on your extremely obvious bias when it comes to Sasuke. I mean, for that one comment about you being one of TN's biggest Sasuke-haters, you sure did come back with a pretty snippy reply and a load of negative comments. I could almost put you on vane's level for this post.

[Kankurotto]

No
Sasuke is one of MANY characters in this story
he currently isn't even the MAIN character or the MAIN villain

Are we reading the same Manga here or are you being sarcastic? 'One of many'? Sasuke is a main character, and by that is a main antagonist as well.

These are purely facts.

Edit: I noticed the 'the' parts in your post but still.

[WhiteFang]

Read my posts before replying or GTFO.


DURRRRRR.

I never tried to justify my score or say there was no bias involved, whereas, Adam has. Up until his most recent reply anyway, where he admitted bias. Which is slightly confusing because this whole time he's been trying to pass his bullshit reasons for rating Sasuke as actual neutral comments.
Dude, you labeled me as a hater and are now coping-out behind that sentence. Read my entire post and don't take it out of context. Might I add that I have actually given Sasuke a 5. That's 50%. And I have even given my reasons for it. Stuff like how his character has deteriorated in silly ways overtime. How the 'effin hell is that hating?


Referring to the Jiraiya rating thread?

You're not very bright if you took my comment about Jiraiya not having the Sharingan seriously. Or maybe you're just looking for things to use against me because you're massively butthurt that I just called you on your extremely obvious bias when it comes to Sasuke. I mean, for that one comment about you being one of TN's biggest Sasuke-haters, you sure did come back with a pretty snippy reply and a load of negative comments. I could almost put you on vane's level for this post.
Isn't it obvious?

Once again, silly boy, you unjustly called me a hater without using any logic, like I said above. I called you out on that. If you don't get that, you're the one who isn't bright at all. And it isn't a snippy reply, it's just pure facts. You're judgment skills are flawed and demented if you call someone who's given a character a 5 and justified it with reasoning, a hater. I won't sit back and let you say untrue, idiotic things about me. Like I said, keep the childishness to yourself and don't go around calling people names or clubbing them into groups just because you're butthurt about someone critically addressing your deity favorite character. So debate logically and refute my reasons, indulge in a discussion; or just STFU - don't go around making silly "hater" claims.

And really, let me make this clear once and for all - stop with the useless bias argument. Because it isn't even an argument. Liking or disliking someone/something is in and of itself a biased phenomenon. Like Matt once said, it's called having an opinion. Someone who's unbiased would neither like nor dislike Sasuke. Bias is what allows you to like/dislike something. I'd also like to add that there's a reason this is called 'Character Rating' i.e. how each individual rates them according to their own perspective. Because something called objective/strictly logical rating doesn't exist until and unless it's mathematics. Or science, in cases. Rating/analyzing a character/individual has to involve emotions and hence a natural extent of bias, like it or not.

If there is anything worth debating - it is if you feel that the reasons stated by either party for their like/dislike are flawed themselves.

[Jαckums]

Dude, you labeled me as a hater and are now coping-out behind that sentence. Read my entire post and don't take it out of context. Might I add that I have actually given Sasuke a 5. That's 50%. And I have even given my reasons for it. Stuff like how his character has deteriorated in silly ways overtime. How the 'effin hell is that hating?

I never said your rating showed your 'hater' attitude. It was a general statement about you being a Sasuke hater. Which is your choice. I was just pointing it out, with no relevance to the score you'd given him.


Once again, silly boy, you unjustly called me a hater without using any logic, like I said above. I called you out on that. If you don't get that, you're the one who isn't bright at all.
And it isn't a snippy reply, it's just pure facts. You're judgment skills are flawed and demented if you call someone who's given a character a 5 and justified it with reasoning, a hater. I won't sit back and let you say untrue, idiotic things about me. Like I said, keep the childishness to yourself and don't go around calling people names or clubbing them into groups just because you're butthurt about someone critically addressing your deity favorite character. So debate logically and refute my reasons, indulge in a discussion; or just STFU - don't go around making silly "hater" claims.

And really, let me make this clear once and for all - stop with the useless bias argument. Because it isn't even an argument. Liking or disliking someone/something is in and of itself a biased phenomenon. Like Matt once said, it's called having an opinion. Someone who's unbiased would neither like nor dislike Sasuke. Bias is what allows you to like/dislike something. I'd also like to add that there's a reason this is called 'Character Rating' i.e. how each individual rates them according to their own perspective. Because something called objective/strictly logical rating doesn't exist until and unless it's mathematics. Or science, in cases. Rating/analyzing a character/individual has to involve emotions and hence a natural extent of bias, like it or not.

If there is anything worth debating - it is if you feel that the reasons stated by either party for their like/dislike are flawed themselves.

There's no point replying to anything above due to the fact I never called you a hater because of the score you gave Sasuke. You are a hater when it comes to Sasuke in general. You've made that very obvious with your attitude towards him and your posts regarding him. But I never stated that I called you a hater due to your rating of him. You took my post out of context, and as a result, jumped to a conclusion of what I was saying. Which is why I commented on your 'snippy' reply.

Despite your obvious bias towards Sasuke, I would've said your score was reasonable with the reasoning given. Which is also why I wasn't calling you a hater in regards to the score you gave, once again. My argument was directed at those who gave Sasuke a 1, and tried to justify it with bullshit reasons like Adam and Ryan. That is where the bias is extremely obviously affecting their vote. 1 is the lowest possible rating you could give a character. Do you honestly, putting your dislike of him aside, think Sasuke fails at his intended role that much that a '1' is a reasonable rating? No, it's just plain bias. Hence my entire argument.

[cursedneji18]

My argument was directed at those who gave Sasuke a 1, and tried to justify it with bullshit reasons

no those who like sasuke are filled with nothing but bullshit. seriously sasuke fans make as much sense as sasuke himself not any at all. and yes im being bias for thats what a opinion is and i dont really care either way i tried to look on both sides but i dont care anymore. those who like sasuke are so far up their own butt with their whole "sasukes still and will always be the coolest character in the world" views it's not even funny anymore and have the gull to condemn others views :lmao:

[Pokeaotics]

^^If you can't understand the character that's your own fault. Sasuke's a beautifully written character who has shown amazing progress.

[WhiteFang]

Before anything, now you're being reasonable. Now I understand better what you are meaning. So thank you. I personally do not like hostile confrontations with anybody. We can discuss things without calling each other things. I've had such discussions with you in the past.

I never said your rating showed your 'hater' attitude. It was a general statement about you being a Sasuke hater. Which is your choice. I was just pointing it out, with no relevance to the score you'd given him.
No, I am actually not a hater, per say. Disliking the way a character has been developed =/= mindless hating. I can show you posts where I've frankly admitted things I've liked things about Sasuke - his tactical fighting style for example. Sadly enough, Kishi seems to have taken even that away to a large extent in the course of his development. I don't like it. I call it character regression. Maybe during my posts I sound a bit vehement and hater-ish; but it tends to happen in a heated debate - as a fellow debater I expect you to understand.


There's no point replying to anything above due to the fact I never called you a hater because of the score you gave Sasuke. You are a hater when it comes to Sasuke in general. You've made that very obvious with your attitude towards him and your posts regarding him. But I never stated that I called you a hater due to your rating of him. You took my post out of context, and as a result, jumped to a conclusion of what I was saying. Which is why I commented on your 'snippy' reply.
But in the end what I ended up rating Sasuke is basically a conclusion of what I feel about Sasuke as a character on a whole, Jack. Maybe my posts are giving that vibe because we are discussing more of later Part 2 Sasuke, and that Sasuke is infact the reason for my 5 and my current unfavorable view of him. I liked Part 1 Sasuke and was also constantly kept interested by part 2 Sasuke till... well... the cave talk. So no, I'm not a hater when it comes to Sasuke, in general, I'm just being critical. Critical reasoning naturally sounds harsh, especially in a debate. Doesn't mean you're a hater. Hater is all "BAWWW. Sasuke SUCKS, I tell you. Good for nothing loser! He should just DIE!" Here we're going ahead and stating reasons for thinking why Sasuke's character is flawed/has ended up as bad writing/hasn't been given a solid footing and direction, etc. That's a critical analysis, not hating.


Despite your obvious bias towards Sasuke, I would've said your score was reasonable with the reasoning given. Which is also why I wasn't calling you a hater in regards to the score you gave, once again. My argument was directed at those who gave Sasuke a 1, and tried to justify it with bullshit reasons like Adam and Ryan. That is where the bias is extremely obviously affecting their vote. 1 is the lowest possible rating you could give a character. Do you honestly, putting your dislike of him aside, think Sasuke fails at his intended role that much that a '1' is a reasonable rating? No, it's just plain bias. Hence my entire argument.
Thanks. You called me one of the three biggest Sasuke haters on TN, in your post. :lol: I was in a sour mood and hence my rather touchy stance. But I wouldn't give Sasuke a 1, analyzing him as a whole. Throughout the series. Sasuke's had his good moments, his amazing moments. But then for me, Kishi has just proceeded to destroy him little by little and he's bringing him to a low point. Hence why my apparent "hate." I don't really hate him though, I'm more annoyed than anything. I think Kishi is just wasting a character because he couldn't come up with something more plausible.

And as far as Adam and Ryan are concerned; only they can explain themselves. But if I had to say something I'd say that Adam is prolly exaggerating a bit, though his utterly logical brain probably really does dislike Sasuke. As for Ryan, iirc, he said he gave a 1 for the lulz. So yeah. Maybe he's just having some fun on a character's expense. xD

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Are we reading the same Manga here or are you being sarcastic? 'One of many'? Sasuke is a main character, and by that is a main antagonist as well.
Sasuke is one of many Characters is a fact
And the success of the manga cannot be attributed to any single character
So I stand by that part of my statement

Naruto is the main (and title) character so Saske is not that either
Madara is the main villain driving the main plot at the moment and so he is the Main villain
I stand by these points as well

Sasuke is one of many characters and he is neither the main villain or the main character


Okay, end of story. You admit you're scoring him based on your bias dislike of his character. That was my whole argument earlier. Are we not scoring based off how the said character fills the role they were made to play?
:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
Seriously?
Did you just read the first line and ignore the rest of the post?

I have posted what I think of how Sasuke is filling the role he is there for
He is filling it badly
Hence why I GAVE HIM A LOW SCORE

that is the point of the thread
I dislike him for a number of reasons and overall think he is a weak character

Get you head around that and stop with this silly idea that anyone against Sasuke is biased beyond all compare

And if it were such a thread where we just rate them by how much we like them, why have you all been trying to argue and justify your points?
Lets see
1/BECAUSE THATS THE POINT
2/See 1

I don't like his character
I have given reasosn for not liking his character
I have given reasons why his character DOESN'T fulfil any useful role in the manga

So either answer to my objections or please GTFO with this biased nonsense you keep spouting like a mantra

if he is so great you sould have no trouble refuting all my claims and proving how great he is
The base tactic of ad-hominin attacks suggests to me that you really can't do this and so are simply disagreeing with me without any justification

Which is slightly confusing because this whole time he's been trying to pass his bullshit reasons for rating Sasuke as actual neutral comments.
I have never made any secret that I don't think Sasuke is a good character

And remember I was also the one arguing that in this case neutral and Objective logic was impossible due to a thesis called the slavery of reason where ones logic is inevitably tied to ones emotions and passions hence people can't be truly without bias

please read my posts before making baseless claims

But if I had to say something I'd say that Adam is prolly exaggerating a bit,
Not as much as you would think
In terms of Naruto manga he is one of the weakest written characters IMO
Overall for all of the mangas/anime.......low middle of the list of the worst

[Kankurotto]

Sasuke is one of many Characters is a fact
And the success of the manga cannot be attributed to any single character
So I stand by that part of my statement

Naruto is the main (and title) character so Saske is not that either
Madara is the main villain driving the main plot at the moment and so he is the Main villain
I stand by these points as well

Incorrect Adam, as your opinion seem to take over you entirely regarding these two points.

Sasuke along with Sakura and Kakashi they are considered as main characters by the author of the Naruto series regardless what you may think of them.
He doesn't need to have the Manga named after him just to be recognized as such.
There are many other movies/literature/etc that are practically following the same principle as it's really possible to have multiple Main Characters within a story. Isn't that obvious?

And regarding the 2nd point he may not be the main villain at this very moment but he's still a main villain within the current storyline. You may not like Sasuke, fine. But I really think you're going too far like Fang mentioned earlier.

Sasuke + Main Character along with Kakashi and Sakura = Fact. No opinion, regardless how much the characters may suck, can counter this, period.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Sasuke along with Sakura and Kakashi they are considered as main characters by the author of the Naruto series regardless what you may think of them.
So now we are arguing the semantics of Main characters are we?

Naruto is ultimately the main character
This is his story and his life

Sakura would barely qualify for a Main character in shippuden due to having little to do with anything
Kakashi could also be considered less then the main character for many of the same reasons (Although he has had alot more exposure in shippuden the Sakura has)
Sasuke is the most debateable as to wether he still classifies as a main character in terms of Shippuden (Preskip I have no qualms calling team 7 all main characters as they were the main focus of the story as a group so lets keep this to the current chapters)
I don't consider Sasuke a main character as he currently is.....
A/Supplanted by the main plot which currently has it's own villain
b/not really in the main plot except by reference and association

He doesn't need to have the Manga named after him just to be recognized as such.
True
But the again this is coming down to what we are defining as "Main" character

There are many others Manga that are practically the same as it's really possible to have multiple Main Characters within a story. Isn't that obvious?
It is also possible to have no "main" characters (Like Baccano)

again I just don;t think Sasuke qualifies as a main character because he is disconnected from the main plot for the most part
He is an auxillary villain at best ATM

And regarding the 2nd point he may not be the main villain but he's still a main villain within the current storyline.
I would regard him as a minor villain
Like Kabutomaru currently is, and like the other Akatsuki before him

[Kankurotto]

So now we are arguing the semantics of Main characters are we?

I guess. x3


Naruto is ultimately the main character
This is his story and his life

Yes, this is indeed a solid fact as no one should be denying this.

However, I still stand my point that Harry Potter is a main character along with Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger for example.

Although, these are interesting points:


Sakura would barely qualify for a Main character in shippuden due to having little to do with anything
Kakashi could also be considered less then the main character for many of the same reasons (Although he has had alot more exposure in shippuden the Sakura has)
Sasuke is the most debateable as to wether he still classifies as a main character in terms of Shippuden (Preskip I have no qualms calling team 7 all main characters as they were the main focus of the story as a group so lets keep this to the current chapters)
I don't consider Sasuke a main character as he currently is.....
A/Supplanted by the main plot which currently has it's own villain
b/not really in the main plot except by reference and association

These points I indeed agree with. The screentime regarding the four main characters differs vastly.

But moving the Main Character-status level regarding the four of them aside, I still do recognize all of them as main characters.

Plus Kishi may have later plans for them in order for them to regain the high status they once had. Well, at least in Kakashi's case.


It is also possible to have no "main" characters (Like Baccano)

Agreed but the styles between Baccano and Naruto are way too different.
In Naruto they're focusing a lot on certain characters.
In Baccano however they seem to... randomly switch from one to another, which is quite confusing in my opinion. Then again, I do have to admit that I haven't watched it as much as I've watched Naruto so my point may very well be invalid in this type of discussion. If it is, please correct my point.


again I just don;t think Sasuke qualifies as a main character because he is disconnected from the main plot for the most part
He is an auxillary villain at best ATM

Considering how much Kishi has been focusing on him, I can't help but agree with Matt's earlier points that he's simply a Vegeta and Naruto is a Goku.

Plus according to the current storyline, it seems like both Naruto and Sasuke are eventually going to meet up sooner than later.

He may be a less main character than Kakashi but in all honesty I still do recognize him as a main character within the story.


I would regard him as a minor villain
Like Kabutomaru currently is, and like the other Akatsuki before him

Pfft, now you're being unfair. :lmao:

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I guess. x3
yay for semantics:p

Yes, this is indeed a solid fact as no one should be denying this.

However, I still stand my point that Harry Potter is a main character along with Ron Weasley and Hermione Granger for example.
However I think it comes down to Ron and Hermione being constantly in the plot
At no point was one omitted for a book or given less then a decent amount of time and characterisation

These points I indeed agree with. The screentime regarding the four main characters differs vastly.
Yeah
Which I miss because the variable time given even to admittedly minor characters was good


But moving the Main Character-status level regarding the four of them aside, I still do recognize all of them as main characters.
For me the main characters are ones important to the overall "main plot"
I know people disagree with this but it means ones like Shikamaru (Who had almost an entire pair of villains and an entire arc dedicated to him and his team) don't become main characters without alot more work

Plus Kishi may have later plans for them in order for them to regain the high status they once had. Well, at least in Kakashi's case.
And when he does you can quote me and I will renounce myposition that they aren't main characters
Kakashi I would label as an Auxilliary or at least a High Minor character
Auxilliary in that ultimately he is attached to the main character without being a main character
Like Suigetsu is an Auxillary villain because he is not actually a villain but a villains minor henchman

Agreed but the styles between Baccano and Naruto are way too different.
In Naruto they're focusing a lot on certain characters.
In Baccano however they seem to... randomly switch from one to another, which is quite confusing in my opinion.
No one character has singular importance
The whole first episode of Baccano spells out the mechanics (And they can be confusing first time around) of why none are truly main characters due to the story being subjective from their own points of views and experiences (So one character may be good/bad, Important/trivial depending whos view you take)

Considering how much Kishi has been focusing on him, I can't help but agree with Matt's earlier points that he's simply a Vegeta and Naruto is a Goku.I'm not sure I agree with this analogy
Perhaps end of preskip I would
Naruto ahead and Sasuke striving to match him

But currently Sasuke has done everything to distance himself from the plot as a whole
and the vegeta analogy doesn't really hold (I gues you can say EMS but then vegeta always relied onhis own power as well, he had a superiority complex and not so much irrationality)


Plus according to the current storyline, it seems like both Naruto and Sasuke are eventually going to meet up sooner than later.
It's possible
and again I am willing to give him main character status as soon as he becomes a main character

He may be a less main character than Kakashi but in all honesty I still do recognize him as a main character within the story.
I just don;t see his overall relevance to the plot ATM
Yeah there is the whle Naruto and Sasuke bond
but Sasuke really isn't the main driving force ATM

Pfft, now you're being unfair. :lmao:
Which part:xd:

[KyubiiRage]

Sasuke was a good character in part 1 and all the way to his fight with Deidara. Then he slowly started to walk down the hill of insanity and is now a total lunatic. How is he a good character if he is a major hypocrite?

Kishi made Sasuke into a bad character. If Sasuke was evil but still had his powers and attitude as before then he would have been an awesome character and a great addition to the series. I would have probably given him an 8 or 9! A cool and intellegent Sasuke would have been better than the current Sasuke who declares genocide on Konoha. Plus, I dont think the series needs Sasuke as a villain anyway. Madara is already there. Sasuke isn't much when it comes to being evil except for sometimes showing "evil chakra" and his Mangekyo. He has got nothing against villains like Oro and Madara. Heck Kakuzu and Hidan were better villains then him.

[sproxy]

And if it were such a thread where we just rate them by how much we like them, why have you all been trying to argue and justify your points?
Maybe because some people just legitimately dont like him through his role in the story?

I personally think that Sasuke's roll in the story isnt that great at all. And I'll get called biased for mentioning this, but I dont think his role is that great. I think all his reasons are shrouded, he's become to emotional (even if thats how Kishi wrote him) and he's become fanatical.

The only way I could see his actions being justified is if Itachi didnt actually kill his family/clan. I dont really feel like explaining but I will if necessary. Honestly if he was to have acted through Itachi's intentions after his fight with Itachi I would have continued liking his character and role. I liked his character and roll up to right after that fight. The second he talked to Madara and then wanted to kill Konoha he actions became unjustified and completely ignores Itachi's goals.

1. So putting myself in Sasuke shoes, my brother kills my family. He runs away and now Im determined to find him and kill him. I have a goal. Its a justifiable goal. I mean damn he killed my family.

2. Ok now I have fought and killed my brother, but he says someone else helped him kill my family. In the end I pass out.

3. I wake up in a cold dank place with a man standing over me. The man who my brother said helped kill my family. This man starts telling me a story of how my family was actually bad people and wanted to destroy the city I live in. And my brother worked for the city who told him what they were planning so he took action.

4. I come to realize that my brother wasnt really a bad person, and yes it would upset me that he was given a mission to kill my family but in the end Id come to realize that he not only saved the city but he kept the city from getting overun by another city and killed a lot of my family anyways.

5. At this point I would probably try and attack and kill this man that my brother who was a good person said helped kill my family. Mostly because he wasnt given the mission, he did it just to do it.

6. Im bitter towards the government of the city but at least everything is ok and Im gonna reclaim the glory of my family by making a new one.

But Sasuke on the other hand did something completely different. Him teaming up with the man who helped kill his family is a bad role in my opinion. Yes it still stems from opinion but I just think thats a bad choice, and doesnt fit the story well cus there was so much more he could have done in my opinion.

[WhiteFang]

Not as much as you would think
In terms of Naruto manga he is one of the weakest written characters IMO
Overall for all of the mangas/anime.......low middle of the list of the worst
xDDD Which is why I said "a bit" and followed it through with the "he probably really does utterly dislike Sasuke" I wouldn't call him the weakest in terms of screen-time and focus. In terms of mentality, yes, he's definitely become weaker and weaker to the point of absolutely degenerating his cognitive capacities and e-quotient as well.
But when I rate Sasuke as a whole I wouldn't give him a 1. v.v You can't call him totally pointless because he was very significant in part 1. And he had his role in part 2 as well, till the ItachiSasuke battle. But I think you've rated him on the basis of character progression and aptness of writing with respect to former character development - which where I see why you'd give him a 1. :o


Maybe because some people just legitimately dont like him through his role in the story?

I personally think that Sasuke's roll in the story isnt that great at all. And I'll get called biased for mentioning this, but I dont think his role is that great. I think all his reasons are shrouded, he's become to emotional (even if thats how Kishi wrote him) and he's become fanatical.

The only way I could see his actions being justified is if Itachi didnt actually kill his family/clan. I dont really feel like explaining but I will if necessary. Honestly if he was to have acted through Itachi's intentions after his fight with Itachi I would have continued liking his character and role. I liked his character and roll up to right after that fight. The second he talked to Madara and then wanted to kill Konoha he actions became unjustified and completely ignores Itachi's goals.

1. So putting myself in Sasuke shoes, my brother kills my family. He runs away and now Im determined to find him and kill him. I have a goal. Its a justifiable goal. I mean damn he killed my family.

2. Ok now I have fought and killed my brother, but he says someone else helped him kill my family. In the end I pass out.

3. I wake up in a cold dank place with a man standing over me. The man who my brother said helped kill my family. This man starts telling me a story of how my family was actually bad people and wanted to destroy the city I live in. And my brother worked for the city who told him what they were planning so he took action.

4. I come to realize that my brother wasnt really a bad person, and yes it would upset me that he was given a mission to kill my family but in the end Id come to realize that he not only saved the city but he kept the city from getting overun by another city and killed a lot of my family anyways.

5. At this point I would probably try and attack and kill this man that my brother who was a good person said helped kill my family. Mostly because he wasnt given the mission, he did it just to do it.

6. Im bitter towards the government of the city but at least everything is ok and Im gonna reclaim the glory of my family by making a new one.

But Sasuke on the other hand did something completely different. Him teaming up with the man who helped kill his family is a bad role in my opinion. Yes it still stems from opinion but I just think thats a bad choice, and doesnt fit the story well cus there was so much more he could have done in my opinion.

+QFT.

---------- Post added at 11:55 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:54 AM ----------

Oh, and you tagged me, Adam. :susp: :xd:

[cursedneji18]

^^If you can't understand the character that's your own fault. Sasuke's a beautifully written character who has shown amazing progress.

oh i understand character fine. thats why i know he's a fail.

[KyubiiRage]

oh i understand character fine. thats why i know he's a fail.

See now thats a beautifuly written statement.

When are we going to get a new character thread?

[Kankurotto]

See now thats a beautifuly written statement.

When are we going to get a new character thread?

http://www.talknaruto.com/naruto/showthread.php?20285-Character-Rating-Thread-7-Jiraiya

And after him, a new one will probably come up soon in 2-3 days.

[Mattus]

I noticed an argument regarding Sasuke being a main character. Like Otto said. Arguing against that is like arguing against the title of the manga.

1. The author tells us this, many a'time.
2. It's right there in front of your face, it's literally impossible to miss.

---------- Post added at 11:42 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 AM ----------

Just thought I'd add my two cents on that discussion.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I noticed an argument regarding Sasuke being a main character. Like Otto said. Arguing against that is like arguing against the title of the manga.

1. The author tells us this, many a'time.
2. It's right there in front of your face, it's literally impossible to miss.

Just thought I'd add my two cents on that discussion.
In the end that was merely differing concepts on the word "Main" and whether the character is a main character always, Once a main always a main ala Sakura, or whether characters drop in and out of being main characters due to screen time/importance

For Me sasukes lack of involvement in the main plot renders him less then a main character
Certainly one of the major characters much like Kakashi or Zetsu (Hence the auxilliary character status which is for one attached to a main character and so gets alot of exposure while not being the main focus)

But I simply defined the Main as the most important which ATM were Madara as a villain and Naruto as the Protagonist

[Mattus]

In the end that was merely differing concepts on the word "Main" and whether the character is a main character always, Once a main always a main ala Sakura, or whether characters drop in and out of being main characters due to screen time/importance

For Me sasukes lack of involvement in the main plot renders him less then a main character
Certainly one of the major characters much like Kakashi or Zetsu (Hence the auxilliary character status which is for one attached to a main character and so gets alot of exposure while not being the main focus)

But I simply defined the Main as the most important which ATM were Madara as a villain and Naruto as the Protagonist

Title - Seinfeld
Main - Seinfeld, George, Elaine, Kramer.

That explains it pretty well imo.
Sasuke and Naruto are clearly the main characters of Shippuden. Kishi has shown us a back-and-forth writing style with the two.
Main isn't necessarily most important at the moment, current central would be a better descrption.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Title - Seinfeld
Main - Seinfeld, George, Elaine, Kramer
ummm
ok

That explains it pretty well imo.
Sasuke and Naruto are clearly the main characters of Shippuden. Kishi has shown us a back-and-forth writing style with the two.
Again it depends what we are calling main characters

Main isn't necessarily most important at the moment, current central would be a better descrption.
Yeah in the end it is all semantics

[KyubiiRage]

ummm
ok

Again it depends what we are calling main characters

Yeah in the end it is all semantics

You would have to be blind to not notice the fact that Sasuke is a main character. No one in the whole series except Naruto has had so much character development. Sasuke could practically have his own series called SASUKE.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

You would have to be blind to not notice the fact that Sasuke is a main character. No one in the whole series except Naruto has had so much character development. Sasuke could practically have his own series called SASUKE.
Again we have differing views on what exactly constitutes a main character
And earlier I did say that sasuke was a main character pre-skip but is not now

For me the main character is one that is important to the main plot
Ones that are attacked to the main characters can get alot of development without being as important to the main plot as the main characters
Sasuke is one such, Kakashi is anouther and I guess Sakura is a third but not so much in Shippiden

[Mattus]

Again we have differing views on what exactly constitutes a main character
And earlier I did say that sasuke was a main character pre-skip but is not now

For me the main character is one that is important to the main plot
Ones that are attacked to the main characters can get alot of development without being as important to the main plot as the main characters
Sasuke is one such, Kakashi is anouther and I guess Sakura is a third but not so much in Shippiden

No no. Like he said, you have to be blind. Sasuke is still a main character. Naruto and Sasuke are clearly both main characters.
There can be "for you" but in actuality, by definition, and according to fans and the writer....both are main characters...

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

No no. Like he said, you have to be blind. Sasuke is still a main character. Naruto and Sasuke are clearly both main characters.
There can be "for you" but in actuality, by definition, and according to fans and the writer....both are main characters...

By definition? and what definition would this be?
Secondly do I not constitute a Fan?
And Thirdly the writer.....the same writer that you constantly go at? And also remember for a large part of the manga I have acknowledged Sasukes main character Status which has now fallen off

[Boot]

how in the world can anyone think sasuke is not a main character????????

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

how in the world can anyone think sasuke is not a main character????????
Simple
He isn't overly important to the main plot except by some vague connection (Somethin about prophecy but otherwise not much else)

[Mattus]

By definition? and what definition would this be?
Secondly do I not constitute a Fan?
And Thirdly the writer.....the same writer that you constantly go at? And also remember for a large part of the manga I have acknowledged Sasukes main character Status which has now fallen off

Well according to technical definition, a main character cannot be a villain, evidently. However I was referring a definition more like, a central character in the story, which is obviously Naruto and Sasuke. All definitions mention a central character but they also say protagonist...
You constitute as a fan but you seem to stand alone. Even one of the biggest Sasuke haters I've seen says he's a main character.
Yes, what does it matter that I don't like how he writes? He says Naruto and Sasuke are main characters, they are main characters. Fallen off how? Part II has always gone back and forth between Naruto storyline and Sasuke storyline on a dramatic scale.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Well according to technical definition, a main character cannot be a villain, evidently.
I found the same thing
many equate "Main Character" with "Protagonist"

However I was referring a definition more like, a central character in the story, which is obviously Naruto and Sasuke. All definitions mention a central character but they also say protagonist...
Indeed
So hence why we are arguing Semantics really as neither has any clear definition of that constitutes a main character
As I said before for me they are ones important for the main plot

For me the main plot is the one to which all other plots and characters are bound
In this case it is Narutos story which is encompassed by Madaras Actions

This makes the Primary Protagonist Naruto (Obiously)
and the primary Antagonist Madara (As the lead and perpetrator of the Plot involving Naruto)

This makes them the Main characters in the story
Ultimately everyone else can be replaced and so are not main characters

You constitute as a fan but you seem to stand alone. Even one of the biggest Sasuke haters I've seen says he's a main character.
I never liked crowds much anyway lol

Yes, what does it matter that I don't like how he writes? He says Naruto and Sasuke are main characters, they are main characters.
Because you are picking and choosing
Kishi says alot of things
And as we have seen the definitions of main characters make a statement one of simple views depending on what you think constitutes a main character

Fallen off how? Part II has always gone back and forth between Naruto storyline and Sasuke storyline on a dramatic scale.
And IMO Sasukes plots have had increasingly less relevance to that of the Title
Naruto
Narutos Story
Sasukes plots are less and less relevant to this as hegoes along and has evolved more into a mere subplot that gets alot of attention

[Mattus]

I found the same thing
many equate "Main Character" with "Protagonist"

Yeah, that has shown to be untrue in countless stories....The Dark Knight immediately comes to mind.


Indeed
So hence why we are arguing Semantics really as neither has any clear definition of that constitutes a main character
As I said before for me they are ones important for the main plot

Sasuke is going to attack Konoha then betray Tobi. Kabuto is after Sasuke. Kabuto has teamed up with Madara to betray Sasuke.
...how is he not affecting the plot?


This makes the Primary Protagonist Naruto (Obiously)
and the primary Antagonist Madara (As the lead and perpetrator of the Plot involving Naruto)

I think the primary antagonists are both Madara and Sasuke. Both have been a villain for their entire Part 2 run, both are dangerous, both have similar motives(at the moment).


This makes them the Main characters in the story
Ultimately everyone else can be replaced and so are not main characters

Technically any one can be replaced....


Because you are picking and choosing
Kishi says alot of things
And as we have seen the definitions of main characters make a statement one of simple views depending on what you think constitutes a main character

How am I picking and choosing?



And IMO Sasukes plots have had increasingly less relevance to that of the Title
Naruto
Narutos Story
Sasukes plots are less and less relevant to this as hegoes along and has evolved more into a mere subplot that gets alot of attention

Again...what?

Naruto's Plot - He knows something is going on but not quite sure...
Sasuke's Plot - Going to Konoha to kill the elders, the hokage, and to destroy the village. He plans to betray his partner but his partner's partner is planning on killing him.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Yeah, that has shown to be untrue in countless stories....The Dark Knight immediately comes to mind.
yeah Dark Knight was Joker+Batman

Sasuke is going to attack Konoha
Which is part of Madaras plan
Heck he is the one forcing/Helping Sasuke to this Goal

Hence why this fall under the plot of Madaras plan

then betray Tobi.
He'll try
But then again this is either a continuation of a sub par sub plot or merely anouther Cog in the Madara plan (He certainly seems to know the disaffection of Sasuke)

Kabuto is after Sasuke.
Continuation of a former main plot relegated to a side plot after Oro's demise

Kabuto has teamed up with Madara to betray Sasuke.
Same as above

...how is he not affecting the plot?
I never said these weren't affecting plots
They are not affecting the main plot

Side plots are plentiful and can do things without overly affecting the main plot at all
Either that or others are merely part of the Main plot which is ultimately held by Madara

I think the primary antagonists are both Madara and Sasuke. Both have been a villain for their entire Part 2 run, both are dangerous, both have similar motives(at the moment).
Sasuke wasn't really much of a villain until after the Sasuke/Itachi fight
Before then he was not really good or evil and his goals were not ultimately that of a villain or a hero IMO

Technically any one can be replaced....
However you remove Madara and his plan goes out the window
Remove Naruto and the whole story goes out the window

Now this doesn't mean that characters couldn't have bee different from the start blah blah

Think of it like this
If Character X were to die
Would the plot continue pretty much as it is

If Sasuke died would Madara continue? yes
If Madara died would his plans continue? No (Due to being the only one currently able to pull of the plot we know about)
If Sakura died woud the plot continue? Yes
If Naruto died would the plot continue? No in the sense that this is his story and without him it is no longer Naruto


How am I picking and choosing?
Do you accept everything Kishi says?

[Mattus]

Which is part of Madaras plan
Heck he is the one forcing/Helping Sasuke to this Goal

Hence why this fall under the plot of Madaras plan

No...that's just as much Sasuke's plot as it is Madara's...that's a lie...that's JUST Sasuke's plot....


I never said these weren't affecting plots
They are not affecting the main plot

...yes they are...


Side plots are plentiful and can do things without overly affecting the main plot at all
Either that or others are merely part of the Main plot which is ultimately held by Madara

and Sasuke and soon Kabuto.


Sasuke wasn't really much of a villain until after the Sasuke/Itachi fight
Before then he was not really good or evil and his goals were not ultimately that of a villain or a hero IMO

True.


However you remove Madara and his plan goes out the window
Remove Naruto and the whole story goes out the window

You said replace, not remove.
You remove Sasuke, Naruto's dead. Therefore no story, see how that one works?


If Sasuke died would Madara continue? yes

If Madara died would Sasuke continue? yes


Do you accept everything Kishi says?

1. This is not like "Naruto was born Janurary 11th". This is like, Kakashi will have a bigger role in 2010(which proved to be a lie). It's something he says regarding the story, not details within the story.
2. If he says it, I have no reason to believe it isn't true. If he writes important details about his story in another book, I have no reason to believe it isn't true, nor do I have a reason to believe it is true.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

No...that's just as much Sasuke's plot as it is Madara's...that's a lie...that's JUST Sasuke's plot....
Who was it that told Sasuke about the village? Elders? Itachi?.....Madara
Who used Sasuke by throwing him into situations where he dimly overused MS?.....Madara
Brought him to Danzou?......Madara
Saved him from Kakashi and Naruto?.....Madara
Who is giving him EMS to defeat the 9tailed host?.......Madara

Seriously Madaras involvement as the brains behind this has been pretty obvious


...yes they are...
In what way?


and Sasuke and soon Kabuto.
I doubt Kabutomaru will ever get anywhere
Frankly I still don't buy that Madara is scared of him or anything and most likely Kabutomaru will be fodder for someone
As for Sasuke this has yet to be decided
Currently
No

You said replace, not remove.
Remove/Replace is that really a big deal
Replacing means little unless you mean more like Substitute
In which case Madara and Naruto are still the two that it can't be done to
For Madara
Sasuke can't as he lacks the aspects of the Senju and Sage
Kabutomaru can't for the same reason
Zetu can't for the same reason

If you look at it Madara is the only one currently able to fulfil his own plan
The plot of World Domination and Ultimate power (Moons eye plan and ressurection of the Juub and Sage)

You remove Sasuke, Naruto's dead. Therefore no story, see how that one works?
No
Please explain how you got to this conclusion


If Madara died would Sasuke continue? yes
Would he be able to continue Madaras plan
No
Main plot over
Remember the main plot is currently world domination, subjugation, reformation (and a couple of other -ation words I bet) headed by Madara for the last century or so
Sasukes is one of selfish revenge that would end rather suddenly and without purpose and certainly lacks the plot necessary to bind the Narutoverse in the way it has (it really only involves Konoha and if you want to stretch it Raikage for the attacking KB bit)


as for the last part I once again refer to our problem of what we consider main characters
Kishis view is the same

[Mattus]

Who was it that told Sasuke about the village? Elders? Itachi?.....Madara
Who used Sasuke by throwing him into situations where he dimly overused MS?.....Madara
Brought him to Danzou?......Madara
Saved him from Kakashi and Naruto?.....Madara
Who is giving him EMS to defeat the 9tailed host?.......Madara

Seriously Madaras involvement as the brains behind this has been pretty obvious

Yes, it's very obvious. But look at it this way...you're saying Anikan doesn't exist. Darth Vader does not exist. He has no story.
You're saying Sasuke's story is really Madara's, so Vader's is really Sidious' then. According to you.

Sorry, grown kind of tired of this debate xD

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Yes, it's very obvious. But look at it this way...you're saying Anikan doesn't exist. Darth Vader does not exist. He has no story.
You're saying Sasuke's story is really Madara's, so Vader's is really Sidious' then. According to you.
How does this mean he doesn't exist
it merely means that the plot is not his

However in this case Darth Vader/Anikin is similar yes

Anikin was the protagonist for the First three movies (Antagonist at the end of third and the first was all about his discovery etc) which differs from Sasuke who was less the main focus next to Naruto but still pretty much the Focus of attention between the two
The Second Trilogy was about Luke Skywalker (Aka Naruto) with the Emperor (Aka Madara) as the Primary Leader of the plot and Darth Vader (Aka Sasuke)
Darth Vader was not the main villain of the Plot but still a character with his own sub-plot of redemption etc and a major role to play

In fact the parallel stands when you think that Darth Vader was ultimately (In the emperors eyes) expendable and the domination thing could only end with the death of the Emperor much like how Sasuke could die without Madaras plan being stopped and yet the death of Madara is necessary to stop the main threat and plot

[Jαckums]

You're basically saying that if a character is not running the plot, they're not main.

Therefore you could just remove every character in the manga besides Naruto, Madara and KB, seeing as they're all that's needed for the continuation of the story. That's b/s logic. Sasuke is main, only second to Naruto. It doesn't matter who's the one controlling, manipulating, etc. The entire manga has been centered around Team 7, specifically Naruto and Sasuke. Your argument of "if you remove 'x', the plot will still go on. If you remove 'y', it won't", is just you pointing out who's currently running the plot. That doesn't take away from the fact that the manga is about Naruto and Sasuke, and their growth/development on different paths.

You're making up your own definitions of what 'main' is to support your argument. Get out, please.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

You're basically saying that if a character is not running the plot, they're not main.
If a Character is not involved in the main plot then how are they a main charater?

Main Plot=Main Characters
Side Plots=Side/Minor Characters

Main characters can be part of side plots
Side characters can be partof the main plot
But Side characters are not important to the main plot unlike main characters

And lets not forget Auxilliary characters who are those who get alot of screen time and are attached to the main characters without being really all that main character-ish


Therefore you could just remove every character in the manga besides Naruto, Madara and KB, seeing as they're all that's needed for the continuation of the story.
No because then the story would be really boring

That's b/s logic.
Indeed so
Glad no-one here wants to do that

Sasuke is main, only second to Naruto.
He was
Now he is merely a side plot

side plot
as in a plot on the side

It doesn't matter who's the one controlling, manipulating, etc. The entire manga has been centered around Team 7,
And yet half of Team 7 are now minor or auxilliary characters
Go figure ae
actually something like this
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemotedToExtra

specifically Naruto and Sasuke.
Now Naruto and Madara
Kinda important to remember the whole Minato/Kushina/Madara/Kyuubi/Naruto thing being built up

Your argument of "if you remove 'x', the plot will still go on. If you remove 'y', it won't", is just you pointing out who's currently running the plot.
Yeeeees
the Current main characters

Congratulations on taking an abstract concept completely out of context as well

That doesn't take away from the fact that the manga is about Naruto and Sasuke, and their growth/development on different paths.
Which will culminate in Sasuke and Naruto blah blah blah
Sasuke was a Main Character
Naruto always is the Main Character (Until some dramatic Shamalanian story twist)

Sasuke is NOT the main villain
Will he be? who knows
Until he is then he is NOT the Main villain and is currently an auxilliary villain the barely qualifies above henchman designation

You're making up your own definitions of what 'main' is to support your argument. Get out, please.
What is a Main Character?
Define it for me please my good man
Or are you just defining "Main Character" to support your own view?

Lets cut the hypocrisy and provide a suitable, coherant and most of all consistent definition of what a main character is
My definition suffers from being broad and unspecific but IMO it suffices to cover the general scope occupied by main characters
How will yours fare?

Edit: actually this one is pretty good if a little vague
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MainCharacters

and once again excludes the idea that Villains are main characters
Edit 2: Hey they have one for Sasuke
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/IgnorantOfTheirOwnIgnorance
I guess this also fits Sasuke
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GenericDoomsdayVillain?from=Main.InvincibleVillain

Here's one for Nagato
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/WellIntentionedExtremist

ahahahaha
good one summing Naruto and Sasuke
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyrWithoutACause

[Jαckums]

No. Your entire argument is wrong. A main character is someone the series is about.

The manga is about Naruto's and Sasuke's growth (Naruto becoming Hokage, 'saving' Sasuke, Sasuke's path of revenge, etc). I don't know where you got the idea that a main character has to be running the primary plot to be main. The manga is about both Naruto and Sasuke. It has been ever since the beginning.

Whether Sasuke was sitting in a cave in the middle of nowhere or heading Madara's plan on his own, he's still a main character, because the manga is about him and Naruto, as it has always been. Just GTFO, seriously. Your logic is total rubbish. I'm not replying to you anymore because you're completely warping the concept of main character to suit yourself.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

No. Your entire argument is wrong. A main character is someone the series is about.
This manga is about and has been about alot of things
It has been about Naruto, Sasuke, Jiraiya, Minato, Madara, Tsunade, Shikamaru, Neji etc etc etc

What the manga is about?
If we cut out the chaff we are Left with Naruto (Strictly Speaking it can't be any less "About" any other character)
Add in his current and Back Stories Madara then becomes Main
Sasuke currently does only as a rather unused plot that hasn't gone anywhere
Frogs do as well (From the previous arc) as this is all "About" a prophecy
Heck even Kyuubi then counts as a major character rather then a device

Your logic is total rubbish.
I provided a definition and even critiqued it myself
I provided arguments for my view
I provided examples of this definition in other mediums to show it is a semi consistent one
I explained and expanded it to cover Naruto

You on the other hand
Provide no evidence
No argument
No definitions
and no substance whatsover to your post

Have a smily:cool:

I'm not replying to you anymore because you're completely warping the concept of main character to suit yourself.
You barely have a concept of a main character
Post your definition and not some vague reference to "Aboutness" which means that Naruto has like 50 main characters

[MinatoNamikaze]

In all honesty, the man character in the book is Naruto. While jackums does have a point, sasuke is more of a secondary character. Naruto is the person the ppl reading the manga are behind and that usually is main character

[Mattus]

In all honesty, the man character in the book is Naruto. While jackums does have a point, sasuke is more of a secondary character. Naruto is the person the ppl reading the manga are behind and that usually is main character

Naruto is the title character. That does not mean there can be only one main character. I almost always hate series named after the main character because it is always 100% about that character and it's never THAT great of a character. The main characters are clearly Naruto and Sasuke, the story is not about JUST Naruto.

[Dreamer]

^ I agree.

We have arcs dedicated to Sasuke where Naruto completely disappears from the manga. Both share the spotlight. Naruto might play a bit of a bigger role, but Sasuke should definitely be considered a main character.

[Mattus]

^ I agree.

We have arcs dedicated to Sasuke where Naruto completely disappears from the manga. Both share the spotlight. Naruto might play a bit of a bigger role, but Sasuke should definitely be considered a main character.

QFT.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Naruto is the title character. That does not mean there can be only one main character.
Yeah I agree

I almost always hate series named after the main character because it is always 100% about that character and it's never THAT great of a character.
Some title characters are

The main characters are clearly Naruto and Sasuke, the story is not about JUST Naruto.
I guess we are simply using different definitions

[Mattus]

I guess we are simply using different definitions

I still don't understand your definition. Characters that affect the plot are main characters and Sasuke clearly affects the plot yet you dismiss everything he is relevant to.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

I still don't understand your definition. Characters that affect the plot are main characters and Sasuke clearly affects the plot yet you dismiss everything he is relevant to.
Apart from his vague connection through prophecy
What is Sasukes relevance to the main plot?

Madara is driving it
Sasuke is a pawn in it ATM
He is not a major player (Despite the overhyping we are getting)

[Mattus]

Apart from his vague connection through prophecy
What is Sasukes relevance to the main plot?

Madara is driving it
Sasuke is a pawn in it ATM
He is not a major player (Despite the overhyping we are getting)

Sasuke has never once ever been overhyped. Overhated all the time. Overhyped? I don't believe I recall an instance.

He is without a doubt a major player, denying that proves your incredible bias and lack of knowledge regarding the manga.

Madara is driving it, sure. At the moment. Sasuke is not Madara's pawn however as it's been expressed that Sasuke intends to betray Madara once the deed is done, as does Madara. Kabuto and Naruto are also heavily involved in Sasuke's plot as will be the Elders and Sakura, soon enough.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Sasuke has never once ever been overhyped. Overhated all the time. Overhyped? I don't believe I recall an instance.
I'm talking his "destroy everythig with EMS" Suffering suffering cry cry
That overhyping
making him seem more powerful/important then he is

He is without a doubt a major player, denying that proves your incredible bias and lack of knowledge regarding the manga.
Prove it then
What is his major play?

destroy the village......but thats Madaras plan and not Sasukes
EMS......Madaras plan
Danzou......Madaras plan

if you look at it Sasuke has been doing everything he has been told since the Itachi fight

Madara is driving it, sure. At the moment.
And when he isn't I will revise the characters asessments

Sasuke is not Madara's pawn however as it's been expressed that Sasuke intends to betray Madara once the deed is done, as does Madara.
This doesn't mean he isn't a pawn
Considering he has been led by the nose every step of the way first by itachi and Then Madara
Really what has Sasuke done that others haven't simply made him do?
He is a major character only when working for other more Major characters

Kabuto and Naruto are also heavily involved in Sasuke's plot as will be the Elders and Sakura, soon enough.
The kabutomaru is a minor subplot only recently reintroduced and currently going nowhere
AS For Sasuke until his plot leaves the machinations of madara then he is nothing more then a lackey
regardless of who else is drawn into MADARAS plot, Sasuke will remain a mere lackey

[Mattus]

I'm talking his "destroy everythig with EMS" Suffering suffering cry cry
That overhyping
making him seem more powerful/important then he is

That's the point...


Prove it then
What is his major play?

destroy the village......but thats Madaras plan and not Sasukes
EMS......Madaras plan
Danzou......Madaras plan
if you look at it Sasuke has been doing everything he has been told since the Itachi fight

Destroy the village is Sasuke's as well.
And who the hell cares? That's like saying Darth Vader isn't a main character because he wasn't in charge, fuck off with that. Just because he is taking orders does not mean he is not a main character. That bullshit is like saying because Kisame listens to Itachi that Itachi is stronger.


This doesn't mean he isn't a pawn

This is irrelevant either way. Being a pawn does not mean you cannot be a main character.


Considering he has been led by the nose every step of the way first by itachi and Then Madara
Really what has Sasuke done that others haven't simply made him do?
He is a major character only when working for other more Major characters

Madara is not a more important character than Sasuke. Hellz to the no.
Seriously, gtfo with that bullshit.

Itachi and Madara are not more important than Sasuke.
That's like saying Kakashi and Jiriaya are more important because they were showing Naruto what to do. You don't like Sasuke, and that's all there is to this.


The kabutomaru is a minor subplot only recently reintroduced and currently going nowhere

It's clearly not minor nor a subplot. Read again.


AS For Sasuke until his plot leaves the machinations of madara then he is nothing more then a lackey
regardless of who else is drawn into MADARAS plot, Sasuke will remain a mere lackey

I know you don't like him but you must stop being wrong every time Sasuke's name is mentioned. Just stop debating in a thread that has the word Sasuke in it until you can control your mind and stop the bullshit before it comes out....

[Toastykins]

Madara is not a more important character than Sasuke. Hellz to the no.
Seriously, gtfo with that bullshit.

That... is actually pretty debatable. When you think about it, the Narutoverse is in the predicament it's in right now because of Madara. Without Madara, the entirety of Naruto never would've happened. He may not have been directly involved until Part 2, but that isn't to say he didn't play a hugely important role in shaping everything. Sasuke gets more air time, but Madara's as important/main a character as Sasuke or Kakashi are.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

That's the point...
That he is overhyped?

Destroy the village is Sasuke's as well.
Only if you forget who conveniently pointed Sasuke at it


And who the hell cares? That's like saying Darth Vader isn't a main character because he wasn't in charge, fuck off with that.
Considering his final contribution Darth Vader is currently in a different league from Sasuke

Just because he is taking orders does not mean he is not a main character. That bullshit is like saying because Kisame listens to Itachi that Itachi is stronger.
This doesn't even make sense

This is irrelevant either way. Being a pawn does not mean you cannot be a main character.

No it doesn't always mean that (I remember the game GTA3 had that with he plot being the life of a henchman basically)
But in this case he is just following along behind other characters in terms of the plot

Madara is not a more important character than Sasuke. Hellz to the no.
Eliminate Sasuke and the plot is basically unaffected (We lose the whole rescue Sasuke but little else)
Lose Madara and most of the plot comes crashing down
no war
no major villain plans
no real threats


Itachi and Madara are not more important than Sasuke.
Itachi isn't
As the current main villain Madara most definately is one of the most important characters driving the plot

That's like saying Kakashi and Jiriaya are more important because they were showing Naruto what to do.
But they aren't

It's clearly not minor nor a subplot. Read again.
He shows up for a third of a chapter
we get vague foreshadowing
and then he stands in the background smiling until now
Yep
Miss anything?

I know you don't like him but you must stop being wrong every time Sasuke's name is mentioned.
Wrong according to what?
Are you finally gonna give me the objective analysis you keep promising?

[Mattus]

That... is actually pretty debatable. When you think about it, the Narutoverse is in the predicament it's in right now because of Madara. Without Madara, the entirety of Naruto never would've happened. He may not have been directly involved until Part 2, but that isn't to say he didn't play a hugely important role in shaping everything. Sasuke gets more air time, but Madara's as important/main a character as Sasuke or Kakashi are.

Important to the events in the story sure, but main character does not mean essential to the plot of the story. Otherwise Crocodile and Enel would be main characters and the random villains from FMA would be main characters. Sasuke has been one of the main characters since the very beginning.

[Toastykins]

Madara may not have always been around in person, but we've seen the fruits of his labors in the form of the Kyuubi attack and Naruto's status as a Jinchuriki, Akatsuki, etc. And now that he IS out and about in person, he's solidified his role as one of the main characters by taking on the role of the series' main antagonist. He wasn't always a main character, but at this point, he is.

[Mattus]

Only if you forget who conveniently pointed Sasuke at it

Who the hell cares? It was still Sasuke's plan.


Considering his final contribution Darth Vader is currently in a different league from Sasuke

No. He isn't. Same exact scenario. Both actually main characters but according to your logic, if they are taking orders and being manipulated they cannot be main characters.


This doesn't even make sense

No, it makes perfect sense. You are saying because he is being manipulated and taking orders he cannot be a main character. I gave an example that was just as idiotic.


No it doesn't always mean that (I remember the game GTA3 had that with he plot being the life of a henchman basically)
But in this case he is just following along behind other characters in terms of the plot

Yes because the plot currently is focusing on Madara...but that doesn't mean he isn't a main character...that's like saying Naruto wasn't a main character during the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight. No, he just wasn't fucking shown.


Eliminate Sasuke and the plot is basically unaffected (We lose the whole rescue Sasuke but little else)
Lose Madara and most of the plot comes crashing down
no war
no major villain plans
no real threats

:facepalm:

Eliminate Powell and McClane's wife and nothing really happens but hey, they were still main characters.(Die Hard)

Eliminate Uyru and all that happens is Maruyi isn't defeated, but he was still a main character.(Bleach)

Eliminate Chandler, and Pheobe still gets married.(Friends)

He isn't the main villain and he isn't the main protagonist but he was a main character from the beginning and has remained as such since then. Just because he is not the main villain does not make him an unimportant character. Naruto's personal goals directly involve Sasuke. That counts for nothing?


Itachi isn't
As the current main villain Madara most definately is one of the most important characters driving the plot

He's the only character really driving the plot, he's the main villain...that's how that works.


But they aren't

According to you they are.


He shows up for a third of a chapter
we get vague foreshadowing
and then he stands in the background smiling until now
Yep
Miss anything?

Yeah, everything.

He shows up for a third of a chapter after establishing his intentions to kill Sasuke.
He reveals that he has summoned all of the deceased Akatsuki members and reveals one more person that remains unknown to that.
He then teams up with the main villain and plans on destroying Konoha and betraying one of the main characters.

You missed a lot.


Wrong according to what?
Are you finally gonna give me the objective analysis you keep promising?

What objective analysis?

---------- Post added at 08:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:49 PM ----------


Madara may not have always been around in person, but we've seen the fruits of his labors in the form of the Kyuubi attack and Naruto's status as a Jinchuriki, Akatsuki, etc. And now that he IS out and about in person, he's solidified his role as one of the main characters by taking on the role of the series' main antagonist. He wasn't always a main character, but at this point, he is.

I'm aware at this point he is. And yes, he is now more important to the plot than Sasuke but hell, he's more important to the plot than anyone, including Naruto. The plot right now is to destroy Konoha and extract the 8-tailed beast. Naruto is not the target of Madara, Sasuke, or Kabuto at the moment.
If we're talking the series and not just the main plot however, Sasuke clearly is a main character. I'm not arguing against Madara's importance, I'm simply stating that it's pretty damn obvious that Sasuke is a main character.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Who the hell cares? It was still Sasuke's plan.
If someone else manipulated him to doing it
then it isn't his plan is it
it is someone elses plan

No. He isn't. Same exact scenario. Both actually main characters but according to your logic, if they are taking orders and being manipulated they cannot be main characters.
Considering I never said that this makes no sense
In Sasukes case he is merely doing nothing of his own will (Doing exactly what he is told)
Vader however had that interesting bit at the end
remember the whole bring balance to the force spiel
That was kinda important

You are saying because he is being manipulated and taking orders he cannot be a main character. I gave an example that was just as idiotic.
However your example was not the same
A subordinate taking orders is natural
Being manipulated and thinking you are in control when you are really just a pawn.....that is Sasuke

Yes because the plot currently is focusing on Madara...but that doesn't mean he isn't a main character...that's like saying Naruto wasn't a main character during the Itachi vs. Sasuke fight. No, he just wasn't fucking shown.
No
Side plots can see main characters not appear or hardly appear
Like the whole Kakuzu/Hidan arc
Naruto was still the main character despite getting as much screen time
However Shikamaru was not the mangas main character at any point

Don't confuse plot lines

Eliminate Powell and McClane's wife and nothing really happens but hey, they were still main characters.(Die Hard)
Which one was Powell?


Eliminate Uyru and all that happens is Maruyi isn't defeated, but he was still a main character.(Bleach)
I'll take your word for it?
Was he the Bull Guy?


Eliminate Chandler, and Pheobe still gets married.(Friends)
Ummm good for her?
Never watched friends

He isn't the main villain
Ok we agree here

and he isn't the main protagonist
Agree again

but he was a main character from the beginning
I agree he was a main character in the beginning

and has remained as such since then.
Here is the disagreement

Just because he is not the main villain does not make him an unimportant character.
No it doesn't
Don't confuse Main character with important
Minor/Auxilliary characters can be just as important (without them the plot becomes rather sparse)

They are just not the Main characters

in a way every character is important if only for the fact that a stroy revolves around diversity
But some are more/less important and some become so over time

Naruto's personal goals directly involve Sasuke. That counts for nothing?
A little

He shows up for a third of a chapter after establishing his intentions to kill Sasuke.
Which is a continuation of a looooooong plot that has had only limited use in the whole of shippuden with no success so far

He reveals that he has summoned all of the deceased Akatsuki members and reveals one more person that remains unknown to that.
Hence "Vague Foreshadowing"

He then teams up with the main villain and plans on destroying Konoha and betraying one of the main characters.
Which is a continuation of the preskip plotline
congrats he continued a stagnating plotline and introduced some vague foreshadowing

[Mattus]

If someone else manipulated him to doing it
then it isn't his plan is it
it is someone elses plan

Yes but that's still HIS plot.


Considering I never said that this makes no sense
In Sasukes case he is merely doing nothing of his own will (Doing exactly what he is told)
Vader however had that interesting bit at the end
remember the whole bring balance to the force spiel
That was kinda important

You heavily implied it throughout your last posts and including this post as well.
Vader did the same exact thing, you however are including the knowledge from Episode 6, I am referring to Episode's 3, 4, and 5.


However your example was not the same
A subordinate taking orders is natural
Being manipulated and thinking you are in control when you are really just a pawn.....that is Sasuke

Sasuke thinks he is in control of everything? I don't recall.


No
Side plots can see main characters not appear or hardly appear
Like the whole Kakuzu/Hidan arc
Naruto was still the main character despite getting as much screen time
However Shikamaru was not the mangas main character at any point

According to you he was. That was the plot then, Naruto wasn't in it, he must not have been a main character.


Which one was Powell?

The cop outside the plaza talking to McClane.


I'll take your word for it?
Was he the Bull Guy?

With the horns? Yeah.


Ummm good for her?
Never watched friends

I was giving examples of how despite being a main character, so-and-so had no real effect on a specific plot or the plot in its entirety.


I agree he was a main character in the beginning


It's funny because he's gotten more development and screen time in Part II.


Which is a continuation of the preskip plotline
congrats he continued a stagnating plotline and introduced some vague foreshadowing

It's a continuation? Kabuto going after Sasuke, teaming up with the villain we were not even aware of and threatening to destroy Konoha after his master just destroyed it is a continuation of Pre-Skip plotline?

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Yes but that's still HIS plot.
Agreed
It is (At least part of) his plot
but that is just part of the main plot

Vader did the same exact thing, you however are including the knowledge from Episode 6, I am referring to Episode's 3, 4, and 5.

Why should I ignore 6?
But yes alot of things could be seen as Vader not being the main character for much of it
But not really considering he was the prominant bad guy for much of it with the emperor not being a factor

Sasuke thinks he is in control of everything? I don't recall.
He supposedly is going to revolt after doing his plans correct?

According to you he was. That was the plot then, Naruto wasn't in it, he must not have been a main character.

I covered this in a earlier post
Side plots can see minor characters put to the fore
the Main plot and main characters remain unchanged (At the time we probably could say the main characters was more ambiguous tho)

The cop outside the plaza talking to McClane.
and you would call him a main character?

With the horns? Yeah.
Covered in side plots post

I was giving examples of how despite being a main character, so-and-so had no real effect on a specific plot or the plot in its entirety.
Friends however (And I speak from a very limited knowledge here) had a very discontinuous and disjointed (and at times episodic) plot did it not?

It's funny because he's gotten more development and screen time in Part II.
I think he got more development preskip
Post skip he has just become rather basic and bland

It's a continuation? Kabuto going after Sasuke, teaming up with the villain we were not even aware of and threatening to destroy Konoha after his master just destroyed it is a continuation of Pre-Skip plotline?
Orochimaru

[Mattus]

and you would call him a main character?

A main character or a very important supporting character. I'll have to go and revisit the movie, but to my knowledge he was a part of the movie after McClane's first or second kill. And also, he's listed as a main character.


I think he got more development preskip
Post skip he has just become rather basic and bland

That's your opinion. I don't get what you mean by bland still but okay.



Orochimaru

Mashed Potatoes.
Are we done saying things that have no effect on the previous post?

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

A main character or a very important supporting character. I'll have to go and revisit the movie, but to my knowledge he was a part of the movie after McClane's first or second kill. And also, he's listed as a main character
Again tho everyone is defining main character different
and don't say they aren't cos you remember the result of finding definitions for "main character"

That's your opinion. I don't get what you mean by bland still but okay.

preskip he was interesting
Post skip he is just the same thing over and over IMO

Mashed Potatoes.
Are we done saying things that have no effect on the previous post?
Ummm what?
Orochimaru Subplot
Kabuto Fuses himself with Oro and now continues that subplot to the point we see now

[Mattus]

Again tho everyone is defining main character different
and don't say they aren't cos you remember the result of finding definitions for "main character"

Yes but these are the people whose story it is. They say so and so is a main character, he/she is a main character.


preskip he was interesting
Post skip he is just the same thing over and over IMO

Because he changed...and it's not the same thing, he's changed during part II as well.


Ummm what?
Orochimaru Subplot
Kabuto Fuses himself with Oro and now continues that subplot to the point we see now

No. Kabuto...he fused Oro's cells with him, not his brain.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Yes but these are the people whose story it is. They say so and so is a main character, he/she is a main character.
Again we are simply back to definitions of main characters


Because he changed...and it's not the same thing, he's changed during part II as well.
He hasn't changed all that much
Sure he has changed focus etc
but overall his character is pretty much the same as at the start of post skip

No. Kabuto...he fused Oro's cells with him, not his brain.
same general Look (The snake theme)
same Techniques
same Goal

Yeah no Oro influence at all

[Mattus]

Again we are simply back to definitions of main characters

Not really. They say they are main characters, they are.
And by your definition there are only two main characters and Naruto was never ACTUALLY a main character.


same general Look (The snake theme)
same Techniques
same Goal

Yeah no Oro influence at all

Same general look - Kabuto.
Same techniques - New summons + Kabuto's techniques
Same Goal - Kill Sasuke.

Yeah you're right, Orochimaru looked like Kabuto, summoned Pain, Deidara, Kakuzu, and company, fought Sarutobi, destroyed Konoha, then kill Sasuke. No actually all he did was destroy Konoha.

I'm not sure how you are failing to understand this...it's pretty simple. Kabuto wants to kill Sasuke. That's it. Did Oro? No? Kthx.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Not really. They say they are main characters, they are.
So now main character is purely at the discretion of whoever is writing and there is not coherant definition?

And by your definition there are only two main characters and Naruto was never ACTUALLY a main character.

How do you figure?

Same general look - Kabuto.
Kabuto never had snake scales, a snake tail or snake eyes

Same techniques - New summons + Kabuto's techniques
Kabuto never had Edo Tensei or Snake abilities
Those were Oro's techs

Same Goal - Kill Sasuke.
Continuation of the subplot

Yeah you're right, Orochimaru looked like Kabuto,
Now you are just taking this to an extreme
Kabutomaru is the amalgamation of Kabuto+Oro
Oro is heavily influencing his henchman (Who really didn't need much influencing) and thus continuing his original plot

The rest is just going too far and taking it out of context

I'm not sure how you are failing to understand this...it's pretty simple. Kabuto wants to kill Sasuke. That's it. Did Oro? No?
Since you seem to love being technical Oro did want to kill Sasuke
That was the point

As to it being like this we have yet to see where this subplot is going
Hence....foreshadowing

[Mattus]

So now main character is purely at the discretion of whoever is writing and there is not coherant definition?

Purely? No. But if they say, hey, this guy is a main character. Unless it is painfully obvious that he isn't(like Plo Koon or Ki-Adi-Mundi), usually it's true.


How do you figure?

You say main characters are those who directly influence the plot. Madara is the only one advancing the plot, he is creating the problems, thus creating the plot.


Kabuto never had snake scales, a snake tail or snake eyes

Kabuto never had Edo Tensei or Snake abilities
Those were Oro's techs

Continuation of the subplot

Now you are just taking this to an extreme
Kabutomaru is the amalgamation of Kabuto+Oro
Oro is heavily influencing his henchman (Who really didn't need much influencing) and thus continuing his original plot

The rest is just going too far and taking it out of context

Since you seem to love being technical Oro did want to kill Sasuke
That was the point

As to it being like this we have yet to see where this subplot is going
Hence....foreshadowing

Good job ignoring the part that proves this wrong. Orochimaru is dead. His cells are fused into Kabuto, not his mentality nor his brain. Since you seem to love being incorrect, Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body, not his death.

If you were aware that Kabuto wanted to team up with Madara, destroy Konoha, and had in his possession all the deceased Akatsuki members then you are beyond a genius. But you didn't.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Purely? No. But if they say, hey, this guy is a main character. Unless it is painfully obvious that he isn't(like Plo Koon or Ki-Adi-Mundi), usually it's true.
but then again we are presupposing a definition of "Main character" exists
Without one we can't tell who is painfully obvious or not

You say main characters are those who directly influence the plot. Madara is the only one advancing the plot, he is creating the problems, thus creating the plot.
Naruto is the main protagonist and primary character of the main plot
the whole story is esentially his

So yes he is influential to the plot

Good job ignoring the part that proves this wrong. Orochimaru is dead.
Just like he was "Dead" after being killed by Sasuke?

His cells are fused into Kabuto, not his mentality nor his brain.
I think you are trying to say mind
because his brain is part of his body

Orochimaru wanted Sasuke's body, not his death.

Which would kill Sasuke
Hence Oro's overall plot involved Sasuke dying

If you were aware that Kabuto wanted to team up with Madara, destroy Konoha, and had in his possession all the deceased Akatsuki members then you are beyond a genius. But you didn't.
How is this relevant to whether or not Oro is directly influencing kabuto ATM?

[Mattus]

but then again we are presupposing a definition of "Main character" exists
Without one we can't tell who is painfully obvious or not

From what I've found, it does exist but by definition we are both wrong. Here's why it's so hard to judge.

TV Shows/Movies - Tell us and make it obvious who is a main character and who isn't.
Novels/Stories - Tell us who the main character is and focuses on that one character throughout the story.

Manga is a mixture of TV and Story.

Also, by definition, only protagonists can be main characters.


Naruto is the main protagonist and primary character of the main plot
the whole story is esentially his

Technically? Not really. What's happening now, is not his plot. Before yes, it was his. Now? Not so much.


Just like he was "Dead" after being killed by Sasuke?
I think you are trying to say mind
because his brain is part of his body


Okay, so is this the same case? We don't know. You can't say.


Which would kill Sasuke
Hence Oro's overall plot involved Sasuke dying


But that was not his goal...otherwise he would've just killed him.


How is this relevant to whether or not Oro is directly influencing kabuto ATM?

It was before you changed the subject to just that.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

From what I've found, it does exist but by definition we are both wrong. Here's why it's so hard to judge.

TV Shows/Movies - Tell us and make it obvious who is a main character and who isn't.
Novels/Stories - Tell us who the main character is and focuses on that one character throughout the story.

Manga is a mixture of TV and Story
but this still doesn't tell us how to find the main character

Also, by definition, only protagonists can be main characters.

So Sasuke isn't a main character then?


Technically? Not really. What's happening now, is not his plot. Before yes, it was his. Now? Not so much.
When factoring in the whole child of destiny bit and the Kyuubi Bijuu part (making him the crux of madaras plan) he is pretty central and the lot of Madaras intimately involves naruto since his birth
Now you may ask why I don't include Sasuke as the prophecy bit but this is because his role was undefined and vague in this context


Okay, so is this the same case? We don't know. You can't say.
considering kabutos growth......

But that was not his goal...otherwise he would've just killed him.
Is the timing of death making a difference?
Oro ultimately planned to kill sasuke

It was before you changed the subject to just that.
Oro's subplot
Oros continuation of Said subplot through the manipulation of a henchman

[Mattus]

So Sasuke isn't a main character then?

According to definition. Neither is Madara...Neither was Zabuza...
So as you can tell, definition is wrong.


Is the timing of death making a difference?
Oro ultimately planned to kill sasuke

No. He planned to take his body. Yes, that would've killed him. But that was not his plan.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

According to definition. Neither is Madara...Neither was Zabuza...
So as you can tell, definition is wrong.
yeah

No. He planned to take his body. Yes, that would've killed him. But that was not his plan.
*sigh*

[Mattus]

Kabuto - I'm going to kill Sasuke.
Orochimaru - I'm going to take his body.

See the difference now?

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Kabuto - I'm going to kill Sasuke.
Orochimaru - I'm going to take his body.

See the difference now?
Can we know that Kabutomaru isn't planning on taking his body?
Is he capable of taking his body?
Again Kabutomarus plans are kinda vague

[Mattus]

I believe his plans were to just kill Sasuke in order to avenge Orochimaru.

See: Long ass fucking time ago....in a town called Kickapoo...

[Kankurotto]

As powerful Kabuto already is, I see no reason for him to pursue his body anyway.

In terms of abilities, I'd assume that Kabuto is already good on his own, fo' sho'.

[HeavenOnEarth]

I got a couple quotes that u can put for sasuke
"If you think I'm just a foolish kid ruled by his emotions, that's fine. Following Itachi's path would be childish, the whispering of fools who don't know hatred. If anyone else tries to ridicule the way I live, I'll slaughter everyone they ever cared about. And then maybe they'll understand what it's like to taste... a little of my hatred."

"I have long since closed my eyes... My only goal is in the darkness."

"Naruto... it's too late, nothing you can say will change me! I'm going to kill you and every last person in your beloved village! It's time to make your choice! Kill me and become a hero, or die at my hand and become another one of my victims!"