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Thread: Itachi and Kisame vs. Pein Rikudou

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    Quote Originally Posted by MinatoNamikaze View Post
    Interesting what makes you think pein can counter MS?

    Anyway, i was just thinking genjutsu would screw up Pein. Because they all share the same vision, they would all see the illusion and tsukiyommi would affect them all. So actually Itachi could possibly do it himslef if pein cant fight without looking into his eyes
    Sharing vision doesn't equal all being affected by genjutsu. They're still separate bodies. Using Tsukiyomi on one would only result in being pummeled from 5 different directions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
    Sharing vision doesn't equal all being affected by genjutsu. They're still separate bodies. Using Tsukiyomi on one would only result in being pummeled from 5 different directions.
    no it wouldnt. They would ALL see the same thing actually. Besides they could react fast nough. It last for 1 second.



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    Quote Originally Posted by MinatoNamikaze View Post
    no it wouldnt. They would ALL see the same thing actually. Besides they could react fast nough. It last for 1 second.
    They share vision that doesn't mean they all have the same brain. If he uses Tsukiyomi then the other 5 won't just all fall at once.

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    Itachi isn't limited to just Tsukoyomi when it comes to genjutsu. He could use Sharingan genjutsu and turn Pein's bodies against each other. For example, make Shuradou Pein shoot missiles at other Peins. That way they could get rid of at least 2-3 bodies.
    Not only that, but it would also leave the bodies occupied and open to attacks like Amaterasu.

    Not to mention he has Kisame on his side here, who can endlessly spam Mizu bunshins and combo them with Suiro no jutsu (water prison). That way they could separate the bodies, allowing Itachi to fight them 1v1..
    Cold and callous... that's the prescription.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Smiley View Post
    Itachi isn't limited to just Tsukoyomi when it comes to genjutsu. He can use Sharingan genjutsu and turn Pein's bodies against each other. For example, make Shuradou Pein shoot missiles at other Peins. That way they could get rid of at least 2-3 bodies.
    Not just that, but that would also leave the bodies occupied and open to attacks like Amaterasu.
    Actually, if I remember correctly, I haven't ever seen Itachi trapping multiple people in genjutsu at a time.
    That aside, normal genjutsu is pretty easy to dispel, and with six Pein's there, I just can't see Itachi getting them all, even if he can capture multiple opponents (something which, as I've said before, he hasn't shown yet if my memory serves me right) he can maybe get three, but still, the others can easily dispel the thing.

    Not to mention he has Kisame on his side here, who can endlessly spam Mizu bunshins and combo them with Suiro no jutsu (water prison). That way they could separate the bodies, allowing Itachi to fight them 1v1..
    Again, Pein ain't gonna get stuck in the water-prison, he has 6 fields of vision, the guy can block even without looking.
    Animal Pein and the Asura Pein would easily beat Kisame. Those huge summons could easily distract Kisame while Asura used his missiles and what not. Plus offcourse, Asura's almost indestructible nature... Kisame would have just too much dismantling work on his hands alongwith the summons.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muffin View Post
    They share vision that doesn't mean they all have the same brain. If he uses Tsukiyomi then the other 5 won't just all fall at once.
    they woulndt all be hurt, but they would all see the Tsukiyomi world. That would lead all of them dazed and open for Kisame to strike. They could effectively take out 2 or 3 bodies before the fight even starts. That caped off with 2 amateratsu blasts taking out 2 other pein bodies, leaving a weakened but fighiting worhty Itachi and Kisame against Pein. Itachi could then use amateratsu again because he was able to use a sasuno which is much more taxing on his body. Actually it may not be to hard for them to win.



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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteFang View Post
    Actually, if I remember correctly, I haven't ever seen Itachi trapping multiple people in genjutsu at a time.
    .
    He doesn't necessarily have to have multiple Peins in genjutsu. Having Tendou Pein or Shuradou Pein (repelling and missile-shooting Pein which are possibly Pein's strongest bodies) turned against other bodies would leave them in a pretty bad situation. For example, that way they could easily get rid of Gakidou Pein (fat Pein, the one that absorbs ninjutsu).

    Secondly, even though it hasn't been directly said in the manga, it was indicated that Itachi can, in fact have multiple opponents in genjutsu at the same time. Remember Kakashi's first encounter with Itachi? Kakashi had no knowledge on Tsukoyomi. He only knew about normal Sharingan genjutsu (thus his surprise when he discovered that genjutsu occured in an instant). Well, if Itachi wasn't able to use genjutsu on more than one person at a time, then why did Kakashi tell Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes? If one of them was caught in genjutsu, the other could dispel it by injecting chakra in the other. The fact that he told them to close their eyes implied that Itachi could have them all trapped in his illusion at the same time.

    What I can tell for sure though, is that Itachi's Karasu Bunshin can cast genjutsu. (Itachi's clone genjutsu'd Naruto). So if he needed to have multiple Pein bodies in genjutsu he would definitely be able to, one way or another.

    That aside, normal genjutsu is pretty easy to dispel, and with six Pein's there, I just can't see Itachi getting them all, even if he can capture multiple opponents (something which, as I've said before, he hasn't shown yet if my memory serves me right) he can maybe get three, but still, the otherscan easily dispel the thing
    I don't know what you mean by normal genjutsu, but Sharingan genjutsu isn't easy to dispel. You have to train your eyes like Deidara did.

    Again, Pein ain't gonna get stuck in the water-prison, he has 6 fields of vision, the guy can block even without looking.
    Like I said, Kisame can utilize an insane number of Mizu bunshins. His 30% version had more chakra than Naruto. So if 300-400 Kisames all attacked Pein with the intention to trap his bodies in Suiro, I doubt they would all fail.
    Especially given that Kakashi and the fastest team in Konoha were not able to avoid it. At the very worst all those clones would serve as a decent distraction.

    Clones can also be used to learn about Pein's abilities, like Kakashi did. Except Kisame won't get tired so quickly.

    Animal Pein and the Asura Pein would easily beat Kisame. Those huge summons could easily distract Kisame while Asura used his missiles and what not. Plus offcourse, Asura's almost indestructible nature... Kisame would have just too much dismantling work on his hands alongwith the summons.
    Two things: Mizu bunshins and genjutsu.
    Cold and callous... that's the prescription.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smiley View Post
    He doesn't necessarily have to have multiple Peins in genjutsu. Having Tendou Pein or Shuradou Pein (repelling and missile-shooting Pein which are possibly Pein's strongest bodies) turned against other bodies would leave them in a pretty bad situation. For example, that way they could easily get rid of Gakidou Pein (fat Pein, the one that absorbs ninjutsu).
    Wait a minute. If, lets assume, Itachi gets one of the Pein's in sharingan genjutsu... then
    1. The other Pein's can dispel it by inserting chakra.
    2. How do you say that the bodies will destroy each other? Again, I'll say, if my memory serves me right, the one afflicted by the genjutsu is rooted to the spot. Itachi doesn't 'control' them. Just makes them see the illusion.
    Like, for instance, they were dead still in the Itachi-Sasuke battle.

    Secondly, even though it hasn't been directly said in the manga, it was indicated that Itachi can, in fact have multiple opponents in genjutsu at the same time. Remember Kakashi's first encounter with Itachi? Kakashi had no knowledge on Tsukoyomi. He only knew about normal Sharingan genjutsu (thus his surprise when he discovered that genjutsu occured in an instant). Well, if Itachi wasn't able to use genjutsu on more than one person at a time, then why did Kakashi tell Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes? If one of them was caught in genjutsu, the other could dispel it by injecting chakra in the other. The fact that he told them to close their eyes implied that Itachi could have them all trapped in his illusion at the same time.
    Kakashi had actually sensed that Itachi was about to do something badass and told the others to close their eyes. Also, he got a little high-headed there and thought he could himself handle the thing with sharingan.
    Its an implication of sorts, yes, however, I dunno how it effects its ability, and how he is when putting multiple people in genjutsu. It hasn't been shown after all. Its tough to assume.

    What I can tell for sure though, is that Itachi's Karasu Bunshin can cast genjutsu. (Itachi's clone genjutsu'd Naruto). So if he needed to have multiple Pein bodies in genjutsu he would definitely be able to, one way or another.
    But that was Pein's technique in the first place.
    Second time in the forest... yeah he did. However, that again is also wasting Itachi's chakra.. which he already does not have too much of... and he's facing six indestructible Peins.
    So I just don't see it definitely happening.
    Deva Pein alone will make all hell break lose, he has friggin' 5 sec charge up Susanoo like thing with him and it doesn't even drain his life.
    Itachi most probably would also need to use Bunshins to save himself from the relentless shockwaves... At this rate, he'll be out of chakra real soon

    I don't know what you mean by normal genjutsu, but Sharingan genjutsu isn't easy to dispel. You have to train your eyes like Deidara did.
    I meant inserting chakra.
    And Pein has the rinnengan after all, not saying he can dispel it... just saying for the heck of it.


    Like I said, Kisame can utilize an insane number of Mizu bunshins. His 30% version had more chakra than Naruto. So if 300-400 Kisames all attacked Pein with the intention to trap his bodies in Suiro, I doubt they would all fail.
    Okay first of all. Lets put the dynamics of this battle rather simply.
    Peins in the red corner and Itachi-Kisame in the blue corner.
    Now, to create those insane no. of Mizu Bunshins, Kisame will create a mini-lake. Which will automatically kill Itachi's chances of effective Katon techs.
    Second, animal Pein has huge summons, it wouldn't take much for those to thrash Mizu Bunshins with ease. Especially if we have Asura Pein firing missiles. Soul eating Pein (whoever that is, forgot his name..) trying to suck up their souls. Deva Pein using that shockwave thing and his repulsion and gravitation forces.

    Especially given that Kakashi
    It was against Zabuza. He was sorta rusty and caught unawares. The battle scenario was very different.
    and the fastest team in Konoha were not able to avoid it.
    Gai was able to. And I know the other 3 got trapped due to plot purposes.
    At the very worst all those clones would serve as a decent distraction.
    Best.
    Summons Vs Bunshins. That's all. One hit, bunshin gone.. summon still there.

    Clones can also be used to learn about Pein's abilities, like Kakashi did. Except Kisame won't get tired so quickly.
    We've only seen Kage Bunshins having that ability.
    Deidara's clay clones don't work that way, and neither did Kakashi's Raiton Bunshin seem to have that ability. We can't assume Mizu's serve the same purpose.. as unlike Kage Bunshin's they are made of water. Kakashi also specifically stated that Kage Bunshins were used for the purpose of recon etc.

    Two things: Mizu bunshins and genjutsu.
    Really won't work against the might they are fighting against here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteFang View Post
    Wait a minute. If, lets assume, Itachi gets one of the Pein's in sharingan genjutsu... then
    1. The other Pein's can dispel it by inserting chakra.
    This highly depends on which body is genjutsu'd. If Itachi plays it smart he'll pick Tendou(deva) or Shuradou(asura) Pein. Tendou can simply push away other Peins on a distance so they can't reach him, while Shuradou will spam them with rockets and lasers and it would be extremely hard to get close to him.
    Also, Pein won't know that his body was genjutsu'd until it starts attacking other bodies.

    2. How do you say that the bodies will destroy each other? Again, I'll say, if my memory serves me right, the one afflicted by the genjutsu is rooted to the spot. Itachi doesn't 'control' them. Just makes them see the illusion.
    Like, for instance, they were dead still in the Itachi-Sasuke battle.
    Itachi controlled Deidara into wrapping his own clay-centipede around himself..

    Kakashi had actually sensed that Itachi was about to do something badass and told the others to close their eyes. Also, he got a little high-headed there and thought he could himself handle the thing with sharingan.
    Its an implication of sorts, yes, however, I dunno how it effects its ability, and how he is when putting multiple people in genjutsu. It hasn't been shown after all. Its tough to assume.
    But tell me: why did Kakashi tell Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes? Apparently he knew Itachi was about to cast genjutsu. And since we know that genjutsu can "easily" be dispelled by inserting chakra in your comrade, why was it necessary for any of them to avoid making an eye contact with Itachi, if he could only have one person in genjutsu at a time?

    But that was Pein's technique in the first place.
    Second time in the forest... yeah he did. However, that again is also wasting Itachi's chakra.. which he already does not have too much of... and he's facing six indestructible Peins.
    We already know he is capable of making 3 Karasu Bunshins and still fight normally and use Mangekyou.

    So I just don't see it definitely happening.
    Deva Pein alone will make all hell break lose, he has friggin' 5 sec charge up Susanoo like thing with him and it doesn't even drain his life.
    Itachi most probably would also need to use Bunshins to save himself from the relentless shockwaves... At this rate, he'll be out of chakra real soon
    If they play it safe they won't just rush in without any knowledge.. If I were them I'd use some bunshins and strategies to gain knowledge on Pein's abilities first.

    IMO, Itachi is fast enough to blitz Tendou Pein in the interval of 5 secs. If he thinks he isn't capable of doing that, they can either use genjutsu on him(which is probably the smartest move) or have Kisame force him to use Shinra Tensei (say, with rapid Suiton attacks) then finish him with a fast attack like Amaterasu.

    I meant inserting chakra.
    And Pein has the rinnengan after all
    Kisame has samehada and is in the mood for shavin' some emo asses after all

    Okay first of all. Lets put the dynamics of this battle rather simply.
    Peins in the red corner and Itachi-Kisame in the blue corner.
    Now, to create those insane no. of Mizu Bunshins, Kisame will create a mini-lake. Which will automatically kill Itachi's chances of effective Katon techs.
    Not Amaterasu, though.

    Second, animal Pein has huge summons, it wouldn't take much for those to thrash Mizu Bunshins with ease. Especially if we have Asura Pein firing missiles. Soul eating Pein (whoever that is, forgot his name..) trying to suck up their souls. Deva Pein using that shockwave thing and his repulsion and gravitation forces.
    Sakura and Jiraiya both one hit KO'd one of Chikushudou Pein's summons, and Kisame can very likely do it as well (he easily overpowered base Gai, who then commented on his superhuman strength). And that was only his 30% version. Full strength Kisame would be more than three times stronger. Keep in mind that Mizu bunshins all have the same physical strength as the originals. Also, summons can be genjutsu'd and turned against Pein as well.

    Gai was able to. And I know the other 3 got trapped due to plot purposes.
    Suiro wasn't used on Gai.. You could say it's for plot purposes but they still weren't able to avoid it.

    Best.
    Summons Vs Bunshins. That's all. One hit, bunshin gone.. summon still there.
    I could say the same for summons. One hit, summon gone, bunshin still there. D:

    We've only seen Kage Bunshins having that ability.
    Deidara's clay clones don't work that way, and neither did Kakashi's Raiton Bunshin seem to have that ability. We can't assume Mizu's serve the same purpose.. as unlike Kage Bunshin's they are made of water. Kakashi also specifically stated that Kage Bunshins were used for the purpose of recon etc.
    How do you know about Raiton Bunshin? Kakashi seemed to have figured Pein's abilities with his clone.. Although it was a Rai Kage Bunshin, a kage bunshin variation not a whole other clone technique.

    How do you kow Deidara's clay clone didn't have that ability? I remember that he was aware that he Jibaku bunshin failed to kill team Gai..
    Cold and callous... that's the prescription.

  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smiley View Post
    This highly depends on which body is genjutsu'd. If Itachi plays it smart he'll pick Tendou(deva) or Shuradou(asura) Pein. Tendou can simply push away other Peins on a distance so they can't reach him, while Shuradou will spam them with rockets and lasers and it would be extremely hard to get close to him.
    But how in the world will Itachi know which one to get?
    Its not like he'll have time to calculate, think, and figure out Pein's abilities with atleast three of them coming out to get him.

    Also, Pein won't know that his body was genjutsu'd until it starts attacking other bodies.
    That's again highly debatable. They share the visions.. so they know what's happening with each other. We don't know how exactly the six-paths work, so whether or not Pein will/won't know is best left untouched right now.


    Itachi controlled Deidara into wrapping his own clay-centipede around himself..
    That's right. I rechecked that. Thanks. xD

    But tell me: why did Kakashi tell Asuma and Kurenai to close their eyes? Apparently he knew Itachi was about to cast genjutsu. And since we know that genjutsu can "easily" be dispelled by inserting chakra in your comrade, why was it necessary for any of them to avoid making an eye contact with Itachi, if he could only have one person in genjutsu at a time?
    Kakashi like I said, anticipated that something crazy was about to happen. Besides, it barely took a second for everything to take place.. Asuma and Kurenai didn't even have the time to react.
    That all aside, how do we know how effective Itachi is when putting multiple people in genjutsu and controlling them?
    And another important fact to realize is that the Pein's are dead bodies, being controlled by chakra transmitters from elsewhere.
    Technically, I don't think they "feel" anything, they are just puppets.. almost like Sasori. How effective genjutsu will be to completely disable them is very debatable. The ones Jiraiya killed got up again after all. Jiraiya was technically only able to destroy one and send it back to Konoha.
    Genjutsu is all about chakra control.. if the main controller guy (as we've found out from the latest chap) simply shuts off the chakra signal for a while.. the genjutsu will vanish.
    The entire effort, will only result in depletion of Itachi's chakra.

    We already know he is capable of making 3 Karasu Bunshins and still fight normally and use Mangekyou.
    That might have been one of the reasons he did have trouble keeping up with Sasuke's pace. I'll get the link if you wish.


    If they play it safe they won't just rush in without any knowledge.. If I were them I'd use some bunshins and strategies to gain knowledge on Pein's abilities first.
    They would try.. however, its not that easy, especially for Itachi, who clearly does not have enough chakra. And battling Pein for long periods is impossible, in a sense. Deva Pein will give them hell.. continuously repelling all their techs. whilst the other bodies will continue to attack.

    IMO, Itachi is fast enough to blitz Tendou Pein in the interval of 5 secs. If he thinks he isn't capable of doing that, they can either use genjutsu on him(which is probably the smartest move) or have Kisame force him to use Shinra Tensei (say, with rapid Suiton attacks) then finish him with a fast attack like Amaterasu.
    Naww. I don't think so. Even trying to get in close range against Deva is suicide. Itachi has primarily defensive battle stance, I have never seen his "blitzy" offense.. and especially don't think he's gonna get to God Pein. The other bodies are pretty adamant to protect him too.
    Itachi's biggest disadvantage here is that he simply isn't a fighter who can take long drawn out battles. Itachi's lethal moves are MS and only MS to battle someone the level of Pein. Else he has no variety and is rather unimpressive, aside from MS he just doesn't have enough to baffle Pein or even keep him occupied for that matter. He'll have to start with an MS move most probably, right off the bat, and we know already how much that drains him. His vision was blurry after Tsukuyomi and he barely could move after pulling Amaterasu.

    Kisame has samehada and is in the mood for shavin' some emo asses after all
    If he gets there. The emo's are hella strong.

    Not Amaterasu, though.
    That's right. Only Amaterasu. The other Katon attacks are nullified. Its just only further limiting Itachi's already limited arsenal beside the MS.
    And Amaterasu will hinder Kisame. Or anyone else on the battlefield who maybe trying to assist Itachi. Its only a comfortable move in one on one situations.
    Basically, Itachi and Kisame together aren't an ideal tag-team due to their antagonistic traits. Individually they are powerful, but putting them together, just doesn't magically make their power 2x, as they aren't as effective fighting alongside each other.

    Sakura and Jiraiya both one hit KO'd one of Chikushudou Pein's summons, and Kisame can very likely do it as well (he easily overpowered base Gai, who then commented on his superhuman strength). And that was only his 30% version. Full strength Kisame would be more than three times stronger. Keep in mind that Mizu bunshins all have the same physical strength as the originals. Also, summons can be genjutsu'd and turned against Pein as well.
    Kisame can nowhere near be compared to Sakura and J-man. The 3 shinobi are sooo different.
    Sakura can do that because her chakra control is exquisite and she has inherited Tsunade's insane strength which no one else in the manga possesses.
    Then J-man has always had the senjutsu training which as we saw, makes you as hard as a rock. Naruto wasn't hurt at all even after that massive fall.

    And I think Mizu bunshins have 1/10th the strength of the originals.. Zabuza said that I think, I could be wrong though. But anyways, Mizu bunshins are one-hit kills, as seen numerous times in the manga.

    And exactly how many things is Itachi gonna keep genjutsuing? He's really does not have too much chakra to spare. And how in the world will he and Kisame keep the coordination, Kisame may actually get caught in the fire or something. Whereas Pein's bodies are so damn well coordinated and their abilities compliment each other. Itachi and Kisame are like north pole and south pole, both in terms of abilities and battle styles and their nature.


    I could say the same for summons. One hit, summon gone, bunshin still there. D:
    That wouldn't be the case for Bunshins. A bunshin can't do what Sakura can.. that's just exaggeration. Its only gonna work if we have Kisame punching them around. And if Kisame alone gets occupied by just summons.. Itachi will be creamed by the remaining bodies.


    How do you know about Raiton Bunshin? Kakashi seemed to have figured Pein's abilities with his clone.. Although it was a Rai Kage Bunshin, a kage bunshin variation not a whole other clone technique.
    Kakashi also used his brain and observation.
    Plus it was a Rai-Kage Bunshin as you mentioned. A variant of the Kage Bunshin itself.

    How do you kow Deidara's clay clone didn't have that ability? I remember that he was aware that he Jibaku bunshin failed to kill team Gai..
    Well I say that because its never been said or implied that any other clones except Kage Bunshins have that ability. And Deidara could've simply observed that the explosion did not take place at all.
    Zabuza didn't indicate at all that the Mizu Bunshins had that ability and neither did Kisame.

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    Last Post: 09-20-2008, 11:24 PM
  3. itachi vs. kisame
    By narutoshippud in forum Naruto Dubbed
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