Narutos secret?

[Jackums]

This is getting annoying. Give me all of your questions then and we'll play "make theories to support our theories". Although, like I've explained, I can come up with as many answers as I want but it's not going to prove Sasuke has the Kyuubi. We need manga evidence of that. That's why I don't see the point in making up possible answers to all of the questions that are going to be answered in the manga, when/if it is revealed as truth.

Either way, you're overly persistent that it will, in some way, not be a pointless waste of time.

lol
No
Theories still use proof
If not it is nothing more then conjecture and thus is pointless

Manga-wise, no, they do not use proof.

The moment we get proof that supports it, it becomes manga fact.

Ok let me make this really really simple then
IF the 4th Hokage sealed the Kyuubi away
AND he split the Chakra sealing the light inside Naruto
LOGICALLY Minato then must have sealed the Dark half in something else
THEREFORE in order for the Dark half to be inside Sasuke it had to have either been sealed inside him by the forth which is ridiculous
OR Sealed inside himself and then the death God

SO LOGICALLY it must be in the death God
So how did it end up in Sasuke?

I've been over this more times than I've blinked. Read my previous posts over the last three or so pages before replying next and I won't have to keep repeating myself. I was assuming you had read all of this, which is why I wasn't explaining it.

I've acknowledged the fact that it was originally sealed within Shiki Fujin. There is no conflicting evidence that it could been extracted and sealed within Sasuke recently. Most likely just before the Kage summit.

The databook entry can be interpreted in two ways, as I explained to Vane. Post #133.

The whole point of my questions if you bothered to do more then dismiss them out of hand was to show contradictions between your theory and the manga

If you'd bothered to read my previous posts before replying, you wouldn't be asking questions I'd already answered.

Because the Kyuubi cannot be in both the death god AND Sasuke at the same time
Which means it was removed
but you have no way to prove this is the case
This is evidence against your theory

This is argumentum ad ignorantiam. Look at what you just said.

Lack of evidence to support the theory =/= evidence against the theory.

You just completely destroyed yourself by saying that. It matches the definition completely.

Spoiler

The argument from ignorance, also known as argumentum ad ignorantiam ("appeal to ignorance"), or negative evidence, is a logical fallacy in which it is claimed that a premise is true only because it has not been proven false, or is false only because it has not been proven true.

The argument from personal incredulity, also known as argument from personal belief or argument from personal conviction, refers to an assertion that because one personally finds a premise unlikely or unbelievable, the premise can be assumed to be false, or alternatively that another preferred but unproven premise is true instead.

Both arguments commonly share this structure: a person regards the lack of evidence for one view as constituting proof that another view is true. The types of fallacies discussed in this article should not be confused with the reductio ad absurdum method of argument, in which a valid logical contradiction of the form "A and not A" is used to disprove a premise.

ALL the questions were pointing out contradictions and problems with the theory
I have proof for mine

Unanswered questions are not contradictions. Contradictions are pieces of evidence that conflict with the possibility of the theory. Just because we don't know how Sasuke received the Kyuubi (if he did), it does not mean it's not possible.

If you continue with this argumentum ad ignorantiam, I'm not going to reply to your posts. Period.

not good enough
Denying contrary evidence whilst admitting you have none is a weak debate

I'm not denying any evidence because you haven't supplied any. Evidence is manga pages and databook information. You've supplied neither. You've just questioned over and over. You lack proof, so you resort to pointless questioning.

And I have no evidence because this is a theory. I'm not explaining it again.

No
You hold the position
You have a reason why

I hold a contrary position
It is not my job to sustain your position before I attack it
Also I have brought up much in the way of contradicitng evidence which you merely refuse to acknowledge

You've brought up no evidence whatsoever. Questions are not evidence. Give me manga pages and databook information. If you can't, don't reply to my posts. Questions are not evidence, for the last time.

bull
"FACT: Bijuus can manifest is certain pshychological and physiological states which we know Sasuke has been in at various points
So why hasn't it?"
This is not subject to opinion

Which is why I replied to this question in my previous post. Many of the other questions were subject to opinion, which is why I refused to come up with possible answers to them. It's pointless.

All unanswered questions highlight why it DOESN'T look like your position is true

I call bullshit. Unanswered questions =/= evidence against the theory.

99% of your debate is an argument from ignorance.

Yes you are

Quote me where I stated this.

yes there is
You made a claim
Now you support that claim with evidence (I really don;t care what the evidence is)
The evidence either proves your position or not
that is the burden of proof

This would make sense if I actually claimed it to be fact. I didn't. Point killed.

No
Cos then it is useless
Plausible it is
Now do we close the thread?

But then naruto is really His own grandfather (Due to a TSJ) is also plausible

If it were humanly possible to be your own grandfather and there were hints at it, this would actually constitute for some form of a rebuttal. Too bad for you it's an extremely failed comparison.

All of which state a fact

"When did Sasuke receive the Kyuubi?"
"How dd he receive it?"
"Why did he receive it?"

What facts are any of these questions stating?

and how Sasuke doesn't follow that
If he did have a bijuu he would logically show the same outcomes
he doesn't
therefore logically he seems not to have the bijuu

Or maybe, logically, Kishi just doesn't want to reveal it yet. OMG R U SRS?!

not in the slightest
they do have answers

Well then why are you asking them? You're simply questioning because you have no conflicting evidence.

Swing and a miss
I question how he got it because it seems to be in the belly of the death God with no known way to be removed from there

Key word. The fact that a way has not been revealed does not mean it's impossible.

And you questioning me on it gets us nowhere, because I'm not Kishi, therefore I cannot answer it.

Also when he did recieve it is also a factor because then it can restrict or expand the evidence availiable for it

Prior to the Kage summit is a possible and the most likely period of time, as I've explained previously.

Did I say that?
I just said that no reason seems to exist
It seems counterintuitive

That tends to be the case until the mangaka decides to reveal it. /common sense

Because it is supposedly impossible
to suddenly not be impossible requires some pretty damn convincing story

Post #133, my reply to Vane. The databook statement can be interpreted in two ways.

Why
Until you prove your theory it is nothing more then trash
no proof
no reason to even believe it is plausible

I can't prove it because Kishi hasn't supplied proof. If you label something as trash without being presented with supporting evidence, you are very narrow minded. It's both plausible and possible. I've supplied hints at it also. If you still refuse to accept it's plausibility without solid evidence, that's your decision. I don't care.

Not the same
You are arguing something that will happen
not something that HAS happened
She might in the future
but then a lack of evidence there is not evidence against it

Which is exactly the same as this scenario. You've supplied no evidence.

In your next post, if you believe you do have evidence against it, make a list and title it "evidence". You say you've presented some, yet I haven't seen it yet. If you make a title, I might actually be able to see what exactly you regard as 'evidence'.




Okay, I got bored of repeating myself this far in. Give me your questions and we'll go from there.

Haha ok then it remains possible that Naruto will one day take a dump the size of a mountain. He eats a lot so thats a hint. You dont have any evidence that completely disproves it so it is an extremely plausible theory.

Do you see how silly it sounds?

Yes, I see how it sounds silly, because it's a failed comparison. If it was humanly possible for someone to take a dump the size of a mountain, it might have been debatable.

Also you keep pressing this "It can be interpretted a different way" stuff and honestly that works in all cases.

Exactly, which is why it remains a theory.

Yes there are an endless supply of theories that can be made about anything. Even a theory that Naruto has Supermans, Spidermans, Ironmans, Silver Surfer, OAA, Galactus, Living Tribunal, Juubi's and Chuck Norris's powers all rolled into one. Sure I can go dig up a word or comment up that Naruto made that each of those characters have made and that would be a hint right there.

My point is you have to know where to draw a line. If a technique says in the databook that it cant be done then as far as we are concerned it cant be done regardless if Kishi decided to flip shit later.

The databook extract can be interpreted in two ways, therefore it proves nothing.

If it said "Escape and extraction are both impossible", it would be solid evidence against the theory. It fails to do so, and remains dual in its possible meanings.

So if Kishi can twist and flip things to make Sasuke have Kyuubi now then Minato will live again to defeat Madara. My hint is that Minato created the jutsu and would know it better than anyone. Also that he is spending eternity inside the death god meaning he has eternity to create a jutsu on the spot to escape one day. Regardless if the databook said theres no technique doesnt mean there cant be one next chapter and Minato comes back and ass rapes everyone.

That wasn't my debate. Read what I said in post #133 about the different interpretations of the extract.

Now Im sure you can see that was just complete BS. But guess what? You cant prove it wrong and there are hints saying that it is possible so its plausible. Kind of like the idea of Sasuke now mysteriously having half the Kyuubi now.

I'm happy you think it's bullshit. If you're so set on it, why even bother trying to convince me otherwise? If I'm so extremely wrong and destroyed by obvious evidence against my argument, I shouldn't be worth the debating.

I'm happy to receive no replies, as it comes down to individual perspective in the end, until proof is shown in the manga, either for or against it. Debating this remains pointless. Everything that could be debated or explained already has. All the rest is opinion based.

Also lets not forget that Onemanga butchers your guys theory haha. How you used the recent chapter to try and help further your theory. Here I made a post about it I'll quote it here

Spoiler

SHIIIIIIIIIIIITTT!!!1!!11!11

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/489/06/

Spoiler

It says Tonton is a girl there

So now I dont know what to believe >.< I need a really relly big pissed off smiley right about now.

Haha oh and onemanga pretty much butchers the Sasuke having the other half of the Kyuubi in the new chapter.

http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/489/14/

The great toad didnt say "what he is" this time. The great toad said "Who he is" which in my honest opinion sounds like a clearer translation.

Also
http://www.onemanga.com/Naruto/489/13/

"You will fight a boy with power in his eyes, AND THEN..."

Where as here
http://www.narutocentral.com/manga.p...uto&c=489&p=12
It only said "and"

So haha things have been flip flopped depending on where you read your manga

Now I must say one manga pretty much doesnt help the theory to Sasuke and half of the Kyuubi xD

So it comes down to

Who do we believe more? Onemanga who butchers the recent so called "Hints and evidence" or the other that you seem to think help your theory xD (Even though Im positive I know which the pro Sasuke Kyuubi theory people will pick haha)

I'd be more inclined to call it neutral if SleepyFans' translations were as reliable as MangaShare's.

I'm siding with MangaStream's version for that simple reason. MangaShare translations are generally more accurate than SleepFans'. Call it bias or simply 'siding with what supports my debate', as would be expected.

[Smiley]

Plausibility is probabilistic and subjective. All he is saying that it is a logical possibility. How can anyone dispute that?

Personally, I don't find it to be very plausible, but I am not going to start a dozen page long shitstorm because I don't like the theory.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Plausibility is probabilistic and subjective. All he is saying that it is a logical possibility. How can anyone dispute that?

basically just going
Theory? Plausible?
will amount to a one post answer thread which will be a mod going
Yes Plausible now close thread

Just about anything is plausible no matter how idiotic it is
but that is useless as a discussion topic

This is argumentum ad ignorantiam. Look at what you just said.

Actually it wasn't
I posited a problem
you gave no known counter to a supposedly impossible to counter thing (Shiki Fuujin)
And then called it argument from ignorance when I can't explain how it happened
Cos it didn't would be mty answer

Now stop giving this argument from ignorance crap because.....

Spoiler

There are a few types of reasoning which resemble the fallacy of Appeal to Ignorance, and need to be distinguished from it:

1. Sometimes it is reasonable to argue from a lack of evidence for a proposition to the falsity of that proposition, when there is a presumption that the proposition is false. For instance, in American criminal law there is a presumption of innocence, which means that the burden of proof is on the prosecution, and if the prosecution fails to provide evidence of guilt then the jury must conclude that the defendant is innocent. Similarly, the burden of proof is usually on a person making a new or improbable claim, and the presumption may be that such a claim is false. For instance, suppose that I claim that I was taken by flying saucer to another planet, but when challenged I can supply no evidence of this unusual trip. It would not be an Appeal to Ignorance for you to reason that, since there is no evidence that I visited another planet, therefore I probably didn't do so.

Okay, I got bored of repeating myself this far in. Give me your questions and we'll go from there

Original Question
FACT: It needs to be sealed so when did Sasuke have his sealed (This is a timeline issue)
Expanded
I as this because logically it can't be after the Kage summit cos there was no time
Sasuke was rushing around etc

It is evidenced against before the sealing of Oro at the hands of Itachi
We saw how Kyuubi reacted to the sage frog and so it's evil half could be expected to react similarly to Oro's attempted possesion of Sasuke
I can be argued against being there before the fight with Killerbee
Sasuke was in a near death state and yet no indications of any sort of advanced healings or chakra esaping like is always seen with the likes of Naruto
(In fact Sasuke has never shown the same regenerative properties shown b Naruto who is also a kyuubi host)

Do you see the problem
If you take all of that then there does not seem to be a point where Sasuke had it sealed
No Regeneration
No Chakra leaking
Nothing from Karin either as she only sensed Sasukes chakra and yet was able to sense sealed bijuus in their hosts
So timeline wise your first hint was her comment about dark chakra which does not fit how sasuke could have got a bijuu (Due to all the evidence against having it in the Kage summit)

Original Question
FACT: Bijuus can affect their hosts so why haven't we seen ths with Sasuke?
Expanded
Even given the ability of Sasuke to supress it does not seem to have any affect on the other benefits/abilities of a Host
1/Regeneration which Sasuke has never shown
2/increased Chakra, actually it seems Sasukes chakra pool has not gotten bigger and he still relies heavily on external chakra replenishings to continue
3/Drawing on Chakra, All the bijuus candraw upon the chakra of their tailed beasts but Sasuke has not at any time despite where such a feat would be advantageous

none of this is ever seen with Sasuke
original
FACT: Bijuus can manifest is certain pshychological and physiological states which we know Sasuke has been in at various points
So why hasn't it?
Expanded
This one is pretty obvious
In certain physiological and psychological states the bijuus can manifest against the will of the master
Sasuke was in states like these
Near death and exhaustion against Killerbee
Rage and Exhaustion against Danzou
Near Death Against Mizukage and Raikage

Sasuke never showed any indication of the usual demonic reactions
Original
FACT: Bijuus are sealed for a reason. What is Sasukes?
Expanded
Ok this one is pretty simple
Sasuke would have no reason to seal the beast in himself (Especially considering it hates Uchihas and Sasuke has no use for it)
Madara has no use for sealing it in Sasuke as he not only needs that to complete his goal (And so make it one more person to capture for his plan) but it also gives Sasuke a huge bonus is fighting strength and takes away a power from Madara or conversely if it damages Sasuke then Madara has basically just wasted a pawn forno discernable profit
Oro.....as I said before he died he mustn't have or logically he would never have been sealed in Sasuke

original
FACT: Minato sealed the fox using the reaper seal. So how is it now in Sasuke
Expanded
Ok this is a follow from the Previous
Who would even know that the chakra was divided?
Frogs?Jiraiya and Minato? none would do this
Madara? he seems the only likely candidate
Oro beyond his time and so unlikely

So that leaves Madara
but then he needs to cheat death for someone else (The kyuubi)
Considering that it is supposedly impossible then that presents a logical contradiction

[Smiley]

basically just going
Theory? Plausible?
will amount to a one post answer thread which will be a mod going
Yes Plausible now close thread

Just about anything is plausible no matter how idiotic it is
but that is useless as a discussion topic

No, anything is possible no matter how idiotic is. However, when you have at least a tiny bit of circumstantial evidence to support the possibility (such as here), it becomes a stronger possibility and not useless.

"It's possible that there is an invisible pink unicorn orbiting the Earth" would be useless possibility. But, if I provided any kind of logical argument to support it, even if did it not satisfy your standards of evidence, it'd still be more than a useless possibility.

There are a few types of reasoning which resemble the fallacy of Appeal to Ignorance, and need to be distinguished from it:

1. Sometimes it is reasonable to argue from a lack of evidence for a proposition to the falsity of that proposition, when there is a presumption that the proposition is false. For instance, in American criminal law there is a presumption of innocence, which means that the burden of proof is on the prosecution, and if the prosecution fails to provide evidence of guilt then the jury must conclude that the defendant is innocent. Similarly, the burden of proof is usually on a person making a new or improbable claim, and the presumption may be that such a claim is false. For instance, suppose that I claim that I was taken by flying saucer to another planet, but when challenged I can supply no evidence of this unusual trip. It would not be an Appeal to Ignorance for you to reason that, since there is no evidence that I visited another planet, therefore I probably didn't do so. [/SPOILER]

The problem here is that he has evidence (whether you think it is strong or not), you are just demanding STRONGER evidence because you are not satisfied with the evidence he has presented.

Which would be reasonable if he was stating the theory as fact, or even that it is "very likely" to be true, which he is not. You don't think the theory plausible, sure, but if he has any kind of evidence to support it, it is fallacious to claim that it is definitively false just because he can not prove it is definitively true (or prove it beyond a reasonable doubt). He is not making an "improbable claim", he is just saying that it is a logical possibility.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

No, anything is possible no matter how idiotic is. However, when you have at least a tiny bit of circumstantial evidence to support the possibility (such as here), it becomes a stronger possibility and not useless.

"It's possible that there is an invisible pink unicorn orbiting the Earth" would be useless possibility. But, if I provided any kind of logical argument to support it, even if did it not satisfy your standards of evidence, it'd still be more than a useless possibility.

Ok you completely missed the point of what I said
What you said is pretty much true

However a topic merely about whether it is plausible or probable is not a topic for discussion (Because unless it is impossible then the answer will always be "Yes it is possible" and has no further sdiscussion value)
Plausible and Possible yes
but if you do not want anything more then that then the thread becomes pointless

The problem here is that he has evidence (whether you think it is strong or not), you are just demanding STRONGER evidence because you are not satisfied with the evidence he has presented.

This was posted to his accusation of my argument being an argument from ignorance
it has nothing to do with his arguments or their evidence just his claims

Which would be reasonable if he was stating the theory as fact, or even that it is "very likely" to be true, which he is not.

irrelevant
he claimed argument from ignorance
this was my rebuttal of the accusation

You don't think the theory plausible, sure,

on the contrary it is plausible in it's own way
I just don't think it is true given the evience we do have

but if he has any kind of evidence to support it, it is fallacious to claim that it is definitively false just because he can not prove it is definitively true (or prove it beyond a reasonable doubt).

No
you claim it is fallacious but why?
If he cannot prove his side then why is it wrong for me to consider it as non factual? or as not as plausible as current ideas?

He is not making an "improbable claim", he is just saying that it is a logical possibility.

All I ask is how he can support that
ultimately he can't support it if he doesn't have even a slight hint it is true
if he does then he has evidence
If he has evidence then we have a debate

Also the implications of his arguments are such that if I can provide proof of contrary examples then it works against the plausibility of his theory and logically lowers the probability of his theory being correct

eg: Sasuke has the Kyuubi
Kyuubi manifests/arises/appears etc in State X
Sasuke was in State X
No evidence of Kyuubi was found
--Therefore Sasuke probably DOESN'T have the kyuubi

that is the general gist of my rebuttals

[Smiley]

Ok you completely missed the point of what I said
What you said is pretty much true

However a topic merely about whether it is plausible or probable is not a topic for discussion (Because unless it is impossible then the answer will always be "Yes it is possible" and has no further sdiscussion value)
Plausible and Possible yes
but if you do not want anything more then that then the thread becomes pointless

You were saying that any kind of random thought can be considered a "possibility" and therefore, merely saying that it is a possibility is useless and doesn't mean anything in the context of a debate. However, if he has any kind of evidence to support the possibility, then it is not useless.

If you acknowledge the theory is plausible, then what are you arguing about? That it is not definitively true? That it is not likely? The former is obvious, and the latter is entirely subjective. But anyhow, I don't think Jackums wanted anything more than the theory to be acknowledged as plausible.

-snip-

Okay, I misunderstood.

It would have been an argument from ignorance if you said that it was definitively false (as in, one hundred percent with no room for doubt), but if you did not say that, then we have no issues.

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

You were saying that any kind of random thought can be considered a "possibility" and therefore, merely saying that it is a possibility is useless and doesn't mean anything in the context of a debate. However, if he has any kind of evidence to support the possibility, then it is not useless.

Not claiming it is possible
But if the whole purpose of the thread is simply to answer
"Is this possible"
Then the thread has no discussion value if you do not want counterarguments because "You aren't claiming it as fact"

If all you want is the answer of Yes/No then a thread becomes pointless
If you want anything even remotely constituting a debate/discussion then you need to put forward evidence for/against (No matter how frivilous) to ascertain the pluasibility of the argument given the weight of evidence avaliable
And hypothetical answers should be possible given prior knowledge of the manga to give at least tentative predictions about what we should see happening either in past/present/future

If you acknowledge the theory is plausible, then what are you arguing about? That it is not definitively true? That it is not likely? The former is obvious, and the latter is entirely subjective. But anyhow, I don't think Jackums wanted anything more than the theory to be acknowledged as plausible.

I wanted to get him to actually propose his idea
answer the conflicts it produces in the manga and use his theory to give even the most basic of predictions as to what we should see if he is correct

[Yakushi~Kabuto]

karin already knows about kyuubi, she wouldn't be that surprised if the evil she sensed was just kyuubi, so there is only one thing remaining : itachi's power.

[Raikage's left hand]

karin already knows about kyuubi, she wouldn't be that surprised if the evil she sensed was just kyuubi, so there is only one thing remaining : itachi's power.

This is the most likely explanation as to what Karin sensed inside Naruto. The brothers chakra should sense pretty similar.

[Aniki]

Not exactly true. Sasuke's chakra is darker than Itachi's... this is evidenced throughout the last couple dozen chapters or so, especially with his Susano'o looking darker and more evil in appearance in comparison to Itachi's. I don't think she sensed Itachi's gift, since Itachi's chakra isn't evil/dark in nature.

What she sensed was the Kyuubi, and she was comparing its tremendous wicked chakra to Sasuke. This doesn't mean Sasuke has the Kyuubi, it just means that what the Kyuubi said - about his eyes holding chakra more sinister than the Kyuubi's own - was true, and that she can feel that sinister nature to both chakras. Nothing more, nothing less.

@Smiley: Things are only possible if they have a slim chance of actually happening. So far, this theory does not. It has no facts to use as a foundation, and has hundreds of holes which have yet to be addressed. All the evidence its been built upon has been countered, but those counters were never argued... the most logical reason as to why is because they can't.

A theory is only a theory when it is based upon some form of fact, something it can build on to form a hypothesis that - while unproven - makes sense and would explain various other processes we've yet to explain otherwise. This is not based on any facts, nor does it really explain much of anything, thus it can't really be called a theory.

Something is also only possible if it could actually happen. For example, a pink haired man named Larry with a sword made of anti-matter living in space for six years and conquering the universe with his pet rock could never happen, thus it is not possible. What with the Kyuubi still inside of Shiki Fuujin with no hope of being set free, and no evidence to suggest otherwise, that is not possible, either.

Show me where it is suggested that A: It is possible to escape/extract from Shiki Fuujin B: It is actually out and using Sasuke as a host and C: When this all took place, because there is no time as of yet, and THEN we'll talk about whether or not this theory is possible/plausible. But as it stands, Manga Fact seems to be completely against that idea.

Add in the fact that there's no way Madara would know of this technique in the first place, and that an extraction has not yet been evidenced (among other things I don't feel like rementioning for the umpteenth time), and the whole theory of "Sasuke has part of the Kyuubi" is completely shot down, unless actual counter-arguments are formed to show why it is still somehow possible.

Now, with Kabuto joining Madara, I'm sure Kabuto knows about Shiki Fuujin from Orochimaru, and that he'll eventually tell Madara about the technique. However, Kabuto and Oro still wouldn't know that half the Kyuubi was sealed within, so even if Madara knew of the technique, it wouldn't be of much use for him unless he somehow found out that half of the Kyuubi was stuck inside.