Itachi vs. Madara (OFFICIAL THREAD)

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Originally Posted by MinatoNamikaze

One major reason Itachi wouldnt have made a move? Because as great as Itachi is, he couldnt take on the whole of akatsuki alone. Noone could.

However his fight with Sasuke basically showed he had no qualms about dying to achieve his goals.
If he was so willing to die why not do it taking out Madara and as many Akatsuki members as possible?

If madara was strong enough, he would simply killed itachi, revealed the fact that he helped kill the uchiha and sasuke woulda still went after him and obtained EMS when he took Itachis eyes (who he woulda hated)

2 points
1/If Madara killed Itachi then he wouldn't have gotten Sasuke.
If Madara truly didn't want Itachi he could simply have excluded him from Akatsuki and been done with him
No For Madara the best thing was to keep Itachi near by.
2/Sasuke would never have got EMS (Cos he never had MS) and would never have gone after Madara either.
Remember that the information regarding Madara came from Madara himself who admitted his part in the massacre.
If Itachi was killed straight away then Sasuke would have lost all reason to even try to go after any akatsuki member and I doubt Madara would ahve had any reason to pursue him (Or had much better tacts to try).

Its a very complicated matter, but i beleive Itachi and Madara were playing a very tactful game of chess inwhich Itachi will ultimatly win

No
Itachi will help but Ultimately Naruto and Sasuke will be the ones to win where all others fail.

[MinatoNamikaze]

However his fight with Sasuke basically showed he had no qualms about dying to achieve his goals.
If he was so willing to die why not do it taking out Madara and as many Akatsuki members as possible?

I meant that Itachi would not be able to take out Madara while fighting Hidan, kakuzu, deidara, Sasori, Kisame, etc.

2 points
1/If Madara killed Itachi then he wouldn't have gotten Sasuke.
If Madara truly didn't want Itachi he could simply have excluded him from Akatsuki and been done with him
No For Madara the best thing was to keep Itachi near by.
2/Sasuke would never have got EMS (Cos he never had MS) and would never have gone after Madara either.
Remember that the information regarding Madara came from Madara himself who admitted his part in the massacre.
If Itachi was killed straight away then Sasuke would have lost all reason to even try to go after any akatsuki member and I doubt Madara would ahve had any reason to pursue him (Or had much better tacts to try).

Actually thats not valid because Madara wants sasuke for his eyes. He coulda simply killed Itachi, held onto his eyes, told sasuke the truth, made sasuke angery at him, and sasuke woulda killed naruto and then taken Itachis eyes and had EMS. Much simpiler

No
Itachi will help but Ultimately Naruto and Sasuke will be the ones to win where all others fail.

Actually, naruto/sasuke will only be able to win in the end BECAUSE of itachis efforts. Just watch and youll see

[NaruxHina_4_Ever]

Originally Posted by MinatoNamikaze

I meant that Itachi would not be able to take out Madara while fighting Hidan, kakuzu, deidara, Sasori, Kisame, etc.

However.
Itachi can fix it so that he fights an enemy alone.
Why could he not fix it so he was alone with an "ally"?
Plus he had the time during and just after the massacre to do something to Madara and how many years after that?

Actually thats not valid because Madara wants sasuke for his eyes. He coulda simply killed Itachi, held onto his eyes, told sasuke the truth, made sasuke angery at him, and sasuke woulda killed naruto and then taken Itachis eyes and had EMS. Much simpiler

Why would Sasuke kill Naruto here?
The truth even now does not lead Sasuke to the path of killing Naruto?

Actually, naruto/sasuke will only be able to win in the end BECAUSE of itachis efforts. Just watch and youll see

He is one of many pieces of the puzzle along with the Forth, Kakashi, Jiraiya, Fukusaku, Oro even to name a few who all helped both Naruto and Sasuke achieve it.

[vane]

One major reason Itachi wouldnt have made a move? Because as great as Itachi is, he couldnt take on the whole of akatsuki alone. Noone could.

Itachi found Madara. Madara never came out and said he was Madara also, so if Itachi had the ability to kill Madara he could have an no one would have known or cared in the Akatsuki besides Pein and Pein wouldnt even know since Madara (disguised as Tobi) wouldnt have been found since Itachi found him meaning he had alone time with Madara and could have killed him. Thats all there is to it.

If madara was strong enough, he would simply killed itachi,

No because Itachi was still helping Madara regardless

1.Helped slow down Kakashi and co.
2. Helped capture the 4 tails

those were major assets to Madara.

revealed the fact that he helped kill the uchiha and sasuke woulda still went after him and obtained EMS when he took Itachis eyes (who he woulda hated)

No because if he had killed Itachi earlier he wouldnt have got the help Itachi provided the whole time. And if he killed him earlier it would have been Sasuke wouldnt have cared and came all that way since Itachi was already dead. He could have seaked out Madara to find out but then the fight with Itachi and Sasuke wouldnt have taken place and helped Sasuke realize these things. Sasuke wouldnt have got MS.

Its a very complicated matter,

Only to the people trying to defend Itachi in this thread

but i beleive Itachi and Madara were playing a very tactful game of chess inwhich Itachi will ultimatly win

You might be right but if Itachi could have killed him earlier he would have is the point.

[MinatoNamikaze]

Itachi found Madara. Madara never came out and said he was Madara also, so if Itachi had the ability to kill Madara he could have an no one would have known or cared in the Akatsuki besides Pein and Pein wouldnt even know since Madara (disguised as Tobi) wouldnt have been found since Itachi found him meaning he had alone time with Madara and could have killed him. Thats all there is to it.

HOWEVER, neither of them knew the others full potential. Madara never reveale all his secrets adn neither did itachi. It woulda been to risky for either of them to make a move because the course of history and the destiny of the world relied on the actions of those 2 individuals.

No because Itachi was still helping Madara regardless

1.Helped slow down Kakashi and co.
2. Helped capture the 4 tails

those were major assets to Madara.

Actually its a negative. Madara knew Itachi wouldnt harm them. If he wanted to get rid of them, he woulda sent sasori or kisame or someone after them, not a spy.

No because if he had killed Itachi earlier he wouldnt have got the help Itachi provided the whole time. And if he killed him earlier it would have been Sasuke wouldnt have cared and came all that way since Itachi was already dead. He could have seaked out Madara to find out but then the fight with Itachi and Sasuke wouldnt have taken place and helped Sasuke realize these things. Sasuke wouldnt have got MS.

However he coulda still had sasuke on his side by revealing all the truth. Sasuke woulda still been just as pissed off.

Only to the people trying to defend Itachi in this thread

You might be right but if Itachi could have killed him earlier he would have is the point.

This was adressed above. It was too risky for either of the titans to make a move

[vane]

HOWEVER, neither of them knew the others full potential.

Potential smotential, they both knew that Madara was stronger. Madara knew he was stronger but used Itachi to gain the little things. Itachi knew Madara was stronger so he didnt attempt to kill him but to join his group and help from the inside.

If he wanted to get rid of them, he woulda sent sasori or kisame or someone after them, not a spy.

Madara knew Itachi would still at least slow them down regardless. That was all Madara wanted was to slow them down so the extraction could finish.

However he coulda still had sasuke on his side by revealing all the truth.

No because Sasuke wouldnt have believed it all had that fight with Sasuke and Itachi not taken place. Sasuke only realized Madara was telling the truth by events in that fight. He realized when Madara said it that Itachi had chances to finish him and he only realized it then. Sasuke wouldnt have been up for Madara had Itachi and Sasuke not fought.

Sasuke woulda still been just as pissed off.

Of course but in that event when Sasuke didnt believe Madara he would have attempted to kill him and Madara would have either fled so he didnt have to kill Sasuke or he would have killed him. Either way without that necessary fight between Sasuke and Itachi, Sasuke wouldnt have joined or believed Madara.

To be honest the thing I think that made Sasuke realize Madara was telling the truth was during that fight Itachi had Sasuke in a corner, and Sasuke knew he was finished but Itachi only poked his forehead. I think thats what made Sasuke realize Madara was telling the truth about Itachi rigging that fight and realize he was telling the truth.

This was adressed above. It was too risky for either of the titans to make a move

No I think they both knew that Madara was stronger. But I do think they were playing a game of chess with each other xD

[Nikushimi]

Originally Posted by vane

Then its only complicating to you then

No, it's simply complicated, that's a fact. There's nothing simple or direct about this issue, otherwise, it would have been resolved already.

How so then? Itachi wanted Sasuke to hate him. If Sasuke hated Itachi (like Itachi wanted and led Sasuke to) then he cant get MS that way. Meaning Itachi's intentions couldnt have been to awaken Sasuke's MS. Madara's word doesnt add up to the story at hand. Theres proof against Madara. And just like you said Itachi plausibly could have but like you said its only plausible, not fact. Theres more facts against Madara saying that. Itachi couldnt have done all that to awaken Sasuke's MS since he made Sasuke hate him his whole life. Itachi was a good guy he didnt want Sasuke to turn around and attack Konoha.

And yet Itachi accounted for all of these things, and Madara makes it clear that Itachi died to give Sasuke Mangekyou Sharingan. We also don't know...that Sasuke NEEDED to end up loving Itachi in order to awaken the power...since all that's stated is that it needs to be the person closest to him...which could be made valid through emotions that are negative rather than positive, for all we know. And who's to say...Sasuke didn't feel a tinge of regret for having to kill his own brother anyway? The whole thing was...just a mess.

Leaking little secrets that didnt have no big effect on Akatsuki? Yeah those are minor insignificance's compared to Itachi's overall help to the group itself. Its all about which outweighs the other and Madara obviously seen that Itachi's help outweighed Itachi leaking a few minor secrets. Also gaining Sasuke in turn.

All your baseless opinion. We don't know what these secrets were or how significant they were.

Nope he also helped with

1.Bringing Sasuke to Madara
2.Slowing down team Kakashi from saving Gara
3.Helping in the capture of the 4 tailed Bijuu
4.Gathering info for Akatsuki
5. and helping with the extraction.

All of those especially the first one are the big counters that outweighed Itachi leaking a little info that Madara seen and took advantage of.

Again, mostly just your opinion or interpretation.

1. This was against Itachi's wishes, completely.
2. He arguably threw that fight to let them pass, hence his smile.
3. He didn't help; Kisame fought it alone.
4. We don't know what info this was or whether or not he gave them any missinformation along with it.
5. Again, this is the only truly morally ambiguous issue with Itachi.

Also dont forget that Madara hid things from Itachi also like you said, meaning he possibly hid the major things from Itachi since he knew Itachi was a spy, so he didnt tell Itachi the major stuff and only gave Itachi Insignificant information to be leaked.

This is all just speculation. Kishimoto implies it in such a way that we're supposed to give Itachi a little more credit than that; the situation was essentially Itachi and Madara with guns pointed at eachothers' heads.

He helped in the 4 tails capture.

No, no, and no. Kisame stated he fought it alone.

And that smiling can be taken more than one way. To me it showed that the whole time he was merely playing with them and for them to have defeated him and thought they accomplished something in there lifes he thought the idea of that was funny.

He doesn't typically smile over stuff like that. He usually smiles when he's hinting at something...like when he smiled at Naruto for vowing to save Sasuke AND the village...or when he smiled at Sasuke when he mentioned that Itachi wasn't alone during the Uchiha massacre. It's Itachi's...telltale way of saying "Exacta!" It may not specifically be the case here, but it is the most obvious implication.

Itachi would not...smile at an act of futility on their part. Just wouldn't be in-character for him, especially the way Kishi portrayed it.

And the more logical for that smile is that it was only thrown in as plot. Like when Naruto hit him with a suped up Rasengan the author showed the smile to show that something wasnt right about the situation. That smile had no role on the story and how Itachi thought.

Actually, that's EXACTLY why it had a role; it was implying that something was up, and Naruto even bothered to question it afterwards. From a literary standpoint, that's what you'd call a "plant." No, not the kind with leaves on it. The kind that is meant to hint at something in the future, like in this case, the revelation that Itachi was actually on their side.

Of course he threw it. He was only slowing team Kakashi down from saving Gara. That was the whole purpose. He probably knew his and Kisame's shouten wouldnt win but was only to slow the group down.

So he threw the fight and made it look like a believable loss...instead of having his Shouten fight until they killed it on their own. That was the best he could do. He couldn't just...have it give up...or trip over its own feet and land on Kakashi's Raikiri. That would be too obvious.

How so? Madara still got Sasuke.

Madara's having a little difficulty controlling Sasuke, in case you haven't noticed; things aren't going quite his way.

And it's pretty obvious that Naruto's eventually going to save Sasuke as per Itachi's wishes, so why even bother with this point? Madara is only "winning" for the time being. It ain't over.

well Im not hoping for that but I am hoping for him to come out hella stonger and a power to be reckoned with for our heroine to have to face down and defeat xD lol

If he doesn't...I will be pissed. He's too epic not to...and plus, there's really no other way he can compete with the current top tiers.

[vane]

No, it's simply complicated, that's a fact. There's nothing simple or direct about this issue, otherwise, it would have been resolved already.

xD an oxymoron lol simply complicated . But its not resolved because people like you looking for any reason to hype Itachi more than what he is keeps making it more complicating.

And yet Itachi accounted for all of these things, and Madara makes it clear that Itachi died to give Sasuke Mangekyou Sharingan

1.Yes Itachi accounted for it, but he didnt want Sasuke to meet Madara. If Sasuke wouldnt have met Madara he wouldnt have got MS. So umm yeah
2.Madara may or may not be lying to Sasuke to manipulate him so he will help him.

that Sasuke NEEDED to end up loving Itachi in order to awaken the power...since all that's stated is that it needs to be the person closest to him...which could be made valid through emotions that are negative rather than positive, for all we know. And who's to say...Sasuke didn't feel a tinge of regret for having to kill his own brother anyway? The whole thing was...just a mess.

Because its been stated to be a best friend that has to die more than once. Also Itachi had Sasuke hate him thats what he wanted. Itachi didnt want Madara to confront Sasuke so he set up a way to try and prevent it. Madara is the reason Sasuke got MS for making Sasuke feel like he killed a best friend.

All your baseless opinion. We don't know what these secrets were or how significant they were.

So is everything you brought up only mine makes more sense. Point is they had to be significant since Madara addressed them as secrets that could have beat himself. Those are very significant secrets regardless how you look at it.

Again, mostly just your opinion or interpretation.

Same to you

1. This was against Itachi's wishes, completely.
2. He arguably threw that fight to let them pass, hence his smile.
3. He didn't help; Kisame fought it alone.
4. We don't know what info this was or whether or not he gave them any missinformation along with it.
5. Again, this is the only truly morally ambiguous issue with Itachi.

1.Exactly. They were against Itachi's wishes completely so he set up a way to avoid that. But Madara outsmarted him and got Sasuke regardless. Case closed.
2. Stop bringing up a pointless smile. It was to show it was a fake Itachi at that moment. He couldnt win against the group he was only use to slow them down which he did. Case closed.
3.He was there as precaution he would have helped. If not he would have stopped Kisame which he damn sure didnt do that so he was helping Madara regardless. Case closed.
4.Madara said Itachi didnt know some things or Itachi would have beat Madara. Madara said that himself. Case closed.
5.Yet another thing he helped for Madara.

This is all just speculation. Kishimoto implies it in such a way that we're supposed to give Itachi a little more credit than that; the situation was essentially Itachi and Madara with guns pointed at eachothers' heads.

No Kishimoto doesnt imply anything just because you say so. Madara is clearly the smarter. And its not just speculation you said yourself Madara hid things from Itachi. He hid the parts to where Itachi's plan would have worked but it didnt which means Madara hid major things from Itachi.

No, no, and no. Kisame stated he fought it alone.

Itachi was there and would have helped if needed. If not then why didnt he stop Kisame himself? He could have beat Kisame and covered it up by planning with the 4 tails. But he stood on watching and let Kisame take out the 4 tails.

He doesn't typically smile over stuff like that.

It was a fake Itachi. The smile was to portray that it was a fake Itachi before it was actually revealed it was a fake Itachi thats all. See your making things more complicating than what they are and heres one part especially. You over complicate things that are obvious

He usually smiles when he's hinting at something

He did. He hinted he was a fake Itachi at that moment. Since we didnt know he was fake, he smiled hinting he was a fake before it was revealed.

like when he smiled at Naruto for vowing to save Sasuke AND the village...or when he smiled at Sasuke when he mentioned that Itachi wasn't alone during the Uchiha massacre. It's Itachi's...telltale way of saying "Exacta!" It may not specifically be the case here, but it is the most obvious implication.

Again your over complications to a smile that was just to show it was a fake Itachi.

Itachi would not...smile at an act of futility on their part. Just wouldn't be in-character for him, especially the way Kishi portrayed it.

Your also not Kishi to say why he made him do something. And he did smile to hint something. He smiled to hint he was a fake Itachi.

Actually, that's EXACTLY why it had a role; it was implying that something was up, and Naruto even bothered to question it afterwards. From a literary standpoint, that's what you'd call a "plant." No, not the kind with leaves on it. The kind that is meant to hint at something in the future, like in this case, the revelation that Itachi was actually on their side.

Yeah like it was a fake Itachi. And it was revealed at the end of the chapter that he was fake. End of role with the smile.

So he threw the fight and made it look like a believable loss...instead of having his Shouten fight until they killed it on their own.

He slowed down team Kakashi right? Thats all he had to do. Thats it. Thats all. No more.

Madara's having a little difficulty controlling Sasuke, in case you haven't noticed; things aren't going quite his way.

Oh really?

1. Sasuke went to the Kage summit and fought with all the Kages
2. Sasuke awakened his Susanoo
3. Sasuke went to capture the 8 tails like Madara told him to

Things seem to be going pretty smoothly for Madara with Sasuke. He didnt act unimpressed when he went to save Sasuke from the Kage summit.

And it's pretty obvious that Naruto's eventually going to save Sasuke as per Itachi's wishes,

Yes an extra precaution he took in case what he did before didnt stop Madara from getting to Sasuke.

If he doesn't...I will be pissed. He's too epic not to...and plus, there's really no other way he can compete with the current top tiers.

Agreed here so far